Coffee & Career Hour

Salary Negotiation Strategies: Know Your Value

• Armine & Maria Jose • Episode 55

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Could improving your negotiation skills lead to a significant salary boost? Tune in as we unravel the secrets to negotiating your compensation by highlighting your value proposition. This episode is brimming with strategies designed to empower you in the often nerve-wracking world of salary negotiations.

Navigating the labyrinth of salary discussions can be intimidating, but it doesn't have to be. We dissect common fears surrounding negotiation and fortify you with the tools needed to approach offers with confidence rather than apprehension. From understanding industry norms to the art of presenting a salary range, we provide a roadmap for optimizing your negotiation tactics. Explore why asking for up to a 20% increase isn't just a bold move but a calculated step towards securing fair compensation.

Our discussion expands to cover the nuances of negotiating across various sectors, shining a light on why self-reflection and understanding your unique contributions can be pivotal. Hear why negotiation is less about conflict and more about collaboration, arm yourself with compelling statistics, and learn why 85% of negotiators see part of their requests fulfilled. Whether you're stepping into your first role or navigating a new offer, these insights aim to transform how you advocate for yourself in the professional arena.

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Speaker 1:

welcome back welcome back everyone. The last time we were here, it was hot and it was the start of fall.

Speaker 2:

It's october now and it's still hot yeah, it's gonna be 103 degrees this weekend. That's gross. I know I was like preparing my fall outfits. Little did I know we're still in the middle of summer so gross.

Speaker 1:

Um, but anybody any. Any way, happy october. It is the first couple days of october and it feels very festive out in the world, so happy october from us to you yes, spooky season is upon us love it. We are so excited to be back.

Speaker 2:

We have a couple updates drum roll, we actually have a winner for our contest. Yes, uh. Thank you to rachel, who wrote a review and uh rated our podcast. So therefore, you have won a free counseling session with MJ and myself.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and we do want to read the review because we really enjoy hearing what you guys have to say and implement it into our show Right. It's an amazing opportunity that we get to interact with you all. So the review reads found Armanay and this podcast, thanks to MJ who helped me when I was a student at UCLA. Truly appreciate all the work y'all do.

Speaker 2:

Helps keep my spirits up in this tough job market.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, that is so sweet.

Speaker 2:

That is so sweet. It's so nice to hear that like you know there's a positive influence from this podcast in people's lives, because the job market is tough and it can be a little.

Speaker 1:

What's the word I'm looking for.

Speaker 2:

Like it can make someone feel small. You know, and I think you know that's one of the reasons we're doing this podcast is to empower people.

Speaker 1:

So that's really sweet to hear. And, just so you know, I immediately knew who you were when I saw your name. Yeah, immediately, I immediately knew who you were. I remember your major and I remember the conversations that we had and even some of the events you attended. So know that as much as we have left an impact on you, you have also left an impact on the staff that interacted with you as well.

Speaker 2:

That's amazing. I love when we can remember our students, and they do. Our clients, our students you all make a big impact on us, so I'm actually excited to meet you Rachel. Yeah, when we do our session. So we will reach out to you in response to this and go ahead and schedule that session, but you all do leave an impact on us, that's for sure.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, we love it, and thank you so much for the rating. Thank you so much for everyone else who has also committed to some of the reviews, right, some of the more recent ones also talk about. I can't stress enough how helpful all the tips you two talk about with all the things career related, with a capital C from using LinkedIn and the interesting things AI can do and how to properly use it as a tool as well.

Speaker 1:

Oh sorry, there's more to that, so I have this podcast saved and set to automatically download nude episodes as they come out. You guys have such a natural flow when talking about all your topics and really enjoy that. You, that about you too. It keeps me engaged and makes me feel part of the conversation. I recommend coffee and career hour to everyone and I can't wait to continue listening to all the amazing topics you guys have cooking up for us love that review.

Speaker 2:

That is a special one, for sure. Um, and this next review as well is like near and dear to my heart because it like almost encompasses the heart of the podcast. Right, they titled it these Are the Friends you Need and they are sharing. In short, it's helpful advice from the heart. Armin and MJ give you actionable tips and strategies to move through your career with purpose and through honoring your values. Oh, that sounds so warm. I love it. It sounds very full, yeah, very cozy. It really does. So we are really grateful to kind of get these reviews, um, and and see that you're all getting the feeling and the heart behind this podcast.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's what we're here for. Um, we really do hope that these are opportunities to listen, learn, but also get to know us just a little bit more as well?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely. So, with that said, you know we've been talking a lot about different practical career strategies and tips to help you in different aspects of your career, decision making and in our last episode we talked about negotiation, the importance of negotiation, and today we want to actually follow up on that topic with more practical strategies on how to do negotiation.

Speaker 1:

You can never have enough negotiation conversations because it's something that I think that is commonly said to do and to put into practice, to be proactive when you're looking for an opportunity. But I also think it's one of those things that is so taboo. Right to like equal to money, right? How much do you make? How do you talk about it? Because we're so trained in in the western culture that we shouldn't talk about money.

Speaker 1:

You shouldn't ask about it you should just take what you have be grateful, I also come from a culture, or just be grateful for what you have right, just just don't ask for more. Be grateful for what you have, because at least you have that. So it's one of these things where we're happy to be people who can empower you.

Speaker 1:

I love the word, I love that you use that word in the beginning, so I'm going to continue to empower you with strategies, tools and resources to feel the best way possible financially through the opportunities with within your work, because it's really important that you're also paid what you, what you are.

Speaker 2:

Negotiation is a scary topic as it is, and, coming from cultures that we come from as well, it is very uh taboo to talk about money. Right like same with the Armenian culture as well.

Speaker 2:

It's like, um, you need to be grateful for the opportunities that you have. So take what you can get and don't complain. You get what you get and you don't complain. That's what we've been raised on, that's for sure, and I think those are very common in many, uh, immigrant cultures. Right coming here to the us, you already have these big opportunities, so you need to be grateful.

Speaker 2:

But the reality is that there's a system, we live in a system and there are common practices and unspoken rules and I think, just being first generation professionals navigating this world, we're learning how to navigate those systems and we want to share that knowledge with you all too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'll tell you, I'm excited to put these into practice in my next role because, MJ if you heard the last one I've never negotiated before. I've always had the mentality and the opportunities that I have had. They've always been the only opportunity I've been offered, so I didn't feel like I had anything to negotiate for or with, because it was always a new grad, or just you know never done it. Very scared. It was jobless.

Speaker 2:

That's another story for another day and I just need to take it, because I need a job and I need income so I'm excited to put these into practice yeah, later no. I mean, I remember the first time I negotiated. It was scary for sure. I actually had my husband help me yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, you got to use the environment, the, the community that you have.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and you know it. Yes, I'm a career counselor, but also, like my husband had more experience with negotiating and he had read this great book, that is really like you're all equipped with some of those tools and language that you can use in your in your next role.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and we're excited to hear how you, how you use these and how they've helped, and what have you learned and how you've grown too. So kicking things off with some of the obvious things to us as career counselors, but not so obvious. When you are getting, or in the position of getting, a job offer, every hiring manager, every person who calls you to offer you an opportunity, is expecting that you are going to negotiate Flatline.

Speaker 2:

Yes, and nobody tells you this when you're first starting off. It's so weird, it's so awkward. It is awkward, but it's like this when you're first starting off. It's so weird, it's so awkward, it is awkward, but it's like this unspoken rule yeah, that companies will give you an offer expecting that you're going to negotiate, so you can already imagine they're going to aim lower because they're thinking there might leave some room to go higher when you negotiate. If you do, yeah, but nobody knows this. You know it's um growing up and applying to your first professional jobs. You might not know that you're expected to negotiate and you might be super excited to get the offer and just take what you get.

Speaker 1:

You know and they take note if you negotiate or not and how much you negotiated for, and they will internalize that and they'll have that decision with whatever committee they're working with too. So, um, pros, cons, so that type of thing. But everybody's expecting you to negotiate. So, yes, they're going to aim low, so you also have some type of number to kind of go off of. But it has to be a very much so collaborative environment. There has to be an opportunity for you to give and take, and remember that when it comes to negotiation, our main thought that comes across is money.

Speaker 1:

So, yes, there are numbers, but there are also different things that you can negotiate. For example, one of the biggest things that people have been negotiating since COVID is remote work, right. So if, let let's say, you can't come to the compromise of finding a good number that works for you both, if you accept the number they offer, can you work from home three days, two days a week, right. Yeah, working conditions, healthcare benefits Absolutely Really, really anything Vacation discounts to childcare, access to childcare in some different way or parental leave.

Speaker 2:

Mm-hmm, any kind of other perks and benefits?

Speaker 1:

could be negotiated.

Speaker 2:

But truth be told, as career counselors we do see that majority of the time people are trying to negotiate salaries.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's harder to kind of negotiate the other aspects because it's much more of an HR thing. Right, the hiring manager usually is expecting you to negotiate the money when it comes to remote work and different types of benefits and perks really discounts or anything like that that has to go through HR and a lot of documentation, so that's not really seen as much as the money aspect.

Speaker 2:

Exactly so. With that being said, you know when you are negotiating. Regardless of what aspect of the offer you're negotiating, you want to keep in mind that it's not a win-lose situation.

Speaker 1:

You're not competing with the employer at this point. They're giving you an offer, so you guys are on the same team at this point.

Speaker 2:

So going into this negotiation with a mindset of you guys are on the same team and the goal or whatever common ground you come to, it should benefit both parties yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1:

It's not a quick and easy conversation where armenia offers me five dollars and I say I want 10 and then she's like, no, sorry, I can't do that. Sometimes it is as quick as that, but it it all comes down to your approach and what is on the table what is being offered, how much room there is in the budget.

Speaker 1:

You also hear those terms a lot too, but it is really a win-win. You're trying to come to a compromise and that's where you really want to also demonstrate your brainstorming opportunity and your teamwork ability and your openness to work with them. You don't want to be like, sorry, I don't want to accept your $5. I'm worth more than that. Peace out. Yeah, that's not the best approach.

Speaker 2:

And I think, on the other end of that, where a lot of people get stuck and get scared to negotiate, is that if they negotiate and ask for something that the employer can't meet, that they're going to take away the offer or something along those lines. I know as counselors we always tell our clients that they are not going to take away the offer. That is not part of common practice at all, if you try to negotiate.

Speaker 2:

if they can't meet that or they don't have room in the budget or anything, they will let you know, but they're not going to be like oh, never mind, we're not going to, we're taking away this offer because you're trying to ask for more than what we can get 100%.

Speaker 1:

That's not best practice and if it is, find another employer.

Speaker 2:

That's a huge red flag at the start. You haven't even started working for them.

Speaker 1:

So, yes, it is not what we can offer. This is what the job pays. This is the benefits. This is what the breakdown looks like. There's no room in the budget. This is what we have allocated for this position we need your decision at this time and date.

Speaker 2:

So what's the worst that can happen? They can say no, and then that's when you decide like, okay, you're going to take the offer or not take away the offer, then that's different. But if you haven't accepted yet, you are free to decline the offer if it doesn't really meet your needs 100 yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, with that being said, you don't have much to lose at this part of the game, because they're expecting you to negotiate and you might not get exactly what you ask for, but you might come to a common ground, which is what usually happens. So, with that same note, what is the common or the standard percentage mj for people to request like a higher?

Speaker 1:

amount than what they're being offered 20 yeah so if let's say, in a non-ideal world, I'm offering armenia 100 bucks for this, job that she's going to work for me as a career counselor. I'm going to offer you a hundred bucks a month.

Speaker 2:

She can negotiate for 120, right, 20% more.

Speaker 1:

If I'm doing the math correctly, it's 20% more. So she can say well, can I have 120, right? Obviously the conversation wouldn't be like that. There's different tactics and language she would use, but essentially it's 20%.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so you can ask for 20 more. Very rarely will that be like that. They can offer you that much. But then you're thinking, okay, they're gonna go down to about 10, yeah I can meet you in the middle so you end up getting 10 more than what was being offered.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, absolutely a lot of times you know, like if you are successful or not, again the worst thing they can say is no. You also have to be very aware of what you are researching when it comes to that role and what the average pay is. If you're asking for like 50, 70% more than what they're offering, they're going to be like uh, no, it's like unrealistic, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Your request has to be realistic too, in terms of what the market looks like for this type of position, which is one of the biggest rules of negotiation is do your research.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. You, yeah doing your research is so important. It shows not only a certain level of preparedness to the employer, but it also leaves an impression and you always want to leave great impressions. But you come knowing what you bring to the table, what you can contribute to this team and this company, and that's what you want to do, that's what you want to lead with.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely. You've got to know your value and you want to come from a position of strength, not a position of sales. If, if you catch what I'm saying there, like you're not selling yourself it's not a pitch in that sense but you're coming from a true like, meaningful, thoughtful place of like. Here are all the things that I can do for your company and that I bring this wealth of knowledge and experience with me, so like I want to do these things, but this is what I would need in return yeah, you're not a third party, you're not a third party company that they're hiring to do a specific service I mean the technical way.

Speaker 2:

Yes, if we want to consider that a job.

Speaker 1:

But if this is more so like you apply to this job because you want to do it, you have some type of interest towards it, you want to come from this genuine place of not just saying this is what I have, or this is what I'll take away and my type of service to this job. You're not. You're not your own salesperson in that way, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So that's gonna be like in the tone of the email that you send and the way that you're saying what you're saying. So we'll kind of talk about how to structure that email in a little bit too. But to give you some statistics on how common negotiation is and what the results are, according to some research done, there's 38% of professionals say that they haven't negotiated because they don't feel comfortable asking for higher salaries.

Speaker 1:

I believe that I'm part of the 38. I did not come from a place of strength. I did not come from a place of knowing my value. I did not come from a place where I felt confident to do that, so I definitely am in the 38% and agree agree with that. And it really is a level of comfort. It's almost like um asking for more again. It comes for me.

Speaker 1:

It comes back to that piece of like being grateful and it's weird like I'm super grateful to have this title, this role, this position, the school, like all these different things, what I'm supposed to ask for more like you're not supposed to take more than what you've been given, right? So I get it. And I mean everyone has their reasons to negotiate and why they don't want to negotiate, so that's also something too yeah, no, it is super uncomfortable.

Speaker 2:

That's why I had to have my husband help me too, because I felt the same way of like, should I even be asking for a higher salary, like you know? And then he actually coached me. It's so interesting now that I think about it. He's like you have to think about all the skills that you have and what you can offer and the value that you bring and I was like oh my gosh.

Speaker 2:

Yes, it's true, but I felt the same way too, of like, do I even deserve to have a higher salary? But 38% of professionals and that's a pretty big number, I think. In my opinion, Most people often aren't comfortable negotiating, Um like also because of lack of confidence or job security, like that fear that this opportunity is going to be taken away from them, which that's really sad.

Speaker 1:

That's almost a third. Well, that's, I'm sorry that's over a third of employees who don't, who don't feel that way and that lack of um, the lack of confidence is huge because, right, like if I'm negotiating with you, armin, and I'm like I can bring you student service right, and I'm like questioning myself and you hear it and you don't see it, or I'm like you could tell if I'm sending you something, but I know, I don't.

Speaker 1:

I don't live up to that tone or that sense of confidence that is in my email. That clearly looks like someone else wrote it, yeah, or maybe nowadays AI wrote it right. If you're bringing that and you don't know how to articulate again your value, your contribution, your strengths, your confidence to this role and what you can can offer, right, that's also something too so that's huge and that's more of an internal, internal conversation again you have people, counselors like armenia and myself yeah, um, resources that are here to help you do that too.

Speaker 1:

The job security scary, especially in this job market. Right, people are like, uh, let's skip the negotiation. That can happen in six months to a year, depending on what type of environment you work in industry I just need a job.

Speaker 2:

I just need income yeah, yeah, because some companies you might not be able to ask for a raise, like if you're going into corporate, maybe because corporate runs a little differently. But if you're going into like government and city and county type of work or education, good luck, because they they ain't got no budget to like be offering your raise at random times in the year.

Speaker 2:

The best you get is like the three percent raise every calendar year less than five percent raise absolutely that's, that's absolutely true, so thinking about what industries you're going into, because certain industries, yeah, they have different times in the year they do bonuses and things like that, but not many industries don't do that. They just don't have the budget for it. So it's like it's now or never, basically to negotiate a higher salary yeah, it's really crazy, because then you don't know where to pitch yourself. And then let's say you meet someone or somebody on your team, who's doing it and they negotiate.

Speaker 1:

It's very complex, like the whole conversation about it and the thought process that goes behind it. So, yeah, you're not alone I mean ultimately too, like, remember, you're not alone. There's people who've done this, there's people who've successfully done it and people who who've attempted may not have been successful, but hey, they still they still feel good about what they tried, and at least they tried, they made an effort, yeah yeah, and um, even like those of us who have, like, I've tried it, I didn't necessarily ask for the 20%.

Speaker 2:

More like that to me was super uncomfortable. I was like, oh, no way I'm gonna ask for this amount, right? Um, so I found an amount that like made sense for me and we're gonna talk about how to do that research and so forth but I found an amount that made sense for me, that I felt comfortable enough asking where I didn't feel like I was like undeserving of that salary.

Speaker 2:

But now, thinking back, I'm like, you know, there is a common practice of 20 percent, so I coach my students and clients on being comfortable with asking for that if it makes sense based on the research as well, but I know that that for me was uncomfortable too.

Speaker 1:

The other thing a lot of people don't tend to remember in the part of the negotiation, right, because they're giving you. We're strictly talking about money right now. Right, they're giving you a number. I'm giving you $100 a month, for example, or $1,000, whatever you want to consider. I'm not thinking in that moment how much you're going to take out of my taxes, how much if?

Speaker 1:

I'm filing my taxes single, or join in what that's going to look like, how much I'm making, how much my medical benefits, my eye doctor, my dent, like all of these, my pet insurance, for God's sake, like all these things that you don't think about, like, wait, I thought I was going to make a hundred dollars a month. What do you mean? I'm going to make 54 bucks. Yeah, it's so true. So that's why there's this 20% too, because it's like, it's not like, let's say, you're supposed to make a thousand but out of that thousand let's say, I don't know, half his taxes you're going to only make like $523.

Speaker 1:

There's a lot that goes into it as well, which is why the 20% is there, because a good five to 10%, how much extra like a few extra dollars on your paycheck.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, it's true. So thinking about all the different aspects and the formulas that go into play and what actual dollar amount you make at the end of the month is going to look a little different. They're giving you their gross income salary information in the offer and not considering all the deductions that are going to come into play.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and again we're talking about salaries. Right, we're talking about salary opportunities not hourly.

Speaker 2:

Yes, so that's going to look different for part-time or less than full-time roles.

Speaker 1:

So just know that for sure, especially if you're someone making minimum wage or you're in an area where that's at the set limit there may really not be room for negotiation, because that's what it is.

Speaker 2:

Right. There may really not be room for negotiation, because that's what it is, right. That might look a little different, but, on a positive note, in this research study they found that 85% of the people who negotiated did receive at least some of what they asked for that's awesome, isn't that so cool?

Speaker 1:

That is way more than what I was expecting, but it makes sense. Yeah, right, again, it's that impression that you leave, it's the fact that you advocate, because it is a sense of self-advocating for yourself and you're standing up for what you bring. You know what you're bringing. So guess what? The employer, the hiring manager, is going to trust you best, because who knows you better than you? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Definitely so. With that being said, there's light at the end of the tunnel. I'm going to negotiate my next one-on-one.

Speaker 1:

I'm just kidding. Hey, put these skills into practice, MJ, and then let us know how it goes. I love it. It's so funny.

Speaker 2:

But with that being said, you know there is a pretty good chance that you might get something out of this negotiation process. So let's talk a little bit about actual tips and strategies for how to do the negotiation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, Armin, first things first. Again, you need to know you. You need to know what you're bringing. So, not just what was on your resume, but what are the extra bits and pieces that you left in your back pocket for that interview, for you to be like, hey, those impact statements that I wrote, let me show you and let me tell you how that's going to be beneficial towards you and your organization, but again coming from a place of genuine want and interest not just I'm selling my service to you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. It's a two-way street. It is and it's thinking about, like the impact you've made, let's say, in a previous job or if you're, you know you've had, let's say, you're in school, but you've developed a lot of these skills through extracurriculars. Whatever your situation was the impact that you made at your previous location. You want to include that in the negotiation process. That's going to help demonstrate the value that you bring right not just the tasks you did, but what impact did you make?

Speaker 1:

yeah, so for example, I always use myself, because it's easy to use our experiences as an example, and the new ones, I didn't just see students and review their resumes and cover letters, but I created or built strong relationships with the student body to genuinely impact, increase their career readiness upon graduation. That is the value that I bring right. It's not just me knowing how to do spacing and margins on a document.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely, and like, if you think about things, you've went above and beyond at your previous job or in your previous roles where you did things outside of the basic job description. Yeah, um, those are things you can use as well to help demonstrate your value. So the first thing is that self-reflection piece, absolutely maybe writing it down somewhere. Put a whiteboard up, put a pen to paper, whatever, put your computer screen on and type it out. But do some kind of brainstorming process to identify what value do you bring to this profession?

Speaker 1:

yeah, if it helps and you feel like you can go to a trusted person. Mentor um. In this case it was armena's husband right um, a friend, your previous supervisor and co-workers? Yeah, absolutely this also helps, too, to help like brainstorm if you're feeling stuck and I know how can you feel stuck. If you got the right, there's a ton of emotions that come up.

Speaker 2:

So also, you can also include people in your community that can help you with this process as well yeah, to just like talk through it, or you could work with a career counselor, yeah, yeah, and come talk to us either one of us or, if you're at a school, go to the career center at your school, right, but talk to somebody who can like help you process these ideas and maybe like just be a sounding board for you to figure out, like okay, what are all the?

Speaker 2:

things that you did and what were the results of those things Like, okay, what are?

Speaker 1:

all the things that you did and what were the results of those things? Yeah, I'm just reflecting on the last year. I had a lot of students come and talk about this and you know what was the best part was we got to do role play of what that looked like, and that's really helpful too. So that's another strategy of you practicing out what that looks like and how to offer what language to use, what statements to include, what skills and abilities to mention as well?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely. So let's say, you do that self-reflection process, you talk to people who, like, can mentor you through this as well, and you identify, like OK, these are the values that I bring to this profession. What's next, mj?

Speaker 1:

What's next? Well, we did talk about our research, so that's really what's next right Is yes, traditionally, you want to think about research as you're applying for different roles too.

Speaker 2:

But then now comes okay, you've been offered.

Speaker 1:

It's now getting serious right Relationship. You're no longer dating. You're looking to marry in a specific term Now. So I'm going to do my research for this position in my state, in my city, for example, in my county. How much is? Generally what is the average? And you can go back to the part one of this essentially to look at what are the websites and tools you can use to do this?

Speaker 1:

Again, there's that 20%, that's over. But you also want to do your research and look through the data that's out there to determine that number for you.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and one part of like doing the research is okay. Yes, you identify like what are common salary ranges for your job, your profession, within a particular location, and in our previous episode we talk about websites that you can use to do this research. But that's one part of the research piece. The other part is doing your own budgeting. You got to do your own like financial calculations to see how much do you actually need to live, what is your like minimum, minimum that you need to be able to live in the location that you're at, and then what would be your ideal, because that's going to help you come up with that middle ground number that you can help negotiate, ask for in your negotiation process, where you might not get the ideal but hopefully you also won't get the minimum you'll get something a little bit above the minimum.

Speaker 1:

Great to that point. Um, you want to make sure within those ranges you have something that you're not willing to go below. You really need to in this moment, not stand your ground per se, but just know what your limits and boundaries are right, Like I'm offering her $100. She's not going to go less than $120. Okay, she's going to offer $160. Maybe I can't do $160 160, but I can do 140. But she's armin is definitely not gonna go for 120.

Speaker 1:

So again you need to know what your limits are, but also what you need to survive.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, because you know this is a transaction at the end of the day, this is a contract at the end of the day of like I offer this to you and this is what I get in return type of deal.

Speaker 2:

Um, okay, so you know your worth, you know your value, you've done your research. You know what amounts you need minimum, what amounts are ideal. You have like a general range. Um, on that note, when you are asking for in that negotiation email, you don't want to put just one number, you want to give them a range of like between this and this amount something to note be wise and practice wisely when you do this, because the lowest number they hear is the highest number they're going to go for too.

Speaker 1:

So you want to think about that. If I'm going to offer armine 105 and she's like, okay, we'll go for 105, my range is 105 to 160 guess what I'm not going to offer her 160 because her range is 105. Yeah, the lowest number you go for is probably the highest, they're going to offer. If they don't have room for that, they'll negotiate under that too yeah, but it's having a range um, it's just common practice demonstrates flexibility. You're willing to work the open yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2:

Um, and there's this another like nuance to the number that you offer you want to stay away from like round numbers. Yeah, like fifty thousand dollars, for example, annually. That you shouldn't be saying like a round number, like that, it should be like fifty one thousand three hundred and twenty five, like a very specific number because that implies that you did calculations.

Speaker 2:

You looked at your financial situation, you calculated how much you need to live and survive, plus, you also did your research to see how much people make in this field, and in that formula you came up with this very specific number correct.

Speaker 1:

You negotiated perfectly. You have whatever you want, absolutely. Again, it's that level of preparedness versus someone who's like all right, I want like 5 000 more what?

Speaker 2:

yeah, just out of nowhere you, you're like, yeah, okay, cool. Like if you just give me 50K, I'm good, 60k I'm good. Like that doesn't show that you were thoughtful, you know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

You got to think about all of the different life factors that can come into play here, but absolutely.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So in that, along those same notes, before writing out this email or having this conversation, you want to practice your talking points. So thinking about OK, what are the specific, basically like quote unquote, counter arguments you're going to make to say to show them, like, why you are deserving of this higher salary, what are the values that you bring to this employer?

Speaker 1:

you've got to like have specific examples of that yeah, and again, you're not reiterating what's in your documents or what you said through the interview, right? You're talking about legitimate examples, strategies, abilities, things that really differentiate you like, your reasons why you should earn this.

Speaker 1:

You're not going to go in there, so here's another thing too you're not going to go in there and be like well, you know, like well I, I have like three kids and and I need child care and and my husband's not working at the moment and knowledge, no, because guess what, I'm so sorry, in the us nobody cares like we care because I'm, we're human.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, of course you can tell armenina and and I that, but don't tell the employer that, because they're not gonna care at the end of the day. You're there to do the job. Yeah, that's what they so you gotta really think about. What are your reasons why you should be making this much? What are your reasons why we should pay you?

Speaker 2:

yeah, put yourself in the shoes of the employer, like if you were hiring somebody. What would be the reasons why you would be willing to give this person more money? Yeah, yeah, like in your field. What is the kind of knowledge, the kind of skills, the kind of energy that you would expect from a really high performing employee in your field? Right, and then why would they be deserving more salary?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's jumping out to me and I have to say I mean like for you. I could just imagine you talking about how much of a leader you are, how much leadership skill and energy you bring. You unite people without you being in the specific roles, like a director, for example, where you can do that. So you gotta also identify these different pieces, absolutely yeah, get, yeah, get whatever you want.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, hire me. No, but it's true, and this is a perfect point of like where you can ask your colleagues.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Or even classmates, if you're in school right now, like what are some skills they see in you that are like unique to you, that you bring to a team dynamic?

Speaker 1:

You know, absolutely. And it's in these things that you can really highlight the value that you bring and, yes, you do have something different than the other person, because guess what?

Speaker 2:

At the end of the day, that's why they offered you the job, and not the second and third pick Exactly, and the other people also who were in competition with you maybe have the same degrees or the same qualifications, like they meet the minimum, like knowledge and skill level. So you all meet those. But what differentiated you from them? That's what you got to think about. It's got to be the energy and the passion and the other um transferable skills that you bring to this role. So those are things you can lean on in this negotiation conversation 100.

Speaker 1:

I love it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but now, MJ, my question is are we doing this in email? Are we doing this in phone? Are we doing this in person?

Speaker 1:

Yes. So I think you and I we differ a little bit on this type of conversation, but that's okay, because it can be done in both ways. In my thought process, there's a lot of ways in which you can kind of talk about this right. So once you get the offer letter we mentioned this last time too they're going to give you a call. Hey, armanay, really enjoyed you, very much impressed, and our team would love to offer you the position of director of my university, whatever. So here's what we're thinking. This is what we have. Um, we will send you an email with an offer letter up there. Um, if possible. We would like to know your decision by next friday around 3 pm.

Speaker 1:

Um, if you have any questions, you can let me know, reach me back at this number, email me and I'd be happy to chat. Armenia then goes doesn't agree or disagree to the offer. Is very grateful over that phone call. Does not pick that as a time to negotiate because, remember, everybody's expecting you to negotiate.

Speaker 1:

Once you receive the offer letter. There's two ways in which you can handle this. I'm for writing an email, writing again stating your gratitude, your thankfulness towards this, and then also writing your counter offers as well in the email. Or you can ask to set up a. If you're in the opportunity to do face-to-face conversation, have a face-to-face conversation or over zoom. Um, the actual negotiation part in my thought process should, should not happen over email. The counter can, but not the actual conversation. That's my. I don't know if I explained that too much.

Speaker 2:

No, that was perfect. Yeah, and we touched on this in our last episode too. So, yes, you can definitely do that in a actual conversation. Um, in the experience I've had before and the students I've worked with as well, it's kind of happened over email. So I've seen it happen. That's why I'm like also comfortable with the email, because you could be thoughtful about the responses and you don't have that pressure of like having to respond right away. So I think my approach is like more comfortable over email. But I think it's also going to heavily depend on the employer and their style of communication, right, I agree. So you kind of also have to go along with how they approach the situation.

Speaker 2:

But, maybe it would be worth you thinking about what you're comfortable with and maybe preparing for both scenarios, and if you can lean one way or the other, then you choose what you want to do over email or in person.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I will say too so, depending on industry, you may not always be negotiating with the actual hiring manager. So, like your manager on the team, so let's say I offer Armini the job, but I'm like, ok, you know, sally is going to send you Sure Sally.

Speaker 2:

Sally's going to send you. Sorry, I don't know why I was rethinking the name.

Speaker 1:

Sally's going to send you the offer letter and maybe you negotiate with Sally, with uh, with sally now, with me, yeah, um, so it could also depend there, I agree. Communication stuff, but also who you're negotiating with is going to also look very different yeah, it could be the recruiter, it could be the hr rep, who knows? Or if, you're working with someone who's like helping you get recruited, the negotiation could also happen through them too, so it just there's a lot of different ways here.

Speaker 2:

There is, and in those nuances, if actually if you're in any of these processes and have a question, that would be a great time to actually reach out to a career counselor like ourselves to maybe help you navigate that particular situation that you're in, depending on who the employer is if.

Speaker 2:

If you need to reword, the email, figure out how to propose your counter offer or whatever you need, and that like particular nuances. It's hard to say in general here, like how to navigate those, because it's going to be very dependent on your unique situation. Yeah, so those would be great topics to kind of offer career counseling sessions for. But with that said, you know, whatever the process is that you establish with your employer and you do your counter offer and you are now in the process of negotiation.

Speaker 2:

I always like to, like you know, err on the side of like taking time to respond. You know once they say okay, this is the offer that we can make spot. You know, once they say okay this is the offer that we can make. Um, it's always really professional to be thoughtful, even if you know, in the moment that you're gonna take it just to be thoughtful and like hold off. I'm like okay, thank you so much when can I let you know by like final goodbye yeah, that didn't.

Speaker 1:

That was not my experience. I said yes in a moment. But again, I think this word comes back to my relationship with the person who called me. It was a very different situation. So I like was like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I'm so excited I'll take the job. So if it was someone else, I think, if it wasn't, the person completely reacted the way you're saying like thank you so much. I look forward to seeing um the offer letter and then letting you know, by said date, said time.

Speaker 1:

So yeah, mj's story is a little bit different, but that's it for another day. But armena if it's my first time negotiating, how the heck do I even structure this email? What do I put? What do I say? Is it weird? Do I? Do I put in the subject like negotiation?

Speaker 2:

like, what do I do? Negotiation that is so cute. Yes, okay, let's talk about how to structure the email. The very, very first thing you always want to do is thank the employer for the offer, right? So this is one day like send that original offer, like congratulations, et cetera, like here's the attached as your offer letter you reply to that email with a thing being thankful and showing your gratitude for that offer, regardless of what that offer is.

Speaker 1:

Agree, okay what's the next step? Next step is you want to restate your interest in the position, right? You want to talk about why you're excited about this role, but also show gratitude for the offer.

Speaker 2:

So again thanking them.

Speaker 1:

Yes but also propose your negotiation. This is where you can lay out really really well your research, both your interpersonal reflection of finances, how much it costs to live. Let's say if you're moving to a new state change of change of pay, right. If you're coming from Michigan or from Idaho to California, it's very, very different, right? The, the, the pay and what that looks like to live in California is insane.

Speaker 1:

Again making me want to negotiate, um, but this is where you lay out your research, where you got it from the numbers, all those different things and backing up with your value proposition, right? Do you remember your elevator pitch and why you and?

Speaker 2:

why this position?

Speaker 1:

all that great stuff. That's where you throw this in there, but again with those concrete reasons and statements and values and skills and abilities, qualifications, why you, why you deserve to make this much money, why you deserve to earn from this company because of all the amazing things you're going to contribute yeah, yeah, so it's that that's like the heart of your email, right, the actual value proposition.

Speaker 2:

But uh, going back to that point of like referencing your research, we literally been referencing, like when you're in school and you cite your sources. Correct. That is according to salarycom. X, y and Z position in Los Angeles. California makes this range yeah.

Speaker 1:

You're not going to be like. My husband thinks I should make 10,000 more.

Speaker 2:

That's what my reference is which?

Speaker 1:

I totally agree.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, seriously, but yeah, it would be like. According to this source, this is how much the range is, and you could list a couple of sources. Furthermore, according to this other website, this is how much the salary range is, based on my research and my calculations of um minimum like salary requirements in los angeles, california. I am proposing this amount for the following reasons, and that's where you list your value proposition. Yeah, it's almost like a cover letter point Los Angeles, california.

Speaker 2:

I am proposing this amount for the following reasons, and that's where you list your value proposition yeah, it's almost like a cover letter, point 2.0 version yeah essentially, but yeah, no, literally, you set your sources and then at the end is thanking them again for listening, for reading your email, for offering you the position.

Speaker 1:

And.

Speaker 2:

I look forward to hearing back from you, and that's it.

Speaker 1:

You send off that email, yeah remember, when you're thanking them for the last time, to again open it up to a conversation, right? Don't be like so.

Speaker 2:

This is what I am what I want peace out yeah peace out, like, if you don't offer, don't email me back.

Speaker 1:

No, right, you want to be. You know, I'm open to a conversation. I'm open to to again looking forward to hearing from you back. Here are times and dates. I'm open to again looking forward to hearing from you back. Here are times and dates. I'm available, phone number, all those different things, because again, it's a collaboration, it is really teamwork. You're problem solving, you're trying to come to a compromise, so both parties are winning, right, they want you. If not, they wouldn't have offered you the job.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. Yes, that's a really important thing to remember is that they want you.

Speaker 1:

So they're also willing to do.

Speaker 2:

You know they're not willing to lose you yeah you have to think about in the sense of the employer is like dang. Finally, we got a good candidate that we really want on our team, so they're gonna try to do what they can to keep you agree, agree yeah, so those are the ways to structure this email and some of the main things to think about when negotiating. So, as we wrap up this episode, three things that we want to leave you with.

Speaker 1:

OK, so negotiation is expected. Arminé, do not be afraid, don't be nervous, don't be hesitant, because they're expecting it anyway. It's now really just about your approach expecting it anyway.

Speaker 2:

It's now really just about your approach, yeah, and with that, your approach should be very collaborative, going in with the mindset that this is a win-win situation. You're not competing with the employer, they're on your team, they already offered you the position, they want you on their team, so it's thinking about how can you offer the best value to them and then they can offer the best that they can offer you and that both parties are happy at the end of this negotiation.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and probably one of the most important things is know you know your value, know what you bring, know what you can contribute. Reflect on the amazing qualities that you are going to only execute and bring to this role and to this team. And, of course, do your research, have data, have a number to back you up? Right, don't pull numbers out of thin air. They really don't like that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and with that said, if anybody has any, if you're in the process of negotiation or in the job search process and you're thinking that this is going to come, up soon. You have questions, feel free to email us or reach out to us to do a career counseling session. We're more than happy to support you in this process.