Coffee & Career Hour

Your Boss Won’t Hand You A Syllabus, Sorry

• Armine & Maria Jose

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We explore why grades and right answers don’t translate cleanly into the workplace and how to build the habits that employers actually value. We share stories from our first jobs, talk about generational friction, and offer practical ways to create structure, seek feedback, and grow.

• shifting from answer seeking to critical thinking
• valuing transferable skills from non‑job experiences
• navigating ambiguity without a syllabus
• generational differences in workplace expectations
• building feedback tolerance and resilience
• career readiness starting earlier than college
• creating your own onboarding and structure
• using mentors and community for support
• embracing experimentation over perfection
• mindset shifts for confidence and growth

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You can access free resources or even work with me by visiting my website, careerconfidence.online
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SPEAKER_02:

Fight or flight response, you're freezing because you really aren't sure which direction to take because we're so used to being told like this, this, and that, or here, here, and there. And I think that's where it's like getting to the right answer and being a patient isn't it's great for results and things like that. But life doesn't always, you know, isn't that way.

SPEAKER_00:

We are your hosts. I'm Armina and I'm MJ, two career counselors and friends chatting about all things life and career. So grab a cup of coffee and join us.

SPEAKER_01:

If you ask employers what they want most right now, they'll say critical thinkers, problem solvers, adaptable people. But here's the twist those skills take time, reflection, and experience to build. And we're moving faster than ever.

SPEAKER_02:

That's truly where the disconnect begins, though, because we're entering a new era of work. It's not just about knowing the answers, but it's about knowing how to think.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow, that's so true. Because when we think about school, I mean, think about it. There's a lot of testing, there's a lot of trying to figure out the right answer, getting a grade, right, in our classes. But then how do we transition to the workplace?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. It's it's really like a it's complex because everybody learns at a different pace. But I tend to think that we've adapted to this way of just being the most efficient human beings humanly possible with all the tools we have and the things that we do and strategies and techniques. Our goal is efficiency. It's no longer taking the time to critically analyze how we go there, right? A lot of the time it's just show me how to get there, walk me through, you know, like just tell me one through three, like what do I need to do to get to my end goal? It's not about like, let's take this apart, let's sit down, let's pause, let's reflect. It's very much so like just how do I get to the end part? It's almost that saying of like, they're not enjoying the journey, they're just enjoying the destination.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's honestly, it makes me evoke some kind of reaction in me, honestly, because when you think about a true learning, true performance, right, in a work setting or even in a school setting, like an individual really going through a process to like learn and then perform and do it well, and it turns into like this meaningful experience or meaningful product or results or whatever they're working on, right? It that really does require a lot of time and reflection and and failure, like try it and see what works and what doesn't work, but then the world of work doesn't really give us space for that because everything needs to be done so fast. And then the education system as well, everything is about numbers and grades and tests. So it kind of leaves us professionals as we're trying to navigate the workplace, kind of wondering, like, okay, how do I translate what I'm learning in school to the workplace and how can I be truly a fulfilled and successful professional?

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. I think it has a lot to do with the culture, culture of, you know, as you're growing to enter the workforce and what that environment has looked like for you, but it's also the priorities of different things as well. It's looking at where things have, you know, like what are we emphasizing in this newer generation? It's are we looking at GPA? Are we looking at the activities you're doing? Are we thinking about all these different aspects? And are we prioritizing these core skills that are essential, not only just in the workforce, but in human life?

SPEAKER_01:

You know, that's really interesting that you bring up like GPA and um activities and all these other experiences, because in in my work with clients, what I see a lot a lot of the time is maybe they undervalue those extra activities and hobbies and certain things that they might have done. Um, and on their resume, for example, then they kind of limit their thinking to just past jobs or maybe past internships that they've had that were like formal or paid experiences, and then they forget the value of the skills that they would have developed from other areas of their life. So as a counselor, I'm always telling my clients, think holistically, all the things you've experienced that brought you to this point in your life today, and all of the different skills you've gained from those experiences. Because when you're going into the world of work, there's so many of those transferable skills are valued, right? When employers share what they want, they're talking a lot about those transferable skills like critical thinking, problem solving, collaboration, communication, somebody who's adaptable, somebody who wants to learn. These are such valuable skills. And honestly, not just skills, but like these are ways of being, these are characteristics that a person embodies that employers are really seeking out. And so in my what in my work with clients, it's always reminding them that think about your experiences holistically because it's not just about what jobs and um internships you've had in the past.

SPEAKER_02:

I adore that you mentioned that because I'm thinking a lot about my own experience going from undergrad, well, from honestly from high school, because that's when I started working from high school and what I was learning there in terms of skill set and how I was applying that to, you know, to retail positions, and and I worked at a food place as well. And then thinking about my job as an undergrad and then going to graduate school, and then kind of being like, okay, well, how do I translate a 4.0 to presenting or like whatever it is, right? Um, it's a silly example, but it really I struggled a lot with like, okay, I got good grades, you know, I did well in school. I was a good student. How does that look like being a good employee? What does that look like being a good employee? And I think a lot of it came innately for me just because I was around individuals in my environment that, you know, demonstrated a core professionalism skill sets that I naturally inherited. So I was like, okay, you know, show up to work on time, communicate different things. I also had great leaders or great examples as you know, being first journal throughout school that I was I felt well prepared, but there was still a disconnect for me in terms of like, so what is it, what does being a good student have to do with being a great employee? And how does that look like?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, honestly, yeah. I mean, when I think back, I'm like, I didn't even know what a great employee meant. Like you can't really put that into words until you're in that space and you experience that and you see what's valued in the workplace and so forth. So as a student coming out of college, it was you're entering this completely different world that has different values and expectations than what you've been taught your entire life, especially for those who went from like K through 12, then straight to college, then maybe even straight to grad school. Imagine these people have been in school for like 20 plus years with one set of um standard way to way of doing things. And then now you're going out into the big world of work, and it's very different. So it's scary, and that's where we see a lot of people struggle.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

A lot of new professionals struggle emotionally, not feeling connected to the work's workplace, not knowing how to present themselves, identify what they have to offer. There is a lot of like identity development that happens for new professionals because it's such an unfamiliar environment.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I think that's where a lot of the environment of the person has to do with how they evolve and they present themselves in the workforce. And if we go back to like where students transition the most, right? I'm gonna use students because we're talking about this newer generation. It's in high school as they're transitioning to college because that's where they evolve, right? Even further and beyond. And it's thinking about how are we preparing students for the critical decision of, you know, if they go to college and what does that look like for them and preparing them in career readiness, or if they're going straight out of high school into the workforce, have we prepared them enough for the world of work and to expect the certain expectations that the world of work has, or what are things that we can kind of do differently, or what are we doing well? So it really kind of makes you take a step back to think like, has the education system focused enough on career preparedness as young as possible to make sure that these kids are also having a smooth transition out of high school?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you know, it's it's it's hard because when you think about career readiness, career preparedness, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier about like trying things out, failing, learning from your mistakes, uh reflecting, taking time to develop, right? And in in the way the society and the world of work and the education system, everything is so fast-paced, it doesn't even give even educators the time to invest in the students and allow the students to have their own pace at learning, right? These skills. So it's really hard to even imagine a different way of doing things. But I do think that what we see a lot of the time in a previous episode we talked about with a K through 12 teacher. Um, she was talking about how students are coming out not necessarily feeling ready for college or for the world of work for high school.

SPEAKER_02:

It's reminding me so much of when I wanted to continue to pursue higher education and develop a career readiness curriculum for K through 12, just because it's something that I feel where to have, how do I say this, but to have a smooth experience or I guess less challenging, I believe that fundamentally they need a strong background in what career readiness means and what it looks like. Because we tend to throw these students into these like real-world life situations where they may not be ready just yet to go in, right? They may not have the tools and skills necessary or have the self-reflection or to be able to do life things and to be successful employees. Some may and some just depending on their environments, may have shaped them differently as well. And it's it's I we're talking about this, and I'm like, man, we need some like career readiness, like curriculum. And I that's funny because I I said that when I was thinking about a doctorate, like that would be something I'd want to study or develop or try to embed because it's so needed within this these newer generations.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree because we're seeing that students are gaining great amount of knowledge about different topics and really learning great content, but emotionally and skills way skills based, they're not ready for the world of work. And and a big part of that too is like the generational differences in the world of work too that we're seeing these days. We have what four generations in the workplace now? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Boomers, um, ex millennials, um, and Gen Z.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I guess the upcoming is Gen Alpha.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, okay. Gen Alpha's not in the workplace just yet. Don't scare me, MJ. That's my little toddler right there. But yeah, three or four generations in the workplace. Imagine the differences in values and the differences in the way that they see work too. Like what work means to each generation is different.

SPEAKER_02:

It's funny because it reminds me, um, you know this well, the the history of career development and kind of the different stages of how we got to where we are and what career development means for people, right? In the beginning, we were these individuals that were seen as like the placement people, like we're gonna place you in different jobs and positions and things like that. And then we transition to where the younger generation of that era was like, we want our work to mean something and create an impact. And it feels like we're in a cycle, no point intended. We're coming back to that, where this generation wants, right? Gen Z is focused on like their purpose and their mission and creating an impact, which is great because we are too. There's a lot of us who are there as well, but there's a difference in terms of generation and what that may look like. Whereas um the generations that have come before may value things like consistency, accountability, clocking in on time, being here from like a certain, you know, from like nine to five, rather than like just do your job, right? And just or someone who's like fulfilled with just doing the job and you don't have to be there for a set time. So there's different values that each has that can also can be struggling to communicate when you're working with multiple generations in the workforce as well.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, you know, I'm smiling because when when you were giving the example of uh somebody being present, like from a certain time to a certain time, we both know an individual who has this rule of staying beyond their boss, like making sure that they never leave their job um before their boss leaves. And I I think that's that's such a sweet sentiment, but it's it was so foreign to both of us when we heard it. But this person is from a previous generation, and it just goes to show even something small like that, but like that has so much meaning for this person, right? And and what it represents in terms of their dedication to their company and who they are as a professional. And then for somebody from a different generation, that might not seem such like a valuable offering or skill set or something that you're doing, right? But then the previous generation thinks of it very differently. So it's very interesting to see those differences between the workplace, but it does cause a rift, especially when the previous generation is hiring the newer generation. And the newer generation has all these different expectations of what it's supposed to look like and feel like. And coming from, if we're talking specifically, let's say Gen Z right now, who's entering the workforce, if we're coming from very structured systems like an education system where there's a right and wrong answer, there's always somebody telling you what to do, you have assignments to submit and so forth, and then you're going into workspace and there's more ambiguity and there's less direction. Bosses don't usually, many most bosses don't want to quote unquote babysit, right? Or give assignments and be very um involved. They want to be able to direct and have the project be done. Um and so there's a big difference between the systems that we're coming from and going into this ambiguous space.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'm gonna silently raise my hand because I'm one of those individuals who just loves to understand structure. And for me, it comes, I think, from being this excellent student of like, I know what the syllabus is, and I know we're doing on week four. You know what I mean? Like, I know what to expect. Whereas when I came into the workforce, which is honestly like five years ago, um, if we're thinking, you know, after my my higher education degrees, I struggled with that because I worked with different individuals who had different styles who were coming from different generations, and each one had a different sentiment. And when I was told, like, you know, like your first day at work, and there was like no formal training for different jobs, like I was struck because I was like, I don't know what to do, and like I felt unprepared. Yeah, and I I used to think it was something wrong with me. Like I wasn't ready, and it was almost like I was proving myself right. Like, oh, you see, like you aren't enough. What you know isn't enough. This degree isn't as much as we thought it was because you're still confused or you're you're not sure what to do or what direction to take. But to be completely honest, it comes with experience and time that you strengthen these skills of taking initiative, understanding how the world of work works, especially in the industry that you're in. And I've grown to be able to create that structure for myself without having to know and like what to do or what to be told. But I think that a lot of individuals who are newly coming into the workforce, they need some type of like direction because they have lived their lives with like people telling them what to do or like how to do this and like follow the rules and all these different things where you give them space to be creative and it's almost like it's too much space.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. I resonate with that too because I remember my first big girl job right after college and grad school, and I felt the same way. I remember I was just given the catalog, and I was like, all right, go for it, read the catalog, and that's your training. And I was like, what? There's no like formal training, there's no plan in place. Uh, and then every job I had after that was the same way. And eventually I just started creating my own trainings. I was like, you know what? I am gonna make this happen because I felt like there was too much ambiguity as well for somebody who's just coming in and needs to learn the ropes. But honestly, that's how a lot of places function because that's what bosses want. They want somebody who can think on their own, somebody who can problem solve on their own with limited direction, because that is why they're hiring you to get the job done, right? But it's hard for an incoming generation who isn't used to this kind of space. And another factor that really contributes to that is all of the information we have accessible to us these days, with just being able to Google everything, now AI and Chat GPT, everything. Honestly, the amount of information available to us makes us less able to sit with the uncertainty and try things and fail at them. 100%.

SPEAKER_02:

It's like when you self-diagnose. Like you just like, I have a cough, and then like Google tells you you're gonna die. You know, like it's just it's information overload, and it also makes you freeze, you know, with your fight or flight response, you're freezing because you really aren't sure which direction to take because we're so used to being told like this, this, and that, or here, here, and there. And I think that's where it's like getting to the right answer and being a patient isn't it's great for results and things like that, but life doesn't always, you know, isn't that way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and actually, a lot of times there is no right answer. All the answers are right.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, you know how many times I catch myself saying, Well, it depends. Yeah, and then I'm like, it depends on this, it depends on that. And I think that's where life is uncertain, and you have to learn to be uncomfortable with uncertainty. Comfortable with answer. Oh dang, yes, you see, look, that's my subconscious thought.

SPEAKER_01:

I love it. It's hard, it's not maybe it's not something that comes naturally, and then of course, just being um trained in the education system to uh get the right answer and get a good grade makes us this way, but the way that's why it's so hard to transition to the big world after college or high school.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, there's there's a lot of like space to grow in in what we teach, you know, the younger generations and how they evolve and become prepared for the workforce. I think something that like really sticks out to me just because personally too, it was something I had to learn was like understanding feedback and what that looks like. Um, especially for someone who was like a you know, like very well uh I don't want to say top or her class, but like I I I was a great student. And I never I was never I never failed in school. So it was feedback was weird, you know, because I'm like, oh, I've only ever gotten positive feedback. And then when you get constructive feedback for the first time, it's like, what did I do wrong? Like I failed, the world is ending, and you know, like I'm very dramatic in so many different things. So you could just only imagine. I'm like, oh my gosh, like the lightning's gonna hit me, like the world, you know, the ceiling channel's gonna fall.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think that's also something too when we're when we're constantly living in a world that's quickly validating you and just giving you immediate assurance, like I'm gonna give them give you a like on your post the second you do it, right? Like that social media is evolving to be that too. And when we get feedback and things like that, like it's just it's disheartening for some of us. And I am including myself because you know it's always a point of growth.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah. It's always we're we're learning, and all of the things we talk about on this pod, we're we're experiencing and learning as we're talking about them too. We're not coming at it from like, well, we're evolved and you know, we we know everything. No, absolutely not. Uh feedback, yeah, is definitely hard to receive, but also some of the best experiences that we can have, right? To grow as professionals and just as people in general. So it's so needed, but it is hard to accept because when we think about, I remember when they started the gold star or whatever uh system in school where like if you raise your hand and asked a question or participated, you get, you know, the gold star on the board and stuff. And then like the person who had the most by the end of the week would, I don't know, get an applause or whatever they would get from the class. I don't remember. I just remember like that visual representation of like, oh look, like I'm getting positive validation for doing a particular behavior.

SPEAKER_02:

It sounds like a sales floor. Like when you like if we're in business and you're like, who made the most money? Like they get free lunch today or like a pizza party.

SPEAKER_01:

I like that. Well, that's I really remember when they uh started doing that in K through 12. And now it's evolved into social media, is doing that. You know what else is doing that that I've realized? Chat GPT does a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, it's built, it's built to positively reinforce you. It's built. No matter what you say, it would like reply back with that's such a great idea or whatever. Man, I misspell things all the time in there, and they're like, you're such a great spell. You know, like it's meant to like please you, it's but it's so bad.

SPEAKER_01:

Look at the direction it's headed, and how I can have a really, really independent.

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry, I'm having this idea. I'm like, we should try asking it for feedback. We could and see what it says. Absolutely. I mean, that's kind of scary asking a chat bot. Actually, never mind, let's not do that.

SPEAKER_01:

We'll do that offline and then decide if we want to bring it online.

SPEAKER_02:

But that's one too, because it uh I'm thinking just about like within self-development of career development, is how you are receptive to the feedback, right? So like hearing it is one thing, but it's also how you respond.

SPEAKER_00:

Right?

SPEAKER_02:

It's like you can I can either go sob in my car for 30 minutes and just be like, oh my god, I failed, or I can be like, you know what? I'm open to learning how I can grow from this space. I'm open to understanding, you know, like how I can see that may have been, you know, taken the wrong way, or I could have done something differently in a sense. So I think it's also the receptiveness and how we choose to respond and not react.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And these are all life skills, right? Life skills that we develop through experience, and that's the hard part is the way the US culture is built, is we probably go to college too soon, sooner than we're ready. Then we enter the workforce sooner than we're ready, all confused about our career goals and don't have any idea who the heck we are and what our values are. And then we have to spend our career while we're trying to advance in our career, is also where while we're trying to figure out who we are, yeah, what's important to us, it's it's a lot. No wonder everybody's always drained and exhausted.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think that's where these like middle life, quarter life, ten-year life crisis are coming from, because we're constantly like, oh, this is not who I am, or I don't know who I am, and I don't know what I want to do. And I do believe um college happens a little too early, just having experienced it myself and all the questions I had, and I felt underprepared in so many ways, but that's like, you know, quote unquote, what you're supposed to do and how to have a better life. That's what I was told by my family and what made to believe, but it's it's really difficult sometimes. And I think if you're someone who's who's navigating the space and you're trying to figure all of this out, you're not alone. Um, there are individuals who are excited to support you and help you, but you should also know that there's individuals who also expect a lot out of you too.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. So, MJ, how do we bridge this gap? Like what needs to change? What can our listeners take away from this too? We can't change the system, we can't change when college happens and when people enter the workforce and all of that. But what can our listeners take away with them today?

SPEAKER_02:

So, one, I think there's a lot of communication that kind of needs to happen, right? It can't just be like you and I have this conversation and then it's like tupped away. It's like we need when there's opportunity to share it wider, right? That's something that we can do as well. Bridging the gap doesn't just stop or doesn't just start at like just us being like, hey, R ⁇ A, like I think this, this, and that, or like having a comp like a one-off of an employer or someone who's in the field, but it it really is just like thinking about how are the different minds, including parents, into the conversation, because that's a huge part or the person's family, right? Or the families, thinking about communities as a whole because of people spend time in their community, the school system, the workforce, it's all micro and macro environments that impact the human being, right? So we have to have an open dialogue of what that can look like. And I think it's just because we're on different levels of what we value and who we are. Going back to what we're talking about in the beginning. But if you are a young professional listening to this and you're like struggling and you're like freaking out, pulling out your hair, well, welcome to the club, because so am I. But I want you to know that you can always connect with others, individuals who are excited to support you, right? Mentors exist, people who want to help others exist in your community, in your space, online, even though we're also just talking about being online. And you need to trust your gut and think about like what think about. I know that's one of the skills that we're talking about, but think about what is beyond just this one answer, or how can you evolve from that? And if we go back to being a toddler, we all ask the question why way too many times when we were young. Go back to doing that, go back to questioning things, trying to figure out the different responses, you know, and that's something that I think will help. And then getting comfortable with the imperfect world and uncertainty. It is it goes beyond just being, you know, perfectly polished and always having the right answer and having all your pencils sharpened, but just saying, like, it's okay to fumble, it's okay to get constructive feedback, it's okay to not know everything and be unprepared.

SPEAKER_01:

Absolutely. Ultimately, it's a mindset shift. Yeah, right. Uh, getting comfortable with the with ambiguity, getting comfortable with failure is a mindset shift that's hard to implement because of how we've been conditioned, but it can happen because life is uncertain and you don't have to have an answer all of the time. You don't have to have the right answer all of the time. And it's a matter of just experiencing that ambiguity and experiencing the failure and learning the resilience that comes with that, and um, constantly working on your mindset that's gonna help you take action and try again and improve and grow. So listen to different professionals, mentors, podcasts, every podcast that I listen to that's like a successful person is always talking about how they failed in the beginning and how they had to work through those challenges and work on their mindset to advance. So I think that applies in every aspect of life, right? Regardless of what you're trying to do with your career, regardless of where you're at, whether you're still a student or you're in the professional space, getting comfortable with the ambiguity and working on your mindset is really what's going to help you grow and advance and move forward and find a fulfilling life. Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy our show, we ask that you write a review on Apple Podcasts to help us reach more people looking to level up their career.

SPEAKER_00:

Want to connect with us?

SPEAKER_02:

Be sure to follow our Instagrams and websites.

SPEAKER_01:

Follow CareerRise on Instagram for career advice and motivation to help you stay up to date on all things career. Be sure to also visit my website, careerise.org to book a career counseling package and access free career resources. My goal is to help you clarify your goals, make a plan, and feel confident in your career journey.

SPEAKER_02:

You can follow me on Instagram at Career ConfidentLatina for your daily dose of career advice and my journey as a first generation Latina counselor. You can access free resources or even work with me by visiting my website, careerconfidence.online. I want to help you grow your confidence and help you reach your career dreams. Adios