Special Episode: Live Career Counseling Session. In this episode, MJ shares the crossroads she's facing in her career and educational goals. You'll get to hear a career counseling session where we dive deep into academia and the differences between an EdD or PhD while navigating the complexities of a quarter-life crisis. Armine guides the session with questions on mentorship, external validation, and personal ambition to help MJ process this big decision.
The episode culminates with a candid discussion on the emotional and practical implications of choosing between a PhD and an EdD. MJ deliberates over the impact of such transformative decisions on a two-income household, contemplating potential pay adjustments and the broader consequences of each educational path. We also ponder the nuances of representation within academia and the tangible effects of our work beyond the confines of educational accolades. Join us for a deep dive into the soul of career counseling, where deliberate thought meets the courage to pursue one's true calling.
CareeRise: www.careerrise.org
CareerConfidence: www.mjcareerconfidence.com
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Special Episode: Live Career Counseling Session. In this episode, MJ shares the crossroads she's facing in her career and educational goals. You'll get to hear a career counseling session where we dive deep into academia and the differences between an EdD or PhD while navigating the complexities of a quarter-life crisis. Armine guides the session with questions on mentorship, external validation, and personal ambition to help MJ process this big decision.
The episode culminates with a candid discussion on the emotional and practical implications of choosing between a PhD and an EdD. MJ deliberates over the impact of such transformative decisions on a two-income household, contemplating potential pay adjustments and the broader consequences of each educational path. We also ponder the nuances of representation within academia and the tangible effects of our work beyond the confines of educational accolades. Join us for a deep dive into the soul of career counseling, where deliberate thought meets the courage to pursue one's true calling.
CareeRise: www.careerrise.org
CareerConfidence: www.mjcareerconfidence.com
Follow Us on IG!
Follow Us on LinkedIn:
Hello everyone, welcome back to Coffee and Career Hour.
Speaker 2:I'm nervous to be here because I'm in the hot seat today.
Speaker 1:Oh snap, yeah. Why don't you tell our listeners why you're saying that so?
Speaker 2:after what? January? I kind of been having like a quarter life crisis in my life and I am trying to identify what the next step for me is. Not that I'm seeking more opportunity just educationally. I think I'm ready for something more and I have a lot more to grow and learn in my role and in everything I do. But I think MJ is ready to go back to school.
Speaker 1:That is so exciting, yeah, yeah. So what we wanted to do today for all of our listeners is kind of do like a sample career counseling session and have a conversation to help you process the different types of programs you're considering.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I will say to you well, I'll let you get started, because you're the career counselor and I'm your client today. This is going to be really hard for me.
Speaker 1:We could also you could also do like a pause and share your thoughts as a counselor too, absolutely Okay, so let's get started. Hi, I'm Jair. Hi Arminay, thank you for sharing a little bit about what you're going through right now. Tell me a little bit about what sparked this. Where did it all start from?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I want to acknowledge that this is not a thought I just had within the last couple months when I left grad school. It was something I knew I wanted to come back to. However, I was unsure of what type of program to do. So what do I mean by program? I mean doctoral program, because I really have a master's degree. I was nervous about doctoral programs because I am first gen and no one I knew was doing one. I mean only what I saw online and my professors right, but they're like amazing accomplished people that I didn't see myself being compared to. So the idea kind of started when I was finishing grad school because I was again scared to go out into the workforce and all those other things. I didn't apply to grad school and started working and then kind of ever since then been working, and it wasn't until a couple months ago where I started to really think about what's next for.
Speaker 2:MJ and where do I want to go, and who do I want to be and what do I want to be in my life?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it sounds like it's something that has been on your mind, but it reemerged itself a couple months ago. What happened a couple months ago in your life that made you kind of start rethinking about this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, one. I think a big factor is that my fiance is in a PhD program. So seeing him being a Latino male first gen like an R1, really just like seeing his experience, I was like whoa, like that's very different. He's in the STEM fields, right, so it's very different from education or counseling or psychology and the social sciences. So seeing him go through that process twice I'm sorry, fiance, that I'm sharing your story on here, but he got rejected the first round and the second time he got into grad school because now he had a master's degree, he was way more prepared. So seeing him kind of start that process this past fall and almost finish his first year was one of the things and thinking about like where is he going to go and what does he want to do?
Speaker 2:And MJ was starting to think about like oh, I've been in my role for almost two years now, I've been teaching for two years now and have done some remarkable things in a short amount of time and I'm feeling like where do I want to go next? And I was asked actually, where do you want to go next? And I sat there and said I don't know. And that is kind of what sparked the thought process, like the mind map in my head, of like what do I want to do? Who do I want to be? What do I want to accomplish?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it sounds like it's something that's also natural to you in terms of planning and wanting to make intentional steps toward your future Absolutely, so this is a natural thing that MJ does, and having someone close to you in your life who's going through that process, I think has maybe had influence on you right now. But you did mention that you thought about a post master's programs, doctoral programs when you were finishing up your master's. What stopped you then from applying?
Speaker 2:I was so when I would share. So I'm somebody who I like to hear other people's thoughts like on what I do, right, because they know better than I did meaning and who do? I mean? Whether people are like my mentors, the people who are close to me, colleagues and stuff like that. I like to kind of like have them, like you, be my sounding board right To some of the thoughts and knots that I'm having in the career world.
Speaker 2:And when I was talking about like a post, like a post master's and getting a master's in like higher education, because I was like, oh, my degree is in counseling and I'm a really great counselor, but the politics side of higher ed, the history of higher ed, I don't know that stuff. Like, I know that stuff through experience, which is good, right. And I had many of those people tell me like why are you going to go get another master's degree when you can get a doctorate degree? Because you already know that stuff through experience and you don't need another master's degree. Just go get the doctorate degree and you'll be done. And I was like, okay, and then there's another fork in the road what doctorate degree do I do? And then again, we're going to get specific in education. Mj wants a doctorate in education, so she's thinking an Edd, or do I do a PhD? And that opened up a whole can of worms.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, it's interesting that you share that. You really kind of look to your mentors and people in your life, who whose opinions you value. So in that process, what are some of the different messages that you've been getting, now that you've been talking to folks?
Speaker 2:It's really interesting to see. So I will say to like I as much as I preach, like well, the authenticity is true to who I am now. I've grown up a lot in the last and being in my career, but I deep deep down like have major and posture syndrome. Major, like I don't see myself the way other people. When people tell me, like you're so accomplished and you've done so much and you should be really proud of yourself, Like there's something in me that just doesn't see it. Like I can't look in the mirror and see the same person. You see harmony, it's different.
Speaker 2:It's so weird where I and and it's not like a, it's so strange to explain because I don't know how to like say like I don't see what you guys say. Like I can see the work that I do and when I tell people and I share it with people, they're like expressions are so grand, right. Like, wow, like you are doing a first gen program at UCLA and it's a whole initiative for like 10,000 soon. I'm like yeah, and for me it's like yeah, it was just an idea in my brain and I made it come to life. You know, like it wasn't. For me, it doesn't feel as large as it is for others and when I start to share my ideas with others, I'm sorry, I get different messages right? So, and that was your question specifically, I had to give you some context to something specific. But I get messages like from two ends of the spectrum where some individuals and then in really even relation to the program.
Speaker 2:So either they're really excited about me taking the next step or I'll get like a little bit of question of like are you ready to take the next step? What does that look like for you? What does that mean for you? Does it have to be in getting another degree? So there's that kind of spectrum and then I get the spectrum of are you thinking about an EDD or you're thinking about a PhD? If you're thinking about an EDD, don't do that. Do a PhD because of this and this reason. Or listen I get the listen to what your inner self is saying and if your heart and your mind and your values line with a PhD and the more practical side of you is there, go with an EDD. Yeah, and it's so hard because I look at these people and I'm like you're amazing. Like most of them do have PhDs, a few of them do have EDDs and I get excited when I talk to both yeah and it's.
Speaker 2:I can tell you a little bit about how I started even going about that, because navigating my timeline, what do I want that to look like? And I think just a recent you know recently turning 25 for me was huge One. I didn't have two of the most main people in my life be around me, so that hurt. I had to navigate what 25 years and my frontal lobe being in full effect meant. But it also, I think it put me in a mode where it's almost like a camera lens. There was a different lens put and I started to think critically about how old am I going to be in five years if I did a PhD in an EDD and be three years and what I want to be accomplished?
Speaker 2:And you know, as women we have internal ticking biology where we have to do things at a certain age if we want certain things. You know it was referring to children. So that kind of came to my mind and do I want to be doing this job for the next two to five years? And if so, how am I going to be able to do that? If so, how do I am? How am I going to grow if I have the same title doing the same things, if I've grown so much in two years?
Speaker 2:So I know there was a lot to unpack, but like that's kind of where the conversations go when I get those different opinions in the spectrum is like well, if you do an EDD, what do you want to do? If you do a PhD, where can you go? So everybody always is going to give me a set like a different opinion, and they're going to and like pausing red as a counselor. People give you their opinions because that's what they know best and they give you that opinion because they're like I want the best for you, so I'm going to give you what I think is best for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so as a very subjective yeah.
Speaker 2:So internalizing that. For me, being on the other end of the desk, it's hard because I'm like, dang, this person is in a counselor, it's a constant switch, because I'm like this person's only telling me what they know is best. Yeah, but they're not MJ, they don't have to think about all the thing MJ's have to think about, like all these other things, right? So long story short.
Speaker 1:Okay. So what I heard in part of the story you were sharing is that a doctorate degree is actually can always been in the picture Well, at least since you were in your grad program. So it's almost undeniable that you're going to get a doctorate degree.
Speaker 2:That's what I'm hearing.
Speaker 1:The question is which program is the right fit for you? And you mentioned, you know, having different opinions shared from your mentors and so forth. I'm wondering has it been helpful or has it been more confusing having having these conversations with different folks?
Speaker 2:I want to say it's been helpful. So it's been helpful to hear their support. It's been helpful to feel reassured that, no matter what I do, people are going to still be in my corner. Because, going back to internally how I feel, I feel like, depending on what I choose, I'm going to be a disappointment to some because they're going to be like, wow, like we thought you were really going to go this way, sure, and you didn't. So you're doing that and I guess we'll be proud of you, you know. So I I almost feel like I'm not good enough, in a sense, if I pick one over the other. And I feel it being confusing when I have people who are like well, you can do either and you'll be fine, or like I'll support you no matter what, or do what you want to do, and I'm like that's not helpful, like that's more confusing to me. Where I find the most clarity and then which, in result, is also confusing too but where I've, where I'm finding the most clarity, is sitting with people who have actually done the program or or our, or are in the program. So what I've done is kind of said to myself like you're going to take three months, or like in month one. We're about to finish month one. Two heavily researched these programs and you're going to meet with people who are in the program and recently graduated, because I also want to see that effect too. And then, pausing, as a counselor, it's really helpful to do informational interviews to understand what you want to do and how that looks in that Because, again coming back to client MJ, I have to think about my full time job.
Speaker 2:I have a salary with benefits and I'm able to live in Southern California. If I do one program, it's fully funded, that's half my like. Well, I mean, I have to look at it right. Like how much am I going to get paid? Like less than 40 grand for a fully funded program. Or I do an Edd, right, and that's almost $100,000. That comes out of pocket and loans.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So let's talk about what's going on internally, because there is a little bit of I'm hearing, a little bit of like needing to I don't want to say people, please, but validation. You're needing that validation from your mentors. So, whichever side they're rooting for, I think that kind of sways you one way or the next. It's great that you're doing informational interviews so you could actually hear people's experiences, but the needing validation from your mentors, I think, is really I'm hearing that it's really actually getting in the way of you making this decision.
Speaker 2:It's messing with my head a lot because and I'll tell you, I haven't spoken to all of them yet and I would say I'm speaking to the ones that I have more access to, so I'm able to like communicate with them on a weekly basis.
Speaker 2:But there's some that I still want to sit down and it's interesting because you, you know, these people have seen me grow and like, become like, go from an undergrad to grad and to a professional, or from grads or professional or like, saw me start as a professional to now, and it is there's almost like in the and.
Speaker 2:So one of my strengths is harmony. I don't like conflict. So of course, I'm not going to like want conflict between me and my mentor and know that there's the underlying feeling of them not feeling super proud of me if I do this, which is strange and I think can go back to like my relationship with my mom and like how I never felt good enough, like no matter what I did, or there was always something I could improve on, and I think I carry that into my work. So, with my mentors, yeah, there is that validation of like I want them to feel, feel proud of whatever I choose, even though, at the end of the day, they're still going to be there. Yeah, so it's, it's, it's I think I'm dealing with. Like, what does that mean for me?
Speaker 1:Yeah well, you understand that logically, but emotionally you're you're not. That's not resonating right. My question to you is what's the worst that can happen? Let's say one of your mentors doesn't fully agree with the path you take. What's the worst?
Speaker 2:Logically, that's not on me, that's on them. Like as a counselor, that's what I would tell myself, right? Like that's not on you, dude, like that's on them. And then, realistically, what could happen is they get over it and they're still proud of MJ, no matter what she does.
Speaker 1:Let's say they're not proud of you. Just, you know to play devil's advocate.
Speaker 2:Then I grow from that situation and learn how to manage that relationship and maybe the mentor just becomes someone that isn't in the conversation. When it comes to that part of my life, yeah.
Speaker 1:Or maybe also consider what does a mentor mean to you Absolutely, and is that person the right fit now? Maybe they were once yeah Right, previous version of MJ, but you've grown, you've evolved and your mentors might have to evolve as well, because your needs are changing. So you might want to consider what a mentor actually. That's my question to you what is a mentor to you?
Speaker 2:That's a big question and you know what's funny, I didn't even know that I had a mentor until they told me like, oh, yeah, like I love being your mentor and I'm like, oh, is that what this is? So I think it's somebody who. So for me it's somebody who, no matter what, like whatever situation I'm in, will listen. One. It's like a counseling skill, right. So one, they'll listen and they'll listen to the whole story and they're gonna listen to why. Whatever is happening is happening from my lens, from my perspective. The other thing, too, is somebody for a mentor. For me is somebody who supports me and can be understanding and empathetic to whatever's happening. So I mean a lot of counseling skills. Here is also somebody who can advise me, and not give me advice, but advise and guide. That's important for me is not somebody to tell me what to do, but more so like, okay, let's go through the pros and cons. I think it's somebody I can see that can move with me and not just be there at different stages like stagnant, evolve with me as well.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, and in the beginning of our session, you actually shared that some of the folks you've had conversations with are giving you their opinions based on what they know, so that doesn't really match the definition of mentor that you just shared. So something to think about, right, Because it seems to me like that is really stopping you from being able to clearly make a decision about EdD versus PhD. So that's like what's going on on the inside of MJ the seeking validation from people who are important to you right.
Speaker 1:The other side of it is now you are learning about both programs and the differences, the pros and the cons, and you're doing all the things that we tell our listeners to do right and the informational interviews. So tell me a little bit about which way you're swayed right now, based on all of the information that you have.
Speaker 2:That's a really tough question, because just yesterday I met with somebody who's finishing their PhD program in education this year, and so I will say to you I'm and when you and I have talked about this offline, there's a lot of I think, mj stigma around a PhD. I've been putting it on this immense pedestal, like this immense ladder, where it's something that mentally I don't think I'm capable of achieving. Why I can't tell you I'm a good student, I love school. It's this internal thing where I think I'm scared of failing and disappointing and being like well, see, you knew you couldn't do this anyway. It's almost like I need to fail myself to prove that I to myself that I couldn't do it. It's weird. So one is that that's the weird feeling that I had going into this and that in the beginning really did sway my emotions toward it, Cause I'm like, well, if I already feel that way about a PhD, of course I'm not going to want to do that, right? But I was like I'm going to do it anyway to validate my negative feelings towards it. I'm going to do the informational interviews anyway so I can confirm her preconceived notions, right? So what I did was I selected my individuals and different programs, different schools, some were R1, some were not R1s, and I'm not done. I'm not done doing my informational interviews. It's so crazy Cause I feel like a hiring manager, almost Sure, and I'm selecting specific people who've done these programs and I can see, like, where they've grown. And again, I mentioned people in the program and people who are recently graduated, cause I want to see that career transition from in the program to post and then in the program. I want to understand the motions they're going through because they're both very different and an educational.
Speaker 2:So for a PhD, we know it's traditionally five to seven years, right, just depends on how, like how you do it's minimum five years. Two years you're spent taking coursework, you do your exams at the end of year two. You pass, you pass, you go on, you can do your dissertation. There's so many other details that I'm missing out, right, but there's that whole idea of for MJ, it was like damn, that's five years, one, right One. And then there's this gigantic research project that you have to do. I also know what I would research to, which is a whole other set. No, for an EdD and a PhD, five years it's in anything, right. So it's research based, it's research focused and EdD is a little bit more of a practical degree where you're getting so the same doctorate in education but it's more focused on like administrative type of things. But you can't take it as far in academia as a PhD, sure Right. So when you think of an EdD more like student affairs or administrative, in K through 12 or working in like a school system.
Speaker 2:So the other thing I wanted to focus on were people who are in higher ed and even some who are in K through 12. And then for a PhD, I was looking at also people's research and what they're researching and where and how that process went. So, going in there with the fear of a PhD, I went in and foe and I read an EdD person first, somebody who just graduated last year. He was like 10 out of 10, like the most amazing person and I remember like just feeling so excited and you know, cute little me, I had like my list of questions, I knew exactly what I was going to ask and I also picked a person who had my same master's degree because I wanted to ask about the feelings of how our master's degree prepared them for this program, knowing that it's also research oriented, because in an EdD you still have to do a dissertation right, still research project. It's not exactly research focused, though, just like a PhD. So that's one of the main differences. And it's three years, so it's the last time. So think about it as an EdD is a little bit more practical and a PhD is a lot more logical. It's more research oriented, academia focused. Both you can take into education. So I went with the EdD first, loved it. I was hanging off of every word this person was saying and was like this sounds amazing.
Speaker 2:The biggest thing that drew my attention was that I could do the EdD with a full time job so I could work nine to five, nine to four, because if I have class at five then I'm in classroom five PM to nine PM and I could also still teach. So MJ wouldn't have to necessarily sacrifice any of the things she's doing. I mean, I maybe have to tone it down a little bit right To fit in like papers and readings and class and all that. But that was one of the main things I was looking at. And he had a great experience. He loved the school. He went to an R1. He really enjoyed the cohort and the faculty and the care. So I was like this is awesome and for me it's also what matches my career goals. That's the other thing too. I'll get into that in a second. So I was like in love.
Speaker 2:By the end of that like 30 minutes, I was like I'm gonna do it, I'm set, I know what I'm doing. And I was like I'm gonna still do the PhD info interview just to prove myself that I don't wanna do this. And I walked in there yesterday these were also two weeks apart, so just know that. So I had some time to kind of settle with it. I was so excited. I was like I'm gonna do an Edd. I know what I'm gonna do, I'm scared of a PhD, but I'm gonna just prove to myself that I'm not gonna do this and come yesterday I sit down with this person. She's in her last year of her PhD and she just demystified the entire thing for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Again going to an R1. So these two people were at R1s and I was also hanging off of every word she was saying and I was like, oh my gosh, that's so doable and I can see how that would work. My one concern, the biggest con for me, is I'm not gonna be able to work full time. Sure, and that's a concern for me because I don't have the privilege of just thinking about MJ and MJ's needs. You know, as a woman of color, as a first-gen person, I have to think about my family, and it goes beyond just me and my fiance and my dog and it goes to my mom, to my grandma, all these other pieces and people where I have to think about my salary and what that looks like and the benefits I have working at UCLA and doing all the other roles. So I was really excited to hear if I could think about myself in the PhD. I was like, if I just had to think about me, heck, yeah, and I was. You know, armin, what's so interesting?
Speaker 2:I was listening to her and she was like, oh, you go to school, you do take class. It's at 10. And I was like, dang, I'd really have a lot of time to like self-care, read, read, meditate, like so many things that I don't have time for now, because I'm giving 110%. And I was like that sounds so nice. And I was like, and it's only two years, because it'd be two years of coursework and then I could work full time when I enter third year, which is dissertation, because then I might own accountability, right, so it would just be out of the field for two years. I mean, I don't know if I could work part time, but that's a whole other thing. Okay, that's where I am right now.
Speaker 1:So I love that you acknowledge the fear that you had about PhDs. We talked about that offline and we kind of figured that out, that you're putting PhDs on a pedestal, um, and now you're at a point where you're realizing that you actually could do a PhD. I know it's scary, yeah, and I love that you admitted that to yourself, because that is kind of a huge step in in your internal world in terms of like, okay, I know I can do this, but now you're thinking about all these other factors. So I want to unpack that a little bit, let's say, let's just say you know, in a perfect world, you did go through the PhD program and you did have to leave your job, your full time job. I know you mentioned you have some responsibilities. What? How would you leaving your full time job for two years affect your life?
Speaker 2:Yikes. So that one thing for me is that would be a sacrifice, and if you know me, I'm a workaholic. I love to work.
Speaker 2:So even as even if I was like doing classes, I would do everything I could to be productive and busy and stay busy Like I need to. I need that in my life. So if I, if I lost my job for two years, what, what? What does that mean to me? It'd be well one I'd have to face, like the salary, like the pay cut, sure, right, like, and then that's a lot of whole other sacrifices there with having an expense, you know, like a car and gas and insurance and all these other things like rent, food, all those, all those things one. So for me that's what that would be.
Speaker 1:Have you done the calculations to see? Because you, you are a two income household, so you haven't done the calculations. That's something that you might want to consider doing to see what it actually looks like and how it would in reality affect your life. Of course, a pay cut is a pay cut. It's going to be a big change of course, but at the same time, if it is doable let's say you do the calculations and it's doable would you go for a PhD program?
Speaker 2:I think in a perfect world and it was doable.
Speaker 1:No, in this world. In this world, let's say, you go home tonight, tomorrow, you do the calculations with your partner and it comes out to like, okay, I can, this could happen. I won't be. Maybe my lifestyle will change a little bit, but I'll live and I can't work for two years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like my brain is so okay. I feel like my heart. Yeah, my heart, because I'm a feeler. I'm a feeler. If you know MBTI or you know 16 personalities, you know what that means. I'm a feeler. My heart is telling me do it. My brain is telling me wait Okay.
Speaker 1:Wait till sometime in the future?
Speaker 2:I don't, and that's the thing is I also had to like, decide, like is this the right time?
Speaker 2:And that's why I shared in the morning in the beginning of this feels like the morning that I also had to like think about, like, where am I in my career? And sometimes I feel too young in my career and sometimes I feel like I'm ready. I feel more ready than I do, young, to be completely honest with you. Sure, and that's the thing is, when my brain is telling me wait, I'm like do I just wait another year? What does wait mean? Yeah, is that another year? Is that a semester? Is that like five years?
Speaker 1:Their particular life event. You're waiting for it right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do I wait for my partner to finish his PhD? Then I feel permission to do it. Well, one, I don't. I don't believe in that. I don't feel that at all. I don't mind doing it at the same time, but there's something telling me wait, but my heart would tell me to. My heart is telling me to do it. Okay, and I feel the same, though, for an Edd. That's my thing, and that's where then the career goals come in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay, so what is? Let's unpack what's exciting to you about a PhD versus what's also exciting to you about an Edd.
Speaker 2:That's a great question, I think. For a PhD, what's exciting? Well, for both, I'd be challenged, but what's exciting is that would be challenged in different ways. So for a PhD, I think the most exciting thing for me is I would be able to take all these ideas I have in my brain and literally put them into a research project, like I did for the first year initiative. Right, it was an idea and I put it to practice and boom. So doing that and doing my own project there with the research and being challenged in that way is what's exciting to me. Also, the career goal, the career possibilities that come with that could be a Dean, could be a vice chancellor. I don't know that I'll ever get there, but that's like the option.
Speaker 2:I could be tenured faculty, which I actually have identified that I don't want to do. I don't want to be an assistant. That's not a current goal of mine. I like to teach every so, now and often, but I prefer the student interaction, the administrative type stuff and student affairs. So that's the exciting part for me in a PhD. Also, I think, growing with the cohort of people. That for me sounds really exciting. It's also cohort for an EdD, but it feels a little bit different because in an EdD you're there, it's a more practical and again, it's mostly working profession.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And I don't mean practical in an easier way. I also want to make that very clear. They're both academically challenging and they're rigorous as well. So for an EdD, what excites me is one. The challenge Two is like I'll be done in three years. What makes me hesitant is, let's say, I do an EdD and I'm like dang, I could have gone so much further, or I could have gone different, do different things with a PhD, and I think well, one. That's. The one screwed up thing in education is why can't you do both? Why is one put higher on a pedestal than others? And I get it right? Historically I get it, but I'm just being annoying as a client right now. That, for me, frustrates me, because then that's an equity issue too. Yeah Right, that's the exciting part there, and that I'll be able to practically do something a lot faster and I'll feel like I'm getting somewhere faster.
Speaker 1:Okay, that sounds to me like checking a box, though I'm cracking me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2:No, you're not wrong.
Speaker 1:That's true. Yeah, it's almost like okay, I got my you know, the highest degree, like my doctorate degree. I got it checked the box. It was a short amount of time, I didn't have to sacrifice my job and now I have this doctorate degree. But is that doctorate degree gonna allow you to become like your full potential?
Speaker 2:And the word I was thinking of when you were saying that is fulfilled. Am I gonna be fulfilled and satisfied once I have an Edd? I still feel, I think in my heart, I'm gonna still feel empty, cause I'm gonna say you could have done just a PhD and you could have stopped crying about it.
Speaker 1:Because now you know that you're capable of doing a PhD.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it sounds to me like you might have that regret later on if you check off the box and I don't wanna do that, cause I don't wanna go back to school in 10 years and then do a five year program and I'm gonna get, I'm gonna be over it, I'm gonna be no, and you don't know what your life is gonna look like in 10 years and and there goes to the uncertainty part that I hate about life. I mean, all of us do Sure yeah.
Speaker 1:With the PhD, you keep your options open in terms of long-term career goals, because it does have more possibilities, or opens more doors, I should say, in the industry of education. But it means more sacrifice now.
Speaker 2:And you know, what's funny is like I don't have. So, yes, I have major responsibilities, but I don't have like like gigantic ones, like I don't have a family yet, right Like I. They're like sacrifices that like, okay, I can't buy myself a new pair of bands whenever the hell I want. Like I do now right, Like that's so stupid and silly, Whereas they're like.
Speaker 1:they're like simple Little things that, like you're used to as a lifestyle that you might have to give up. Now my question to you is is it worth giving up?
Speaker 2:I honestly hell yeah, and if I could do that and I could buy myself three pairs, like it's so stupid like three pairs of them.
Speaker 1:To me it is. You could buy more bands.
Speaker 2:And then I go back to work in year three you know what I mean Like it's hard because I am nervous about leaving the field for two years. But I would. I'm like MJ, what would stop you from still teaching in those two years? What would stop you from still advancing in your career, just in a different way? And I was thinking you know what's funny, I was like dang, I'm gonna hit two years at UCLA in July. It's been two years. Like that's how fast two years are gonna go by.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, it's just like yesterday. You started. It's been two years and with that then you're gonna have more that's gonna come after you make that sacrifice. Now the question okay, okay, wait, so let's pause, You're scaring me.
Speaker 2:How do you feel? I feel like I feel a lot lighter. Yeah, hey, you make me feel a lot more honest with myself, and I think I just needed that. Yeah, I feel like I feel really confident. I feel really capable. The one thing I haven't done is sat down alone and reflected on this, so that makes me nervous. When I sit down, pen to paper, and the words that come out of my hand are PhD, do the PhD. What makes you?
Speaker 1:nervous about that.
Speaker 2:I don't know Like well one, I think just to be the first, and I see so many women in my community doing this and I know so many people who've done it, but I'm like they're not me and our stories are very different, where I've heard their experiences and I'm like I don't have research experience the way they do. I don't have this, this and that. So I make myself nervous, even though yesterday I was told by the person who's literally. She's like MJ, you're so well prepared and you are way more prepared than I was when I started the program.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the imposter syndrome and you, as a counselor, know that that's what's happening. What would it mean to you the day you complete your PhD program, the day I pass? I want you to picture MJ few years into the future. Walk across that stage and you have your PhD.
Speaker 2:I'm like mentally crying, thinking about it.
Speaker 1:I'm like what's coming up for you.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's insane. You're gonna make me cry, that's okay.
Speaker 1:It's a safe space.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking about, like the little girl I hate you. I'm thinking about my inner child, yeah, and how proud she would be.
Speaker 1:That it was all worth it, right? Your mom's hard work, your grandma's.
Speaker 2:I hate you and love you at the same time, right now.
Speaker 1:It's a bigger deal for you. I think I'm hearing that the Edd is a. It's like a band aid for you in the goals that you have for yourself and the potential that you have. It's a great degree, but in your case you are capable and you want to keep your options open to go as far as possible in the industry, because this is the industry for you. You were born to be in this industry.
Speaker 2:Thank, God, yeah, I'm so glad you're here to tell me that, because we always tell people we can't tell you what's going to work and what's not going to work. But what's funny is I knew I needed to be in education, hearing you say that it's true. An Edd for me is safer, it's safe. Yeah, it's safe. It's something. I hate saying this because they don't mean to diminish it at all but for me it's like getting another master's degree. We all know I finished my masters early because I had nothing better to do. Yeah, yeah and a PhD for me. That's the challenge that I need, and to be able to and I'll feel done. Yeah, you can't go higher than that. I mean, if I could be a lawyer, I would hell, actually not. I mean, maybe if I met Michelle Obama and Maybe that would be the 15 years from now after your PhD yeah, yeah and 15 years.
Speaker 1:And you know what's she's like. Okay, I'm going back for a JD now.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then yesterday the person I was talking to said they were sharing how they look at their life in decades. And I was like that's so interesting. Oh my God. I got to use that in my practice because they're like, yeah, don't look at it at five years at a time, because it's too short. 10 years is just the right amount. Wow, and I was thinking and I left.
Speaker 2:When I was walking back to the office, this info interview happened on campus. I was like, hmm, so in a decade of an EDD, where do I see myself growing, growing? And then I was, and I honestly drew blanks Well, one. I was like, okay, a director of a center. And then what? Right, right. So I stopped there. And then I was like, okay, in decades of a PhD, where do I see myself growing? And I was like, well, you can be the director of a center, you can lead your own research project. You can do this, you can do that. You can be assistant director, assistant professor, if you want, but you don't really want to do that. You want to say an admin stuff, right?
Speaker 2:And then I was like, oh, and then when you retire, you could still teach every once in a while, yeah, I mean, I could do that with an EDD too, but there's so much more credibility with the PhD and it allows you that flexibility in the field to do whatever you want. It's like the ultimate bingo pass and education. And I was like, yeah, that sounds and the thing with me and you guys should know this by now. I am somebody who likes security. I like stability. Yeah, A PhD will secure that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's the truth. It makes you feel safer in the sense that you have all these possibilities.
Speaker 2:And I hate myself for thinking this way, but I also feel like I fit in Like with this group of people with a PhD.
Speaker 1:So my question to you is the status. Is there something tied to the status of a PhD for you?
Speaker 2:Honestly, no, like I'm still going to be me. I'm still going to be MJ. I joke that I want my kids to call me doctor and they're friends. They're friends, but they're call me doctor, but like, that's like such a joke For me. I've in my circle, my tight circle, nobody has a PhD. I mean, my fiance will have one in a few years, but he's still going to be him to me, like it's. The status means nothing to me. What means something to me is the impact I can make with those three letters.
Speaker 2:That's what means something to me. I can care like and I've told you this before when I was first, first starting is like when I was debating between the two for me it was like I don't care what I do because the letter shouldn't matter, it's the work that you do. But I think when we, when we take a step back and put the reality lens on with a PhD, the impact is going to be greater and it's going to be more real, like it's seen as more reliable coming from somebody with a PhD. And I want to create that impact and I want to create that visibility for people like me, like you, to be in this type of program, to be able to succeed in here and add to that representation. Yeah, so the status means nothing to me. It's what I can do with that. Yeah, I think that's what I'm talking about being elite in education.
Speaker 1:Okay, I think you have your answer, yes.
Speaker 2:And I say that really, I'm so scared. I'm so scared, sure, it's just, it's a big decision. It is. It's a huge decision and timeline wise. I'm not going to share my timeline on here because I have to, I have to, I have to figure that out, but I, I think I have my decision too, and yesterday, I think, clarified that for me and it just demystified the whole explanation. I'm still going to continue my research. I still have to do it. I'm still going to meet with people who have an Edd, because I need to see, I need to make sure, and it's like choosing a job.
Speaker 1:Sure, there's a lot of factors, but at least now you know what your heart and soul are gravitating towards. The rest of the practical stuff you have to figure out actually, do your calculations figure out what your personal life looks like. All that you know. You'll have to make adjustments too, but sounds like it's going to be worth it. That sacrifice is going to be worth it. Thanks, arminie, thanks MJ. Well, everyone, this is what a career counseling session may sound like. Yeah, if you haven't been to one or if you haven't met with us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because that's what I mean. I don't usually cry, but that was. That's sometimes what happens.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean it's. You know, mj, and I love doing what we do. If you are interested in career counseling or need someone to process things like this with, you, know how to hit us up. Yeah, absolutely.