The Ode To Joy Podcast

Jake Kobrin: Sparking Creativity and Conquering Inner Criticism

• Elena Box / Jake Kobrin • Season 2 • Episode 6

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Ever felt like an inner critic is stifling your creativity? Want to unlock your inner genius and find joy in the process? Tag along with us as we welcome visionary artist, Jake Kobrin, whose insights on the Ode to Joy Podcast are going to turn your world around. Discover how a unique kambo ceremony in Bali helped Jake purge emotional toxins and faced his grief head-on, reinforcing the power of release and healing in our journey to joy.

In this riveting conversation, we'll also delve into the idea of the muse's role in sparking creativity, and how discipline and surrendering intertwine in artistry. Uncover the secrets of how children effortlessly tap into their innate genius, a journey that might just reignite your own creative spirit. As we wrap up, allow Jake's touching account of his teenage years and his struggle with his inner critic to inspire you. Learn strategies to overcome your internal barriers and let your creativity flow. This episode will be a treat for anyone yearning to embrace joy, nurture their muse, and unleash their artistic side. Don't miss out!

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Visit Elena's website: elenabox.com 

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Elena Box:

Welcome to the Ode to Joy podcast, a show where we talk about joy how do we cultivate it, how do we maintain it and what are the things that get in the way. This week we bring you another part of a very special season 2, all about the inner muse, or inner genius, and this week we are talking with visionary artist Jake Cobrin. I hope you enjoy.

Jake Kobrin:

Hello, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to another episode of the Ode to Joy podcast. I'm your host, alana Box, and today I have the sincere pleasure of bringing on to the show Jake Cobrin. Welcome, jake.

Speaker 3:

Thanks for having me, alana.

Jake Kobrin:

I'm so happy to have you here and to see your beautiful face here. So for those of our listeners our listener who is just becoming introduced to you a little bit about Jake. He is a visionary artist and he's an upcoming author and educator in magic and Western esotericism. Very fancy, very cool guy and I'm so excited to have you on the show. Can you tell us I love to sort of land my guests and our listener with just locating when are you joining us right now on this earth? Where are you.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so I'm currently in Denver, colorado. I've been here for the last couple weeks and really enjoying being here. It's one of my favorite places I've visited in the US so far. Really awesome community. A lot of people from my like arts community, the visionary art world, live here. There's also an amazing scene for bass music, which I'm a big fan of, so I've just really enjoyed my time here. Denver has been really good to me, but leaving tonight to go back to California.

Jake Kobrin:

Back to California, and then are you heading back to Bali after California.

Speaker 3:

Eventually. Yes, I'm a little uncertain exactly as to the time frame of that, but I'm feeling probably early January to head back to Bali. I think I may stay in the States for New Year's. I might even come back to New York City possibly for that, and maybe I'd see you there.

Jake Kobrin:

Yes.

Speaker 3:

We'll see. But yeah, I'm sort of here with supporting family, with some stuff, and so I'm kind of prolonging my trip to accommodate that and it'll make sense in terms of when I'm meant to return to Bali, but for now I've actually really been enjoying my time in the US.

Jake Kobrin:

That's beautiful. That's wonderful. I'm so happy that you're having this moment to just drop into the States and I know you're a California native, you're from California and you live generally full time in Bali, which is where we met, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I just want to share a little background of sort of how we met. So it was after it was like a couple of months after my father passed, I had moved to Bali and I met you sort of in. Oh, I met you during a combo ceremony, do you remember?

Speaker 3:

that I don't remember the camo ceremony. Tell me more. I mean, I've done camo like a lot of times, so it's all just a blur of sweat and vomit.

Jake Kobrin:

You were across the room from me. I think that's where we met, but I think I'd sort of seen you on the Bali scene before that and then maybe that was like the first time we were in a space together, but we were in a combo ceremony and you were very much like in a very deep process. I remember you sharing. I don't know if it happened to you that time, but you're like yeah, you know I've been doing this and sometimes like stuff's coming up and it's black and I was like, wow, southwile.

Speaker 3:

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you had a deep process. I was puking out some black goo at that point, getting those demons out.

Jake Kobrin:

Getting the demons out Super casually. It's a wonderful medicine for doing that. Definitely.

Speaker 3:

It's a great way to bond with your friends and just puke all over each other.

Jake Kobrin:

Yeah, it's definitely a bonding experience, that's for sure. It's like okay, so I'm just going to go through a casual death and rebirth right next to you, and it might get wild, it might get crazy, I might pass out, and it's going to go along for the ride, yeah, yeah. So that's so funny that you don't remember that.

Speaker 3:

But yeah, you want to tell our listeners about what cambo is if they don't know.

Jake Kobrin:

Yes, yes, so this is very good. Thank you so much. So for our listener who's just learning, what is this combo? What is it? So? I like to describe it Basically it's a poison that is taken off of the back of frogs in the Amazonian rainforest and it is a purging medicine.

Jake Kobrin:

So essentially, how it is administered is I would recommend definitely being in ceremony with a skilled practitioner and to prepare, you drink about two liters of water and you fast beforehand, and then small little burns are made on your body.

Jake Kobrin:

Generally it's done on the arms, but you can really do it sort of anywhere on the body. I've had it done in places where I felt that there was some really sort of huge like emotional stagnation, demons, literally like nasty stuff that needed to come out on my back. I did it on my back once. So these little burn marks are placed and then the skin is taken away and then the poison essentially is placed in these little dots, onto these dots, these little burn marks on your skin, and then what takes place for the next 20 or so minutes is one of the most profound and intense purging experiences one could have and it's a wonderful way to process. Yeah, if you've literally I say it's almost like squeezing out literally every single cell of your body, and your heart starts beating really fast, and so it's just one of the most powerful ways to literally clear out the body of actual toxins and then also emotional toxins, and I mean for me, during my grief process, it was one of the most powerful tools to help release that.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean you're basically are retching and vomiting and you feel like you're dying and your face swells up and you get sweaty and hot and your heart's beating really fast for like 20, 30 minutes and then, and then it's chill and you feel so good afterwards.

Jake Kobrin:

You feel amazing. I always try to whenever I tell people about this or like that sounds awful and I'm like, actually it's one of the best things you could possibly do.

Speaker 3:

I mean, I've done it a lot of times and every single time I do it I'm like why am I doing this to myself? But then afterwards I'm like, oh, that's why. This is why you really do feel fantastic. Afterwards, you feel like a new person.

Jake Kobrin:

You're like a brand new baby, newborn baby, you know, and something that I've heard is that it's something that the story I was told, that this was something that sort of the Amazonian warriors used to do before going out on a hunt, because afterwards your senses are super fine tuned and super sharp and I definitely feel that every single time afterwards I'm just like it's like matrix level, just like awareness.

Elena Box:

Sensitivity.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, good times. Cambo ceremony is a new food. Yes, great place to meet somebody, great place to meet somebody.

Jake Kobrin:

So that's where we met. And then after that, you know, I we were just sort of in the same circles, I think, and then I was sort of following along. You were we're doing a lot of artwork at that time and one night I found you. I was driving home up into Penestanon where I lived, and you were doing some street art, like I think it was something like one in the morning.

Speaker 3:

Do you remember this? I do remember that, yeah.

Jake Kobrin:

And I was like hey what are you doing? I think yeah, so you're doing this beautiful mural up on one of the walls in Penestanon and you were like my phone just died. It was pretty late, so I was like, and you, I think you lived kind of far away. I was like you know what? I have an extra bedroom, come on in. And then you came and you stayed and it was. It was just one of those kind of fun like moments where you know it was like all right, come on in.

Speaker 3:

Cool classic moments. Yeah, that mural survived for a while. Actually, it was up for a few years, I think, before it got eventually blasted over. Now it's not there anymore, but that's just how it is.

Jake Kobrin:

That's how it is with street art, though I imagine is that it's, it's sort of one of these things. It's like those, the mandalas that they make with the sand. You know, it's like, yeah, eventually.

Speaker 3:

I think that wall eventually got purchased and now it's like there's some lame advertisement on it.

Jake Kobrin:

Lame, not so good.

Speaker 3:

No art anymore.

Jake Kobrin:

No art anywhere.

Jake Kobrin:

So, ok, so let's get into the topic du jour.

Jake Kobrin:

So it's just so wonderful, like we met 2016 and I've been following along on your journey since then and just seeing everything that you've been sharing and I'm super inspired by your work and your dedication to your artistry and, yeah, yeah, I'm just like, oh, this guy he's got it, so all right. So topic du jour is all about our inner muse, our inner genius, and I love to speak with artists because I think it's something that's well, I think, in all terms of creative sort of output. It's sort of like a dance and a relationship that one has to enter with their inner muse. And so I'm actually really curious for you what comes up when you first, sort of when you think of the muse or that internal genius, like, what comes up for you when you think of that, like this also referred to some time as an inner daemon or inner demon, which is not necessarily like a bad thing, but but it's sort of like this other entity, so to speak, that lives with you throughout your life. Yeah, so what comes up for you?

Speaker 3:

Well, I mean, I'm very interested in magic, as you know, and so I don't mind thinking of these things almost as separate intelligences or higher intelligences or even different octaves of ourselves. I think it might be a little bit of a misnomer to even consider the existence of separate entities in general, like even you and I to some degree are connected as one entity or one field of awareness or consciousness, but within that there are distinctions in terms of kind of energies that can be perceived as separate, I guess I would say. And so I don't mind looking at the concept of the muse and the way the Greeks looked at it, which was actually, as muses, like separate sort of spirits that would sort of joy, joy, ride their favorite artists and accommodate them in the pursuit of creating whatever wants to be moved through them. One of the books that really influenced me as an artist is the Artist's Way, and the main sort of principle behind that book is to consider creativity as something that is made through you, through the divine, or through the diamond, which, as you mentioned, is sort of another word for the higher self or the muse or things like this. But I think, relaxing ownership over your creative pursuits and seeing yourself more as like a conduit for things to come through you is helpful. You know, even as we're having this conversation right now, we've engaged in the practice and understanding of the English language well enough that we can speak it fluently, so that we're unencumbered by having to sort of think about the mechanics of language while we're speaking. But now, having that fluency, we can kind of relax into it and what? The words that are coming through and the conversation that is unfolding is very intuitive. It more comes through us. We're not, like I don't know, thinking and grasping of every single word and moment, of what are we going to talk about? No one does that right.

Speaker 3:

So that same sort of practice can be applied to any art form, where the guitarist learns their scales or, you know, the dancer drills the particular movements that are fundamental to their dance form, or the painter learns how to use their materials well enough that they don't have to think about it as much in terms of the technique, to where they become fluent in it and they can speak that language and then open themselves up to just allow for that muse to kind of flow through them. You know, and it is this balance and this is what I've observed, not only in my own practice but with the best artists that I've known, there's a balance between the discipline and the commitment to the practice and actually having to create regularity and consistency and showing up to create work and the sort of letting go into that, the perfect conditions. You know the divine set of conditions that allow us for any sort of work of art to spontaneously emerge. Because if you talk to anybody who's, you know, an artist, it is like a spontaneous emergent thing where you can. You can never really recreate the conditions that create the best works of art that they've made. You know it's kind of like a.

Speaker 3:

There is a sort of divine orchestration in that works of art come into being when they need to come into being through the artists, when the conditions are right, and there's so many, so many different factors have to align in terms of that artist's state of consciousness, the environment that they're in, what they, you know they're surrounded by and the kinds of energies and experiences that they've had recently or are currently experiencing. You know so many different factors have to come into being and even that, if you look at all the different causal factors that come into being, for a work of art to be realized should help to sort of detach this sort of ownership that the artist needs to impose over what they're creating, that kind of egoic assumption that I'm the one doing this, to relax into understanding that there are these forces, these muses, these these, these demonic forces that actually do influence and inspire us, and that they're there to be called upon through the right set of circumstances when necessary.

Jake Kobrin:

Yeah, yeah, ooh. You just gave me so much food for thought and I love how deeply you understand this in a really embodied way. It's juicy. So there's so much. I want to ask you and I want to sort of rewind back to, like Baby Jake and I'm curious, like was there a moment for you? Or how did you like first come in contact with your inner genius, your inner muse, your inner demon, like was? There a moment, or how did it come in?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, Well, I actually think children are really naturally connected to that Just all children are, you know, and it comes through and play it comes through and the natural faculties and capacities of the imagination that children have and the sort of most children have, a kind of innate sense of self confidence. That's really refreshing. It's like it's nice to be around, just, you know, to get around kids or kind of like that, in a way that adults are not. And so, yeah, I think it's more of the better. Question is almost like when did that stop, you know, for most people?

Speaker 3:

I think Picasso said something like all children are artists. The difficulty is, is them staying an artist as they become adults, or something like that. That's a bastardization of a famous Picasso quote. And, yeah, you know, I can't really like pinpoint a specific experience. That was like the first time, you know, I made art or something like that, because I was always creating when I was a kid, through drawing through. I used to like sculpting a lot when I was a kid and I'm fortunate that, you know, my mom would kind of facilitate that as kind of a play experience for me and my sister and for our friends when I was growing up. It's just like a way to pass time.

Speaker 3:

But yeah, I mean, you know, if I think that sort of what sensors that is, is the inner critic, the sort of self condemnatory voice that lives in our heads that says this is bad, or you're going to be shamed for this, or you know you're not an artist, or this is ridiculous, or what would your parents think of this, or whatever, I'll never be as good as so and so.

Speaker 3:

And kids seem generally devoid of that voice and it's something that gets sort of indoctrinated into one's mind as they age and develop, often through parental forces or through teachers. And a lot of, a lot of liberating your creativity has to do with like overcoming those inner voices and even realizing that they're not your voice, that they're not inherent to who you are, that maybe there was a certain kind of trauma and you can actually do kind of like active work in that regard, to like write a, write a fuck you letter to that teacher that you know condemned your, your drawing when you were in first grade or whatever it is. But it could be that simple. You know, it can sometimes be like a teacher makes a bad remark when you're like 12. And then for the rest of your life. Your creativity is kind of inhibited by that, because you're afraid of what other people are going to think from then on.

Jake Kobrin:

So I'm curious for you did you go through a process like that you know, I know you've mentioned how art was really helpful for you, like in your teenage years, and was that? Was there a process for you where you had to write a sort of like FU letter where you know for you?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean yes, but in a not so much with visual arts. You know for me. You know for me, I overcame a lot of sort of inhibitions around my levels of self confidence as a person in general, socially and in terms of presenting myself and especially in sort of any kind of performance context or public speaking kind of context. Music was one area which I had a lot of shit around. I'm sorry if I'm not supposed to cut it.

Jake Kobrin:

It's okay, you can, I don't know Okay.

Speaker 3:

So you know, when I was younger, like I wanted to be a musician and then I was in this band and I was the singer and guitarist of this band. When I was a teenager and I got like I got booted out of the band because I was too fat. Like that's a, that's a real story. And so the, the other guitarist in the band is like you either have to lose weight or you got to get you're out of the band. So I got kicked out of the band because I was too fat and that really messed up my, my, my self confidence around being a guitar player and a musician for a while. And so, you know, visual art was less loud, it was more ignorable, if that makes sense. And so I took to visual arts because I could do it in a way that was like under the radar, where I wasn't getting publicly chastised for it as much, and I kind of moved away from music because music was more in your face, it was more I had to like really put myself out and be like a performer in that, and so that took a while to kind of like overcome that stuff.

Speaker 3:

When I was, when I was a little bit older, I started attending the School of Rock, which is actually like what they based that Jack Black movie off of Amazing, and the Paul Green School of Rock which was. It was like a kind of young person's program to learn how to play rock music and so would play in bands and stuff of that and then we would do performances and that was really encouraging, you know. That really helped to kind of overcome some of that stuff, you know, and now I DJ and I do actually still I perform, you know, I do poetry performances and public speaking gigs and stuff. So I've really overcome that, that sense of not wanting to be seen, are not wanting to be chastised, are not wanting to be in the limelight. That that trauma that was there but definitely existed for me.

Jake Kobrin:

Yeah, I think that's definitely like a significant amount of trauma for many artists really people is is that fear of judgment, and you know that's a very traumatic thing that you went through, because I think also, when you're putting yourself out there and you're having like a public face, in many ways it is how you're being perceived, but then when you receive feedback that that's not good enough, then it's just like terrifying. So I can understand why you know, turning to visual arts and allowing yourself to speak in that way must have been really helpful for you, and I'm also really like amazed and like congratulating you for moving through that, because I think that's something that hinders so many people for so long. So, like, go you, so happy for you and thank you, thank you. This brings me to my next question. This is something that, like, I've been carrying, something that you shared, and you know this is one of these things where, like, I don't know when you made this video, if you really understood how deeply deeply this would impact people, but something that has really stayed with me.

Jake Kobrin:

A few years ago I don't even know when this was you shared a video About your process of when you chose to get your face tattoos and the way that I took it was really like this sort of declaration, like when I think of. It wasn't for me how I received it, wasn't like this fuck you, but it was just this, like I'm gonna stand and being an artist so securely. I think the way that you put it was like so that it doesn't give me an option to back down and say, okay, I'm not an artist anymore was like a full dedication To your life as an artist. So I'm really curious can you share a little bit about that process for you?

Speaker 3:

yeah, yeah, I do remember making that video and I was basically saying that you can Make yourself unemployable, which I've, I've, I've strove to make myself unemployable so that I have no choice but to be an artist. I think nowadays, unfortunately, it doesn't really make that much of a difference, but it felt like it made a difference at the time. I could probably still get a job if I wanted to, but you know, I was inspired. There's this, there's a story in the book thinking grow rich, which I've read a few times. Still not rich yet, but I'm thinking about it.

Jake Kobrin:

Yes, which is very good.

Elena Box:

Yes, it's part of the process. Yes, at the battle.

Speaker 3:

And there's a story where, where they talk about a commander of an army arriving on the shores with ships onto the battlegrounds and commanding after the army dismounts the ships and goes on to the shores to burn the ships, and the idea is that that army now has no option of retreat and so they must make the best of their circumstances and move forwards skillfully in battle to overcome the other army. And so I feel the same way. If you're gonna be an artist and this is nuanced because you know it's not like every person is at the phase, given their life circumstance, to completely quit their day job and to just go fully into being an artist. But I think that beginning to move into that direction as much as possible, and then at a certain point you really do need to make that leap into being a full time artist.

Speaker 3:

And there are ways in which having the comfort or security blanket of kind of another income through a day job that can actually sometimes inhibit people's development as an artist. That sort of being forced to actually be an artist in a real way, to professionally be an artist, and that that sort of obligation of I actually have to do this in order to survive. Sometimes I can really Put a fire under people that can actually really get them going in the right direction. So you know whether that was it was not a conscious decision at the time. I got my face tattoos, certainly consequence of it, and I I don't regret that, certainly yeah yeah, I think it's so inspiring and I really like it's to me.

Jake Kobrin:

I've always really lived my life being guided by the fool. You know that, that sort of the fools journey of jumping off the cliff and not really knowing if you're gonna land. And I've gone through cycle after cycle of like okay, it's time to jump off the cliff again and we're just gonna see where we land. And I'm just curious for you and your experience, like Was there anything? Even though you are making this sort of declaration of like, okay, I'm jumping off the cliff, like I'm just sort of curious for you. Was there a way and I'm really, really interested to hear if there was any part of your personal practice I know you work a lot with magic and alchemy like, was there any part of that that you brought into your journey that helped you move through these blocks of the fears? And what were the fears for you? And was there a way that you could just like, how did you transmute the fears as you stepped into that?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I've kind of crafted a lifestyle or a consistent practice of Like doing things that I feel initially afraid to do, and for me that's not only the most there's so much growth that comes out of that but also it's a really rewarding experience, is like the kind of thing you can get addicted to, where there's so much energy that gets released by overcoming the mental barriers that exist in doing something that you feel inhibited to do.

Speaker 3:

So a lot of my journey as an individual, in my personal sort of transformation process and spiritual development, has been becoming increasingly like less inhibited over time, you know, and moving in the direction of where I feel inhibited and pushing past those barriers, because really those are like our demons, right, those are these entities that exist in our minds, but we're not that the fact that you can have a perspective on that and be see it signifies that you're not, that you're, you're experiencing that as something sort of alien from yourself, right, right.

Speaker 3:

And so recognizing that fear as something alien from yourself that you can choose to either buy into or not has been helpful for me, and throwing myself into situations that I've been afraid of. Oftentimes those are situations that Involve the loss of control or even confrontation with death to a certain degree, things like ayahuasca ceremonies or other types of ego obliterating type experiences, has been really helpful for me to create some kind of like core sense of bravery, I guess you could say, to move through the world with, so that the things that often inhibit people like I can't do that thing, that would be inappropriate or whatever like just don't bother me as much because it's like sheesh, I just died, you know, like literally, and it wasn't that bad. I guess I was able to get through that. You know there's kinds of or deals and initiations Spiritually that are actually a big part of our ancestry and history is humans, but that are kind of lacking in our western world, I think are really important to engender people with a kind of spiritual strength and self confidence.

Jake Kobrin:

That then is very practically useful in engaging with life and it's uncertainties yeah, yeah, I think it's like this overarching fear of death that many people constantly live through their entire lives and, just as you said, we are lacking in our culture these sort of moments of initiation throughout our lifetimes, and so I I really embrace these moments of understanding okay, so it's time for another initiation, it's time for another death.

Jake Kobrin:

And even if I know like cool, so it's time for another death, like I'm still scared, you know, like I'm still like all right, cool, so we're gonna push ourselves to jump off that cliff. And I'd be curious For you, you know how would you recommend if someone was like cool, so I know I need to go through some kind of initiation where, just as you said, like I'm leaving, I'm burning the ships behind me. I know I need to move towards this in order to fully embrace my gifts, my life. Like so I'm leaving, leaving the past behind, old self is me, of me is gone. What would you recommend, like what comes to mind for you, if you were to sort of create like a, like a prescription, like a soul medicine prescription for somebody who's eager for something like this?

Speaker 3:

It's a combination of things and everybody's going to be wired differently and so not everybody's going to be at a, not everybody's going to have the same attitudes or inclinations towards themselves and towards their experiences. That I do like personally, I get I get Like annoyed with myself. If I get frustrated with myself, like when I, when I'm seeing myself be inhibited, like I don't tolerate that very, very much. You know, I kind of like I see that happening, I see myself being afraid, you know, being a little bitch, and I like I get annoyed by it and I'm like, dude, come on, like you gotta be kidding, you know what I mean. And so I kind of like there's a part of me that sort of like this I don't like rowdy older brother within myself or something that kind of like pushes the sort of weaker version of myself that lives inside of me. It's like the stronger version versus the weaker version inside of me. That kind of like is like alright, come on. Like just just do the thing go for it. Like stop being a baby. So I I've developed that, probably through practice, it's sort of invented that that other version of myself, and now they both coexist sort of uncomfortably at times within myself, but I feel that it's something that I think is important to emphasize in this and courage and I do think that courage is a big part of spirituality and spiritual growth and Individual personal growth in general in a way that can be under emphasize, because we live in such a safety culture and actually a lot of growth comes from doing things that are not safe and yet feeling Confident in one's own ability to handle situations, even if you're in circumstances that are unsafe, and you're never not going to feel afraid, right, you know, like if I am, if I'm going into some kind of initiation experience, I do feel fear around that.

Speaker 3:

Whether that's some kind of intense magical ritual or initiation or a deal, a psychedelic thing, I do feel fear. You know, I get to a certain point where, like I'm like, okay, I'm doing this and I surrender because once I'm doing it, there's like I have no choice, it's gonna happen, I just have to go along with the right. So there's more fear and that lack of commitment, but like, the minute I'm committed to and experience, the fear sorts of sort of diminishes because like, well, I've got no choice but to go through this. But that fear is healthy, it shows a certain degree of self-concern you know it's not absolute nihilism and that self-concern and that sort of fear is important, but yet the ability to feel that and to move forwards anyway is kind of the gold.

Speaker 3:

And yeah, I mean action, you know like to keep moving, to keep moving Moment by moment. You know, we've all been in situations and we're all going to be in situations, especially with the way things are going in a radically changing world, where we're thrust into the unknown, where things that were once working for us are not going to be working for us anymore. We're gonna have to learn and adapt and figure out new ways to exist and to survive and to thrive in the world. And you just, you get, you got to like kind of fuck around and find out, you know, like it's only through, it's only through experimentation, and To see that sort of feedback loop of, okay, that worked or that didn't. And I really look at, I try to look at almost everything I do from that kind of perspective of.

Speaker 3:

What would happen if I did this, or like what would happen if I did that, and and not, I guess, like having that attitude towards things, take some of the pressure off, because I know that I don't know and I'm in a process of discovering, because my life path is pretty unique, so I'm gonna be forced to, you know, make mistakes and learn from them, and I don't mind making mistakes and learning from them. You know, and and I apply that to to everything you know, I apply that to my career, I apply that to dating, I apply that to my health and fitness and whatever. It's just it's like we'll try that out, see how that goes. Oh, that didn't work. Okay, learn something from that though, you know, but you have to actually engage with life to get the find out part, you know 100%.

Jake Kobrin:

What keeps coming to mind is the sort of that saying of like, feel the fear and do it anyway. Yeah, and it also comes to mind when I was thinking about this. It feels like in our culture there's so much. Obviously I think there's needed sort of education about like, how do I say like, how to be better humans in general, towards ourselves, towards each other. I think, like the world of mental health, like there's still, you know, a lot of work to be done, but we're kind of more aware, I think. But in that way it's almost like our world, at least here and and from where I am and Long Island, new York, it's almost like many things are sort of like bumper, like bumper padded, you know, almost like kitty, kitty proved. You know, like when you go into a house and they've covered up all the corners and it's like okay, but it's gonna be soft and cushy and you know, don't, don't, don't do anything too crazy, but it'll be good, because you know how to keep your head down and just follow what you're supposed to do, and you know what I was thinking, and I just feel like sharing this, because this is what came to mind this morning.

Jake Kobrin:

It's like I wonder, though, how much those sort of warnings about like well, that's a red flag and you got to be careful, is Maybe also hindering us in some way, because I think the struggle is sort of what can make you great in certain situations. You know, for me I've always framed things in terms of like, why went through some of the most insane pain Anyone can go through? And wow, there's so much. It's like it's the hero's journey, which is like I love. This is, I went through the shit in order to get the gold and it's. You know, I wouldn't wish the shit on anybody else, but like, wow, that was some shit. And I just thought of something, because this morning I was thinking about the relationship between Frida Kahlo and Diego Rivera.

Jake Kobrin:

And I sort of I don't know why. This is what came up and I was sort of thinking like if these Instagram relationship Experts, you know, would have had Frida and Diego to sort of think about, like well, that's a red flag and that's a red flag. And like, definitely, this is toxic, you shouldn't be with each other, like listen, I didn't know them, but I've know enough about their lives to know that, yes, their relationship was toxic in many ways and they loved each other and they made each other some of the most Influential artists of their time and of our time. So it's kind of like, yeah, it was problematic, but like it's almost like that, like the grit in the oyster that makes the pearl. So it's like can we say that the grit is bad and toxic if it created a pearl? Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean there's a relationship between chaos and creativity and Certainly, from what I know about their relationship, it was pretty chaotic. But Frida I don't know about Diego, but Frida for sure, like loved the pain- you know what I mean Like she was very inspired by it.

Speaker 3:

So she, she had a kind of addiction to pain that created beautiful art and that worked for her. It's not necessarily for everybody, but it worked for her. But I think it's like what you were saying about the hero's journey, or it's like are you the protagonist or are you the you know supporting role or whatever? And it's like if you're a protagonist, you're gonna have to go through some shit. Read any story and the protagonist goes through challenges, always the worst. You know, the protagonist always goes through the worst, yeah, the biggest challenges of any other character in any story. And so expect that if you want to step into that Role in the world, if you're a protagonist, you're gonna go through some stuff. So it's not something to be afraid of, because everything has kind of like its own reward.

Speaker 3:

And yeah, I mean there are examples, not just Frida, but also people like Vincent van Gogh, who had mental illness and His personal suffering which was immense, not to be understated I wouldn't want to be him led to Tremendously beautiful works of art, and there there is a relationship between suffering, there's a relationship between the kind of emotional chaos and wildness of that, and Creativity and art, sometimes for some reason and I've lived through my own Versions of that at times, you know, and and yeah it's, it's interesting too because, like for me, some of my most sort of like craziest, most drug-fueled, most perhaps Unbalanced times in my life were also very creative. So you know, and then maybe sometimes where I'm a little too comfortable, a little too balanced and healthy, maybe I'm a little less creative in a certain kind of way. So it's, it's a fine line and you have to your priorities also change, I think as you navigate life. I'm a little more boring now than I was when I was a bit younger, in my wild 20s or whatever, but you know, because I'm 30 now, I'm getting up there Now, so I've taken things a little more easy. But yeah, there is a there is a fine line between chaos and creativity, for sure.

Jake Kobrin:

Yeah, there's so much more I want to ask you about, though this is what was really coming to mind that I'd love to ask you about. You know, when we think about the hero's journey, I would say all myths that you read involve the protagonist Finding a mentor, and so I'm really curious for you what has your relationship with mentors? What has that been? Or they're very? Are there any specific mentors you can think of, like what, yeah, what? What has your journey been through finding mentors?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I mean I've had a few. I mean the artist, android Jones, has been like an older brother to me. You know. I met him when I was very young and he's been with me through my life sense and Kind of. We never had like any kind of like I don't know, official, like mentor, student relationship, but it's more like he's guided me personally through, like personal advice to me and his kind of Example throughout my life and guided me on my journey as an artist, and so I consider him like a mentor whether I don't know if he's, if he's listening now I don't know if you, if he would see it the same way, or whatever, but like he's kind of like an older brother to me, you know, and so he's somebody that I've been influenced by pretty heavily and I I'm willing to acknowledge that.

Speaker 3:

And you know I had a I had a mentor, like an official mentor relationship with Judy Kyle Vales, who is my tattoo mentor. That was a bit more technical in nature in terms of really learning tattooing as an art form and less about like the path of an artist, which is like for Andrew, I feel like it was more of like who are you at? Like what is being an artist mean and like learning through his example, like okay, like this is what being an artist is to me. I did learn stuff from him in terms of the technicalities and making art as well, but I feel like it was more like the spirit behind it, if that makes sense. And yeah, you know, I've worked with a lot of different coaches on different things and Been in different schools and had a lot of different teachers, all of whom I would credit, in different ways. I've had mentors also in my spiritual practice or in my magical practice as well, and yeah, they've all, they've all inspired me in different ways. I guess for me, like when I look at my relationship with Andrew, it was like organic. If that, it was like you know, we never we never like had a contract or anything. It was just like something that kind of. That's just happened over time.

Speaker 3:

And I feel like the real mentorships are often like that. It's not necessarily like you go to the academy and you fill out the paperwork to have your mentor and I have done that and I have gone to schools like that, but those people oftentimes are not really those guides for me, but the real guides in our lives I feel like they come into our lives naturally and I've had other like other really besides just Andrew have had other. They often for me they take the archetype of kind of like an older brother. You know, they're often men, they're often a bit older and like further down the road that I am and they they kind of initiate me into certain ways of being through our friendship and and they and I would consider them sort of like Mentors. So I think there's something about those kinds of relationships that unfold naturally and organically, like the guides that come into our lives and I would say that that just comes about, perhaps that those are like past-life contracts, who knows, but it's.

Speaker 3:

It's just like about kind of following the whispers, meeting the people you feel and called to meet. I don't feel like I have any mentees in my life in that way, but I'm open to it. I don't have any long-standing relationships with people that are in a younger stage of development at this point, who are looking to grow and find influence through me and my path. But I'm open to that, the same way that I met Android Jones when I was like 14. If I met a 14-year-old version of myself out there that I came into contact with that I could help in some way. I'd be really, really open to that. I feel like, based on the fact that I've had other experiences that have supported my growth as a developing artist, I almost feel like it's my duty to provide that in a certain way.

Jake Kobrin:

Well, I'm excited for you to step into that. I would also just add that I think there probably are little 14-year-old versions of you who are watching what you do. I'm just saying maybe they haven't shown themselves yet. But even what you've been sharing lately about mental health and how you've worked through it and the practices that you use, I can imagine there are so many people who are receiving that and how crucial it is for you to be so open and vulnerable and really sharing your wisdom. I would also say I'm very curious to round out the conversation because I'm really excited to hear you mentioned you're an upcoming author. Can you tell us a little bit about what's coming through you and what the future mentees can learn from?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, sure I did write this book in a way with that intention. I wanted to write a book that I would hope would reach a younger version of myself in a way. That would be like a Trojan horse in a certain way, because I'm trying to package self-help ideas and stuff in a way. That's kind of cool it is cool, jay, it is cool.

Speaker 3:

It's a book about magic and occultism, which is something I've been really fascinated with for the majority of my life. I got into when I was a teenager. If you read Alistair Crowley and these other occult writers, it's really dense and impenetrable. Now I've developed the ability to understand Crowley's writing and actually get what he's talking about from a perspective of magical practice and things like that. It takes a lot of prior education to be able to understand those books. I'm writing this book almost as a translator, trying to condense and assimilate in the clearest, most immediate language I can. Somebody that perhaps has never read any books about magic to be able to really understand what these concepts are pointing towards and what the practices are pointing towards and how to do them.

Speaker 3:

There's a lot of wellness stuff in it. The book's called Magic and Self-Transformation. It's really aimed at self-transformation, self-authorship and authority, being able to become who you want to become and be the best and most uninhibited version of yourself. So there's wellness practices in it. There's ethical practices in it. These are things that are not normally in magical literature. That's why I say it's like a Trojan horse, because I feel that a lot of people get into magic because of some kind of motivation for some kind of power over their circumstances, but what they really want us to be happy. I put that pretty fundamental to the book where it's like, okay, right up front, here's the wellness stuff that if you do this you might become a happier person than you might not need to do all this arcane magical stuff to try to bend reality to your will. I mean, it's fun, it's good to be able to do that too.

Speaker 3:

It'll always fascinate me in terms of just having my own experiences that show that that's something real. That goes against sort of it doesn't fully go against sort of the quantum model of science, but it goes against a lot of other sort of ingrained assumptions around what reality is and how it works. But it's just endlessly fascinating to me that magic is something real, that it apparently works. It's quite unclear as to exactly how it works or why or what's going on with that. I think I'll always be fascinated by that. Whether that is my main focus at any point in my life, I think it's something I'll always read about and always be interested in and always explore and experiment with and use to a certain degree at certain times. Yeah, I'm just hoping to help with the kind of reenchantment project where we live in quite a disenchanted world. So just sprinkling a little bit of enchantment into people's minds and hopefully people at least experiment with the stuff that I talk about in the book and hey, whether you're skeptical or not, maybe it works. What's the harm in trying?

Jake Kobrin:

Yeah, I love that and I'm so excited to receive that wisdom from you and I love it feels that you approach it in a way. That is, how do I say? It's sort of like when I, from me, viewing you from the outside, knowing you're also a part of me, it's sort of like I'm like, yeah, well, of course it just makes sense because it's sort of like this all encapsulated sort of essence of who you are, which, for me, when I view your artwork, like to me that's sort of like a healing kind of you could say healing imprint. But it's like there's a frequency that's coming through your artwork. That's already how do I say it, giving me information. It's already working as a sort of form of magic, is how I receive it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I had a conversation with Alex Gray, the artist, recently about exactly that, where we were talking about Theergy, which is a big part of magic, and he said, well, I think painting is Theergy because you're calling upon you know, this higher source, this to become ensouled in the artwork.

Speaker 3:

And I was like, yeah, that's what making a talisman is, Exactly so. You're making a talisman whenever you create art, especially when you're a visionary artist or you're a Theergic artist, when you're inclined to try to realize and crystallize, materialize, hire forces in the world as a conduit of creativity in the works of art that you create. And so there are a lot of these kinds of magical ideas that parallel with the creative process. And the writer Alan Moore, who is most famous as the author of Watchmen and Veefer Vendetta, is a very influential comic book writer, is also a practicing magician and he has written a lot about how art is magic. And if you look at a lot of the actual phrases and terminologies that are used in magic, like the word grimoire relates to grammar, or oftentimes they would call magic the art and things like this that actually creativity is indeed a magical process. You're yielding and wielding and manipulating symbols to alter people's consciousness, and that's fundamentally what magic is.

Jake Kobrin:

Well said. I think that says it all. Jake. Oh so good, it's soul food. It's 100% so beautiful to receive. That's exactly it. Of course, I could talk to you forever because I have a million more questions. We're going to wrap up the conversation and I'm so excited to talk to you again because I have a million more questions. But to wrap it up for time's sake, can you let our listener know how can they find you? How can they potentially work with you? Is there anything else that you'd like to share, anything interesting coming up that you're offering? Yeah, what would you like to offer to our listener?

Speaker 3:

Sure, yeah, I mean follow me on Instagram. It's probably the best place to just kind of keep track of everything I'm doing. I'm Cobra on Instagram, just my last name. I do want to one coaching and mentorship. If somebody's interested in that, they can just reach out to me. The book should be released early next year, hopefully, but we'll see. Some time next year in 2024, it'll be out and I'm currently working on some online programs. So I'm kind of working on developing my website and stuff like that that would give more information in terms of the teaching and mentorship that I do. So just be on the lookout for that. There's going to be group courses. I have online courses already that exist I think you can go to jacobronartcoursescom to find that and I have a course on magic as well, but I'm kind of revamping all that. So stay tuned to that, and there'll be more information about my one-on-one coaching as well as these group mentorship programs and courses and things in the near future.

Jake Kobrin:

I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it. So I'll add all of the links to the show notes. So for our listener who is itching to get in touch and to check out you and your work, it's on the show notes. So, that being said, it has been my sincere pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your heart, your inspiration and just giving us so much literal soul food and food for thought. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you for coming.

Speaker 3:

Thanks, elena. Yeah, it was a real pleasure for me as well, and thanks for everybody for donating your time to listen to this conversation.

Jake Kobrin:

Yes, I'm sure it has been as nourishing for them as it has been for me. So thank you to our listener. And this has been another episode of the Ode to Joy podcast.

Elena Box:

I hope you enjoyed this latest episode of the Ode to Joy podcast, dear listener, and if you liked it, go ahead. Why not hit the subscribe button? And while you're there, why not throw in a couple of stars, maybe even a nice little review? Think about it. I would love to hear your thoughts. It is my sincere pleasure to bring you these conversations every week and I'm just sending you so much love, and I'll talk to you very soon.