Episode 142: Do Men Need Their Own Spaces?

We discuss whether men should be entitled to their own single-sex spaces using the example of Men in Sheds, a club set up specifically for men that has recently been infiltrated by their wives and female partners. We also consider why exceptions to the rule should never guide policy, the reasons why women want to join men's clubs that cater to very male hobbies, and to what degree women have power over men.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Hello and welcome to Red Femme. I'm Jen. This is Hannah. I don't know if we get new listeners, maybe we do, so I thought I should introduce us for that, that little bit, rather than just launching into the topic. But here I am about to launch. Today we're going to be talking about do men need their own spaces? So single sex spaces for men. And I have an example to talk through that changed my mind. I certainly used to think that, you know, because I was just on the eighth level of rad femme, lesbian separatist insanity, I'd be like, no, this is what I thought, you know, five years ago. They don't need, they don't need their own spaces because men and women are different in this way, and men aren't as vulnerable, and they don't really need that. So they could have a mixed toilet, and it wouldn't be a big deal. But actually, women do, and women are more sexually vulnerable, and blah, blah. And to an extent, all those things are true. But I actually have come around to the idea very much because I think it is important that men have their own spaces for particular reasons that we will go through. And the thing that changed my mind was this thing called Men in Sheds. So some guy started almost like a bit of a social club for men where they go into these shed-like structures and they do carpentry and have a beer and have a chat and whatever it is men like to do, God only knows. And women have infiltrated men in sheds, or at least one branch, one branch that has uh received media attention. So this has been in the news a couple of times. And it started, it seems, with a man's wife wanted to join him in his uh men in sheds hobby club. And then, of course, lots of other women decided that they too wanted to do woodwork in a shed. Sorry, it's just so funny to think about. And so men in sheds is now, you know, for at least for this particular branch, people in sheds. And I I guess it must have changed, there must have had to be a change um to the policy. And in fact, now within this, you know, I don't know if you would really call it a shed, but but it's uh a building, there's in fact now a little room in there that is men only where men can retreat to away from their wives and uh and girlfriends, and that's just their one little room. I just thought, oh, this is ridiculous. Like, I think it's correct that men, when they are around women, should not conduct themselves, should not conduct themselves in the way they do around other men. Like being very crude, using very crude humour, it can be threatening towards women because women are aware that men are much more physically, you know, much more stronger than them, the same way that sometimes men can make um very aggressive jokes, have very aggressive forms of banter. And even if women aren't the targets, you can sometimes feel a bit like, oh, you know, I wouldn't like that applied to me, that's a bit scary, whatever. But this is the way men talk to each other often. So in order for them to have that aspect of their friendship, and a lot of male friendship is just taking the piss out of each other, which I think is good, normal, and healthy, they do therefore need their own areas to do that in. And I just I don't believe that it's credible that there are a bounty of middle-aged women who desire to do woodwork. I don't believe it. I don't believe that there are women out there that just really want to make a birdhouse and really want to make, I don't know, a box to give someone. And if they did, they could make their own women's version, right? They could. Because though there probably are some women that are a bit unusual that are into these kind of pursuits. Though I've never I've met some of the butchest lesbians in the entire world. I've never met one who was like, you know what my passion is? Carpentry. I'm sure there's one out there, maybe a couple out there. This is not even a common phenomenon amongst the most like butch women in the entire world that make me feel like a little fairy flower. But apparently these heterosexual boomer women just really, really needed to get in on their husband's spaces and not allow them to even have their own fucking hobby and their own afternoon away and their own, you know, social space with other men where they might say things that they don't want their wife to hear, right? Like crude jokes or whatever. And yeah, it just, I thought, God, I'm so convinced by this. And it made me think about how historically men and women have never spent as much time together as they do today, and that men and women are very different, and actually, it's fine for us to have a considerable, even if you know you're a straight person married to the opposite sex and whatever. I think it's actually probably a good, healthy, normal thing to have times of space away from one another and with the same sex. Hannah, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Well, it makes me think about Jermaine Greer and the female eunuch. She has a section in there where she talks about marriage and she talks about her own childhood, and she writes quite critically about her own mother really resenting her father having friends or hobbies, and often that there would be these attempts to sabotage his time with his friends or his leisure time or whatever. Um, and she sort of had this analysis that this comes about by comes about from like a resentment or a frustration with the relative kind of lack of freedom that women have compared to men, and that's that this was a really horrible situation, sort of for everyone involved. And it just it brings that analysis to the front of my mind, really, that this is maybe um acting out of a kind of uh resentment or jealousy. I would also say that, you know, there were uh feminist criticisms and and uh lawsuits and legal actions about men-only spaces because within the men-only spaces, men were making decisions that that were relevant to women's lives. So it would be, you know, um the men go to the men's only social club after work and exclude that necessarily like excludes the women in the office, and then they would make decisions and and network, and there would be opportunities to present your ideas and be promoted and so on, and make decisions relevant to the business that women didn't the women didn't get input into, and then women would miss out on those opportunities to be promoted because they're not networking, they're not being social. And then in these kinds of cases, I think it's understandable that those sorts of things should not be allowed. Um, but it's a very hard, I think, to justify a case for special rights because there's a case for special rights for women that come secondary to just women having different bodies. So obviously women aren't entitled to things like maternity leave because it would be impossible as a special right. This would be impossible for a man to be entitled to maternity leave in the same way because men don't give birth. And then you think, okay, there's other special rights for women that women are allowed to have women-only um social groups or groups for sports or whatever. Um it but it becomes um really precarious, a really precarious thing if the if the biological difference is not there. So women entitled to um maternity leave and then this special right of having women-only social groups, you're allowed to discriminate against men, not let them in. But there's no biology, there's no um factor of biology necessarily in the fact that it's social, you know. So there's there's no there's no justification to have to not provide that special right to men as well. And I do think it makes us just look a bit stupid. Um further reason, and all and like it proces these counterintuitive examples like um, yeah, like woodworking groups or um what's another real mate male-coded thing, trains or something, like all these kind of like quite autistically coded hobbies that some women are into, but very few women are. And I know as well that there's like a certain kind of feminist who would hate if um, and we know this because of the gender critical movement, we would hate if um a man got into, you know, you would see some gender critical feminists being critical of men going to like makeup conventions or something, like why are you here? So I don't, I don't think it's um like it's a very hard position to maintain. Like in those cases where you know you're that exclusion provides like a like an economic disadvantage, then fine. But otherwise I don't I don't understand how it could be ethically or legally justified. In which direction? To not allow men to have social groups that are men male only.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah, I mean, I feel like if it's a you know it's a private social group and the whole point was to create a space for men to be able to talk to each other and you know, lots of the coverage had this kind of coding of this is to support men's mental health and stuff like that. And you know, maybe that is one of the goals, but overall, it just seems to be a bit of a social thing to do with trains and and uh woodworking, and my perspective used to be this, and I suppose I still have some credence with it, where the radical feminist view, though I don't know if this would be actually admitted openly, but there's an assumption where women are so oppressed under patriarchy that they lack a sense of self. And I certainly do see that, though I'm not sure I'd attribute that to patriarchy anymore, and that women would be interested in making bird houses and having modeled train sets if only they had the confidence to go out there and buy a train set and make a birdhouse. As you can see, I think this is slightly ridiculous, you can tell from my tone, and that I'm just incredulous to the idea that women don't do things that they want to do all the time and are incapable of making choices and what on uh and whatever. But I think that I did used to see these examples where it would be like, yeah, um, Simon is really into dirt biking and he goes dirt biking on the weekends with his wife Sally. And I'd be like, is Sally really into it? Like, this is so unusual for like a married middle-aged woman uh to have such a dangerous hobby uh to do with, you know, mechanics and motorbiking. And I used to think, well, really, she's just doing that thing of wanting to reproduce him subjectively, and there's also probably a bit of a sad sack, and we'll feel lonely on the weekend without him. She probably hasn't developed herself much without him because of course patriarchy stops you being able to do that. And that was the way I understood this thing of women moving in on men's hobbies. It was like, oh my, I can only live uh in relation to my husband, so I could never have a hobby outside of him. And whilst I pay some there's some credence to that, I actually think that there is also a bit of a thing of, as you say with Jermaine Greer, which is he's not allowed to have his own thing. He's not allowed to have a world outside of me. And this is often what men are accused of uh by women with the feminist lens of, you know, she's not allowed to have a world without him. But actually, I think it's more that men and women are primed um in certain ways, and I and I just I just don't buy it. I don't believe that these women genuinely want to take up these incredibly male, often autistic, uh so male-brained pursuits. And I think that there is something there about I want to muscle in on whatever you've got, and I want to eat off your plate, not just financially, but even in this way of um of kind of furthering myself in terms of a hobby and a bit of nice social time. And I feel like if we have the expectation, and I certainly hope we do, that men should be chivalrous towards women, this whole idea of being a warrior on the battlefield and as meek as a mouse in the dining hall with ladies, this C.S. Lewis essay. Well, then you kind of need to give them, now we don't have battlefields, a space where they can, um, yeah, as I say, do forms of banter, be aggressive in ways that we wouldn't like and would make us feel a bit, you know, funny or a bit um intimidated or whatever. And I just, yeah, I thought, what a shame, like what a shame that Men in Sheds has been infiltrated by um by women. And again, it's generally women attached to the men. And I find it strange. I'm like, they can have something. And I suppose it's it's um as soon as you form a club and you start to have certain structures and policies, whether yeah, it's a motorbiking club and you all go out on your bikes, or it's a physical space, like uh, I mean, they call it a shed, but it looks like quite a big building, really. Then suddenly it's like this idea that these structures can't be respected. And I think that there's people on both sides, like there's, you know, on in both sexes that have this idea of like, oh well, that's uh that's annoying, that a policy excludes me. Well, yeah, that's fine though. And if you want to do your own thing, you want to make a woman in sheds, that's absolutely cool as well. I'm sure there's lots of autistic women into trains that would love to have a model train set with you and watch it run on a Saturday and discuss it and paint the train parts. And um I feel like there is this thing where I guess it's in liberal feminism, but this like you can have your cake and eat it, where women get their own spaces, but men don't. And you get to have your own hobbies, like a women's knitting circle, but men shouldn't. And I just I find it um really, really odd. And it comes across as this thing of like uh not only are you not adhering to the kind of the spaces of equality where you women are allowed their own stuff, so men should be as well. But it I almost feel like it's more petty than that, it's much more just like, well, you're not allowed to have something if I can um wheedle in on it. And again, like I just assume this is to do with tensions in different relationships, but it genuinely made me feel sorry for the men that have to have their own little men's room within the building. Because it's like they've had to retreat back to like a what will be the equivalent of like a staff room, just like a little area where they can then speak without women, because I do again like um certainly when there's like a women's group, whether it's a book club or something, I don't know, like a miscarriage support group, as soon as there's a man in the room with women, I do believe that radical feminist notion that then suddenly it's a male space because it does change the atmosphere, it does change what you're willing to say, it does change the dynamics very much. And I feel like whilst that might not be as potent in the other direction, I think a woman being around probably does change the dynamic. And if it doesn't, it's going to be um odd that she's there at all. Like if men are telling, yes, a sexual joke or moaning about their wife. There's going to be a self-consciousness on both sides, both the man and the woman who happens to be listening. Uh, and I think if we don't want people to self-censor, or we do want people to be able to talk about mental health troubles or whatever, I just feel like it's so clear to me that both sexes should be able to spend time with only their sex for the betterment actually of everyone.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

What would you say? Because you seem to be talking about the cases that involve typically male-centered hobbies that will have some women, but not very many women, interested in them, like trains and carpentry. What about um things that don't involve those hobbies? So, a book club where they're reading the classics. You know, a woman could have a book of women's women could have book clubs reading the classics. There are cases that don't involve these male-centered hobbies that are just men's only groups. What would you say about that?

SPEAKER_00 18:13

I think it's probably up to them. And a book club is less social than a place where you go and make, you know, a birdhouse. And men in sheds will set up to be a bit of a social support group for men by men. I feel like mixed stuff exists all over the shop. Like, you know, every pub is mixed pretty much, as far as I'm aware. Book clubs are mixed. Women will have a book club, and I think that often men don't need to set them up. But if they did, I think that would quite quickly become a gay men's book club, whether in uh certain maybe not in name, but certainly in practice. And yeah, I kind of think they're allowed to have it. And I think the same thing would happen, where it would be a bit weird if there was a woman there and men would start to self-censor, and then they'd start to have an ad, you know, an extra thing that was just for them. They then had to organize on top. And look, you can see this in um, I watched a very good documentary recently called The Queen of Chess on Netflix, and it's about one of the daughters of that parental couple that I've mentioned on here before, who were Soviet psychologists and they were constructionists, and they wanted to make a point about a development having precedence over genes. So these two Soviet psychologists got together and they ran this experiment through their family. And in fact, they had four daughters and they made them all into chess champions. Uh but one of the daughters called Judith Polgar, she was much better than even all the sisters. And she is the only woman that had managed to win the open chess championship that includes men, basically. She's the only woman to have won it. Obviously, she would win the women's chess championships like year after year after year. And I kind of thought a bit like, you know, races, like you know, sporting races, you have a women's category and a mixed category. And no one in the chess world really minds that, because it is true in general that men, you know, there's many more men that are expert chess players than women. Whereas, and they've done studies where a woman will perform worse if she's playing chess against a man. Some sort of psychological thing of he's better than me or or whatever, because chess is particularly male. So I understand why they have that, the women's category in the open category, and we all understand it with racing. Particularly, uh usually it's just like fun runs. This isn't the Olympics. They'll they'll have an open category which will be run by men, won by men, and the but they'll note who won. Who was the first woman? And then, of course, women have their own separate ones.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

I guess what I'm saying is that you seem to be implying because of the nature of the hobbies, whether it's chess or carpentry or whatever, that there is an exclusion of women that is like secondary to the nature of the hobby. Um, women aren't as interested, so they don't have to be doing much exclusion. I'm saying in a case that there is no gender dynamics to the hobby. Let's think of something completely neutral, where there is going to be no exclusion that relates to the nature of the hobby. It's just a men's group as a men's group as a men's group. Um, because you seem to kind of be saying the principle doesn't matter that much because women are excluded anyway by the nature of the hobby. Do you get what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, that's not what I'm saying, though. I'm saying that I don't believe it, that the women want to be there for the hobby. I think they want to muscle in on a men's space, particularly their husband's spaces, um, because of the I'm just pointing that out that that's a characteristic. That it is a very, very male hobby, and therefore it makes me incredulous to that notion. But I think that if men start a social group that is intended for men, and then they happen to pick something that men are more interested in than women, that makes sense, and that they should be allowed that. That doesn't mean though, like let's think of something mixed. What's something that is really non-gendered?

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Well, that's why I picked reading classics, because I think that might be something that both sexes are at least in the West, reasonably both interested in. I think that men probably, even if it's not gendered, still have that right. Because of the deck, because I think legally very hard to justify if we're gonna say women's only social stuff, swimming, something like that. Both sexes kind of enjoy swimming. Um, and let's say it's not competitive, let's not not add that factor. Um, I think that it's very, very hard to justify um a special right for women. Women are allowed to enjoy um social groups on their own, even in cases where the the thing being done socially is not gendered, but men aren't. I don't I don't think that you can justify that. The special rights that are having to do with biology obviously, and then also if it's meant male only and then women are being excluded and then getting economic disadvantage, sure. But I don't I don't think you can legally or ethically justify men not having social spaces, even if the thing isn't gendered male.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah, well, I think I made it clear about I kind of think with mixed, like a book club, as far as well, where there are no men's book clubs precisely for this reason. And it's not that social, right? It's not set up as a social thing, even if that's why some people attend. And like I said, I think if there was a men's one, it would be a gay one on the down low. Um, I should say about swimming because you get your kit off. There may well be some men that are like only I only want to swim around men, some women that say, Oh, I only want to go um cold sea swimming around women, but it's quite difficult to um siphon off the sea for yourself for 90 minutes. So, yeah, no, I do think most things make sense as mixed. I just think if something is explicitly set up for men as a social thing, and then it happens to involve a very male hobby, there's no reason for women to go there other than a nefarious reason that is undisclosed.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah, and I think from looking at it from first principles, um, even if it's not a male-coded hobby, I think it's just I think it's just very hard to justify. And there are men's only book clubs. Are there? I've just heard of them.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

I know that they exist, yeah. And are they openly advertised or is it a bit of a friend network?

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Yeah, I I don't yeah, I don't know. But I have heard of them. And what's the reasoning there? Just wanting to be around men and read books with men and not women. This is what this is I think this is the crux of the issue because I think, yeah, if it's male-coded, then the the work is already kind of being done and then it's male-coded. There's not going to be very many women who want to join anyway. So I I, you know, there's there there the the ethics of that are kind of easier. I'm saying when it's an entirely neutral hobby, an entirely neutral reason for for meeting our men still interest, are men still allowed to do that?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

It's difficult really, because I feel like when I think back to the days of not just pre-woke, but the the long-gone 2000s. If you were a woman that was interested in a particularly male-coded hobby, or even if just you were a woman sometimes that was like in an office full of men, you did have these really exclusionary experiences where you would like try to speak to one and they would just not speak to you, and they would carry on speaking to each other, and you'd be stood there sort of observing these conversations and be like, why am I not part of these conversations? So I do get the sentiment of like why the second wave took on these particular uh things. And the same way I think with women set up like a knitting club or whatever, and then one guy wants to go along who's particularly interested, it's kind of like, okay, and you need to make that explicitly women if it wasn't going to involve that. But then women do have like the women's institute here, who I think do lots of charity work and maybe sell jam at fates, I don't know. But it's it is difficult. Yeah, if you are a woman uh genuinely wants to join a biker group, often, in my experience, you are de facto excluded by the men there. That's the thing. And you do feel a bit unwelcome and whatever, because you can't relate to them as they relate to one another as men. And there is there is this, say, maybe old-fashioned sexist idea still of, well, you know, you're a woman, why would you be interested in this? And there are exceptions to all of these general rules, but this is why I kind of think that it is good nowadays when clubs set up and they have a kind of constitution or whatever, that they're a bit explicit about whether it's mixed or whether it's not. And then people kind of feel this obligation a bit to, well, yeah, we do need to include everybody that turns up, or we need to make it clear that they're excluded and that's that, and that this is just a lesbian group, or this is just a gay man's reading book club, or this is uh um just for men to make birdhouses and hang around in sheds. I feel like that that sentiment and pressure has resulted in this, which does mean that there is a bit more explicit organizing. But then I find it, yeah, I still think it's pretty sad when those are set up. And then somehow it's undermined. And you can go, well, you know, it's not as important because it's just women undermining men, and as you say, it's not a um, it's nothing to do with the body or anything like that. But I just sort of think like such a cheap shot. It's such a cheap shot to do that.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

Yeah, and I think um one of the splits between radical feminism and liberal feminism that's really significant and sort of re-emerged in the gender critical movement is that, you know, uh equality, such a loaded word, doesn't mean being identical. And I think that this was a theme that that came up a lot. And we it I I I find it really hard to say, um, you know, because of this, women are allowed their special things, but men are not. I'm aware that like the reply is that, oh, well, there is a power dynamic, but if you can control for things, if you can control for um how that these men only groups would exert power over women, like I said, not not in examples that would economically disadvantage them. Um men doing carpentry at a shed or having a book club or whatever doesn't necessarily um put women in any, it's not an ex it's not an exercise of power over women, is it? So it's it's um yeah, I I I just I I find it hard to justify. And I think it's interesting. One of the one of the vintage gender critical Twitter debates, um, I don't know, maybe three, four years ago, was a debate about um men doing makeup and men coming to like makeup conventions and usually um gay boys doing like makeup tutorials and so on. And some women, um, I think uh speaking um, you know, with goodwill and and just being honest, said, look, like it does it does actually make me uncomfortable to go to the makeup counter and there's a young man in his 20s with a full face of makeup. I don't want to take makeup advice from a man. Um, and then people said, Oh, well, this is reifying gender and that's terrible. But some women do feel that way. And I'm sure men feel the same way about the equivalent. Um, but yeah, I I I like, do we do we want to live in a world where these where we can make it, we can make be allowing of these exceptions, where we always let in the kind of um the very few people who are gender non-conforming into the sex space. And unfortunately, I think that did open the floodgates to to transgenderism, you know. Um, as much as I don't think that the 20-year-old boy at the at the Mac makeup counter with a face full of makeup is like some sinister thing, we saw where it led, and then you ended up with autogynophiles at the miscarriage support group, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Well, I don't think that whilst I feel I I don't think exceptions can be the rule. They do prove the rule, and I don't think we should cater in general for exceptions because 99% of people are highly gender non-conforming. Sorry, 99% of people are highly gender conforming. And whilst, and this is always the left hard response, whilst it is true that everyone is gender non-conforming to a degree, that doesn't mean that we go to the 1% of the population or the five to 10% of everybody and go, let's organize around that, let's apply that as a general logical rule. It's just it's ridiculous. Um, and I feel like that is so much what leftism today is. It's finding exceptions or saying, oh, we're all not perfectly gender conforming. It's like, yes, indeed. But why would it be the case then that you take either a minority or the minority parts of people and go, well, we'll organize social life around that then? I mean, it's just ludicrous. And by the way, I make this point in my book that's out later this year. And uh I feel like also, you know, when we talk about power dynamics, it's not true that women don't have power over men. Like the guy that started his uh Men in Sheds Club, his wife evidently has power over him because she managed to wheedle her way in to his bloody shed club that was supposed to be for men. It was supposed to be that he got a bit of time out from domestic life with his wife. And she was like, No, mate, you're not having a fucking five minutes without me breathing down your neck. It's not true, it's not true that women don't have power over men. Uh, we could say it's less power, but certainly um it's not true that the power dynamic is all one way, especially in close quarters between you know relatives and married couples, family members, and so on. So I feel like uh it's funny to watch how leftists will take um these minority sentiments all the time or these exceptional things, but then they often will not accept that say, yeah, well, it's just true that sometimes women do have more power over men, especially in um actually romantic life. And this is something that you know many, many, many radical feminists I've encountered would could never accept. But it's it's not true that women are just powerless, frail little, you know, babies. Clearly, that woman manipulated her way into the men's club and in fact brought lots of women with her.

SPEAKER_01 34:03

Yeah, and I I think like I think it's also like an overcorrection. I think so much so many things could be understood through this like a lens of overcorrection. I think we've most women have been in a situation where uh a man will come to the table at the pub or at a workplace or whatever and shake the hands of all the men of all the men and not shake your hands or not introduce himself to you, like and it it's a frustrating experience. So I think that there could be um an element here of we're overcorrecting for that. And I think it genuinely was horrible. And I think for women in um workplaces, I remember there was um in particular a real, I mean, I'm sure in lots of industries, but in like in news reading, for example, like it was really awful, and there was um women who entered those kinds of workplaces who received a lot of hostility often through this, these like mechanisms of like social exclusion. So I could see that there could be an overcorrection, but I think that we can be reasonable and go, there's kind of a world difference between, you know, we're gonna invite everyone, all the men at the workplace, and you're the only female newsreader to the men's only club and you're at home being like, what the fuck? Um and expecting hostility the next day, and um, some middle-aged men doing carpentry and sheds, you know. I think there's probably a difference there.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Yeah, I think it's hard for people to realize that maybe it is particularly outside of the workplace that women, particularly wives, of have always had power and influence over their husband through having access to them, talking to them, right? Like at home. I think this is something that probably doesn't get as uh the well, the acknowledgement, certainly on the left or in feminism, as is real, but it was always this idea historically that a king had to choose a queen that would be a good advisor, and that often there would be these understandings in medieval history that really the queen was running the king. I don't know, and I don't think that speculation was simply malicious. Maybe sometimes it was, but it's not true that there haven't been like very wise women, that even it when power had to be indirect like that, that that wasn't a form of power. And this is actually I think how most women view power in this feminine way of it's indirect and it's through a man. And I don't agree with that. Like, I think you should have your own power and blah blah blah, but like we can't reconstitute everybody who already feels that way. So anyway, yeah, I uh good luck to all the women making batteries and doing electrical works and getting into radio this weekend with their husbands.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Well, thank you for listening. If you're interested, we do have a Patreon with a back catalogue of God knows how many episodes now, Jennifer. I don't 140, something like that. Mental 140 episodes on our Patreon if you'd like to listen. We also put out an episode there every week. And uh we will put out a new episode next week on this stream. So thanks so much. Bye, everyone. Bye bye.