What If It Did Work?
What If It Did Work?
The Neuroscience Of Change For Leaders
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Change sounds exciting until you’re the one who has to do it. When leaders announce a new direction, most teams don’t hear a strategy deck, they hear a threat to safety, competence, and stability. We sit down with Travis Halher, a change and transformation leader with a neuroscience background and the author of Rethink Resistance, to explain what’s really happening in the brain when people push back and why “resistance isn’t rebellion, it’s biology.”
We dig into the uncomfortable truth behind modern change management: the famous stat that roughly 70% of transformations fail to reach the desired outcome has barely moved in decades. Travis breaks down how leaders often misread the moment, protect their ego, and accidentally intensify fear through secrecy, oversimplified messaging, or authoritarian pressure. We talk about building trust during uncertainty, why transparency usually reduces risk, and how negative bias shapes decision making at work even for high performers.
Then we turn to the next wave: AI transformation. Adoption isn’t just about training and tools when people suspect the tool could replace them. We explore how to implement AI without draining the human element from your culture and why letting ChatGPT “end” a healthy team debate can destroy alignment. If you lead a team, run a small business, or just feel stuck, you’ll leave with practical questions you can use immediately.
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Cold Open And Inner Resistance
SPEAKER_00I never told no one that my whole life I've been holding back every time I load my gun up. So I can do what it starts. I hear a voice like you think you are making it.
SPEAKER_02All right, everybody, another day, another dollar, another one of my favorite episodes of my favorite podcast because I'm biased. What if it did work?
Why Change Triggers Pushback
SPEAKER_02Welcome back to What If It Did Work. Today we're diving into one of the biggest challenges facing leaders, entrepreneurs, organizations, the big word change. Why do so many people resist change even when they know it's necessary? Is resistance really about attitude, stubbornness, or lack of motivation? Or is there something deeper happening inside the human brain? Our guest today has spent nearly two decades helping companies navigate transformation. He's led change initiatives at some of the world's most recognized organizations, studied neuropsychology at Harvard, Harvard, conducted EEG research in Denmark, now serves as a senior director of global strategy and transformation at Salesforce. He's also the author of the upcoming book, Rethink Resistance, where he challenges conventional wisdom and reveals why resistance isn't rebellion, it's biology. Please welcome Travis Haler. How's it going, Travis? Hey, I'm good. Omar, how are you? I'm doing great, brother. And you know what? I have to say, reading your book and then meeting you and all, your book is refreshing because I've been pound, I've been telling people left and right, it's just biology. And and people, I guess it's because they hear gurus, because that's how they get paid, you know. Oh, you know, for only $9.99, you know, a free weekend, which somehow at after after that comes out to ten thousand dollars, you know, slap a couple of posters up on the wall, you know, let's let's start screaming. And then, you know, reality after it hits the bank account,
Comfort Zones In Work And Life
SPEAKER_02nothing happens, nothing changes. So now here it it it it's due to the fact that our DNA, any I mean, we were always concerned about that sabretooth or that woolly mammoth that was coming to get, is correct?
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah, yeah. No, it's uh it's biological, it's the way that we, you know, we were designed. Um, and so I think that's that's one of the the big the big pieces with the work that I've done is helping leaders, helping people understand that, you know, one, give yourself a little bit of a break. We're not designed to change, you know, on a dime, and our world is very fast and moves very fast. And uh, and the other side is once you kind of understand the mechanisms almost like anything, you can understand how to work with it, and uh just recognizing that that is a natural process that happens within us is this resistance to change, it's really important.
SPEAKER_02Well, people too beep themselves up just because it's social media and everybody just thinks, you know, hey, I decided to do this, but your whole body is resisting it. Your brain's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is uncomfortable here. We want the same thing, we want predictability. We we don't want to get out of our comfort zone. And and that's even when you hear somebody saying, Yeah, I was married to that person for 30 years. Oh my gosh, you must you guys were madly in love. No, I hated that person, I just couldn't leave because you know, but why? Were you guys married in a foreign country and all that? No, it I and I've heard this recently too. You know what? I was miserable, but at least I had a roof over my head, or I was miserable. I mean, same thing with a job, same thing with a career. Oh, you you're very loyal, and it's like, uh no, I at least I knew I had a guaranteed paycheck. And it's like, well, congratulations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I'm I'm actually I'm married to a recruiter, and uh, and it's interesting. Uh, they were he was just sharing with me about their their numbers and the way that they track is through differences in, you know, people that are applying or people that are referred or people that they source and find themselves. And he was like, It's interesting this year, we're so far up in source hires. And I said, Do you think it's because of the market and the economy right now and kind of what's happening? People aren't selecting to leave, but when you go to them and you say, Hey, I have an opportunity that I think you're a great fit for, they're opting in because they're like, Yes, I actually would like to make a move, but I'm not going to move from my comfort right now because of just the the the economy, the way things are are moving right now. Um, and it was an interesting conversation thinking about like the differences and how people are even showing up today in the job market.
SPEAKER_02Well, sometimes AI is making us have to find and pivot because I think just a couple days ago, Zuckerberg Facebook laid off 8,000 employees because of
Layoffs And Forced Reinvention
SPEAKER_02AI. Now, those people they they were they thought they had comfort, stocks have been decent for the past 10 years or so. Growing, there's growth, and you know, they now they have to do the change. Because usually that's that's what happens is there's only change when I mean just the simple fact that the pain of of changing outweighs if I either I'm stuck here, but uh but this is brutal, I can't take it anymore, or some someone outside, like getting that pink slip, getting uh, well, here's your severance package, take care. And that's when you you're forced to change.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I was I was at Google um as they went through a lot of the the laying off and restructuring that they did back in 2023. It's amazing how talking to some of the individuals, and and this isn't everyone, but some individuals saying it was it was probably a blessing for me because I actually got to go and challenge myself on what do I want to do? What how do I want to move forward? Do I want to go to another company? Do I want to start my own company? I actually know three people who started their own companies that are doing extremely well. Uh, one of which sold to uh they were an AI startup and they sold recently and did a did an exit. Um, and uh, you know, it's it's amazing some of the things that turn into opportunities that that maybe don't look like opportunity on the front face.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. Or in my case, I became an entrepreneur for 20 years because I kept on like it every place I worked was like similar to office space, the movie, where it was like, oh my gosh, are you for real? And and the pain of just getting those bosses over and over, because I never recalled in college. I mean, I'm I'm an arts and science guy, two degrees in communications. I was never thinking, hey, you know what? Because you know, academia go through, well, you're gonna have to work for some really amazing companies to quote unquote on the amazing part. And and that's what got me that.
Why Transformations Miss The Mark
SPEAKER_02And another thing though that I I found fascinating, literally in the book here, 70%. Now I don't want Anthony Robbins, I don't want Grant Cardone, Zig Ziggler be rolling in his grave. Because Zig Ziggler, all you need to do is buy my buy my book. I'm I'm just a guy from Yazoo, Mississippi.
SPEAKER_01You do a really good southern accent. I'm impressed.
SPEAKER_02Even though I'm I'm from Miami, I lived in and I went to school at LSU, so I know the southern action. Oh, you got it. I was gonna say you nailed it. Yeah, and and I've I've heard uh when he was alive, and then well, he posts more being dead for like the past 20 years than he he ever did alive. His social media presence is spot on. I'm like, holy smokes, thing. I knew I knew you're a religious man, but I I mean it you you know Jesus came back three days, you you came back 20 years later. Is it true though? 70% of transformations fail.
SPEAKER_01That has been the number. What's interesting, that has been the number for like 20 plus years. Um, and it really hasn't moved. And I think what's important about that number is is it's it's 70% of transformations fail to reach their desired outcome. So it doesn't mean that they like fail outright. And I think a lot of people are like, oh wow, so we're just wasting money on everything. It just means that they didn't make it to what they were hoping to achieve with the transformation, whether it fell short on ROI or it fell short on what they could actually implement. But yeah, 70%. And and you know, McKinsey, Bain, all the all the big players have been talking about that number for decades, and uh and that's a problem. Um, it's it's not a it's not a great uh track record for transformative change.
SPEAKER_02Well, 30 success only works really in baseball. You you get into the hall of fame that way. But could you imagine? And hey, why should we hire you? You know what? 30 of the time I I will hit our short-term, mid-term, and our overall goals. Yeah, there's 70% screw it, don't worry about it.
SPEAKER_01I th I think the the analogy I used in the book was if we took that in in people learning to ride bikes, we'd have a lot of adults using uh training wheels, right?
SPEAKER_02Like exactly, exactly. Well, that's oh, it's just like riding a bike. Says who with like, you know, oh, it's just muscle memory. That that that that's usually the the you're you're gonna laugh. That's the person that either has beer muscles and they're like, oh, I can do that, or they have they haven't worked out like in 30 years, and like, oh, I'm gonna show all these young kids how I'm gonna go to the gym and show them how it's done. Sort of
Travis’s Neuroscience Origin Story
SPEAKER_02like that. So, Travis, what first sparked your fascination with neuroscience and human behavior?
SPEAKER_01I have always been interested in humans and the way that they work and operate, and the brain was always very fascinating to me. Um, even as a kid, I I was I I think you know, I I've always been the person that people would come to and just for whatever reason would share everything with um in terms of what was happening in life, what they're going through. And I I always found a great, a great honor in that, but also a fascination in what makes people tick. And so I went to school um at college thinking that I wanted to go into psychology. And through that process, I found kind of neuroscience and neurology as an area. And and when I was living in Denmark, I did um EEG research at a lab in Denmark, and that was really the first time that I had been exposed to how the brain and tasks correlate. I'd always known like your brain, it controls everything, right? But like I actually got to watch live on screens what was happening in the different areas of the brain when people were going through tasks and in different scenarios. Not to not to get too deep into what we were researching, but it was really around addiction. And so it was about people who were um nicotine dependent, and they would come in and they would either be in a craving state or having just um had a cigarette. And um, we would really measure how their brain responded differently to seemingly simple tests, and um, and so that was really the first time that I saw like, okay, the environment, the situation has a real impact on how people work. And so I I I always had that fascination. And I went back, um went back to the US and I said, okay, what do I do now? And my 22-year-old brain said, Well, I don't really want to be a researcher necessarily, and I don't really want to be a psychologist, I just have an interest in that. Um, and everything's finite and black and white when you're 22 years old, and you're like, So I was like, Well, I'm gonna go into business. So I got an MBA and I I went and uh and started working in the corporate world, and uh from there those worlds started to collide. Every time I'd walk into um companies and we were helping to do transformation, you know, I would watch how other people were thinking about it, and then how I was thinking about it was always very different. And I was going towards and asking the questions about the resistance, whereas other people were trying to fight against it, and I was trying to lean into it and say, what's it telling me? What like why do you feel that way? Like, help me understand. Um, and that really sparked this idea that if we understand neurology, biology, psychology of people and how they move through change, it's a differentiator for us as leaders of transformative change. And so I went back to school specifically for neuroscience and data psychology with that hypothesis and came out with the six barriers and uh and ways to respond to those barriers as a leader as you go through transformations and lead people through transformation.
SPEAKER_02Impressive. And you know, the world didn't need any more researchers. We got to the academia and definitely psychologists. I uh I I mean I I think every undecided person that that's still undecided's like, oh, I'll just be a psychologist. And you know, the the world needs more more more therapists or marriage counselors, like like you know, we need a hole in the head. Usually, usually those two are like, uh, but before you know, I I got divorced. I'm like, okay, so are you really good? Like, oh, I've been doing this for years. And you know, I do my own, I guess, uh probing being a former journalist. I'm like, so how many times have you been married? Oh, she's like, Oh, I've been married three times.
SPEAKER_01I felt like saying, Whoa, um, if you're so good at this, but I did track record might not be a chance to do that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the track record record there says the third time's a charm. Hopefully, hopefully she's not on four or five, but but she's she's definitely doing a great job. But also just what you describe that I mean think about it. What people don't understand is if if if you understand humans and you don't come from a place of judgment, because that's the number one thing that just closes off everybody. Usually when I I somebody needs help because they can't sell or anything they can't get it, well, selling communication. Oh, everybody thinks I'm a jerk, I can't get a date, I can't do this, I can't do that. It's because I they come from a place of judgment, they're closed off, and literally they're not trying to understand the other person's world. What everything in your book you don't have you don't have to be in the Everybody thinks, oh, a leader is like Napoleon, or a leader is like the president, Donald Trump, or you know, whoever the prime minister is in England these days. And it's not that people don't understand we are all leaders. You you're a leader of your own household. You're a solopreneur if you live by yourself, but you still have to lead, you're still I'm Omar Madrano Inc. So is everybody else. And this book, and and when you start understanding how you know, it's not all about let let's go to Office Max or Office Depot, whichever one's still open, buy the poster with the guys rowing teamwork, and throw that up in the break room and go, oh man, you know, employee morale and productivity is gonna go up because we've got that, and we and we've got the eagle flying over the canyon, and that's on leadership with some can quote from like either Zig Ziggler or Anthony Robbins or anything, and go, yes, and that's usually how people well, I don't call those leaders, I call I call those bosses, and then they're like wondering why there's a revolving door, why sales are flat while customer service is crap instead of just literally I I mean I I love the book, and and let me tell you, thank you, yeah. Uh I I would tell everybody and anybody we're all leaders, we're all in sales.
Turning Research Into A Field Guide
SPEAKER_02It's something we're overall though, what did inspire you to actually write Rethink Resistance? Is there some some defining aha like Charles Dickens Uncle Ghost of Christmas future visited you or anything like that?
SPEAKER_01I I would love to say it came to me in a dream one night and I had to follow it. No, it's uh for me what it came down to. So I think there's there's kind of two ways that books come into existence. One is you have the idea and you write it down and you think it could be something, and the other one is almost a scalability piece where you think that or you've found that the idea has legs and you want to share it. And um, for me, it was the latter. So I had done this research. Um, I had this hypothesis. I actually got asked to go to this tiny conference in Toronto during the middle of the winter. There's like 30 people there.
SPEAKER_02It was like the worst summer where it's decent weather and campaign.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, no, no. It was, it was, it was, it was very, very cold. And uh and I was like, I, you know what, I'm gonna talk on it. And and it was because I knew someone who knew the research I was doing there, like, I think it'd be really interesting. And so I went and I spoke and and I unveiled these six barriers and talked about this, the the ways to overcome them as a leader. And um, I left there with, I don't even know, out of the 30 people, 80% were like, can we have a longer conversation about this? And that kind of launched into 150 global events, 25,000 leaders who have heard this kind of talk. And every single time I get on a stage or I work with an organization or a leader, I can see the difference it makes when they understand what's happening in their people as they go through change. And so for me, it was I want leaders to have this as a as a part of their toolkit as a leader, because quite frankly, we do very little for leaders in terms of preparing them to be a leader. We usually go off of skills, not capabilities, meaning you were once a really great seller and you knew how to hit your quotas, so we're gonna make you a leader. And it's like that doesn't make you a leader, that that means you can train someone else to do it, right?
SPEAKER_02So it's the worst thing, though, if you think about it. You take your your best sales guy, doesn't mean he knows how to teach, and and every organization pretty much does this. Oh, you're the sales leader, yeah. I I had XXX numbers. Oh man, that's amazing. But he doesn't know he can't relate to his staff because yeah, all he knows how to do is sell, he can turn it on and off, and then when you can't hit those numbers, one you just took your your your best sales guy, you gave him a promotion. Now he's not doing the one thing he's amazing at, and he's not a leader, and now he just says sell. And it's it's like even in sports or sports analogy, your greatest team managers, and all of them were never great athletes. The great athletes always fail because the great athlete always felt like hey, you all just do, like I did. Well, usually the bench warmer or or the analytical guy that knows the surroundings. That's the person. But yes, thank you for saying that. Because every time I see that, or every time, like even in Wall Street, they're like, Yeah, we just be because he was doing so great at you know, at this one position, we decided to, and it's like, well, you you know you're you're cannibalizing yourself because right now, you know, last I checked, um even in academia, they'll say sales is the number one force in any it's the lifeline of any company. And and you just cut your supply, your your gr your best to weaken that aspect in the hopes of he'll just elevate everybody just by yeah, presence alone, right?
SPEAKER_01She sheer proximity, right?
SPEAKER_02Exactly, because he's so great. We're all we're all gonna be like, well, just soak it in. But thank you. That now we we we get to hear your rah-rah speech uh on during the weekly meeting. Uh and whatever you tell us about short our short term numbers, thank you. Now I I will sell without even any training or any leadership aspect. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah. So I mean, uh, leaders don't have oftentimes the toolkit of Of capabilities around leadership. And so really the book was designed to provide them a tool, something that they can use to understand their people, something they can use when you know they're going through transformations and they need to help their teams through it to one, see the person that's standing in front of them on their team, but two, to also have something to fall back on to say, okay, you know what? I recognize that this barrier is probably the thing that Omar is dealing with today. Um, how do I address that? How do I help them? And this book being kind of a bit of a field guide, you can flip to the chapter on that barrier and how to respond to it. And it gives actual real life scenarios and ways that you can actually engage with that person and help them through that barrier, as well as um, I wanted to make sure this was not only usable, but also grounded in like real life. So there's um there's actual case studies in every single one of those chapter pairings that talk about a company that actually used this as a way of of kind of turning around a transformation or designing a transformation that was successful. Um so you know, that was really the the whole purpose of the book. And I think um, I think it's it's something that I would I would love to to hear more leaders utilize in their day-to-day. But you know, similar to what you talked about around the posters and the, you know, the Tony Robbins, uh, you know, motivational speakers, I also didn't want to become that person either, where the only value I bring is in the 90 minutes that I'm on a stage in front of people. I wanted it to be something that people could be like, that was really interesting. I want to dig in more. And you know, if my stage talk is the 101, the book is the 201, 301 that people can actually utilize and keep take with them as a true guide of how to do this day in and day out.
SPEAKER_02But not only utilize, like what you said, you have relative information. A lot of times, too, a lot of these books, it's based on a parable. And it's like it congratulations, you know, there's symbolism. We're oh hopefully, you know, we we hit all the departments. We've got the English lit, the creative writing, and we've got the business. Congratulations. But but and I get it, I mean, you know, I've I've written too, you know, I've gotten arts and science degrees too, but it's like when you want a book on leadership, on success, give me the facts. It's like if I go to my oncologist, I don't want him to tell me the story of a of a man that's on a bus, or you, you know, these these parables, and it's like, yes, you know, we we we've been there, done that. Give me the facts, give me what I need to know. And and that that's what I loved about yours. Pardon my French, there's no foreplay. Yeah, you know, you know, there wasn't like all this fluff, uh and there was no vagueness because the gurus and all that, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be just like him. And you read it, and it's stories, and it's a lot of attaboys, and you're like, Does this mean I need to see this guy live, or do I need to buy a program? Or and then you know, it's like multi-level marketing. You you keep on going, uh or or you know, like you know, one day I'm doing a clearing, and then you know, maybe I'll uh I'll go up to that special seventh level or whatever, and it's like, yes, that that's yours is like okay, it to me, it's like all those good. I've never read it because of the the title, the idiot's guide, the idiot's guide to success, idiot's guide to changing a tire to tying a tie to the dressing correct and all it's just that because you know, in a world that we have there's just so much information, people are drowning in it, or they're too busy using tools for other goofy stuff like AI. Well, Travis, how about if you and I, instead of having this conversation, we just use AI and we start doing action figures? And I know July 4th is coming up. How about if we do some a couple cool caricatures of us with firework displays and and screw it, even though our company's flat, or you know, I'm hating my boss, and I'm you know, my marriage is on the rocks. Hey, you know what? This is awesome. Here, why don't you do yourself as a caricature next? So, yes, that's that's the world we live in. Is is that if someone would have told me, um I'm a little older. Well, I'm a lot older than you. I'm Gen X. If somebody would have told me I I wouldn't have to go do the Dewey Decimal system, I didn't have to microfish it, or if there was a book on leadership, I would have to call it some number. If I rush shipped it, I would get it in 30 days and hope that my company wasn't under. You're laughing. That's that's how it was back then. Information, man. And as a kid, it was like the encyclopedia, and it was a door-to-door sales guy, and you know, my mom's like thinking she's gonna help me out. And you know, instead of Encyclopedia Britannica, they don't send you A through Z, they'll just send you like the random M, like thank you. And then the next next month is like T, and then it's like back to A with like nothing like that. And then you're like, by by the time you get the A through the Z, not only was it outdated information, now this stuff is like super outdated. So that that's why I mean people can't, people they don't like change, but they sure love excuses. That this one, you're leading the horse to you, you're like Moses, you're leading people to the promised land without having them to walk 40 years, 17 miles. So that that's what I love about it.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate that. I appreciate that a lot. I I said, you know, and I I think I wrote this in the book too, or at least I thought it was right writing the book. Uh, it was I, you know, we don't need another framework, we don't need another acronym. What we need is true, like, what does this look like in the field? How does this actually work? And I joked with my uh my writing coach early on. I said, I really just wanted to feel like if you had me a bottle of wine and a couple glasses, this is the conversation that we would have about what leadership looks like and how to lead change. Exactly. So exactly.
SPEAKER_02Could you imagine with your wife? You're like, you're trying to ask her out on a date on a second date, you've already gone on the first, and instead of asking you acronym of like love or date, the D stands for direction. Do you know how many acronyms can you imagine by by the time from you were born till now, it just just if you had to retain every acronym? Uh it and it's crazy, but and and and also it's a book with the answers. Usually, what people do with leadership books is they beat around the bush, and then they'll be like, oh, I'm gonna not that John Maxwell has done this in his last 40 books on leadership, just rearrange the chapters and rearrange the stories. I I I mean, literally, I could be his ghostwriter for his next book because uh, yes, I'm an arts and science guy, and I'm also a little slow. So it took me about like 12 books to realize I think at the 12th book that I was like, oh, I know I yes, yes, I know all these stories. That's because and you're laughing because you've read, I'm sure you've read a couple, and it it's like it's like being on the Titanic and it's thinking, and they're just rearranging like that that same, they're just rearranging the chairs, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But the next book, the next book, my my favorite is the is the book that gets released as a new edition of the book, and the only thing that gets added is like they did like illustrations or something, and I'm like two pages or three.
SPEAKER_02I've I've fallen for that too, right? Like, you know, the Stephen Cubby's new, and it's like, isn't he dead? No, yes, but but this is the new edition, you know, the things have changed for for success in 30 from 30 years ago. So that this is the new edition. So yeah, it took me like I said, I I I I can read these things, and also I was a student of like I would implement stuff and I would find success, but I'd be like, you know, I think nirvana, I think God would shine down from me if I read and implemented one more book on leadership, or one one more book on happiness, one more book on anything, and then it was finally like you mean happiness?
SPEAKER_03I just decide that and or or the best is yeah, we're all leaders. Just lead.
SPEAKER_02You know, if I wanted to be a professor, but I kept on telling you, yeah, you know, I'm just waiting for the right opportunity because you know, I want to have tenure, uh, I I want to have like people fighting over me, and but have you taught? No. Uh at all. No, but I'm I'm you know, I'm I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. And and that's how it it's like in order in order to in order to ride that bike with training wheels, at least you have to get on the bike.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's so true.
SPEAKER_02And to be a leader, yes, you're you're gonna make mistakes 70 70% of the time, possibly. Maybe even more, but you have to have skin in the game.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's like you telling your wife and you telling everybody, I'm gonna write a book. It's gonna be great. I have a coach, I've got everything, I've got all these ideas, and we keep waiting and we keep waiting. But you're like, yes, I'm an author. The moment the book was released, the even before that, the moment there was a finished product, you're an author. You know, you have to do in order to be. But yes, your your book is like to me, read it, start doing stuff, read it again. Because yeah, if if it's like if you want to go west to LA all the way east, Miami, we wind up in Chicago. Well, it's west of here. Is that a success? No, but we learned that we were West. And that's a that's how you know at least start implementing and and also though, you know, check out your results, man. I I know a lot of times these days it it's we don't want to be result-based, but tell that to a boss or a leader, or tell that, because you know, we we keep on training and we keep on teaching people as long as you know every everybody's happy. Well, results makes everybody happy. I I've never I've never worked for I I could have worked for an amazing boss, but if I if I'm never hit the target and he could lead me like if he was Moses, he could lead me like he was friggin' Bear Bryant or any amazing leader, coach, it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. No, no, it's not true.
What Your Brain Hears In Change
SPEAKER_02What happens though in the brain when someone hears the words we're making some changes?
SPEAKER_01Isn't that the question? Yeah, um I mean a lot happens, honestly. But really what I think people need to if people really need to take a step back. And I think that's that's the the whole point of the book is a lot of it is is taking a step back and looking at what is actually happening. And and for me, you know, when I talk to people about like, well, you know, why is it important? Well, it's because if we take a step back and think about what our brain was actually designed to do and and through through evolution was was created, you know, to do, it can do a lot, right? Like you and I having this great conversation right now, like it's incredible that we can have this conversation, but the essence of the reason it exists is in order to keep us alive and to keep us safe and to ensure that we continue to thrive, right? That's its purpose, and so when the things that keep it safe is usually the things that have worked to stay safe in the past. So it's all about habits, it's all about repetition, it's all about safety and and um understanding exactly what you're up against. It's all about understanding your environment, being able to look around you and say, I know exactly what that means, what that means, and what that means. It's being with a group of people that you trust, you know, and you're included in. Those are all things that create safety for us as a species, as a person. Change flies in the face of all of that. It's a threat to safety. And so our brain naturally wants to maintain that safety. And and that's that's really the core of what happens when you're sitting at your company and you're doing well, good performance, you're meeting your numbers, you've got, you know, a routine down that you know you could do day in and day out, everything's working, you feel great. And then someone tells you that you have to change, that's a threat to everything that creates safety for you. And so, you know, I and I I targeted this towards leaders primarily for two reasons. One, I think leaders have the largest impact on the most number of people and day in and day out that that you can find, right? They usually have the scale and they always have the most people that report to them. And if they can make this change, it impacts the most number of people. But the other reason is because there is ego in leadership, and we hate talking about that because ego for whatever reason is is seen as a bad thing. But to be a leader, you have to have ego. It's it's a non-negotiable part. There is confidence and trust in yourself and belief in your abilities, foundations of ego. Now, you can take it too far, we could have that conversation too, but it requires some form of ego. And so when a leader steps into the limelight and says, All right, I'm ready to announce this big change, they go in thinking that they're gonna sell everyone on this amazing thing that we're changing, and they expect the standing ovation, they expect the applause and the cheering, and it never happens, right? And so, what ends up happening in those moments is that leaders, it's very threatening to their ego and to their leadership when they don't have people jump up and down about a change. And so what ends up happening is they do some really interesting things. They start to question. They're like, Well, is it me? Is it the idea? Do they not believe in me? Do they not trust me? Am I an imposter and I'm not really a great leader? And then they protect themselves by doing things like becoming an authoritarian, where they're like, you will do it. There is no, there is no if, there's no and there's no question, you will do this, or you I will fire you. And then there's the side of, well, you have a choice, either join us or leave us. Or the third is that they try to make it easy and they're like, This is so simple, it simplifies everything you should want it, and that just pushes harder against people who actually were not thinking logically about what it is that you were actually presenting, they were only concerned about their safety. So you're so far from their logical brain, and whether or not the change makes sense and whether or not they think it's a good thing, you're still sitting in, they just heard threat, threat, threat, and they don't know what to do about it. So it really has nothing to do with the leader about their leadership at all. It has everything to do with the natural reaction that the brain has to change. And I think that's a freeing statement for leaders to lean into true leadership, which is announcing a change and bringing with you the support and knowledge of how you can bring your people through those barriers of resistance that are naturally going to exist and will exist every single time. It's a very different mindset when you get on that stage as a leader to present change between the two.
Trust During Uncertainty
SPEAKER_02Now, speaking of change, Travis, how can leaders create trust though during uncertainty, especially about these new rollouts that you just discussed in a court in a company?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think, and one of the things that's really critical about becoming either a great leader, a great organization, and building that trust is that trust is not built by simply making a singular change one time, it's built over time, over consistency, over creating environments and cultures that actually engage with those ways of working or ways of leading or ways of changing. So I think I think one of the messages is implementing something gets you closer to that place. But to your point, trust is extremely important, and that requires consistency over time of showing, hey, this is how we do change, and we're gonna do it, and it was successful, and we're gonna do that again and again and again. So you know that by change number three or four, we will bring the support. We are here to listen. We do want you involved, we do care about you. You know, I I look at so many organizations that talk about caring about their employees, but time and time again, they make non-uh employee decisions that impact people that then make it very clear that the business was more important than the person, and then they continue to say, Well, we care about you, you're very important to us.
SPEAKER_02They will always say that, yes, no matter how toxic the environment is, and no matter how many times they've proven themselves that they're they're not coming from a place of authenticity, they'll still say it and and get and like what you said, all the change. Usually when they bring change, it's not for the teams and team's favor, not for a win-win. It's usually we're we're move we're moving the goal line, we're we're taking away benefits, we're making it harder for you, but don't worry about it. We're all family. Because you know that that that's what a lot of these or yes, we're family. We're well, yeah. I I the Menendez brothers and and Kitty and Jose, they were family too. I mean, what so what's your point? Okay, I I need like that analogy. Now with you know, since neuroscience here, how does the brain influence decision making more than what most people actually realize?
Decision Bias And The Case For Transparency
SPEAKER_01Well, I I think the the one thing about decision making, the one thing about you know going through uh especially transformation that a lot of people don't realize is that uh your brain, because of the way that it's designed, and again, the foundations of what is there to do, keep you alive, keep you safe, right? It it taints and tints your view of the world. So when things are brought to you, like a change as an example, uh we like to think that we're unbiased. And we look at it and we say, Oh, I can assess that for its its value and its merit. No, we can't. It is absolutely going to be always skewed towards some worst case scenario planning, which tints your viewpoint on that change. And this happens so often at organizations. Right, where you hear something, and all of a sudden you're like, oh, that could be really bad. We don't usually say, Oh, that could be really great. Right. That's not our first reaction. The first reaction is, ooh, that could be really bad. Because we're looking at it from the lens of survival and safety. And that's what we do. That's the purpose of it. So I think in decision making, what's really important is trying to get yourself out of some of that tinting of the environment to truly assess it, but also recognizing that we're likely going to skew negative. And I think that's important for leaders to understand as well as people to understand, to say, you know, even though we might create this really great narrative, the likelihood of people taking it with the intent versus taking it with, you know, potential for disaster is extremely low, right? They're going to take it for disaster almost every single time. So we need to make sure that we're addressing their concerns, addressing the way that they're thinking. And um, and that's one thing that I think is really eye-opening to a lot of leaders is you know, they tend to want to keep things close and secret and not be super transparent, but that actually creates more problems than it solves. And I know that a lot of people are like, well, but there's some things we just can't share. Like, well, the risk of actually sharing it is far lower than if you don't, because people are smart, one, and two, if you don't give them the why, they're gonna assume that you're full of it, right? And you you know communications, so it's like if you don't tell them what you sound like a, you know, you sound like a a guy that's trying to sell them snake oil, right? And they're like, I don't believe it for a second. Um and so I think that's that's kind of for me the critical part of decision making is recognizing that we have a bias, we're not unbiased individuals in decision making.
SPEAKER_02Now, Travis, what daily practices can actually help people just become more adaptable?
Daily Habits For Adaptability
SPEAKER_01What I love about neuroscience, and and I would say, okay, so we've got a mix probably of folks listening. There's probably people that are leaders um who are creating change. There's three roles in change, right? The person who created the change is the one saying, This is what I want to do. Everyone, please adapt. There's the person who's receiving the change, who's being asked to adapt, and then there's a person in the middle, the person who's being asked to both change and help others change. That's where most middle leadership sits. But what's really beautiful about neuroscience is that when you are looking at it from a leadership perspective, the same barriers and neurology exist for you, whether you're leading, driving, or receiving changes. So, you know, I say I wrote the book for leaders because I think they can have the most impact. But if you read the book as someone who's an individual contributor and doesn't necessarily lead a team, this the same barriers and the same things are applicable to you. So, daily practice that I talk to about there, there's a workshop that I do called uh becoming a change rock star. And really all it's about is looking internally as you're going through change and questioning what is it that I'm feeling in this moment when I feel resistant? What barrier is the potential that I'm running up against? And really thinking about it from that perspective. And what's beautiful is that you can then come with a here's what I need. So, as an example, I use this quite a bit. When you're looking at something, you're saying, okay, I have started creating a narrative in my head about what this means. And I don't know if it's true or not, but it's the narrative I'm building in my head. In that moment, the question you should be asking yourself is why am I building a narrative? What narrative am I building and why? And what that tells you is that if you're actually building a narrative, most likely you're missing information. So what you really need in that moment to overcome that barrier of understanding and moving forward is information. It helps you articulate your needs to others. So I talk about, you know, bringing that to your to your boss or to your manager, saying, Hey, you know what? I'm I'm struggling with this particular change. I think the thing for me is I'm missing information. And and here are the things that I think would help me understand a little bit more. And that gives you something tactical, something tangible to actually bring to the table instead of sitting quietly with it yourself. So for me, it's it's the daily practice of asking questions about yourself and really what is the what's the core? What's your check engine like telling you when you're feeling that resistance, you're feeling that pull? Interesting.
AI Adoption And Fear Of Replacement
SPEAKER_02Now, Travis, what trends are you seeing that that leaders need to just embrace and prepare for over the upcoming decade or so?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I suppose we can't get through the whole episode without talking a little bit about AI. Um you have to bring that up a little bit, right? Um I think I think obviously AI is is a huge part of the next decade of work. Um, maybe, maybe less time. Who knows what the next thing will be? I mean, we continue to evolve very, very quickly in these areas. But um like the way that we're thinking about it um is really interesting. And I I think leaders need to really embrace the idea that AI requires a very different type of implementation and adoption than what we've seen in the past, because it's really doing uh it's working against us in many ways in terms of like getting organizations to actually adopt it. And I I actually just announced a a new uh keynote and workshop just a couple weeks ago, uh, titled Why Your AI transformation is neurologically destined to fail and what you can do about it. And the reason that I I I kind of joke about that a little tongue tongue in cheek, but um from a from an adoption perspective, what's really happening right now is that companies are using it as if it's something that people should be just excited to use and and you know, play with and experiment with, but we don't really work that way as people. That's not how we become innovative, um, just having a tool and playing with it. It's and this tool in particular could be something that creates a lot of value or something that actually takes a lot of value away from you, meaning it could replace your role, right? So I think embracing this idea that we have to be far more human and far more clear about what we're gonna use these tools to do at our organizations. Um, and that's a really uncomfortable place for a lot of leaders. I think over the next you know, five to ten years, that's gonna become the norm as AI spawns off a lot of different tools and a lot of different, you know, ways of working. Um, that's gonna become more and more important. It's very different from implementing, you know, a CRM or or a system of that type. This is not a system.
SPEAKER_02Definitely not. And the CRM is just repetitions uh key. Oh, anybody can any organization hop onto any new CRM and yeah.
Small Business Change Without Big Spend
SPEAKER_02Now, how can a small business owner, a lot of them have limited resources, how can they apply the principles without breaking the bank?
SPEAKER_01I think the beautiful thing is that most of the principles don't cost a thing. Um, and and and that's and you know, I uh I think in the introduction, I I say something like, the idea is that you don't need a consultant to do this. Uh, you know, it's really about being more human. And so I think a lot of a lot of folks that run small businesses, a lot of folks that are even solopreneurs but work with a lot of different people or teams, these are foundational items of just being more human at the end of the day. And so most of them cost nothing. Most of the ways of doing this cost nothing. Um, and I think that's the beauty of it, is that it's free.
SPEAKER_02That's what that's the magic word for me, brother. Like, like I said, I've I've been a student for for far too long. And like I said, there's no, hey, buy the next 20 books. It it's it it's written. Read, implement. Read, implement.
SPEAKER_01I guess I guess I shouldn't say completely free. I guess the book is like 1995 or something.
SPEAKER_02But well, and also time, if if if you know what I mean, if if we're talking you know, time time. Forget real tactical, it's not exactly free, but but to me it's free compared you you're not like well, you know them, or if you they do buy the book at the very end, we do have this monthly workshop live, or if you request one in your city for the low, low price of five thousand dollars with a meet and greet and your own autograph copy for ten thousand dollars. Nothing like that. So it's the one question every leader though should ask themselves right now for this year for this year.
Staying Human In An AI Workplace
SPEAKER_03I think it's just how do we stay human?
SPEAKER_01With AI, with everything becoming so focused on that, there are human elements that we cannot replace. And you know, I think you've probably seen the the articles too, that interestingly enough, people are actually outsourcing the more creative pieces to AI rather than the more automated pieces to AI. And so I think as a leader, one of the things that you should be really asking yourself is how do we maintain the human elements of what we do and using the tools as tools or partners in doing that in a better way?
SPEAKER_02Travis, the human element is what separates you from your competitor. You yourself can't be replicated. And and I I always now if if if we go, if our go-to with everything is AI, then then what's the point in me hiring you? What what's what's the point in me using your service? Because it's not really even you anymore. Yeah, we could go with anybody, we could go with the cheapest, we could go with anybody as long as they're you know they had the answer.
SPEAKER_01You know, it's funny you bring that up. I was in a I was in a workshop not that long ago, and we were having a really, really good conversation about what was the right model to be using for our for for the teams that were that were coming together. There was a lot that was going on with operations, and they're like, What's the right model as we bring these teams together and as we redesign some things? And there's a really robust conversation, there's a lot of different opinions. It was great, you know, it was it was the human business stuff that I I love. I think I can probably go out on Lynn and say you probably love it too, where like everyone's got perspectives and they're bringing something to the table and really talking, you know, in a productive way. And then someone put it into Chat GPT and asked it for the answer. And then like conversation just died at that point because everyone's like, Well, do we need to keep talking, or is that the right answer? And in my head, all I wanted to say was the conversation we were just having was the conversation that needed to be had to get everyone on board, to get everyone aligned, to get everyone in the same direction. And we should anchor in what we decided on, and then we should leverage our tools as a partner to say, where are the blind spots? What are other things that we should be considering? Take a contrarian view of this. Like, we should be using it to challenge our authentic original thinking, not for it to tell us what the answer of the operating model and the way that we should be structured and organized looks like, right? Because it has this much context, and it's gonna tell you exactly what every book out there that talks about operating models or structures is gonna tell you to do. But you now just lost one, you killed the conversation, and two, you just lost the the probably what was coming to a really amazing um collaborative end of that conversation, and it really ended it.
SPEAKER_02Well, what separates our episode then? Can you imagine if I asked the same can questions or instead of just having uh a normal conversation, I'm just like chat GPT or Jarvis or whatever. This I am interviewing Travis.
SPEAKER_03Who is Travis? What shall I ask him? Wouldn't be very much fun.
SPEAKER_02It's not coming from me either. And uh we wouldn't be laughing, we wouldn't actually be having a there would be zero rapport too. Because it wouldn't be like a genuine it it wouldn't be a question coming from me. It'd be like AI back, well, according to our calculations, uh, this would be the correct questions to ask them. It's like why why thank you. It's like all those guru, all those programs. You can write the next warrant piece, you could be the next Ernest Hemingway. Let AI write you this. I'm like, oh yeah, that's damn man. Well we'll we'll we'll have the next William Shakespeare coming up, man. Michael Crichton and all these uh authors now that you know with the help of AI, you too. Oh man.
Imposter Syndrome And Feeling Stuck
SPEAKER_02Last question, brother. And then we need to know how to find the book, and more importantly, how to find you. Just if you could give one piece of advice, because there's that one person just feels stuck. He thinks he's a leader, he might not be a leader. What would the one piece of advice be?
SPEAKER_01Someone told me this once, and it it really stuck with me when I was early in my career. Um and so I'll give you a two-part answer because you know, I I I'll take liberties to say that I get two answers. But um someone told me early in my career that imposter syndrome is something that only people who are highly capable can feel. People who are incapable don't actually feel imposter syndrome because it requires a level of um self-reflection and self-acknowledgement that they don't possess. And so I say that a lot to students because a lot of students, especially as they're like coming up on graduation and looking into the business world or into whatever career they're going into, they're like, oh my gosh, I just don't think I am ready or belong or whatever. I'm like, the fact that you even feel that tells me that you are. So lean into it, you're you'll be fine. Imposter syndrome only exists when you have capability. So that's the first part. The second part is really dig into what is making you feel the way that you're feeling in those moments of am I a good, am I a leader? Am I doing it right? Am I because a lot of times what comes from that is you have a deep sense of care, a deep sense of uh passion, a deep sense of commitment. And I think that's something that should always be celebrated, regardless uh of the situation. And so, like, really dig into like why are you feeling that? Is it because I'm passionate about this? Is it because I'm committed to something? Is it because I'm loyal to something? Like, dig into what's truly driving that feeling of stuck. Because a lot of times it's not necessarily that you're stuck, it's just you have some really strong beliefs about uh your world around you.
SPEAKER_03Perfect, Travis Haler, the author of Rethink Resistance.
SPEAKER_02Now, more importantly, twofold question. I know how to find the book.
Where To Buy And How To Connect
SPEAKER_02Got an advanced copy, but where do they buy it? And more importantly, how do they follow you, brother?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. So uh the book available on all major booksellers, so Amazon, Barnes and Noble, whatever your your choice of bookseller is, um, launches on June 23rd. And um, you know, if you want to learn more about the book, if if you're listening to this and it's before June 23rd, you can go to my website, Travishaler.com/slash book. Uh, that'll take you right to the book page and it'll tell you a little bit about what the book is about, more than what we talked about here. And then in terms of following me, LinkedIn, please connect with me on LinkedIn. Um, I love connecting with people, um, especially those who have either read the book or have thoughts about you know change, transformation, you know, psychology, neuroscience. So uh I read all my all my own messages, um, and I I would love to have a conversation.
SPEAKER_02So, brother, thank you. Shows you third times of trauma. Sorry about having to reschedule. Thank you for finding an hour of your day. Thank you for wanting to be the change, man. You are a leader, you're in service, you want people to excel, and that's what every great leader does. You're in abundance, brother. Thank you for your time.
SPEAKER_01Thank you so much for having me.