In this episode we welcome Dennis Kain, MHA FACHE, the Senior Vice President of Executive Search Services with Kirby Bates Associates. In a conversation that feels more like a reunion of old friends, Anthony and Dennis explore the twists and turns of a 40-year career span starting with a healthcare management degree from George Washington University, extensive leadership experience in healthcare operations, hospital management and national consulting, and his expertise working within provider settings, including serving as a hospital CEO.
Dennis and Anthony travel through the nuances of professional growth and go through the art of standing out as an internal candidate. They reference Dennis' recent article in Healthcare Executives, "Stand Out as an Internal Candidate," and the four success tips for moving ahead in an organization. It's about understanding the market, knowing when to make a lateral move, and navigating the silent periods of the job search process. Whether you're looking to impress in your next interview or you're curious about the strategic importance of networking, this is a great listen for early careerists.
In this episode we welcome Dennis Kain, MHA FACHE, the Senior Vice President of Executive Search Services with Kirby Bates Associates. In a conversation that feels more like a reunion of old friends, Anthony and Dennis explore the twists and turns of a 40-year career span starting with a healthcare management degree from George Washington University, extensive leadership experience in healthcare operations, hospital management and national consulting, and his expertise working within provider settings, including serving as a hospital CEO.
Dennis and Anthony travel through the nuances of professional growth and go through the art of standing out as an internal candidate. They reference Dennis' recent article in Healthcare Executives, "Stand Out as an Internal Candidate," and the four success tips for moving ahead in an organization. It's about understanding the market, knowing when to make a lateral move, and navigating the silent periods of the job search process. Whether you're looking to impress in your next interview or you're curious about the strategic importance of networking, this is a great listen for early careerists.
no-transcript. Please leave a message after the tone when you have finished. Please hang up or press the pound key for more options. Thank you, thank you, hello all. Hello, hi, dennis, anthony, was this on your calendar?
Speaker 3:It was on my calendar. Someone scheduled another call on my calendar, okay, and it was supposed to end 15 minutes before this.
Speaker 1:Oh okay. So I freaked out because I knew you had an original conflict with, I think, the executive committee or something, and Adrian took it off your calendar and then I put it back on your I don't know. So then I went into panic mode.
Speaker 2:I like Anthony's headphones better than mine these are 1970s or 1980s era, they look terrific.
Speaker 1:Very professional.
Speaker 3:I knew I'd get to use them one day, because they sat in a drawer for like 30 years.
Speaker 1:You knew podcasts were going to be a thing.
Speaker 3:There you go. So yeah, they look really professional. Well, they were, but they're old, anyway.
Speaker 2:well, Dennis, I'm sorry I'm late. No problem at all.
Speaker 1:Only three minutes Anthony.
Speaker 2:Professors get 15 minutes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they do Well, melissa, go ahead, I'll let you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Anthony kind of wanted to go rogue for this one, so really no set. He'll kind of go off of the questions that he has, basically just talking about your history, like maybe mentioning you went to the KME accredited program, george Washington University, throwing that in. There is always nice, um, kind of just go through that and then he'll kind of just go through a couple. Basically, what you guys talked about last time through the pre-call was was perfect, um, so I just touched through then and then, if the conversation leads elsewhere, like he said, he doesn't like try to really stick to the questions more.
Speaker 1:We try to do this different than our webinars and other things that we do, just a conversation between friends on a common topic, um, that we hope that the students are interested in listening to. So what will happen is, anthony, I'll kind of start by saying thank you to me. So it might sound a little bit awkward, but what I do is I go back and then I listen to the sessions and I try to tie in some of the topics and then a little bit of your bio in my intro recording part. So I'll kind of splice that before your kind of audio piece with you and Anthony, I'll kind of be rogue in the background. I'm going to turn off my camera. So then it really just feels like the two of you talking.
Speaker 1:Like Anthony said, you guys talked about last time. If there's anything you want to restate you know at the end or if I hear any you know random noises I might try to ask you to restate a question, although it doesn't prefer that because you know it ruins the natural flow of the conversation. But if there's anything you're like oh, I really didn't want to say that, or I want to kind of rephrase that we could always readdress that at the end and we will let you listen to the podcast after it's done.
Speaker 3:So if you go, wait a minute, I really shouldn't have said that we can yes, no problem making any edits afterwards too.
Speaker 1:Once once we again. I get to the the raw cut audio, um, and then just make sure, like cell phone dings, email notifications, those are kind of tricky for me to edit out. I'm really talking to Anthony Making sure all those are turned up.
Speaker 3:Good Ping, my team's thing. Let's see if it works. I get hollered at for this, Dennis too.
Speaker 1:It's like the hardest thing for me to edit out and it's always usually in like the most important part of when you're saying something I didn't hear anything.
Speaker 3:There it goes.
Speaker 1:I can't hear it. As long as I can't hear it, that's fine.
Speaker 3:Definitely do not disturb.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to keep it.
Speaker 3:He tries to keep it within like a 30 30 minute radio so we try to keep it in mind like a commute to work. And, dennis, I have one question just to clarify, because I, like your bio, reads tyler and company, but would you rather us kind of refer to Kirby Bates and Associates? Is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's for the last four years. That's the way that it's been. We got merged into Kirby Bates some years ago by our parent company. Okay.
Speaker 3:All right, so I'll introduce you as a senior vice president, with Kirby Bates and Associates and Executive Search, and then, you know, we'll just go into some questions.
Speaker 1:I would try to tie in the beginning. When I listen back, I like to hear your connect. I know you do this sometimes. You usually get this your connection to Donna. I think sometimes it's nice for the listeners to hear how you know each other. Ok, try to get the personal connection in there.
Speaker 3:Am I loud enough? Melissa? Is everything okay? Sand levels Okay.
Speaker 1:Yep, just make sure try not to do the the lean back yeah.
Speaker 3:I know I do the lean back. I can't even know that thing.
Speaker 1:I get that, hey well his microphone is stationary, dennis, so when he moves sometimes away from the microphone, his face fades. Yeah, any other questions for me? Logistically, no, okay, I'm going to go incognito and I will see you when it's over and let me put you on hold for one second.
Speaker 3:Okay, all right, sounds good. Um, dennis, thank you very much for participating on our on master your health care career podcast. It's great for you to be here today. Thanks for having me. Dennis, you and I have known each other for a while and I think some of it is from the local ACHE chapter here in the Philadelphia area, but I think part of it was we met when you were the CEO at Lower Bucks Hospital in Philadelphia area, which is an interesting kind of part because you were a graduate of the MHA program at George Washington University, a CAMI accredited program. And where did you go immediately after graduation and then how did you wind up at Lower Bucks and then how?
Speaker 2:did you wind up at Lowerbox? Well, my dad was a physician leader and he suggested a career in health system management. Going way back, did undergraduate work at Lafayette, was a history major. So I went to graduate school at GW and from there I worked in both nonprofit and for-profit health systems along with a publicly traded firm called Medic, and then I served as the CEO of the health system in Pennsylvania for eight years and then I became an executive search consultant for the second half of my career. So I've enjoyed placing CEOs and other C-suite leaders for health systems around the country over the years.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so you went from your MHA into consulting.
Speaker 2:No, I went from the MHA. I worked as administrative resident first at a multi-hospital system called RH Medical which had four low for-profit hospitals up in the Philly area, and then St Christopher's Hospital for Children bought them. Believe it or not, they floated a bond issue in 1980. And then it became this for-hospital system became non-profit overnight. So I worked with them for a total of about nine years. Then I worked at medic where we had management contracts for hospitals and other consulting things. We developed a lithotripsy, lithotripsy uh center and also we did a national uh imaging center using the brand new thing called mri the time. So we opened up a bunch of imaging centers around the country and from there one of our management contracts was at Lower Bucks and that's how I started over at Bristol, Pennsylvania, oh, wow.
Speaker 3:Okay, executive search is a really interesting kind of place and position and for the folks who are listening on the call, today we're not going to talk so much about the executive search process because we're really looking at the people who are early careerists and how do you move up from there. But I do think executive search is really one of those big unknowns for people. And when you move into that executive search, what are some of the interesting parts that you've seen about recruiting people for roles? What are some of the really parts that distinguish your different candidates as they kind of move up?
Speaker 2:Well, it is interesting to see it from the other side. You've got it exactly right. So, after having worked for 20 some years in operations and leadership on the provider side, then to step into the executive search side, and just you just see the world and the market from a different lens lens. So for me, I'd say there were two major league observations. One is that there are potential candidates out there that do their job, that keep their head down like I did. You do your accomplishments and you don't pay a bit of attention to the marketplace, so there's very little networking going on. On the other side, there are some people that haven't seen a job they didn't like or didn't think that they were qualified for, so they apply to every one of them. And then there are some folks in the middle that kind of keep an eye out. But in most of the discussions I've had with grad students along the way, it's a suggestion that they keep their eyes on the market. Don't go overboard, but don't be an ostrich either. Keep an eye out there, have relationships perhaps with two or three different search firms and just keep an eye on things. This is my suggestion, but don't become that person that applies for each and everything that comes down the line.
Speaker 2:The other point is that when you see a profile that's written up by either an organization for a job or from an executive search company, they put a lot of time and effort into that profile. Read it carefully because there's a certain expectation of what they want not only from somebody at the job, but also what they want qualifications coming into the job. So when I was running a hospital I used to love to promote folks from one role to another because we knew their gifts they might not have matched exactly. When you get into executive search you're working for a client. Oftentimes particularly search committees of CEOs of met up with board members. They want specific backgrounds, specific examples, specific experience. I call it round peg, round hole to complete that job. So if you think about bringing somebody in with a background that's a little different, you better be right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. Well, now that goes back into you know the article that I read that you had written in Healthcare Executive in May and June of 2023. And we're going to try to get permission from ACHE to kind of put that into our podcast so people can look at it. But it was May, june, 2023, and it was called Stand Out as an Internal Candidate. And what really kind of hit me about this article is how do you get ahead within your organization? How do you really kind of position yourself to when it comes time for the senior executives in the company, who are looking around for the next person to kind of lead an initiative? How do they know to call you? What led you to write this article, dennis?
Speaker 2:Well, the environment has changed, in my view, just watching this thing over the course of years. For several reasons. The market for internal candidates, I believe, is a better one now than it used to be. The continued turnover of CEO level obviously creates opportunities for people moving through the roles. But this, combined with the acute workforce shortages and challenges created by the pandemic, the cost of recruitment, the focus on developing a more diverse leadership team, these have all combined to make a more competitive environment that really favorably leans toward internal candidates.
Speaker 2:Again, in my view, it's teed up nicely for folks on an internal basis, for the right opportunity to put their hat in the ring, if you will, and reach out to be considered Now how to stand out, how to position yourself. That was the point of the art, which is basically to say, okay, before you apply for a role in your own organization, talk to a couple of folks that you trust and ask them. You know how are you perceived, find out what the perception of you is like in the organization and do you need to develop certain critical skills. But when you get to a point where there's a job posted and you like it and you think you're ready for it, then that's when it moves forward. You put your hat in the ring and you determine how does this role fit with the health system's overall strategy? The advantage you have is having worked there. You know what the organization's mission is, you know what they are trying to achieve and you've actually lived it, so you learn about the job.
Speaker 2:You learn about the interviewing process because you can talk to the HR department that's posted the role. You're right there, which is just terrific, terrific. And from there you learn about who's going to be doing the interviews. You do the research on the folks that are going to be interviewing you, but don't assume that they know what your accomplishments are. There's two parts of this. One, if I'm an internal candidate and I've been with an organization for oh, I don't know more than 10 years, folks might remember me more when I first started and may not be aware of what I've accomplished recently. So that when you get ready to go for it, you want to be sure that you take it like you're going to another organization to do it. Don't assume that people know what you've done. Tell them. So it's your opportunity to discuss your most recent accomplishments.
Speaker 3:Your first step is a really interesting one, which you talk about find out how you're perceived, and you talked about that and I kind of look at that as a really interesting part, because when you come in as a student which a lot of people they graduate from their healthcare management programs, they do their residency, sometimes they get hired on after their residency, but there are frequently that perception that what people know is, oh, they're the student and how do you kind of move out of that? How you're the student part, that's that whole part in number one. That's really important.
Speaker 2:Well, the best example I have. It was all the way back when I started and a fellow that was in purchasing looked at me and laughed every once in a while because he had started in this hospital when he was much younger and he was still known even though he was in purchasing. He was much younger and he was still known, even though he was in purchasing, as the kid from the laundry and ultimately he ended up being in charge of the entire supply chain coordination for the VHA. Now it's busy down in Dallas, but you know, for years and years, as far as his original place of employment was, he was the kid from the laundry.
Speaker 2:So what I've seen is that, you know, organizations will use an executive search form, even if they know that there's going to be internal candidates. They want to measure it and they want to have the opportunity for internal candidates to go through the process. And what I have found is that it's been an eye-opening experience for some of the folks on these interview panels to say, whoa, this person is way farther along in their development than I expected. And, based on that and what we're seeing straight away, that's had an impact on the decision whether to hire internally or hire an external and we measure external and internals to the same profile straight away. But when you get to the interview stage, who knows what's going to happen?
Speaker 2:But for those folks that have the internal relationships, the internal networks and they know the organization, they already have a step up in my view. So for the early careerists oftentimes they get known through volunteering for task forces, for teams, some improvement opportunity and maybe they even have an opportunity to lead one. Either way, there are methods with which you can find out how folks think about you and it's a good start to say you know someone comes to you and says you really don't want to go for that job because you need to work on these things first. That's probably the greatest advice you could ever get from someone that would be that honest with you the greatest advice you could ever get from someone that would be that honest with you.
Speaker 3:And Dennis, you know that moves into the second part, which was learn everything about the job and the interview process. And one of the stories that really kind of when I was in that stage where I was moving up within an organization I won't name the health system that this was in, but the CIO role kind of opened up and I talked to a few people about it and one of the comments was Anthony, you definitely don't want to do that job. That's the job. When people can't get their things accomplished, they blame the information technology department. And I remember after talking to a couple of people I realized that that was just not a political position that I really want to stick myself in at that particular time. But that that ability to have honest conversations with other people in the organization I think you know is what you're really kind of talking about creating those relationships that people can talk to you. You know, not just about how you're perceived but, number two, everything that they know about the job process.
Speaker 2:It's valuable. I mean just that story is so valuable to ask and get information back to people that you trust within an organization. It's just you can't put, you can't quantify it right. I mean we've had individuals who raise their hand for a role and just didn't seem to have all the chops for it but did well with the interviews and did well within the process overall and ultimately the organization said you know, we want to give this person a chance, but what we've decided to do is to provide some coaching for that person. So for the early career of stepping into a leadership opportunity where the organization has that capability, you know, for six months to a year.
Speaker 2:I mean our organization does that as well. We're an executive search firm. We also provide interim and we also provide coaching. But my point is that there are certain times where a health system really wants to promote from within if they possibly can. It's a good message to the community. It's a good message to the marketplace that we stand by not only good recruitment but retention. It's a good retention mechanism to say join us, you will have opportunities to grow your career here, you don't have to go upstairs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and, like you said, it's a good, it's a great feeling for employees to know that there are opportunities for improvement and advancement within the organization. Your third item in the article so one was find out how you're perceived. Second one is learn everything about the job and the interview process. And your third item was balance familiarity with professionalism, balance, familiarity with professionalism. Again, a little story from my own career is what I remember especially. You know there's there's fun times when you're in the 20, you're in your twenties and you're growing your career and you're also growing your network playing softball with the hospital softball team. I don't know if those still exist anymore, but there's a hospital softball team, hospital basketball team. I remember one place I got picked to be Santa Claus for the holiday Christmas party and it was just such an incredibly part where you're taking that familiarity and balancing it with a level of professionalism. And I think the important part there is make sure you have that balance.
Speaker 2:So and I'm sure you've seen some careers get derailed because there wasn't necessarily that balance that occurred- Right, and again for the early careers that you're mentioning if you are able to participate in an interview process in an organization where you've been for a year, two, three, whatever that be, to maintain that decorum, to maintain that professionalism, get in the room, answer the questions, explain to them who you are, what you're about, don't let your hair down, type thing, because some folks will not react well to that thinking. You're just simply playing on the fact that you're here already.
Speaker 3:You have a sub-point under three and that gets at what you're just saying, which is approach the interview as if you are an outsider. So don't make sure you know that you're serious about what the interview that you're going on and the position you're looking for, but don't come in with ohim, you know how are you doing and um, that, that, um, for me, use your familiarity to kind of understand what's going on, but don't look like you're glanhan glanhanding at the interview process that's.
Speaker 2:And if you find that this role has been the organization, decided department and an executive search firm, you're told by the HR department that it's Ajax. You make contact with them straight away. I mean, that's all absolutely kosher to reach out to the executive search representative involved in the actual recruitment and you make that introduction. Ultimately, as I mentioned, it will be good in your career to have ongoing relationships with three or four different search firms along the way. So reaching out to them is certainly fine. All I will say is that there are certain times during a search where things get quiet I call it radio silence and it comes with the territory, so that after you've done your interview, know that they'll probably be interviewing others and just be patient and it's okay.
Speaker 3:It's a tough part and, having been through different searches in my own career, that radio silence part really just drives you nuts, because you really get interested in the position. You kind of feel like I can see myself in there and then you don't hear anything, uh, for a while. And you could.
Speaker 2:You could blow it at that point too, and I'm sure you've seen that occur yeah, uh, we tend, as humans, we tend to connect dots that, uh, in the absence of information, or invent dots which, uh, really can be, um, well dangerous for lack of a better term inappropriate. So what we try to do is to explain that there will be times where it does get quiet, but that's okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the interesting part that you and I, when we were talking before about this is you talked about you should reach out. If you're an internal candidate and there is a search firm, that you still should reach out to the search firm and have some discussions within there as well too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, it's okay. As a matter of fact, it saves a lot of people a lot of time if we're still, if the executive search company is still putting together the profile. They might need a little more time to even get back to you simply because they're gathering that information, but they're glad that you reached out and they will share that profile review once it's approved and then start that process.
Speaker 3:Ask poignant questions. So again, it was a sub something. You have four main points that you're getting at, but one of your other points in there is to ask poignant questions. How do you create a poignant question as you go into the interview process?
Speaker 2:Well, it's an interesting word, Well thought out. One have some questions out. One have some questions. There's nothing worse than when an interview panel has asked their questions and they look to the candidate and say do you have any questions? And the candidate goes no, so I had. Well, here's another one.
Speaker 2:A candidate was asked a question from the EVP of the health system Tell me something that has humbled you. And the candidate said I can't think of it. So you know, that's when you get a call from the client straight away saying you're not going to believe this. In this case, you want to have two or three questions well thought out ahead of time. Now, what can they be? I have two or three questions well thought out ahead of time. Now, what can they be?
Speaker 2:Well, what would be your definition of success for the person that takes this role in a year? You know what are you looking for. Tell me what your vision is about this role. I mean, that's one of the classic ones, but it really gets to the heart of the matter, doesn't it? Well, we need a strategic plan. All right, that's fine, we understand. Or we need these metrics to be hit, or at least a couple of them, within X months. So there's one In terms of development for the early careerists. It might be a question along the line of you know, if this comes to fruition and I take this role, I'm still going to want to continue my continuing education. If you will and talk about something of that nature, they can see that you're committed to the field right. And another question could be along the line of the mission or the strategy in the organization. Up to now we've been doing it this way or we've been approaching it this way. Do you think that the organization will continue with a strategy going forward?
Speaker 3:Yeah, Dennis, one of the questions that I think is when people are kind of approaching any job is salary and compensation. Hey, you come in at a student, all right, you get a bump up on your first job because they do give you, you know, here's what the position kind of pays and the salary range that it's in. But moving up further, people kind of sometimes look at that and go well, we were paying. Susie X.
Speaker 3:We don't need to pay her fully Y, but we can give her X and a 20% increase, although the role might be higher. How do you kind of work through an internal candidate, as they're talking about compensation, so that they can accurately or fully negotiate that part based off of what the role is calling for and what their skills kind of bring into it?
Speaker 2:Well, with social media these days, there's lots of ways to find out what the market is for a specific role and having facts is all softly held right. So let's just profoundly say that this is a director role and it has responsibility for this type of a portfolio of revenues, expenses and people. And, like I said, there's a lot of places now where you can research that and be able to articulate it back the other way and share it, say well, in the homework that I've done, it appears as if this particular type of role, this size and all the rest of it, is earning X and you put it simply on the table when you and I back in the day with the ACHE negotiating seminar. I still have the card in my wallet and they gave you a couple of phrases that you could say right and um.
Speaker 2:One was you never know until you ask. So that's the more benign side. The other one is more along the line of where they make an offer to look straight in the eye and say you got to do better than that. That's a a little bit hard, but you never know until you ask. The easiest way is to ask the question. You know, hey, I've done some homework and looked at some of this and you know. Perhaps you can advise me. Or are you finding the same with your compensation consultants?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and that's one of the arguments, too, as to why sometimes growing within your own organization is harder than jumping around from place to place. And you know, what do you see as the pros and cons on both kind of approaches for the young careers that's out there?
Speaker 2:It still applies to a certain degree. It depends on the organization. For me, um, right now, there are certain states in the union, certain towns and certain states where you're not allowed to ask what are you thinking right? So the question becomes what are your expectations for the vote, as a way of you know, with all the gender issues and everything else, of blasting through that type of anchor holding people back from whatever salary equity there should be. So the expectation question is really the key to the matter. I have done some homework on this and you know from what I've seen in the marketplace, you know I would expect that this should pay out. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Let me just go through the four points again just to remind everyone find out how you're perceived, learn everything about the job and interview process. Number three balance familiarity with professionalism. And ending number four, seek out the executive search firm and have some conversations in there and understand where it's going. So those are the four key points. There's a few others that you've kind of talked about in there. Well, you know, I think internal advancement is really critical for people as they kind of move through. It's while people talk about not wanting to spend their full careers at any one organization. If you can show, even when you're going to an other organization, that you've been promoted or given additional responsibilities along the way, it makes you a far more attractive candidate.
Speaker 2:I agree, my opening act at one hospital in the health system was for nine years, but I don't think I had the same job for more than two of those years, so it was always something different and that's to your whole point. So there are ways of getting different experiences and then leveraging that. When you're able to discuss it with others, you know, yes, it was the same employer, but no, it was a different job.
Speaker 3:It's funny, Dennis, mine as well. My opening act was the same type of thing. We went from an administrative resident to an analyst, to a senior analyst, to a manager, to a director, and it was interesting how kind of in different departments and you jump around. But it's so true, how kind of in different departments and you jump around, but it's so true. There's also something to be said about the other person who maybe only spends one or two years at an organization and you look at their resume and it's like, well, wait a minute, you were at health system A and then you were a physician practice and within a span of 10 years you jumped five or six different places. The negative connotations around that, Dennis, do you want to comment on that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a certain amount of movement that's expected early and the goal there, of course, is that you're learning different things. I've had folks that say, look, I've got the provider's side on the hospital. I wanted to get them through the practice, I wanted to get them through the practice, I wanted to get the payer side. So you know touching the different bases, and now I'm prepared to do the following. But I did it all on purpose. So at some point you know, to be at a place for five years after having a few stops of you know two years or so would be very helpful, to be sure, because other than that it would get looked at as a job popper. That does have its own negative connotation.
Speaker 2:But early on we're not on a career ladder per se. We're on a career lattice. We're always looking to move up, and sometimes even sideways, but if we want to get additional experience for a certain reason, that was part of our plan. That's terrific.
Speaker 3:And that's a good point, you know. Back to the salary part is sometimes you might actually take a place where the salary is not a big jump but you're learning a whole other set of skills and experience around there. That makes you more valuable in the long run.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, dennis, as always, it valuable in the long run. That's right. Yeah, Dennis, as always, it's so much fun talking to you and I love. I know you'll probably be at ACHE's Congress in a couple of weeks, so we'll get to see each other again there as well. It's always fun running into you and, you know, I think as I think about someone who really has kind of taken networking to heart, which is how do you help other people along the process? I've always found that with you and myself, and you know, coming to you for advice and thoughts about different types of things has always been helpful for me. So again, appreciate your time here today. Anything, let me, let me kind of throw one more softball your way and hopefully you'll hit it out of the park for us as we approach spring training right now for the Major League Baseball. The importance of CAMI accreditation when a student goes to a graduate program. You yourself went to a CAMI accredited program. How does that help people move forward in their career?
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting I've had the opportunity to serve on advisory boards for some graduate programs, including the University of Scranton and Dr Dan West, and also currently down at Johns Hopkins, and so I'm very impressed with the level that the graduate programs are going to close the loop, that we're teaching this stuff and we show that all these lessons I'll use that term for a minute all the things that we're trying to get across have actually been digested, whether it's here in the academic, in the classroom, or whether it's out in the residency, and then you're utilizing the preceptors and again keeping, closing that loop and documenting. So it's obviously a little different experience than when I went, but the point is that they're always looking to improve their curriculum, make it relevant and make sure that what they're providing is making its way and the students gain that experience, they gain those credentials and off they go.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, dennis. I think it's that level of surety that comes with I'm going to a good graduate program. There's always looking at trying to improve and trying to get better, and then I think the market kind of responds and goes hey, we're looking at a student who's gone through a leading program and trying to kind of figure out how to move forward. The surety that we have with that, that student, that early careerist is, is in there.
Speaker 2:so yeah, the academy presentation is very, very important, dennis, as always.
Speaker 3:Thank you again for your time today, and uh look forward to seeing you in a couple weeks you take care of you, thank you melissa, are you back? I'm here, okay, that was great. That was good, Dennis. Thank you, I think it was a great call. I kept repeating the four steps just so people get them in their mind, but you know, I think we went through those really, really well and I loved your transitions in between too Great, well, I'm glad you liked it.
Speaker 2:When you started about baseball, I thought we went through those really really well, and I loved your transitions in between. Too Great, well, I'm glad you liked it. When you started about baseball, I thought we were going down a different path.
Speaker 3:We would talk about athletes that never got booed in Philadelphia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, got lots of things we could talk about. All right. Well, thanks again for the opportunity and good luck with everything that you do when you come back for the Congress. I know you'll have lots of ideas. So, melissa, hang on. Okay, very well.
Speaker 1:Take care and I'll be in touch with the first round of audio drafts for you.
Speaker 2:All right, yeah, and don't forget to include Lori, so love.
Speaker 3:Yep Thanks.
Speaker 1:Thanks, all right.
Speaker 2:Bye.
Speaker 3:Bye, melissa, could you hang for a second? I forgot, you think we.