Lymphedema Victim Siobhan Huggins: Health & Hope thru Keto - #63

Siobhan Huggins grew up with a negative self-image. At 18, she was obese and developed depression. Whenever she tried a new diet, her depression symptoms would get worse. Later on, she was diagnosed with lipedema.

Her mom encouraged her to learn more about the ketogenic diet. She decided to do keto strictly for 2 months. The changes she experienced - from losing weight to improving her mental health - made her stick with it. This gave her the drive to research more about its benefits.

Siobhan knew how the ketogenic diet became instrumental to the improvement of her physical health and mental wellness. The presence of the keto community reminded her that she was not alone in this journey and that kept her going. In this episode, Siobhan shares that amidst her obesity, depression, and lipedema, her choice to do a carnivore diet and the support system of the community contributed big time to where she is now, and she continues to give back to help others too.

Quick Guide:
01:06 Introduction
02:23 Younger years and struggle with negativity
09:42 Adapting to the ketogenic diet
16:57 Her mindset on how she approached the change in diet
19:33 The Cholesterol Code and David Feldman
25:29 How ketogenic diet help in her depression
36:01 Physical effects of the ketogenic diet
37:11 Self-experiment with fasting and finding about lipedema
42:31 What happens with people who have lipedema
1:01:09 How the diet affects the experience of lipedema
1:08:44 How her day-to-day life is

Get to know our guest:
Siobhan Huggins is a citizen scientist. She is involved in research and learning to help increase awareness about what people are dealing with - from ketogenic diet, inflammation, and metabolic health, among others. have personally experienced the benefits of ketogenic and carnivore diet.

“So, the social anxiety was, I think, like a thought pattern habit in a way that I had to undo. And I largely did that at my first few conference. So, I was practicing, like going up and talking to people. And like giving myself new information with a clear head, like, this is how people react when you talk to them and ask them questions. And they were always super happy and friendly and glad to talk to me and happy to have me in the community. And so that really, like planted the seeds for me to have a healthier mindset. ” - Siobhan Huggins

Connect with her:
Twitter: https://twitter.com/siob

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Theme Song : Rage Against
Written & Performed by Logan Gritton & Colin Gailey
(c) 2016 Mercury Retro Recordings

Transcript

S3E09: Siobhan Huggins 

SUMMARY KEYWORDS 

lymphedema, people, fat, ketogenic diet, started, Siobhan, connective tissue, talking, eat, swelling, keto, aspect, lymphatic system, cholesterol, happen, calories, improved, depression symptoms, point, experiment 

SPEAKERS 

Announcer, Jack Heald, Siobhan Huggins, Dr. Philip Ovadia 

Announcer  00:10 

He was a morbidly obese surgeon destined for an operating table and an early death. Now he's a rebel MD who is Fabulously Fit and fighting to make America healthy again. This is Stay Off My Operating Table with Dr. Philip Ovadia. 

Jack Heald  00:37 

And we are back for episode something, something of I can't... I've tracked it, Phil, but I don't remember we're 60 some odd episodes now. This is the Stay Off My Operating Table podcast with Dr. Philip Ovadia. I'm the co-host, Jack Heald, the talking head and we have today somebody that I'm really looking forward to hearing from. Phil, please tell us about this person that's here, and why she's here. And then we'll hear her story. 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  01:06 

Sure thing, and I've been looking forward to having this discussion with our guests, Siobhan Huggins, for quite a while now. I first met Siobhan, I don't know, it's got to be for probably about four years ago at one of my first low carb conferences. And Siobhan is I guess what we would call a citizen scientist, who like many of us in this space was facing her own issues around health, and wasn't getting the result she was looking for, and started doing her own research. And that has led her down many interesting pathway. Siobhan has certainly gone deeper than most into the research, and really has become one of the leaders, I would say in the research around ketogenic diet and some of their unique benefits, which we will get into during this discussion. But before I say too much, let me turn it over to Siobhan so she can tell us her story, her background, and then we can get into all of the interesting research that she is currently doing. 

Siobhan Huggins  02:23 

Yeah, so I would say, going as far back as I can remember, basically, the latest time in my childhood, I remember being mentally healthy and happy, I would say was probably kindergarten. So, I distinctly remember, it was pretty, pretty normal at that point. But by the age of nine, I had started to develop depression symptoms. And by 11, it was full blown. So, reading over journals at that time period, you could basically go through and be like, check, check, check, check on all the symptoms and behavior that I was showing. So that was pretty difficult. And I do have journals from that time that I've read over, because it's kind of fascinating at this point. Already by then I was body shaming myself, because I had also started to gain weight around the same time, I'm talking about very severe calorie restriction at 11 years old, which is the sad to think about now. And really just insulting myself and having a very negative self-image, having trouble interacting with others, like my peers. And I would end up in these like rumination loops of I would have this interaction with someone and then I would keep going over it again and again, and again, in my head, like you did this wrong, you did that wrong. Like they don't like you anymore. Nobody actually likes you, like all of that. And that continued up until about six years ago and change pretty much. And it didn't get any better. And it continued and started. I mean, it was bad. Like just all around bad. But when I was working my first job in IT, and it was the same thing. I had issues, kind of interacting with coworkers and managers and just navigating all of that because it was just a constant trap of negativity and self-hatred and just a lot of struggles. And I didn't talk about it much, because it's like, I thought it was normal. And everybody felt that way. And they were just better at hiding it than I was. And so, since I had been a child, I was also working on hiding it because I didn't want to bother other people with what I realized later was very serious depression and at the same time, which didn't help at all, by the time I was 18, I was obese. And at that time, I was 240 pounds. And I'm 5’2. So that's a lot on my frame. And I was very aware of it. And I wouldn't really say it was anything like, oh, I saw like pretty women on magazines. And I'm like, that was the reason I had self-negative image. I think it was comparing myself to my peers. And because I knew I was different. And I felt different, and I didn't like it. And so, I had always been trying to lose weight. Like I said, even when I was 11, I was trying to cut back on desserts and cut back on calories. And like all of this stuff, especially because in high school, they had nutrition classes. And it was, if you're overweight, you need to cut calories, eat high carb, all this stuff. And so, I was genuinely trying to do that. But the problem was when I was calorie restricting, especially when it was very severe, it would make the depression symptoms worse. And it would cause really severe mood swings. And unfortunately, the person who got the brunt of that was my boyfriend, who is still my boyfriend now. So, he obviously stuck around, but like it would happen, and I would be self-aware that it was happening. But it's not like you can tell yourself like you're being irrational, like you've had this conversation 12 times already, just stop doing it. Like it just doesn't work that way. And so, I would be having these mood swings. And then I would also be feeling awful, because I was subjecting loved ones to that. And it was just again, another spiral of negativity basically. And the other aspect of it was when I cut calories, I was hungry, like I was already hungry when I wasn't cutting calories, and then I would cut calories, and I would get even hungrier. And I would lose a little bit of weight, but it would come back. And so, the next time I cut calories, I would go even lower. And at the final phase of that before I finally found a ketogenic diet, I was aiming for 800 calories a day, because I was like this has to do something. And it was awful. 

Siobhan Huggins  07:25 

I wouldn't recommend it, especially if it makes you that miserable. So, I was struggling with this mental illness, and also struggling with obesity. And I didn't know what to do. Like I had tried to do what I was told to do, and it wasn't working. And it was causing even more self-blame, like clearly you are doing something wrong. Because this is the only advice that there is pretty much. And when I was, this was in 2016. So, it was like 21, 20-something like that. I went into my mom's office and I told her I was going to start cutting calories again, I was kind of looking for yeah, you go like, go ahead and try and get healthy again. It's a constant struggle, whatever. But she actually told me instead of doing that, like very gently, I've been looking into this ketogenic diet, and she was looking into it for her own reasons. But she said that she had come across a good amount of information that it was actually really helpful for weight loss. And I was kind of skeptical at first, because the resource she handed me just because she had it on hand was one of those magazines that are like, near the checkout aisles. And it's like, this is not really trustworthy information. She's like, no, no, just like, go look into it, like this, I just had this, so whatever. So, I did go and I looked it up online. And I felt like I should at least look into it because my mom is not stupid. She's one of the smartest people I know. So, it's like, she's not going to recommend this for no reason. She's never recommended me a diet before like this never happened. So, I did look into it. And I did find that there was some good information that it might be helpful for weight loss, and I came across like subreddits that were talking about people who'd had success with it and all that. So, I decided that I would try a ketogenic diet really strict, no cheating. I'm a big rule follower. And I guess like even then I set it up as an experiment for myself. Like we're gonna do this and we're gonna see what happens and we'll reevaluate at that point. 

Jack Heald  09:35 

Had you been involved in any kind of any form of biohacking other than calorie restriction? Prior to keto? 

Siobhan Huggins  09:42 

Yeah, so I wouldn't really say biohacking necessarily, but I had been vegetarian for like a year when I was 14, 15. And, I mean, I had tried some whole food-based approaches, trying for higher carb because I had seen that recommended and it just hadn't done much. And the same with the calorie restriction, like the things I was trying just wasn't working. And it was incredibly frustrating, especially because I knew other family members had been through that same process of trying different things over and over and over again, and not getting anywhere. It's like, I don't want that to be my life. But at the same time, it's like, what is the alternative? There's nothing else. Um, but yeah, so I had decided to try a ketogenic diet for two months, really strict. And if it works, then even at the beginning, I was like, if this works, then I'm just sticking with it forever, because I don't ever want to go back to where I am. And I did that. And at the end of the two months, I had lost 20 pounds, I think, and I had lost 20 pounds before. Like, that wasn't anything new. But it had been so easy. And I hadn't felt like I was restricting myself at all. And it was like, wow. And it's like, I had foods that I would eat normally, like dog pioneer different types of curries and stuff, I will just adapt them to keto, like, okay, I'm eating this stuff now. So, I was pretty happy with just how easy it was. And one of the things I had focused on in the beginning was memorizing really low carb ingredients. So, I didn't have to continue tracking, because I really, really hated tracking. Yeah, so it's like, this is a barrier for me. So, I'm going to tackle this as soon as possible so that I have to deal with it. And that was pretty successful. And, but at the end of the two months, the thing that was like really cinched it for me like, okay, this is the thing for me is I had been standing in a parking lot of like a farm store that I had gone to with my mom. And I had to like, pause for a second because I was, I had a feeling and I didn't know what it was. So, I was trying to examine it. And I realized after a second that I was content with my life, and I was grateful for my friends and grateful for my family and grateful for my boyfriend and grateful for my life, and really happy with myself for the first time since probably kindergarten. And I realized that I was not pressed like at all. And there were still I think, lingering issues that I had to work through. Like one of the issues with depression is that it caused that ruminating. And that resulted in social anxiety. So, the social anxiety was, I think, like a thought pattern habit in a way that I had to undo. And I largely did that at my first few conference. So, I was practicing, like going up and talking to people. And like giving myself new information with a clear head, like, this is how people react when you talk to them and ask them questions. And they were always super happy and friendly and glad to talk to me and happy to have me in the community. And so that really, like planted the seeds for me to have a healthier mindset. And I do like still sometimes have a little bit of social anxiety, but it's something I can be like, yeah, whatever. It's fine. Like you're overthinking it, don't worry about it. 

Jack Heald  13:24 

Phil, did you... We focus primarily on the health benefits, on the physical changes, the physical transformations that occur. And I'm aware that when people get physically healthy, they're likely to become more mentally, to have to have a mental boost as well. But we have you and I haven't ever really talked about this, did you experience a mental and emotional, a permanent mental and emotional lift, as you began seeing the pounds melt off and I mean, what Siobhan’s reporting here is almost a personality transformation. Or at least how you met the world has shifted. Did you have the same thing? 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  14:22 

I certainly noticed a change in my mindset, I would say and I certainly was not starting from anywhere near as difficult to place as Siobhan was. But I certainly notice and continue to notice that, I describe it as a more even kind of approach to life or more even mood and perhaps not as prone to becoming agitated and angry are some of the things I noted, and then the mental clarity. And of course, we had Chris Palmer on talking about this, we've had a few other guests who had mentioned that and it is a very real effect of improving metabolic health. And it warrants further discussion for further explanation, further scientific exploration, I guess I should say, to try and explain what is exactly going on there. One of the things that I find most interesting about your story Siobhan is you were pretty young when this was all, when you kind of came to the ketogenic diet, you were, I believe, late teens or early 20s, when this was sort of going on. And you, I think, had more insight than most into your condition, your state of being, you kind of notice these changes that perhaps many people wouldn't, but you also kind of came at it with a very scientific approach. And I'm just wondering what was your thinking as you were starting this, as you were going through it, you kind of mentioned that you were skeptical at the beginning, and your mom had basically bought you one of those supermarket tabloids to introduce this. But yet, you were open to trying it, obviously. And then I think you had a very analytic approach as you went through it. And that leads into a lot of what you're doing today, obviously, as well. So, I'd love to hear more about that sort of mindset, how you were approached this. 

Siobhan Huggins  16:57 

Yeah, I guess that's just in my personality, maybe, like, I tend to get a little bit obsessive about things, if you haven't noticed. And I just wanted to make sure it was going to work. And so, I knew if I kind of went into it halfhearted and had like, a cheat day every week, or something like that, it might have made it more difficult for me, and it could have interfered with the results. And then I could be missing out on something that could actually be helpful. Because I had seen some papers published on low carb diet and subreddits, just like I mentioned, with people talking about their experience with it. And so, I was like, okay, well, I have to really give this a good try. For one, my mom recommended it. And so, it kind of has a plus one next to it, like a little bit more credibility. And I was also seeing similar experiences from other people and some in the published research. And I just wanted it to work. And in order for that to happen, I had to be really strict about it. And the other thing is, I think, like when there's gray areas for me, it just gets a lot more complicated. So, I want really easy to understand rules, like okay, a ketogenic diet is under 20 grams of carbs. And around when I started, mom still gave me a copy of The Obesity Code. And so, I was like, I'm not going to calorie restrict either. I'm going to eat until full every single meal, I'll eat when hungry, I'll not eat when not hungry. It was kind of easy to follow, like, Okay, here's what I'm gonna do. I know exactly what I'm doing. It's not confusing. I can easily look at a thing and be like, Okay, that's not on my plan, like that is gonna mess this up. And it just made it easier for me, I think. So that's why I did it that way is I wanted to see if it really did work. And I wanted it to be as easy to understand as possible, because it was this new thing, like I had no experience with low carb diets at all. So yeah, I think it was just like, my brain is kind of weird. 

Jack Heald  19:00 

I know we kind of dropped into the middle of your story there. But I have an undisciplined promiscuous curiosity. And I want to follow up on the emotional and mental changes. I know that you now have a roll with what is it the carnivore code? 

Siobhan Huggins  19:21 

So, there's the cholesterol code. Yeah. 

Jack Heald  19:26 

And that is, well, why don't you explain what the cholesterol code is? Because that will lay the groundwork for my follow up question. 

Siobhan Huggins  19:33 

Yeah, so The Cholesterol Code is a blog that was started by Dave Feldman, I think in like 2016 or something, maybe earlier than that. But it's kind of funny because a lot of my origin story goes back to Ketofest, which was a ketogenic festival, basically like a big party that took place in New London, Connecticut in summer of 2017. And I got involved with that, because I had been an admin for the ketogenic forums. And that was run by the same people who were putting on Ketofest. So, I went there a staff. And I actually went there with my mom. And some of my experiences there actually have an interesting, like reflection point that we'll circle back around to so I can actually answer your question first. So that was actually where I met Dave Feldman for the first time. So, I knew of him in passing, because he was also an admin, but we hadn't really talked one on one that much. But I had mentioned that at the time, I was working in IT. And when he was talking about like, all of this cholesterol metabolism stuff, he was talking about it in terms of distributed object networks, and like, very techy stuff, basically. And I had had conversations about distributed object networks with my dad since I was like a kid, because he's also an IT person. And so, it was super fascinating. 

Jack Heald  21:02 

I've never had conversations like that with my daughters. In fact, if I said the phrase distributed object network, to either my daughters, they would probably instantly fall asleep. So. 

Siobhan Huggins  21:14 

Yeah, I've been interested in computers for a long time. Like, I like tinkering with my own. And eventually, I got into working in a help desk and doing some scripting work and stuff like that. So, it was like, I know exactly what you're talking about. This is awesome. Dad has told me about how awesome all this stuff is. So, and the other aspect is, if you've ever met Dave, he's a super fascinating dude. And I was immediately like, I have to know more about this person. He's so friendly. It's bizarre to me. And he will give you like, so much of your time. So anytime there was an open seat next to him, I would immediately sit down with her asking her questions, like okay, HDL, like, what is it for, what is it do? And there was some stuff that he would just be like, this could be the case, but I don't know. Like, maybe LDL is used in the immune system, but I don't know. And I could tell at that point. Probably because I'm very familiar with my dad also, like, this dude is so busy. If I wait for him to answer these questions, I'm going to be waiting forever. And I really want to know the answer. So... 

Jack Heald  22:25 

I think I know what's coming. 

Siobhan Huggins  22:28 

Yeah. So, I had participated in an event that was going on, which was the Ketofest Cholesterol Drop Experiment. And through that process, I happened to get Dave's cell phone number. And so, I started texting him, unsolicited, like, what do you recommend for learning about cholesterol like all this, and he recommended Peter Attia’s The Straight Dope on Cholesterol, and I started reading it, but it hurt my head. So, at the very beginning, though, it says if you want to be a citizen lipidologist, read these two textbooks. And it was Clinical Lipidology and Therapeutic Lipidology, I think and so I got copies of those. And I started reading them on the bus back from Connecticut. So... 

Jack Heald  23:15 

What a voracious reader, and just the two titles of the book, just not remotely interested. So, I applaud you 

Siobhan Huggins  23:26 

Clinical Lipidology is actually really good, and I love it. But so, for frame of reference, there was a period of time in my life before Ketofest, actually where I was reading about 170 books a year. So, like, it was a new topic, but I wasn't unfamiliar with reading stuff. I like to learn stuff. And before this point, had been more passive learning. Like if someone came on to the ketogenic forums and was like, how, like, do sweeteners impact insulin or whatever, I would go digging through PubMed and read them and say, like, I think it means this, maybe hopefully, someone else can comment and correct me or whatever. But it wasn't something I was actively seeking out. It was more to help other people answer questions. But when I connected with Dave, it was like, all right, I'm gonna start learning about this. And I wish I could go back through because in, we were communicating over Slack at the time, and I would send like these massive walls of text of like, I've been reading through this, and I found this and here's what I think is happening and blah, blah, blah. And those time periods were a source of, like, still anxiety it was working through because I was like, he's gonna respond. He's gonna be like, I'm busy, or like, I'm not, stop talking to me. But instead, he responded with as much enthusiasm as I was giving him and I was like, this has never happened to me before. Like, I would get super interested in topics and people would just glaze over and slowly sidle away. But instead, I had met someone who could meet me at that level and even trump me in some ways and be like, but did you consider this? So yeah, so I've contributed some posts to Cholesterol Code, sometimes like review type articles about certain topics, and in other cases posting about my own experiment, because I started getting into it, and replicating some of the stuff that he was doing and doing some my own stuff. And yeah, so that's how I got to Cholesterol Code. But I wanted to comment on like one thing, because I think it's such a good example of how much I changed from keto, which is, before I went keto, dad would always come home from work when I was in high school, and he would ask me, how was your day? Like, that's the dad thing. He does it all the time. And I would really dislike it. And it would make me incredibly uncomfortable, because every single time he asked, which was every single day, the answer, which I knew was true, was not good to extremely bad. But at the same time, like, I don't want to say that, this is not very socially acceptable to say, I'm really awful, actually, how are you doing? And I didn't want to lie either. So, I would usually just not respond or just say something like decent or alive. Because it's like, I'm not lying. And it was my way of like, dealing with the question that I really didn't want to think about myself, because it made me reflect on how I was feeling. And I just didn't want to think about that. It wasn't a pleasant thing to think about. 

Jack Heald  26:38 

And I'm really glad you shared that. Yeah, it was. That's something that there's listeners who's gonna hear that, and they're gonna go, Yeah, that's me. 

Siobhan Huggins  26:48 

Yeah. And it's difficult because you do want to connect with another person, but you want to connect honestly. And sometimes you can't do that without them being like, whoa, what's wrong? Like, there's nothing wrong. It's not like anything happened. This is just how I feel like, I don't know how to explain this you. And I didn't want to worry him either, obviously. And it's funny also, because at the same time, instead of doing the whole, like, how were you experienced with mom, I would turn to her and be like, did you know and I would just recount some random fact that I had learned. And that was my way of connecting without talking about myself. But then, so at Ketofest, the comparison to that is mom was with me, because I had asked her to take me to Ketofest for like an early birthday present. And she was like, well, I don't know, that'd be kind of expensive. And I was like, what if I pay for it and you come? And she's like, how is that a birthday present? It's like, because I'd be going with you like laying it on thick. So, she had to come with me. It's like, oh, God, fine. So, we both win. And so, she got to see me and that sort of environment where I had been on a ketogenic diet for like six to eight months or something like that. And she commented to one of the other people that she was talking to that it was like, I was a different person. Because I was talking to everybody I possibly could, I was going up to people and initiating conversations, I was happy, I was helping out I was volunteering to help with different things. And it's, like you mentioned it was a different personality almost. And I would not have been able to do any of that if I had not had the level of mental health that I had at that time. And like I wouldn't be able to do the bulk of what I'm doing now without a ketogenic diet. And, like there's one thing that people have asked me that I find interesting, but I also have comparisons for it. So, I can actually kind of answer, which is weren't you just less depressed because you lost weight, and were more skinny? And it's like, okay, well, like I mentioned, I had done calorie restriction, and I had lost 20 pounds before and the depression had never gotten away. And in that context, it had gotten worst. So, this was the complete opposite, whereby the two-month mark, I had lost 20 pounds, which is something I'd done before. But in this context, the depression was gone. And so, I don't think it's just like, oh, I had better body image or whatever. And so, I felt happier. For me, I think it is a metabolic thing. And I also have hints of that because if I accidentally have non-ketogenic food, like sometimes there's flour and sauces at restaurants, I'll start getting some of those anxiety and depression symptoms again, so I do have to be careful, like even over six years in, I still have to like, I mostly don't eat at restaurants anymore because I don't trust them. 

Jack Heald  29:44 

No, Chris Palmer, this is almost a direct quote, said to us, is at a point now... You know who Chris Palmer is? Audience, Dr. Chris Palmer, season two-episode, I don’t know, 28 or something. He said, at this point in his in his career, in his practice, he's convinced that all brain dysfunction is metabolic dysfunction. 

Siobhan Huggins  30:15 

Yeah, I would say... 

Jack Heald  30:16 

It just blew my mind and blew his mind when he started seeing it. So, what you're describing is very consistent with what one of the leading psychiatric researchers of the country is finding. 

Siobhan Huggins  30:31 

Yeah, and I think there can be some things that linger, like I mentioned, like the social anxiety was something I had to work through afterwards. Because it was a thought pattern that I had built up of over analyzing things, and coming to incorrect conclusions. And there were also other things that improved but didn't fully resolve. So, by the time I had started the ketogenic diet, I had PTSD at the time, which isn't something I talked about a lot, because it sucks. But the symptoms of the PTSD did get better. And they got better again when I went carnivore. But there was still lingering things like certain times of the year, it would start coming up again. And eventually I saw a trauma counselor and worked through that. And then finally, it was fully resolved. So, there are some things that were like immediately gone. Some things that improved, but I still had to work through. And I think it's just thought pattern type of stuff worse, like, with trauma, I think of it kind of in terms of like with epilepsy, they see like everyone has a seizure threshold. And I also think everybody has a trauma threshold. But like with epilepsy, the seizure threshold can vary. So ketogenic diets can make that threshold higher, so the seizures don't happen as often. I think that can also happen with trauma, where the threshold goes up to where I'm not as easily traumatized anymore. And I've experienced this weirdly, in real time, where I could feel my soul starting to go through that same process. And then I kind of looked at what I was doing with my diet, and really tightened up and it started to stop doing that. So, I think for me, that's another aspect that I have to be really, really careful about. 

Jack Heald  32:14 

We could throw up the mic right here. 

Siobhan Huggins  32:17 

Yeah, it's fascinating. I almost said fun, but it's not quite fun. But it's very interesting. It's one of those things like, again, it's self-experimentation of, whoa, if I do this thing, this thing starts happening when bad things happen. And it's like, constantly, when I was depressed, I would do like a lot of introspection, of what you had this situation and you reacted this way and felt this way. But that doesn't make sense. And you can look at the situation afterwards and be like, the way that you're feeling is not logical, and you start having arguments with yourself. And, but I kept up that habit after the depression went away. So, I'll constantly be introspecting. Like, if like, sometimes I'll have an interaction, and I'll get upset over it. And I'll introspect and be like, yeah, and that's kind of understandable to get upset at that's, whatever, it's normal. But sometimes, I'll introspect, and I'll be like, that doesn't make any sense. You kind of blew that out of proportion there. And the way that you're feeling right now does not match up with reality. And the first thing I'll do is look at my diet, am I eating things that I know bother me, even if it's not carbs, there are certain things like spices and dairy over the past couple of years, where if I have it too often, or in too large amounts, it'll start impacting my mood. And then just inevitably, it'll be like, out, it's that you're doing that thing again, stop it, tighten that up. But it's like, I have to keep self-checking. Because sometimes, like regression to the mean happens, you get a little bit looser with things. It's like, oh, like, it's not that big a deal. Or the most common one that I'll have is like, there's no way, no way cream cheese can impact your mood. That's so stupid, there's no possible way. But then it's so consistent. And just like, at what point, you've just accepted that this is happening, and you need to stop doing it. Like cognitive dissonance kicks in every single time. 

Jack Heald  34:17 

Yep, yep. Okay, so we've got you to the point that you're recognizing you're having an experience of existence, an existential experience that is better than anything you've ever had. And we're also like, 45 minutes into this conversation haven't even begun. Okay. So, summary, Siobhan has changed her life. Let's talk about oh, yeah, go ahead, Phil. 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  34:58 

I was gonna say we get into Because we towards some of the neuro psychiatric issues that Siobhan has dealt with and successfully overcome, we haven't even really gotten into some of the physical manifestations. And in particular I want to talk about a condition called lymphedema with the bomb has really educated me, personally educated, much of the low carb metabolic health and keto community gone. And really a condition that turns out to be fairly common, but incredibly underrecognized, incredibly wide view. And I can tell you that most physicians are not aware of this condition. And Siobhan has really been bringing it to the forefront. So, let's transition into that. Because it's another amazing part of her urinate. 

Siobhan Huggins  36:01 

Yeah, so in terms of physical effects, just a brief overview, no longer obese. So, I'm about 80 pounds down at this point, and that was mostly over the first two years or so. And then the rest was just sustaining it. And I used to have stage one hypertension, no longer have that.  Blood pressure's normal, used to have metabolic syndrome, no longer have that, everything looks good. Let's see what else, eczema, I no longer have that. Used to have chronic acne, I no longer have that. My hair used to be very poor quality, super frizzy. Now it's like glossy. It's funny, because I would watch like the shampoo commercials and be like, God, I wish my hair could look like that, like so glossy and smooth. And now, like, it doesn't look like a commercial, but it looks a lot healthier. And it's something that my sister commented on very early in, like, you changed your hair, like no, but it started getting less frizzy, which is very interesting. 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  37:06 

Unfortunately, I can't wait for that. 

Siobhan Huggins  37:11 

Yeah, so hair health, skin health, just internal health, like all of this stuff, I used to have chronic joint pain also. And that has gone away. For the most part, if I have certain trigger foods, honey is a pretty bad one, it'll trigger the joint pain again. So, I don't eat that. I went to a restaurant once and they gave me honey butter instead of regular butter. And then didn't tell me until after I had eaten a ton of it. And I was up all that night with horrible pain and I’ve never eaten at that restaurant again. I used to also have a really difficult time sleeping, there were some periods where I would be staying up on for 48 hours because I couldn't sleep. That sucks. I also don't recommend that. I also had a really difficult time just keeping a schedule, like a sleep schedule, I would look around all the time, which was also not fun when I was working. Because I would just go to work at some points and I had not slept yet. And I would sleep in on the weekends to catch up on what I hadn't been able to get through the week. So, all of that stuff is now done taken care of don't have to worry about it. I go into my doctor; he gives me the thumbs up and we talked for like an hour and then I leave. But the one thing that I didn't realize at the time, and I didn't realize until probably around two years ago, cuz it took a while to get a diagnosis is I had done a fasting experiment. I had done a bunch of fasting over my journey. I was involved in a bunch of people who did extended fasts. And so, I would participate in some. I’ve done like a million different 24 hour fast, three day fast. At one point, I did a seven day fast. And a lot of them were when I was heavier. And so, it was really easy. It's like, oh yeah, I'm not going to eat for like a week, whatever. It's boring, but it's not particularly difficult. And so, this time, I was like, I'm still heavy. Like looking at me, I look larger, I clearly have a lot of fat on me. So, I'm going to do a two-week fast, it should be super easy, safe. Like if I'm carrying all this extra weight, I should be able to access it during the fast, no problem. But over the course of the fast I found towards the tail end that I was getting really, really tired. I had to sleep all the way through the night and then a nap as well. I also was just kind of foggy headed and I don't know lethargic is probably a good way to put it getting kind of cold. And I was like but this doesn't make any sense. Because I have fat like, this should be fine. I'm not like a super lean, athletic person. And I was talking to someone who was familiar with fasting and was like, okay, yeah, that's kind of weird. And eventually, I broke fast. And I had taken measurements before and after. And I had lost inches at the waist, and an inch from the thigh. But my arms, my upper arm measurement had not changed over two weeks of not eating, and my arms are not small. And I was like, huh, that's interesting. And I had posted... 

Jack Heald  40:32 

I love that response. 

Siobhan Huggins  40:36 

Well, I mean, when you get an unexpected result, like, that's interesting, I wonder why that is. But I had posted a before and after for the fast on Twitter. And I had also posted on Facebook and three separate people messaged me in private, and said, I saw your before and after picture from the fasting experiment. Have you considered that you might have lymphedema? Because it looks like you might, especially from what you're describing, I was like, I don't know what that is. So, no, I haven't considered it. I'll look into it. So, I ended up digging through a bunch of stuff and talking to other people with lymphedema. And it seems possible, but at the same time, it's like me, I don't know, that sounds like another person problem. So, I talked to my doctor about it. And he was like, well, I could refer you to a specialist in California, and you can go see them. And maybe I don't know how much you can do about it basically. it's like, well, I at least want to know, like, in 2017, when I developed an egg allergy, my doctor, previous doctor also said, like, well, you could just not eat eggs. It's like, yeah, but I want the diagnosis. So that if I fix it, then I have it on paper. So same concept here, like I want it on the record, I want to know absolutely what I'm dealing with. And so, then I can learn more about it and see what I can do about it. And so, I did go see that specialist and she was pretty much like, yep, absolutely diagnosed me with lymphedema. Told me a whole bunch of stuff I wasn't aware of. Like, she asked if I got heat induced edema. So basically, do I swell when I get hot? And I said, well, I don't know. Because I try not to get overly hot because when I do it feels like I'm choking. And she's like, okay, so yes. It's lymphedema. 

Jack Heald  42:29 

I didn’t mean the laugh, but... 

Siobhan Huggins  42:31 

I mean, yeah, it's one of those things where it's like, oh, yeah, that's not normal. But the thing about it is like, you only live in one body. Yeah. So, a lot of the things you experience like with the depression, it's like, well, everybody must experience this. And I just, they don't talk about it because everybody knows it happens. And so, let me explain what lymphedema is because a lot of people are not aware. So, Lymphedema is a fat and lymphatic disorder, so it involves what? It's a fat and lymphatic disorder, and lymphatic, okay, so it's a disorder that affects both the fat tissue and the lymphatic vessels. And the lymphatic system helps remove fluid from the tissues basically. So, it affects both of those. And it results in this disproportionate accumulation of fat, typically in the lower body. So, I have it hip to ankle, and then it can also happen in the arms. So, I have it shoulder to wrist as well. And in my lower abdomen, so it's all over the place. And the other thing that happens along with the fat gain is that the fat and then scar. And so, when you try to lose weight, like when you're not eating for two weeks, that fat is potentially inaccessible, and you can access it because of the scarring. So, there are pictures from surgeries, for lymphedema surgery and stuff like that. And then the standard of care paper as well, where they've removed these scars, like balls of scarred fat, basically, so you can see them, they're definitely there. And some people is just completely riddled throughout the tissue and affected areas. And you can also feel them through the tissue. I think Phil felt like, because I go up to people and be like, do you want to know what it feels like? But you can palpate the fat basically. And you can feel the bumpiness and lumpiness underneath and that is... 

Jack Heald  44:25 

Phil is feeling his abdomen right now. I can see it. 

Siobhan Huggins  44:30 

So yeah, and the other aspect is that it almost exclusively affects women. So, it's like, oh... 

Jack Heald  44:39 

Phil, is there something you haven't told us? 

Siobhan Huggins  44:43 

I think a sort of similar thing can happen. Leslyn Keith, who is a lymphatic therapist has commented like a sort of similar thing can happen in dependent areas if someone has been obese and I think that can be in the abdomen. So that might be what that is. I've run into some former obese who have commented, oh yeah, I feel like a little bit of a weird texture. Or it could be other things. There's a ton of weird things that can happen with fat. So, you have that aspect. The other aspect though is the fat is painful, which also sucks. So, there would be before keto, like, my boyfriend would grab my arm to get my attention, like not rough. He's just putting his hand on my arm, and I'd snatch my arm away and be like, that hurts. He’s like, whoa. And sometimes other people would do that. And I would react that way. And they'd be like, oh, stop overreacting, that doesn't actually hurt that bad. It's like, no, I'm not overreacting, that hurts. And so, some women with lymphedema may not even realize, but like when a pet sits on your lap, and is putting pressure on your legs, or blood pressure cuffs on the arms, and that hurts, a lot of people don't realize that's not normal. And I didn't realize either it wasn't until I talked to the specialists who diagnosed me that I was like, oh, that's what that is. And the other way you can do is you can palpate the fat, again, apply pressure to it. And there can be a lingering soreness, and for me, is not really there anymore. But that's the other trick aspect is when I was looking into it before I had been diagnosed because I wanted to go in kind of having an idea of what I was dealing with, and be able to ask questions, there was a paper called I don't remember the exact title, but it's by Catherine Seo and Leslyn Keith. And it's talking about a ketogenic diet as a potential therapy option for lymphedema. And one of the things they commented on was that ketogenic diets can help with lymphedema related pain. I was like, oh, so that's why that got better. And I didn't really notice, until I was thinking about the two separate time periods before it was extremely tender. All of that, and now it's like, it doesn't matter, you can be as rough with my arms as you want, and I don't care. So those aspects, and then the other part of lymphedema as well is that you can get swelling in the legs. So that could be orthostatic. So, as you're standing throughout the day, the swelling could get worse. Or it could be heat induced edema as well, or sometimes, from what I've noticed, and what other women with lymphedema have commented on, there are trigger foods can trigger swelling. And that's another reason why I have to be careful about what I eat, because it can trigger swelling. And then with the swelling, the pain comes back. So, there can be an aching pain or the fat can become more tender, painful again, which sucks. And then the other part is easy bruising, particularly in areas that are affected. So, I would get random bruises on my thighs and legs. And it'd be like, oh, I wonder where that came from. And then brush it off, because like I must have hit whatever, I didn't realize it. But it was unusually frequent. And since I have gone high fat carnivore actually, that is the bruising has not happened in over a month now, I think. So, there are different things that can impact it, which is good. So ketogenic diets are one aspect of that, it can help with the pain, with the swelling, it can help women with lymphedema lose the remaining healthy fat that they have to healthy extent. And often there's fatigue that comes with it as well, which also seems to come with the swelling. So, reducing the swelling also helps reduce the fatigue. And then ketogenic diets, for some at least, can help slow progression or stop progression. So, over the past six years, the only times where I've seen progression was the high carb experiment that I did in, when was that 2019 I think, 2018 or 2019, stupid idea, but at the time, I did not know that I had lymphedema. And I had also formulated the experiment to be with like Whole Foods. So, I was like, this is gonna be fine, like the bad carbs or like the bread or whatever. It was black beans and chicken breast and a little bit of spices and eventually added in honey and bananas. 

Siobhan Huggins  49:25 

Every single day. Like, wow, why? So, one of the fallouts from that was I gained 17 pounds over the course of the experiment. And then in the aftermath, I kept gaining and the experiment length was eight days for the intervention. And it was hypercaloric for the last part. So, it was like 3000 calories a day of I think it was like 100 carbs or something like that is bad. And so, I gained 70 pounds and then since that point, I have not been able to lose 10 of those pounds. And I got a DEXA scan to compare to what I had before that experiment. And the places where I had gained fat was in all the places where I have lymphedema. So, it's like I gained the fat and then it probably scarred over. And now it's there. Like, boy, if I could go back in time, but also, I kind of appreciate that I did the experiment because now I can warn other people. Like if you have lymphedema, you do need to be careful, especially like during the holidays. 

Jack Heald  50:30 

So how do people... What are some of the signs that people should look for that maybe what's going on is lymphedema. 

Siobhan Huggins  50:43 

So, the typical signs are the disproportionate fat gain, as I mentioned, so in the lower body, and then typically when women try to lose weight, they lose it from the torso, in the face, and the waist, but not in the lower body. So, they'll have disproportionate weight loss as well. And it could even be to the point, especially if they develop an eating disorder for an example, which has been known to happen. They can become emaciated in the upper body, but they're still, they still look obese on the lower body. And I think there's a picture of that, and one of Gary Taubes books, maybe good calories, bad calories. But it's very, like once you see, you just like whoa. And so, there's the disproportionate gain and loss. And then also the pain is very distinctive. So, you could put pressure on the legs or palpate, the fat like I mentioned, and it could ache, it could some describe it as like a burning or stabbing pain. Some people have it so bad that it is excruciating pain. And then the other aspect is the nodule, so you can feel the fat. And the graininess and bumpiness is also very distinctive, and that would be in those same areas. So, the arms in some people and then the lower body as well. 

Jack Heald  52:08 

And this is because the lymphatic system does an insufficient job of flushing the fat tissues. Is that, is that right? 

Siobhan Huggins  52:21 

So, it's interesting because there are new papers from just this year, actually, that are looking closer at the lymphatic system, because there's been this big debate, is there actually a dema and lymphedema so they're trying to investigate it, but get better quality imaging, stuff like that. And they found that in the very, very early stages of lymphedema, so you can go from stage one to stage four where stage four is very severe and stage one is kind of the beginnings of it. In the early stage, the lymphatics appear to be working overtime. So, they're pumping faster than normal to try and get excess fluid out. And there's other papers that talk about the capillaries, the blood vessels, and lipidomic areas are leaky, and dilated and releasing more fluid into the tissue. So, it could be that what is happening is the capillaries are releasing this fluid, and then the lymphatics are trying to take it up. And then over the course of a long, long time period years and decades, the lymphatic system eventually cannot keep up and starts to become damaged and fail. And at the end of that, with stage four, you can develop lymphedema, which the lymphatic system has now become damaged and dysfunctional, and now you get excess swelling and even more complications, skin infections, stuff like that. So, in the beginning stages, we don't know if there are other irregularities with the lymphatic system or anything like that. This, like lymphedema was only named in the 1940s. So, it's pretty young in terms of research, especially when looking at like heart disease or diabetes, which we can see all the way back to like ancient Egypt. So, we're still learning and over the past few years, especially there's been a ton of papers published. But there's a lot we don't know. We know the lymphatic system is involved and as a comorbidity, a component can become damaged. But we don't know why. 

Jack Heald  54:27 

Is there a model for why it primarily affects women? 

Siobhan Huggins  54:31 

So, it seems like there might be a hormonal component because the other aspects, yeah, the other aspect is that I've seen like two different surveys on it, basically and around half of women said that the onset was around puberty, pregnancy and menopause. So, for me it would have been around puberty, where everything else started going bad. 

Jack Heald  54:55 

In other words, three significant hormonal transition periods. 

Siobhan Huggins  54:58 

Yeah.  

Jack Heald  55:02 

Is it the presence of female hormones or the absence of male hormones, or do we even know enough? 

Siobhan Huggins  55:07 

I don't think we know enough. There are some case reports of men who developed lymphedema. And in every single case that I know of those reports, they had hormonal, not defects, exactly, but they had conditions that resulted in low testosterone and high estrogen. So, it seems like there's a hormonal case to be made, but I don't think we know the specifics. So, I've given a couple of presentations because obviously, as I'm learning about this for myself, I'm also trying to figure out what the heck is happening because I get like bugs in my brain just like, but why, but why? And with lymphedema, there's multiple different things that showed there are potential connective tissue abnormalities. So, there's a hypermobility that is common around like 58% of women they looked at with lymphedema were hyper mobile, which is more than general population. 

Jack Heald  56:07 

That means that joints are overly flexible than they're supposed to. 

Siobhan Huggins  56:11 

Yeah. And the interesting thing with that is when they looked at it per stage, the rate of hypermobility went up and up and up for each stage. So, the more severe the lymphedema was, the higher the rates of hypermobility. And in stage four, it was something like 80% had hypermobility. So, something funky going on there. And then there's also some, like, aortic stiffening, that is more common in women with lymphedema, at least from initial reports. And that's also seen in a genetic condition called Williams Syndrome, which affects basically a whole range of different things throughout the body. But there are part of the genes that are affected in Williams Syndrome are connective tissue related, and they also have the aortic stiffening. And the think what it is, is the connective tissue in the aorta is not formed properly or maintained properly, or something's going on there. And so, it stiffens as a result, because it's hyper flexible. And so, there's that aspect. And then there are also changes in the blood vessels that indicate there's potential connective tissue changes there as well, that's affecting them, maybe impacting why they're leaky or dilated, all that type of stuff. And a couple other things too, but basically, there's a common thread. Something is weird there, even if we don't know precisely what. So, my kind of latest thinking is maybe the issue is a connective tissue problem. And, like, let's say you have someone who's wonderfully healthy and all that, and they also have this, maybe these pathological symptoms, the kind of harmful symptoms of the swelling and the pain and all that type of stuff won't occur, if that's the only issue they're dealing with. And they can kind of mitigate those issues, the immune systems, not overtaxed by metabolic syndrome, all this type of stuff. They can repair and remake the connective tissue, like the person's eating a healthy diet, they have all the stuff they need to make stuff. But if you have someone who is going through periods of stress that may affect that aspect, then you may start seeing issues. Leslyn Keith was actually the one who pointed out to me that puberty, pregnancy and menopause are not only times of hormonal flux, there are also times where we can become naturally insulin resistant. Because there are stress periods. Like it's a lot of stress to grow as a human being during puberty and you're also adding in the hormones during that point, pregnancy, you will also become insulin resistant to gain weight, and it's also a stress period. And then menopause is not quite the same hormonal area, but it can be a time period where women start more rapidly developing metabolic issues, diabetes, heart disease, which indicates they're more susceptible to health problems in general, which may mean they're more susceptible to problems from lymphedema. So that's kind of my current thinking. And there's a ton more to go into that in terms of the specifics and what exactly may be happening. But the very, very short overview is potentially what's happening with the scar tissue is that normally fluid comes into the tissue and the elastic tissue will kind of act like a rubber band and push back against that and then push the fluid back out. And with Williams Syndrome, what seems to happen is the fluid comes in and the elastic tissue is more lacs, so kind of like a taffy so it stretches. And the interesting thing with Williams Syndrome is around 30% of them or so develop a lymphedema profile like a phenotype. So, they have the disproportionate fat. It looks like someone has lymphedema, but they're missing some of the aspects. So, they don't have the easy bruising, they don't have pain. So, it's like, okay, there's something a little bit different. And so, I'm wondering if maybe what's happening with lymphedema is the fluids coming in. And because of a potential underlying connective tissue disorder, maybe instead of stretching normally, like a rubber band, or being lacks, like the Taffy example, it's breaking. And so, if it's a weak connective tissue, then that would explain the easy bruising because the connective tissue helps support the blood vessels. So, if that's weak, you could have easier bruising from that. If you're also breaking connective tissue in the fat like that supportive network is extremely important for fat health. So, if you're disconnecting chunks of fat, maybe they're becoming damaged and injured and scarring over after that continues for longer period. So, but I don't know if it's true. It's just what I think about. 

Jack Heald  1:01:09 

Well, it begs the question, is the way that you care for yourself in terms of your diet, is that making a positive impact on your experience of lymphedema? 

Siobhan Huggins  1:01:26 

I would say yes. So, like I mentioned, the bruising is almost gone with the way that I currently eat. I haven't had any random bruising in over a month now. And if we believe that the bruising and the connective tissue faults are connected, and they're reflecting each other, if one is causing the other one, then the decreased bruising might suggest that my connective tissue health is better, eating the way that I do. And the other sign of that actually is I do have hypermobility, like I was demonstrating before. And if I'm not eating as well, or other things, like, if I don't sleep enough, my arm can start subluxation. So, the joint will try to move out of the socket, which is it feels as gross as it sounds, and sometimes it's painful. But with the way I eat now, that almost never happens. It feels pretty solidly in the socket, luckily, like I'm still hypermobile, but it's not too as severe an extent where, like if it were worse, at the far extreme, you could accidentally dislocate from doing normal activities. Thankfully, I've never experienced that, sounds horrible. So that has also improved, which is another sign that maybe connective tissue health has improved. 

Dr. Philip Ovadia  1:02:44 

Yeah, and it's interesting that connective tissue disorders, specifically, there's one called Ehlers Danlos, where they have that hypermobility, and they dislocate joints easily. And that is another condition that I know if people have improved it with carnivore ketogenic diet. So, it's just interesting to see how this all started to come together. And you basically, you started on a dietary therapy to address a problem. And then you unmasked essentially another problem, which has also improved with that same dietary therapy, and that just has to lead you down the thought pathway that these are somehow related. There is a forgetting the name of the principle in medicine that if a patient has two diseases it's more likely that they have a common use than that there are two truly distinct disease processes. 

Siobhan Huggins  1:03:55 

Yeah, for sure. And it's fascinating, like I've definitely heard, just anecdotes, of course, but people with Ehlers Danlos Syndrome and Marfan’s as well, who said that their symptoms improved with the ketogenic or sometimes particularly a carnivorous diet like, ooh, that's interesting. And then in terms of like other symptom improvement real quick, the pain like I said, is pretty much gone. Like I'll sometimes get aches but it's usually along with swelling and I can do things about that. Like I have compression gear and next week, I actually have an appointment for manual lymph drainage, which is also supposed to help reduce the swelling and then help the lymphatic system out a little bit. Because it struggles. And so, the thing with lymphedema is like, it's not only a ketogenic diet, but it seems like a ketogenic diet is this important keystone that makes every other aspect of management way easier, especially because women with lymphedema can have depression and anxiety and body image issues. And just like I've experienced the mental health benefit helps a lot to when you're dealing with a really honestly sucky, chronic condition, like having the mental stability and just like groundwork for that to deal with like, okay, I can handle this, like I cannot even imagine if I had been diagnosed before finding keto, the devastating impact of that because I was already dealing with so many other things. And then adding that on top is really difficult. And I've heard from women who are often in that position with lymphedema where it's just a nightmare. But there are also many of those same women try ketogenic diets and a more holistic approach to dealing with it. And its life changing, like quality of life improves depression symptoms can lessen, it gets easier to deal with, you have the sense of community as well, because a lot of other people were doing this. And it feels like you have tools to address issues that you were having, even if you didn't realize you were having them. So, all of that is good. And the other aspect again, is, like I said, except for the high carb experiment, I haven't had any progression in six years, which is pretty cool. And the interesting thing in my case is like if I hadn't gone on a ketogenic diet, I might not have been diagnosed so early, I probably wouldn't have been, because I not only had lymphedema, which was on the lower body and the arms, but I also had central adiposity. So, I had some, I had central adiposity, stomach fat, like visceral fat, I was obese all over and then lymphedema underneath, like hiding sneakily underneath. So, looking at me, you would have just been like, well, she's obese, like of course, she's fatigued, of course, like whatever. But then it was after the weight loss that people were like, because it came off disproportionately. So, it's very interesting. And I definitely did lose fat in lymphedemic areas, like I lost something like 10 inches off of my waist, I think almost exactly 10 inches, but then also 10 inches off of my hips, and I'm affected there with lymphedema, my thighs have definitely gone down in size. So that's actually another bonus of ketogenic diets for lymphedema that women sometimes comment on is that it makes it easier to lose in lymphedemic areas, which is really, really important, because if the lymphedema gets severe enough, and enough fat accumulates, then you can start having issues with mobility, just because of the physical obstacle around your limbs, causing trouble with gait and just trouble with walking and the extra weight there and stuff like that. So, getting some relief for that is like another bonus, like added to the list. So yeah, I would say things have improved from a ketogenic diet. 

Jack Heald  1:07:59 

Wow. I love the way your mind works. I want to ask you more and more questions. And I'm also aware of the time. 

Jack Heald  1:08:15 

I think we at least just need to put a pin in it here. Phil, it's getting to be time for us to start circling around with all the people that we've said we want to talk to you again. Definitely. So, Siobhan I guess the real quickly, let our audience know what it is you do on a day-to-day basis right now that's helping our listeners, and then how do we get a hold of you? 

Siobhan Huggins  1:08:44 

Yeah, so I won't go through the full list, because I work way too much. But so, the first thing actually is that I co-own a company called Own Your Labs, and that's with Dave Feldman, actually. So, we are a lab reseller. And that can help some people if they have issues getting access to that type of thing in the US. But the other major things that I'm doing is I'm on the board of the Lymphedema Project. So that is a 501C3 nonprofit, and we're focused on continuing research on lymphedema and also advocacy. Because one thing I didn't touch on is the estimated rate for lymphedema, at least in the US is 11% of women, which is one in nine so hideously under diagnosed and obviously can have a big impact on quality of life. So, we're very focused on increasing awareness, getting people to know what this is and what to do about it, so that more people can be aware if it's something they're dealing with, or someone they know. And then get them the help that they need to not have it be so overwhelming. And then we're also doing a ton of different projects that we don't have time to get into, but we're doing a lot of stuff. And then, I'm also at this point, I've published one paper with Dave and then also Nick Horowitz. And that was on the so-called cholesterol draft protocol or Feldman protocol. So that was the case series that we published on. And I'll probably be publishing more stuff as we go on. And I'm doing a ton of other stuff, but I can't talk about it yet. So, lots of research, lots of learning, and lots of just advocacy in helping people try and understand just complex topics. I've done a lot of presentations on things like inflammation and insulin resistance, and different biomarkers and lymphedema and being a citizen scientist as well. So, it's trying to connect with other people and, like, get them to understand why this stuff is important. And also, that it's not impossible to Parson in a way that they can apply to their own lives. 

Jack Heald  1:10:59 

So, what's the best way for people to interact with you? 

Siobhan Huggins  1:11:03 

I'm most active on Twitter. So that is at @siobhan_huggins, please put it in the show notes, so people don't have to try and spell it. Yeah, you can just reach me there. You can also reach me at siobhan@thelymphedemaproject.org I may not have spelled that, right. But we'll also put it in the show notes. 

Jack Heald  1:11:22 

Very good. Phil, you just keep blowing me away with the people you get, you bring me to get to sit and talk to and listen and learn. I'm just, I feel a little selfish sometimes because I'm having so much.  

Dr. Philip Ovadia  1:11:41 

Yeah, one of the best parts of this journey, certainly that I've been on personally and professionally, it's meeting all the other wonderful people who are on similar journeys. And I think the common message, the common theme that weaves through all of our stories is just there is hope. And you can figure out what is wrong with your health, and you can improve your health. And just keep plugging away at it. Just keep asking questions. And eventually you'll get to the right answers. 

Siobhan Huggins  1:12:17 

Yeah, absolutely. And I'll add on to that, like, if anyone is listening right now, and any aspect of this conversation was, hey, that's me, or, hey, I went through that, or, hey, I'm going through that, you're not alone. And we're here for you. So, if you need any help, just reach out and we're here. 

Jack Heald  1:12:36 

That is just fantastic. All right. Well, we're going to have you back on insist, Phil, please, let's get her back because I haven't come close to exhausting my questions. Siobhan, thank you so much for being with us. We will post all of your contact information; the way people can get a hold of you in the show notes. Thanks for being with us, for Dr. Philip Ovadia, I am Jack Heald. Follow Dr. Ovadia on Twitter @ifixhearts. And I would recommend if you haven't done so yet, go to his website, ifixhearts.com and take his metabolic health quiz. 88% of all Americans are metabolically unhealthy. Good way to find out if you are one of the rare 12 out of 100 that aren't. 

Siobhan Huggins  1:13:29 

I think we're up to like 97% now. But yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for the great questions. 

Jack Heald  1:13:39 

All right. Well, until next time, we'll talk to you. Bye bye. 

Jack Heald  1:13:51 

America is fat and sick and tired. 88% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy and at risk of a sudden heart attack. Are you one of them? Go to ifixhearts.co and take Dr. Ovadia's metabolic health quiz. Learn specific steps you can take to reclaim your health, reduce your risk of heart attack and stay off Dr. Ovadia’s operating table. This has been a production of 38 atoms