What If It Did Work?
What If It Did Work?
Rebuilding Healthy Masculinity
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If you’re a man trying to stay strong without turning bitter, you’ve probably felt the squeeze: get told masculinity is the problem, then get sold a rage-filled “manosphere” solution that makes everything worse. We wanted a smarter third option, so we brought on Bill McCamley, former New Mexico Secretary of Labor, educator, and mental health advocate, to talk through what modern manhood can look like when it’s confident, emotionally healthy, and actually connected to other people.
We dig into the men’s mental health crisis with zero posturing: loneliness, isolation, suicide risk, overdose, and why so many guys are quietly struggling. Bill breaks down how social media platforms profit from conflict, how doomscrolling rewires your stress response, and why losing real-life “reps” talking to people shows up everywhere, from friendships to dating. We also get specific about dating apps, listening better, and why porn is a terrible teacher for real intimacy and consent.
Then we go into the weird future that’s already here: AI girlfriends, synthetic companionship, and the way parasocial “connection” can deepen the very loneliness it promises to solve. We also hit the underrated basics that change everything, like sleep, plus the rising risks around gambling and sports betting apps. Finally, Bill makes the case for education, apprenticeships, the trades, teaching, and mentorship as practical ways men can rebuild purpose and community.
If this conversation gives you language for what you’ve been feeling, share it with a friend who needs it. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: what’s one real-life habit you’ll commit to this week to get off the phone and back into your life?
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Cold Open And Big Questions
SPEAKER_00I never told no one that my whole life I've been holding back. Every time I load my gun up, so fucking two for the stall. I hear a voice like you think you are.
SPEAKER_02Alright, everybody, another day, another dollar, another one of my favorite episodes of my favorite podcast, because I am biased. What if it did work? And welcome back today's guest. He's a former New Mexico Secretary of Labor, public servant. He's an educator, mental health advocate, an author who spent decades working at the intersection of policy, workforce development, and human behavior. Over the years, he's seen firsthand the challenges facing modern men from loneliness and isolation to mental health struggles, economic uncertainty, and the search for purpose in a rapidly changing world. His latest book, gotta love the title, dudes, now what being a man in the 21st century without being a dick. You could have put asshole, but probably wouldn't have sold as much. Tackles one of the most important conversations happening today. How can men remain strong, ambitious, and successful while also being emotionally healthy, connected, and compassionate? Conversation about masculinity, leadership, mental health, relationships, and what it truly means to be a man in today's world. Please help me welcome Bill McComley. How's it going, brother? I'm good, Omar. Thanks for having me on. Man, uh you know what? And and this, you're gonna laugh. I'm not much of a Netflix guy because I always tell people either quit fucking streaming and work on your dreaming. But I saw a recent, and and this had to do with masculinity because for some odd reason, these days uh everybody has to be asexual, uh masculinity is a bad thing, and I was watching, and and you're a little younger than me, so you could have actually gone to this. The 1999 Woodstock. It would limit this kid, yeah, yes, yeah, but and you know, at at the end of the festival, they go ape shit, they literally burned down the place, and it had nothing to do with the bands that was playing, it had nothing to do with price gouging or overselling. It the gist of it all was toxic masculinity,
When Masculinity Became A Dirty Word
SPEAKER_02and and that's that that that's the not only the demise of that festival, but the demise of America is toxic masculinity. Now, I I I I see you're laughing, but doesn't that just blow your mind that we've come to a point in our lives now that being masculine is seen as like taboo?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think that's really what I tried to address during the book. You're the name of your podcast is what if it did work? And I think that's a lot of the questions that we of dudes uh face right now. You know, I I spent 20 plus years on the Democrat side of the political aisle as as a as a you know public servant. And recently that's been really hard because on one side you have kind of going full towards the Trump MAGA manosphere stuff, where all these guys are saying they're taking away your ability to be a man, and the only way to show your masculinity is to be angry all the time and go conquer something and make $10 billion and all that kind of stuff. And there's a lot of guys that are very uncomfortable with that. On the flip side, uh and this is the uh side of the aisle that I represented for a while, there's a lot of feminists out there saying toxic masculinity is the only masculinity. It's time for you to retreat. Don't vote for anyone that's not a woman, don't ever take leadership positions. That was actually a 2018 Washington Post column. And that's not right either. And so the question I think a lot of us fellas face that don't want to go to another Netflix documentary that that came out recently about the manosphere, where these guys are on there just saying you're gonna be lonely all the time, women are below you, you know, all those sorts of things. The only way to feel good about yourself mentally is to go conquer something. They don't want to go there, but also, hey, there is strength and value in what a lot of fellows bring to the table: risk taking, physical strength, uh, the want to be a protector and a provider, all those things. The question is, how do we do those things and grow internally into better people? Because Omar, a lot of our younger brothers right now, it's not a good situation. My current job is doing mental health, suicide prevention, and substance abuse programming for union construction workers, 90% of whom are dudes. And they have the highest suicide rate and death by overdose rate by profession in the country. And it's a fucking problem. And so you've got to be able to go where these guys are at and meet them where they're at. But what I hear, a lot of these folks are retreating online because they don't feel comfortable in society. That makes them lonely. And the feeling of alone and the feeling that you're a burden to somebody else, those two things come together, lead to high suicide rates. We as dudes, 40% of us show depressive signs in the last couple of weeks. 44 of us admit to at least the fleeting thought of suicide in the last two weeks. We are three and a half to four times as more likely to kill ourselves than women. Uh, 70% of overdoses in the last few years, the deaths by overdose, we're dudes. We're more likely to be in prison, more likely to live on the street. We watch more porn, we're fatter than women, and we die sooner. And so if we can't figure out a way of being who we are, but a better version of that, through a lot of this anger and pain going on in to say society, it's gonna lead to a lot of shit. And then a lot of those topics were really what I tried to address in the book. Now, a lot of it's you know, politics, that's what I did for a long time, but a lot of it's just value sets. I also interviewed
The Two Extremes Pulling Men Apart
SPEAKER_01some interesting guys, a former NFL player, a guy who was a cop for 25 years, a former teacher of the year, a dude who works with um a bunch of folks living on the street. The forward was actually written by a guy who will be fighting next Friday for the welterweight champion of the Bear Knuckles Fighting League, a friend of mine, Austin Trout. He was actually the WBA champion with gloved uh boxing back in 2000, uh I think it was 2012 to 14, and he barely lost to Canelo Alvarez in the Alamo Dome. And Austin, his name's Austin Trout. Great dude. But he talks a lot about hey, look, strength is good, working out is good, and we've got to be good in our upstairs, we've got to be good in our spirit because when we can make our bodies right, our spirits right, and our heads right, that's where we become healthier and happier. And those are a lot of the themes that I explore in the book.
SPEAKER_02That's what I love about it, dude. I mean, I got it, I got a copy from you. I I like the pit, dude. From the start, I I didn't know what to expect from the book because I'm like, man, talk about a fucking forward title. I'm like, ballsy title. This is the type of title that you would expect from like the 1970s, the 1980s, when you know, no holds barred. Like, this is something that our Archie Bunker himself would have picked up and and said just by the title, and go, Edith, meet, look at this, look at this fucking book that I got. And it I mean, it's something because I mean, we do have to because to me, it it and at one point in my life when I was younger, I I did lean towards the left. Now I'm I'm indifferent, but I am in the middle. But at one time, the Democrats, we were the party that was in the middle, the the Bill Clinton's Al Gores. Right now, in the Democratic Party, they would see be seen as two racist rednecks from the South. And I I mean, and this was very recent, this was a couple of years ago. At my CrossFit box, young woman graduated from college, had had to tell us all her basket weaving degree or whatever, which was fine. And she wanted to know what I was up to, and I'm like, Yeah, you know, I'm LSU, and she wanted my bio. And I'm like, Yeah, I was vice president of my fraternity, and she's like, Oh, so you're part of one of those rapist organizations that just treat women like shit and rape women, and I was thinking to myself, I'm like, Yeah, it was not that long, it was, you know, maybe in the dark ages, but I I do believe if if I was raping anybody or any of my fraternity brothers, I think we'd have all been in jail. But thank, thank, thank you for the icebreaker there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I've decided moving forward, no more litmus tests, no more red lines. The only conversation, the only conversation I want to have with you before I have a further conversation is are you willing to learn? And am I willing to learn? Because there are some folks out there, the Ben Shapiro's of the world, who go to these college campuses, have these debates, and then cut everything off to make himself look good. Because his only goal is owning someone and getting clicks. And we just need to get away from that. In this era of Twitter and 60 second video scrolls, we have to lean deeper into things. And to your point about the left, I talk in the book specifically about the Democratic Party up until November of last year, had a page on their website, the Democratic National Committee called Who We Serve. And there were 16 check boxes, one of which was women, and none of them included me. And I'm like, wait a minute, I've been a party official for a long time. I carried all the stuff you cared about. I got pot legalized, I did progressive taxation, I got border trade done. I did a lot of the things that you think are important, but now you don't want me. And that's a real problem. Also, um, I talk about DEI education. I actually am in favor of DEI education. I do think there's a role for us, especially as white guys, and that's who I am, to understand we've had the thumb on the scale for us for hundreds of years. And that has given us an advantage in a lot of ways. And that is important to know. And if you come into a group of dudes and try to hit them over the head with a two by four, make them feel guilty and cry, as Joanne Littman, who is a lady who wants to get more guys into these places and have these conversations, said that a lot of DEI educators do it, ain't gonna fucking work. And so, how do we have conversations with each other where we understand that, you know, maybe that woman, she was absolutely wrong to stereotype you. My whole thing is like she may have been sexually assaulted because one in five women have been raped or someone has tried to rape them. I have to have these conversations with feminists, though, saying, Look, I deal with all these guys who want to blow their heads off and who are ODing. I myself had a suicide attempt back in 2021. If you read that chapter in the book, I kind of went into detail on that as hard as that is. And there's a lot of dudes out there that are really struggling right now: loneliness, pain, the rejection they feel all over. That is damage too. That is pain too. And we've all, I think, got to learn how to walk and shoot gum at the same time. I I wrote a separate article later on after the book called The Pain Olympics, where if all we're doing is comparing each other's pain and suffering, we're not gonna learn and we're not gonna get better. And I just I
Suicide Stats And The Loneliness Trap
SPEAKER_01hope we can all get over those things to learn how to learn more, to learn how to be more accepting of each other and to get better as human beings. That's the only way we're gonna get better as a society.
SPEAKER_02Well, it it's like such a talking point, but it it's like to get clicks and views, and it's it's like to get both extremes. Like the simple fact that you know, on the far extreme right, this you're being marginalized, that that white people one day are just gonna be so marginalized that you know it that Charlton Heston's gonna come one day in his his spaceship and it's gonna be like you know, the death and destruction of this planet, starting with with the United States. And no, nobody's being marginalized. But on the other side, too, we can't be like the far left can't be like saying, Oh, you know, all men have to disappear, they need to press the fuck on. Well then, uh who's who's you know, the there there's a role for everybody, and you know, to not to sound like a uh cliche of old TV shows or sound bites like what Rodney King once said, man, can't we all just get along?
SPEAKER_01Literally, yeah, I I really worry, I'll tell you, brother, I really worry about the social media stuff because when we go online and we live on social media, and by the way, the US Census Bureau every year does a thing called they they call a time use count. And so they poll people and say, What do you spend your time doing? And in 2003, they polled young people under the age of 30, said, What do you spend your time doing? And they spent an average of 67 minutes a day talking to each other in person, socializing. The reason I mentioned 2003 is that is the year that MySpace came out. And that was the first, I'm getting a grid because you remember that shit. That was the first social media program to come out. And then a couple years later, YouTube comes
Social Media Addiction And Lost Social Skills
SPEAKER_01out, and then Facebook and Twitter come out, and now we've got Snapchat and TikTok and Instagram reels and all those sorts of things. And what we've seen is young people are now down to socializing 37 minutes a day in person. And that's got all sorts of consequences. The first being if we get addicted to being online, and that is what a lot of these social media companies want. They want the conflict, they want the negativity because what happens? In the back of your brain is a thing called your amygdala. And when you feel that fight or flight response that we evolved to get so we could run away from the lions back in the jumble or we could fight them and live, conflict and negativity sparks a whole bunch of chemicals to go into your brain and it keeps you integrated into what they want. You're gonna continue to look at their stuff, you're gonna scroll, and you're gonna want to stay on there and respond and get into it with people. And that's really effective for them to sell attention to the highest bidder. However, if that's all you do, you're gonna be a you're not gonna sleep as much, you're gonna be more pissed off all the time, your physical health is gonna deteriorate, and you're not gonna socialize in real life with people. Seeing a game with your boys, you know, going out to coffee with a girl, these things are good for your mental health. And that's a good thing. The other thing I worry about with that in general is we as dudes, because especially the young guys out there, are not learning how to get their reps in talking to other people. I think it's one of the biggest reasons. Guys won't talk, won't ask girls out. They don't know how. If you're only spending that 37 minutes a day talking to people, whereas it used to be up in the 60s, it I tell people all the time Steph Curry takes 300 fucking three-pointers every practice, every day of his life. And that's why he is so good at what he does. And if we're not getting our reps in as fellas talking to people in real life, it's gonna get in the way of us socializing with other people. And frankly, with women, and if we're worried about asking women out and getting to these good relationships, especially the younger guys, we gotta be better at just interacting with people in general, or else we're never gonna get our practice in, we're never gonna feel the confidence to do it, and then we're never gonna get with women.
SPEAKER_02But even if they do, I'm sure you've seen this, Bill. A couple, young couple out on dates. Oh, yeah, freaking right next to each other, and instead of interacting, yep, he's texting her, not not even looking at her. He doesn't know whether the date's really going well or not. Yeah, can't read body language, can't can't see tonality, can't see anything. He's texting the way, and she's texting him back, and it's like, this is a fucking date.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a problem. And what I want, especially the younger guys to understand, see, you and I grew up without the cell phones. I didn't get my first cell phone, uh, it was 2000, it was the spring of my second year at Harvard, so it's 2003. I got a cell phone so I can make calls to do my master's thesis. I remember, and it was one of them fucking bricks, you know what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_02You want to know why I I got my phone around that, but you you want to know that ultimately why I finally broke down and got you're gonna laugh at this because I saw a commercial that I could get instant text messages. I you gotta pay for the text messages, right, with the LSU football scores every quarter, both in football and in basketball. And and to me that was like but before it wasn't about communication. I'm like, are you fucking for real? I I can find out real time, and it really wasn't real time. It was like, you know, 10 minutes later, right, 15 minutes later, whatever. And I'm I was like mind blown. It was like that's why I have to have a cell phone. And yeah, I I mean, literally, I mean I I was socially awkward. I could only imagine if I grew up now, yeah, and I I was glued to a cell phone because you know, uh people do it too because it's so hard to get out of your comfort zone. I mean, it's scary talking to people, it's scary meeting people, it's scary communicating, but it's so much easier if you know you're you're like the horse that you you know with with with with the the blindfolds looking straight into a little screen.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I really again worry about that with the social media because if all we're doing, first of all, you're right, I've seen those couples, those couples in the early 20s that are testing each other over dinner. I think the next time that happens, I'm just gonna walk over and be like, guys, what are you doing? Like, this isn't this isn't gonna work, right? Uh, and I don't want to because it's none of my business, but I I want to, I want to go over there and be like, y'all, you're supposed to be talking with one another. Uh again, Omar, I I teach suicide prevention classes. And if there's a feeling of I'm alone in this world, no one's connecting with you, no one's supporting you, that's one of the big three reasons that people kill themselves. And so I worry so much about people getting online because it's easier. And as you talked about, the risk factor of if I talk to someone, am I gonna be rejected? And I do worry about that overall because you have these women that have had such bad experiences, and so they worry about it. But then these guys, 70 so Leslie Jones, the comedian on the Daily Show a few months ago did a whole thing, and she was going off on this study that showed something like 48% of young single men have not talked to a woman in the last year, and she's getting all incredulous about that. It was actually a pretty funny rant. She's like, I've seen you guys play Madden, and you can beat a game in 20 minutes with women. You only need to learn one button, which was pretty funny. But what she didn't say is in the same study, 70% of women want men to approach them. That's what they say, but then a lot of guys feel like if I ever go out and try to approach you, um, you say, Don't bother me, I'm at the gym, don't bother me, and I'm in the bookstore, don't bother me in the bar, I'm with my friends. And so you go online and the online thing sucks. You know, Scott Galloway talks about how the average guy has to swipe 200 times on a dating app to be able to get one coffee date. Date, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I I unfortunately after I got divorced, like, yeah, you're it's hard, yeah, dude. And and it it's like humbling because it's like no matter how your self-esteem, you can have the greatest self-esteem, and you you can think you're like John Travolta back in Saturday Night Fever, but all of a sudden, you know, it's crickets, all of a sudden you think you're like friggin' Quasimoto, like the hunchback of no it's like and then you you know you you read that you know that the Menendez brothers are married, or all these people on Death Row are laying pipe and getting
Dating Apps Reality Check And Better Habits
SPEAKER_02dates left and right, or they're married, and you're like, and I can't even buy a a friggin' date. Did uh uh did I put somewhere that I'm I'm a mass murderer or what on a social profile? So I completely get it. I've been there, done that, and yes, it's one of the most humbling experiences.
SPEAKER_01Well, and what I would say to men, especially younger men or single men, there's some things that we can do about that. Number one, if you're if you're stuck on the dating apps, I would ask a woman to go over your pictures for you because I hear from so many women, dude, so many women. No more fucking fish picks, no more topless bathroom selfies, because apparently they see them all the time, right? Ask a woman to go over your online profile for you. And not obviously not everyone's gonna be the same, but ask a few and get kind of what they feel because they might. Be looking for different things than you're looking for. Number two, if you do talk to women, do a lot of listening. I think there's so many women that, and frankly, for sometimes some really good reasons, think guys are always just trying to prove how big and bad and tough they are, and they mansplain everything and they don't listen. And I would ask questions and really be interested in the answer. And again, direct listening instead of just being on your cell phone all the time, show interest in what they're doing, those sorts of things. I would also say this, and if you read the book, you know this, there's a whole chapter on there about sex. And porn is not a fucking instruction manual for sex. And I think a lot of these young men, because you know, 92% of young men under the age of 18 have seen porn a lot of times before they actually have sex for real. And that shit is a fantasy world, man. You don't have to have a 10-inch fucking cock. You just don't. I mean, there are a few women that want that, but for everyone, there's 10 or 20. They're like, get that thing away from me, right? There's no communication in porn, there's no foreplay in porn. And a woman, a lot of times, wants to have a connection with you as well. And so you just don't see those things in porn. And so realizing that the whole type of relations you're going to have in the bedroom requires some work and requires some communication. You know, those things are real. And I think women appreciate it when you listen to them, appreciate it when you ask them questions, appreciate it when you respect them in the bedroom and don't treat it like it's a fucking porn. And those things matter. And a lot of women appreciate it. I think those are the types of things we as guys can do to help improve ourselves in these regards.
SPEAKER_02But Bill, not only is porn unrealistic, but I want someone to call their plumber and see if they're there on time on the actual date. Porn, at least back in the day when it was uncomfortable because you had to find some some one of your friends and it was a group thing. And I I tell people all the time, I'm like the old man, you know what porn was back then? You had to sit around with a bunch of guys because someone found their dad's friggin' stash. That's right. Compared to now, and then you had to watch like a 20-minute video or 30-minute because it actually had a plot, or they they they had someone writing a horrible plot compared to now that you know it's like bam, it it's like shit, yeah. No, no wonder everybody's socially awkward.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I it the uh when researching the book, I'll tell you, brother, one of the things that scared me the most. Have you heard about these online girlfriends?
SPEAKER_02Online girlfriends, man, it's tough enough to have real girlfriends. What yes, I I read it in the book, but I I want you to so it's it's a believe it or not, you're gonna laugh. I I had to Google because I'm like, this can't be fucking real. Oh, it's real.
SPEAKER_01There were 60 million of them downloaded in the first six months of last year, and that number is actually increasing as more of our brothers feel confused and not understanding what's going on in the world around us. They want to have an affirmation, and that's where I worry about where they go to like the Andrew Tates of the
Porn Myths And Real Intimacy
SPEAKER_01world who give them all these answers, uh, the wrong answers, and that motherfucker's killing a lot of my friends because he's like, depression isn't real, you just need to go conquer something. Like that fuck no, fuck no.
SPEAKER_02Oh, dude, his his stuff, he is so like so for Oh, you know, maybe in Romania they'll after I do this video, they'll just come and harass me. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01Dude, 12 million Twitter followers, 12 million Twitter followers, and so he has a following, but you know, he advocates for rape. He's like, the best way to get a threesome is martini, martini, martini, martini, bang threesome. It's fucking rape. If you give a girl, what is that, two and a half shots of alcohol times four is you know, 10 shots of booze, she's not gonna have the awareness to consent to having sex with you. That's fucking rape. And so those sorts of things are what we as men need to address and push back on if we want women to feel comfortable with us. I think that's really important. The problem, though, too, is because these guys are feeling so lonely and so withdrawn and uncertain about what's going on, they turn online and they go to Andrew Tate or they go to these online girlfriends. And so, what these companies have done have basically modified Chat GPT, those types of programs to tell you what you want to hear, and you can design it. And the longer you're on it, the more it learns about the things that you like. So it'll just keep spitting things you like back. And brother, it gets super fucking dystopian. I spent two or three days looking into these things, researching the book. The one I found, I think it was Dream AI or some shit like that. They had like 400 different types, quote unquote, of uh companions you could get. And it was like wicked stepmother and bad teacher and stepsister. This the worst one, though, was like uh Fatima, the refugee with no further dignity left or something. I'm like, that's horrible shit. And here's the other part if you get one of these things and you live online, like getting this thing to give you affirmation and jerking off to it, that is not going to make you happier long term. It's just not. And we need to understand that real life interactions with real people, be that you know, going to catch the ballgame with your boys on a Sunday afternoon or meeting a girl in real life, having a good conversation, maybe even going home and getting laid, those things make us healthier, happier men. And we've got to embrace those things, and we can't just fucking give up.
SPEAKER_02Oh, you're gonna laugh at this because I just saw this a couple of days ago. All right, one of the top um OnlyFan models was actually a dude. Yeah, he did you see the story? No, but go on, go on. I know where you're going. Everything through AI, normal looking guy, highly intelligent, and he had it that every he every movement, he would do all these movements and all that, but it was a hot chick. Yeah, so you have all these dudes dump dumping millions of dollars, and technically, if they want to know, they're that's kind of gay, they're actually stroke into a dude like a 20-year-old dude. And I don't give a shit.
SPEAKER_01Dude, the only here's the only fans thing that I heard. First of all, I see that and I totally believe it. I will also say this you've seen reports where OnlyFans models, the guys go on there and they almost don't even care half the time about seeing the naked girl. They want to talk about their day, their problems at work, their workout routine, you know, getting dissed by their wife or whatever. And so, what these girls do, I think they don't care. So, what they'll do is they're they will hire chatters from like India or whatever and pay them a little bit of money to pay them like five bucks an hour. And they started just doing it with AI because it's cheaper that way. You get ChatGPT or whoever to respond, and these guys just want to have some emotional fucking
AI Companions And The New Dystopia
SPEAKER_01connection. You know, I teach this a lot of time in my class. We are dudes, we as dudes are taught over and over and over again any kind of emotional connection is fucking bad, any kind of ask for help is bad, and that's leading to a lot of suicides for one. But we have the capacity to do this. If you've ever been to a and you're an LSU fan, so you have been to a sports game, you will see dudes laugh, shout for joy, slump in sadness, they will fucking cry. We'll cry.
SPEAKER_02I've cried, we we'll cry at a we'll cry, we'll hug a fucking dude that's a stranger.
SPEAKER_01Dude, we have the hardware to do this, and I'm not saying you have to express emotion all the time, but all these motherfuckers out there saying a man is stoic and never shows emotion other than anger, brother. That is bad for you if you don't go ahead.
SPEAKER_02When you say stoic, do they actually know fucking Marcus Aurelius? Yeah, no, no, they act it's like are you for real?
SPEAKER_01Stoicism to your point, Omar. That's a great point. Stoicism, the ancient Greek and mostly Roman philosophical thing, is not about not showing emotion, it's just about being content in your situation. But dude, people fucking perverted to whatever they want, man.
SPEAKER_02But here's the thing just like how people do it to the Bible or do whatever. I'm gonna be start on that. But that's it's true though, right? I mean, every all you have all these dumb fucks pardon my French, because we're both educated, that can't even fucking that don't even know where Rome is. It's an Italy, guys. Or that Romania, or that most of Europe at one time was part of fucking Rome, but here they're quoting. It's like, dude, maybe if you would have taken a fucking class on Socrates and Plato and all that, you know what those people remind me of? Those are the same idiots that that that aren't leaders, they're bosses that have like a leadership quote with with the fucking eagle flying, but but are the biggest asshole bosses. Right. And you're laughing because they're dude. Whenever I see someone quote uh what Marcus Aurelius, I'm like, do you honestly know that what what time frame can you can you name me any other Roman emperors? Uh and it which fucking easy because if somebody just said fucking Caesar, because there's a casino named after him in Las Vegas.
SPEAKER_01Short sidebar. Have you ever gone to despair.com? No, I should though. They make demotivational posters, and they some of them are great. My favorite one is a bunch of hands in the middle with a bunch of suit sleeves or whatever, about ready to do one of these, and it has meetings, and below it it says none of us is as dumb as all of us. Anyway, but but to the point, like stoicism is not about not showing emotion, it's about understanding your situation and finding the benefit that you're at where you're at. But here's the problem if we keep everything inside all the time, because we think it's you know, expressing emotion is weak or it's fucking womanly, and I don't want to be a pussy, all those things, what happens biologically? Our brain, like being online and getting pissed off all the time, doom scrolling six hours a day, continually keeps us in a biological state of being hyper-aware and hyper-vigilant and hyper-stressed out. And that's okay for a while. But if you keep going and going and going, what's gonna happen? A, it's gonna be bad for your physical health. You're gonna get higher blood pressure, you're gonna get more inflammation, all of those things in your body itself. Furthermore, it's gonna hurt your ability to sleep. And if you don't sleep, it's a real problem. You know, I do this mental health stuff and I put the chapter on mental health in the book, and I ran it by my therapist. I'm saying, brother, did I get this okay? And he was like, Bill, you did really good, but you gotta put fucking sleep in there. Because if we don't sleep, chronic insomniacs are 10 times as likely as people who do get sleep to show depressive signs and 17 times more likely to show signs of stress. And that shit makes you more angry all the time, which means you're less sleep, which means you're more irritated, which means you don't perform as well. And it's this fucking whirlpool of shit. And so we as dudes really have to figure out a way of figuring out how we can do a better job of expressing ourselves emotionally sometimes. You don't have to cry and shout all the time, but we have the hardware, as we talked about being at a game. We we know how to do this. There's nothing wrong with listening to your buddy when he's going through a hard time and commiserating with him. There's nothing wrong with celebrating when your fucking brother gets a promotion. Like these are okay times to show emotion and they're better for us as well. And I think that's a super, super important part of how we become healthier, happier, better men.
SPEAKER_02Well, the one thing that you did say was sleep, because people listen to gurus, you know, the I'm paying my guru so much money.
Emotions Stoicism And Why Sleep Matters
SPEAKER_02So you can, it's a multi-level marketing thing, so you can pay me more money, and I'll give you the secret. Oh, well, you know, it's a top tier, and it's like, yeah, dumb fuck. But the people do it, you don't need sleep, you don't need sleep, and you're right because I mean it it takes me a while. I'm a slow learner that you know a guru is just somebody that's full of shit, and you're right. If I mean there's times that you your your highs are high, but your lows are lows, and it's like I I remember feeling like I was getting ready to listen to to the cure and the patch mode and all this emo, all this sad Smith shit be because I'm getting dumped, and it's like it wasn't until I realized that you know, yeah, without sleep, man, you you can have some stupid ass thoughts go through your head, man. And and I can I can see how somebody if you're already feeling like you're down in it and lack of sleep, holy shit, man. I I can see why why someone would put a gun in their mouth easily or pop pills or something like that. Because not only are are you having irrational thoughts, but man, that 10x is that 20x is it if you're an insomnia and you haven't had sleep in like a month, like real sleep.
SPEAKER_01And I think all of this, first of all, let's let's talk about the substance use for a second, because a lot of guys who are feeling bad. Look, my last name is McCamley. I drink Jameson, just what might I do, right? I did a lot of that during COVID. And here's the thing if I go have two or three shots, I'm gonna be feel better at the time. But alcohol is a depressant, and so when I come off that, the hangover in the morning that, dude, I'm almost 50, it's starting to get even worse. I've cut way back on the drinking.
SPEAKER_02Dude, you don't have to speak.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I hear you. But at the same point in time, when you come off of that influence, whether it's cocaine and you're bouncing off the walls or you got a bunch of booze and you're listening to the fucking cure, you're gonna feel worse because the chemicals in your brain are fucked up. Now, I'm not saying don't go have a couple of pints during the game or whatever. I'm not that guy, but I am saying if we get too addicted to that shit, it's like the gambling. You do you know that the addiction that kills men the most through suicide is actually gambling? 48% of dudes have a fucking sports betting app, a casino on their phone if they're between the ages of 18 and 49. And 20% of those guys admit to overbetting more than they can afford. And that increases your stress levels, it increases your worry levels because you get that dopamine hit when you get the win. But look, those sports betting apps, those casinos, they don't exist because they lose all the time. And same thing with the Cal Shi and the prediction markets and stuff.
SPEAKER_02We're emotional, man. I and I tell people like I've I've been so close to being addicted to gambling, addicted to drugs, addict because it's biases are so when it comes to betting irrational. We laugh, but we know and we've all been there. Fuck it, man. I'm gonna show this casino, I'm gonna grab some more money out of the ATM, I'm gonna show this publicly traded corporation what the fuck's up. And it's the same thing with sports betting. Dude, you're right. And it's it's legal now. Before it was either you know, some back alley, or we'd have to fly literally to Las Vegas to sports book and bet.
SPEAKER_01I know some people that miss the back alley bookie, by the way.
SPEAKER_02I've I've done it. I've done both uh and yeah, man, and and it's like and it's easy because you people bet more, yeah, because they don't they yes, logic, they don't understand when you flip a coin, it can still be heads 20 times, but they're like, oh fuck, I'm do, I'm due, I'm due. This team's getting ready. What one, it's not just wins and losses, guys. You have to follow there's point spreads.
SPEAKER_01They know what they're doing. And again, I'm not saying never gamble, I'm not saying never gamble. Oh, no, exactly. I'm not, I'm not that guy. If if as long as you can control it, you know, I know people in AA who they have to go completely sober. Gamblers Anonymous, they have to go completely sober. Fine. But for the most part, here's what we need to understand the guys that win big in sports betting are mathematical geniuses. They understand all of the odds, they understand statistics, they research. There was a guy I was listening to one time who won the most money on NBA betting, so much that they won't let him bet anymore at the sportsbooks. And he found out, because he would bet over-unders half times on NBA games, and would find out that the team that is closest to their bench on offense in the second half would actually score on average four or five points more. So he would always bet over on the home team in the second half. That's how crazy you have to get to make money at these sorts of things consistently. And the other thing I worry about with the gambling is all the insider fucking trading. You know, I worry a lot about these prop bets. And if uh the pitchers had been in issues, like, oh, I know there's a prop bet on me in the third inning throwing a bunch of balls, so I can just do it. That the prediction markets, there were those guys that knew that Trump wanted to go get that guy in Venezuela, and they went on Cal Shi and they bet however much money that we're gonna invade Venezuela on this day at this time because they knew what the answer was.
SPEAKER_02That was proven that there's insider trade and market manipulation within the White House all over the place. Oh not only now.
SPEAKER_01That's why, frankly, that's why, frankly, any kind of investment should be illegal across the board.
SPEAKER_02I don't care Democrat, Republican, Congress, but if you take those jobs, you're out of those things because you spoke about corona, bipartisan, everybody was buying hand over fist, Pfizer, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I do think though, Omar, you know, we're we're kind of getting the end of our time here. I want to make sure I point this out too, though. All of these things are symptoms of a lot of guys having some problems. We we do feel confused. There is a lot of fear out there, frankly, and a lot of pain. And I would say there's a couple things. Number one, for any guy out there, I was asked on one of these earlier, I did what is the one thing you would say to guys? And I would say this go out and meet someone in person. Get off the fucking phone, meet your boys, go play Call of Duty in person, go to a fucking ball game in person, take a girl out to coffee in person,
Alcohol Drugs And Sports Betting Risks
SPEAKER_01do those things in real life because that's gonna make you happier. Secondly, I do think we have a have to have a conversation about the economy, because this is another thing that's worrying me for the future. Men are going to college less, they just are. Like 60% of new college enrollees every year are now female. And because we drop out more, we don't get our degrees as much. And there's a lot of reasons for that. Uh, some of them are fair, like colleges are spending so much fucking money on administrative staff and so much money on like Texas Tech has a goddamn lazy river, right? That people say, I got to take out all these loans to go to school and I don't know if I'm getting back. Those are fair. And if you do get a degree over the course of your lifetime, you are still much more likely to make more money. That also includes associates' degrees and apprenticeships. I work with union construction workers. Apprenticeships are great. Being an electrician, being a plumber, wonderful, useful job where you can make a good living if, if, if, if you get the proper education through the apprenticeship, which is basically like getting an associate's degree, that you need to be good at your job. We cannot be scared of getting educated because it will lead to a better economic future. I will also say this other than the trades, so many jobs that guys get in, because let's face it, we like to fix stuff. We want to be computer scientists, we want to be financial planners, we want to deal with stuff. Women have traditionally picked what they call the heel jobs, health education and literacy. And what that means is they work with people, they're nurses, they're business managers, their social workers, et cetera, and so on. And here's the issue with AI and robots coming out, a lot of those jobs with the quote unquote stuff that you don't need an education for are going away. Every single new forklift and the Hyundai plant that opened in Georgia a few, I think it was last year, is a Robot. Now, you can get a job if you know how, programming and fixing the robots, programming and fixing the 3D printers. But if we're not willing to keep getting our education levels up and we're maybe not even willing to take a job where we deal with people, I really have some concerns about the economic future of a lot of fellas. And I hope to God some of us consider going into those positions. And especially I want to do one more shout-out for teaching. I actually substitute teach once a month. It's one of my um give back things because with fellas, there's not a lot of role models. Like 76% of public school teachers are women. And so we need more men being big brothers, being teachers, being basketball coaches, because so many of these guys are growing up without a role model. And Omar, dude, I go into these middle school and high school social studies and government classes because that's what I have my degree in. And like, we're not doing a fucking worksheet today. We're gonna learn some shit. I get asked so much are you a coach? What's your workout regime? How much protein do you take? And these boys just want to feel like they can connect with a male voice. So, fellas, I urge you, if you have the freedom and the opportunity, try to go out and be a mentor to some of these young men because they really fucking need it, and it'll make you feel better as well.
SPEAKER_02You're sounding like old school there, dude. Like the old old man, get off my lawn. But but I I completely agree with you uh uh on all this stuff, because we do need healthy masculinity, and you're right, but even back even back in the day it was worse. For I I mean, I graduated high school in '91. I I think only had like a couple of male teachers from like elementary through high school. So and I I mean people guys go to college, great place to meet chicks, dude.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, top gun. I I talk about this in the book. If you see the original Top Gun, the one from '86, where Maverick and Goose go into the bar and they look around, and he's like, This is what I call a target rich environment because there were so many hot girls in there. Fellas, if you go to school, it's a 60-40 ratio of women to men. It is not a bad place to meet some good women. But I but I I will also say this, man. You talked about being old school in the OG. I was on an interview with the American Institute of Boys and Men's uh digital researcher. Uh, he has a he has a little thing he's putting together a couple of weeks ago. And we were talking about sex. We're talking about porn and sex and BDSM and all this sort of stuff. And I was like, you know, the people talking about this, you see, you see Galloway talking about this, and he says, When I met my wife, I wanted to have sex with her. I was physically attracted to her, and that is an okay thing. We're now married, we've got kids, we've got a good relationship. You saw um, oh God, the senator from Nebraska, who's unfortunately got cancer now and is gonna die. Um, I'm blanking on his name, but he went on 60 minutes in April, and he didn't give a fuck. He's gonna you know pass away here in a couple of months, and he was saying young people are not coming together anymore. There, we're we're not talking to one another, we're not even having sex anymore. And I do think there's a role for OGs who've been around and seen some things and have some lessons to be okay having these conversations in in healthy and positive ways, and that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_02Well, when it's crazy, but when you tell people, guys, to go out with your boys to the sporting event, ask the chick out for coffee. Did you know that clear across like all sporting events? It's not only is attendance down, but now we have to have it like a rock concert just for the attention and the dopamine at anything, whether it's hockey, baseball, basketball, is is is it's like, am I at a corn concert or am I watching a hockey game?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. The senator's name was Ben Sass. Um, and he he's still around, but go watch it. But to your point, Galloway lives in London now, and he talks about on average, one pub every day is closing in England. And if you've ever been over there, man, pubs are awesome. I go to Ireland once a year to see friends of mine and always make them take me out to the pubs because it's such a great social fun that their sense of humor is amazing. You have two or three pints and the and the jokes flow and it's awesome. But these are disappearing partly because young people are drinking less, but a lot of it is they're just not going out anymore. And Galloway makes the argument look, as bad as alcohol could be for you, loneliness is worse. And so finding ways for us to be more conscientiously interactive with our fucking dudes, that's okay. And it here's the funny thing about relationships. Back when you and I were growing up, the women, the typical women's complaint was dudes go out with their guys on Saturday and get drunk and come home and I don't like it. Now, a lot of women are complaining that guys don't have friends. So if you're in a relationship, a lot of women see themselves as the only emotional sink for the guy, and that's tough for them. And they're like, Go with your friends sometimes, have healthy friendships, man. And so that's that's really what I would say to a lot of a lot of fellas out there is let's be real conscientious and fucking strategic about setting plans, going out with people, doing those things together, and we're gonna be better for it, man.
SPEAKER_02The Gen Z guy. If every young man listening right now could hear one piece of advice from me, what would it be?
SPEAKER_01Put the fucking phone down for a while. Sorry, I I keep going back to that. AI girlfriends are on the phone, the gambling's on the phone, the six hours a day doom scrolling is on the phone. Find ways of truly getting off that sucker and hanging out with people in real life. If that's the one thing I could say, that would be it. It's gonna be better for our mental health, it's gonna be better for our physical health. You know, Austin, the boxer I was telling you about, we were having a conversation. He's like, I love it when young dudes come into the gym because they put on the fucking gloves and they're fucking dodging and weaving and throwing and all this kind of stuff. And what can't they do if they got gloves on? Scroll on the phones. Um, the the second thing I would say though, in addition to that, is let's not be afraid of bettering ourselves. You know, I worry when I hear these guys go to the Andrew Tates of the world, everything's about conquest. I love competition. I love the feeling of competing with someone. I still play soccer goalie. Um, when I was running for office, it was a huge competition and it brought the best out in me. And I want competition to be a tool for us as men to learn how to be better. That means we have to take responsibility for when we fuck up, to know we ourselves can be better and communicate to our teams around us that can we we can be better, but that we can also improve. And, you know, when I talk about Trump, as many of the things that piss me off about him, his inability to take responsibility for anything bad. Just last week, just last week, when that uh interview or that that peace peace deal came out with Iran and JD Vance was negotiating it, they said, How do you feel about this? He's like, Well, if it works, I'll take credit for it. But if it sucks, I'm gonna blame JD. Like, that's not the way men grow into better, more constructive people. So don't be afraid to try some things, maybe deal with some rejection for a while and get better. Those are really important values we got to take.
SPEAKER_02And to bring up your point earlier, let's from 30 minutes a day interacting. Oh, let's bring it back
Education Trades Teaching And Male Mentors
SPEAKER_02up. I like what you said, man. Fucking ask out that chick on like a real date, coffee. Just be nice about it. And she might say yes, and that's fun. Exactly. I mean, they're they're not gonna knock on your door unless you're well, you have your dead, so nobody can knock on on the mansion and say, hey, we're here.
SPEAKER_01Going out with girls is fun, man. Having sex with them in good positive ways is fun and good for you, and you're never, ever, ever gonna get the same kind of feeling overall from some AI program you can download on your computer and jerk off to it.
SPEAKER_02It's just not gonna be the same, just not, especially that OnlyFans, dude, that I told you about Bill. How do people find you? And more importantly, how did people this book is for everybody? It it's for people like you and I get off my lawn, and especially the young whippersnappers that need to bring more masculinity and grow some balls. The title of it, dudes now what being a man in the twenty-first century without being a dick. How do they find you? And more importantly, how do they get this book?
SPEAKER_01So if you go to my website, which is just billmcamley.net, b-i-l-l, m-c-c-am-m-le-y.net, you can go on there, find a little bit more about me. You have all the links to buy the book, right? My dudes now, what being a man in the 21st century without buying it without being a dick. And there's some interactive opportunities there too. And here's the thing: I ask people for feedback. Like if and and I actually put in the in the first introduction, I promise you, if you read this book, you are not going to agree with me on everything. That's good. If everyone agreed with everything on everybody on everything, it'd be fucking boring out there. And there's ways to get a hold of me. I would love feedback on what you like, what you don't like, what could be improved, how we move forward. Because for me, writing the book was both an avenue for me to deal with some of my own shit, frankly, and also a way to start having these conversations in real positive ways. There's a few dudes out there that are talking to fellas in the right way. There's not a lot. And so we need to figure out how to have more of these conversations with each other in positive ways. And this was an opportunity for me to do that. So I encourage feedback, I encourage you to get back in touch with me. My only answer, my only request is let's all be respectful to one another, right? It's all about learning, it's all about growing, it's all about getting better. We don't do that by like you're fucking beta or you're a fucking cock. You know, let's stay away from that stuff and grow. That's really what I want to see.
SPEAKER_02Dude, reading the book, how can you have a hater? I mean, the literally, you want men, you want boys to grow up to be men, you want men to be men, you want we need more masculinity. That's it. If someone's a hater, they really have to look look themselves in the mirror. The only thing that they can hate on you is you strike a chord and it's everything that they're lacking, or or or that instead of confidence, they they have that swagger and they're all pretenders, yeah, and and they can't check any of the boxes. Brother, from being a political career to now helping save men and save men from the ultimate sacrifice of the gift of life, brother. You've always been in service, but now this
Practical Advice And Where To Find Bill
SPEAKER_02mission is a mission that's bipartisan. This is something that everybody can get behind.
SPEAKER_01Thanks, man. I really appreciate that. That's good.
SPEAKER_02I'm happy you read it and liked it. Not only that, but thank you, thank you for the time. Thank you for res for uh, you know, re I had a reschedule. But hey, you know, two old guys. We're not machines. Exactly. But you know what? You're on a mission. Thank you for everything, brother. And next book and the book after that, open invite, man. Love the conversation, love the topic. An amazing book. And you know, everybody needs to quit buying the bullshit books on fiction. There's enough books on dinosaurs, there's enough books on vampires and werewolves and all that other shit. This is stuff that can move the needle, brother. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate you having me on, Omar. Let's let's let's tell the fellows that they're let's just keep talking and keep growing. This is how we get better. That's really what we want to do.