DiversiTrade w/ Fietje van der Lee & Carmen Thirsk

In this episode of Watt's the Word, we sit down with Fietje van der Lee and Carmen Thirsk, directors of DiversiTrade, a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting diversity in the skilled trades. The conversation explores the origins of DiversiTrade, the importance of community support, mental health awareness, and the necessity of inclusivity in the trades. The guests share their successes, future plans, and the vital role of parents in shaping perceptions of trade careers. The episode emphasizes the need for diverse voices in the industry and the resources available to support underrepresented groups.

Find out more at diversitrade.ca

Transcript

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Welcome to Watt's the Word? The podcast that sparks conversation about the electrical industry. Join Zack Hartle and me, Jason Cox, as we explore people, innovations, and the stories that make this trade so exciting. Let's dive in. Welcome back. And today we are following up with our last episode where we met with Jess Loney talking about monthly priding construction. We talked about how he's one of three directors at DiversiTrade and we are pleased to be joined today with Fietje van der Lee and Carmen Thirsk two of the directors at DiversiTrade. I'm not going to tell you what that is. I'm going to let them tell you. Welcome Fietje, welcome Carmen. Thanks for having us today. Yeah, we're excited to take part, so thanks for the invite. Diversity trade feature give us the basics. What is it? Well, DiversiTrade really we're there to help sort of support and advance diversity in the skilled trades, right? To try to break down those barriers that are out there for individuals and, you know, make it more open for people who are underrepresented within the field. So that's sort of where we are trying to build that change and continue to improve the field. We're definitely seeing some changes in the population of people in the trades. Can you tell us a little bit about how you guys decided to establish this nonprofit? Well, we sort of got together around like 2020 through Miriam Geordi, who started a woman, Alberta Women in Trades Facebook group to bring people together, talk about their issues on sites, ways to make it better, how we can access better work wear for women and safety equipment for women and things like that. Cause it was pretty limited at the time. It is starting to improve and we grew from that and wanted to expand that out to like the Pride community, the BIPOC community, and also newcomers to Canada who are finding it difficult with language barriers and stuff to get into the field and get jobs and really maintain those jobs in the field. So sort of where we've come from, in a sense. So. I mean, Carmen, why all of those groups? Why not pick a group and focus on that? I mean, we see lots of those organizations that they focus on one or two groups. You guys are focusing on everyone. It's just saying everyone is welcome in the trades and you're helping everyone. come? As you just mentioned, our roots started with the Alberta Women in Trades Facility Group, we realized whatever becomes good for women is good for everyone in the construction industry. Having better access to a safer spot to eat lunch or a community, you're not sitting in the grass on the field by yourself. You've met a few other tradespeople on site that are looking for someone to eat lunch with too. started kind analyzing that we realized, you we can't just focus on women. And to be honest, there's a lot of other groups already doing an amazing job with that. We wanted to start working to support everyone else, as we said. you know, what could we do to find resources and provide support and acknowledgement to underrepresented groups. So that's really where we started looking at, as you just said, you know, our Pride community, the Indigenous groups as well, all of the newcomers to Canada, English as second language, you know, started analyzing that and realized there's some existing resources out there that maybe people didn't know were available and we wanted to start highlighting those and sharing with everyone, you know, you're not alone. There is others that are of struggling in a similar way and we wanted to help connect everyone together and find shared resources that they could all access and help support women up there as well. So one of the things I'm looking at is like, how was the message getting out in the past and then in the future? So it was really word of mouth, even just getting into the trades in the past. now with, with your guys and your nonprofit, you're obviously changing how the word of mouth is getting out and how we're, how people can discover this. like explain to me how somebody finds you got your team. And just kind of where maybe take someone from that initial contact to maybe where they might end up. Yeah, definitely. We focus predominantly on operating our free website, diversatrade.ca, where we have a whole list of resources covering a variety of categories. We're kind of filtering into careers and employment, scholarship and bursaries, certification, education, health and well-being, unions and workwear. So with those subheadings, we've organized all of our resources under there. We also have an events page where we link everyone to that. So Google search will definitely get you there, but we also focus a lot on our social media channels. We are on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and we'll be building a YouTube page here eventually as well. with that, as we partner with different organizations, different members of You know, unique communities, we like to highlight them under our partners and just really link everyone together. So a lot of the word of mouth is through our industry colleagues as well as promotion through our various social media channels. You know, we've recently done an event with SAIT for Pride and Construction in June this past year and in 2024. It's been really great to see more knowledge and interest about what diversity is done as a result of our Pride and Construction event too. So that helped get the word out as well and know Jessica talked about that in her podcast too. Now, Fietje, as your group, are you working with employers? Is the goal to have people come to you to link up with an employer to get a job? is it, seems, it sounds like it might just be more about that community engagement and just promoting the trades in general, not so much helping people find a job. Yeah, it's more about getting that like, how can I access the trades? How can I be successful in the trades? So we will be building like community partners and hopefully finding people in industry of employers who would be willing to hire or support those individuals. But we're really the main thing that we worked on in our first year in 2023, after we sort of got our society up and running federally was to try to build those resources online that people can then access and then hopefully find a way that they could bridge the barrier of word like mouth to mouth getting in, right? Usually it's between people that you get into the trades, but that's very difficult. Like even for myself, trying to get into the trade was pretty hard. I was sending out my resumes and you know, getting no, no callbacks, no nothing. And so it wasn't until I actually took Vermillion, it was the... Vermilion Skills Energy program that I did, which was for women at the time. It's not non-existent anymore, but I did a work placement for two weeks and the guy that I was working with said, hey, if you don't hire her, you'd be done. Right? So it's just being able to show that you're capable of doing that. And if we can show people those resources to maybe bridge that gap. then we can get them into the trades and then hopefully have resources available on our site that could continue to support them throughout their apprenticeship. We hope to expand out to finding employers who might want to partner with us and then being able to like, but there's so many other different organizations out there that already do that. So that's what our website does. It sort of highlights, hey, maybe go with the, what is it? The Alberta office to the advanced women apprentices and they connect with employers. So if we can, you know, highlight to people, hey, maybe you should check them out. If that works for you, go that way or, you know, find what works best for them in a sense. Yeah, that's, mean, two good points. Like there's so many job boards and even like Indeed and all of these things. I mean, the jobs are out there. It's just you guys are working to more find the groups that are either actively trying to get more people, a more diverse workforce. The other thing is, I guess I didn't even think about it before is like, yeah, most, trades jobs typically come word of mouth, but if you're new to the country or from a group that's historically been underrepresented in the trades, the word of mouth isn't there as much. You don't have the people to talk to to get those jobs. So yeah, I like that. Yeah, and if you're thinking like, came, I have a teaching background, so I was a teacher. So on my resume, I had to think of what to say. What is going to attract me to those employers or the people that are, you know, going through the resume list and be like, Hey, do we want to try out this person or not? And what kinds of, you know, skills are they going to provide for us? So that was very difficult. Like luckily my name, no one knows if you're male or female with my name. But it is like there's so many people I know that they do not put their first name on their resumes if they're applying to the trades. And you know, there's a big difference between Mary and Scott. So it's, it still happens to this day that, hey, if they see that resume on the board, it's like, this woman can't lift up, you know, a stack of pipe off to the, off to the side it goes, but you don't know what that person looks like, who they are, what they're capable of. So it's just giving people that chance. And I mean, the opportunity you mentioned earlier of you being able to actually be hands-on for a few days on a job site, one, for you to try it out and two, to prove that you can do the work. think I really wish we had more opportunities like that for, for people in the trades these days. But one of things I want to kind of jump back to here and kind of putting Carmen on the spot a little bit, you guys mentioned health and wellbeing, and this is something that's kind of popped up. in my world dealing with apprentices recently. so he kind of just backtrack a bit and talk a little bit about DiversiTrade and the thought of health and wellbeing. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because mental health is starting to finally get recognition within the construction industry for so long. You know, all the awful stereotypes, you know, tough it up. No one cares. Don't complain about this. They're softening in many ways and there's a big acknowledgement that, you know, construction industry has one of the highest suicide rates in the world and that's predominantly among, you know, that average age of working males in the industry. so there's been great initiatives through Bell Let's Talk across Canada, getting into the Kids Help Phone for youth, and even expanding. There's suicide hotlines that are actively advertised. There's employers that have ability to provide resources for psychological assistance or therapy. and that sort of thing and that has gone a long way to take a bit of the hostility out of, know, if things aren't going well at home that, you know, maybe your employer who is somewhere in skilled trades and construction can actually provide that assistance and that's something we really wanted to focus on in our resources because it's, you know, there's a pride thing for a lot of men especially to admit they need some help, they don't know what it is yet, but they need to talk to someone and we can help to secretly provide that list of resources to say, hey, you can go check out this organization. have online hotlines, online chats, online phone numbers. You can reach out and start that conversation. it's something we're really happy to see and the employers are acknowledging it. supporting it and I think that's important for the younger generation especially coming up in the skilled trades that they see that the world does care about them in that sense and you they don't have to leave the construction industry because they're struggling with their mental health in one way or another that they can get some support resources and help work through that in many cases. What I think, especially with the younger generation, we're seeing a mental health epidemic, right? Like pre-COVID, even more so post-COVID, like it is a problem. And I think that, yeah, if the trades can start to address it, it's going to be going to help people last longer in the trades, right? Have a more fulfilling career versus get in and get out. We have a big attrition problem. I have no idea on the stats, but talking to a lot of people, they're seeing second years, first, second, third years just leaving the trade. Especially at third years, you're 75 % of the way. You're a benefit to finishing a trade and moving on. That's just, they're leaving. I think that might have been part of the problem. It's always tough to say. Any work in that space is going to be absolutely huge. That could be like the work-life balance side of it too, right? People want to have free time to spend with their family or whatever, or build a family if that's what they want to do. And, you know, when you're isolated, like one of my students the other day was saying, like, he works 24 on, four off. And I was like, holy cow, that's crazy. Like, I could, I would never do that. I wouldn't sign up for that. You've got to make it attractive to people. And this younger generation, as you're saying, I don't think they're attracted to that type of successfulness, right? You were just talking about financial success. Well, financial success doesn't build a whole person, right? You need to have personal success, know, health, mind success, it sort of builds a whole person rather than just being caring about, you know, how much I make in a month. Hmm. Well, it sounds like your website and your organization's almost like a landing spot. Not necessarily for, you don't have to be one of the groups we talked about in diversity, but even in the trades in general, people can go there and there's probably a lot of resources to help them make decisions on getting into the trades. For sure. find, and once again, statistics not on the top of my brain, but there's so many, and Zack, already alluded to this, so many people start their apprenticeships but don't complete them. you we have had people come to us constantly, you know, we want to get in the trades, we want to get this, and you you're like, okay, what trade do you want to do? I have no idea. And so we help direct people to a lot of great online resources that, you know, it's online quizzes, it's... you've identified you like to work with your hands, but what's your ideal working environment? And as he just said, the younger generation is looking at that and trying to match apples to apples. And when it doesn't match, well, maybe construction isn't for them. So advocating that there is a variety of different trades that maybe they didn't even realize were considered a trade as an option too. really helping, I think, What's the word? Like, not scare them away from the traits, but from horror stories, but share positive career aspirations and say, hey, did you know you can get to this management position by starting in a trait too and helping show the whole career evolution, not just you're shoveling dirt for six months in the summer or something. And I mean, you're not wrong to like construction trades. It's not for everyone, but it shouldn't be for not feeling included or welcomed on a construction site. Right. So I think we all have different opinions. I mean, I kind of have a question. I want to ask the same question to both of you because you can both look at it from a different lens. Right. You're an instructor now and you have worked in the field and on the actual as an electrician and And Carmen as a kind of a project manager, right? Working for a general contractor as a project manager and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you, you're not a ticketed, you are not in the trade. My educational background is actually architectural technology but majored in the building development side which got me into the construction management so I do not have an apprenticeship or a ticket in anything at this stage. but looking at it from each of your individual lenses, why is DiversiTrade and more importantly, is diversity in the trades so important? people bring a different perspective from what they've societally been brought up as. So we can look at it from a different plane of thought and bring our own ideas. If we all think the same and we all are like a 19 year old white male, we all think the same. Whereas if you can bring in other perspectives for people who come from a different country. Maybe they've seen installations done in a different way, or maybe we have different skills that are available. Hey, organizational skills or coordinating skills. So we can all bring our prior experiences to benefit the whole environment. And if we do want to change the stigma, we have to be more open and attract people to the trades. We're looking at tons of baby boomers that are going to be you know, retiring here shortly, how are we going to bring this influx in when we have sort of as a society said the trades are, know, if you're not good at math, you go to the trades or, know, if you can't go to university, you go to the trades. That shouldn't be the full options, right? We should have the option of being able to attain or become whatever we want to be and not have society or other people tell us we can't, right? limiting me. Like it's amazing how many people you hear experiences saying, you know, women shouldn't be in the trades. Well, why not? If I'm capable and able to do the job, what doesn't matter, you know, my sex or gender or color, it shouldn't, right? If I can be a part of the team and be able to coordinate. So I only see diversity as a benefit to any corporation or company to become better, really. Well, that's it's a powerful message. mean, especially from someone with your background, right? Like you have a post-secondary degree with a good job, but still that what you knew that wasn't right for you and you chose to move into the trade. So. Yeah, and many people thought like I was crazy. They're like, I can't believe I took a major pay cut and did something that I was interested in and intrigued me. And they were, you know, there's probably a lot of people that would do the same if they were given more of that opportunity or support. Well, starting over again, after you would, mean, a lot of people, the big goal is to complete their degree, get a great job and start their, I don't know if life is the correct word, but to take a timeout, make a total change and then go back to the bottom or the beginning. The beginning's a better term. Started at the beginning again. mean, I'm sure there was. Lots of times where you're shaking your head, but at the same time, there was probably your perspective was totally different than someone else that would have been new to the trade. You have a little bit of life experience. Yeah. just like to build things so I was always intrigued in building stuff in my grandfather's shop so I knew tools which was a benefit but again it was just trying to find the people that would give me the chance. And with anything, you're stronger with diversity, right? mean, if you had anything, but it was just a narrow group of individuals or items, then it's really limited. But as you start to diversify, then it encompasses so much more. So I think that's a strong benefit. Carmen, anything to add to that? mean from the project management side, why is diversity, do you see it in your day job? Have you seen the benefits of diversity or guess downfalls of not enough diversity? For sure. I think on the larger projects, you definitely do get the opportunity to see a more diverse workforce, but we've seen it a lot of times. You you've got, a drywall crew. You know, they're predominantly Spanish speaking. They've got a system. They're efficient. They get things done and they're working, you know, right beside maybe a flooring crew and a different spot in the project that is also speak Spanish, but predominantly from another country. And you start to see these communities that typically were isolated on their own little islands. I do my work, we do our work, we don't need to chat. There's more acceptance for them to kind of mix and mingle. And we've seen a lot more positive interaction between different traditionally isolated groups in many ways coming together, sharing. productivity tips and hacks that they've come up with. And genuinely, over my 15 years in the commercial construction industry, I've really seen that evolve. And that's been wonderful because sometimes we'd have a crew that was just stuck and they were behind and they were dragging their heels. And it was because they had someone that wasn't confident with English and all of a sudden someone across the floor saw that they were struggling and they just come over and translate. And I don't think that always happened to the same level in the past. So there's more acceptance, more embracing of that. And when you have that on a large job, they go to smaller jobs and you see that happening as well. So I like the mix of different nationalities on a job site, different genders, different... problem solving methods come out of the experience. You might have a European trades person that can throw up a door frame in no time flat and he's happy to share his tricks of the trade with the young apprentice carpenter that works for the general contractor. And so that's what's always made the trade special and it's nice to highlight that at times and really remind everyone outside of that job site, this is actually how interactions are happening on the project site and whatever stereotypes are out there, they're outdated now. So I like to always share those happy stories with everyone after a rough day. And if something didn't go as planned, it's like, well, we've got a plan because a backup plan, because there's positive interaction and people aren't just yelling at each other, blaming each other for errors and mistakes. They've acknowledged it. They've got to recovery strategy and we can move on so that ultimately makes the project more successful at the end of the day too. Even as you share that story, I'm like, duh, I haven't even been thinking about how trades are interacting. I'm just thinking, yeah, on an electrical crew, have diversity is beneficial because of this. of course, if all of those trades can have better communication with each other, it's going to just make the entire job run smoother. Yeah, of course. I like that. Yeah, and even having someone to translate, we were on a job site once and we had to grab one of our guys to translate with one of the other sub-trades. There's a lot to unpack there for sure. And my favorite is always when they start sharing recipes and, you know, who's got the best Jamaican spice rub mix and they've got to do a comparison. And you just see that those friendships kind of blossoming on project sites too. And, you know, they translate from one job to another. I think on the management side, you know, the more you can maintain that positive happy vibe, the... Usually the more successful your projects are going to be at the end of the day. And the more likely your employees and trade people are want to stick around and be a part of that team. Absolutely. mean, it brings to the forefront that constant just head to head bashing between trades. And it's something I personally never understood, never have I understood or gotten the whole, electricians don't like plumbers and plumbers don't like these guys and these guys don't like these guys and carpenters. It's like, why? We can all teach each other so much. I don't know. I would get bored just doing one thing all day every day. So if I can pick up little tidbits here and there from other trades about how they do things like now I'm renovating houses and doing things like that. And you can't do that if you're just siloed into your own one little world. Feature we're looking at about two years now since the diversa trade has got off the ground. in the two years, can you maybe go through some of the breakthroughs, some of the successes, and then maybe tell us a little bit about what's in store in the future? Well, I'd say since our inception, guess, federal paper inception, we got that done in July of 2022. And it was only the two of us at that time because some had to step away. So it was Carmen and I who sort of got together and organized and coordinated the whole website. So that was one of our big successes in our first year of being federally incorporated. as a not-for-profit society. And we had some friends helping, Carmen's friend Kelsey helping us out on the backside because neither of us are very good at designing websites or anything like that. It's a lot of volunteer time. We're not getting paid to do this. We don't really have much funding coming in from anybody or donors. So it's a lot of free time from Carmen and I just because it is a passion for us. That was the whole reason why we started this and continued to need to build on that. So once we got the website ready to go, we did a soft launch in January of 2024. And it was quite crazy. There was a whirlwind after that. People were trying to contact us to see what it was all about. And this is even before we had lots of resources on our website. We had a couple and just intrigued about what, what this meant, what was our goals, how we could help. We were contacted by many different companies, even the government of Alberta had asked us to meet with them. And we got Prospect, we were building Futures, MCG Careers, lots of different people and players who were interested in what we had to offer. And that led to, you know, speaking sessions or speaking engagements with specific, I was doing some with like a school introduction type thing and Jessica on the Crichton Construction End has been on multiple panels. What do they call them? Like fireside chats and stuff. Yeah, sort of like, yeah, yeah, fireside chat type stuff. And we are going to be joining and being part of the upcoming global webinar, which is pretty cool looking on that pride aspect. like, well, there'll be more coming out about that. We can't really say too much right now, but something we're going to be involved in and is going to be broadcasted globally, which is pretty cool. continuing to build on our Pride in Construction events. So we had our Pride in Construction event in June of 2024 and went really well. We had great partners at SAIT who were really willing to help us out and gave us a space for free. And we coordinated that, had many different companies that were interested and are interested in attending the 2025 one. It's quite amazing to see the you know, attraction towards this. But it makes sense because if we can increase that diversity, we can increase, you know, the how our companies work and make it better for everybody is really the goal here. So those are a lot of our big successes and events that we have hosted in the last little bit. Is there anything you wanted to add to Carmen that I might have missed? think you covered it for sure. It really, we genuinely didn't anticipate the interest and success we saw. I we are literally 10 months in and there was, you know, a couple weeks we had meetings with the people every day. There was a call every day and that really helped reinforce to us that we were on the right track. We were working towards something that, you know, as you just said, is our passion project, but it will genuinely make difference in the lives of people looking to get in the skilled trades and construction industry who are already there, who are maybe on the fence about leaving, and we can help and support that. it's definitely been very rewarding despite all the extra evenings and weekends we've put at it. And we've been fortunate to have a few of our Pride and Construction Committee volunteers who want to continue on with us on a more annual basis. that's been great that we're attracting some additional help to keep providing as many resources and events and speaking engagements and community engagements as we can for the industry. So I, I mean, you're both not fully, but just a little bit modest. So I'm on the diversitrade.ca website here and the partners you guys are working with, I mean, the women building futures, the office dude, like the list goes on and on. mean, everyone should go check out the website, the list of resources that are here dealing from, from women's workwear, specialty workwear companies, the different unions that you're working with. mean, the IBEW. A quick shout out to episode four of What's the Word with Scott Crichton talking about IBW and what they do, the Skipping Stone Foundation, SafeLink Alberta, Pride at Work. There is mental health resources here. Just everything that you are doing within 10 months. I mean, you said it, it shows that you are on the right path. This is such a huge cause. Personally, I love that it is just a, you're not selling anything. you are just a resource center. Hey, you have a question about anything to do with entering the trade and not even just entering, but continuing to work in the trade. Come here. There's something for everyone here. Diversetradet.ca. Listeners, check it out. Tell your friends about it. Anyone who's thinking about entering the trade, it's worth reading. You kind of stole my thunder there because I was checking out the web. You were, I was checking out the website and, right now on the website, I can see one, two, three, four, five companies, that are listed for workwear options. And I know for myself growing up in the trades, we, didn't have that many options for buying. Clothing and I mean, clothing is something that's really exploded in the trade over the last years. So, I mean, that's just another example of the resources. where there was also a link there onto trade secrets. saw that earlier too. And I mean, that's definitely somewhere that any future apprentice needs to go. And, your website is way, way, easy to look through its design nicely. yeah, Zack beat me to the punch there, but, I'm a little jealous of some of that stuff. So there's another stat. just quickly, before we wrap up this conversation, I want to talk about about why and why diversity in the trade is so important. So if we look at the Canadian Workforce Facts, again, diversitytrade.ca, check it out. 156,000 workers to retire by 2027. 171,000 are required by 2027, which means that we have a shortfall. 30,000 workers in Canada. I just read those stats really quickly, so I think I'm right. That's why diversity in the trade is important. We can't be not welcoming or inclusive to a good portion of the population, whether it be any of those things, gender, sexuality, race, religion, language. mean, language to an extent, we got to be safe. We have to take that into consideration. But that's why diversity in the trade is important, is because we need everyone in the trade who wants to be in the trade. just, know, from someone in the trade, thank you for what you guys are doing. Keep it up, because at this rate, you'll be everywhere. And on the line of like people coming into the trades, being from, you know, being a woman, my expectation is never to be 50 50. Because like, you know, but if let's say 25 % of the resumes are female, there should be maybe at least 25 % in the field that maintain and stay because there's a lot of males that don't make it in the trades past, you know, as we're saying earlier, first or second year apprenticeship. So it's not trying to make it on par, right? 50-50 in any sort of a sense, it's just trying to make it better for everybody, right? Or just giving anybody the chance to experience this amazing career. I always found a lot of my personal mission is to take that little bit of, you know, well, should I go into trade, should I not, that, you know, you see a lot in junior high, high school kids. You know, that's when they're exploring everything. And there's so many great programs out there, even down into elementary schools now, to looking at helping kids explore skilled trades. My personal world, I love shop class. I wanted to be a carpenter. I had my wrap paperwork filled out, but my parents weren't quite on board with that and circumvented the system. I still ended up in construction no matter what, but that hesitancy that I think my parents had, it's part of advocating to the parents of the world for these kids coming up that could go into construction, that it is a meaningful career, it is beneficial. there's a lot of benefit to it. there's a lot of different angles that everyone out there is coming at it, but I always just like to remind that parents are a big part of that too. So at an adult level, changing their perception of the skilled trades and construction industry helps that younger demographic get the support and acceptance of a worthwhile and dedicated career path that they can succeed at. But it is a start to the next chapter in your life, right? And not only, I mean, you're not, you don't have to stay in the trades for your entire life. It's not like you're signing a contract for life, but over your time in the trades, I mean, obviously you're going to grow professionally because that's how an apprenticeship works, but the personal growth is never really talked about. And so you're going to go in there, you're going to experience things. You're going to meet people. And like so earlier feature was talking about the, the shifts of working 24 on four off, right? I lived that. And when I lived that, that was 30 over 30 years ago. We, how I sound old, but there was no internet. So you were even more isolated when you were there. And, and, but what an experience, what a character builder. And I mean, a lot of times we need to build a character and experience. to guide us in our future, whether it's in the trades or out of the trades. And Zack, and I have definitely moved off the tools and into the classroom and we couldn't have done that without that experience. But we don't want kids to be raised with this stigma towards trades. Like you say, it needs to be a viable career option no matter what your grades, no matter what, if you're interested in it, it needs to be that viable career option because we don't want these kids making friends in junior high or high school saying like, you're going into the trades. Like now you're just, it just perpetuates that cycle, right? And that stigma and we're, I mean, we're anti. Sigma. We're anti anti-trade stigma here on this podcast. So Yeah, if you don't like the trades, can get off the podcast. Carmen and Ficha, thank you so much for joining us today on What's the Word. It's been a pleasure. I've learned a lot. I'm just empowered. I want to take more. I want to get more people into the trades. It is a job that is worth trying. It's a career. Make sure everyone listening, check out diversatrade.ca. There is tons of resources and information there. You can find contact info for Ficha and Carmen, and of course, Jessica, who we had on our last episode there, which if you haven't listened to, make sure you check that one out, talking about pride and construction. Mostly you can listen to What's the Word wherever you listen to podcasts, Apple, Spotify. We are also on YouTube. Check out our website at whatsthewordpodcast.com. Connect with us on Facebook or Instagram at whatsthewordpodcast. Thank you so much for listening and have a great day, everyone.