Pivoting to Passion: The Journey into Brand Photography | Erica and Jon

Are you ready to transform your passion for photography into a thriving business? Discover how guests Erica and Jon pivoted from traditional jobs to a wedding photography business, and then from wedding photography to the world of brand photography. Hear their journey from corporate roles, through uncomfortable seasons, to building a niche brand photography portfolio. Their inspiring stories, practical advice, and insights are here to help you take your photography business to the next level.

Let's dive deeper into the astounding world of brand photography with Erica and John. They've worked with athletes, celebrities, and big-name clients, and they're here to share their transition from traditional wedding and portrait photography to branding photography. Learn about their experiences, the challenges they faced, and their unique insights. Also, uncover their secrets to breaking into brand photography and achieving a six-figure year. 

Finally, explore how brand photography has allowed Erica and John to truly express their passion and identity while creating a lifestyle that allows for flexibility and freedom. Hear how they built a successful business while homeschooling their kids, traveling, and living the life they always dreamed of. This episode is packed with inspiration and practical advice for anyone in the photography field. Join us on this journey, and let's transform your photography business together!

HIGHLIGHTS
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01:18 - Overview of the BOP
03:24 - BOP Byte: Faithfulness
06:25 - Erica & Jon join the BOP
13:14 - How Erica & Jon got into Photography
20:43 - Why Erica & Jon left the Wedding Industry 
26:30 - Why Brand Photography is More Lucrative than Weddings 
34:39 - Erica & Jon's Biggest Fanboy/Fangirl Moments
68:00 - A Free Resource for Brand Photographers

SHOW NOTES
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Erica and Jon's Quick Links:
• Free Branding Class: bop.square8studio.com/ericaandjon
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ericaandjon

Rob's Quick Links:
• FREE Download: 17 Ways to Generate Revenue - https://www.square8studio.com/17ways
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/square8studio

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

You're listening to the Bop the business of photography podcast with Rob Green, a photographer to contagiously positive clients and fierce believer in building people-focused businesses that leave a lasting impact. If you're an entrepreneur with dreams in your head, ideas in your heart and passions burning deep down in your soul, this is the perfect place to be, because this is where dreams come to thrive. So are you ready to build your business, wow your clients and make photo magic? Here's your host, rob Green.

Rob Greene: 0:43

Aww, coming at you from Fort Worth Texas. You are listening to Season 2, episode 1 of the Bop. So excited to be back with you again. Friends, if we have not met yet, just so you know, my name's Rob. I am a photographer and educator based out of Fort Worth, texas, and I am thrilled to be back with you for Season 2. This is actually kind of a surreal moment for me because as I'm recording this episode, I am also about to be tearing down this whole studio space as part of a move to another city here in Texas to try and get ready for all that's to come with that, and so I'm like going through this whole process of getting all my thoughts together and out onto the mic for you guys, while at the same time going man, I gotta tear all this down. This is about to get crazy. The next week of my life is gonna be nuts, but I'm so stoked to be able to share with you this first episode before we tear down and rebuild in time for Episode 2. It's gonna be great If you're tuning in with us for the first time today.

Rob Greene: 1:52

There's three things I want you to know. First, let me just say welcome. So glad you are here. There are so many different ways you could be spending your time and I'm thrilled you choose to spend some of it with me hanging out with my guests. You're just gonna get so much from this time together. We do not take your time for granted. Second, after you're done listening to today's episode, be sure and go back to Season 1 and check out some of those interviews as well, because, y'all, there's so much richness packed into those eight episodes from Season 1. And third, here's just a little snapshot for you of what the BOP is all about. The BOP stands for the business of photography and it's a podcast that's designed to anchor you to the reasons why you do what you do. It's a podcast designed to inspire you with a vision for what could be in your life and in your business. But y'all, most of all, it is a podcast designed to set you in action, to activate you inside your business, to leave you with a clearer picture of what to work on next in your business, because, y'all, inspiration by itself doesn't get you anywhere, but inspiration plus activation equals transformation. We've got an incredible interview in store for you guys today with my friends Erica and John, to kick off Season 2.

Rob Greene: 3:04

But before we jump in with those two, it's time for today's BOP Bites. If you're new with us, bop Bites are these little, bite-sized nuggets of goodness that, if you've only got a few minutes to listen to today, maybe you're on your way to class or work, you're sitting in the car in traffic. You just got a little bit of time. I want to make sure you have something to chew on throughout the rest of your week and then, hopefully, when you've got more time, you can come back and listen to the rest. So today's BOP Bite is this Faithfulness in the small things leads to readiness for the big things.

Rob Greene: 3:32

I'm going to say that again because this BOP Bite may have just smacked a few of you between the eyes. You're like, hey, come on, we just started here, why are you diving into the deep end? But yes, faithfulness in the small things leads to readiness for the big things. Y'all, it's easy to look at the person with the big following or the big booked out schedule or the killer website and think, yes, that that's big time. That's what I want. Give me more of that.

Rob Greene: 3:58

But, y'all, the problem is, if we're being honest, we're not always ready for that. Sometimes we're not ready for all that comes with a massive Instagram following because spoiler alert, it's not always rosy. Sometimes our client experience or our systems and our workflows behind the scenes are not ready to sustain a massive influx of bookings. In fact, some of you, if a huge rush of business came in the day, in your mind you may be thinking that sounds great, but the reality is, when all that business comes in, if you don't have the systems, you're going to wind up overwhelmed and burnt out as a result of all of it. And then sometimes our character just isn't ready for all that comes with the notoriety or the extra dollars sitting in our bank account.

Rob Greene: 4:40

And so if you're in a season that feels small right now and you're wanting more, you're wanting bigger. You're wanting the very best that you can possibly do with your life and your business. I just want to encourage you, friend. There's so much goodness to glean from this season. Stay faithful. You're cutting your teeth on some foundational principles right now in your business that are preparing you for what's to come. The time you're spending right now learning how to design a website or build your email list, or figure out what the heck reels are, or setting up a separate bank account for your business or photographing family members, because that's the only people that'll let you practice on them. Y'all these are not wasted moments. These are faithfulness moments, and if you'll just remain faithful to the little things that are right there in front of you right now, when success comes your way later you're going to be ready for it.

Rob Greene: 5:35

That's it for today's Bop Byte. When we come back, my friends Eric and John will join the show to tell you all about why they walked away from the wedding industry and why it might be time for you to do the same, or maybe not. Here's one thing I know you'll have a much clearer idea of whether that move is for you after listening to these two share their hearts. We'll be right back. You know what no photographer ever asks how can I make less money? As small business owners, we're always looking to make just a little bit more, and most of us just need someone to show us how. What if I told you college and sorority photography could give you not one, not two, but 17 different ways to make more money in the months ahead? To download my free guide, visit square8studiocom. Slash 17ways today. Welcome back.

Rob Greene: 6:27

I am thrilled to kick off season two with today's guests because these two have blown my mind from the moment I met them this past spring. If this is your first time listening to the show, you need to know I'm a huge believer that it's always a good idea to decide who you're going to be before you decide what you're going to do. And you all today's guests are amazing people. They're like the poster couple for that. You know, captain of the football team meets Disney princess romance that everybody dreams about. You know they've got this energy and enthusiasm for life and they don't shy away from making difficult choices for the sake of long term growth and, as we'll hear more about as this interview goes on, doing the totally counter cultural thing in photography world and walking away from the wedding industry.

Rob Greene: 7:11

So you guys, if you sit down with them for even just a few minutes, you're going to learn that they just believe fiercely in the potential within each and every person. So I'm so excited to have them on the show. They just live with such a sweet sincerity of heart that really shines through in every conversation, whether it's from the stage or across the dinner table and y'all. I was so impressed getting the C firsthand how these two parent, because they have managed to orient their life and their business in a way that allows them to be present and available for their kids while also running a wildly successful business. Basically, these two are pretty much living legends, so it's my privilege to welcome to the bop Erica and John. How are you friends?

Erica Hayes: 7:51

Oh my gosh man, what a good intro, thank you, that was like the kindest thing I've ever heard someone say.

Jon Hayes: 7:57

If we ever write a book, I'm going to have Rob write the forward.

Erica Hayes: 7:59

I know I missed the time that you were playing football Like, were you guys? Yeah, that's just it, if there's only one correction it's I actually played.

Jon Hayes: 8:07

No, that's not true. I played one sport growing up. I was on the basketball team. I got put on academic probation and they made me serve popcorn at the games in uniform. So that was my claim to fame in the sports world, but I'll take the captain of the football team.

Erica Hayes: 8:20

I know I was like, wow, Rob knows something that I don't know.

Rob Greene: 8:24

Amazing John, could you dunk a basketball? Absolutely not Same Same, no hesitation, I can't do it the same way.

Jon Hayes: 8:33

Absolutely not. But, man, we're so excited to be here and again, thank you for all of those very kind words. I hope we can live up to a bit of that, but also just super excited to be here with your community and bring value during this time together. That's what we're all about. We want to. The life goal, the business goal, everything that we have is to make a positive impact on others. So thanks for the opportunity to come and share with your audience and hopefully make a positive impact on them.

Rob Greene: 9:00

Absolutely, man, so stoked to have y'all here. I know I've said a few things about you guys, but you gotta know one of my favorite things to do when we have husband and wife duos come on the show is let y'all introduce each other by sharing what you love most about each other. So we did this with James and Jess in season one, back in episode three, and then we closed out season one letting Amy and Jordan do the same, and these are just such a sweet little moment to watch. You guys get all ouchie-goo-chee over each other, so feel free to make each other blush. I'm just gonna shut up now and let y'all take the wheel.

Erica Hayes: 9:30

Okay well, I'm gonna let you go first, I get to go first, all right perfect.

Jon Hayes: 9:33

Well, I would like to introduce you all to my beautiful wife, erica. Erica is she is a dedicated, driven person and also very stubborn, in the best way possible. Stubborn to the point of me having to pursue her heart for four or five years before I finally beat out all the other boys and she decided she'd give me a chance. So a well-fought battle, and I get to live every day by her side, so grateful that I came out with it If I got one trophy, that was the trophy I got.

Jon Hayes: 10:09

The best one I could, but Erica is a driven, compassionate, beautiful woman inside and out. We would not be where we are today, I would say, as a couple, as parents or as business owners, if it weren't for the strong drive, the belief that she has in us and in me as her husband and as a man. So if you're looking for a woman who embodies just absolute relentless faith and driven motivation, paired with care and compassion and a true heart to just make a positive impact on the world, then this is my lovely, beautiful wife, erica.

Erica Hayes: 10:51

Well, nobody prepared me that I'd possibly need to bring tissues to your podcast, rob. Last time we were hanging out we were cracking up at dinner, so this is taking a wild turn. But thank you very much for that. That was very nice and I would like to introduce you to my husband, the captain of our home.

Erica Hayes: 11:16

This is John. He's our family leader and I just like the overall thing to say is that he is a strong leader for our family, and not just our family, but now for our business and our lives and just stepping into taking us just through all the journeys that we're on, he's the life of the party. Anytime it's a photo shoot, if whatever it is, this guy's the life of the party In a small setting. He has so many hidden talents that he will keep to himself, but he's extremely talented, extremely successful in the things that he set his mind to, and I think that's just the thing is where he has a, where there's a will, there's a way and he has a will to doing so many things, doing them while figuring them out and just finding a way to accomplish anything that he sets his mind to. But that's him in a work kind of setting, but as a parent, he's the greatest dad to our kids.

Erica Hayes: 12:17

Like I, as a little girl, I always just like wished I would and I prayed like I have to marry someone like my dad who is involved in my sister and I and our lives and just leads our family, has fun with us, is a helper around the house. This is the guy. He changed our son's very first diaper. I didn't even in the hospital, it was this guy. So it just goes to show that he has not only a hand and like helping in the business things and making everything work, but also in our household and in our kids' lives. This is the guy right here who's just involved in it all and not wanting to miss out on all the important things for our kids and our family, and I just I love and appreciate that so much.

Jon Hayes: 12:59

Wow, I feel like a million bucks. Is this the end of the podcast? Because between Rob and you and Eric I'm like I think I'm ready to go take on the world.

Rob Greene: 13:08

That's it y'all. Go have a date night now and enjoy.

Speaker 1: 13:11

Perfect.

Rob Greene: 13:12

Oh man Well. So I'm curious because I know a lot of our listeners this may be their first time connecting with you guys, so I'd love to hear just a little bit about what prompted you guys to first pick up a camera. How did y'all get into the photography business to start with?

Erica Hayes: 13:28

Yeah well, there was a camera glued to my hands from the time I was like eight years old and it was a disposable camera, kodiak, like the yellow wrapping. I had to save up my allowances to like have all my film exposed. I always had a camera in my hands, but I really fell in love with it in high school when I did photography classes and got into the dark room and got into that side of photography. But it was when we were having our son. I was just like I don't want to work a standard job, like I want to be home, but I just have this creative itch to like just do something and to also get out of the house every now and then. Still like fulfill and chase something of me, not as a mom, but also just like me, and what I love is Erica.

Jon Hayes: 14:14

Well, cause we had kids. We got married really young and we had babies right away. Like if you asked us what is life supposed to look like?

Speaker 1: 14:21

it's like apparently you get married young and have babies right away. I don't know why.

Jon Hayes: 14:24

That was like our default. Thinking like this is what we do. And so we were married at 20.

Erica Hayes: 14:28

20,. I was 20, you were 22.

Jon Hayes: 14:30

22, and then we had our son. Our son the very next year, yeah. So it was like boom, boom, things were happening fast, yeah, but I loved the camera.

Erica Hayes: 14:38

And then, of course, we had a son and I'm like I can do this and I saw a friend who was doing it and I'm like I could do this. I've never thought of doing this like as a business, because I've not ever had business modeled for me, but like I just want to do this. It was just like that itch to just do something for myself, be able to work for myself.

Erica Hayes: 14:56

And then this guy came into the picture because he was not in the picture at the beginning. He was selling tractors and working on corporate job tractors. Yeah, my transition into photography Tractors, it's a very natural.

Jon Hayes: 15:06

I think you hear most photographers say this. So I used to be. I like to call this version of myself cowboy John, so I used to wear a pearl snap, ariette shirts and Ariette jeans and cowboy boots Absolutely.

Erica Hayes: 15:19

He did, Rob. I should have came prepared with pictures. I would love to do a show and tell of this era.

Jon Hayes: 15:25

Hey, you would have thrown me out there in like the cattle pasture in Texas. I would have fit right in. You know, it was like that was what I had going on. I sold tractors. I sold yellow caterpillar tractors and that was my life. I was a mid-20s cat salesperson, thought that my career trajectory was climbing the corporate ladder. I had my blackberry on my belt, buckle holster, I mean I was ready and rocking, just gonna take over the world. And Erica asked me to step into photography with her and do some stuff and I found no, but I'll help you run the business, cause she didn't want to run the business side of things. So I came alongside in the early years and was like deciding stuff for you, putting together your mini sessions. I remember specifically first mini session season. She's like this is a great idea, I run with it. What do we do? Like $25 mini sessions or something.

Erica Hayes: 16:14

I think I did $25.

Jon Hayes: 16:15

And we were so pumped, we were like yes, you probably got 50 pictures for the $25.

Jon Hayes: 16:21

But it was then we moved. We made a big life move. We moved to the Pacific Northwest, changed up life. I literally went up to the Northwest, to Washington state, with Erica's dad on a Friday. We looked around Friday, Saturdays, came home Sunday, listed our house on Monday, had it sold in a week and we just moved. We were like let's just go somewhere new. Erica's first time in Washington was when the plane touched down and I showed her the awesome rental house I found first.

Erica Hayes: 16:46

Side note I don't ever recommend doing that. When you've grown up as an Arizona native and you are used to sunshine every day of your life. Don't pack up and move to the Pacific Northwest. Just don't do it.

Jon Hayes: 16:58

And I didn't have a job. I had nothing, but we were like we're going to make it work. So I got a job for a caterpillar there and so on tractors. But it was such a miserable experience for me. I went from one of the best cat dealers in the nation in Arizona to an organization that seemed like they're 10, 15 years back in time. My joke there all the time was if they could have taken your credit card on a carbon copy machine or you swiped the thing, they would have gladly done that. They're probably kicking the card reader going darn technology. And so I just really didn't like what was going on. I would get in trouble for selling too many tractors. It was just very I didn't understand what was happening and so I had this great, I'm like Eric, I'm going to start a business. I'm going to quit my job. She's like cool, what's the plan? I'm like landscaping.

Speaker 1: 17:41

She's like.

Jon Hayes: 17:42

I think, what if you grabbed a camera and we did this photography thing together? What's really cool? That season of life? We only lived there in the Northwest for two years. We ended up going into business together with the photography business. I quit my job, we moved back to Arizona. We could be here for hours telling you the whole story. The cool thing is you could very easily, I think, look at that story and say why the heck did you move to Washington? And I fully think the only reason we did something so crazy and then moved back was because if we would have stayed in Arizona I would have never been. I was comfortable enough with my job that I never felt the pressure point to try and do something drastic and different. But I was so miserable in that season that I was like enough's enough.

Jon Hayes: 18:24

I don't care if it's crazy. Let me quit my job where, as a 20-something-year-old, I'm making a six-figure income, I get a company truck, I've got a company phone, my job's to take people to lunch and dinner or else I get in trouble. Sounds like a dream job. I felt chained instead and we finally were like we're going to step away from that, we're going to risk it all, we're going to go after this crazy thing. And that was really the beginning of the rest of our lives.

Erica Hayes: 18:47

That's when I handed him a camera and he said where's the on button?

Jon Hayes: 18:51

I turned this thing on.

Erica Hayes: 18:53

We just started from there.

Rob Greene: 18:56

It's amazing to me how, so many times, it's those uncomfortable seasons of life that are necessary, for they're like the catalyst for the change that we most need to make.

Jon Hayes: 19:10

And it's like here's I tell people this all the time is everybody wants a next level success In no matter what it is. Maybe it's selling tractors for Caterpillar. That's the dream, like it was for me, like next level success. Maybe you want to own the company. Here's what holds everybody back from that. In my opinion, every single use case you can imagine is day one. And for the photographers listening, like remember day one you had your first client. Maybe it was even someone you shot for free, but this was brand new. You're triple quadruple checking your gear before you go out the door. You're showing up with butterflies in your stomach. You feel nervous. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna puke. What if I forget everything? What if they see right through me? They're gonna know I'm an imposter. You're checking your Apple Watch for your posing inspiration, like just to make sure.

Erica Hayes: 19:55

That was my trick.

Jon Hayes: 19:56

That was a trick and it's like you do all that and then you go home and you take the photos and you're like, oh my gosh, it feels terrible, right. But then after a season you start to grow in your comfort and your confidence. Then pretty soon before you know it, you're head out the door. You're not even checking your gear, you're showing up, you're running through the poses, you know what's going on, you know what's gonna happen and you get some moderate success and then most people they grow to this level and they wanna go up here. But what happens is they're comfortable enough right here that they're not willing to go back to the feeling of ew. For this next level growth, I have to feel all of those things all over again, like to risk it in a new way. To grow to the next level, I have to go back to stomach feels and butterflies. I'm gonna puke. Oh my gosh, that's what holds most people back.

Rob Greene: 20:41

And that's exactly what you guys wound up doing, because you built a lot of success following the typical path that a lot of us follow, with portraits and weddings and all the cute photos for people. And yet I mentioned this in the intro you guys did something pretty shocking in the photography world. You just said we're going back to the butterflies, we're going back to that discomfort, and you walked away from that. Why, what brought that on and what did you run to in the process?

Jon Hayes: 21:13

I think for me, I think for both of us a lot of the initial attraction to that model, which is great, right. A lot of people find success in that model, find a lot of fulfillment in that model. That's fantastic. The reason we followed that is we saw that it was proven that there was opportunity for success, and we had a path that we could follow to create that success for ourselves. Right, so it was like a proven roadmap that we could just follow, step by step, and hopefully see similar success, and so, for us, it was like okay, have camera, want to make money, this is the direction you have to go, almost right. What happened, though, is like I was wearing bow ties and chinos and like dress shoes, because I thought that's how I had to dress.

Rob Greene: 22:00

So you at least did the pearl snapshirts. Yeah, oh yeah, we did hard pivot.

Jon Hayes: 22:04

This was from cowboy John to I don't even know, preppy John. I guess I don't even know what you call it.

Erica Hayes: 22:10

I was wearing like people's. It was wedding photographer John. It was just like we put on this hat, like we have to look like wedding photographers, and brides like pinks and they like flowers. You wore pink dresses and Erica doesn't even like pink. He's my least favorite color.

Jon Hayes: 22:21

We sat down with our graphic designer a friend of ours, and we legit told him this Rob. We said all right, why don't you take our initials E and J? We want you to design this in a way that it looks like it could be monogrammed on a luxury hotel bathrobe.

Rob Greene: 22:36

All right, that's what we want, also our brand color inspiration.

Jon Hayes: 22:41

Take a look at this picture of a succulent. I want you to pull all of the colors out of the succulent, and that's what we're going for. And it was just like it wasn't really authentic to us in a new way because the way you'd find me is in like gym shorts and a T-shirt, you know, and so it very much felt like we were doing what we felt like we had to in order to find success, but it didn't feel authentic to us.

Erica Hayes: 23:02

Yeah, but like you said too, like, why did we find ourselves making such a drastic change? It's because, for one, we didn't feel us Like. We were constantly living like, okay, we'll say this, we'll post this, we'll do this because this will equal success, which?

Jon Hayes: 23:17

that's so gross. You use the word swoon, I did and we were like. After she did, we were like what does that even mean? We need to look it up I was like I don't know how to swoon. I don't know how to swoon.

Erica Hayes: 23:27

I don't know how to swoon over an image and I think I'm supposed to, but, like for me, I just want to get an awesome shot. And so we had a lot of stuff happening behind the scenes where we were getting a lot of attraction from brands and businesses. We just had no idea like why, but we kept taking it because we needed to make money.

Jon Hayes: 23:45

We didn't even know what to call it.

Erica Hayes: 23:46

No, we didn't, we were like business pictures I honestly had a folder that it was just like business names and people, because I was like I don't know, I don't know where they fit. This is not engagements, this is not weddings. But it just became more and more of like inquiries that we were getting and we hadn't even really been showing the work and we were just like what if we showed the work?

Erica Hayes: 24:04

Because, John looked at the numbers and it's like we were making this much serving those businesses and people. But, like down here, weddings were fading and I loved it because I didn't want the wedding day feel, Especially because it wasn't just like the inauthentic, inauthentic what am I trying to say? Oh, that's a hard word.

Jon Hayes: 24:22

It wasn't just the fact that we weren't being the authentic version of ourselves.

Jon Hayes: 24:26

It was also that we, unlike a lot of others, we started our business after we had kids, and so the whole reason we started our own business is we wanted freedom, we wanted flexibility, we wanted time with our kids, we wanted to be more hands-on and raising our kids. I hated leaving every day to go sell tractors for somebody else, and especially in that season when we lived in Washington, I'd leave in the dark and come home in the dark and it was just like ugh. And so we would find ourselves even after we moved back to Arizona and really started the business. We would be gone almost all weeknights and weekends shooting because we were crazy busy.

Erica Hayes: 25:04

And we were crushing it. I mean we had families four to five nights a week.

Jon Hayes: 25:07

That's pretty great for a portrait, but we had like a full-time almost nanny who was doing homework with our kids and feeding our kids, and we'd come home just in time for bedtime. And I'll never forget the first time we had to tell our son Brody as what was he like?

Erica Hayes: 25:20

six seven, six or seven.

Jon Hayes: 25:22

Like hey, bud, I know this is championship weekend for your soccer, but mom and dad aren't gonna be able to make the game.

Jon Hayes: 25:30

And that was just that. We you wanna talk about a sick feeling in your stomach Hated that, and we left that day driving to the shoot, thankful for the opportunity we had to serve, but just saying we are never doing this again. This cannot happen again. We can't tell our kids, no, for the sake of someone else, that's not what we set out to design. And so what we found with these brands that we're inquiring with us is well, wait a second. They want us to come work on a Tuesday from 10 to two. That works.

Erica Hayes: 25:59

Yeah, I like that.

Jon Hayes: 26:01

Nobody's asking us to come on a Saturday from like 2 pm to 11 at night, Like wow this is pretty cool, and so I think that factored a huge role in for us being able to go like oh my gosh, we set out to create a lifestyle of freedom and flexibility. This really allows us to have a ton of that, because we're working Monday through Friday during normal hours and we're not having to sacrifice the things that you know, we felt were our, and we know are our highest priorities.

Rob Greene: 26:29

Now I'm curious because I feel like branding photography is one of these things that starting to enter into the conversation for people a little bit more now, largely in part to people like y'all that are leading the charge on that, but it still feels a little bit ambiguous. Like, tell me, what is branding photography? Is it just simply taking all those senior photos and doing them for people with whatever their craft is in their hands? Is it going into a natural light studio and just snapping some pictures of people on a couch that they don't really own? Like what is it? And then secondly, like how is it possibly even remotely as lucrative as weddings, because I think that's a hard thing for a lot of people to wrap their mind around Weddings, like you said, there's a proven roadmap to how that is so lucrative, but you guys are finding a similar kind of success, and even greater success in a lot of ways, with something that's totally different. So, yeah, what is it? And how in the world is it that lucrative?

Jon Hayes: 27:31

So, yeah, the word brand photography is kind of like a recent, within the last handful of years term. That's now a buzzword. Right Before it was like you have your wedding photographers, your lifestyle photographers and commercial photographers, and totally not a fair stereotype. I get it, stereotypes usually aren't fair but when I thought of commercial photography I would kind of think more like Hollywood studio union type setup, right when it was kind of like I'm here, I have my camera, this is my tool, I touch nothing else, I do nothing else, I'm taking photos and it's a big deal, like it's just gonna go on a billboard or something right.

Jon Hayes: 28:08

And so I think with the advent of the internet and internet advertising and online e-commerce, all of that stuff took advertising from a place where it was like if you were a company any company you wanted eyeballs, you had to do some sort of print collateral campaign, whether that was in a magazine or newspaper or billboards, and typically there's a lot of dollars behind that, so there is a cost barrier for small businesses to be able to take part of that. So it was like large businesses are gonna gobble up that advertising market. Small players, we don't have the funds for it. Well, with online advertising, with e-commerce, with everyone needing to represent what they do, what they sell, the product service, with visuals and with the cost to actually publish those visuals coming way, way down. I mean, the difference between a billboard and Times Square or spending a thousand bucks on some ads online is ridiculous, right?

Jon Hayes: 29:02

And so now every mom and pop, corner store, lifestyle brand, personal influencer, everything needs content to be on the biggest marketplace there is which is online, and so that really leveled the playing field and opened up a ton of opportunity. For now it's not just these high level, huge commercial opportunities, it's also the mom lifestyle influencer next door that needs content for her blog and for her social media. And so that's where I think, if you're gonna separate the terms, I think they're all in the same world Commercials, just maybe more refined, higher end, larger projects, branding's more like hey, smaller budget, smaller level of production, but still both have the same goal in mind. And this is brand photography in a nutshell, it's a brand telling their unique story to attract their ideal client period, and we do that through imagery.

Rob Greene: 29:54

And so, whether it's a product, can you say that one more time for the folks listening, so they don't have to like pause and rewind it?

Jon Hayes: 29:59

Absolutely, and I hope I say it the same way, because I made it up it's a brand telling their unique story, their unique message to their ideal client through imagery. That's it, and so it's whether it's a product, whether it's a service. I mean here's, here's the cool thing about brand photography is it lets people know oh my gosh, there's this thing that solves all my problems, or this thing I really want, or this thing I've been looking for this bookcase behind me that doubles as a Murphy bed that I imagined in my head one night existed, and then I was like, oh my gosh, I found it online right.

Jon Hayes: 30:30

So that's what brand photography does, and our job as brand photographers is to tell a brand's story through imagery. That is what our goal is to do. So when you ask what type of brand photography do we do, we say yes, like we do all of it. We do high level commercial jobs, we do personal brand influencers, we do products for local shops, we do professional sports teams. Photos are products that you'll see in the IELTS grocery store because, at the end of the day, it's all taking that brand's unique story and just showcasing it through imagery.

Erica Hayes: 31:01

So not quite taking your senior and then just taking photos like that for a personal brand, because the senior that's like a once in a lifetime thing, that's like the highlight of their year. But when you're working with a business, you gotta understand, like, what's going on behind the business and all the kinds of things that you wanna capture in pictures so that their pictures ultimately do the end goal that everybody wants them to do, which is to sell for them. So, yes, you got some awesome camera skills, but it just goes to a next level when you're working with businesses and with brands.

Jon Hayes: 31:32

Yeah, and in terms of the question of how lucrative is it, it's insanely lucrative. Here's the biggest differentiator we like to pull out Is one of the reasons wedding photography, lifestyle photography, senior photography, any of those things is lucrative in and of itself is because it pulls on the emotional heartstrings. Right, this is the bride's big wedding day. Hey, father of the bride, you know like come on, it's your baby girl. You raised her for however many years, this is her big day, isn't she worth?

Speaker 1: 32:03

the platinum package right.

Jon Hayes: 32:04

Like is your baby girl only worth just enough?

Speaker 1: 32:08

You give her just enough back.

Jon Hayes: 32:09

So you get to pull on those emotional heartstrings for the seniors right it's like, let's commemorate this special occasion and all your accomplishments in this season of life and you're going out into the world now. Like, let's remember these moments, remember your friends, remember this season. Yeah, take my money, capture this for me. I want to be able to see and relive and feel this. All of that has very real value, right, the value is just emotional value. Like if I walked into a stranger's house and saw their wedding portrait on the wall, I would go like, oh, nice pic, but it wouldn't be very valuable to me. It would be valuable to that family, that couple, their family, because they were taking part in that day, they love them, they have an emotional connection.

Erica Hayes: 32:48

Yeah, yeah, but it's different when you you know, like I said, the end goal for the branding images that you create, those have an entirely different meaning and it's not emotional, and so that's where it does come in to be so much more lucrative, because you have a different selling point for your images and different things that all come with that territory.

Jon Hayes: 33:06

Right. So, for example, with brand images, you're trying to help increase brand awareness, which increases sales, which increases revenue. So now we're talking a totally different way of thinking about the transaction from client to photographer. And if your goal, if you're telling me, like Rob, you come to me and you're like man, I really wanna do this big photo project. And my goal with this is I wanna launch this thing and make like $500,000. I'm like cool, if my photos are the thing that enable you to make that 500K, how valuable are those photos Like?

Jon Hayes: 33:39

Think about brands that take images and put them on a billboard and how many eyeballs go past that billboard all day long. That might go like, oh my gosh, I didn't know somebody existed in my area that did this thing. That picture is incredibly valuable and what we do in Brand Thetare is we don't charge based on necessarily just a sitting fee or like a creative rate. We also charge based on the value, the marketing value of that photo and how many eyeballs it has the potential to get in front of and, in turn, what kind of sales results that could equal for the client.

Rob Greene: 34:14

I have a feeling there's some people listening to y'all say this right now, and it's not just like light bulbs going off, it's like fireworks, like what I can do what, and it's worth how much.

Rob Greene: 34:25

It's how many people Like this is probably just blowing some minds right now. So before we get into more just kind of the nuts and bolts of all this, I just wanna have a human moment here because I know y'all have gotten to work with some pretty cool people, like I think, the first one I ever heard about when I heard about you guys with the Chicago White Sox. So I'm just dying to know human moment here. Let's be real, of all the people you've worked with, what were your biggest fanboy or fangirl moments that each of you guys had along the way? Then?

Jon Hayes: 34:52

you wanna take?

Erica Hayes: 34:52

this one first, I mean I know, I have two instantly that just come to my mind, which is one of the Chicago White Sox. Like, I grew up a baseball fan for the Arizona Diamondbacks. Either way, I was like a baseball team. Like what are we talking?

Speaker 1: 35:05

about here. I still shoot weddings. I don't understand this.

Erica Hayes: 35:07

So getting to shoot for them, that was just like stars in like my eyes. I remember we were out there on the field in Arizona during spring training, taking all the flat lays of all the stuff that was gonna be in their marketing or merchandise store and they said, all right, guys, the players are done with practice, they're coming out. And I was like, okay, I don't know these people, this is okay, I'm just gonna handle them like they're people. I'm a person, they're a person.

Speaker 1: 35:32

But the lady our contact, she goes.

Erica Hayes: 35:34

Oh my gosh, here comes Tim Anderson. He's the all star and I'm like cool, I got this.

Jon Hayes: 35:40

Yeah, their marketing director was fan girling.

Speaker 1: 35:44

Yeah, she was fan girling.

Jon Hayes: 35:46

She's like can't believe he's coming, we're like I can't believe he's coming either.

Erica Hayes: 35:50

At the same time I was like I don't know who he is. So, while it was like fan girl moment, I was also able to handle it because I'm like he doesn't know me, like, truthfully, I don't know him. We introduced ourselves, his little girl came in for a couple photos and that was just. It was just so cool because we instantly became White Sox fans.

Jon Hayes: 36:10

So then we watch, we watch religiously now, and it's like every time we what a visible team to be a fan of too.

Erica Hayes: 36:15

Oh yeah, they're not doing so hard right now but, like every time they come on the screen, we're like guys look like Brody Paisley, you know to our kids.

Jon Hayes: 36:22

We're like we took pictures of him and I just think that is for me, it's one of my biggest highlights, along with I don't know what you're gonna share, but yeah, for me, we've been long time photo partners for Chris Powell and for Heidi Powell and I think you know their claim to fame was extreme weight loss on ABC and just the lives that they impacted through that and I think you know that initially was just such a cool thing to like. I watch you on TV and now I'm taking photos of you.

Erica Hayes: 36:54

Yeah, like during college, I would watch extreme weight loss and I'm like, oh my gosh, chris is now bringing his wife on the show. Like, look, john, like that's apparently Chris's wife.

Jon Hayes: 37:02

But I just remember walking up and meeting them for the first time and giving the dude a hug and I'm just like, wow, there's a lot of muscles here.

Erica Hayes: 37:12

You can't wrap your arms around him, but you know what I think.

Jon Hayes: 37:14

If there's one thing we found consistent across everyone, we've been able to work with every brand, every person of influence, celebrity, status, whatever. It's just been everybody's human, everybody's human. Nobody really wants to be freaked out over. They just kind of want to be respected as the like just as John, or as Rob or as Erica, like just I'm Tim. Anderson was like, yeah, I'm Tim.

Erica Hayes: 37:40

Chris.

Jon Hayes: 37:40

Powell was like hey, what's up? Guys, I'm Chris, can I get you a?

Erica Hayes: 37:43

drink. Yeah, he's like, can I get you anything to eat? Like, do you need a drink? I was like I probably do need to eat, but I am way too nervous right now, like we're good, let's just get to shooting.

Jon Hayes: 37:51

So everybody's just human. I think we make up in our heads like this idea that life has to look so different, or they must like not have problems, or whatever. It's like everybody's just human.

Speaker 1: 38:01

And.

Jon Hayes: 38:02

I think that's been the most freeing thing for us is that we've had opportunities to work with people of influence is just being like it eliminates the whole like nerve factor because you're just like, yeah, that's just a person who woke up and put their pants on the same way I did today and it really like doesn't take away from the wow, this is so cool, but it does help eliminate like the nerves of that opportunity.

Erica Hayes: 38:23

Well, and I just had something come to me I'm like I'm gonna just share it in case someone's listening that this could be helpful for. But we had the opportunity to also work with the late day policy and that again was an opportunity where I was like I don't understand what's happening and you get in your head so often of like I need to do bit better, I need to present myself in a different way. I need to do more as the photographer to impress these people or to, like, make it the greatest and the best experience. But I remember when we had the opportunity to work with him, we were just, we were blown away and we were like, okay, we give everybody a client gift.

Erica Hayes: 38:59

Like let's, of course, give Dave a client gift, and old Erica would have been like, well, should we get more? Should we add more to this gift? Like, should we try to make it more special? Should we try to make it more flashy? Like we're talking about Dave Hollis here, like this is crazy. And we're like no, like we're proud that we send out these Yeti mugs and, yes, it has our logo on it and I'm sure we could go get a gift card and add it and we could spice it up.

Rob Greene: 39:24

Does the logo have your initials monogrammed on it?

Jon Hayes: 39:28

No, not those initials, not the word initials.

Erica Hayes: 39:32

I was trying to see if we had it anywhere. No, not those initials, but it does have just an E and a J, just real slim and a little small, so it is branded to us. But I just remember after he got that, the next time we saw him he said, hey, I gotta tell you the tape on that box. That's awesome. I was like he was impressed by the packaging we gave him the gift in, like it was just a little deep, like we have our logo on tape you can get. I don't know, ask us later. We'll tell you where we get the. I don't remember what business it is.

Erica Hayes: 40:06

But it's like we have our logo on the tape and it goes around the box. It's like that's what he picked up on.

Erica Hayes: 40:10

It was just like it's such a small thing that he thought was cool, that impressed him. Like the gift inside was kind of like the bonus. It just made me think like wow, we gave our best and like he's impressed with, like that was right on the box and that just felt really cool, that like we didn't and never have had to do more to try and attract bigger or better. It's just like being us and doing what we do and doing it in the best heart has. Just you know, it has always come through for us, no matter who we were working for.

Jon Hayes: 40:38

And just one shout out that I wanna, just I'm gonna speak this hopefully into existence is what Erica really wants to say during this question of who has she fangirled over that we've shot.

Speaker 1: 40:50

I don't know where she's going with this.

Jon Hayes: 40:51

We're just gonna speak into existence that one day she's gonna get to say that she took photos for Thomas Rhett yes, in his family, the country singer. He actually has a place down here where we live now and we're just hoping our paths cross because, number one fangirl. Actually sorry, thomas, it's more of your wife that she really likes.

Erica Hayes: 41:10

She's just so love her. She's just amazing. We're hoping to add that one to the four of us. So hopefully next time we do this, Rob, I'll be able to say we did photos for Thomas Rhett in his family.

Rob Greene: 41:19

Amazing. And if anybody's listening and knows Thomas and his wife and wants to make the connection, shoot us an email, drop us a line, let's make that, yes, I love it.

Erica Hayes: 41:28

This will be amazing.

Rob Greene: 41:31

While we're having a little fun here, I know you guys have gotten to do a lot of traveling to different places around the country for work. Out of all the places you've gotten to go, what's been some of your top cities you've been to and like the must eat food stops, Cause I'm a foodie so I'm dying to know what are some of the must eat food stops in these cities y'all like to go to.

Jon Hayes: 41:50

So first number one on the list is Hands Down Chicago. And listen, chicago's just an amazing city. It's a beautiful place, it's so walkable. I also know I'm biased to this, because when we got to go to Chicago for the first time, it was to shoot for the socks. This was also the first getaway Erica and I had had in eight years of marriage where we got to go away somewhere, just the two of us you might be love. Chicago.

Speaker 1: 42:17

So I'm slightly biased, I think it made it even more magical cause.

Jon Hayes: 42:20

I was like, wow Chicago, wow my wife.

Erica Hayes: 42:23

Like this is amazing.

Jon Hayes: 42:24

We have uninterrupted conversations. I love this, but we went full send on the Chicago experience. As two people who really didn't grow up in a like big city like that, we were like let's go. We ended up staying at a loft with the physical trainer from the socks and his family and we were like we're not renting a car, we're going to take the L everywhere we go. And I will never forget walking through the underground subway being like there's a subway sandwich shop in the subway Like oh my gosh, there's a subway, there's a-.

Rob Greene: 42:57

There's a subway, there's a Dunkin'.

Jon Hayes: 42:59

Donuts down here too. What is this stuff? And I'll tell you I can picture it. It's like I was in my own sitcom you remember the show Felicity Like that girl had the crazy, like tons of tight curl hair. We walk up out of the subway, I look across this busy intersection and there's our host, the wife of the trainer for those socks. She's holding Dunkin' Donuts coffee and her hair's just blowing in the wind. She's got hair like Felicity and like taxis are honking. And I'm like I'm in my own sitcom.

Erica Hayes: 43:27

This is a man. This is exactly what it looks like in a TV show.

Jon Hayes: 43:32

But it was Chicago's just got a special place of our heart for sure, Best place to eat there. We love the London House rooftop.

Speaker 1: 43:40

It sounds super bougie and super fancy.

Jon Hayes: 43:43

It's actually really approachable, but it's rooftop, beautiful view, overlooking whatever. That river is the big one and you're up top. It's just, it's gorgeous. You get to overlook the whole city and that's always on our list of places to stop, yeah hands down Chicago, but also the place we now call home.

Erica Hayes: 44:03

Before we moved here to 38 here in Florida, it's in the panhandle. I'm still learning all about Florida, so I feel like kind of a nerd. But before we moved here we actually traveled here for a photo shoot for.

Speaker 1: 44:15

Isagenix.

Erica Hayes: 44:16

And we experienced some of the amazing places to eat here. So definitely 38 is one of our top spots and if you come, you got to eat it the citizen and also Le Creme.

Jon Hayes: 44:28

Le Creme is top us. You know what I'm talking about, when it's like you order lots of small plates and they just keep bringing food throughout the whole experience.

Erica Hayes: 44:35

Yes, and they have the best chocolate fondue for dessert at the end. And it's just, it's so good.

Jon Hayes: 44:42

Like Erica had a thing for whoever's listening, this might benefit.

Jon Hayes: 44:45

I'm going to jump in here with one, two, If you're listening and you've not had Topos before don't go in thinking, oh, this is great because the plates are only like nine bucks, because you're going to order like a hundred nine dollar plates and then you're going to get the bill and be like how did that happen? Cause every time you're just like, oh yeah, bring another Brussels sprouts. Yeah, it's only nine bucks. And then you get the bill and you're like, whoa, I didn't know that could add up to that. So that's personal learning experience of shocking off after.

Erica Hayes: 45:12

Or there's some takeaways, take away for your business. How can you add that strategy?

Speaker 1: 45:17

into your business Genius.

Erica Hayes: 45:20

Yeah, but definitely here. And then another top spot Santa Barbara, Santa. Barbara was one of our favorite places to travel to you actually mentioned James and Jess at the beginning of this time.

Jon Hayes: 45:31

Together we went to Santa Barbara and we worked with them. We also went another time with Isagenix and that was cool, working on a sailboat in Santa Barbara, shooting Isagenix.

Speaker 1: 45:40

Yeah, come on. Yeah, that was pretty awesome.

Erica Hayes: 45:43

There's a.

Jon Hayes: 45:43

Mexican place there, something de maize, floor de maize.

Erica Hayes: 45:48

Floor de maize.

Jon Hayes: 45:50

Amazing Mexican food right up near the water.

Rob Greene: 45:53

Yeah, you can sit outside next to the water Did it leave you floored and amazed.

Erica Hayes: 45:57

Oh, that is good, that's really good.

Jon Hayes: 46:00

I'll tell you this Erica, like I'm a total foodie, erica's not so much. She's kind of like where can I get the most plain thing ever?

Erica Hayes: 46:07

Not plain, just safe, like what I know I like.

Jon Hayes: 46:10

Also knows the most plain thing ever, and we both loved the place.

Speaker 1: 46:14

Like there was adventurous.

Jon Hayes: 46:15

Mexican seafood cuisine, and there was also really safe options too.

Rob Greene: 46:18

So it was fantastic. Floor de maize Noted Got it.

Erica Hayes: 46:23

Floored and amazed.

Rob Greene: 46:26

Maybe if you're working on a branding project for them, you can throw that out as a tagline, seriously Well. So all right, let's dive back in now with some of this branding stuff, because obviously you guys, that led to some big transition for you guys, paying a picture for me now, because this is how many years into the transition away from wedding photos, how long in are we? Oh, how long in.

Jon Hayes: 46:48

That was 2016?

Erica Hayes: 46:49

2018, we transferred out. What are we in 2023?

Rob Greene: 46:55

23?, five years, five, six years, yeah, yeah, five or six years to move from, so five or six years into this. Now, what's the difference in what life looks like? What is the life of a branding photographer once this thing is up and rolling?

Jon Hayes: 47:07

Yeah Well, I'll tell you one thing that we're proud to talk about, because of our own story and our own priorities, was that when we were in our first year of wedding and lifestyle photography, we made about 60K, but we did that while sacrificing 111 family meal times, weekends, soccer games with our kids, stuff that we didn't want to keep sacrificing.

Erica Hayes: 47:35

And, yes, we truly added it up because we have to know, like we just had to take in perspective what has changed, because this has been the most pivotal thing that we've done to this point and, looking back, it's just opened our eyes in such a huge way of wanting to help others see the possibility.

Jon Hayes: 47:53

Yeah. So we went from 60K missing 111 dinners, weekends in soccer games, to running now a business that serves household brand names, celebrity clients, professional sports teams. We have a team that serves even more amazing clients and we've got a multiple six figure photography business, while not sacrificing any of those weekends, family dinners or sporting events ever. This weekend we get to travel with our son to his very first travel baseball tournament and it's going to be so special. It already is special because I remember when he played soccer he was recruited for club and so was our daughter and we had to. He went through the tryouts, he made the team, we got the information on what the commitment looked like and we had to say no Because we were like I can't drive you an hour across town for soccer practice three nights a week, we're shooting Like I can't do that.

Jon Hayes: 48:52

And so now to be in a season where you talk about change, what looks different when we pick up our cameras to work? It's during the weekdays, it's during business hours in most cases. That allows us to be able to say, yeah, but we're going to get behind you, we're going to support you, we'll have you at your Monday, thursday and Saturday practices and drive across the state and do all this stuff, because we've got that on the weekends, we've got the freedom and flexibility to do that now. So I think, in terms of lifestyle change, that's the biggest one for us is we truly have freedom in our schedule, which was something that we always craved, and freedom that's allowed us to do some other things that kind of, I guess, run against the norm. We pulled our kids out of school, we homeschool our kids, we run our business and do all of these things and just kind of run life on our own terms, and I think, without the white space to be able to do that, none of it would be possible. Yeah.

Rob Greene: 49:47

Now I know this all sounds amazing, but I know it didn't come without some struggle along the way and challenges. What were some of the challenges you guys faced in making a transition like this and what ultimately allowed you to overcome those challenges?

Jon Hayes: 50:04

I think the first challenge was emotional. Yeah Right, it was emotional.

Erica Hayes: 50:07

I am known to be a crier, but I definitely like I had a time where we left our last engagement session and I left crying. I was like I seriously I love this. I love having a person in front of my lens when I am down to 2.0, and I'm creating just like the most dreamy kind of photos, and I love creating that for a couple especially. And so there was a point where I was like I feel like I'm breaking off something that was a part of me from the beginning, because I started this forever ago and I started in weddings and I started second shooting. And so there was a part of me where I was like also struggling with not feeling like I failed at something because I was like this also feels like I'm not completing this because I'm stopping it and I'm turning away from it.

Jon Hayes: 50:54

Yeah, I think the emotional aspect even backed up before that last session to where you mentioned earlier. I was looking at the books and going we're advertising ourselves 100% as luxury wedding photographers, but when we look at revenue, like 20% is coming from weddings and all the rest is coming from brands what happens if we start advertising ourselves as brand photographers Then how much bigger does that grow? And so I was there very quickly. I was looking at the numbers and reports and I'm like this is what we need to do, erica. I was like let's think on it, let's pray on it, let's sleep on it, and I'll never forget. I was sitting at the desk working. She was in the shower because all your best ideas come to you in the shower.

Erica Hayes: 51:32

You got to know. It's true. She yells across the house.

Jon Hayes: 51:35

John, I'm like oh my gosh, what's going on? So I run in and she's like I figured it out, I know exactly what we need to do. I'm like, tell me she goes, we need to go 100% into brand photography. And I was like, yes, I totally let her know, this is her idea.

Speaker 1: 51:51

So it took a while for her first to get emotionally to the point where she was open to that and then, yeah, we had that last session.

Jon Hayes: 51:57

But I think that was one of the other emotions, as you just mentioned a second ago was recognizing that pivoting your business does not equate to failure. Pivoting is not failure If you look at companies that have pivoted and we have to kind of like make ourselves feel better. But who remembers Facebook when it was only for college students? You had to have a university email address and be verified as a college student before you could get on the platform. Now it's like they're not even called Facebook. It's Meta, right, and it's like huge.

Speaker 1: 52:29

It's this huge company.

Jon Hayes: 52:30

They pivoted, they wouldn't have grown to that level love them or hate them. They wouldn't have grown to that level if they hadn't pivoted their business model. You look at plenty of other companies, apple I mean.

Rob Greene: 52:41

They've made tons of pivots Netflix so a pivot is not failure.

Jon Hayes: 52:46

Failure is when you just give up and stop. But pivoting is being a smart business owner and going. You know what? I know I'm emotionally invested in this, but I can't be married to this idea. I can't romanticize this as like something I can't. I have to be willing to treat this.

Jon Hayes: 53:01

As you know, my business is kind of a living organism and grow with it, kind of like we experienced with our kids you know, it's they go through different stages of life and you can't if you try and hold onto them in one stage, you're gonna stump their growth Developmentally, you know, in terms of just their social skills or their abilities or their confidence, whatever you've got to let them grow and just be along for that journey. And I think there's an element to that, as business owners too, of like recognizing hey, this thing, I need to be smart, I need to respond to the ebb and flow of this and be okay with making a pivot when I need to.

Rob Greene: 53:36

You know, erica, you talk about these emotions. I imagine there's a lot of people listening right now that love the idea of making the jump like y'all are talking about, but they do. They have these emotions, like fear and doubt, creeping in. So what do you say to the person who's really wrestling with that question right now of do I even have what it takes to do this?

Erica Hayes: 53:59

I mean, yes, you absolutely. That's. My answer is yes, you have what it takes because you have a passion to do it. And that passion doesn't just get like made up, like you can't just like wake up and like just like, oh, I'm putting this false passion on myself. It's like it's in you.

Erica Hayes: 54:16

If you're feeling that way, if you have a desire for it, even if you're inspired because you see of something else that someone's doing, that doesn't mean it's not your own. That means there's a piece of it that's inside of you too and it's there for a reason. And I would argue, if that's your passion, it's something that you're being called to do and you have a purpose. And so it goes so much more behind, like what you're doing with your camera or like what you're setting your business up to look like it's you and who you are, and like what you're taking the opportunity that you're given in your life and the people you come into contact with through the tool of your business. That's like enabling you to do what you're called to do.

Erica Hayes: 54:58

And so it's like you have what it takes. It doesn't mean it's easy. It doesn't mean it's gonna get done for you. It doesn't mean like you don't have the work to put in, but you have what it takes because you it's just who you are, and I think that's the thing. For me, it's like I am not a wedding photographer. Our best friends are wedding photographers. I look at what they do and I'm like God bless you, like I can't do that.

Erica Hayes: 55:22

Like that's not for me, it's just not.

Jon Hayes: 55:25

But it is for them 100% for them All of them comes to life when they get to do that and that's awesome.

Erica Hayes: 55:31

And I watch it happen and I'm like you guys are incredible at this. So it's like you have what it takes in you for what you're supposed to be doing and if you're feeling the pull like we were, there are so many things like I wish we had all day to sit and tell the stories that have come of us switching our business over to brand photography. And it's not just cool. We have billboards hanging throughout Arizona and it's not that we have photos hanging in the White Sox store in Chicago. It's like the connections that we've had with people that have led to either a bigger business opportunities where we're like holy cow, doris just keep opening.

Erica Hayes: 56:07

There's so many opportunities coming in our way. But also just personal life things where you know we're on the phone with some of our clients, not talking about photo shoots. We're talking about real life things. We're talking about, like you know, things that we're working through, things that they need support on that have nothing to do with business and I just fully believe that you have what it takes because there's opportunities that aren't just for your business, that are waiting for you. Into the practical side of things. It's just telling yourself every day I am not an imposter, I am me. I have this passion. This is the way things are flowing for me. I'm gonna pursue it and I'm gonna do it with everything in me and not looking to the side to see what everyone else is doing, cause that's the hardest part and it gets you doubting yourself. It's you know, it just can get you into a trap. But just staying focused on the passion and like what you feel called to be doing in your business.

Jon Hayes: 57:03

Yeah, you mentioned at the beginning of this, rob you I don't remember exactly how you phrased it but being authentic, like your identity, knowing where your identity is, who you are right, and I think that's the thing is so often when we talk about imposter syndrome, when we talk about fear, when we talk about all of those things, what we're really talking about is getting really confused by all the names or labels or ideas about who we should be the world. You know others think we need to be opinions that others have, maybe it's from, maybe it's from people really close to us too, right, and all of those constantly in friction and in in contrast with what we really feel we need to be doing or who we need to be on the inside. And I think that when you get really really clear on who you need to be to accomplish those big goals one of our mentors says it like this, that's, you said this at the beginning you gotta figure out how do you say something about being and doing.

Rob Greene: 58:05

It's always a good idea to decide who you want to be before you decide what you're going to do, so here's.

Jon Hayes: 58:10

Here's if I can go mindset with you for like two seconds our mentor, Brad. He says it this way there's three ways of doing things. The first one is to believe that you have to do things in order to have the things you want to have the goal, so that you can be the person you want to be. And if you fall into that trap, then you're perpetually doing, creating and starting new things over and over again and never getting there right. The second way of thinking is I need to have these things so that I can do these things and be the person I want to be, which gets you caught in a trap of maybe sometimes victim mentality like I don't have the resources, I don't have the time, I don't have the bandwidth, I don't have the smarts, I don't have access to information.

Jon Hayes: 58:52

Whatever it is, the way things have to work in order to find success is you have to, like you said, be the person you want to be. And if you are operating and like looking forward into the future, who do I want to be? What does that picture of success look like? If it's in brand photography, what do I look like as a successful brand photographer? What does life look like? What do my clients look like? What kind of projects am I working on? What's my schedule look like? Start being that person today, because when you do, you'll start to do the things that that person would do and, as a result, you'll have the things that you want to have.

Jon Hayes: 59:30

Right, be, do, have, and so I think that's the thing is like making a decision, and Eric and I actually watched through an exercise of this recently where we were like what are all the lies, the fake names that we would believe about ourselves, and let's, let's say those out loud and let's throw them away, and then let's instead speak the truth about who we are to ourselves and to each other, and I think you know if you're struggling with imposter syndrome or fear of starting something new, or telling yourself all these ideas those are all lies.

Speaker 1: 1:00:00

They're all made up.

Jon Hayes: 1:00:01

The likelihood of your greatest point of fear and your greatest moment of happiness coming true are equal. So which one do you set your mind to? That's a personal choice.

Speaker 1: 1:00:10

Do you?

Jon Hayes: 1:00:11

give into the fear and run with all the thoughts and all the fears and all the labels of all the reasons why you can't or do you choose to step into, like the authentic truth of hey, this is who I am, this is who I'm created to be, these are the skills that I have. I'm gonna go make it happen, because it's in equal likelihood that that'll come true.

Rob Greene: 1:00:29

I love it. Well, and I love that for you guys. This really all started, as you've said, with a decision that we're going to be parents who are present on the weekends and the evenings with our kids, and this wasn't, you know. Hey, we're gonna make the most money we can possibly make. We're gonna have the nicest things we can possibly have. This was we want to be the best parents we can be to our kids and we want to be present on weekends, present at ball games, present for all those moments that are so limited that we have with our kids, and everything that has been a part of this pivot for y'all has really flown out of that decision, which is incredible.

Rob Greene: 1:01:04

So, man, thank you so much for sharing your story. You guys have been so incredible about painting this picture of what could be for us. Help us as we're wrapping things up here. Help us get really practical for a minute. If someone wants to explore what it looks like to get into branding, photography, what are maybe like three things that they can start doing today to start moving in that direction?

Jon Hayes: 1:01:29

Yeah, I think first would be understand if you're wanting to work in brand photography, beginning to get an idea and an understanding of what area of brand photography do you wanna work within? There's so much opportunity and you can. We live in a day and age where you can specialize in anything and be known for that one thing. Gary Vaynerchuk actually talked about this, I think, at WPPI, like years and years ago, and I listened to it on a podcast a couple of years ago. He was like, wow, this is outdated but it's so true. He was like we live in an era where you're not just a photographer. You could choose to be a dog photographer and not just a dog photographer, but you could choose to be like a Pomeranian dog photographer and not just a Pomeranian dog photographer. You can choose to be a luxury Pomeranian dog photographer and if you narrow into that niche, you can get flown to all these people's private yachts to take pictures of their luxury Pomeranian dressed up in a sailor suit on the bow of their yacht and get paid Bukku bucks for it. And it's like that's so true. And what's cool within the brand industry is you can get super, super niche like that if you want to and like only work with fitness brands or only work with product or only work with personal brands and lifestyle influencers. You can get super niche or you can go really broad, like we do, and just say, hey, if there's a brand with a story to tell, that's what fires us up. We like the challenge of telling every brand's unique story, but I think getting familiar like the best thing someone could do as a step one.

Jon Hayes: 1:02:52

Start looking around and being aware of all of the imagery around you all the time and recognize someone's creating that. So whether it's a billboard, a magazine spread, something in the newspaper, a mailing advertisement, something you see on TV, those images someone created. So which ones draw you in when you're looking at them? Which ones make you go like, ooh, that would be a lot of fun. Oh, I think that would be great to shoot and start exploring cause when you're. It's an old saying, but it's true, right, if you do what you love, you never work a day in your life or whatever. Like. There are projects we've shot where I'm like I am showing up to work today and I've got to work.

Jon Hayes: 1:03:33

There are other projects that I'm like, oh, you're paying me too. Like, wow, I can't believe I'm getting paid to do this. Like I would do this for free, right? What are the ones that would make you feel that way? Start trying to identify what that is, because there's so much opportunity and I think for a lot of people, finding what niche they like within this would be really helpful.

Erica Hayes: 1:03:53

And I think step two would really just follow, that which is, show your portfolio and I know someone's right now thinking I don't have one. Great, this is where you're going to make one and you're going to be the brand photographer and you're going to do the thing.

Erica Hayes: 1:04:06

So you have the portfolio. So how you do that thing is either, like John said, figure out what you want your target to be. So maybe it's personal brands and you, you know, you look to the personal brands that you want to work for. For me one day also, I know I've got really lofty goals. So the Thomas Rhett family, but also.

Speaker 1: 1:04:23

Joanna and they're a chip in Joanna games Like if.

Erica Hayes: 1:04:26

I could shoot, just I would take her cookbook. I would take like anything. I would love to do it. I'm not going to attract her mark.

Jon Hayes: 1:04:34

Hold on pause. Literally cross country drive. Moving truck pulling trailers, pickup truck pulling trailers our move from Arizona to Florida. She thought it was a good idea to make a detour to Waco with all of our stuff in tow to go see joining games. Just like pause and insert that I'm not crazy.

Erica Hayes: 1:04:53

I'm not crazy. I know that the chances could be.

Jon Hayes: 1:04:56

I'm passion is real.

Erica Hayes: 1:04:58

It's real, I could just connect with the right person. Spoiler alert he didn't let us stop Anyways you have. What was that even saying, oh, I'm not going to attract Joanna games like marketing person If I don't show work that shows I could handle that. So maybe I'm not immediately going to Joanna games, but I might be shooting a cookbook. You know, maybe I'll take a cookbook and do something with it in my kitchen, or you know, whatever the case may, be.

Jon Hayes: 1:05:24

Make your family a pie and photograph the process. Put it on your website.

Erica Hayes: 1:05:28

Yeah, it's just start building that portfolio. For what? And if you don't know the niche right away, just start somewhere. Just start If it's literally, grab the hand soap off of your counter and get creative, figure out how can you shoot the heck out of that hand soap to show some product photos.

Rob Greene: 1:05:45

Yeah, and we can make hand soap look good for somebody. You can probably make a lot of things look good. We've had to photograph.

Jon Hayes: 1:05:52

Yeah, we've had to photograph hand soap, so it was between our experiences, so that sounds like you can do it.

Erica Hayes: 1:05:56

If we can shoot a bottle of soft scrub, you can shoot a bottle of hand soap.

Jon Hayes: 1:06:02

The whole thing that inspired us to that idea, because that's what we did in the beginning too. We actually our web designer. She was designing for all these smaller brands and was like I really want to break out of this kind of spot I'm stuck in. And she's like who do I want to shoot for or who do I want to design for? I want to design for anthropology. And so she's like all right, I'm going to create. So apparently, designers have this own social media platform called Dribble, with multiple B's like dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble. Anyway, I don't know, I just know it exists. She designed this whole product suite, this whole brand identity, all of these packaging, labels and all this stuff for a line that she thought would like hey, maybe this would be something you'd see in anthropology. It didn't exist, the business didn't exist. She did it for fun, she did it as a portfolio builder.

Speaker 1: 1:06:47

Guess what happened.

Jon Hayes: 1:06:49

The marketing person for anthropology saw her work on Dribble and reached out and was like oh my gosh, this is amazing. We would love you to work with us. She designs for them now. So this isn't just waste your time kind of ideology. It's literally a brand wants to see right away. Oh, I need someone who can. Maybe it's Hanso, I need someone who can photograph, or Hanso? Wow, there's pictures of products like that. Wow, these are really good photos. I'm going to call them.

Speaker 1: 1:07:15

That's how it works.

Jon Hayes: 1:07:16

And so it's a very practical but very effective step.

Rob Greene: 1:07:21

I have seen over and over again in my life that faithfulness in small things leads to opportunity in larger things, and that's just what you guys are describing right there. That's it to a T. There's no glory in these little side projects that you're just doing and testing out in the Hanso. There's no glory in that. There's no accolades that come from that. But your faithfulness in practicing those skills over and over again leads to those opportunities that come down the road.

Rob Greene: 1:07:48

I love that you've talked about identifying the style of photos that you really grab your attention, identifying the kind of clients you wanna work with and shooting some stuff that would appeal to that type of client. I would throw in there too, identifying who you wanna learn from to do this, because, like you said, there's a roadmap for things like wedding photography. Surely there's gotta be one for branding photography too. And you guys looked around and didn't see one and you started to go hey, what if we helped people find that roadmap? Tell me about what y'all have coming up. Y'all got some cool things on the horizon here.

Speaker 1: 1:08:28

Oh man, do we ever? That's exactly right is.

Jon Hayes: 1:08:31

we looked around and realized, hey, this was a really hard journey for us. To make this pivot, we learned a lot of lessons the really really hard way, both I mean things that cost us not just mental energy, not just emotional energy, but financial energy.

Jon Hayes: 1:08:48

I guess, if we're gonna call it all energy, like a lot of missed dollar opportunities and a lot of expenses that we incurred that were like whoops didn't need to do that. And so when we started to look back on our journey, after we kind of ironed out a lot of the wrinkles and the bumps in this process and formulated a process for how to work with brands on this level, we realized, oh my gosh, what we just lived through we can help others with by skipping that whole learning curve and getting straight to a system that works. And so we've actually got a brand new class coming up on September 12th, Tuesday, September 12th, at 11 am Eastern time, and we're unpacking the three secrets to finally break into brand photography and have your first six figure year.

Jon Hayes: 1:09:32

We're gonna unpack our blueprint for exactly how we work with brands, how we find success, understanding their unique brand story and telling that story through imagery, and so we're super excited to make that blueprint available to everyone listening.

Erica Hayes: 1:09:46

And this isn't just for brands of big, scary names, like for those who could be, you know, scared to like think of a professional baseball team right off the bat. It's not that. It's every kind of brand small mom and pop shops, personal brands, household brand names. It scales to all of them and it really is. It's the three secrets that we just narrowed it down to. If we would have done this, this and this, wow, we would have skipped so many of these things. And it ultimately is the thing that just ignites us to help others skip past, like, all of the hard learning things we had to go through, because there is so much success to be found in brand photography and we love to be able to help people bypass all the hard learning curves that we had to go through and just see, like, how successful it is and ultimately, from that success, your business changes. But our favorite part is the life change and just all of the personal, family aspects that have benefited in such a huge way from it.

Rob Greene: 1:10:45

And so this is a free live class coming up here on September 12th amazing, absolutely free absolutely free with, by the way, just for showing up to class.

Jon Hayes: 1:10:53

We're giving away a free resource for those who join us too. So, yeah, if you come in and show up live, we're giving away a free resource for people just attending, spending their time with us, hopefully learning and making a positive impact on them in the process, and leaving with a tool to help them start making some of those pivots and steps, if they'd like to, in their business.

Rob Greene: 1:11:12

So if you're listening to this in real time, jump on in there. We'll put the link in the show notes. But if you're listening in the car or something, just know it's bopsquare8studiocom slash Erica and John. Again, that's bopsquare8studiocom slash Erica and John. It'll have a link to jump in this free live class with these guys and continue learning from them. John and Erica. Thanks so much for coming on. If people wanna follow along with your story, where's the easiest place to stay in touch and follow along?

Jon Hayes: 1:11:39

Best place is gonna be on the gram.

Erica Hayes: 1:11:41

Yep Instagram.

Jon Hayes: 1:11:42

On the gram.

Erica Hayes: 1:11:43

We are at, yeah, at, erica and John. No H in this guy's name is also up there in that corner, don't?

Speaker 1: 1:11:48

know how to point to it.

Erica Hayes: 1:11:50

But, yeah, that's where we show up the most, just because it's a one easy spot for us to share valuable advice, but also just more about us and this journey that we're on and helping others.

Jon Hayes: 1:12:02

Occasional house projects.

Erica Hayes: 1:12:04

Occasional house projects.

Rob Greene: 1:12:05

yes, we're showing one of those right now, and Erica is quite the humorous real creator as well. She's usually good for one of those on a pretty regular basis. So if you wanna laugh, follow along with their reels as well.

Erica Hayes: 1:12:18

Oh well, thank you. That's me putting my. I've always wanted to be Kelly Kapowski from Save by the.

Speaker 1: 1:12:24

Bell.

Erica Hayes: 1:12:24

So when I feel like I need to act, I go to reels.

Rob Greene: 1:12:30

I love it and you've got a Kelly Kapowski vibe. That's totally it. Y'all is a Zach and Kelly of the photography space.

Erica Hayes: 1:12:36

She's mine, so there we go.

Rob Greene: 1:12:40

Well, erica and John, thank you so much for coming on and hanging out with us today. Cannot wait to jump in and check out this live class with you guys, and can't wait to see you. We're gonna be hanging out next month down in your neck of the woods. So I look forward to seeing you guys in person and hopefully we'll have a better experience with our waiters the next time around. The last time we hung out, every waiter in every restaurant took forever.

Erica Hayes: 1:13:05

So hopefully we have a little better lockdown in your neck of the woods. I think we will, and we can't wait for that. Rob, thank you so much for having us today, and we can't wait to hang out in person here super soon.

Rob Greene: 1:13:17

Oh my gosh y'all. Are they not just the best? The chemistry between those two man the husband and wife teams we've had on the show are just phenomenal. I love those two so much and their kids are amazing. I'm so stoked to get to hang out with them down in Florida here in a few weeks. Maybe I'll share a little of that on a future episode of the Bop, but thank you so much for tuning in to this first episode of season two. We just have so many incredible guests lined up for season two that are gonna bless your socks off. They're gonna bring so many unique perspectives from different elements of the industry, different parts of the country, the world. It's going to be incredible If we're not hanging out. By the way, on Instagram together already, be sure to give us a follow at square eight studio. Would love to connect with you on there and get to know you and your story. Until next time, though, friends, keep learning, keep loving and keep chasing those dreams you were made for Habас gratis.