Heather Miller - Ukraine Resident, Adopted 8 kiddos and mother of 12

Today’s guest is Heather Miller. She and her husband spent about ten years in the Ukraine where they had four children. 

By the time they left, they had adopted four more. 

Once they returned, they adopted a sibling set of four.  

Listen to her experience in the Ukraine, the amazing friendships she formed and the joy they experienced with each new family member.

Subscribe to the Women of the Northwest podcast for inspiring stories and adventures.
Find me on my website: jan-johnson.com

Transcript

Jan Johnson 0:01

Hello, and welcome to Women of the Northwest. This is going to be a fun day talking with Heather Miller.

She has had an exciting life to say the least. There have been a few fun things in her life like living in Ukraine and adopting a few kids. I wanted to start, I found an article this morning about conversations. And I just wanted to read a little bit of that. Because I thought it was really interesting. There are positive effects of talking with strangers. A new study finds people benefit from deep and meaningful conversations that help us forge connections with one another. But we often stick to small talk with strangers because we under estimate how much others are interested in or lives and wrongly believe that deeper conversations will be more awkward and less enjoyable than they actually are. According to research published by the American Psychological Association, connecting with others in meaningful ways, tends to make people happier. And yet people also seem reluctant to engage in deeper and more meaningful conversation. I just thought, first of all, we could all be happier. That's a good thing, right? And I just think that that's what this podcast is doing is helping us to have some deep conversations. So here's my first question for you, Miss Heather, tell us how you ended up in the Ukraine?

Heather 1:32

Well, it was interesting, because my husband and I both but separately, were studying Russian in college. And the church we were attending had some missionaries, they had sent out who were living outside of the Soviet Union in preparation for the fall of the Soviet Union. And so when the walls came down, and the Soviet Union came apart, this couple was able to move into Ukraine, and they invited our college ministry to come and do a short term missions trip. It was right before we got married. Tim went without me the first year in 1992. And then together, we went back in 1993. And we let another team in short term. And it was on that trip, that we just really felt a burden on our hearts, both of us individually. And as a couple to consider moving their long term, which we then proceeded to make preparations and plan for a while he was serving his military commitment to prepare and get ready to move to Ukraine. So we moved there in full time in 1997. But we made several small trips, from 1992 until 97, for short term.

 Jan Johnson 2:39

So how long did you live there?

Heather 2:43

All told we repatriated back to the US in 2009. Officially, we were back in the states in 2008, thinking it was just for one year. But in early 2009, it became evident for a variety of reasons that our family needed to stay in the United States. So we repatriated and made our home long term back in the US.

 Jan Johnson 3:07

And so what were some of the things that you did while you're there?

Heather 3:11

Well, the first thing we did was even though we both studied Russia, we learned the Ukrainian language, because that's really the heart for many, many speakers, and a lot of foreigners will come in and use their Russian because it's the most convenient, and it's the most widespread language. But Tim and I just really felt called to work with people whose heart language was Ukrainian. So we ditched the Russian, started over with Ukrainian, which is another Slavic language but different alphabet and began again. So that was one of the first things we did. And then we began full time ministry working with primarily 15- to 25-year-old young people. Through it, we did a cultural exchange, Tim taught in university, we ran camps and sporting events and different things like that. That was in the capitol in Kiev. Then we moved to a town on the Polish border called Leviev, another large college town, and we worked more closely with local churches to do leadership development among the young people. So we shifted our focus a little bit, but their age group and our target group was the same. 

 Jan Johnson 4:27

I would think that when you started, maybe you had one idea of how it was going to be but then as you got into it, maybe you did change your focus.

Heather 4:39

Yeah, I mean, as the people that we're working with grew older, many of them got married and started families. And so our ministry kind of evolved to doing seminars for first dating and relationships and then it evolved into marriage relationships and parenting relationships. And so yes, it evolved and we knew that if we were to return after a year in the United States, our plan was to be focused on curriculum development step out of the day to day kind of running of the ministry, because the Ukrainians were doing it. And the people that we had worked alongside with really didn't need us involved in the day to day anymore. They were fully capable and doing a fantastic job. So we knew that our role needed to change if we were to return to Ukraine,

 Jan Johnson 5:26

And isn't that ultimately what you wanted it to happen?

Heather 5:29

Absolutely. The whole time was we were trying to work ourselves out of a job. That was our intent. We never, never expected to live in Ukraine for the rest of our lives. We anticipated being there 12 years. So 1997 to 2009, we were kind of right in there. We were open to returning and we expected to return to Ukraine, but just had to have to make a shift in plans for a variety of reasons. So yeah. 

 Jan Johnson 5:57

So if you were talking about marriage relations, what's the difference in like, their cultural, with weddings, marriage ideals have I close to what our lives are?

Heather 6:11

I would say that it's a human desire for somebody to be known and loved intimately. That transcends cultural boundaries, and geopolitical lines, for sure. There are some differences with traditions and how they have a wedding, especially first moved over 97, it was still very much had been influenced by the Soviet atheist culture, they were required to be the only the only ceremony that was legal happened in the civil ceremony. If people had a church ceremony, it was completely superfluous. It had no bearing on their legal standing at all. So there was that. And I'm not sure legally if that's even changed. But I would say as more western influences come in, the ceremonies are starting to look a lot, a lot more like in America, what are traditionally you would think of as a traditional wedding service would be. So that's, that's a lot of Hollywood influencing. In Hollywood, in the magazine industry, influencing the culture. Yeah, for sure. 

 Jan Johnson 7:19

So when you were doing all of this, you had a couple of kids already.

Heather 7:24

We moved over there with three, our youngest was six weeks old when we moved over. And we had a fourth little guy. And then yeah, we ended up fostering too, with the plan to adopt. The foster system is very different in Ukraine than it is in America. And usually, as foreigners, you're not entitled to know any information about children that are available or not for an adoption in Ukraine. But because we owned property, and we're residents of Ukraine, we fell within a different set of rules. And so we were allowed the privilege of becoming the guardians of two little boys, Marquis and Josiah. And then after Josiah had been in our home about four months, we got a visit from the caseworker. And she said, Oh, by the way, we found a brother and a sister. And so that began the process, but they were not legally available for foreign adoption for until about two years after they had come into our home. And so we filed the paperwork to do that. And when we adopted them, then we were able to adopt Josiah, his older brother and sister. So we got four Ukrainian children. 

Heather 7:40

What motivated you to want to do that? You already had four kids.

Heather 8:55

Yes, well, there's a tremendous need in Ukraine for the orphans. Many of them are what we would call social orphans, in the sense that they have a biological parent that's living but is probably unable to care for them. But they do not have a system where these children are placed into homes. They're in an orphanage system. And it was very broken and poor from the Soviet times with lack of money. Just rundown buildings, poorly trained staff, not enough staff. And like my son, Josiah, his orphanage had no running water for many parts of the day. And so and they didn't have access to disposable diapers. So you can imagine that the personal hygiene of the children was very poor and weak, which leads to illness and things like that. And so we recognized that we could help where we can there's a little bit like the starfish analogy where guys walking along saying what good is it do to throw back one well, I can't save them all, but I can help this one. And so they just do a basically by region of kind of like here if you're in your own district. And so when we got finished qualifying to be guardians, they said, Well, there's one kid in your area. And that was Marquis on. And he came to live with us. And then when we were ready to consider a second child, then we just went to the neighboring district. And there was a whole list of kids actually. But they had just told us a little bit about each kid. And I remember the only thing that stuck out on that whole list of children, where she said, Oh, this little boy, he has six fingers. On one hand, nobody will ever adopt him because he's a boy, and he's got a deformity. And I thought, well, that's such a shame, because that can be fixed. But anyway, so when we, went to the neighboring region, I just said, I just really want to meet this little boy. It's really who has been placed on my heart, I really want to meet him. And so they brought us Josiah, and he came to stay with us and never went back.

 Jan Johnson 11:00

Wow. Yeah. So that was a little life changing and meanwhile you're still figuring out how to do life

Heather 11:06

How to do life. Yeah, he weighed he was two and a half, well, just over two years old, and he weighed 14 pounds, the size of a 9-month old. So we have a lot of work to do to help him get healthy and get some motor skills and some things like that. He just started walking. So it was a little bit different than having a typical two year old, right. So some, but his health needs. I mean, once we got past that initial stage, he's been super healthy, no long term, physical illnesses or problems. 

Jan Johnson 11:40

And I'm gonna guess that now that he's a teenager, he eats just everything in sight

Heather 11:44

Still skinny as a rail. But yes, he eats a lot.

 Jan Johnson 11:50

Well, what kind of affected this? You know, both living in Ukraine and having adopted siblings? How? What kind of effect did that have on your bio kids?

Heather 12:01

Well, it's interesting, because they're now all adults. And so it's been really a privilege to hear them share with us from an adult, you know, looking back on their childhoods. One of the things that was important to us is that they were all of the age where we felt like we could include them in the decision. It wasn't a decision that just Tim and I made. We understand that their children it can't fully comprehend, what that would mean, but we did want them to have buy in so to speak, you know that this was a family decision, not something that mom and dad were, you know, just dumping on them. And so all of them, we sat down with them individually and had a conversation and they all said that they wanted to do this. And so, of course it wasn't without its struggles. I remember our youngest at the time, when we brought Mark home from the orphanage after I'd put Mark down for his nap. My trying to think how old was he was probably four he had been like, hadn't rocked him, you know, before a rest time in a while. But he all of a sudden wanted rocking chair time with mom for about 45 minutes every day. And that probably lasted a good three months for them, where he just kind of needed to be reassured that he still had a place in mom's lap. But yeah, I think as adults, they've all affirmed that it was the right decision. My youngest biological child. And he has said, having so many siblings is been a challenge for him. But he doesn't regret it. He wasn't, wouldn't say regret it. And we've asked you know, if there been anything that you wish we had done differently, and he knew nothing about the adoption, nothing about bringing these kids in. And I think that even though sometimes it gets hard, they know deep down that it was the right thing to do. And they really do have sibling relationships with them. So it's a good blessing. It's been a blessing to watch them grow. 

 Jan Johnson 14:04

It's been interesting for me to see with our kids. I had three with my first marriage and then after Howard died, then I married ED, he had a natural and two adopted. And then we had three more together. So we kind of had them mixed up crazy family, which was I say, a lot of years of a lot of adjusting all the way around, you know, and probably more so because there was going back and forth to their mom, some of them back and forth. But as adults, I think they're all friends. You know, and they see each other as a different level, you know, as adults and I think

 Heather 14:49

and one thing for us that we did and we just felt it every family does this differently. There's no right or wrong but for us we felt like it was important that all the children onto our home were younger than our biological child. And, and so that was something that we stuck to. And I think it made a difference, it just seemed more of a natural growing of our family 

 Jan Johnson 15:09

and have a pecking order, 

Heather 15:10

right, as opposed to, okay, we're gonna insert this, you know, 13-year- old between the 12, and the 14- year- old and all of a sudden have, you know As a child of adopted siblings, myself, I have four adopted siblings, and that, you know, that comes with its own set of challenges. I adore my siblings, I'm so thankful that they're in my life and that I have them. But as a teenager, a 15-year-old, getting three more teenagers in the house all at once definitely comes with its challenges. So I think because I had that experience as a child being the biological child of a family who adopted, I was able to help my biological kids kind of walk through some of that transition, in a way with some sort of greater empathy. Maybe,

 Jan Johnson 15:53

right? Yeah. And I think, too, like to begin with, when Ed and I were dating, his daughter was the same age as my daughter. They were both only girls. Oh, that's gonna be so great. It didn't quite turned out that way.

Heather 16:10

It usually takes a period of time for friendship to be the result. 

 Jan Johnson 16:16

Yeah. Let's go back to Ukraine. And, again, show us a little bit what the culture is like in Ukraine, how are things different? I mean, give us a picture.

Heather 16:31

Well, it's shifted so dramatically from 1997. Well, even from 1992, to 1997, when when we first started going over there short term We went over there when it was the collapse of the Soviet Union, the grocery store shelves were bare, it was difficult to find services and products, the infrastructure was,

 Jan Johnson 16:49

this is sounding like COVID.

Heather16:50

A much greater level than COVID was for sure. I mean, I know it's been hard for people during COVID. But you can imagine it 1000-fold, you know, the challenges of finding, I remember one day thinking I either can spend the day trying to find lettuce somewhere. Or I can do laundry and take care of my kids. I had to choose, you know, that's gone without the lettuce tonight. So yeah, it was very difficult to find things. But even when we by the time we moved over there in 97, it was a little bit easier. And it just went up from there. So now it's mind blowing, like we took mark and Joe, two of our teenagers back for a visit our last two Ukrainian born children for a visit this summer. And Mark was just one of the things he said is I love how there's a brand new, modern building with all the technology, everything right next door to this ancient, you know, facade, and you know, this sometimes crumbling building. And that's, I would say, a good picture of how things are. They're still finding their feet as a country, if you know Ukraine's history at all. It's had fits and starts of independence, they're a fiercely independent people who have been subjugated by dominant cultures around them for a long time. But one thing about the culture too, and I say this to people all the time, their national hero is a poet, Taras Shevchenko. And you'll see his statues all around the country. His works are recited by schoolchildren, his music is played by the National musicians. So when you have a national poet as your hero that tells you a lot about the peace loving nature of them as a people. And so for them, and their flat terrain, for the most has led to a lot of subjugation by dominant cultures around them. So it's created this, to me this amazing culture of people who are peace loving, fiercely independent, very warm when they know you. I think the Soviet culture impacted them really negatively in that sense, and bringing up mistrust of their neighbors, and all of those kinds of things. I mean, that's like four lectures in and of itself. So I won't go into that. But it's a culture that just really resonated with us. 

 Jan Johnson 19:19

Yeah.

Heather 19:19

So we were home in Ukraine. Our home was there. We didn't just live there for a little bit of time. Our friends were our family. They were and are very dear to us. So it was it was a tearing away when we decided to stay. I think my one of my kids said it best, he said, and it was our oldest child who struggled a little bit in Ukrainian schools. He socially It was a difficult thing for him. So we ended up homeschooling him his junior high years. But he said to me, I think staying in the US maybe I'll cry a little bit less Oh, but it was still some tears, even for him and the other, the other children were far more integrated, I would say into the culture than even Daniel was. So it was, we I think I cried every day for two years and in the third and fourth year somebody asked me to talk about it, there would be tears in my eyes. I didn't necessarily weep.

 Jan Johnson 20:26

Was that because he was seen as a foreigner or because of the school he was in?

Heather 20:29

That was part of it. And they would, make fun of him because he's a foreigner. And there's nothing you can do to change, right. But he was fluent in the language. He sang in a national choir at Kidd children's choir. And he's very, we say, you know, he bleeds blue and yellow. But he was very American. He loves America, when he was four years old, he could sing the Star-Spangled Banner, by heart, he's huge patriot. But his heart just expanded to include Ukraine. And he's in the military. He speaks Ukrainian. He gets, you know, the extra stipend for having a strategic language. And it's something that has been near and dear to his heart for you know, even though socially some are awkward, just no matter where you live. 

 Jan Johnson 21:14

Yeah. 

Heather 21:15

So I just think that when he expressed it that way, 

 Jan Johnson 21:20

yeah, it's your mom's heart. 

Heather 21:23

Yeah, it was. My daughter said to me, just because something is traumatic, does not necessarily make it bad. And in America, sometimes we equate trauma with negative. And she just had just like being born as a trauma. But it's a necessary trauma, to live life. And so what she, you know, for her, it's like, coming back from Ukraine. She has full life here, wonderful friendships. But she still keeps in touch. That's the beauty of, you know, technology. They they can video chat and keep in touch. And it's, you know, such a blessing. But it's ,you're living in two worlds. And your heart always feels a little bit divided. Once you've made that leap and lived cross culturally, I think, especially for us when we've stayed in one place, and we really had deep, deep roots and community. So yeah,

 Jan Johnson 22:17

but you know that you'll always have friends there. 

Heather 22:19

Absolutely. lifetime relationships that you build. So now it's so fun. Because when I first met a lot of these people, most of these people, they were young students not attending to their name. And now they've successful businesses, and they have, you know, wonderful families. And they get to invite—you know, we have groups that are home six days of the week. And we were the the hub of everything. And it was the Millers house, that all the parties were at all of all of the big events were at our house. And now we go and it's, you know, we get to be the guest, and they get to host us. And it's such a delight for everybody to do.

 Jan Johnson 22:59

Yeah, I'm sure it's a delight 

Heather 23:00

to see this as you do with your own children when they, you know, they can do this. And so going back this summer, and being a part of that, and being in our friends homes, and then getting to just be our hosts. I mean, it was just my heart was so full.

 Jan Johnson 23:14

I could imagine. Yeah, yeah, that would be wonderful. So you came back to the States, and then he just happened to get a few more kids.

Heather 23:24

Yeah, yeah, we got a phone call from DHS. I used to joke, I'm not going to answer the phone in October, because every phone call came in October for our kids in Ukraine and for our kids here. But answering those calls has been the biggest blessing in my life. So I just- it's a joke. But yes, they they gave us a phone call, a family member was likely going to be losing custody of her kids. And they looked at family first to make the placement. And so they said, Would you be interested? I said, Well, just so you know. We have eight children currently, and my husband is a full time student. So I'm just not sure if that works with what your parameters are. They said, well, we'd still like to have a conversation with you. So that started the process. And it was just two boys. At first. Our ninth and tenth kiddos, but they said, you know, if you take them you have to be understand that their younger sister is still with bio mom. And but there's a chance that that won't last and you need to be willing to take the baby as well. So he said, okay, here we go. And about three months after they moved in, we got the phone calls, caseworker, so it'll be there in an hour with the nine month old. So yeah, we got three kids three additional then and then after their adoption was completed. biological parents had another child and we had the whole conversation again about whether kiddo number 12 was going to be joining our family and It just kind of came to a crisis point where before DHS even stepped in bio mom reached out to me and said, It's not safe for him to be with me. Would you please come get him? And I said, Tell me where you are. Yeah. That was that.

 Jan Johnson 25:15

But even with that wasn't because you had older kids there, you know, they stepped in to help out with them. 

Heather 25:21

They were so excited. We weren't really sure. Because, you know, we just had four and they were still adjusting to life in the United States. And I was hard. Transitioning back when they had been in Ukrainian schools. They didn't feel American. They looked American. They sounded American. But they didn't feel American. And so they were still going through a lot of those transitions themselves. So, you know, bless their hearts. They were really so in fact, our oldest, who I think struggled at that time, emotionally the most with some bonding. And really, when we said, here's the situation, what do you think he's the one who said first, whoa, you have to do it. I mean, just like to him, it was a no brainer. So that was just really affirming for us. Because I'm like, I don't want to get tunnel vision and see that these children have needs, but I can't. God gave me these others first. That's how it works for us. The ones that are first are here, and I need to be sure that whatever I say yes to after that does not cause me to be derelict in the first responsibility I have. So that was really affirming. And yes, they were all hands on excited about having them, you know, doing the shuffle of the bedrooms, and you know, all of that, how is this gonna work? And we definitely had support from extended family. My parents were huge supporters of it. In fact, we were living with them when we were still transitioning, and I'm like, Are you sure this is way more than you bargained for? Do we need to find another house? And they're like, No, forget that. We want to be a part of it. So that was just huge, you know, just to have that kind of support from all over that was big. So

 Jan Johnson 27:05

Well, let's talk a little bit. You and I both have large families, what are some little tips and tricks?

Heather 27:15

Well, one thing that we do from an early age, just teach them to be have a level of independence, as soon as they can participate in helping we try and get them to do that. And we do have some kids with some difficulties, some special challenges that have made some of they're not neurotypical. So some of the developmental things have been delayed. But we know that they're going to get there. 

 Jan Johnson 27:42

So when can I always hope.

Heather 27:44

Yes, yes. So you know, it just it's not really an age that we say yes or no to things or have certain expectations. It's a developmental stage that we look for. So but as soon as we can get them involved in the process of taking responsibility for their own selves, and their things, that's really important. So yes, we do have chore expectations on a daily and a weekly basis. And I think that for any child that helps whether you have two kids in the home, or tewelve Kids in the home, it helps them be ready for independence.

 Jan Johnson 28:17

We had a chore chart on the fridge. And I just rotated I had here's the chores, I just rotated the names. Yeah. So they all had an opportunity to learn how to wash dishes to make

Heather 28:28

sure there's a rotation and all of that I don't have a chore chart, I don't operate. So because our kids play sports. Yeah, and our different seasons call for different things. I've just found it a little bit more fluid with that, and I can manage it. So it works. But the thing for me most as a mom is to be really careful what I say yes to outside of the home, right? I think that's been key for me. And it's been hard lesson sometimes because I am a helper by nature, to say no to really good and important things that need to happen. But I have to recognize that I cannot be the answer all the time.

 Jan Johnson 29:03

Right? 

Heather 29:03

So I just have to say no, that's been an important thing, just no matter where we are, to remember that. And so and focusing for me, just as a mom, just focusing on what my main responsibility is. Just recently went back to work after years and years and a lot of years not. When my youngest got into school, it seems like I brought us more kids. And so my entry back into the working force has been delayed much later than I expected but, but just being willing to wait until it was the right time I think was really important. And I'm not a super patient person. So that was a life skill I had to adjust to and wasn't without its arguments with God at times. But yeah, I think that's for me that's been the key is keeping focused on what the needs are on the home front. That's my primary responsibility and then just being very choosy about what I say yes to outside of that. And yeah, just being organized. 

 Jan Johnson 30:08

How do you keep a schedule?

Heather 30:10

I do a menu a so I try and grocery shop just once a week when I'm already in town. I'm part of our worship team at church. So I go in for music rehearsal, and I do my shopping before or after that. So that saves me time. I love Amazon Prime. Two days shipping when you live in the country was super convenient. You know, that's helped a lot. But you know, it's just really it's just being organized and just kind of knowing what needs to happen. And

 Jan Johnson30:44

Okay, here's the question that Sidney is gonna want to know. Have you ever forgotten a kid? 

Heather30:50

We have.

 Jan Johnson 30:53

Because apparently, I've forgotten her not once and not twice, but three times!

Heather31:01

Our hasn't been like that. Because we're so many kids, we often take two vehicles to get places. 

 Jan Johnson 31:09

Wait- do you have her? do you have her?

Heather 31:10

We usually do the check in? Whoa, do you have such and such? okay, I've got the rest, you know, and like, or I'll say don't leave because so and so's not in my car. But we have left- We went back to school event or something for one of my daughters. We were living in Oregon City and I got a phone call. Mom from how come— everybody- we left him at home. We didn't believe him at the grocery store. Or you know, at the zoo. Or, you know, I was locked out at amusement park one time, you know, my mom got out to the car. Oh, no, Heather had to go back. So, you know, we have gone on to the next exhibit at the zoo when we recognize Oh, okay, somebody's got to go back and back in you know, so there's kind of a couple of terrifying you know, those are terrifying moments. But no, as far as like leaving a kid somewhere, it's just left him at home one time in. And we went back and picked him up and he joined us for the picnic. So

 Jan Johnson 32:09

10 is bad, you know, stress induced PTSD. Right?

Heather 32:13

No scars, no scars from that. I don't know. He's building Legos and he was oblivious.

 Jan Johnson32:20

Is there you know, If you could capsulate everything. What do you think has brought you the most joy?

Heather32:28

Oh, oh, my goodness. That's I don't think it's a part it's possible to say what most Yeah, I mean, my children, of course, that just the indescribably, if somebody had told me that I was going to have 12 children is that when I was younger, I would have just probably scoffed at them. I mean, no way. And I just even now it kind of blows my mind that we're at number that we have 12 children back to school and Christmas. That's when I really feel okay. I've got 12 kids. But I think our life and you get the privilege of living in Ukraine and working alongside the people that we did was, I mean, first of all, it is really hard to make that adjustment. But I think once we did and got over that painful, first couple of years of missing home and what we thought of this home and making Ukraine, our home. I think that the amount of joy and life and we wouldn't have had four of our kids if we hadn't moved over there. And then moving back as hard and, awful as we thought it was. I mean, we just like I said, I wept. I wouldn't have my youngest four if we had not moved back to the United States. Yeah. And so the plan, the timing was all God and I just, I just feel like blessed and privileged to be on this journey. Honestly, I just, I can't say that there was one. I can't pick. My life has been so full of joy. I just.

 Jan Johnson34:17

And that's not to say that there aren't frustrations where times when things are not totally hunky dory. But

Heather 34:24

sometimes the greatest joy is after the most difficult trials because you're just your awareness of the and the appreciation that you feel is so much greater when you've been through something so hard, right? Yeah, yeah, definitely.

 Jan Johnson34:41

Well, we are out of time. This has really been fun. It's been fun for you, listeners.

Heather 34:46

Thank you for having me. Welcome.

 Jan Johnson 34:48

This was great. Thank you.