Episode 141: Transgender Perversion

We discuss why men who claim to be women by identifying as transgender are almost all exclusively perverts. Using Lacan’s concept of perversion and what perversity of mind entails we link fetishism, sexual offending, and the need for others to collude in ‘disavowing’ the rules of reality.

‘Transwomen’ are guided at all times by the knowledge they are men, so the idea they are a woman is not quite a delusion, but rather a perverse way of relating. This creates an integral need for others to affirm and validate that false claim as a source of collusion in their ‘disavowal’ as if the laws of reality somehow do not apply to them.

Why is Lacan’s concept of the perverse useful? It offers a theoretical psychoanalytic perspective why ‘transwomen’ continually raise the stakes, push boundaries, and why an erotic charge accompanies it, as well as their incandescent rage when the other won’t pretend and agree they are women. It also explains why there’s such a higher than average rate of sexual offending for ‘transwomen’ and a confident belief that anyone at all would join in to pretend that men can be women.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Today, we're going to be talking about trans perversion. And that is because a couple weeks ago we talked about the unpopularity of trans, and I kept trying to explain exactly what this is about, this idea of uh a particular structure of mind that is perverse, that kind of underlays transgenderism. This is according to Lacan, but it's also according to me. It's something that I have certainly observed, I think is pretty verifiable and will chime with a lot of people. I do think that Lacan chats a lot of shit in many ways, but then has some really good concepts such as this that are illuminating of things that are a bit tricky to understand. So I'm gonna outline this concept and we're gonna discuss how I think this brings us to an understanding of why transgenderism is perverse and how it's a perversion and so on. I just forgot to really explain it because I'm talking to Hannah, who obviously I've had these conversations with many times, and I forget people are listening who I have not spoken to before. So I sometimes just forget to uh explain things that I otherwise should. So for Lacan, what do we really mean by perverse, pervert, and perversion? And a good way of understanding is is yes, it does relate to abnormal or transgressive sexual acts, things like sadism, you know, BDSM, exhibitionism, voyeurism, fetishism, importantly, for transgenderism, but it also represents a structural subject position in relation to the other. What does the other mean? Well, it can just mean another person, but behind that is kind of an understanding of the how we relate to other people, so just another very much relates to our early life and the original other, which is usually our mothers. So it talks about the first other and the second other, and of course, second other tends to be daddy, but it could be, I don't know, lesbian partner that is bringing up an adopted child, or it could be granny, and so on. And just to say that perversion is one of Lacan's three main ontological diagnostic structures. And by diagnostic, I don't mean to say that someone has a mental illness necessarily. So neurotic is one, perverse is another, and psychotic is another. And they kind of indicate often like how ill you can become if you are if you fall into mental illness. And these are really derived by Freud, derived from Freud. And these structures they basically indicate fundamentally different ways in relating to other people and what does that mean? So things like solving the problems of alienation, how we feel, separation from the primary caregiver, uh, castration, and what that refers to is whether you accept limits or not, basically. Um whether you accept finite reality, that's actually what castration refers to. And it's good to be castrated and accept reality and uh cause and effect and things like that. And how this relates to transgenderism specifically, uh in terms of the matter of perversion, is that the perverse subject is someone who knows the rules exist but wants you to collude with them in a denial of it. So it's not quite the same as a psychotic who has full-blown delusions, who fully and genuinely believes in, say, that they are the queen of England, or that they are a that they're eight foot, or that they are a you know, a Tyanosaurus Rex. The perverse subject is someone who say would know that biological sex exists, but that I am the exception, and not that they believe that necessarily in a way that is absolutely, as I say, all its way to the core of like, no, I have changed sex. It's more a relation to the other, whereby I want you to collude in disavowing the reality that I can't change sex. So I will assert I've changed sex and I will become very, very angry if the other person doesn't affirm that back to me. So we we already start to see the chimes going off here with transgenderism. That notion where somebody says, Oh no, there are rules, but they don't apply to you, sweetheart, this is infused with a kind of erotic charge. And so we start to see things like fetishism. So fetishism is very much about boundary breaking, it's about often doing things that are taboo or transgressive or indeed illegal. And it's the idea that, yeah, those norms don't apply to me. And if I do a criminally sexual act, like masturbate in public or wear fetish gear around children, or literally get my dong out at a train station after a pride parade, whatever it may be, that those that the that the law itself, that that is a criminal act, I will somehow like it won't apply to me and I'll somehow escape from that. And the the model overall is that its origin lies in that a primary object and a mother, it we it's more than just allowing a child to get away with things. It's often said that it's when the secondary object, which is usually dad, is undermined by the first object. So dad says, you know, it's your bedtime at eight o'clock, and your mum actually comes in a room at eight and says, Oh, don't worry, we don't need to listen to daddy. I will read you a bedtime story till nine, don't worry about it, this kind of thing. Now, obviously, it's usually a bit more dramatic than that. I'm just giving a very easy everyday example. But this idea that a child begins to inculcate that rules exist but they don't apply to me. I am the special exception. I am mommy's special little boy. Uh, me and mommy have this special relationship where reality doesn't exist. And then, of course, when they get older, this starts to um relate to a whole host of everyday things in life, like thinking that you can be a habitual criminal and get away with shoplifting all the time. You'll never get caught because the rules don't apply to you. And then it starts to have often a sexual life of its own as well. And I think when I read about this, it helped me understand the relationship between autogynophilia and these men that kept trying to insist that they were women and that they would become furious if you didn't just nod along and agree, even though they do act at times in the full knowledge that they're men, right? Like they're not afraid of women. Um, they will not want to date one another if they're heterosexual men. Like they're guided all the time by the knowledge that they are men, and yet we are invited to collude in this just in this kind of delusion, but what Lacan calls disavow. And I'll just end on an example where uh a friend of mine whose son just had a mental breakdown, decided he was a woman in his early 20s. When he decided he was a woman, that he could suddenly wear women's shoes, he said to his mum, Oh mum, we can wear shoes, we can share shoes. And she said, Well, but the thing is, she didn't say it, she said to me, I wanted to say, but I'm a size five and you're a size 11, that's just not possible. Like, why doesn't he understand this? But the fact that she wouldn't assert that to him is partly what has created him in the first place, which is the rules aren't asserted, these objective, finite things, the material reality of having feet that are too big to wear your mother's five-size shoes. But we but I see examples like that crop up all the time amongst transgender men. I don't know how much this applies to trans men. I think it applies to a considerable cohort of them, like maybe a significant minority. But I think that's much more to do with autism, lesbophobia, and narcissistic personality disorder, to be honest, than it does uh how much transgenderism for men really, really relates to this concept of perversion.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

Yeah, and it also goes to it really explains why, because the queer community, quote unquote, is such that if you are one of these men who wants people to believe that they're a woman, you could organize your life around that fact. You could go to queer clubs and pubs and societies, and you can cultivate a friendship group of people who are very similar to you who will uh feed back this delusion to you. That's entirely possible, but that's often not what they want. They show up to the miscarriage support group, they show up to the event that is exclusively woman-only, they show up to church groups that are women-only, for like with religious women and this sort of thing. They they want that affirmation from people that they know explicitly they will not, they will not get it. And there's something in that perverse need to perform that disavowal and how how much higher can I um raise the stakes? And I imagine it's more erotically charged, the more, the more the stakes are raised. Oh, I've done it to these religious women, I did it in the miscarriage support group, I did it in the um survival cancer support group, I did it in the women's AA meeting, I, you know, I did it in the rape crisis shelter. Kind of the more um the more the disav, the deeper the disavowal will be. So if women are gathered together explicitly with the intention that they are, it's a woman-only thing, to get affirmation from those women, this would be very erotically charged, I think, for a perverse person. Because I never understood that, right? Because it's entirely possible, if you are that kind of man, to just be in those circles and never have to leave them. And many of them do do that, but there's often this seeking out of environments and contexts and situations in which they know that they will be rejected as women and then demanding affirmation.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Yeah, and it's almost always seeking out it from women, never really men. Because who do women represent as an other? It's the original other which was mummy. So it's about trying to get someone who represents your mother to you again and again and again to collude with you in this disavowal of the rules of reality.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

And I just have a point about the trans men. I do think there is some of it at play in the trans men, because you do see it, a similar kind of rage. But I don't know. I would be interested in what you have to say. There is something, there is something hysterical about it and how attached it is to the body when trans men need to go to the gynecologist for a cervical smear, or they need to do something that's very explicit. They get really angry when they're reminded that actually they're female. Not all of them, but some of them really, really do. And there's something perverse in that. And I'm thoughtful about some trans YouTubers who seem to dedicate kind of their whole online presence to responding uh to feminist critiques and concerns saying, no, you're actually female, the kind of disadvantages that women experience, you also experience that seems to make them there's there's a rage present that's there that's similar to or analogous to what I find in some of these men.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Yeah, I just think it's maybe not quite 50%. That's what I mean by a significant minority percentage-wise. Because you're right, though, in general, women are not allowed to express anger, so I see more a lot of performative maudy behavior. For anyone not from England, maungy means like moodiness, and there's this kind of yeah, performative glumness. I remember, I think the first um trans man that I properly knew, though I knew her prior to that, she you know, she would say, she would call her period her boy pain. And it was always about trying to create like this contradiction, that and you were never meant to point out the obvious contradiction. And she was into BDSM. So anybody into BDSM that we just told you all, they're all perverts. So they also will have a fucked up relationship with time. Uh, they won't be able to relate to rules very well. Just to give a few examples, I mean, it's not a sexual thing, though. This is kind of the non-sexual side. They'll be the sort of people that turn up for say exams late, but then weirdly enough, they will be let in the exam. They are people that somehow manage to persuade the world quite consistently, not absolutely, but quite consistently through their absolute confidence about it or just ability to have these expectations, and then I guess other people meet them. They do there is there is someone I'm thinking of who refuses to pay to enter events, whether it's the feminist event or the theater. But she actually does manage it. Like, I'm aware of a time, like I organized a theater thing once, and she refused to buy a ticket, but she turned up. And I don't know if she lied and said, Oh, well, there aren't tickets now, or I had a ticket and I don't have one, but they let her in. And I was like, God, I guess if you do this kind of blagging confidently enough, staff are just like come right in. But this isn't due to a financial issue. This is about again saying, I can break the rules, think an absolute finite thing, like a ticket price. You know, it's not that finite, but you know, it's very clear, it has a numerical value, it's usually um advertised in advance, you know, there's it's a part of the organization and the costing of the thing. It's about asserting again and again and again, rules don't apply to me. And the the other, yeah, the perverse side of that in the way we really understand it is much more to do with um sexuality. And uh this particular book, I think it's called Lacan, the first subject. I've mentioned it so many times because it's the one Lacanian book I've read that is good. Actually, that's not true, it's one of three. Um backhanded compliment there. Uh it's um uh the way that uh you can kind of see uh this exist in its sort of apex of serial sex offenders. This isn't all sex offenders, and this book gives an example of a neurotic sex offender. So this is just someone that I think it's you know, a man who is a rapist, but a perverse sex offender will again and again and again continue because they don't believe, even after they've been caught, it's gone to, you know, they've been on trial and they've gone to prison, they still don't quite believe that the rules will apply to them this time. So it's like again and again, I can push the bounds of reality and get away with things that other people can't. Whereas your average neurotic sex offender might not persist after actually being um found out. And on this issue of rage, you have to kind of imagine, like, try and put yourself in the mindset of uh, you know, pervert trans woman. It would be like as a neurotic, someone saying to me, me saying, Oh yeah, what a nice, you know, it's Tuesday today. And someone's saying, No, it's Wednesday. And I go, it's definitely Tuesday, because I had my usual appointment that I was looking forward to on Tuesday. And then they go, No, no, it is Wednesday. And I go, look at my phone. My phone says Tuesday and it has the day, and they go, No, it's Wednesday. I'd start to feel a bit befuddled and a little bit like some consternation. And then if I went to work and I relayed this to colleagues and they all said, Well, yeah, it is Wednesday, after a while, I'm going to be quite cross. And I'd be like, No, I don't know why you're all saying this. It's not Wednesday, it is Tuesday, right? So for us who are neurotically ordered, in life, fully castrated, fully unfortunately aware of the full reality of things and cause and effect and rules and regulations and feeling, particularly um not done badly by them. Apparently, when this happens in childhood, it causes a kind of um a sense of loss, but it's a good loss for all of us who've been besmirched in such a way. We uh we would start to get quite quite mad. And then if you tinge that with feelings of you know, early childhood love, early childhood specialness, and then that develops in adulthood to uh eroticization and in fact the kind of um cornerstone of your sexuality, you can see why it inspires such rage, much as the basis of it is de facto in untruth and de facto in about continually presenting, you know, contr a contradiction basically, and hope you no one picks uh no one um points it out.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Yeah, because this is the thing. I there's kind of a debate or there was when it was still around in gender critical spaces about how much they know, how much they know that they're how how much of them are true believers and how much they know. And there are kind of camps that say there are true believers, and there are camps that say they all somewhere know. But it's kind of both. And it I think this dynamic that you're describing with Lacan describes it, it um demonstrates it perfectly. It's like they know on some level, but they want you, they want to believe it, and they want you to collude with believing it, basically. And it is, it does explain why it's so this kind of myth of the normal trans person, quote unquote. Um, it doesn't really exist because it is all about perversion. It often co-occurs with all these other paraphilias that are also about boundary pushing.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Yeah, and I think that one of the things that is overlooked, and we do have an episode specifically on BDSM, is that you kind of think like, you know, oh, why why would you want a script for sex? Like, why does there need to be roles and doesn't this take the excitement away and this, you know, relating to one another in a way that you haven't organized before, like it's a shopping trip and you're listing the the items you're gonna purchase uh at home beforehand. But a lot of the time, I think almost exclusively, but I'm hardly privy to too much information on the on the topic, is that with BDSM, it is about breaking the rules. I think they create rules in order to be broken. I don't believe this stuff about, oh, there's a safe word and it's all agreed and everybody's fine. Like I just see women on the internet, a lot of them super traumatized by BDSM. And if it was all good, not that I think you can always know in advance what will be traumatic or not, but my point is I think that they create this array of rules in the bedroom in order for them to be broken, and again, getting off on that. And I also just want to make the point that look, even as healthy neurotics, we're all perverts a little bit. What I mean by that is is that we all sort of delight in very minor transgression. This is why, you know, sometimes you might be with your girlfriend or boyfriend at university in a library and you cheekily hold hands under the table for 10 seconds, right? And this kind of thing. But this is not not anywhere near what we're talking about. The same way that some people, when they're younger, might engage in a risque sexual practice, like they might have sex outside or they might have sex quietly when someone else is in the other room and they don't want to be discovered, but they're slightly getting off on the possibility they might be discovered. These kind of things tend to be one offs or for a one off period of time. And again, you feel this. Um A hyper kind of excitement at this actually quite low level, ordinary transgression for the transgender pervert, any other kind of person in this category. It is habitual. They would not want to have sex without it. Sex has to involve voyeurism, exhibitionism, or sadomasochism. Or they actually just can't have sex normally at all, and they they're not really interested in genitals. It's just about fetishism. So it's about feet or armpits or whatever, whatever they've decided to swap in their mind into being a uh into into replacing the genital. And I think this also explains why there's such a high rate of sexual criminality amongst trans women. I mean, we know statistically that's the case. There are more transgender women sex offenders in prison than there are actual women in prison for anything. Like if people come up with these different ways of understanding statistics, but basically they're overrepresented as uh as a population that's less than 1%, they are super overrepresented um in sex offending. And again, this this ties into how how I find it so helpful to understand them as perverts. It's because, again, this need to sexually break the law in this case, so a rule, and also believing that they can get away with it, which of course they can't. So I often think that they're the least discreet about it. Whereas, say, your ordinary garden variety nonce, you know, he gets discovered 20, 30 years in or something on his like 50th victim. Whereas with trans women, they're so flagrant with it, again, because they just have this expectation that authority will not come down on them like a ton of bricks because authority doesn't apply to them. They are mummy's special little boy.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah, which is why you can't really appease them, right? Which is why like the lines of the debate are trans women are women, trans women are trans women, trans women are men. And you know, people like Chimamanda and Gozia Dici, a few others who are in the trans women or trans women camp still get shit, they still get a huge shit, they still get cancelled. It's because it's that's not good enough. It it like Young said, fanaticism is a denial. They know somewhere, and so that's why they have to be fanatical about it. They have to be, they have to bring other people in, collude with other people and bring them into this disavowal with them. And trans women or trans women does not cut it. That's not good enough.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Yes, exactly. I think it's why so many people thought, oh, we could have a reasonable discussion about this. But the protagonists of this whole issue are not just unreasonable, like we could say about any psychotic who's having a delusion that they are Santa Claus or that you know they got kidnapped by aliens. They want you to be unreasonable and they want you to kind of and they kind of know that in that they know that they want to force you to lie to them and pretend that reality doesn't exist to them. They need that from you. It's not just, oh, you can live your own life, whatever, or it's not, well, make you a separate category where trans women are trans women and it's just a different kind of thing. It kind of has to be absolute because otherwise, again, it's not in line with their whole world view, what their entire mind is almost predicated on. Like this is an overarching structure. That's a really important thing to say is this is not just say an object in the mind. This is not just a particular way of relating, it is the very structure of the mind. According to Lacan, this is something that I find helpful. I know there's other things going on as well, but it's it's that fundamental to them. And this is why a lot of them, when yeah, when you don't do that, they explode with rage. I think that they often almost would fall into like some sort of greater madness, like once those structures um aren't upheld and affirmed. Even this cut this thing of affirming, right? It's like, why, if you really are that and you believe it, why do I need to agree? Because that's integral to the perversity. It doesn't really exist on its own. It really is this thing of you know, the subject and the other. And unfortunately, the other can be anyone, particularly who represents their mother, but really anyone in front of them. And they need to hear that back, even from total strangers. And just I remember all of the clips over the years, I think it was one particular protest in Scotland where some nice lady was there looking like particularly cheerful, and this like ogre of a trans woman came over and just started screaming witch in her face. And it really is like anything that doesn't affirm me, doesn't affirm that I am beyond and outside the rules of reality, has to be burned. And I cannot tolerate it. And of course, all these people need to go see psychiatrists, and I mean they're probably not well enough to have psychoanalysis, but if they should have psychoanalysis, though I don't really know what you do to mitigate these things, because I think that maybe you can say be neurotic and then I don't know, go through some particularly debilitating, traumatic things in life, and perhaps you can fall into psychosis. I'm not quite sure that you can change from a perverse structure of mind. Perhaps you can. Any budding Lacanians out there, you can let me know. But I yeah, this is why it was so it was so make or break for them. It was so integral. And even now they kind of just seem to be pretending that they haven't lost, while sort of just deciding to, I guess, like you say, go and get affirmation from people and places that they still can, but it's now not the majority of society, not in the UK. We've definitely said no. And for them, that is like just extinct. That is that it's really probably felt to be annihilating and extinguishing. And again, it reminds me of this thing of, oh, you want to kill us all. And I I kind of think like, yeah, you probably do feel as if that's the case, that suddenly your world's fallen apart, but you kind of just need to more accept that you're crackers and that you need to get help with that. But that was why they they amped up this language to such a degree, because to them it is really, really personal and integral psychically.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah, and it's why it can't coexist.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Because to be honest, I think if I were to re-debate transgenderism, I I think it's quite good that we debated it on its own terms, like, no, you're not actually a woman or whatever. But if I were to do it again, if I wanted to do the reasonable, liberal, sort of public-facing way, if I wasn't going to use radical feminism to debate it, basically. I think what I would say is that look, we all have different sexual politics and sexual ethics. And sexual politics and sexual ethics are deeply personal. They often have to do with religion and culture and um queer theory and transgenderism is one particular kind of sexual politics and sexual ethics. But we all have to live together in a liberal democracy. So I have to work with people who are Muslims, who have Islamic sexual ethics, I have to work with um liberals, I have to work with queer theory people. We all have to go to work and be in society together. So you you're you're allowed to have whatever sexual ethics you want, but you can't push them on others. That's how I think I would re-debate it, or there's that's there's a potentially a strategy there to debate it on those terms. But it doesn't work for them. That's not good enough for them. And I think that's really how Sex Matters is approaching it. Like, you know, we there are people with all sorts of political ideas and um ideas about sexual ethics, but we all have to live live together in a liberal democracy, which is why they wanted all of these sorts of positive rights. It wasn't good enough not to be um not fired from your job for being trans, as it wouldn't be, or for having a trans identity, as it wouldn't be appropriate probably to be fired if you had Catholic sexual ethics. That wouldn't be an appropriate thing, a big basis to fire somebody on. Um, but they wanted the positive things. They wanted it reflected back to them. And I think if I were to re-if I had to relitigate the issue without using radical feminism, that's I'd probably say something like that.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Yeah, that's the thing that you have to you have to convince people of what I mean. I hopefully have done in this episode, but this psycholytic thing of, well, you know, it's sexual and it's also to do with thinking the rules don't apply to you, and that has a special meaning, and in fact, is the basis of your structure of mind. A lot of people though, people that have never read Lacan or had an interest in psychoanalysis did get that, right? Like a lot of people were like, why do I need to join in with your fetish? It's like, you know, ordinary Midwestern mothers clocked this from afar because it was really, really obvious, actually. I'm just trying to outline a bit of the uh, you know, the underlying theory here to support those observations. And it was true, it was so odd when you know, Redux and other outlets started highlighting the statistics about how many of them are sex offenders and how many of them just cannot help but be perverts, but not even at home. It's like this thing of it has to be out in the world, it's not good enough to just be an ordinary person living your life and doing whatever it might be that you know happens in the bedroom. It was always about pushing in other people's faces, coercing you as an onlooker to basically like almost have to join in, right? At that point, when someone is forcing you to say the mantra trans women are women, that's what they're doing. And that compelled speech, you know, Jordan Peterson talked about this in terms of freedom of speech rights, but actually for the transgender pervert man, that compelled speech for him is like, yeah, life affirming, worldview affirming, trying to get you to be his mother, he's gonna scream at you like he did her if you don't affirm to him that up is down and that black is white. And then it's just got it's just got this tinge throughout all of it that this is actually an erotic thing for them, and it's that it's sexual. And I think that people could instantly see that, like instantly people were like, Oh, gross. But it's uh yeah, anyway, that's what I feel is um that's that's one way that I feel is best to understand it, and why there is this interlocking thing of like sexual offending, not wanting to live in reality, and forcing you to also pretend that there is some sort of non-reality going on for this individual.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Yeah, it's also why it wouldn't work when you'd bring up like if you go down, there's like when you would go down the algorithm basically of how the debate would go, and you could always predict this. So they would go, oh, but sex is not a meaningful category because of um, you know, um differences in sexual development, and you'd go, that's not true. And then you defeat that, and then it would become about gender and gender performance. Um, and then you'd go, well, you know, there's gender non-conforming people. That doesn't mean they're the opposite sex, that's actually quite regressive. Gender non-conforming people have been a part of human societies for forever. That's not what that means. And then it would turn into, well, I just that's how I feel about myself. That's ultimately what it would come down to. I th I think this about myself. And I remember saying, like, people have ideas that are wrong about themselves all the time. Some people think that they're introverts. Turns out they have crippling social anxiety for reasons to do with childhood trauma or whatever. And then when they overcome that, they realize they're not introverted at all. Actually, they're quite extroverted. Whatever. People have wrong ideas about themselves all the time. What do you mean? But it's this idea that I have these feelings about myself and therefore I am entitled for you to reflect that back to me. Um, but that's always how the debate would go near the end, which is I just feel it's true, so therefore it's true.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Well, they were trying to say it's necessary for me, for you to pretend this. It's really, really important for me that you, the other, pretends that up is down and that black is white, because I need again and again for my perversity to be basically have have some sort of space, have a place to go, be affirmed, be how I relate to other people. And it is how they relate to other people, unfortunately. And I know it's, you know, I suppose at this point we would say what one to two percent of the male population. And I guess there's other ways to be a pervert, as we say, with just a serial sex offender who doesn't call himself transgender, but it's still quite considerable. Like it's still in you know, in terms of the actual like raw numbers of a population, one to two percent is a lot. So anyway, I think that because now, certainly in the UK, we have pretty much robustly defeated transgenderism, because they don't have that institutional affirmation, it has meant a kind of quietening. Like they are shutting the fuck up because I guess there's just less supply. There's less supply of this perverse validation out there to get. So I guess they've just gone back onto internet forums to talk to other people that consider themselves trans to get it. But I'm just I'm yeah, it's uh it's a huge relief that this is no longer a supply that is expected, a supply that is expected from everywhere and everyone and anything. Because that's really what it was like five years ago.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

Yeah, it really was, and they they seem to be licking their wounds and doing the we're so oppressed um dance, to which I say, good, like fine. Are you you're mad that you lost? Okay. Go on and be mad that you lost. You the fact is that you lost. And I think that they're so defeated, particularly in this country, in the United Kingdom, that they um they're not even doing kind of loud displays about how oppressed they are. I think they I think that there's probably been some internal discussions about how they fucked up with the kids stuff. Because it was the one layer was the sports, and then when they started, when people became aware of how um God, what's the word? Horrifying the things that they were advocating be done to children. Um you know, it was completely over.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

I don't know if they're capable of internal discussions because that would require reflection. I think that it may well be that's that when say a BBC reporter comes along and they know they've got a sympathetic ear, that it's the same. I think they're just aware they've lost a a lot of, well, all of the sympathy basically. And that if you moan about it online, people will just sort of make jokes. And I think that most people are now coming to terms with like like we should suppress evil, we should suppress perversion, we should make perverts feel ashamed and be like, oh, I can't do this in public. Oh, actually, maybe there's something wrong with me. News flash, there is. Maybe then I should go to see a psychiatrist, a psychoanalyst, or try and live in a way that doesn't bother other people too much. And before that was just uh seemingly an attitude that was very, very difficult to find anywhere, whereas now that's an attitude that is all over X as a huge social media site. So, yes, all right. Well, thank you very much for listening. Uh check us out on Patreon if you want to listen to more bonus episodes to our more spicier content. And also, we've recently done a series on personality disorders if you're into psychoanalytic discussions. And we will see you next week. See you then.