UP habitat work, ravens and the Michigan moose

In this episode of the Wildtalk Podcast, we talk to Caleb Eckloff about habitat work happening in Michigan's Upper Peninsula, fly away with a discussion about the common raven, and we wrap up the episode with a lengthy chat about Michigan moose.

Episode Hosts: Rachel Lincoln and Eric Hilliard
Producer/editor: Eric Hilliard

• All things habitat
  • Wildlife viewing
• All things feathers
  • Common raven
• All things fur
  • Moose
  • Moose capture project news report
  • Michigan moose lift (video)

Questions or comments about the show? Contact the DNR Wildlife Division at 517-284-9453 (WILD) or email dnr-wildlife@michigan.gov.

Transcript

Announcer

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Announcer

You know what that sound means. It's time for the Michigan DNR WildTalk podcast. Welcome to the WildTalk podcast where representatives from the DNR Wildlife Division chew the fat and shoot the scat about all things habitat, feathers, and fur. With insights, interviews, and your questions answered on the air. You'll get a better picture of what's happening in the world of wildlife, here in the great state of Michigan.

Rachel

Hello everyone, and welcome to the WildTalk Podcast. This is your host, Rachel Lincoln. And joining me is my partner in podcasting, Eric Hilliard. Hello, Eric.

Eric

How's it going, Rachel? In the month of my birthday.

Rachel

It's your birthday soon. How exciting. Will you tell us how old you're going to be?

Eric

I will be creeping even further into my mid-40s.

Rachel

Very exciting. Congratulations. Living this long.

Eric

Yeah. I mean, really, that's what birthdays are, right? It's an anniversary of another 365 days of avoiding the pushing up of daisies.

Rachel

Yeah, that's worth celebrating. Do you like your birthday? Do you like to think about, like, the year you just had in the year you hope to have?

Eric

Most of that comes for me around New Year.

Rachel

But not New Year's resolutions, right?

Eric

I don't do New Year's resolutions, but I do a lot of reflecting on the previous year. I think for me, even when I was a kid, birthdays were never like they weren't unimportant, but they just weren't the huge deal that they are for some people. And so, I just don't think about my birthday time is a time of great in deep reflection.

Rachel

Yeah. That's fair. New year's is great for that. I ask because I am a person who does love my birthday. Not because, you know, I like to celebrate me or anything, but I love an excuse for a good party or to get people together. I, I do like to host though, I like to host, and I like to have all of my friends around. And birthdays are like the perfect excuse for all that.

Eric

Your party last year was awesome. I mean, yeah, no, that was a great party. Are you having another one this year? I know that last year's shindig was a bit bigger than typical, but the whole costume element of everything was great.

Rachel

Yes, my 30th disco party was definitely one for the books. I loved everything about that day and the people showed up. I mean, your costume, which was rented from an official costume place, was it true vintage? You came up in true vintage disco.

Eric

Oh, it was true vintage. And you didn't even recognize me because I shaved my beard and everything into that, you know, big, thick handlebar mustache. You're like, who is this person walking up my driveway?

Rachel

Your commitment to the bit was perfect and so appreciated. That is the level I'm looking for in all people to show up to the themes. I love, a theme I love a commitment to the theme. And that was probably, if not certainly, the best birthday party I've ever had because everybody came dressed up and everybody came to disco, and it was epic. So no, I don't think my next birthday will be quite as epic as the last one was.

Eric

Well, maybe when I turn 51, I can do an area 51 themed birthday where everybody comes dressed as aliens or other sci fi type things.

Rachel

Okay, we will look forward to that. You know, we've got a really special show for everybody today. I'm super excited about this episode. It is pretty moose centric, which is a really fun topic for us to talk about right now. And it's relevant as we just started a new Moose research project. So, we will head up to the Upper Peninsula and chat with some of our U.P. wildlife staff about moose, including that research project, but also the moose aerial survey and how we get an estimate of the population of moose in the western U.P.

Rachel

And then just to keep it in line with the U.P. theme, we'll also talk about the common raven, which is another super cool species you can see in northern Michigan during the wintertime. Of course, we will have our regular Mug Me trivia question for you to have your chance to win a mug, and we'll also be reading off the names of our most recent donors to the Non Game Wildlife Fund, which, by the way, we have now raised over $1,000.

Rachel

In total, $1,135 have been donated to the Non Game Wildlife Fund, which is incredible. We are really happy and really proud to report that number, because that money goes directly into the pot that helps provide conservation actions for rare and vulnerable wildlife species. So, we super look forward to reading off those names later, and then again providing you and direction for how you can also contribute to that fund.

Rachel

And just as a reminder, if you have a question for us that you want to hear on the show, please record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us at DNR-Wildlife@michigan.gov. We will play the recording and have our DNR experts answer your question on air. All right. We've got a great show lined up for you. Let's dive into it right after a word from our forests.

Announcer 2

Trees provide for the well-being of our state. That's why we work so hard to keep our forests healthy and abundant. So, wildlife has a home, and so do people. So that there's clean air and water for everyone. And so, Michigan's economy can be as strong as the trees that support it, because every branch of forestry ensures that future generations will always have a tree for life and forests for a lifetime. To learn how sustainable forestry benefits your life, visit michigan.gov/Forestsforalifetime.

Rachel

Welcome back to the WildTalk podcast. Today we have Caleb Eckloff, Wildlife Technician out of the Marquette DNR Customer Service Center. Here to tell us about the work he's doing for wildlife in the Upper Peninsula and to give us some insights on the moose aerial survey that happens every other year. Thank you for joining us, Caleb, and we are looking forward to hearing more about your work.

Caleb

It's been a very, very moosey winter so far in 2025, so I'm happy to be here and talk to you about the big deer species that's running around in northern Michigan.

Rachel

Indeed, it has, and I am eager to hear more. Well, let's start with you telling us about yourself and your position in the wildlife Division.

Caleb

So, I'm responsible for all things wildlife. Be that nuisance or disease control or, monitoring in Marquette and western Alger counties. There's also a fair bit of habitat work that goes on in portions of my work area as well. And I also have a pretty big responsibility when it comes to working with constituents in the largest metropolitan area in the Upper Peninsula.

Caleb

Lots of people have wildlife questions and where wildlife meets urban situations, it can get really interesting really fast. Be that from a disease standpoint, or just why are there foxes running down my street at all hours of the day or night?

Rachel

You do have a lot of large, charismatic megafauna in your part of the woods, so lots of different wildlife species and lots of different tasks that you just mentioned. So, with all of that in consideration, what does a typical day look like for you. Or is there even such a thing as a typical day?

Caleb

I think there's a typical seasonality to my work. And I think most technicians and wildlife staff across the country could probably agree to that statement to one degree or another. But for me, springtime is survey time. So that may vary from day to day, but everything, has to get done in a particular weather window. Be that bring grouse drumming surveys, woodcock painting surveys in the evening hours. There is also the Spring Breeding Waterfowl Survey, another aerial survey that I absolutely love that bleeds into the summer months. That's typically nuisance wildlife habitat work, sitting on a tractor, and managing some of the state managed public lands in Marquette County, a little bit in Alger as well. And then as we roll into September, that's bear season. That's for bear registration for our largest omnivore running around these parts and then deer season furbearer registration in into, November, December and a little bit in early winter. But really wintertime is wildlife survey month or wildlife survey season. And the two big surveys we do here in the U.P. are the aerial survey and the Wolf Track survey. And those are done every other year opposite one another because each are pretty intense with staff time and commitments. So, we try to flip-flop each year and tackle each of those surveys one at a time.

Rachel

And so, this year is moose survey year. So, can you walk us through what the moose survey is and how it is conducted?

Caleb

We want experienced observers that have that familiar sight picture of what a moose looks like from 500ft flying at about 100mph above the ground. And we want to get those observers in a plane flying. Predictable or preset predictable transect across the core moose range. And that core moose range is includes portions of Marquette, Iron, and Baraga counties. That's basically where moose were reintroduced in the, the mid and late 1980s, when moose were transported from Algonquin Provincial Park in Ontario, Canada, over to the Upper Peninsula. So that was actually just as a real quick historical throwback. Most people don't know it, but that was the second moose reintroduction effort that was attempted in Michigan. The first was in the 1930s, where when moose from Isle Royale were captured and translocated to the mainland of Michigan. But unfortunately, that effort didn't provide the either the right number of moose to push them over the reproductive threshold to make a viable population. And maybe it was winter weather, climate, who knows. But the 1980 relocation efforts, those did stick. And the goal of that effort was to create a sustainable population of about 1,000 animals by the year 2000. And if you're looking at the data, we have not come anywhere close to that population estimate of 1,000 animals. We're sitting at about half of 1,000. So, the last couple of efforts, however, between 350 and 450 animals, which is not quite there yet. So, the question comes up naturally. Why aren't we seeing the anticipated moose population growth that researchers and biologists that planned this all out in the 1970s, when the first when the first person thought about moving moose back into the mainland, why aren't we seeing that? So that's part of the reason why we continue this survey effort. That's also the reason why we had the moose collaring effort this past season as well. So, we just wrapped up on that. But with that, Rachel, you were there for it. But you're going to talk to Tyler, so I'll, I'll keep a pin in that and leave him the, the glory that comes with talking about that project, because he did an amazing job. Just as a little foreshadowing.

Rachel

Yes, we are going to get into the specifics on the moose collaring project. And it was quite the undertaking for our staff and partners who were involved. But that is not to discount the undertaking that is also the moose aerial survey, because that is quite a feat in itself, both in terms of logistics and doing the survey. But there's also a certain kind of physicality that comes with the aerial survey. And as I have come to learn, through discussion and through experience myself, being a spotter in a plane for moose is not for everybody. So why don't you tell us a little bit more about what it's like working from the air during this survey. 

Caleb

While surveying an observer will call out moose left or moose right, depending on which side the observer was sitting, and the pilot begins to circle and circle. And hopefully if everybody's, well trained and that moose is sitting in a, a favorable position, we try very quickly minimizing the number of circles we do. Capture the, the sex of the animal bull versus cow and then the age. So adult versus calf. And that all sounds pretty simple. If you're talking about 1 or 2 animals on the ground. Generally, it is. A cow calf combo is pretty easy to distinguish. Adult versus juvenile, and bulls with their large antlers are pretty easy to differentiate from cows. However, when the bulls lose their antlers and suddenly you've got a group of five plus animals and they're all running around, it gets pretty chaotic very quickly. And that's where observers at very, very, very well trained and decisive, and the pilots are very helpful in that respect, too. They've seen more moose than most observers have. And they fly every day we can. So, they're they are the ultimate observer when it comes to identifying animals while circling. We were able to wrap up the survey on February 1st, so our goal was to wrap it up by January 31st. We made it one day over, still waiting for the final results on the estimate. But as we're looking for moose, bear in mind that we as surveyors see about 40% of all the moose on the landscape. So, there are some other details that are thrown into the model that are used to estimate the moose population, like the percent cover. We try to estimate that when we find a moose like how much obstructive cover is over top of that animal, it could be trees, it could be a rock outcrop. And that percent cover is used in the model to figure out a more exact estimated population. Also, in the model is a consideration for cows and calves. That one is way above my head. Somebody smarter than me, far, far smarter than me that developed this, survey side ability model, 20, 30 years ago. Figured out that more calves on the landscape probably means there are more, moose in that population. Which sort of makes sense, because those animals are being produced during the, the September rut. So, if you're seeing more calves, there's probably more cows giving birth. And there has to be bulls to produce all those calves.

Rachel

So, after the moose survey concludes and you have all of this data, how is that information used? How is it used for moose management in Michigan?

Caleb

So, the big thing with the aerial survey is just population monitoring. So, this is a this is a novel species that we try to keep track of, at least in the core range. However, we've learned that there are certain deficiencies with the survey protocol that we're currently operating within. And by that, I mean, we can only physically survey a certain portion of the geographic land space of the Upper Peninsula. Moose have legs. There are other favorable habitats across the peninsula, and they move beyond our capabilities of actually surveying them. So right off the bat, I mentioned habitat and dispersal of these moose. So, this survey, we can actually see over the course of the last couple decades where moose have shifted from their original translocation site in northern Marquette County. They seem to have moved away from that. Now, is that because of, available food resources elsewhere? Is that due to competition from other browsers? White tailed deer are the big one. Is that parasitic infection from, ticks or brain worm from white tailed deer. It could there be some competition there. It's possible. So really, the big things that we're taking away from the area moose survey are habitat use. And, to a limited degree dispersal. And that habitat use has been helpful in developing a framework, for, for habitat, conservation when working with other partners. So commercial forest landowners are a major property holder within the core moose range. And we have we as a state agency have worked with a lot of those landowners to try and develop moose management or best moose management practices, not only in state land, but these commercial forest lands as well. So really, it's a long term population monitoring device with a splash of where are the moose going and what habitats do they like, prefer, or have those preferences changed over time and that has really steered the way for the moose capture work and what the GPS collars are hoping to teach us.

Rachel

Yes, there is so much to be learned and that's really exciting to see years’ worth of population monitoring and new research projects all going into how moose can be best managed in Michigan to be around for as long as possible. So, thank you for doing what you do, and we're happy that you get some much enjoyment out of it. All right, folks, stick around. Up next, we'll pivot to another species you can spot in the U.P. during wintertime, the Raven.

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Rachel

Well, today we're going to uncover the coveted life of Corvus Carex, also known as the common raven. A bird that has intrigued humans for centuries because of its intelligence, adaptability, and mysterious presence. I saw a ton of ravens when I was in the U.P. last month, and ravens are enormous. They shock me and I always need to see them in perspective of something else. So, when we were driving across the U.P., they'd hang out along the roadside a lot. I'm not sure if they were looking to get salt along the roadways where they used salt instead of sand, but I did see one carrying a full-sized apple like giant Honeycrisp style apple, and it carried it with ease. Because these birds are just enormous. I have an experience with the raven that sticks out in my mind, and I don't know if you have one. Sometimes I feel like everybody's got, like a crow or a raven story because they are so charismatic and feel comfortable around us. But on my wedding day. So, I got married in Northern Washington, up in the mountains. And it's your wedding day, right? So, like, there's so much going on and it's almost sensory overload. And you got people in logistics like there's so much that most people never remember. Most people forget a lot of the details on their wedding day because there's just so much. Well, when I got out of the car to go to my ceremony location, there was a giant raven on the side of a rock right near the path I needed to walk by, and for some reason that sticks in my mind. Like with all the other details on my wedding day that I forgot this like two-foot-tall raven, because I think they're a little bit bigger out there than they are here is like one of my first memories when I think about my wedding day.

Eric

Did it Quoth to you evermore.

Rachel

It did not make any noise, fortunately, because, you know, ravens are so often seen as omens for things. So, I tried to like black that part of my raven knowledge.

Eric

So, you didn't, like, spit for, like, to ward off the bad luck or anything like that when you saw it?

Rachel

No, I just thought, hey, that is a really cool raven. I'm glad I got to see that. And because I'm a wildlife biologist, I think that's why it's stuck in my brain. And then I had the best day of my life. So that's my little Raven story. That's what I think of every time I see one. 

Eric

It's no bad omens at all. Like, you know, it's all good.

Rachel

Yes.

Eric

I think we should start a trend that, ravens are just cool.

Rachel

Ravens are just cool. And that's not even a new trend. People been thinking ravens are cool for ages. We're just really, bringing it to light a little bit more. They're spectacular birds. And let's get into why let me tell you some really cool ravens facts. So first of all, you most people have probably seen a raven. Or you can envision what a raven looks like, right? It is an all-black bird from its beak to its eyes to its feathers. It's all black, and it can be easily confused with the crow because crows look very similar, but they are large. They are bigger than what you expect them to be. So, the wingspan of a raven is between 45 and 46in. So, I know we were using toddlers as a form of measurement not so long ago. That's like, I don't know, like a two year old toddler maybe, about that size. 

Eric

So how does that compare to a crow.

Rachel

Compared to a crow? Crows are 33 to 39in wide, so it's about a foot wider than a crow’s wingspan.

Eric

It's impressive.

Rachel

It is. It is impressive. It's a big bird. They're often the size of like, birds of prey, hawks, owls, things like that. And, I mean, I guess I don't think about those things being similar size. So, they're, they're much larger. The second characteristic you can look to differentiate between crows and ravens is the ravens’ robust slightly curved bill. So, it's got a much beefier bill that has a distinct curve to it, where of the crows is kind of shorter and more pointed. And then third, most of us see crows and ravens flying overhead. So, we're seeing the shape of their under wings and their tails. So, crows have very square, slightly rounded tails where ravens have a diamond shaped tail. So, it's much wider, very distinct, not rectangular at all. So, couple different you know, a few differences between the two birds. But most often if you're in southern Michigan, you're going to see crows. If you're in Northern Michigan or the Upper Peninsula, you're going to see more ravens, because that's where they live in our state. Ravens also can be heard. So, they have really, a really deep croak that resonates a long distance. And I won't even attempt to make that raven sound. But I would recommend you go find it somewhere to listen to the audio, because it is earthy bird sound that is really cool to hear out in nature.

Eric

Yeah, and in our show notes, we'll have a link to, the All About Birds page for the ravens. You can go there and listen to their sounds. They have this type of thing, you'll hear it, and you'll probably say, that's so Raven.

Rachel

Oh, nice. Gosh, that was a good show.

Eric

I never watched it. I'm just familiar that it exists.

Rachel

That was one of those shows that came out right as I was coming of age. And I often wonder, like, how much of those shows imprinted on me and altered my personality. Like, I definitely wished I could see visions for a long time, but that and that I was a secret undercover pop star. You know.

Eric

I was a secret undercover pop star.

Rachel

Yeah, I believe that the amount of jingles and rhymes that you're able to whip out in a second, I would believe you are a pop star. Now, the common raven is in opportunistic feeder, so it is an omnivore and is pretty much willing to eat just about anything it can find, from insects to small mammals, carrion, grains, berries, or trash. They've got a bill that is equipped to handle most types of food and therefore it will eat just about anything it can find. And because of that, they actually can be found throughout so many different types of habitats across the Northern Hemisphere because they're not eating very specific foods. They can pretty much live anywhere where they can find those nonspecific foods. And so, they do from forests and deserts, mountains, the coast, urban areas and downtowns, their ability to be able to thrive in those environments is led to their success. And really healthy population of them across the country. Now in Michigan, the common raven, as I mentioned, is primarily found in the northern portions of our state. So especially across the Upper Peninsula, but also occasionally in the northern Lower Peninsula. And they really thrive in remote areas or forested areas, especially in areas with larger tracts of wilderness. So, I was up in the kind of west Baraga County area where there's not a lot of, development. And it's pretty wild. And there were ample ravens all over the place. But again, as we were driving through downtown Marquette, they were there, too. So, a lot of variety and where you can go to see ravens. Now, ravens, as we've mentioned, are known for their remarkable intelligence and some complex social dynamics. So now these birds form a lifelong pair bonds. And they will also defend their territories year-round. And they take those roles very seriously. But ravens are also known to be extremely, playful and have been observed performing aerial acrobatics like rolls or somersaults or even flying upside down for great distances. Now, Eric, this part blows my mind. So, some young ravens have even been documented playing games, so they will throw sticks and catch them in the air. They'll fly and, you know, kind of crazy patterns or upside down and somersaults. But really, researchers and scientists think that they're just playing.

Eric

Maybe they caught an episode of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and so they're acting out what they saw on television, and they all want to be Donatello. So, they all have they're just throwing the stick back and forth and catching it and twirling it around and doing flips and ninja moves and stuff like that. Who's to say some ravens didn't peek through a window while some kid was watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and they're like, wow, that looks like fun.

Rachel

Why not? I mean, they're highly intelligent and they are also known to mimic. Usually, they're mimicking sounds that they hear and not Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle shows that they saw through a window, but they will mimic. So probably similar. All of us have probably heard blue jays mimic before. Like you hear the jay jay that the blue jay makes, but they also can mimic redtail hawks or other birds of prey that might be in the area. And blue jays are very closely related to ravens and ravens will do the same. So you probably, you know, you can hear the raven and they're like throaty croaking sound that they make, but they also can mimic other songbirds or birds of prey that are in the area just because they can do it as a communication tool to let other birds to scare other birds out of the area, to potentially, like, gain their food sources, or just for the fun of it, because, you know, they like to have fun. Apparently. Now, ravens really do hold, significance for people in both human culture and mythology. So, Eric, I think you referenced it earlier. But when you hear the word raven, what's the first thing that comes to mind?

Eric

Oh, definitely Edgar Allan Poe's The Raven.

Rachel

Yes, exactly. So, for so many of us, we.

Eric

Really, if I'm being honest, what I'm associating it with is The Simpsons Halloween special that did a play on Edgar Allan Poe's The Raven.

Rachel

Yeah. And The Raven is deeply rooted in a lot of folklore and mythology and culture for so many different groups of people. It's an important symbol in a lot of indigenous cultures. Across the pond, the Tower of London, ravens are actually kept in the Tower of London as part of a tradition. And it's part of the folklore that if the ravens leave, the kingdoms will fall. The kingdom will fall. And actually, just listen to such a great story about The Raven Keeper. So, there's a story. There's one guy who's responsible for the ravens in the Tower of London. And his kind of philosophical take on how those ravens should be cared for. It's a really enjoyable story. If you feel like learning more about, some of London's raven culture. But ravens are so deeply rooted in literature and folklore for many of us, and it just goes to speak to how profound ravens have been on society and in storytelling. Well, with all of that in mind, hopefully the next time you see a raven, you will pause just a second to really appreciate how beautiful and interesting these birds are. Stick around folks, you will not want to miss what's coming up next. As we talk with our moose researcher about the Moose Project, that's just underway in the Upper Peninsula.

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Rachel

We'll continue our moose and U.P. centric episode by talking about the new Moose Research project that just launched in the Upper Peninsula. Now, this project is officially called Factors Limiting Moose population growth in the western Upper Peninsula, but it's more casually being referred to as the moose capture Project. And here with us today to talk about the project is one of the DNR leads, Tyler Petroelje, who is the U.P. research specialist for the DNR wildlife Division, is here. Thank you for joining us today, Tyler.

Tyler

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Rachel

Now, Tyler, we know that this is a very busy time of year for you with the project just getting underway. So, we do really appreciate you taking the time to join us. Now to start, can you just tell us a little bit more about you and your role with the Wildlife Division?

Tyler

Yeah, absolutely. So, I am a wildlife research specialist for the division. And in particular, I cover kind of the northern half of the state. So, I'm, the northern forest, wildlife research specialist. And in general, my role is to, oversee, all of our partner research projects and internal research projects that are going on, across the northern portion of our state. So the U.P. and the northern Lower Peninsula, and so these projects kind of vary widely based on the division's needs to better understand our wildlife populations, whether that's estimating abundance, whether that's looking at habitat use or even like this moose project factors that could be limiting population growth.

Rachel

Awesome. Can you give us an overview of the new moose capture project?

Tyler

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, this project obviously initially started because we were seeing that population stagnate in that began to prompt questions, both from the public and internally on what's happening with our moose population. But through that, we've also been able to build up collaborations with Keweenaw Bay Indian Community, and Northern Michigan University. To start asking these questions together and tackling this, this problem really through a collaboration. And there's a lot of value in that because you understand that, this is a problem and a challenge that we're facing, you know, as a team, you know, across agencies, including the public. And I think that's provided, a lot of opportunity for us in the future to say, how do we value wildlife in Michigan? And definitely what's the role of, collaboration across agencies in wildlife research? This project is, looking at moose populations in the western Upper Peninsula, and we're focused on what we refer to as the core moose range. And this is an area that's, centered over the Michigamme Highlands where there's, relatively high snowfall load, low deer densities and really good moose habitat. So, a mix of good upland deciduous habitats mixed with some lowland, coniferous habitats as well. So, you have good winter cover, good forage in the summertime. What we are really focused on doing here is getting collars out on initially 20 moose in this first year and 40 moose in the second year. To better understand, what factors could potentially be limiting their population growth.

Rachel

And is the western U.P. the only area where Michigan has moose?

Tyler

No. So we do have moose, more generally across the Upper Peninsula, in smaller pockets. And so, we know in the eastern Upper Peninsula, we do have kind of another pocket of moose where you'll routinely see moose, people if they are ever visiting Tahquamenon Falls, they have good chance of spotting moose in the eastern U.P. And then also if you go further west over towards Lake Gogebic, we're starting to see another pocket of moose forming over there. And really during the summertime, when moose are moving out to summer range or your bulls are traversing larger portions of the Upper Peninsula, there's a good chance that you could spot a moose in just about every U.P. county. But we do know that, during the wintertime, they tend to consolidate towards areas that are, most advantageous to wintering. So, some of our moose in Michigan are migratory, some are resident, meaning, you know, some are traveling long distances between summer and winter range, and some are spending their whole year in maybe, about a ten square mile area.

Rachel

Has there ever been moose in the Lower Peninsula?

Tyler

So historically there were but you know, once moose were excavated, both in the northern Lower Peninsula and the Upper Peninsula, there were no efforts to reintroduce moose to the northern Lower Peninsula. Whereas in the U.P. we've actually tried to restore moose two times. At least in recent history, in the 1930s, there was a failed attempt to reintroduce moose from Isle Royale National Park. Most of those moose were either poached or they died. From what we think was brain worm at the time, they called it circling disease. And so, we, you know, we didn't really know about brain worm at that time, but we anticipate that was the most likely cause. And that attempt really didn't work. That second introduction, which is, you know, fondly known as the moose lift, occurred in the 80s. And that was when 59 moose were brought back over to the same core area that we're talking about now with this, this moose project. And that's the population that we have that exists today. That that covers most of the Upper Peninsula.

Eric

How did they get the ones over back in the 30s? I'm assuming they weren't using helicopters back then to bring them over.

Tyler

No, that's pretty interesting. If you look, they were actually able to corral them up and they would ship them over on a boat. And so, they actually move them over on a boat. When Isle Royale was overpopulated. And they were concerned about some of the habitat damage because, you know, you get a lot of moose in a small area they can do quite a bit of damage to your local habitat. And so, they're actually thinking, well, why not bring some of those over to mainland Michigan and start a moose population? Part of the problem with those moose is maybe some of them weren't very healthy to begin with. So maybe we were bringing over moose that weren't in the best shape to start a population. And also, like I said, you know, overlapping with higher deer densities and, and brain worm potentially impacting those populations. And, and people weren't probably ready, to responsibly manage moose. There's a lot of poaching going on at the same time.

Rachel

That makes me think of, okay, it might be really interesting story to look at all of the modes of transportation for animals and animal restoration projects. So, like moose, boats, we had helicopters carrying moose. Decades later, elk were transported by rail like that level of logistics, like, how do you move a 1,400 pound animal, you know, just a random side piece that's really interesting to think about.

Tyler

Yeah, absolutely. And even like for the moose lift, you know, moose were initially captured and then moved by helicopter to another landing zone where then they were picked up by truck and drove from Ontario into the Upper Peninsula. So, you know, I think lots of times do we think about moose being flown hundreds of miles by helicopter, but most of it was, was pretty short trips for the moose, which was probably for the best, because I can't imagine, you know, traveling with the moose for many miles, slung from a helicopter.

Rachel

No kidding. Now, with this project, this recent project that just started a couple of weeks ago, what specific data were you hoping to collect and how will you use that information?

Tyler

Yeah, that's a great question. So, we're collecting quite a few different pieces of information to try to better understand cause specific survival and cause specific mortality. So, when I'm talking about causes of mortality, I'm saying what's the what's the source of that mortality when it occurs. And by looking at that we can better understand what factors might be limiting that moose population. And so, you know, when we think about what controls populations of, wildlife populations, it's rarely one thing. Usually, it's a multitude of factors that need to be considered. And so, for us, when we think about what has historically been important to moose populations, I brought up brain worm earlier, you know, so parasites might be really important. And they have been shown to, have either, you know, important effects on direct mortality or compounding effects on mortality, nutrition is another one of those things that we're really interested in looking at. So, we're taking hair samples to look at stable isotope. What type of diet are these moose eating. We're taking, fecal samples. So, pellet samples from the moose, that's going to help us better understand, cortisol levels. Some of this, is how stressed out are these moose? And then also, again, nutrition. Just like the stable isotope analysis, we can look at what types of foods are these moose eating. Are they getting good nutrition. We're also collecting, body condition on these moose. How much fat reserves do they have? Throughout the winter. You know, that's another indicator of nutrition. Is there sufficient habitat out there for this moose to put on an appropriate amount of body fat to be able to make it through those, those winters? And make sure that they can produce healthy calves. Right. Other things we want to look at is by collaring those moose, we can actually follow them to end of life so we can see things like predation are, you know, what's the role of predation in both calves and adult moose? That's going to help us better understand how many of those calves make it to adulthood and get recruited into that adult population.

Eric

And when we say predation, we're talking about being killed by another animal.

Tyler

Absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, direct predation, but predation can be a proximate cause. And what I mean by that is that's the thing that ultimately or proximately killed that moose. So maybe it was a calf that was predated by a black bear when it was really young. But if that calf was in poor nutrition, because the cow was in poor physical nutrition, that could have led to that calf being more susceptible to predation. Right. So, sometimes these effects are not always as clear as a black bear was the cause of death, it could be a compounding effect of maybe that calf was in poor physical condition, which allowed it to be more susceptible to predation. And the same thing could be true of an adult cow as well. If that adult cow had multiple parasites and wasn't poor nutritional condition, it might be more susceptible to predation by something like wolves. And so, by collecting both those, end of life data from collar data that we can follow that animal around until it dies, but then also collect those samples to better understand what physical condition is that animal in. Both at the time of capture. And then we can collect more samples at the time of mortality. So, was that animal in good physical condition when we caught it? And then did it result in over maybe a couple of years, that animal becoming in poor physical condition and being more susceptible to something like predation.

Rachel

So, this is a lot of effort and a lot of data to be collected on moose. What makes moose so significant in the ecosystems? Why is it important to study them this in-depth?

Tyler

Yeah, absolutely. So, moose, really, you know, they're important socially. They're important culturally and they're obviously important ecologically. They're largest member of the deer family that we have in Michigan. And they're a big herbivore. And big herbivores can have, outsized effects on their environment. And what's really interesting about moose is that historically, when you, read about moose, when people were first describing them, across portions of North America is they were thought to be more of maybe even a nomadic species. And the thought was, is that they had enough of an impact on their environment through herbivory, that perhaps they had to move around because they would browse so heavily on certain areas. So, we know that moose can have a really big impact on their environment through browse. And certainly, we see that, you know, if you go out into an area where you know, there's occurring moose, you're likely to see a lot of browse activity through twigs being bitten off, especially in this early successional grove. You know, whether that's an aspen habitats or red maple, you'll often see some fairly heavy browse by moose. And so, when you have really high densities and moose, that can obviously be a problem. They can eat themselves out of house and home, but then they can also move around a lot of nutrients to, being a bigger herbivore, you know, whether that's through moving around and having mortality events or whether that's just depositing pellets across the landscape. They definitely have an outsized effect, relative to a lot of other mammals on the landscape.

Eric

And when we're talking about them depositing pellets, we're also talking about them depositing seeds from some of the stuff that they've been eating. Correct?

Tyler

Yeah. And so you, you know, you can have, multitude of effects from, yeah, moving vegetation around, to even, you know, when their antlers drop, it can actually be a, a big resource for rodents, you know, so they, they have, a lot of effects, you know, some are smaller than others, but, they can have a lot of, effects on other mammal populations just because of their, their size.

Rachel

Okay. So, you have reintroduction efforts in the 30s and the 80s. So why now? What made this the right time to conduct this research?

Tyler 

Absolutely. Well there’s couple of things that made this the right time to conduct the research. We in general are looking at a few different ways to prioritize where to spend our conservation funds when conservation funds are obviously limited, and it's important that we place them where our best priorities are for the resource, for the people in Michigan. And so, some of the ways that we do that. Are first to listen to the people of Michigan, and we listen to citizens advisory councils that have a lot of interest in moose populations in the Upper Peninsula. And they want to know what's going on with our with our moose populations. And they would like to see us have better information on the status of the moose population. We also know that we conduct, biennial aerial surveys to track our moose abundance over time. And so, this gives us kind of a, broad picture of is our moose population growing? Is it shrinking? Is it staying the same? And what we've seen is that over about the last decade, our moose population has really started to slow in its growth rate. So, following that reintroduction effort in the 80s, we were seeing, about a 10% annual growth rate in our moose population. And while that was less than expected, we still had fairly good population growth. And we thought we were heading on the right trajectory to try to reach that target of a thousand animals in the western core area of the Upper Peninsula. But around 2010, we began to notice that that annual growth rate was kind of slowing from 10% to 5%, to 3% to 2%. And now, in our most recent surveys, we're at less than 1% annual growth over the last ten decades or over the last ten years. And that really caused a concern because we see in other moose populations around that slowing and growth. We have seen populations start to decline, like in northeastern Minnesota. And we want to know, well, is that the future of the Michigan moose population. So, the whole goal of the reintroduction effort was to have a free ranging, sustainable population of a moose in Michigan. And we really want to ensure that, that we can see what are the factors that are limiting the population growth in Michigan. Is there room to relieve some of those limiting factors and perhaps continue to see our moose population grow, or can we at least reduce some of those limiting factors so we don't see, a net loss of moose over time so that we can continue to have moose in Michigan.

Rachel

Well, let's get into the logistics that are involved in a project at this scale. And when you're dealing with an animal as big and as powerful as a moose, so can you go over how you safely captured and handled moose?

Tyler

Yeah, absolutely. So, we decided to go with, a technique that's called helicopter capture and specifically darting through helicopter capture. And one of the reasons we chose this technique is because it's relatively effective, and safe at the same time to capture an animal as large as a moose. And so there are quite a few logistics that are involved in this. First of all, you have to have, helicopter company that can be contracted where you have a very experienced pilot that can work in low altitude situations. And you also have to have somebody who's a very experienced darter that can dart the animal, through chemical mobilization so that we can safely handle that animal. And then on top of that, we have a team of aerial fixed wing pilots that are able to circle and look for moose because this is what's going to be able to help us effectively move from moose capture and moose capture. And so, between having two fixed wing aircraft in the air, looking for moose at all times in that helicopter pilot being able to move from moose to moose and dart those animals, then you need a team that's able to quickly get to those animals and work those animals up. And what I mean by work up is we want to make sure that when that animal is immobilized, we can safely collar it. We can safely take those biological samples that we're collecting. We can make sure that, its, temperature, pulse and respiration are all within reasonable rates so that that animal is, is doing very well while it's chemically immobilized. And then we can safely release that animal after the capture takes place. And so, to do that, we ended up having four aerial teams. So those aerial teams are teams of two people that would be transported by the helicopter, dropped off at each moose after it was immobilized. And then we also had two ground teams, and those ground teams would come in from snowmobile, and they would be able to assist those aerial teams, and the moose capture workups. So, it really is it's quite a few moving pieces. But between the aerial fixed wing planes, the helicopter, the aerial teams and the ground teams, what you end up with is a really efficient way to capture moose. And, and at the end of the day, we ended up collaring 20 moose in a day and a half. And so, it really speaks to just how well the staff were organized, how well people are working together. You know, when you have a team come together, how fast you can get this work done.

Rachel

If I find myself as a communicator at a real crossroads talking about this project and Tyler, I'm sure you can empathize with what I'm about to say. When we talk about these kinds of projects and as we're doing so now, we want to do it really professionally, right? Like here are the facts. We’re laying out how we safely were able to handle moose and the logistics and the planning that we're in to make this project successful. We're trying to pair that with the absolute emotional and enthusiastic reality of being a part of a project like this.

Eric

But I have to say this. Please tell me, please, that after the workup was done in, the moose got up and went on its way, that someone went over the radio and said, the moose is loose.

Tyler

You know that that is one phrase. We did not have come up on the radio.

Rachel

We will include that next year, Eric, and you'll be a part of it to make sure that happens.

Tyler

Something I'll mention, along with the radio, is that you know, in this whole process, I, I didn't I failed to mention the base station and the role that we have there between folks who are actually coordinating a lot of the activities between the spotter planes coming and going in their refueling throughout the day, the helicopter and telling them where the moose are located from the spotter planes, letting them know which aerial crews are going to be heading out next, and then letting the ground team, helping the ground team navigate to base camp did a fantastic job helping navigate those more challenging situations that we have and the realities of of working on a mixed ownership landscape.

Rachel

Pivoting from this fun topic into something a little bit more serious. You know, talking about these factors that may potentially be limiting the moose population. There is a lot of conversation about the impacts of wolves on wildlife populations in the Upper Peninsula. Can you talk a little bit more about what the relationship is between moose and wolves? And if you expect to see wolf predation limiting the moose population? 

Tyler

Yeah, that's a great question. So that really jumps into, predator-prey theory. And there's been a lot of focus on this topic, especially with large carnivores and, large ungulates, or members, you know Cervidaes, member of the deer family. Because most of our study historically on, predation ecology has been a single predator in a single prey. The reality is, is in most systems, they're much more complicated than that. And so, we do have good examples of in very simple systems, wolves can have top-down control, meaning wolves are driving the direction of a prey population. You know, one good example of that is that's fairly near to home is on Michipicoten island in Lake Superior. Now, this is an island in Ontario, Canada, and there were woodland caribou on that island. A small population of woodland caribou and wolves got onto that island through crossing the ice. And they actually drove that population to extinction. So, they removed all of the caribou through predation. And those wolves were surviving on beaver. And so, I think a lot of people can look at that and they think, well, that that's how a system must work. And other parts of, you know, of, the country where if you have wolves, they're a predator, they're going to kill prey populations and they're going to drive them down to extinction. So, there won't be anymore. But on an island system, things like I said, are fairly simple. So, you have basically one predator. Maybe two prey, because you had beaver on the island as well. But the reality is, in the U.P., it's it's a much more complicated scenario than that. So, yes, there are wolves, but there's also black bear and you, we know that black bear can be important predators of moose calves as well. But we know that there's not just moose to eat. Right. There's also white-tailed deer that are much more abundant than moose in the Upper Peninsula. So even though we know that whitetail deer densities in the Upper Peninsula are much lower than, say, downstate, where deer are overabundant, there's still a lot more white-tailed deer in the Upper Peninsula than there are moose, especially even in even in moose range. So those are factors that you have to start thinking about is, there's more predators than wolves. There's more prey than moose. So, when we think about the types of impacts that we've seen from earlier studies on, wolves and moose in other parts of, the Great Lakes region, like up in Minnesota, we see that you can definitely have predation play a role. From wolves on calf survival. But again, that's not really the only story. It can also be that what is the condition of the cows that are giving birth to those calves. What type of parasite loads are those adult moose and calf moose experiencing? Both of those can play a role into what's actually driving that population. As far as, do we see that population growing or shrinking? What we do see is that even with relatively high predation rates on calves, you can still have a growing moose population if your adult survival is high and if you have enough calves recruited into that population. So, before we look and say we know it's wolves, we really have to understand what's the calf production? So how many of those adult cows are on the landscape are getting pregnant? How many calves are being born? How many of those calves are killed by predators? How many of those calves are recruited into the adult population? Because that's going to give us a much better picture of what's happening with predation and the role of predation. We wouldn't be surprised if we see predation on calves, by both black bears and wolves. But the reality is, is that we know those adult moose populations have very limited predation by wolves because we've had, moose collared in Michigan before, and we've seen very limited predation by wolves.

Rachel

And just in case we haven't mentioned it. Yeah. How what is the latest moose population estimate.

Tyler

Yeah, absolutely. So, we haven't really touched on that before. But going back to the moose lift, after those 59 moose were reintroduced, through the moose lift, we saw the population grow steadily to about 4 or 500 animals. And it's been at that population level since about 2010. And now this is in the western Upper Peninsula, in the core range that we survey every other year. And so, that was really the big impetus for this population study is to better understand why have we stagnated at that 4 to 500 individuals, when we think that the landscape could be able to support closer to a thousand animals? And so, better understanding those roles of, you know, parasites, nutrition, predation, things like vehicle collisions. We didn't really talk about vehicle collisions yet, but in the last three years, we've had 47 moose hit and killed by vehicles. Are more moose dispersing, are more of our moose migratory that we're no longer picking them up on the core range? A lot of these questions are questions that we can't answer through our traditional biennial aerial survey. And so, this requires, just a more detailed level of study. And that's where collaring comes into play. And it's why we take it quite seriously, because it can, though it's a more invasive way to study wildlife. We get a lot more information on what's going on with that population.

Rachel

So, once you start to learn more about these factors, what does that mean for overall moose management? Like how is the project findings going to impact the future of management of moose in Michigan?

Tyler

Absolutely. So, a big part of understanding, what type of management can be taken for moose populations relates to what is in our control. And the challenges is that, you know, we may have relatively few options moving forward that are in our control, but one of the big ones is forest management. So, because the DNR owns, you know, over 2 million acres in the Upper Peninsula where we actively manage our forests, this allows us a lot of opportunity to decide and what can we do to improve things like habitat for moose. And while it may seem like if nutrition is not the only issue, if parasites are an issue, interesting research shows that how we manage our forests can directly impact parasite loads on the landscape. So, some interesting work that's being proposed right now is to look at the more often that we manage our forests and kind of setback succession, we actually change the gastropod levels on the landscape or, you know, number of snails on the landscape. And a lot of gastropods are responsible for being intermediary hosts to carry some of these parasites. And so, by potentially setting back succession and managing some of our lands, you know, we might actually be able to change things like parasite lows in the landscape. So, forest management is really something that we can take seriously, whether we're looking at improving moose nutrition or things like reducing parasite loads in the landscape. And that's where these GPS collars can really come in handy too, because the collars that we're putting on moose right now, they're going to be telling a story for the next 7 to 14 years of those moose, as long as they live that long. Those batteries will last for 7 to 14 years, depending on, how well the GPS, is connecting to the satellites, and they take a relocation every hour or so. Every hour, for the next 7 to 14 years, we're getting a location on that moose, and that's more fine scale data than we've ever had on moose in Michigan to help us better understand what habitats are they selecting for and those habitats that they're selecting for, we can then tie back to what was the condition of the moose when we caught it. What was the condition of the moose at its time of death, at mortality? What parasite load was that moose carrying when we captured it? And what parasite load was that moose carrying when it died? And then throughout that we’ll have all of its movements through the landscape. That will help tell a story about what type of habitats, what type of forage did that must have access to, and where do we see moose have better survival when they have access to better or different types of forage? And how does that relate to what parasite loads they're interacting with as well?

Rachel

There is certainly a lot to be gained from this project, and we can't wait to learn more as you go and to chat and catch up with you as this project really gets underway. So, Tyler, thank you so much for talking with us about the project and how it started. And we really appreciate your time and your insights into moose management and all of your knowledge on predator prey. And you know what we're looking to learn from this project. We appreciate your time.

Tyler

Thank you very much, Rachel and Eric. Appreciate it.

Rachel

All right, folks, stick around for your chance to win a mug.

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Rachel

Now is your opportunity to win a WildTalk Podcast mug, as a thank you to our listeners will be giving away a mug or two every episode. Our February mug winners are Dan Baker and Karen Nikolai. Check your email as we'll be getting in touch with you soon. They answered the question; Bobcats are most active during dusk and dawn. This period of activity is called what A. nocturnal, B. crepuscular or C. diurnal. The answer was B crepuscular. Which side note is like my most favorite word to say. It has such good mouthfeel when you announce all of those syllables. Anyways, to be entered into the drawing this month, test your wildlife knowledge and answer our wildlife quiz question. This month's question is; What are moose antlers made of? Email your name and answer to us at DNR-Wildlife@michigan.gov. To be entered for a chance to win a mug, be sure to include the subject line as mug me and submit your answers by March 15th. We'll announce winners and the answers on next month's podcast, so be sure to listen in to see if you've won and for the next quiz question. Good luck everyone!

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Michigan conservation officers are working hard to protect and keep the outdoors safe for current and future generations. If you witness a natural resources violation, you can call or text the report all Poaching hotline 24 hours a day at 1-800-292-7800 or fill out the complaint form available at michigan.gov/RAP. If you would like more information on becoming a Conservation Officer, click on become a CEO at michigan.gov/conservationofficers.

Rachel

And now is the time to show our appreciation for those who have donated to the Non Game Wildlife Fund to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Michigan's Endangered Species Law. We have, as I mentioned in the opening of this episode, now donated more than $1,000 to the Non Game Wildlife Fund. An enormous thank you to our recent donors Jim and Dee Lily, Ray Pegonlio and Trish Marie. Thank you so much for your donations to rare species conservation last month. Your support makes a big difference in conserving our state's most vulnerable species. And remember, if you want to hear your name read on air, then you can visit michigan.gov/wildlife and click on the link to donate. We look forward to adding more names to our list next episode. Well, thank you everyone for joining us on this March edition of the WildTalk Podcast. Happy spring and enjoy some time outside as the weather is getting a little bit warmer. If you have questions about wildlife or hunting, you can call (517) 284-9453 or email us at DNR-Wildlife@michigan.gov. We will see you back here in April.

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This has been the WildTalk Podcast, your monthly podcast airing the first of each month and offering insights into the world of wildlife across the state of Michigan. You can reach the Wildlife Division at (517) 284-9453 or DNR-Wildlife@michigan.gov.