Coffee & Career Hour
A genuine & informative podcast on all things career - hosted by two career counselors and friends. From practical strategies to motivational & reflective content, this podcast is here to empower and guide you to find meaningful work, make informed career decisions, and reach your full potential. So, grab a cup of coffee and join in for some career talk.
Coffee & Career Hour
Strategies for an Impressive Law School Application
Get ready to uncover every crucial detail of navigating the journey to law school. In this episode, we discuss the application components and process as well as a realistic timeline for applying to law school. We review how law school applications stand apart from other graduate programs and provide tips on how to navigate the different components of the application. Discover why starting early can make all the difference.
In this packed episode, we break down the essentials: mastering the LSAT or GRE, crafting a standout personal statement, and utilizing optional essays strategically. Hear our tips on connecting with faculty, students, and alumni to gain invaluable insights. Whether you're considering the best prep programs like Blueprint or Khan Academy, or wondering how to present your challenges and aspirations compellingly, we've got you covered. Tune in to equip yourself with everything you need to make your law school application process smooth and successful!
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Hola, hola, bienvenidos. Hi, arminé, Hello, how are you Good? How are you? I'm good, I'm excited for this episode. I'm ready to learn.
Speaker 2:Oh yes, I'm excited too. What are we doing? Tell me what are we doing. We're talking about law school.
Speaker 1:This is a specialty episode for all of you out there. Arminé is feeling in the law school mode.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I will tell you why. Law school applications are opening up soon in a couple of weeks and the majority of my appointments at UCLA have been about law school Ever since I returned from maternity leave. Literally, I would say 90% of my appointments are about pre-law.
Speaker 1:I love it. I love it because it's also been a topic that I've been researching myself, just because a lot of students, when they can't book an appointment with the amazing Armanay I get those questions sometimes too. I think, subconsciously, though, we also have a really good friend who's doing jury duty right now. Yes, so that's where this is probably coming from too, but I love it.
Speaker 2:So that's where this is probably coming from too, but I love it. Yes, that is so true.
Speaker 1:You guys, one of our friends.
Speaker 2:Who's listening? Yes, most likely will be listening at some point. We won't name names. You know who you are. They are on jury duty and it's a long ass process. Dude, we won't even see this person until they're, like, done with jury duty. Basically, it's like next year, yeah, so we're upset with the court, the us supreme court, because we can't see our friend, but anyway, um, they are on jury duty and this is something that's been kind of in our conversations, I think, lately. Right, just talking about the law and how the system works, and then, on top of that, the student appointments and law school applications opening up soon, so we felt inspired to talk about it.
Speaker 1:I absolutely love it. I think it's also good, though, because if you maybe this doesn't necessarily relate to you, but if you know someone who's interested in the law school process, you can always share this episode with them, or even tell them something you learned in this episode too.
Speaker 2:Yes, please, please share widely with anyone who is considering law school if it's still just a thought in their mind and they're not sure if that's the path they want to take, or if they already have an idea and they're committed to it but they don't know where to start or the timeline and everything. We can address all of those in this episode and please share widely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Or you could just refer them to Ms Armanay herself and she can give thema counseling session about how to apply to law school and if law school is even right for them.
Speaker 2:Yes, I would love to. I love talking about law school and working with pre-law folks, so through Career Rise I also can support people who are in this process, either deciding on it or going through personal statements, resumes and the application process for law school. I'm happy to support folks in that process Beautiful.
Speaker 1:All right, Armanay. Well, let's talk a little bit about this process, because law school, I don't know. Is it different than regular old grad school?
Speaker 2:Great question. It is so not different. I will say, though I think that in general society, we put law school on a pedestal and we think it's this big scary thing when we're applying to it, and in reality it's a graduate program. It is not much different from other graduate programs. It may be slightly more competitive, but there are also many, many competitive graduate programs out there. So the reality is it's not different in terms of the application process or in terms of how you're going to be feeling as a law student. It's going to be super busy and intense, just like most other graduate programs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, some of the main things that I hear is that it's a pre-professional program right. And if you are applying to a pre-professional program, what does that mean versus a? When we say regular graduate program or graduate program, we're talking about a master's degree or a PhD or a different type of doctorate right. When it's a pre-professional program, like an MBA, a master's in business administration, a law school right. So getting a JD, all these different things, or an MD or any pre-health graduate program, they're leading you to a specific career. Right. You go to dental school, dental graduate school, to become a dentist. You go to medical school to become an MD, a doctor, go to law school to become an attorney right, and within the legal court. So know that a pre-professional program is leading you towards a specific path and career, whereas a graduate program could lead you, like our master's in counseling could really take us anywhere. It doesn't always have to be counseling itself.
Speaker 2:Yes, that is a big difference between pre-professional programs and generally other graduate programs. And another difference is that these pre-professional programs like MBA, JD, MD, those are like the highest level degree you could get within that industry, equivalent to a PhD in other industries. So that's another way to think about it is you're getting the highest level degree. That is also why law schools are very intense and competitive. But if it is something that you are passionate about, something that you really want to do, it's worth it. And usually for any kind of grad program, regardless of how intense it is, if it's aligned with your passions, then it is going to still feel very natural and you're still going to enjoy the process, as difficult as it may be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. So what does this process look like? How do I do it if I want to apply to law school this year?
Speaker 2:Yes. So in terms of applying to law school, that process you probably won't enjoy I don't think anyone enjoys applying to a program but the end result is great. So, with that said, the process is it takes quite a bit of time. I would say it takes about a year in advance. So, thinking about the year you want to start law school, that the year previous to that is your application year.
Speaker 1:Ok, OK, so if I want to go next fall, I got to apply now.
Speaker 2:Yes, and starting the whole calendar year let's say we're in 2024 right now from January 2024 to essentially November or December 24 is your application year, gotcha. So that whole year you should be focusing on your applications and we're going to dig into what that actually means. But your applications open up in September. So in September the applications open up in September. So in September the applications open up. You want to have your applications done by the end of November, the latest.
Speaker 1:Okay, and where do I go? How do I do this? Am I using a portal? Am I going to the specific school? Do I just Google?
Speaker 2:it? Yes, great question. You are using a portal and the portal is called LSAC. This is essentially the hub for all things law school. It's a law school admissions council website and you would need to create an account on there. When the applications open up, they're going to open up on that website. You log in with your account and you essentially go through the application process and you would select the law schools that you're applying to through this portal and each law school will kind of have its own nuances of certain personal statement prompts or certain differences in certain questions that they ask, but a lot of the materials are going to be the same for most law schools.
Speaker 1:Awesome, and this is the one portal I'm going to use to submit all the applications to each school.
Speaker 2:Yes, including your recommendation letters, your transcripts from undergrad. All materials will be uploaded to this portal. There is a specific paid service through LSAC that's called the Credential Assembly Service, which is CAS. If you pay for the CAS service, you are able to upload your transcripts and your letters of rec on there, and it is highly recommended because if you're doing your letters of rec through CAS, it will send a letter, you will put the information of your recommender into CAS and then it will send them an email with the link to upload the letter. So it simplifies the process. If you don't use the CAS service, you would have to get letters mailed to the school, which is possible. Yeah, you can do that to the school, which is possible. Yeah, you can do that. But in my work I've always seen folks use Cal State, but it is a paid service, but it's not required. It is not required. The law schools will give the option to have a letter be mailed to them.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it sounds like I have to have an application form filled out references or recommendations and something else. I've been hearing Armanay well, for graduate programs it's usually familiar that you're supposed to take the GRE or the General Requirements exam. For law school. I know it's the LSAT. Do I have to take the LSAT?
Speaker 2:Yes, you do have to take the LSAT. Something to say about these graduate exams in general. There's a lot of uptake in the education industry about not requiring exams anymore. The same thing happened with undergrad with the SATs. So the UC systems actually abandoned the SATs anymore, and the reason for that is because there is a lot of research happening about showing that these exams don't necessarily predict student success in graduate programs or in education programs in general. So, for example, the SATs were abandoned for undergrad and then now graduate programs are also reviewing whether they want to require exams.
Speaker 2:A lot of graduate programs have removed the GRE. Law schools have been in talks about removing the LSAT, but it hasn't come to the point where they've officially removed the requirement. What I've seen a lot is a lot of programs will say you could take the GRE instead to replace the LSAT, because the LSAT is a more specialized exam, the GRE is general. People might have a preference to take the GRE instead, but I haven't seen any law programs that have said like you don't need to take an exam at all. That might happen in the upcoming years, because these conversations were happening recently, but for the time being they're requiring either LSAT or GRE still preferably the LSAT though.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I know um a lot of people, when they're taking these exams, they like to know a number. So what is my score? What should I be getting on the LSAT? What should I be aiming for? I guess, that's my question.
Speaker 2:The highest score you can get on the LSAT is 180. And most folks are aiming for 170 range or like maybe high 160s. So to give a range I would say like 165 to 175 might be a realistic range. Uh, the highest I've seen in uh the students I've worked with has been probably like 171 or so. And then usually I tend to see folks in the 160s range and people who score in like 150s. They usually are wanting to retake the exam so that they could get a higher score.
Speaker 1:Okay, and let's say I'm studying for this exam. What's your number one tip for me?
Speaker 2:Ooh, that's a great question. My number one tip is to start early. Don't wait until that last two months before your exam. So if you know you want to start law school at a certain time and the year before that is your application year, you're going to want to take the LSAT, probably in the summer of your application year. So if you start the year before that, then you have a whole year of studying until you take the exam, and so this kind of actually means that you have to decide on law school and then have another, like maybe at least one year or maybe two years, so that you could prep and really take the time to study for the LSAT.
Speaker 2:There are prep programs for the LSAT that are usually paid, and so some popular ones are Blueprint or Sage Academy.
Speaker 2:Khan Academy has it too. I've heard good things about Blueprint from my students, but those are all paid and they have different versions, like an independent study version, group classes, live classes, and they also have tutoring wow yeah, and each one has its own price range, so you would have to kind of see what works best for you. I always recommend my students to think about how they study best. Okay, so if you're an independent learner versus, if you need, if you actually prefer the classroom settings that the group setting might work best for you, but it might be good to start off independent in the very beginning. If you start early enough, you could do that and get familiar with the content. There's practice tests on the LSAT website and there's a lot of information on the LSAT website separately for the LSAT exam. What a lot of people do, too, is take a diagnostic test at first, which is a practice test without any studying, to see where they land, and then, of course, as they study, they're taking more practice tests to see how their score improves.
Speaker 1:Wow, you're making me want to take a practice test, and I'm not even planning on going to law school.
Speaker 2:Let's do it. Yeah, it is interesting to see you know your progress, and so I would say first take the diagnostic, start studying early and try different study methods to see which one works best for you. Those would be my main tips.
Speaker 1:Quick question, though. Let's say I don't like my score. I got a 157 and I took it in June of my application year, right? I'm applying, let's say, this year, and I took it two months ago.
Speaker 2:Can.
Speaker 1:I take it again in September and resubmit my score.
Speaker 2:Yes, you can. You can take the LSAT exam multiple times and it is usually offered through November. So if you take it, let's say, in June, then there's like an August date, september, october, november dates, so you could repeat it multiple times. Some law schools will take the higher score and some will average it out, kind of depends. Yeah, you also have the option to preview your score and then cancel it out so that law schools don't see it. Oh dang. Yes, that is a paid service. When you sign up for the LSAT, you can opt in for that service, and so scores usually come out about two weeks or so after you take the exam. You are able to preview it and if you don't like your score and you don't want it to be reported, you can remove it.
Speaker 1:That's crazy. Would you recommend students or people applying to law school do that? Is there any like repercussions if we choose to?
Speaker 2:There isn't. It just it's not in your record anywhere. I actually say to a lot of times students will ask the other side of that is oh, if I show multiple scores, is there a repercussion? There isn't, especially if you're improving your score. Or is there a repercussion? There isn't, especially if you're improving your score. Ultimately, they're going to see that you've worked hard and studied and improved your score right. So that's the goal, because I think I always have to clarify to people I'm working with that law school admissions representatives are also human and they don't expect you to be a perfect robot.
Speaker 2:We're not AI machines right Walking around. We're human beings. You might have a low grade here and there. Every once in a while in your transcript you might have a low score that you had to retake the exam for. You're a human being, so they're looking more about your qualities and characteristics and if you are able to increase your score, you're telling them that you put in the work to do that right. So that's actually a good quality.
Speaker 1:of course, if you get a high score from the beginning, that's even better for everyone, but then nobody expects you to be perfect and it's okay if you need to retake it or resubmit things I love that you bring out or you acknowledge the human side to these things, because a lot of time we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to do something correctly or get in a certain program or school or whatever. So have you. So I appreciate that you remind our audience that there's a human side to this Right. It's not only you coming in as a human being with what you have to offer, but also the people evaluating you, as tough as it may seem, offer, but also the people evaluating you, as tough as it may seem. Which leads me to my next question.
Speaker 1:And one of my favorite parts of the graduate school process, which is the statements that you write, and we all know well, you're about to know that for law school, you're submitting a personal statement. So, Armanay, what goes in a personal statement?
Speaker 2:Great, great question. So personal statement is essentially a summary of your, I should say, identity, your characteristics, things that you want to highlight to an admissions committee and, a lot of times, really good statements. I actually read a really really great statement just recently she did.
Speaker 1:She was so excited she came to my office. It was the the cutest thing ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that that statement was really well done, because I think what made it well done was that there was the personal story. That then transitioned into the relevant experiences, that transitioned into why this person wants to go to law school, and those are components that you want your story to embed. But usually it could be anything from challenges you faced People talk about challenges from childhood, growing up, or challenges while they were a student in college family dynamics, legal issues, especially applying to law school. I do see a lot of times people talking about, maybe, legal issues their family had and how that's made them want to go into law. That people have talked about healthcare issues and that's made them want to go into law. So it's whatever challenges you might have faced, whatever moment you realized you wanted to go into law and your curiosity sparked, whatever characteristics like leadership qualities or resilience those kinds of characteristics you want to highlight.
Speaker 2:Your story can revolve around those things, but then it's not just talking about your story. Right, I would say that's probably the first one third of your statement. The next piece does need to go into experiences or skill sets that you want to highlight. So if you've done internships or jobs or so that are relevant, and then finishing it off with the future tone, because you don't want the whole statement to be past. The tone shouldn't be focused on your past. It should also finish with the future. So this is what I'm looking forward to. All these things made me who I am today, which makes me a good candidate for law school. That's the question you're answering.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that because it goes beyond what they see on our transcripts, what they see on our resume, what they see through our references and recommendations as well. Your personal statement is really your story to this admissions committee, saying like this is what. These are my lived experiences. These are things that I have encountered, I've overcome, I've achieved and this is why this is the amazingness that I'm going to contribute to this program and this is how this degree, this program, can help me achieve my goals as well. So this is honestly one of my favorite parts. Funny fun fact I was starting to think about mine last week um for for doctoral program which is kind of crazy.
Speaker 1:So I love personal statements they.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do. You know I've. There are so many times I've gotten emotional reading my students personal statements. You really get into the story and you really start to like get to know folks from their statement absolutely so it is a really personal process and application and I love it too. It's my favorite because it is beyond the scores and the transcripts and all of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, armanet, I know through you, because you are all things law here, that there are also optional essays. So, for those of us who are thinking about applying to law school, do I complete them, do I not? Not? What do I add? Do I do all of them? Tell me about these optional essays? What do I do with them?
Speaker 2:yeah, optional essays are, in fact, optional. Uh, one rule of thumb I recommend people to think about is depending on the prompt, which usually the prompts revolve around either a diversity statement or address why you want to go to this particular law school. Those tend to be the more common optional statements, but there might be some other statements too, depending on the law school. Whatever statement they're asking in the prompt, think about if you've addressed that in your personal statement already. That's a good way to think about. Like, if I answer this optional essay, am I adding more context for the admissions committee? If it's gonna be kind of repetitive to your statement, then it's probably not necessary. Sometimes it'll be like my students will say oh, I mentioned let's say they mentioned the challenge or something they talked about in their statement, but I could elaborate more because of the optional essay prompt. Should I write it Then? Yes, if you can add more, then I think it's always a good idea to write it.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. So if I'm going to add a different perspective or opinion or experience, then do it, but if I'm just going to tell the story with different colors, don't. Yeah, got it Okay, cool. Well, one of my favorite pieces of guidance for students who are going into graduate programs are to contact faculty and current students, and even recent graduates as well, to get you know the feel of the experience. What about you If I want to go to law school? Is that something I should be doing or is that something I shouldn't be doing?
Speaker 2:Yes, always. It's always a good idea to talk to folks who have gone through the process or in doing the work now, because they can really talk about their personal experience and what tips and strategies maybe what they learned from their mistakes that they can tell you so you can avoid the same mistakes. So I would say it's always a good idea to talk to folks who have gone through the process. Love it With. That said, you could also ask for recommendation letters in those conversations. So if you're talking to somebody like a professor who you have a good connection with, right, that professor could speak to your strengths as a student. Or if you're talking to, let's say, you did an internship and the supervisor of that internship can really talk about your professionalism and what you've learned in that experience and how you've grown.
Speaker 2:These are great folks to ask for recommendation letters. And, on that note, you need two to three recommendation letters for law school, but I always recommend having three. But you want to follow the precise directions of the law program. So if the program says two, only upload two, but have three, because some will ask for three.
Speaker 1:I love that, I will say too. But have three, because some will ask for three, I love that I will say too.
Speaker 1:Don't overthink your recommenders Just because I encounter students all the time who are like yeah but this has nothing to do with that program or my experience or my internship or my research or my job has nothing to do with that, and it's so interesting to me the way I see students who get so in their head and they discount all of their lived experience, and I'm like that's amazing. Though, if you, for example, were a transfer student and you're thinking about law school, yes, you can ask your community college professor to write you one, because they've seen your growth from community college student to now university student, to now potential law student as well.
Speaker 1:So don't discredit your experiences because they're not directly related. Think about the amazing skill sets, the professional growth that people can speak upon too, so know that your experiences are valid.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, 100%. I do get that question too often of like, oh, does it have to be a professor who was in my major or does it have to be a professor from university? And, like the community, college professors don't count. They absolutely count because, for all the same reasons that you just mentioned so anybody, I will say law schools do prefer academic letters. So if you are going to do one professional letter from an internship or job site, that's okay, but make sure the other two are academic letters. So faculty from any point in your academic journey, as well as any subject that they've taught that none of that matters, as long as they could really speak to your qualities beautiful all right, armin a, I have three rapid-fire questions for you as we're ending.
Speaker 2:I'm nervous.
Speaker 1:are you ready for these? Yes, all right. Should I be submitting a resume or a CV? The resume questions for you as we're ending. I'm nervous. Are you ready for these? Yes, all right. Should I be submitting a resume or a CV? A resume Should I submit my application as soon as it opens?
Speaker 2:Yes, Law schools are on a rolling admissions basis. This is actually something different from other graduate programs. They do not wait until applications close to review and accept people. So when applications open in September that's why we recommend having them submit your applications at least by the end of November, even though applications will be open through, like February or March for most schools. But if you wait till the end, you're up against a lot more competition and a lot of people have already been admitted up until that time. So the earlier you submit, the higher chances you have of getting in.
Speaker 2:And on a side note to that, law schools have an early decision program. An early decision program is a separate way of applying. I mean, you still do those same exact application process, but you apply through early decision, which means you're doing a binding contract with this institution. If they accept you, you are legally bound to go to that school and you have to revoke your applications from other programs. And the benefit to that the early decision is that your chances are slightly higher of being admitted because you're already in contract with them. And so I always say, if you're deciding on early decision, if you don't meet something like a GPA score or an LSAT score is maybe slightly lower than their range, but it's your dream school. Early decision is a good option in those cases and also it's a good option because it helps with like their scholarship components to early decision and so forth. So think about early decision for programs that you really, really want to go to and maybe, if you're not sure if you meet their criteria.
Speaker 1:Love it. Which leads me to my last rapid fire question how many programs should I be applying?
Speaker 2:to no magic number, but seven to eight is like a common number for any kind of graduate programs. You could apply to 15 if you want, but I would say that that starts to become like more quantity than quality. You want your applications to be quality and, with that said, identify your REIT schools and your backup schools, and that way usually I see somewhere like slightly less than 10 applications. Once people start to really analyze location, finances and what programs they're actually genuinely interested in, as opposed to just applying to all the law schools to see which one they get into, that's not the best strategy.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, you heard it here first from our very own Armanay, our pre-law advisor. Armanay, thank you for putting on your pre-law hat today. I appreciate you answering all my questions and we will hear. We will be with. We will talk to our listeners next time.
Speaker 2:I do want to say, though, for anybody who is applying to law schools or any graduate program you can come work with either MJ through MJ Career Confidence or myself through Career Rise, for help with personal statements, optional essays and your resume.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and as any good attorney, we have to have a closing statement. So we will see you all next time.
Speaker 2:Meeting adjourned Bye.