Women of the Northwest
Ordinary Women Leading Extraordinary Lives
Interviews with interesting women.
Motivating. Inspiring. Compelling.
Women of the Northwest
Amber Rose-Author When I Am Ashes, Musician with Joan Baez, Pete Seeger, United Farmworkers
Today’s guest is Amber Rose, author of When I Am Ashes.
- She worked in the first Montessori School.
- Worked with Bruno Bettelheim and became a social worker, wrote songs that touched people's heart singing with Joan Baez, Pete Seeger, Peter, Paul and Mary,
- Worked with the United Farmworkers and Cesar Chavez, made a record and wrote a song that was nominated for two Grammy Awards.
- Became an acupuncturist and worked with Bee Therapy.
http://www.forever-Amber-Rose.com
http://www.lyme-beevenom.com/
Farmworker songs https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q7cg4zqyplwsj9p/AADzAzwL6VG_ChCe2sugaF5Za?dl=0
Subscribe to the Women of the Northwest podcast for inspiring stories and adventures.
Find me on my website: jan-johnson.com
Welcome to episode 15
Today’s guest is Amber Rose, author of When I Am Ashes.
She worked in the first Montessori School.
Worked with Bruno Bettelheim and became a social worker,
wrote songs that touched people's heart singing with Joan Baez, Pete Seeger, Peter, Paul and Mary,
Worked with the United Farmworkers and Cesar Chavez,
made a record and wrote a song that was nominated for two Grammy Awards.
Became an acupuncturist and worked with Bee Therapy.
Morning Glory, Heather Heyer, Sing out folk magazine
http://www.forever-Amber-Rose.com
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q7cg4zqyplwsj9p/AADzAzwL6VG_ChCe2sugaF5Za?dl=0
Amber-Rose
Jan Johnson
0:07
Are you looking for an inspiring Listen, something to motivate you? You've come to the right place. Welcome to women of the Northwest where we have conversations with ordinary women leading extraordinary lives. Motivating, inspiring, compelling
Jan Johnson
0:23
Hello,
Amber Rose, so nice to have you here with us today.
Amber
0:28
Thank you.
Jan Johnson
0:29
I heard about you from an article
in the Daily Astorian that was featuring
your book, some of the things that you've done before were worked in the first Montessori School.
You work with Bruno Bettelheimand became a social worker, you wrote songs that touched people's heart singing with Joan Baez,
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_Baez),
Pete
Seeger, Peter,
Paul and Mary, you work with the United Farmworkers and Cesar Chavez,
and you made a record and wrote a song that was nominated for two Grammy Awards. You wrote a book called When I Am Ashes.
That is a lot of things to accomplish. And that's a lot of really interesting, amazing people to have worked with.
Amber
1:10
Yes,
Jan
Johnson
1:11
that's just boggles my mind. I count it a privilege to even get to know you. You squeezed a lot into a short period of time.
Amber
1:22
My problem
is that I have what I call the Schindler's List complex, where, you know, Schindler felt like he could have saved more Jews during the Holocaust. And no matter how much I do, I keep thinking, I'm not doing enough. I get to turn 75 and I'm thinking, Oh, my gosh, I don't have enough time left.
Jan Johnson
1:45
And this is why when I read your article, I thought you are one of those extraordinary people it should be on my podcast.
Jan Johnson
1:55
When I Am Ashes,
a novel by Amber Rose. How could a 130-year-old painting
in a Paris museum galvanize a hunt for Nazi war criminal? In June of 1938, Sasha will falls in love with a painting and a man. But in August, Sasha discovers that her father's been murdered by a Nazi at Camp Sigfriedin America. She vows to bring this Nazi to justice, even though this means she won't be able to return to France to be with their soulmate. 25 years later, her son Peter, who inherits his mother's obsession becomes a Nazi hunter in Italy. This culminates in a Nazi war crimes tribunal with real life characters Simon Weisenthal,
Dr. Hannah Arndt, Dr. Hans Munch,
and Mengele twins,
all playing an important role. But when a mysterious figure appears in the courtroom, Sasha realizes that she might not have everything figured out after all.
Jan Johnson
2:55
When I am ashes by Amber,
Rose braids, love and suspense, good and evil and life and death to unravel family secrets and expose to monasteries, part of the Nazi ratlines, which had Adolf Eichmann and Josef Mengele after World War Two, this drama will appeal to all concerned with the rise of anti-semitism
and white supremacy in today's landscape.
Jan Johnson
3:22
Let's talk about your book a little
bit. So, your book was called When I Am Ashes. That was interesting, interesting, but I never even knew anything about the whole New York Nazi business there. I'd never ever heard of that before.
Amber
3:39
Yes, Camp Sigfried
was on Long Island. And they had rallies at Madison Square Garden, and then put the kids or the children to go to this camp on trains. And they went to Yaphank, New York, on Long Island, and they went to camps in free, and they pledged allegiance to Hitler, Nazi flags and regalia, so they had to wear Nazi uniforms.
Jan Johnson
4:11
And how did they gather
the children?
Amber
4:14
Well, the American
Nazi Party or the German bunch, the parents wanted the children to be educated. And so, they brought them to Madison Square Garden for the rallies.
Jan Johnson
4:30
Okay, so it was the group of the white supremacists.
Amber
4:34
Exactly,
yes.
Jan Johnson
4:36
Okay. All right.
Amber
4:37
They bought
some land. And they set it up as a camp, but it did have streets with houses on them. And but there was a big field where they could have rallies and, you know, they were they had bungalows, you know, for the kids to sleep in, just sleep over. And like some of the names of streets would be Himmler plaza, Hitler plots, you know, things like that, but it was actual streets. Real streets. They have since obviously changed the names of those streets, but those streets still exist in New York.
Jan Johnson
5:18
You had done some studies
about that whole era and the whole Nazi thing. Tell us a little bit about that. What motivated you to write it?
Amber
5:27
When I was 12 years old, my parents
took me and my two best friends to see the Diary of Anne Frank. And I walked in as a young 12-year-old girl, very naive.
And I came out of that movie, as a young woman with a mission. And because Anne Frank died, I felt not that I, at that point believed in reincarnation or anything like that. But just somehow, I felt like I was in Frank,
I was born shortly after she died. And I felt like I had to carry on her mission, which was, I still believe that people are really good at heart. You know, that does not mean that they're good people on both sides. It doesn't mean that at all. What I'm trying to say is that someone who was hiding in an attic, who is writing in her diary, saying she believed that people were good at heart, knowing that there are people out there, you know, who were trying to find them, or trying to, to kill other Jews, or other people, not just Jews, but gypsies and, you know, homosexual, and anybody who Hitler and his henchmen felt were deplorable, let's say she was hiding. And she found a way to overcome her fear, which is quite incredible for, you know, a teenager, right. And she died in Bergen Belsen.
Amber
7:05
And I met somebody
who was in Bergen Belsen with her. And I asked them if, up until the last minute that she still believes that people were really good at heart. And they said, Yes. Wow, do you still believe that, but there's another part of the quote that people don't know about most people. And with my background, and my interest in Holocaust history and studies, the second half of that sentence is about some people. And maybe all of us, on some level have to go through a metamorphosis, so that we become good at heart, even if it takes us our whole lives. Yeah, I have spent my life trying to find the good in every person that I've met. And my goal is, you know, souls answer to suffering. You know, it's like to find a way into that soul, that other person that I'm having an interaction with, and right now I'm talking to you, but other people are, you know, going to listen, like to find a way into, into someone's heart into someone so by by being able to be a good listener, and be compassionate, and to build rapport in such a way that that you can make a difference for that person. And, in a sense, it's like alchemy. It's like taking the very thing that's at the heart of the problem and flipping it and turning it into something beautiful, a beautiful jewel.
Amber
8:51
So that's
what I've spent my life doing. But as basically as Anne Frank, you know, what I feel to be an ambassador for her. Because, you know, she didn't get a chance to live out her whole life.
Jan Johnson
9:12
Right,
right. Yeah. I always think it's just amazing how certain people have lived their lives and still continue to live and motivate people long after they're gone.
Amber
9:25
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly. And she's one of the one of those people are attending. Same thing. Yeah. In many states. Now, it is required to teach Holocaust history by sixth grade, or, you know, not in every state, but in many states, it is required. And, you know, I've been fascinated with people. I mean, you mentioned I work for Bruno Bettelheim, I've been fascinated by people who were in concentration camps and survived and one of those people and she herself went through a metamorphosis as you will see the kind of metamorphosis I think Anne Frank was talking about. Her name was Eva Mozes Kor, and she survived because she and her sister Miriam, were twins. And so, they were part of Mengeles experimental twin group. And
Amber
10:28
she walked
out of Auschwitz on January 27, which is coming up the anniversary, in '45. She was freed by the Russians. You know, she and her sister are one of the first children walking out from the barbed wire, wearing the Striped Pajamas that are in a lot of the documents.
Jan Johnson
10:50
Right.
Amber
10:50
She was 10 years old, and she turned 11. A few days later, she spent most of her life a good part of many decades, being angry, saying that just because she was free of the Nazis didn't mean she was free of the pain. They inflicted upon her. And she was bitter. And she talks at, you know, schools, and she talked about not being bystanders and, you know, and and standing up to bullies.
Amber
11:24
But at a certain
point when her sister died, her sister Miriam died in Israel. And she was living in Indiana at the time. And she decided that she wanted to find out what Dr. Mengele was injecting all the children, although twins, because her sister, you know, had kidneys that were like of a 10-year-old girl. So, she ended up giving
her sister one of her kidneys. She met a man named Dr. Hans Munch, who I mentioned in the book, right you were talking about? She found out that he was a Nazi doctor who was exonerated at Nuremberg. So, she decided if he was at Auschwitz, that she wanted to go find him and find out what Dr. Mengele injected, right.
Jan Johnson
12:25
Oh, yeah.
Amber
12:25
I mean, she already had, she knew she had TB, and other things. But when she met Dr. Munch in Bavaria, she asked him what had he been doing since the end of the war? And he said, That's my problem. And she said, What do you mean? He said, I have nightmares about Auschwitz. And she said, a Nazi doctor. Yeah, I had nightmares about Auschwitz. How could that be? And eventually, on the 50th anniversary, she brought him she brought him to Auschwitz on the 50th anniversary. And she gave him basically, a letter of forgiveness. She wanted to give him a gift, really, what he was going to do was to combat the Holocaust deniers, he was going to say that there were crematoriums there that, you know, our strengths, as is known and understood and seen in movies, and documentaries, that it really happened. And, you know, people were burnt alive. You know, when I'm ashes is somewhat of a comment on that, you know, ashes. Someone said, where are my parents? And they pointed to the smokestacks, you know, right. The ashes that were in the sky were either decided she was going to forgive. Dr. Munch. That was our gift to him. Because he did this favor for her to come to Auschwitz and the other Mengele twins were not happy about it.
Jan Johnson
14:
Yeah.
Amber
14:07
So someone
said to her, well, Eva, you've forgiven Dr. Munch. Can you forgive Dr. Mengele?
Jan Johnson
14:16
Yeah.
Amber
14:17
And she said, I have to think about it. This is that metamorphosis
that Anne Frank talked about. That anger, that bitterness, that resentment that was in her heart that was burning a hole in her heart and killing her and being very hurtful to her was not healthy. It felt toxic. And she decided it's not that what Dr. Mengele or the Nazis did, was okay, it wasn't okay for herself, that she had to find a way to forgive Dr. Mengele because it was easy
Amber
15:02
And there is a movie that was done a documentary that was done about Eva Mozes Kor,
and it's called forgiving Dr. Mengele. And it's free on YouTube. So, it's called forgiving Dr. Mengele. And it's, it's about her journey to forgiveness. And it's very controversial. I actually went with her, my husband and I went with her to Auschwitz, on the 65th anniversary. It was an amazing journey. It was, I don't know if I could do it again. But and I don't know myself, if it had been me, if I could flip it into forgiveness.
Jan Johnson
15:44
That takes a lot of grace.
Amber
15:46
Yes. And a lot of people
are angry with her. And it takes a lot of courage to do that. But it was liberating for her. And so she spent the rest of her life talking about forgiveness.
Jan Johnson
16:01
All of the anger that you hold isn't hurting
that person that hurt you.
Amber
16:08
Right, right inside sort of like revenge be free of it. Yeah, if you're after Revenge, you better dig two graves, you know, because one is through yourself, the other person, that other person is not alive anymore, you know. So, it's, it's within your consciousness that you need to flip it. So, each
of us, you know, needs to go through that metamorphosis, whatever it is, for all of us. And my journey is to find the goodness in every soul. Whose life I touch.
Jan Johnson
16:45
Yeah, yeah. So powerful.
That is such a good word.
Amber
16:51
When I was six years old, we moved to Mount Vernon,
New York. I know it sounds like I'm going way back in time. There was a family that lived up the street from the cleats. And Johnny Clay was just a year younger than me, went to England to study acupuncture. I was a social worker, and I was seeing patients and some of those patients were stuck, or they couldn't move emotionally from a stuck place. So, what happened was that these patients had huge breakthroughs. And they were going to Maryland where acupuncture was legal, and they were getting unstuck. They were having breakthroughs that I couldn't help them with talk therapy. Yeah, you know, even though I was good at what I did say needed something more that I couldn't do.
Amber
17:52
So I had a choice.
Do I become an acupuncturist? Do I send them to the acupuncturist. a psychotherapist, my friend, Johnny Klei, who had lived up the street from me when I was six years old. He was practicing in Amherst, Massachusetts. He was coming to the DC area. And I asked him if I could meet him for dinner. And I said to him, do you think that I would make a good acupuncturist? Yeah. And he paused, and it was like a pregnant pause. And I thought to myself, Oh, he's probably gonna say it's some good social workers and therapists and but he didn't say that. What he said was, I know who you are.
Amber
18:47
I know you respect
my opinion. So I am saying this, because I really believe it. He said, I can't imagine anyone being better than you. Wow, excellent. Lightning struck. No, I never turned back.
Jan Johnson
19:06
But he was certainly
he was very influential for you
Amber
19:10
from the USA had like a connection.
He knew that I was a perfectionist.
Jan Johnson
19:17
He knew that we know he would be jumping in with your whole self.
Amber
19:22
Yes, reinventing
myself one more time. Uh huh. So I went to acupuncture school. I have to take a pencil and subtract 1947. And when I entered school, it was so I was 37.
Jan Johnson
19:40
So at 37 You weren't
afraid to change careers?
Amber
19:45
Well, I had done it so many times.
before. You know I was taught at the first Montessori School I you know, I worked with Bruno Bettelheim, my, I, you know, I've worked with drug addicts and alcoholics. I got my masters just in social work, and then it just was a natural thing.
Jan Johnson
20:03
Where did where in that timeline
did the work with the farmworkers come in?
Amber
20:08
Um, the Farm Workers
started around 1971.I wasn't born with a name Amber. I chose the name Amber for myself. It was a secret. And I promised myself that when I grew up, I was going to change my name to Amber because I just thought it was so beautiful.
Jan Johnson
20:28
Uh huh
Amber
20:29
My name was Judith
or Judy. I was teased daily, Judy, and various things that kids can be mean. And I had some physical ailments that they teased me about anybody who was bullied. I was, you know, inviting home for lunch. Anybody with hearing aids and crutches, you know, they were having lunch with me. So, when
they go to that link, when I worked with the Farmworkers, the name that that's under there would be Judy Rose, hyphen, redwood, redwood, because that was my married name at the time.
Amber
21:09
One of the songs that we wrote for the farmworkers,
like you mentioned, was part of a collection nominated for two Grammys, like 30 years after we wrote it. I will tell this story about Joan Baez. I started singing with Joan Baez, in around 1971. Shortly before I started working with the farmworkers, I was in San Diego and my husband and I, at the time, were sitting on a blanket, what I loved was, you know, touching people's hearts when we sang that the words were so meaningful and profound that they were moved, they cried, and they came and hugged me. So, we were sitting on a blanket in a city park in San Diego. And we were practicing for our opening act for Joan Baez. And all of a sudden, Joan Baez without a guitar, just by herself, came and sat down on our blanket.
Amber
22:14
that was the first time we met her in person.
For real. We had sat on a blanket outside of her house. Many, many times before that, yeah. But this was something where she approached us. And it was just because we had a guitar, you know, and I had a dulcimer, but I don't think she knew who we were. The instant she sat down we stopped
a rehearsal. And we sang a song that we wrote for her.
Amber
22:49
And her husband
had gone to jail because he had burned his draft cord. And then she gave birth to Gabriel while he was in prison. So we had heard before we went to California, that David, her husband, David Harris had gotten out of jail.
Jan Johnson
23:08
Okay.
Amber
23:09
And so we wrote a song for Joan and David and their young child,
Gabriel, looking out at the Pacific Ocean, you know, with a, a young one by their side. And we started to sing that song. We just instantly knew that what we should do for her as a gift. Her tears just streamed down. And I think if she and David had stayed together, we probably would have accomplished that mission of having Joan Baez sing our songs. There was a time that my father was visiting. And we were singing at a coffee shop on campus at Stanford. And my father was in the audience. And Joan Baez was in the audience, too. But we didn't know it. She came up with her guitar, and she backed us up. How, you know, not a lot of people can say that.
Amber
24:15
Yeah, so and a benefit
record, but it was like with the farmworkers room and board and $5 a week.
Jan Johnson
24:24
Describe
what it was like with the farm workers. what things were like at that time. I mean, that's like 50 years ago now. And in the 70s.
Amber
24:32
Yeah, it was in about 72. We were singing
antiwar songs at a Unitarian
Church. And we were approached by a man who was working with a Farmworkers named Kitt Brica. After the service, he said, Would you be willing to write some songs for the farmworkers and their struggles so and we said, Of course, this young woman Nancy Freemanwas 18 years old, was killed on a farmworkers picket line in Belle Glade, Florida. Now, we're in Palo Alto, California, you know, but we're writing a song we were asked to write a song. And we were given details. Like she was 18 years old. They called her Morning Glory details about the strike. Like the man who owned the sugar field, the cane fields in Belle Glade. Same man, he owned the sugar mill, but there was a picket line. And so they were trying to get the truckers not to cross the picket line. Bring a sugar cane to the factory to be processed. Nan Freeman went with her entire class from the New School in Sarasota, Florida. And in the middle of the night, at three o'clock in the morning, there were maybe 20 students in their professor on that picket line, and a truck backed up into her and crushed her.
Jan Johnson
26:06
Oh, my
Amber
26:07
like Heather Heyerin Charlottesville. We sang on picket lines, we did home home concerts, a we made that little benefit record and did house concerts and sold the record for $1. We traveled all across the United States, all the radio stations, TV stations, all the churches, you know, and we ended up in the Boston area, where Nan Freeman's parents, where we sang it, her synagogue, we sang at a Unitarian Church there, the first few times her mother left the room in the middle of the song, but by the last time she was able to stay through the whole song, and we slept in her daughter's bedroom.
Jan Johnson
26:07
Oh, my,
Amber
26:20
and she gave me some of her things,
you know, clothing. And it wasn't something just out there that we were writing a song that we weren't living, right where we living it. we're on the picket line. It's we were we were singing to raise awareness for farmworkers. And they're applied and, and in between the songs, we would tell stories, like, you know, they don't have bathrooms in the field.
Amber
27:27
If you cut yourself,
when you're in the field in Salinas, that cut doesn't heal, because they have airplanes that fly over and braise the crops. And it gets on the cut, and the cut never heals.
Jan Johnson
27:44
Right,
Amber
27:44
you know, so we would tell the stories
of the different farm workers we met. There was a farm worker we never met, his name was Romulo. And he was murdered by a grower on an almond field. His funeral was the next day he was shot on a picket line by the grower. We went to the funeral, we wrote a song and we sang it the next day. In some ways, it was the highlight of my life working with the farmworkers. Yeah for me was about healing
Amber
30:03
My grandfather,
Nathan Fisher came to the United States when he was seven, teen. And if he hadn't come, you know, we, my whole family would have, you know, died in Auschwitz or something like that. But he was a skinny little old Jewish man who weighed about 90 pounds. And I was the oldest grandchild. And he used to hug me and say, I'm such a rich man
Amber
30:33
That sentence
found its way into that song about Nan Freeman, some lives are all about, you know, getting riches and others, you know, about, yeah, you know, gold, but the lives that are given out in sharing, these are the richest ones will ever know. Now, that was something that came from my grandfather, when he hugged me, that I got from my grandfather, you knowing that he felt I was precious. And
Amber
31:06
I guess I felt like you know, because
I was so lonely, that I wanted people to see that I was special, or there was something meaningful about me, unique. And but I realized that it wasn't really about other people. Knowing that I was special. All I needed was for me to know.
Jan Johnson
31:30
Tell us a little
bit about your Bee therapies.
Amber
31:32
On June 23 1993. For the first time in my life, I asked for a sign. I looked
up to the heavens. So I was living in Bethesda, Maryland. And the Washington Post kept getting delivered to the house. And I just come out of an abusive relationship. And I was alone. What happened was the phone rang. And it was my sister.
Amber
32:00
And she said, Maybe you should
look for a part time job. There was a hospital around the corner and I thought, well, maybe I could get a social work job. You know, at the hospital, I opened up to the Style section and there was a man carrying the lifeless body of a woman who I made an assumption was his wife. And I took one look at it. And I started to cry like Joan Baez started to cry on the blanket. I didn't know what the story was about. I didn't know who they were, didn't even read the title of the article. I just looked at it and said, I asked for sign. I'm crying. And whatever this is, that's going to be the next right thing for me to do.
Jan Johnson
32:48
Yeah.
Amber
32:49
Then I read the title of the article.
And instead of hope, Springs Eternal, it was hope, Stings Eternal. It was a story about a woman with MS who was now able to walk because or her husband was stinging her with honeybees. And then she opened up a free clinic to anybody with MS or anything. It was sort of like Lourdes, you know, people are coming in droves. This was really my mission. You know, this became my life's work. I called up this woman, Jennifer, who was being stung. And I said, Is it the lady who's singing you that's in the paper? She said, Yes. I said, What are you going next? She said tomorrow, I said, Can I come with you?
Amber
33:39
That's
how it started. And then Connie Chung, Peter Jennings, CNN. I mean, everybody was at this house. What's important about that was that I was thinking maybe you could sing in the acupuncture points, and it would be even more powerful, not just doing works. Within two weeks, this woman was feeling burnt out, because of all the publicity, and she asked me if I would be willing to open up my house for a free clinic. They asked for another sign I asked, I look to the heavens, and I said, Okay, you know, I'm ready, please have. And so it went forward. And, you know, I've had a free clinic. I had it in Bethesda to begin with, which is amazing where Jesus, you know, healed. Had the sick at the pool of Bethesda.
Jan Johnson
34:28
Yeah.
Amber
34:28
So it was like, you know, my interfaith
ministry was this, you know, free clinic.
Jan Johnson
34:34
If somebody
was interested in knowing more about that, where would they look
Amber
34:38
I have a couple
of books. The first one is Be in Balance. And on Amazon. There's some other books. This one is called Pioneers, and specifically, you know, using bee venom therapy for Lyme disease. But the truth is, it's really for anything chronic. I have a website. lyme-beevenom.com . And people can look on that website, there are videos, there are links to articles, I do consultations. In conclusion, it's, it's a line from a Spanish poem by Machado. And it goes like this.
Amber
35:27
Last night,
I dreamed Oh, marvelous one, that there were honey bees in my heart, making honey out of my old failures.
Amber
35:43
So anything really that's you feel is a failure. It's going back to the Pearl of Great Price. You know, that your chin that that feeling like you made a mistake, you did something wrong. I think the thing that's at the heart of your pain, your failures, where you feel like you're struggling and make it into a place of wear your strong
amour.
Jan Johnson
36:07
this has just been so wonderful. I'm just so delighted to have met you and I thank you so much for this interview. I think this is going to be one that people really enjoy and share.
Amber
36:16
One of your questions
at the very end was what brings you joy? And my grandchildren. It really is. That's the one place in the middle of this crazy world that we're living in.
Jan Johnson
36:32
Yeah, this is just so fun. It's just, it's really
enriches my life.
Amber
When we met Pete Seger. I mean, I met Pete Seeger when I was eight years old. As an adult, and I sang in his living room. He loved that song that was nominated for the two Grammys and that's why it was nominated. Because he sent us two Broadside Records. And they record there were two magazines. One was Broadside one was Sing Out New York for folk songs. We ended up with a Broadside and then the Smithsonian have bought all the records and all the magazines, and the man who was putting it together from the Smithsonian said that ours was his favorite song. Oh, at best songs from Broadside Records from the 1960s to the 80s
Jan
Johnson
37:29
and what a legacy!
Amber
37:30
I'll go well go well go deep in the heart of America. The struggle goes on and on and oh my god, it's still going on.
38:22
I'm Jan Johnson,
your host I hope you enjoyed this episode with Amber Rose as much as I enjoyed recording it. She had a life well lived. You can find links to her books and music in the show notes. Until next time.