Why We Don't Celebrate Pride Month - (Plus, updates on the future of the podcast)

On today’s episode, some changes are coming to the podcast! 
 
Also, how do we navigate pride month without celebrating it? How can we seek understanding for those who celebrate pride while maintaining our boundaries? 
 
 We also take your questions at the end of the episode.

On this podcast, we are faith-affirming first. This means before anything else, we affirm and support the doctrine of Jesus Christ as found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

On this podcast, we are faith-affirming first. This means before anything else, we affirm and support the doctrine of Jesus Christ as found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome back to Sit Down with Sky and Amanda, where we're navigating a divisive world and a mixed orientation marriage. On this podcast, we are faith affirming. First, this means before anything else, we affirm and support the doctrine of Jesus Christ as found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Today's episode is a little bit different. I'm going to be going over the direction of the podcast, and then Amanda and I recorded an episode back at the beginning of June about Pride Month, our thoughts on it, how we navigate it. So it's a little bit dated, but I still wanted to get it out there. All of that and more on today's episode of Sit Down with Sky and Amanda. All right. Welcome everyone. Back to the podcast. as I mentioned in the intro, I'm going to be talking a little bit about the direction of the podcast. There going to be a few changes, and I wanted to go into those, but also just to start off, I want to just to thank all of you for your continued support. one of the things that continues to motivate me to put this podcast out there, despite all of the sort of hiccups and, and, roadblocks we've faced, is just how many of you continue to tune in, and to listen, even if it's been weeks and months since we put out an episode and I receive like a weekly report of of how many are listening on, on different platforms, and I'm continually surprised at how many of you, come back. It's not a huge group like it's not millions. It's not tens of thousands, but it's it's a enough of you that I feel really motivated and really thankful for the support that we continue to get with this podcast. so as I mentioned, we are going to have a few changes with the the format and the direction of the podcast. we love doing this. And we've continued we'd, we've loved continue to get these episodes out there. And we've had sort of a, a natural evolution from press in, in the early episodes and then having Amanda on. And we want to continue to do that. We want to as possible have Amanda on the show, But we are going to do this format a little bit more where it's just me and my microphone and alone in my basement, my unfinished basement, feeling a little bit like a hostage in my own home with our stories looming all around me. But, I, I want to still continue to do this with some changes happening in our family. The most pressing, the most exciting being our new baby who should be here pretty much any day now, which we're very excited about. And so obviously, that comes with a lot more responsibilities and a full schedule, especially for Amanda. so she is going to be a little bit more preoccupied, doing which I would argue is, a little bit more important things. but we will continue to have her on as possible. but we want to put something out there a little bit more regularly, in this sort of format where it's just me, talking about, these issues as we have been. So that is the, the future of the show. but I wanted to kind of illustrate the why of this podcast with an experience that I had. I was shopping, grocery shopping, listening to a podcast, which I sometimes do, to Amanda's dismay, because I often will forget things because my mind is occupied with the podcast. But I was listening to an episode of a, a podcast from a latter day Saint perspective, talking about LGBTQ topics. And, and they had someone on to share their experience. And, I connected to them in a lot of ways. And I felt, more compassion for them, listening to their story and, and some of theirs, the struggles that they've experienced. And I always have this sort of caveat when, talking about content creators in the latter day Saint LGBTQ sort of space. I feel there are so many who are such good people who have the best intentions in mind, who are wanting to elevate the voices of those who experience same sex attraction or, experience questions of identity. to yeah, elevate them and to share their experience so that we can empathize with them more. And I think that is a positive. I think there is nothing wrong with and I think there is a lot of good that can come out of listening to the stories of those who live differently or who have different experiences. I don't think we should shut ourselves off from anyone in any sort of experience or anything we can learn from, because we can always learn from those who have different experiences. But I was listening to this podcast and I finished that episode feeling a little bit spiritually, empty. I wanted that sort of faith promoting experience, listening to a gospel, topic, left that podcast not feeling that I wanted to find something that was more faith promoting, on the same topic, on something LGBTQ related, that encouraged me and, helped me to see the benefits of living the gospel and and living my covenants and sharing it with others. you know, there are a few shows out there that I've, that I really like and that I've listened to, that are faith promoting and about this topic. but what I realized is that I had, you know, really already listened to those and, I couldn't think of any more that were out there. Yeah, I just kind of had this realization at how unbalanced this conversation is within the church. There are many resources, you know, a lot of, voices and a lot of content out there that is centered on LGBTQ issues. Within a latter day Saint context. But not a lot that I would feel comfortable sharing with someone I loved and putting my stamp of approval on it as something as a resource that was would promote faith and that would help people to live their covenants and point them to the Savior. that was kind of eye opening for me. I've always felt like this void was, was there this void of, unapologetically faith promoting LGBTQ, latter day Saint content? felt this void, and I have sought to do my best to add to that void. by no means do I feel like I am the only or the best voice to fill that void. but that has always been the at least the goal with the podcast is to create something that you would feel comfortable sharing with a family member, where you would feel confident that the message in whatever episode you you send them from the show would promote faith and would help your loved one to embrace their covenants and to move in a direction that was fully faith promoting. that is what we want to do. Censor in this podcast, I've always felt a little bit inadequate. I, I feel like there are so many others out there who are much more articulate and much more versed in research and scripture, and all of these things that would add a lot to this podcast. But I have still felt a sort of pull to do my best, to tackle these issues in a way that people can relate with that is fully faith promoting, faith centered, but that also understands this the experience and the plight of those who wrestle with, I, you know, questions of identity or same sex attraction or whatever it may be, sort of in this world of LGBTQ issues. So that has always been my goal despite, not feeling adequate to, to to tackle that and to, be an adequate voice in this, topic. But that's always been my goal. And so that is what we want to continue to do with this podcast, just with a little bit different of, format. again, I hope you will, continue to listen to support us as you can, you know, subscribe on whatever platform you're deciding to listen on. we will continue to put these episodes out and, maybe I will have some guests on here occasionally to add a sort of different perspective to the conversation. but someone that I would feel like I could give my stamp of approval of being fully faith promoting and faith centered. so that is, yeah, that is the future of the podcast. I hope you will continue to stick around. And again, share this with someone that you feel could benefit from it. but with all of that housekeeping and rambling taken care of, Let's move now to the episode that Amanda and I recorded previously about Pride Month. Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. I, feel like every time we start a new episode, it's like, hey, it's been a while. I know we did that last time. And now here we are again. Which brings me to my first point at the beginning here. Just, a thank you to those who have stuck around. I know that we have not had the most, regular schedule with releasing episodes, especially with this season. but we got a lot going on. We have a lot going on and off our backs. Not long year. Crazy year. Yeah. We, So we moved into a new place. might sound a little bit more echoey than usual. I'm going to try and fix that in post, but we'll see. because we got some hard floors instead of that carpet that absorbs the sound. So it's a little echoey. Yeah. And, yeah, a new makeshift studio. Our, coffee table. It was our coffee table before, but same coffee table, different room, different house and house. Yeah, a house that actually fits us and will fit our growing family, which, will be growing more in July, which we even talk about that in the podcast. I know you posted about it. I think we did. Maybe not though. Either way, you probably have already seen we having a baby and baby girl in July we're excited about. And so we needed a bigger place. And so that's why we're here. but, just a big thank you to everyone who has stuck around. I'm always surprised how, many of you continue to come back and listen, despite how terrible I am at marketing this, and which is ironic because, Oh, yeah, that's another change in our life. I started a new job as a podcast producer, or, Scripture central is the organization. They are considered an advocate for the church. It's a nonprofit. but we create church related content. you may have seen the Scripture Plus app. That is one of the things that we do, and the, the social media account tied to that with Jasmine. She's really great. And, makes a lot of Instagram Reels about different church related topics. but I am producing a podcast for them called Let's Get Real with Stephen Jones. Stephen is a great guy. he has a skill for just, like, getting a story out of somebody. And so we have guests on like, President Reese from BYU or Brad Wilcox. he had a conversation with Elder Bednar, over Skype or Skype. How old am I? Zoom, zoom? Yeah. the Skype even exist anymore? I don't know. I don't even know. But anyway, that's been that is my new full time thing and it's been really awesome. If you aren't familiar with scripture. Plus, I would highly recommend, not scripture plus Scripture central scripture plus here's your plus as well as well. Yeah. It's great. It's a great app. but I would really recommend looking into the website and all of the things that we're producing. there's a show that we're doing called Marvelous Work. kind of a documentary documentary series. finding different evidences for the Book of Mormon. So anyway, it's a great organization to be involved with. And I, still kind of pinching myself a little bit, realizing that I get to do that full time. It's really cool. Anyway, my point was the perfect It's a little ironic that I'm so bad at producing this podcast because I do it as a full time job. so anyway, thank you to all, who continue to come back and and support us. And listen, we, we enjoy doing this and want to do this as much as we can. So today we are talking about, Pride Month. This is kind of our annual guide to pride. I guess, but kind of, a different take on it because obviously we, don't celebrate pride or are not really involved with the movement. but still want to where we can build bridges and find understanding for those who do choose to engage with the symbol and the movement, associated with pride. So we are going to kind of just start off with defining what this is like, defining the problem or the sort of tension that, that exists between. Specifically, we're going to be talking about latter day Saints, because that's what this podcast is geared toward. but like, what is the tension with those who choose to engage with pride in those who don't? What is the sort of what what is the tension and why does it exist, and what can we do about it? I, a lot of times kind of get to don't yarn. You're going to. Are you that bored already? No, I'm just pregnant. a lot of times I kind of get to the point where I think, like, why does it even matter? Like, why push back on things like pride? Like, why can't we just agree to disagree and not present any sort of pushback to things like pride? And I think we can agree to disagree, but I think that's the wrong, wrong approach. It's kind of a little bit defeatist, maybe to just take that attitude of like, just people just can do what they want and it's whatever, and it doesn't affect me and and yada, yada, yada. Like, I understand the appeal of that. And I often find myself wanting to adopt that mindset. it is it does have it does that mindset does have ramifications. You know, you think, oh, well, it's someone else's life. I don't really care what they do, but it does have downstream effects on culture and our society at large. So it's not it's not harmless. You know, having that mindset, there's kind of and like what's the limiting principle with that? Because obviously there are certain things that we would all agree are worth pushing back on. It's just kind of like, what are those things in our culture and when is it beneficial to push back on them? And so with things like pride there's kind of they're kind of like two camps, I think, within latter day Saint circles of people who do celebrate pride. They're kind of the more politically engaged, more progressively minded. Those who are like actively in that world and also members of the church and kind of trying to bring those together. so that's kind of one. But then there are also those who are a little bit like less politically involved and just kind of adopt the, the symbols in this case, pride, adopt the symbol of pride as a way of just kind of passively expressing love to people in, you know, LGBTQ. And so there's kind of the to that they're a little bit more libertarian minded and don't have strong feelings about it either way, but they just see it as kind of a nice thing to do. and I don't think either of them have bad intentions. I think both camps are like wanting to promote love maybe for different reasons. The more progressive minded, it's more like this is the best way to show love. And this is actively showing love, whereas the other side is like, oh yeah, well. Like Sarah, that sounds good to me. Rainbows are pretty. And yeah, like I'm like, I don't want to. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or make them feel bad about their life or their choices, which again, I can understand like that, that appeal of, a lot of latter day Saints, I think are very conflict averse. Myself included. I'm not naturally drawn to conflict, and I, find myself involved in that quite a bit, at least online, but in like, personal interactions, my my go to when there is some sort of conflict is to retreat. and so I understand how difficult that can be. but with pride, I guess we should just kind of define the why of why I personally speak up about, like, my, my problems and my, my issues with it as a movement. essentially that I mean, there is the sort of love and tolerance aspect of it, which is fine. And on its face, seems good. Yeah. Like, I want to love people. Yeah, that's that's a good thing to do. but that sort of part of pride is also intertwined and I think, connected and, what's the word? I'm looking inseparably connected with this sort of modern, sexual ethics tied to the queer liberation movement and this sort of sexual liberation, moving away from traditional norms and morals in regards to relationships and sex and family and all of that. Like, that is all a package deal. When it comes to pride. And you can, I think you can individually decide to only use pride as a symbol, to express the love side of it, like the tolerance and the expressing love to those with differences or to, you know, different beliefs and lifestyles and all that. You can use pride to just, engage with it, with that in mind. But you are also, whether consciously or not, helping to promulgate the whole package of pride, I guess. Yeah. Because someone on the outside can't, can't differentiate how you're defining how you're using the symbol of the rainbow flag or of pride or whatever. They can't differentiate that. So it just automatically becomes you're promoting everything that is behind the pride movement, and you can't separate those. Even if you can in your own mind, you can't separate those two other people who see a pride flag in your yard or whatever. Especially children. And like the younger generation, those who can't see fine distinctions, symbols are just shorthands. And so they're going to see, oh, this person is celebrating. And this is, engaging with this sort of symbol of pride and the rainbow and, and things like that. And then as they, as they grow up and understand more of what that movement is, they're going to assume that you support all of that, and it's just going to be you are helping promote that narrative and that idea throughout the culture and helping to grow pride as a symbol. and you can't really decide to, like, parse those things out. you can again, like, like Amanda said, you can individually. but you are still doing the groundwork for building pride as a movement. And as sort of collective, political movement, which is is what it is. and if if you believe in the message behind pride, then that's your prerogative. That's, you know, that's what you're free to do that. but I guess as me personally, as, as someone who believes that true and lasting joy is found in the restored gospel, I don't really feel comfortable engaging with and promoting a message that contradicts in a lot of ways, the core principles of the gospel. Because I want I want to promote, not just the sort of love side of the gospel that is important. and I think a lot of members of the church use pride as kind of a way to. It's like Christ told us to love, and pride is telling us to love, so they're the same thing. But the issue of that is the world views love in a completely different way than the way Christ views love. I mean, just the way that they view romantic love, for one, is completely different than what a marriage and what a long term relationship is. But even just charity love is the world views it as. Kind of like the best way to love someone is to just pat them on the head and say, you're doing a great job, everything's good, and leave it at that. Yeah, and just leave it at that and not ever, you know, kind of challenge those things that you know are harmful to someone that you love, different mindsets or habits or beliefs that you're like, that is hindering your progress. And it's It's hurting you, essentially. I think it was Thomas Aquinas, Saint Thomas Aquinas, who defined love as willing love is willing the good of the other, like willing the good and the other willing them to find and cultivate the best parts of themselves and move in a positive direction. That is like the I think that's my favorite definition of love. When you truly love someone, you want the best for them. You want them to be progressing toward their best self. And so anything that can deter them from that is not an expression of true love for them. It may be rooted in what you feel is like a love for them. But, I think love needs to be like, to what end? love needs to be to the end of helping each other reach their full potential and within the context of the gospel. You know, we believe that someone's full potential is the celestial kingdom being able to use the atonement and of Jesus Christ in their lives and change and progress and become the person that God wants them to be, the person who is going to be comfortable in God's present, in this again, in God's presence in the celestial kingdom. So anything less than that. You know, is is short selling someone. Yeah. And again, it might be with the best intentions and it might want, you know, it might be wanting to. What I see a lot of times is I think especially mothers in this regard because they do have that sort of very soft, compassionate, drive in their love for their children. They see their child going through something as difficult of as trying to reconcile a same sex attraction with the gospel. And that is a really challenging thing to do, especially in today's day and age, with all sort of mixed messaging. And it's a it's a challenging thing to do. but unfortunately what I see is parents and, and a lot of times mothers will, sort of adopt the more worldly approach to this issue, sort of adopt pride as a symbol and enable their child and kind of protect, try to protect their child from the gospel or like from the doctrine and from those principles that will actually help them become their best self. And again, I think it's with the best intentions of wanting to alleviate the sort of distress your child is facing. But again, to what end? And like, what do you sacrifice? you sacrifice your the potential for your child to continue on the covenant path, which is where we make and keep covenants with God and ultimately where true, the fullness of joy is found. I mean, that's really I understand when you're in an acute moment, an acute distress with your child, and you're wanting to like, resolve their distress, you want to you're thinking about the here and now. It's very short sighted, like you're wanting to just resolve that issue right then. But you have to keep in mind, you know, we're not just raising children. You're not just raising for us. We're not just raising a two year old or whatever. We're raising a child to be an adult, to be a full functioning adult. And just giving them like, it's just very short sighted, you know, it's not seeing the full picture. It may alleviate some distress in the moment, but I don't think we're setting ourselves up for success or our children up for success when that's the attitude and the mindset that we adopt. Yeah, I think so. And it's kind of the difference between like seeing your child in distress and not thinking of any unintended consequences and doing everything you can to get them out of that distress without looking at the big picture. I'm trying to think of like a specific, like apples to apples analogy. It is, and it's not coming to my head. So we're going to move on. But, I what I also see is no one really no one truly, refutes the fact that there are these sort of this sort of baggage in pride. There's sort of the hypersexualized components of it and celebrations. That's part of it. There is this like reimagining of sexual ethics and the sort of moving away from traditional morality that is part of it. So these things are part of pride, and I don't think really anyone refutes that fact, but they are kind of downplayed when you press someone on that, when you bring those up as potential issues with the symbol of pride, it always goes back to like, oh, well, look at the love side of pride. And I think most people can get on board with the love side of pride, the, tolerance for others side of pride. We all want to. I mean, not everyone, but like, I think most good people want to find ways to love and and tolerate people who make different decisions. That's that's really easy to sell. but we can't just ignore the sort of more radical components of pride as a as a symbol. like, we can't just, like, turn a blind eye to that and say, yeah, that's not really that's not a thing like that. Doesn't matter. It's all a package deal. And that is that is my main issue with pride. And why I don't personally engage with it is, is because I recognize that it it's a package deal and it comes all together and I'm beating the dead horse here. But you get the idea. So how can we better understand and minister to those who identify as LGBTQ or are in the pride community? And, live that way? What can we do to have greater understanding with them so that we can better minister and seek, you know, build bridges and have friendships and all of that? I think the, the what we have to do first, is understand the sort of starting points or like the baseline assumptions that people tend to have, who are in this community. And we came up with four, but there are probably a lot more. But just like for that, we see the most common ones. one would be that, pride celebrations are the best or even the only way to truly express love to those who identify as LGBTQ. That would be like a baseline assumption that they have. another one could be your sexuality or gender identity is a core component to who you are. It's like within your makeup, and it is a big piece core to who you are, not just sort of how we've talked about it as like more orbital or more, it's just piece. Piece. Yeah. I think this one's a big one because I mean, if it if it is your core identity of who you are and someone says, I don't choose to celebrate pride and your sexual orientation is tied so much to your, your identity, then obviously, I mean, the logical conclusion of that is it's going to feel really crummy when someone says, I don't celebrate pride because it feels like they're saying, well, I don't celebrate you. Yeah. It's like when it's so intertwined, it's it makes sense that someone would react poorly to I don't celebrate pride. and they would hear, like you said, they would hear, I don't love you or like, I don't want to engage with you. because it's so in enmeshed in who they are as a person. And I mean, we know everybody quotes President Nelson said about our identities, but we really need to just remember that our sexual orientation, gender identity is not this. I say gender identity, but your concept of self-concept myself. Yeah, it's not. It's not who you are. It's just a piece that makes up the puzzle of who you are as a person. another one could be that pursuing. Like, if you, if you experience same sex attraction or some sort of gender, confusion or whatever it may be. the only way to actualize your true self or to express your true self is to pursue a same sex relationship or pursue a gender transition. that like that is the path to get. And if you do anything else, you're not being true to yourself. Say, oh, sorry. What? No. I was like, can I get you off? No, I was gonna say, if you do anything else, such as marry someone of the opposite sex. Oh, you're not being true to your your true identity. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that that's that's sad. Yeah. another one could be that sexual fulfillment is a right is like a human right that everyone, everyone deserves. Deserves. Yeah. To be sexually fulfilled. There's a lot of, like, deserve language like sense. When is that a virtue or demanding things of others. Because and it's really tricky when you start talking about sexual fulfillment as a right. Like it's really sketchy. Like, I know people who frame it that way aren't saying that, like, you don't need consent in order to. They make consent essentially the like highest moral. Yeah. Like consent is the height. So it's not we're not saying that people that have this idea of sexual fulfillment as of right, that they're saying consent is not needed. Yeah. It's just kind of gets a little bit messy when you frame sexual fulfillment as a human right. Because when something becomes a right, it essentially you are saying that others have the obligation to provide it to you. And so it's kind of this and like, it's I think it's a messy way of thinking about it. And I think to. Sexual fulfillment in any relationship is something that you have to be worthy of. You have to work for it. It's not just something that someone owes you or that you deserve just by being a human being. And it's like, we talk about this thing. And in the back of my head, I hear the I hear the someone refuting with refuting it with like, nobody is arguing this, but we were just watching a documentary where somebody was arguing that somebody genuinely said that it was I don't even know how she worded it, but something like sexual fulfillment is right. Yeah. And so it's definitely an idea and it's catching on in some circles. I like to think that it's maybe a little more aberrational, but I'm not sure. yeah, I don't know. But either way, these are these are some starting points. There's some baseline assumptions that we have witnessed or have heard. And while, you know, I don't believe them, it does. It is helpful to understand them. so we know how to approach somebody who who has this sort of worldview. So I think a lot of members of the church will try to engage with someone, who has all of these baseline assumptions, but they try to engage with them as though they're starting points are the same, and they kind of talk to them as if they are active members of the church or more Orthodox members of the church. And what they're saying just kind of falls on deaf ears. And it is so counterproductive because you're not taking into account where the person you're talking to is coming from, what their beliefs are. So you might as well be talking to a doormat it's not going to get through to anyone through you have to. That's why, I mean, it's different with it's like a personal interaction, friendship versus an online interaction. But each either way, it has to start with some sort of respect point. Like you have to either develop a relationship first or find some sort of like common starting point first. There has to be something you can start with if you want. If the goal is to have a productive conversation, at least. but I just know that, like, yeah, with personal interactions, it, it has to start with a relationship. you have to cultivate a relationship on the things that you do, you do agree on. And we have plenty of people in our lives who we differ on this issue or on religious issues or anything, any number of things. we still have a good relationship with them. and it starts with that. Like it starts with these are the things that we can relate with. And then there might be opportunities to push back on ideas. But if we didn't have the relationship part of it, then there is no pushing back without getting into a fire and just become, yeah, it just becomes a fight. what are like some alternatives to pride? Because it's kind of in some circles it's kind of promoted as the best or even the only way to show love to people who identify as LGBTQ or, just like to like to show this love and tolerance. Pride is sort of the vehicle for that. And that's how it is a lot of times, sold to us. So if we if we don't engage with that, like, are we doomed to just be hateful, bigoted, like, what can we do? How can we how can we still express love without engaging with the symbol? I think I think the, the gospel I like I think the answer is that we need to utilize the gospel because it already has. Like it already implores us. God implores us to have the sort of love that I think pride is the counterfeit of, or like, tries to be the counterfeit of. A lot of the times. God already implores us to to love others as ourselves and to, love. This is where it gets a little tricky. Love unconditionally. Which again means something different in the world versus how we understand it in the gospel context. I got to out how we love people unconditionally and we, but we do. So again, we will the good in others. And, we love them, but we that doesn't mean we have to accept them as they are or like accept everything that they are doing. Well, I think promoting the gospel sometimes can be viewed by people outside the gospel as. So what is the word I'm looking I don't know, just so problematic, I guess, to use their own language. if we think about it, I mean, the gospel is set up perfectly to really provide us fulfillment and happiness in life as a byproduct. It's not it's not I mean, happiness is a great thing, and we all want to feel happy, but I feel like the gospel is set up to help, like with the end goal being our progress and a byproduct of working towards that end goal is happiness. Whereas I feel like pride kind of. Pursues happiness and fulfillment as the end goal. and that again, that's very shortsighted. It's not going to and it kind of becomes elusive when, when happiness is the goal. you're always searching out, you're always trying to find it. And it's hard to find. It's elusive. Yeah, yeah. Whereas like, the gospel is more focused on roles and responsibilities, where happiness and fulfillment is the byproduct. It's not that like happiness is the goal. as, as as we are fulfilling these roles and these responsibilities in our lives, we find and we like, we realize one day we oh, like, I'm happy, but it's not like that's the goal. And I think, yeah, like you said, a lot of a lot of, sort of how our culture looks at it is happiness is happiness and fulfillment is the goal and pride, things like the pride movement, promote that sort of end goal, like come and find who you are and embrace it and chase that which brings you the most satisfaction in this moment. And then you'll be happy. And that's why it's and not to say that people don't find happiness or fulfillment in the pride movement. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying the the amount. It's just a counterfeit to like what real fulfillment and happiness is. and I mean, obviously we wouldn't have this podcast if we didn't believe that was found through the gospel of Jesus Christ. So yeah, because because we all need I think humans need a life giving narrative. They need higher purpose. They need a sense of community roles and responsibilities. We need all of these things and, movements like pride seek to fill those roles, seek to become that. But a lot of times, like I said earlier, it becomes a counterfeit. And for a lot of latter day Saints, I think replaces the community. And like the church, like the, the, the gospel community, the church community, it kind of replaces it instead of, being in addition to it. But how can we I truly believe that the like, the community around church is the best one, not because it is such a great culture and like so amazing and there are no issues, but because what are the ends of the community? Well, it's to it's a covenantal relationship with God. Like we have that that framework serves as a sort of casing for the community within the church, and that's what makes it so important and so good. whereas things like pride may be beneficial to some people, like it may provide them some semblance of community and purpose in their life, but to what ends? It's kind of just to the ends of finding personal fulfillment in your personal, like your sexual life and and relationship life, which I mean, again, like there's some good in there, but also kind of misses the mark again. And it's it's not it's like good better best. Yeah, exactly. And it's not to the ends of what should be our ultimate goal as members of the church, which is to become more like Christ and to help our neighbors do the same. I, we wanted to touch on just kind of one another kind of issue or, relationship dynamic that does happen sometimes. I would like to think that it's hopefully not super common, but I have personally from people who have experienced this and I do think it happens on both sides. and that is just the the practice of ultimatums. obviously there have been cases of religious people, latter day Saints even giving ultimatums to family members, who are, you know, in the LGBTQ umbrella, essentially saying, if you are not going to live the gospel, I don't want you in my life. And that's horrible and that's wrong. and it also does happen on the flip side where, I think some people in the sort of pride LGBTQ world promote ultimatums as the best way to handle differences with religious family members. And it's kind of like, tell your your family member, if you don't support me in these ways, that I am defining or I want you to, I'm going to cut you out of my life because you're toxic. And that's that's the kind of mindset, and I think both of those are horrible and. Yeah, not conducive to any sort of it's they're more manipulative than anything. Yeah. They they like I feel like it's a hot topic right now. Boundaries. Yeah. And so sometimes ultimatums are confused for boundaries. For boundaries. Yeah. But really it's just manipulation trying to get someone to act in the way that you want them to. And that's not. That's not healthy at all. Yeah. A boundary would be like I don't feel comfortable with X but I will do Y. But either way I want you in my life. Like that would be a boundary. That would be a healthy boundary. Saying what you won't do and saying what you can do, but not making those things conditional on whether or not you remain in each other's life. Right. That'd be a healthy because that prioritizes the relationship, you know, in a boundary is made to prioritize yourself and your relationship. So the end goal being, I want to keep you in my life. This is how I feel comfortable supporting you and how I don't feel comfortable with that being the end goal. Ultimatums are you do what I want or I cut you out of my life. Yeah. And that's that's totally that has a totally different end goal. That's I get what I want or you're gone. It's not prioritizing the relationship all. And again, I think this is a lot of times it's kind of these are looked over like these dynamics are either looked over or downplayed, like I posted a real that talked about all the ultimatums recently and had people saying, this doesn't happen. They're like, who's actually doing this? This is just a sort of straw man. No one is actually doing this to family members, which I'm great that if you really haven't, it's great that if you really haven't witnessed this, but it does happen and it does happen and it is toxic and it is something that we should address without sort of downplaying, I hope it's the minority of cases, you know, but I do see things on social media. Again, you can't trust everything you see on social media, but unless it comes from Sit Down with Sky, oh you can trust us. But, there are things out there. There are people out there who talk about this. So yeah. And I again, I, I hope it's, few and far between. Few and far between, but it's. Yeah, I think we should be able to recognize those situations. And, call them out and talk about how that is not a healthy relationship dynamic. That is manipulation and on either side should be avoided at all costs. Why? to kind of bring it full circle. Why why talk about these things? Like why care why we kind of started going into that at the beginning, but why do we have to talk about our opposition to something that is kind of in the mainstream? Why not just let people do what they want? Amanda. Well, I, I kind of touched on this. I mean, the, you don't always get to. Say or dictate what messages you portray to others and to your children and what effect that has on culture at large. you know, if you are promoting pride, you don't always get to say like, okay, well, I accept this part of pride, but not this part. And that has downstream effects on our community, our church, the gospel. It. Yeah. Yeah, it's I think it's a broader it's bigger than we think. It's not just oh, well it doesn't really matter. I'll just say this and, you know, let this person live the way they want. It's bigger than that, you know. Yeah. And I want to like, I want to stand as, an example to our children and the rising generation of how to find this balance of loving individuals while discouraging sin and anything that is going to be destructive to your soul and body, like I want to be able to demonstrate that for our children, because I think that's one of the greatest flaws of our culture, is just the inability to find that balance and to have any sort of, semblance of, building bridges when it is just kind of like a very, either or very black and white, a very like lacking any sort of nuance. And we were talking about this the other day and how there are so many adults nowadays who can't find and who are so black and white in their thinking and can't find the, any sort of nuance. And, children are prone to think that way. It's just that hopefully they can grow out of that and you can kind of demonstrate for them how to find how to have all these distinctions in your life and maintain relationships with those who you don't agree with on a lot of things. And I, I do wrestle with a lot of fear in that regard where, like we, we are raising children in this world, where there are a lot of bad ideas out there and a lot of good people, people that we love who have these ideas. And so our children are going to be exposed to these things. And I, I do wrestle with a lot of fear around that. And I want to just, again, going back to earlier, like I want to shield them from those things and I just have to remind myself that it's like to a certain extent, we want to maintain their innocence as best we can. we want to maybe not have adult conversations in front of children and things like that, but there does have to be some amount of exposure to things as they are ready, so that you can have conversations with them, about how to parse out truth from error and how to parse out ideas from people and find all those distinctions. So I have to remind myself of that so I don't get just roped wrapped up in, into the fear side of it and worry so much about what our children will be exposed to that I just like, shut down and become debilitated and demoralized, I guess is a better word. So, just to wrap up here, let's I, let's answer a couple questions here. Maybe, this is from love Dot the Abundant Life on Instagram. how do you find healthy, virtuous, and intimate male friendships? That's probably, I guess more directed toward me. Is that is that meaning like, for a gay man? I think so, yeah. So as, someone this gay experience, the same sex attraction, whatever you want to say. I so I mean, I, I'm maybe not, like, the best person to ask about this because I don't have I do have friends. Like, obviously we have friends and I have good male relationships. And I guess the ways that I've cultivated those are just by, I don't know, just like seeking what you have in common. I think hanging out in groups is all is is beneficial. And having that like the ideal, especially if you're married, the ideal is to find couple friends where you can hang out with your spouse and someone else and their spouse, and you all get along like that's that's rare, but it's hard. You have to find everyone has to like each other. And I found that a lot of like a lot of the friends that have become really good friends have been people in our same situation. So like Preston and Taryn, they've become really good friends because we have a lot to relate with. relate on. But then also just like coworkers and things like that, I, I don't know, I, I try to just relate with the person again, like understanding their starting points and where they're coming from and then relate on the things that we can. And it doesn't always happen, it doesn't always work out well. But that's the ideal. this is from Lane Hazel on Instagram. Sorry if I said that wrong. What is the relationship dynamic like with your wife since having same sex attraction, what is the relationship dynamic like with your wife since having same sex attraction? I don't know anything different. So. Yeah, you know, it's very. I feel like I feel like, honestly. And maybe this is just my viewpoint, but I don't feel like, again, I don't have anything to compare it to, but I don't feel any different. Like, I don't look at Skyler and think, oh, there's my you know, like I said, I just think, oh, there's Skyler. You don't look at me and think, gay, gay, gay, gay, know, like going around. You have like an LED screen that says gay guys, you know, and I don't feel like we just have such a good relationship, friendship and bond that I, I don't it's any different And like. Yeah. And our life is built around so many good things family and quality time and hobbies and we have all of all of this good that fills our life up to where my sexuality isn't like the focus, I think people, because I'm vocal about it on social media and what I talk about on social media, it kind of appears as though this is like what consumes our lives, but it is very much it's just like a peripheral part of our relationship. Honestly, the majority of the issues that we have in marriage are just normal. What any cup, any like regular couple would experience. Yeah, like when you don't put the toilet seat down. Yeah. And that's, that's the only one of them. And when we go and blow all our of our money gambling. Yeah I'm a huge gambler, you know, so anyway, that I guess that's a good way to wait. We got another of a few other questions. I only had a couple, but then a few more popped in here. tips for those struggle. This is from Mrs. Maria, Kutta on Instagram. Again. Sorry. I'm like, trying to read the Instagram handles and my brain doesn't work because they're all squished together with no spaces. Tips for those struggling with a lot of friends slash family leaving the church due to cultural culture reasons. I think we touched on that a little bit today, but, we have a lot of people in our lives, a lot of who are either engaged in the church or are not or engaged with the church, but have different views on things or not, like, I think a good the church doesn't have to be the focal point of your relationship with these just knowing where they're at and where you're at, finding things apart from the church that you can relate on and that you can connect with, having fun together, playing like doing board games or I don't know, that's what we do on Sundays. Yeah, or just having fun together, I think is like start up, start with the friendship. the relationship as the baseline, like start there. and then if opportunities arise to share your testimony and and, tactful and loving way, then, then go for it. they ultimately know where you stand. So it's not like, yeah. And I'm not I'm not saying use that as an excuse to not bear testimony. The way you live your life is your testimony. And there are ways to vocally, like share your testimony. But I'm saying for the most part, people know where you stand on things and. You'll just be an example for them. I know that sounds so cliche, but it's true. It's true. Okay, this is from Woman Warrior with Christ on Instagram. do you have a belief of what causes same sex attraction? Oh, I, I do like I, I don't have strong feelings on this, but I kind of tend to believe just based on my personal experience. And there is research kind of coming out in this regard. We used to talk about there used to be a very black and white kind of way to frame it, like, are you born this way or did you develop it? And that was kind of an either or question. But I think those are both incomplete. I think you like I think you are maybe born with certain certain dispositions that draw you one way or the other, or like, have a impact on your sexual development. so it's kind of a both or like a yes. And, or it's, I think maybe, either way, it's unconscious, like it happens at such a young age and it's not within your control. And so it like, I don't think it's healthy to try and sort of control it. I don't know either. I guess what I'm saying is I think it's kind of a combination, but it is either way unconscious and, shouldn't be looked at as like we can channel our sexuality or like our sexual impulses. We can channel it in healthy directions. but there's sort of a difference between channeling it and seeking to control it or like in an unhealthy way, shape it into something that it's not like I am still attracted to guys, but we have been able to kind of channel my sort of my attractions into a fulfilling relationship with each other in a way that makes sense for us. And and that has been good and healthy. And I haven't, like, coerced myself or like put myself through conversion therapy or anything like that. But I've been able to channel it in a way that makes sense and works for both of us. Is that fair? Yeah. Okay, I think that's fair. It's hard to explain. It is. It's hard to. Yeah, it sounds so vague, it's hard to explain. And that's where I guess we'll leave it today. Just being ambiguous about our sex life. But, Yeah. Thank you for listening and for tuning in, to make it sound like we're a radio station. Thanks for tuning in to 99.9 Sky and Amanda. we will be back with an episode. Or I guess I will be back with an episode of, just me. we'll give that a shot and see how that goes. If I get tired of hearing myself talk. And. But we'll give that a shot. Otherwise, we'll see you in the next one. Yeah, I just kind of had this realization at how unbalanced this conversation is within the church. There are many resources, you know, a lot of, voices and a lot of content out there that is centered on LGBTQ issues. Within a latter day Saint context. But not a lot that I would feel comfortable sharing with someone I loved and putting my stamp of approval on it as something as a resource that was would promote faith and that would help people to live their covenants and point them to the Savior. that was kind of eye opening for me. I've always felt like this void was, was there this void of, unapologetically faith promoting LGBTQ, latter day Saint content? felt this void, and I have sought to do my best to add to that void. by no means do I feel like I am the only or the best voice to fill that void. but that has always been the at least the goal with the podcast is to create something that you would feel comfortable sharing with a family member, where you would feel confident that the message in whatever episode you you send them from the show would promote faith and would help your loved one to embrace their covenants and to move in a direction that was fully faith promoting. that is what we want to do.