The Truth About Leadership Beyond Titles

If you’ve ever watched a “leader” hide behind a title, chase a credential, or win a promotion by being great at politics instead of great at results, this conversation is for you. We sit down with Drew Christensen, leadership expert and author of *Discover The Truth About Leadership*, and we keep it blunt: real leadership starts with the person in the mirror, not the org chart.

We dig into authentic leadership, self-awareness, and why the best leaders don’t cling to one framework. Sometimes you need intensity, sometimes you need calm, but you always need judgment and integrity. Drew shares why he wrote the book, including the moment he got pulled into an absurd “kill this meeting” situation and realized how much modern work rewards motion over meaning.

Then we go straight at the credential economy: MBA programs, higher education ROI, and student loans that feel impossible to escape. We talk about how tuition incentives get warped, why a “check the box” degree can be worthless without real skill, and why trades and hustle often outperform prestige. From hiring signals like GPA to corporate culture problems like perception management and internal marketing, the thread stays the same: simplicity is confronting, honesty is rare, and both are necessary if you want real impact.

If you like no-fluff leadership advice, practical business insight, and a candid take on education and career myths, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who’s tired of the game, and leave a review so more people can find the truth.

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Transcript

Meet Drew And Define Leadership

SPEAKER_01 0:04

I've been holding back every time.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Alright, everybody, another day, another doll, or another one of my favorite episodes of my favorite podcast because I am biased. What if it did work? Tonight's guest or today's guest, whatever time you're listening, Drew Christensen, leadership expert, author, speaker dedicated to redefining what it truly means to lead. Through his work, he challenges conventional leadership models, helps individuals and organizations move beyond titles and authority to embrace authentic influence and purpose-driven leadership. As the author of Discover Discover the Truth About Leadership, Drew focuses on the internal transformation required to lead effectively, emphasizing self-awareness, trust building, and the power of serving others. His message resonates with entrepreneurs, executives, emerging leaders who are ready to lead with clarity, integrity, and impact. How's it going, Drew? Doing great. How about yourself? Hey man, uh I gotta say, I I love the book. I'm glad you know I got a copy, got got to read it. Put it to you this way. It's one of those, I think it's a must-read. And I know I read that, that's who it should be, but we're all leaders. We we all we all have the leader within us. Now, are we great leaders? You only become great by doing something on a consistent basis, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

You know, it's funny. Uh one one of the many leadership courses I've taken, they they kind of tried to deconstruct and they said, All right, let's put a list of what you you think of a leader. And then they were like, Well, have you ever had a leader without that characteristic? And they they tried to narrow it down and they came up with there's there's literally one thing that that is consistent across leadership, and it is a person, it's yourself. Um everything else, you can have a a leader who is very, you know, they yell all the time, and that's that's actually sometimes an effective strategy for the type of leadership that needs to be done. So um one of the things I thought was uh interesting about that, and it actually helped influence how I wrote this book, was um I thought it was insightful to think about uh a lot of leadership books, a lot of uh of uh books out there and and self-help books and stuff tried to give you a framework. And the piece that I thought was most interesting is there are times when the right leadership strategy is to yell at people, and then there's times when it's to be very soft-spoken. So rather than giving a framework and say, like, hey, there's there's lots of books out there that give you a framework on leadership, what are the things that are consistently um not being done? And and try to create a situation where as you read the book, um, one, you don't take it too seriously. I don't I don't want people to take it too seriously because it's a lot harder to be introspective when you're um taking things very seriously, but really to put a mirror on yourself and say, like, you know what, you're right, I have been that person. Shoot, I didn't even think about that. And um some of my friends, as they've read it, they've they've asked me a question, they said, Hey, which parts of these were were you thinking about me when you wrote? And and I said, you know, I there's almost everything in that book I have been at one point or another. Um and I think that's that's uh it's valuable to make sure that especially when you're trying to become some someone better and and to become uh a leader, you think beyond um think beyond being right and wrong, and you think about how do you how do you approach things in a cool, level set manner that you can be methodical, thoughtful, and constantly challenge yourself to become better.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Well, uh the cool calm collected uh to me it depends on I mean I've I've been all the above. I've been that, I've been the stoic leader, I I've I've been uh the Bobby Knight slash Nick Saban scream. Now the older I got, I realized I didn't want to give myself an aneurysm or a stroke over at the time I'll I was my my team was all high school and college kids. And I I realized that the older I got, the less I could connect with them, and I certainly didn't want to give myself a heart attack over that. And definitely the younger generation, I don't know how it is in boot camp because these days, because I I know the kids kids want to know that they matter, and they they want you to be a buddy to them and and and like a Sherpa instead of the the drill sergeant. No, that definitely that they wouldn't want the guy from Full Metal Jacket just screaming at them and calling them Gomer Pyle these days.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Yeah, and and it's funny, as one of the things I'm hoping uh folks as they read this book they think through is the number of times, like uh there's a story in the book about uh it was it was three questions, and I'm gonna give away a part of the book, but um, three questions were asked in a in a course while I was getting my MBA. What what do you see when someone uh if someone has an MBA on their resume, what do you see? And then they asked for that specific university, and then they asked, like, why are you specifically getting an MBA? And I and I thought it was insightful, and I'm hoping that people really take it to heart as they look at higher education, they look at what they're getting in their undergraduate degree and their master's degrees, and and what they're looking how much money is wasted when you go to these programs that are for all legal and obligation, like for all aspects of them, they are legally obligated to make as much money as possible, even nonprofits, you have a fiduciary obligation to the organization. And it is still like the last form of indentured servitude in the United States is student loans. That is a horrific thing, the fact that we still have indentured servitude. You can go bankrupt and you still have student loans. And I look at like how we've created this huge empire of education. And I and one of the things I like to ask is like if you're getting education, to me, I there's there's you can go to Harvard, you can go to Yale, they give away their classes for free online. You can go watch them, you can get that same education, literally spend zero dollars. And if you want that, check the box. You're gonna have to spend 160, 180,000,$200,000 to get that box, that that piece of paper that, in all practical purposes, is worth nothing more than a piece of toilet paper. Um, you I the number of people I've met that have MBAs that I just look at and I'm like, I don't okay, you went to a prestigious university, great. Did you work hard? Did you do you think strategically? Do you think outside the box? Do you actually do things? Or are you just placating? Have you been taught by the system how to get a 4.0? And I think it's it's I I don't know how to um, I don't know your if you have any thoughts on like how do you like instill to to not only the the future generation but the current generation as they're looking at future degrees and stuff like making sure that we're we're really thinking about the value proposition and really understanding what we're spending money on.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

And this is from 1999. I went to go get my master's degree twenty-five thousand dollars from Santanyu, better known as University of Miami. I got the master's degree in communication, the biggest waste of money, twenty-five thousand dollars. I could have taken that money and gone to Vegas, and at least I would have enjoyed it because one, it was all these doctors just condescending, treating me like shit, talking down to me. I guess it was preparing me for marriage or working in corporate America. I don't know. I I only went to get my master's degree because I was and full disclosure, everybody. My mom told me it would be as much fun as getting my bachelor's. Now, granted, my mom has a bachelor's, doesn't have a master's, so she doesn't know what the hell she's talking about. So here I am, I'm I'm getting ready for all the keggers and whatnot. And it's these doctors just treating me like shit and treating everybody like crap. People that are locked into a fake world of academia. And full disclosure, I went to LSU, the number one party school. My grades were you know comparable to that. The the local university here, when I sent them my transcripts, I I mean this was before the internet. I think I got the rejection letter quicker than than anything. I mean, I it was faster than some women rejected me asking them out on a date. And then, you know, the University of Miami. This shows you how much of a business academia is. So tell me, Omar, how who is gonna pay for this? I'm like, well, you know, I've I've got I've got money. Well, while you're provisionally accepted, why didn't you say so? But yeah, no, what I would tell anybody is I mean, what are you getting, what are you looking to get out of going to for one, getting a master's degree? Now, if if you're going uh somewhere where there's a uh this vast network and you you're gonna rub elbows and you know you're you're gonna run into the guy that's gonna give you the shot, then sure. But more than likely, like me, I mean, even my bachelor's degree, it's in communications. Uh it taught me how to communicate at an eighth-grade level. Now, now, granted, I I loved going to college because I was a severe introvert, severe social retard. Uh, I mean, I I literally wrote the book that I had to leave Miami to find my I guess my my purpose. But I didn't have to go to college, I could have gone to the probably a community college or whatnot. But academia, it isn't it is slavery. Think about this. That's the only debt that you could file bankruptcy 50 times, and they're still like, okay, Joe, when are we gonna get our money from X university, whatever university you went to? And it's insane. And kids are like, we're we're soon to be like Japan. People are, I mean, there's all these reels. Oh my gosh, I need a how do you break it down? Your your child got deferred or got rejected. This is how you do it, honey. They got fucking rejected. It's life. Get over it. There's a thousand other schools, man. You don't need a safe place, you need to wake up with your kid needs to wake up. Did you like my other you weren't expecting any of that about academia from me, were you?

SPEAKER_02 11:42

No, it's so it's funny because like I was thinking about my mother when she she was uh she was able to pay her way every every year. Her summer job was able to pay for more than half of your school year, and she went to a private uh university. And like, and and she and I talked about it, like I had a much better summer job, like significantly better, but I couldn't pay for one semester with that summer job. I barely could afford half of my room and board for that same thing. It's just it's utterly ridiculous. And and the number of times that like I look at actually one of the things I look for when I look at a resume is um, especially for for people that are coming out of college, is I I don't care about your GPA as much. It's it's not the indicator. If you got a 3.0, whatever, who cares? Um, if you got a 4.0, I actually question more because if you got a 4.0, you're you're ingrained in the system. You're you're making professors happy, regardless of whether they're right or not. And I'll I'll never forget one time I went through my undergrad and I I recognized that I was making choices at times that affected my grade. If you piss off a professor, sometimes you know that your A is going to become a C for whatever test, right? And uh, because you're still dealing with humans and people get mad and they lash out how they can. And in this case, they've got the power of the pen and the grade for your midterm or whatever. And uh I'll I'll never forget, I I reflected and I sat there and I said, if I had been adequately and accurately assessed on how I did on those tests versus my GPA was like 0.6 higher if they had accurately assessed, but because I wasn't willing to sit there and accept that a professor was saying stuff that was right all the time. And the worst part was the number of times I'd literally sit there and stare at the textbook and it would disagree with the professor. I'd sit there and be like, I this disagrees. I'd call up mentors and coaches in the in the finance world or in the in in other parts of industry, and they'd sit there and say, ignore that professor, they have no idea what they're talking about. This is the reality. I what scares me is how do you um I mean, what when you're staring at the system as a whole is so prolific, and it's so like, hey, you must get your higher, you must get your undergraduate degree to be successful. Do you know how many people that I've met that are college higher or are not even college, they just went straight into a trade school, they're working HVAC, they're working carpentry, they're working something else. They make more than most of the people coming out of undergrad right now. And oh yeah, I don't think I know a guy five years out of high school, he's making$150,000,$160,000 as an HVAC technician, and he's got I mean, he's got some odd hours because he's got to work some some not a nine to five, but like he's talking about his brother who's got 15 years of experience and an undergraduate in finance and this and that, and he's his brother's making like 75,000 a year. And I'm like, I don't understand how people think that the American dream has ever been to go to college, it has never been to go to college.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

I'll I'll tell you how that how that was bought. It was sold to us by academia. When you're in elementary, junior high, I'm old, I'm it I know you're younger, so is middle school, high school. This is it. If you don't go to college, you will be under a bridge, more than likely, giving hand jobs or digging ditches. The choice is yours. So they get and then all these, I mean, and and that was when I was growing up. Now kids are like, oh my god, if I don't get they keep on raising the tuition and standards because you know, it's like, oh my gosh, I I need to get into my dream school. It's like okay, I was an entrepreneur, but before an entrepreneur and after, when I I came back to work, not one person has asked me for my transcripts, not one company, uh uh, nor uh what was what was it like, what was my favorite, and nobody's asked me for my master's, so that tells you right there. And you know, you could this is the one that really kicks people in the balls. You can go to friggin' Harvard, you could go to Rice, you could go to Duke, Vanderbilt, whatever. All that does not guarantee success. What guarantees success is your hustle, your drive, your leadership. Not because you can be a yes man, anybody can can get a 4.0. That's the biggest myth is that you know you're you're gonna become doogie houser, or you know, you're gonna be live living the high life and rubbing elbows with like Pat Riley and all these celebrities because you you you went to the right college. That's that's why I laugh when I'm looking at all these reels, or my kids like, oh, I just got deferred. Deferred, who gives a shit, man? They did you a favor. That school is probably expensive and far. Who cares? Did I do I love college? Yeah, man, because I went there and you know, uh I was brainwashed, but yeah, I I mean, now my my ex-wife, you know, yeah, my my oldest is at LSG, just like her dad. I mean, yes, it's amazing. She's a legacy, but but beyond that, oh, and my youngest is is getting ready to go to Harvard of the South Vanderbilt, but she drank the Kool-Aid, you know. Oh my gosh, if she if she went to some no-name school, you know, her her, you know, it's not the same as going to Vanderbilt. And it's like, yeah, because you I thought I drank the, you know, all of us can literally be in Guyana with Jim Jones. If Jim Jones said he was an academic advisor, or he he he was the person, you know, he he was the final person to determine whether what what dream school you got into, everybody be drinking the Kool-Aid. You know, and I that's that's the truth. But you're right, leadership to me is something not everybody's born right off. I mean, I I don't think MacArthur and Ulysses Grant and Patton and General Omar Bradley and all these, yeah, but they had to take their lumps. Yes, General Washington, you know, everybody's like under this assumption. Well, let me let let me see the the thing that takes the most courage is actually to believe that you're friggin' crazy enough. The reason why I realized I wasn't an entrepreneur and why books like these is because I never complied. I I I never wanted to make a professor happy or my guidance counselor happy in high school, college, master's degree. I never fit in the box, and then I I got into working for people that I'm like, holy smokes, man, I'm smarter than this guy. I mean, is he related to someone that he's my boss? But yeah, I I mean the the biggest and and I I love the book because it it's a wake-up call because you literally say what the biggest lie people believe about leadership, and it's literally right there in black and white. You're gonna laugh because you're gonna believe you're gonna you're gonna agree to this true. Most books don't have uh it's a lot of gray area, because that's how like gurus on happiness or making millions, you know, that's we'll we'll get we'll tell you vaguely how to do it. We won't give you an answer. That that's like saying, hey, I want to go to uh how do I drive to New York City? Well, well, you know, you get in your car, you drive for a couple days, and you make it. That's what a guru, but but your book literally, and that's that that's the biggest thing that that I loved about it is you know, you defined real leadership and the truth about leadership. Because you know what, everybody does believe. Well, maybe if I take the executive course at Harvard, oh, but it's not the non-credited, but is if it's credit, who cares, man? And you and you right? I mean, have you ever judged a person literally based on oh wow, this this guy knows the the the Yale fight song, man? This guy is this guy's gotta be a hard-hitting leader.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

You know, it's funny. The the things I have actually judged people on is when I know certain professors and I know my opinion of those professors, and I ask someone who has has been taught by that professor their their opinion, and I'll judge them based on whether uh they're positive or negative. If they're sitting there giving me glowing reviews about that professor, I'll sit there and be like, You clearly did not hear him.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Um my gosh, you're gonna laugh, man. The the guy that kept on winning professor of the year, and this was after I graduated from LSU, guy's friggin' dead, who cares? Real dick, Dr. Day, guy communications, mass com law. Like, who gives a shit about this class? But this guy thought he was like Hugh Hefner, and he would make sure people would take the class two or three times. A real inspiring guy, real Holland's opus here. And I'm literally passing the guy's class. I'm late because you know, like any other college back then, even, you know, 30,000 students, they only have like 100 parking spaces. So I'm running late. I was one minute late, 90 seconds late. He wouldn't let me take the exam. I'm like, you know, part he's like, that's not my problem. But yet we and everybody hated this guy, but you know, he kept on getting the accolades of professional. Professor of the year. I'm like, holy shit, this guy's professor of the year. I mean, who who gives out these who judges this? Dahmer and Gacy? The Menendez brothers, maybe?

Simplicity Beats Comforting Complexity

Perception Becomes A Business Problem

SPEAKER_02 22:12

You know, it's funny. When I think about like there, there's the impact that higher education has had on the overall industry and like leadership in general. But the other thing that I think is very important, and I I mentioned it a little bit in the book, there's two topics that I think are really valuable. One is the concept of simplicity. Um it's very comforting to have a very complex set of systems, processes, everything else. Simplicity is confronting. And the number of times I've been in a situation and someone presents something, it's very eloquent, it's very super like it's complex, it's complicated, it's it's and as a result, it's comforting. And the reality is like most of the time it's something simple. Like I'll use a simple example of like if you're gonna do packaging on a brand, sometimes just making sure your brand has one color set and it's bland and attracts the eye is way more important than like all the talk about like, oh, I need this pretty uh picture and this and that, and like, no, color works, you're fine, move on. Sometimes people overcomplicate things when it simple is sometimes the easiest answer, and it's just it's so confronting that it's difficult. And and when I when I think about all the lessons I've I've been taught in different in various leadership courses, that's one thing that like really stuck with me was they talk about how to manage complexity, how to manage this stuff, and and I I I challenge most of the leaders out there to think about like, how many things are you doing that really could just be done really simply? And you're doing something way complicated, way over the top, because it's it's comforting, it's what you're used to instead of saying, like, no, this is the easy answer, and and let's just go do it. Um the uh the other piece I think is is important to to think about as as uh um you think about how how this higher education type approach, the these like I'll say the the I've ivory tower syndrome has has created a situation where when you get into uh leadership, uh it's all about perception, not reality. And I don't know how this is something that like part of the thing I I really struggled with is and why I just didn't try to give frameworks on solving this, is because every situation you can break these things with different approaches and they can be radically different, they can be completely diametrically opposed and and you know going this way depending on the situation. Um but when I think about how do you how do you challenge people? I I I challenge a lot of folks to think about like how many times have they spent their time managing perception when reality is something different? I I just I don't I I I don't know how to, and maybe you have some thoughts on like how how how society has has created a situation where perception matters more than the numbers, than the reality, than the facts. I think it's because it's so emotionally tied to like emotions.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Emotions, perception is always someone's reality, and you can spend billions of dollars, hundreds of millions, or whatever, but a lot of times that that that's the hardest thing is to try to change perception or or try to change a company's direction after everybody already has a perceived notion, a perceived value of something. It per a perfect example would be like Carnival Cruise Lines. It it's it there's two different models that they they're running right now. The high-end one with weak cruise, 10 crew, 10-day cruise, go to Europe, whatever. But then with a lot of it also, but the biggest perception is that it's the cheap party model because they see all these reels of people getting into fights and whatnot. Now they want to try to back off of that re that perception. Man, that's gonna take billions of dollars, and that's gonna be a wall. Yeah, it's a publicly traded corporation. I wouldn't want to be invested there when when with my money tied up, we're like, yeah, well, you know what, we we want it and and it's a gamble. Because let's say, let's say they they can't turn it around, but but now you lost the guaranteed revenue that you had, and you're trying to bring back these new people by saying, No, it we're we're rebranding. Good luck with that, man. So, yeah, perception, man. Perception, if somebody doesn't like you, no matter what you can cure cancer. Uh, here, you're gonna laugh at at this story. It it's clueless guy. Yeah, I don't name names or anything. He didn't like me when I was married. My our went to my our kids went to a private school, same school, elementary, middle school, and then they chose the same high school. And he would always, when I was married, he would always tell my wife that he couldn't, it would get on his nerves that I would wear purple and gold. It's like, dude, uh newsflash, I did go to LSU. So I'm not wearing Laker gear, I'm wearing the stuff from my school. And I just stinkered because he would always wear Chicago crap, and we're in South Florida. I could have been a dick, and I'm like, well, you know, dude, you know, we're but we're not Clark Griswold. This isn't Chicago that we're not filming a John Hughes movie here. We're quit with the Chicago crap, but I never did. But once I got a divorce from my ex-wife or, you know, my wife, then the guy really went into super hate mode. I I knew better than to try to try to change if his perception was already there. But yet we always want, we always try to rack our brain to change perception. Sometimes it's best, like even a leader, not everybody not not everybody wants to be in the on this team. Uh let them go. Not everybody deserves to be in that lifeboat. I I know that's that's a harsh reality, but when it comes to leadership, man, sometimes you it's sometimes you have to to to move forward, you have to let go of those that that, yeah, they got you from point A to point B, but they're not gonna get you to point C, D, E, and F.

Humor As A Leadership Skill

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Yeah, I I I think the the piece that that really resonates with me in what you said is like there's times when perception is what you're managing, and like like the Carnival Cruise is an example, you're managing trying to improve and and manage people's emotions. That's a marketing effort. That is 100% your focus should be on managing perception. But when you're talking about a successful business internally and internal operations, which is the part that a lot of leaders spend their time doing, why are we dealing with this false narratives? Like you have to have the reason you have middle management and senior management uh is is to make sure you have levels of control, especially in these large organizations. But why do we have to have it where the middle management that's fighting to become senior management ends up having a system where they're fighting each other, they're doing it hidden, they're managing their politics and they're managing how they're perceived. And the senior leaders are just like getting whitewashed over it because it's easy. I mean, if you have uh a situation where you have someone firefighting problems within your company all the time, left, right, and center, they're spending 80, 80% of the time with you. You're ignoring the rest of your performers who who you're putting 20, 30% of your time in, and you probably have your highest performers in that 20, 30 percent. You don't spend the time looking at them because 80% of your time is on this firefighter. But remember that the people that don't have fires might be your best people because they don't have fires. They're balancing the near term and the long term, they're balancing that risk. They're looking at beyond just, hey, I got a fire in front of me and I'm gonna put out the tree. They're making sure that the organization is running really effectively. And I think the piece that that has always stuck with me as I've observed these large organizations has been the number of times we overlook the people that are really best because of any number of things. I don't, you know, my favorite is people can't accept that they have internal biases to different communication styles. They don't really, they're not introspective enough to really go out of their way to uh like you know, extroverts don't always get along with introverts, um, especially in leadership. And if you don't sit there and say, I have to shift my mindset to make sure I'm really good at doing a good assessment on that person to make sure that I'm getting the best people at the team, it what it it boggles my mind how ineffective and how much waste we spend because of this internal politicking, especially in large organizations. Um it's there's there's definitely times when perception is the only thing that matters because marketing is a great example where you're managing people's emotions all the time. I mean, that's that's 100% like where you should be spending. But when you're talking about why why do we have to have internal marketing when you're talking about a manager to a senior manager to a director to a vice president, you know, like these internal layers of leadership, why are we marketing into ourselves? Why are we creating a system and why do we perpetuate the system that does that? And I look at it's because we were trained to get 4.0s. And so you you you are trained to get your highest GPA, and you're learning the system to figure out how do you get that 4.0, how do you get that uh AA plus, and then you're fighting to get it instead of sitting there and saying, I'm gonna run this organization the best it should be and can be. And I'm gonna not worry about the fact that it might make me look bad at times. Um because it puts you in a vulnerable state. And when you look at the the I'll say there are two truths about leadership uh that that stick with me is one, a lot of leaders really fail to to constantly be introspective. And then the other piece is um when when we're looking at those those leaders um and what they're doing, are we really assessing um who the true leadership are, or are we just promoting the people that manage the perception and make it easy on me to assess them because they spend I sp I spend eight out of every 10 hours at work talking to them. So I I I don't know. Any thoughts on on that? It's a lot of contact there. I think that you know the the piece the piece that I think that is uh important for readers is like there's a lot of stuff that can really hit deep in in this book um and can really help put a mirror on what you're see what you see at work. It's not necessarily going to give you a framework to solve these problems. But the big thing I want people to also recognize is when you when you're being introspective, it's important to have a sense of humor. And there's a chapter in this book that I encourage you, my my uh four-year-old calls it a ripout book. Go ahead and take the rip the pages out. It's toilet paper, it's spare for you in case you run out. I mean, if you can't have fun while you're you're trying to internalize how how difficult leadership is, you know, it's just it's just not worth having fun, not worth doing it.

The Moments That Sparked The Book

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Now, I gotta ask you this, Drew, because what to me, I when it comes to leadership books or when it comes to management books, I have to ask this. Was there something that really defined you this holy shit moment that inspired you to sit down and write discover the truth about leadership?

SPEAKER_02 35:05

Yeah, so there were there are two two times that really got to me. One was uh very simple. I was in a meeting and it it was actually a meeting I was called to to kill the meeting. I was literally called, told, hey, this meeting's going on. I was like, why in the heck are we having this meeting? And I was called in by people to literally kill like an 80-person meeting, 40 people in the room, 40 people on a phone call. I was like, this is just ridiculous. The fact that we are have have created a system where I have to go in and kill meetings. Um, the second thing was was really, and it's in the story in there, halfway through my MBA, um, when I was listening to the stories of why people were what people thought about people with MBAs, and it was all this self-righteous stuff of they're really smart, they know how to run organizations. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, immediately look for their undergraduate degree. Because I assume they're hiding something weak, they're trying to cover it up. I it's just why why are you getting something like that if it you clearly didn't get the education to make yourself successful, or you're not getting the education to make yourself successful. So what are you hiding? Is it this is part of your educational path and this is just something that's augmenting your knowledge? Or is this something where it's like, no, I'm I'm hiding the fact that I got an undergraduate degree in history and I want to make money? And when I when I found out, like as we're going through the three the questions, the last question, why are you getting an MBA? That was the only time people were telling the truth. An accountant said his boss said the only way he's gonna get a promotion is with an MBA. I mean, go get an MBA then. I get it, like fine. Like your boss says that I mean it's a stupid thing for your boss to say that, but fine. You he wants to set that rule. That's that is his prerogative. Um, I still think it's stupid, but okay, fine. But it it really, that to me was the aha moment of like, man, this is not just a constant thing in in the uh that I'm I'm I'm constantly seeing this in the work environment, but I'm also seeing it in education, and I was like, you know, this is just it's a perpetuating system. The the educational system is creating a system that perpetuates and encourages this bad behavior in leadership, and it's why you see so many of these recurring themes in leadership, and it just stuck with me. And I was like, I I really want uh people to really question whether or not they they should get an MBA, whether they should get higher education, what are they really looking to do, and hopefully get it to the point where we stop having higher education supported by the federal government because man, the fact that it is only sub it is a subsidized industry and it is doing so much damage to the greater health of our business in America is just wrong.

SPEAKER_03 38:07

Uncle Sam.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

But you're you're speaking like something uh like you know, common sense-wise, instead of you know, the a lot of the stupid shit that it wastes money on government, that's why I laugh when people are like, Yeah, we need more government. I'm like, uh, have you checked out the DMV? Go go in there, but but but yeah, no, um it's crazy. You would think they would want to subsidize it, especially when we we love to beat our chest and say we're number one. But then, like when you you compare skills, and then when when these major corporations are outsourcing and hiring engineers from other countries and whatnot, it's like, well, I mean, you know, we we can go to a country concert and you know pull you pull up the flag and say we're number one, and we're number one, but you know that that's all pillow talk. The the the numbers say we're we're lagging behind and and everything, literally.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

So so there was another piece that that kind of of was an insightful thing in my undergraduate degree. When my undergrad was about 40,000 a year-ish. And uh someone had done an investigation and got the data as as far as where that money went. And what was really stuck with me was it cost the university less than$18,000 a year to run the university, every aspect of it, up, down, left, and right.$10,000 of that went to endowment. So I'm sorry, my undergraduate is getting nothing from me. They got four years of endowment funds out of my undergraduate tuition. You know what that other$12,000 was? Financial aid. So for me, getting stuck paying the bill myself, I paid for someone to go to that university for you know a year. And it's just you know what would have been better is if it had been an$18,000 a year tuition. And you know those people that needed that financial aid, they might have had an amount of loan when they got out of the university that they could pay off in a reasonable amount of time. But there's studies out there, and there's two studies that are that are uh really, really uh thorough on it, that indicate over 90% of all federal aid increase is tied to a tuition increase. So if federal aid, a one dollar is increased in the budget for for federal aid for universities, they can tie over 92 cents of that will go directly to tuition increase. Well, so then what are we doing with this federal support? Uh I'm you don't have to be political or not. This is this is not a red or blue conversation. This is just oh no, to your point, it's a common sense thing. This is a why are we? I mean, we talk about oh, we're gonna try to wipe out student debt. That's a political conversation. I'm not talking about student debt, I'm talking about stop the federal government from supporting what is not supported by the rest of the industry. Why do we have so many degrees that are not supported? And you got you go to McDonald's and you go to a lot of fast food joints and and just a lot of retail stores, you find out that these people have undergraduate degrees, and they're not managers, they're just undergraduate degrees as a roster.

SPEAKER_00 41:45

Yeah, the biggest the biggest lie we tell ourselves is jobs like that, or you know, back back in the day, oh this is this is gonna be you if you don't go to college. Bullshit. If you get an arts and science degree, or if you suck at interviewing and you have zero social skills, that's gonna be you asking, do you want it in a grande? And would you like a muffin with that? Because it's right, right though. We lie to kids and we we we try we indoctrinate them into believing that you will be in one of these inferior, inferior jobs if you don't go to college. But then if you really ask those people, they did go to college and they graduated. If kids knew knew that that was a true story, they wouldn't be crying about, oh my god, I just got I got my deferred. Oh no. Oh but but honey, you you only give a shit about what school you go to because you want to be Instagram famous, or you you you know your parents are vicariously living through you. And no, I I I don't donate uh to LSU, not academia. I I have my priorities straight now. When it comes to NIL and sports, a hundred percent, but I've I've I've literally never donated to for academia. I I I love this school to death, and not that they're gonna they've they've never supported me, they've never asked me, you know, how I'm I'm doing, but but yeah, uh most most schools you graduate and it's for an experience, man. I mean, you you're bet it it you're better off taking that$200,000, guys, if you're you're gonna go to Harvard or whatever, and just sinking it into the an ETF.

What College Was Actually Good For

SPEAKER_02 44:00

in in 20 years and then you'll be laughing uh yes but i went to harvard oh you must be a a multimillionaire that that's another that's another myth that believer we all bought that if you went to the right school there's no depression you you made like you know nirvana the and the the heavens open up and they shine a light on you and you're you're you make millions of dollars because you went to Harvard or you went to Penn or you went to wherever and and then that's a myth it's it's definitely interesting um how that can be something that uh so I one of my mentors is is very successful at community college and um community college he he he he tells me all the time about how much he had to downplay the the fact that he went to community college because he was in the industry with Harvard and Yale and Oxford and I'm gonna have to delete this comment. I know right and and and and you look back and and he's like the number of times now where these people come in and they start getting kind of arrogant and they start talking about this and that and he's just sitting there and he's just like I'm worth 10 of you F off. Like he's just like the why is this a conversation and it and it had nothing to do with was he smart the smartest person in the room. No absolutely not most of the time he was the dumbest person in the room. It's the hustle exactly what you said it's are you willing to constantly challenge are you willing to put in the time like when uh my kid asked me how asked me uh this weekend how how many jobs I have and I sat there and I had to count and I was like four and and he's just like what and I was like why do you ask he's like well because you're always working and I was like yep he's like absolutely because I I want to be successful and I want to be able to give you guys a better life but but it's it's crazy how people have been indoctrinated in this like higher education will give you a higher job which will give you a higher pay which it no that's not that's not the reality of the situation and and when you start questioning everything that's said to you you start realizing that that um the way to be successful is is a totally different route. It's it's finding the the edge that people are not saying in the room. Because they're saying one thing and then what is what's actually happening is where that value is. I I I it's it's funny I I I guess my question I I I'd ask you is like um I mean when when you look at your your time I mean you said you said that your experience was pretty had had a lot of opportunity from the value proposition for your education experience.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

What would your biggest advice be uh uh you know after kind of read it reading what I wrote about as well as just your your experience my experience well I was a social retard I was an introvert I joined a fraternity I I majored in um being the vice president of my chapter as well as being social director uh I learned how to sell uh which and all my all my techniques all my selling all how to talk to women how to talk to people how to communicate was from my um being Greek being in a fraternity uh uh lsu well my my minors in history so that was fun that was cool to to learn not nothing like I I had a photographic memory so it wasn't really learning it was re reading something surprise you can memorize that that's what grades that's how you get grades and then um like I said I I learned how to write at an eighth grade level how to communicate I mean heck there's a reason why most athletes are journalists or or go to mass com it's because yeah you sit there and and you pass I I I love the experience I wouldn't take it away and and everybody just keep in mind that's what I'm saying I mean don't it's all a myth you know I my I didn't my success had nothing to do with where I went to school I I I could have gotten well now um community colleges or a lot of them you can get four year degrees literally people you could save money by going there joining clubs joining organizations having fun with people it's the experience people can that went to the same college the same year might have hated it it's not because of the school it's because of you when you see people dropping out or transferring do we blame it's not the school's fault necessarily it's what you put into it just like life man that you know you hustle you grind I've never asked I what degree do you have or where now I might ask you who you cheer for on Saturday it's so just just because you know I went to LSU and you know we're fanatical about college football and about sports in general but you know I've I've never I I didn't marry my wife because she uh my ex-wife because she had an MBA uh I've that was never uh you you know I've I've dated women with or without degrees but the one thing that I noticed is when somebody that's uneducated and they really find out that you're educated they don't understand that you and I are having a normal conversation we're not using words with three syllables four syllables so I I don't need to hear words like nefarious and whatnot because that's not in your normal vocabulary we're not studying for the SAT so you know talk dumb it down my book was one syllable two syllables maybe three syllable once in a blue moon just to impress someone but yeah no man I I mean I'm I'm not the per I I don't think l su would would call me to to recruit people to go to college well yeah I uh uh I drank the Kool-Aid if it was LSU but could I be a guidance admissions counselor no because I couldn't sit there and kids like oh my god this is life or death for me man i i i think he would i'd be like wake the fuck up dude maybe this college isn't for you then what do you mean have you seen my sat did you look at my essay that I chat GPT'd and I have like six letters of recommendation from teachers that I kiss their ass please and and and I I joined every social organization so I need it and yeah and then believe it or not I that person I reject because I'd be like oh man what a pompous asshole this kid's just gonna graduate to be middle management of corporate america a real ass kisser now the person with the like the 2.0 scored like an 800 I'd be like I'd be like in risky business I'd be like you know Yale need Princeton needs a guy like Joel and they'd be like but Omar is he a leg did he donate did was he like Lori Laughlin or did did they donate money or what no man guys 2.0 but he's a stand up guy he's going I see the drive I see the hustle but that's how I've always operated and I I I just I'm we're riffing because we're we're like minded people you would think that you and I went to the same college or you know we're we're dorm we we stormed the dorms together or whatnot and it's well you might hate me since since my undergrad didn't have a football team well I I I just wanted to go to to two things one a place that would accept me so clearly the South and two just somewhere huge because you know as a social retard so I figured you know 34 35000 undergrads somebody was bound to talk to me and and and befriend me and and and and you full disclosure i i've said this to people um i've said this in other shows not my own uh the reason why i chose l su was i went to this place called walden books who's a precursor to Barnes and Noble I bought a book based on party schools and the number one party school was Louisiana State University Agricultural and Mechanical College plain and simple uh uh which I'm glad um I didn't choose number two number two was West Virginia and holy shit I couldn't imagine living in Morgantown yeah I I but I I think there's there's a lot to be said about when you when you're choosing university when you're choosing spend money there is I actually I was I was thinking about this as you were you're commenting about it and I was like you know one of the things that that the last few years has been eye-opening is the number of those big Ivy League universities that removed some of their systems that helped keep the bar high for them to get highly qualified highly educated students and because they removed those systems they had to implement um what's the um additional math courses to to bring their students up to standard in other words they were they were they were getting people that were coming out of high school without high school mathematics because they removed their systems and and one of the things that I think is important is you know that when when you're choosing university when you're choosing stuff it's okay to make a choice like I want this because of X, Y, and Z.

Make Decisions From Every Angle

SPEAKER_02 54:09

And that's that's a perfectly fine as long as you're going eyes open that that's the choice that's important. But when you look at what what higher education and and just in general a lot of a lot of systems in in in uh business have have become you remove a system like that and it's like you thought you were being smart but you removed a system that was foundational to the success of your organization it was foundational to getting smart people in and putting smart people next to each other and now you're you're staring at like why is your system broken? Well you didn't understand your value proposition your value proposition at these Ivy League schools was bringing the smartest people in the world together. That's been your value proposition and you decided to remove some of those systems some of those barriers um in the interest of whatever whatever reason and now you've brought in a totally different situation and you have to put remedial mathematics on you on your uh training now for those those places blows my mind because what when you look at like what does that create in leaders what's the the thing and and what what's the most important thing I want people to take away after they read my book is one not to take yourself so seriously two really try to be constantly introspective but uh and third um as you're you're looking at this you really have to and there's there's a phrase that um stuck with me um when I was uh uh from uh being mentored by a go figure a Jesuit priest um uh it's it's to give rise to mind while abiding nowhere it's recognizing that you are in a position when you're making a decision when you're looking at something but take yourself out of that position and try to put yourself 90 degrees to the side and look at it and then take yourself and put it yourself 180 degrees and look at it and then go to 270 degrees and look at it and look at it holistically and then say if you're still okay with that decision by all means go do it but don't make a decision purely because you're in that myopic view think about it from that holistic view. I have absolute respect for the accountant that said my boss said the only way I'm gonna get a promotion is by getting an MBA I'm not questioning his his reason for getting an MBA he should have gotten an MBA.

If Leadership Worked It Would Be Honest

SPEAKER_00 56:20

He's a sharpshooter to me man yeah because he was honest but when you took it take it from one step out you sit there and say wow the system he is in is fucked up and broken oh that that that that's that yes that that uh we're being surface level though true like let's not be that that you went deep in the soul that that that's the honest truth but you have to admit because people are so full of shit they're gonna give the Miss America fucking answer on why they they got an MBA that's why I said I'm surface level on that man that's a straight shooter that guy's honest you know the more than likely he's gonna give some bullshit answer the same answer that he gave on why he needs to go to the school on his essay and that he wants to cure cancer and and that he's the Mother Teresa and Gandhi inspired him and all this bullshit man because everybody we're so used to listening to bullshit that people can't be honest man and that's why if somebody says that that's why I like the the question oh where do you see yourself five years from now that the bullshit and oh oh I I'm oh here of course no man or what what what's the what's net one negative attribute about yourself whoa I'm a perfectionist and I don't I won't leave till the job gets get out shut the fuck up man that's why I I for years I would use the bullshit questions and then afterwards you learn about somebody just with a simple conversation absolutely absolutely and the reason why this is more I I love your book and the way we're talking about this is because your book is like me is like you we don't fucking mince words man it it's it's not fluff it's it's it's not some where's the safe place let let me lie to you and it's not regurgitated it if I wanted regurgitated stuff with the same story over and over I love John Maxwell man and I'm slow it took me like 10 books to realize it's the same fucking book same stories literally everything the small talk's the same man change it up brother I mean yeah it took me 10 books to realize that and I love you but but people people like that people just don't want the answers they just want to I accomplished something yeah the truth of the matter is they're good you know most people would look at look at the book and buy it just so they can say hey you know what I read about the truth about leadership no one taught you maybe I can print out a certificate somewhere that that that's that's that's the beauty too gurus know people are so fucking stupid you know you you do whatever bullshit and go to office max and print out holy smokes man are are are we that much are are we that broken we're in a culture where everyone's gotta win and of course man the reality is of course not everyone wins and and and it does and it does bother me when I when I sit at and to your point you read 10 books and it's the exact same book phrased 10 different ways with the exact same stories in like slight tweaks just go straight to the point sometimes I've been I've been told sometimes going through the process is better than jumping to the answer and I was like I'm not here to educate people I I'm here to you're not a professor dude yeah I'm the tech if I'm teaching a class on right you were gonna do it for a semester where you're gonna sell the same shit over and over and then next year you'll you'll put like two more sentences in so it's you know the other ones I I love that about it. It's it's obsolete why oh this is the new version what's new about it oh there's new material what one new chapter and they rephrase 16 paragraphs exactly but you know man that the the academia could go on indefinite just you know just rewrite this for the 200th time for the 200th semester in a row make it enough to get it so you pass through that it's a new new uh volume so I can sell a new volume absolutely man I've got a uh this this is one of my my my favorite just because you know there's we we went through the no bullshit approach so I there's there's two things one I can go on and on but I know people you tune out after an hour because God forbid there's more important things like TikTok or scrolling and cyber stalking your ex so two two closing questions what if leadership actually did work the way you describe how would it look honest one word honest I I think it's really hard to think through anything but being when you look at how many organizations it's not about being honest it's about presenting a story and and there's times when you present a story because you're trying to tell the truthful picture but the number of times where it's hiding something that you don't want to show I I think if if people approached it you'd get a lot more honesty in conversation and I think the other piece is you'd find out how much BS you have in an organization.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

Amen man amen brother straight to the point like your book and last but not least where do people go to buy discover the truth about leadership and more importantly how do they follow you so they can just follow you man well I'm I'm on Instagram drew dot uh m.kristensen and uh any any major retailer so Amazon of course and Barnes and Noble you name it I'm I'm available uh it's uh I recommend the paperbook uh paperback copy and I definitely encourage you to follow chapter two's instructions and rip out a couple pages because again there's a lot of stuff in there that that can really flip a mirror and and if you don't take it seriously it's a little bit more fun also remind people that this book like lsu is a two drink minimum two drink dude come on man that's not more than that man we're the two drinks is like on a Tuesday like like like today dude after class brother you that I wasn't expecting thank you for everything thank you for the opportunity thank you for the book thank you for giving me an hour of your time just so we can just be honest man it it's so refreshing i i want i wish nothing but the best this book is so honest I'm gonna buy two copies for my daughters because they need honesty all right brother I appreciate luck with everything man all right thanks a lot take care