Dr. Philip Ovadia

Joshua is one of the most prolific and accomplished ghostwriters on the planet ,

Introduction

Dr. Philip Ovadia

and so he has a new book coming out that we're gonna be getting into and really looking forward to having a discussion around some of the thinking that really goes into writing books and some of the concepts that we brought out about metabolic health in the book that we wrote together . But before I say too much , I wanna turn it over to Joshua and give him a chance to introduce himself to our audience , so I'm gonna sort of come out from behind the curtain that he oftentimes operates behind .

Joshua Lisec

Yes , well , jack , phil , I appreciate that introduction . And , yeah , this book so good , stay off my operating table with so much fun to work on . And finally , after 12 years of ghostwriting , nonfiction books , i have mine coming out . And if you can see from the cover , the idea here is that it's so good . They call you a fake . Well done . There's a disguise over the face of the individual because from a distance it looks cartoonishly fake , like what is this ? What is this ? You look closer and you realize , oh , it's the real deal here . It's the real Mona Lisa , it's the real where your potato , as they say , this is something that and this is where the crossover comes in . So you , phil , you're the author of the forward of my book here , so you get some credit here And we talk a lot about your book in my book , because something that you've noticed is negativity about your message .

Joshua Lisec

Your take on metabolic health is doing you a favor , it's beneficial to the message , and this pitch for this book is that cultivating organic haters is one of the best things you can do for your brand . And this all comes together when we realize that in most industries , the people who are best at what they do are usually not the best paid . In fact , they're some of the worst paid , they're some of the least known , they're the best kept secrets in their space , be it fitness , be it health , wellness , nutrition , diet , et cetera , or be it industries as disparate as internet marketing or hypnotherapy . The people who have optimized for greatness get word of mouth marketing , but they're charging 150 bucks a session and their competitors are charging $15,000 a session and have a year long waiting list . And they're getting it because they've optimized for marketing awareness , being known , being the one who's to his top of mind .

Joshua Lisec

And so that imbalance people come to me one on one to correct . They say , joshua , i'm an expert , but no one thinks of me as an authority because I don't have a book . Make me an author , make me the authority on my topic , and that's why ghost write the books . So the book is the aside , it's the outcome of the book that's desired , be it an authority on metabolic health , like your yourself , phil , or people who want to be an expert on entrepreneurship or their family law practiced or what have you in their industry . But what allows someone who's great at what they do to leapfrog or to jump above those who've optimized for being known , optimized for marketing even ?

Joshua Lisec

though they're not great at what they do is being so good . They call you a fake And that's something that you've been on the receiving in Phil , and you joke that when I first read the title past you you said , oh , the book should be called so good . They call you a quack because that's some of the reception that you've received from your book and from your work .

Jack Heald

You know , i think there's so many places we could go just from that introduction . But as I think about how you do what you do , joshua , it really is , at one level , abstracted above metabolic health . What you're doing is going against the mainstream . You're going against the consensus Phil goes against the consensus of the medical establishment . You're going against the consensus of , kind , of the entire publishing industry in some way . So I think the lessons each of you have learned will apply to those who are listening to this podcast . thinking about metabolic health , thinking about pursuing health , whether that's physical , psychological , emotional , spiritual , whatever might you just might have to go against the consensus . So talk a little bit about what the consensus is and how you're going against it , not in an individual niche that you've written for , but the whole idea of what you're doing .

Joshua Lisec

Yes , yes , Usually the consensus is a result of the powers that be the experts , the institutions , the gatekeepers . The reality is what they say it is , rather than what is evident and what's obviously seen . And so someone who comes along with a message that feels bombastic , that's over the top , that's clickbait , that's over promising and it turns out over delivers , that person's going to get attention . And the gist of my book , which is the

Achieving Success by Going Against Consensus

Joshua Lisec

it's a collection of all the work that I've learned working with different authors designing their systems , is that one must have a system for producing results so good they don't seem to think it could possibly be legitimate . And , interestingly enough , one of the examples we use in the book is Dr Philip of Adia's metabolic health system , And one of the reasons that the book gets such fantastic results is it's not a collection of and I'm talking about Phil's book now , so you have my operating table . One of the reasons why it gets such spectacular results is because it's a step by step , with no step skipped system , And the system includes what beliefs people need to have replaced what they need to believe in , so they need to understand instead and usually there's a lot of consensus assumption replacement that's happening there about metabolic health and different , what different blood work numbers mean and what ideal health does look like in a different way , and what the metabolic health markers are and supremacy of metabolic health . For all that ails you , And some of the results that people report from following Phil's advice are spectacular and a little ridiculous , which is the point , which is the point .

Joshua Lisec

There's one of the book reviews on Phil's book that says they were able to lose a certain number of inches around their waist losing inches around their waist in a weekend . And according to the consensus , it's not possible to lose that much weight around your waist in less than 28 days . So someone did what in three days , but it's supposed to take 28 days . That's where we have no way that happened . That's not true . That's ridiculous . I better look further , I better investigate to see if there's something going on here . And the cartoonishly fake appearance of initial results is what gets attention , Specifically draws attention away from those who are supported by the consensus , those who toe the line , those who say what their sponsors want them to say , those who make the powers that be look good As a way of being a little bit of an energy monster , you might say , thriving on all kinds of attention Phil does , I do and other authors of mine have , in fitness , health , wellness , wealth , fasting and more .

Dr. Philip Ovadia

So what do you think some of the key steps or key concepts are in changing people's minds ? When you're going against dogma , when you're going against the mainstream and you're trying to convince people that there are alternatives , there is a different way to do this , whether you're talking about health or wealth or any of the other topics that you mentioned there . what are some of the commonalities that you see across the field when it comes to changing people's thinking ?

Joshua Lisec

Yes , the first step of any system for genius that's going to produce results that look like they couldn't possibly be real they're so good . The first step is actually not okay . Step one do this Like in your case , phil , i wasn't a step one eat real whole foods . Step two do this . Step three you know , here's your grocery list . Those were like five , six , seven , eight , wait , wait . Later You first had to address what's not true And one of the beliefs that is worth exposing in your case and we'll get to the topic of dog , i'll get us there One of the beliefs we had to address is that the health care system is designed to help me be healthy .

Joshua Lisec

That was a belief that a lot of people have , that they believe that the advice that they're getting from the American Heart Association endorsed high sugar , high processed carb , low fiber snack foods that are produced Oh , this is a heart healthy , okay , so I guess it's healthy for my heart , right ? Okay , it's a health food . The idea is that that endorsement means something , it's a legitimate endorsement , and that one is a little example . We see that map onto other aspects of advice , and so what must first be destroyed is the assumption , the misconception , the myth that institutions overseeing health , healthcare , medicine , have the best interest of the individual in mind , and I like to say that that's changed . And the way that I say that is it used to be first do no harm . Now it's first do get paid , and that system of incentives people don't quite realize yet , the consumer doesn't realize yet . And so what your book does , phil , stay off my operating table starts with beliefs that need to be replaced , and every system , whether it's packaged in a book or in a course or in a coaching offer , consulting or even a service , must start with what do people believe regarding the existing dogma ?

Joshua Lisec

the institutions , who have a lot of money to make and money to protect , mind share to protect that they won't want taken from some upstart , nobody outside the system , a rogue doctor or whatever the case may be . What they want to do is make sure that person is seen as a quack or seen as a rogue doctor . The sorts of labels on them , right , but those labels from haters are some of the best marketing that you could possibly have . That's the reframe of this book and of this message , and so the real question is what do people believe ? to answer your question with a question what dogmas do people believe ? How are those not helpful ? What evidence can be presented to break the wall that stands between people and what they currently , what they currently are and what it is that they want ?

Joshua Lisec

And that's why the focus on what do you want ? what ultimate outcome do you want ? That alone inspires , is attractive and persuades people to look past the cartoonishly illegitimate veneer that's initially present when someone calls you a quack or rogue doctor . It's okay . Well , i want that outcome . And in your case , it's not .

Joshua Lisec

You know what's wrong with the healthcare system and how to stop it right . It's not . You know how they're lying to you and the truth behind medicine . It's not anything about that , it's the outcome . I don't want to die on your operating table . I don't even want to be on your operating table . You're the heart surgeon doesn't want to give you heart surgery . Okay , that's interesting to me . That's the outcome that I want , and the additional aspects of the outcome of staying on operating table are losing weight , preventing disease and feeling your best every day .

Joshua Lisec

Well , i want all those things , and so the idea is that the promise of this book and of your metabolic health system is so attractive that even people people who are hating on you and criticizing you and saying terrible things about you . That draws attention to you initially . Then they see what you're promising and say , oh well , i want those things . And so that alone is impetus enough . It's drive enough to get people to challenge their own beliefs . If you just said , here's what you believe , that's wrong . Pay me $19.99 plus shipping and handling . That's not attractive . It's the promised outcome , the promised land , and that's what's going to give people enough motivation to challenge their own beliefs and then get to the system and then get the results that are promised .

Jack Heald

I want to make sure I'm following you And first of all , i want to preface my question by saying I'm on board with you . So , in spite of the fact that this question is going to sound challenging , it's simply I really don't . There's something you said I don't understand . I'm not sure I understand . I've laid out a series of steps to help people move from a position of perhaps unthinking dogmatic belief in some sort of Constance's opinion to the place where they were questioning it enough to begin making changes . You know whether that's buying a book or changing how they live .

Jack Heald

And , as you were describing it , i thought I heard you say something to the effect of I'm hearing , i'm going to say not your words , but the idea I thought you said , and basically the idea that I thought you gave me was you're going to help them change their minds about whatever through this series of logical steps ? Here's my question . My experience is that when you tap that deep part of any human being that is their identity , it doesn't matter how logical your argument is . I know you've dealt with this and you may have addressed it as we were speaking , but I thought I heard you know here's the logical sequence for logically changing somebody's opinion , and I know that when somebody's identity is wrapped up in their beliefs , they're impervious to logic . How do you overcome that particular barrier ?

Joshua Lisec

We're close . We're close . The steps from the author's perspective are logical . The belief change is not necessarily . Hey , here's some facts and logic . You should change your mind . It's leading people to the conclusion and they feel that they can make it for themselves . So one of the things that Statham operating to the table does a Phil's book is it lays out the incentive structure for medicine . For hospitals , They get paid when people subscribe . They subscribe because they have symptoms they need to manage . There is no incentive to get someone cured . That one realization has downstream effects , And one of those is mistrusting what your consensus aligned doctor says , who recommends you should have this many 500 grams of carbohydrates every day , for example .

Jack Heald

Thank you , statham , for the rest of your life . It will keep you a postural down and reduce your chances of having a heart attack .

Joshua Lisec

Yes , if I'm permanently in a pre-diabetic state and even a scheduling towards type two diabetes , that's cash money for the system . So when you understand the incentive structure , that's one of the fundamental beliefs that's needed in order to get to the point . So the steps are logical And this comes from , but what's in the steps may not necessarily be . Hey , here's some facts and some logic and some statistics and percentages . There is one situation where that is useful And I can talk about that in a moment In hypnosis , and that's a lot of the work that I do .

Joshua Lisec

It's kind of a joke , kind of serious half joke

A long form self-hypnosis script

Joshua Lisec

, that a book is a long form hypnosis script , the long form self hypnosis script to change someone's beliefs and drive new behaviors . And in hypnosis there's a concept called the chain of beliefs . Think of them as dominoes , where if someone thinks one thing , then there's a natural next belief that comes after that And a natural next belief that comes after that . And so what Phil's book does is it lays up one chapter , one section at a time , a chain of beliefs , such that by having those beliefs you get to the later chapters . The presumption that what he's saying is true for you is not in question anymore . It's not to be . Well , i really need to think about this . Is this logical or not ? We're not viewing that because we've accepted what's already come along the way .

Jack Heald

This is the series of small agreements that skilled salespeople .

Joshua Lisec

Yes , they're called a yes set And in building rapport , a hypnosis in their client they have to . This will ask three questions or say three things , kind of following the rule of three that the patient knows to be true . And so , as the patient's getting comfortable , they'll say three things . Like you're already getting comfortable in the chair , the hypnotist says , as they see their patient getting comfortable in the chair , and then they notice their patient is taking a deep breath , that's right , you're taking a deep breath . This feels really good in this moment , right now . And they're like , yeah , it does , i am taking a deep breath . They're just prophesying what's already happened . That's part of a yes set .

Joshua Lisec

In that concept we can map onto literary persuasion , which is what a good book like Fills is and does . It changes beliefs . So it's logical in that there's a process to do this , but the beliefs themselves that we're implanting may not necessarily be 100% logic . Here are 50 sources , here is 60 sources , here is 70 sources . The only time that that's useful is when you need to create the appearance of credibility . There is a historical nonfiction book that I ghosted a few years ago . We had over 310 sources cited in the book And we knew that that was important because the sort of one of the audiences that would be reading the book was going to be professional historians And what a professional historian . There's not enough sources or not enough whatever in here , so professional historian goes through and sees that there's 76 citations for the opening chapter . Oh wow , this looks like it's really researched . Okay , that should take the serious That's the belief .

Jack Heald

They're not actually looking at the research , they're just looking at the fact that there are 70 .

Joshua Lisec

Zero chance a single person is going to read all 76 sources . Now , we didn't like choose , like BuzzFeed . I mean , we chose real papers and original sources and whatnot . But the point wasn't , oh , we really need to do this for us . We realized who's going to be reading it and that we needed to give them the emotional experience . Wow , this is thoroughly researched And that's the logical justification . And in sales , what does it ? we say we buy with emotion and justify with logic . Right , that's another understanding . And so it's a multi level kind of understanding of persuasion . Literary persuasion that goes into all this that uses neuro linguistic programming and hypnosis and some sales techniques and direct response , copywriting . There's so much that goes into just writing a book beyond . Okay , phil , what do you want to say ? Let's write chapter titles .

Dr. Philip Ovadia

Yeah . so maybe we should talk about that sort of process a little bit and maybe to lead into that , you know , it would be , i think , informative for people to understand how you got to where you are , you know how you became one of the most prominent ghost writers in the world and one of the most prolific , and maybe even talk a little bit about you know what a ghost writer is , because , honestly , you know , before you and I met , i didn't really think about the fact that most books that are out there

Joshua's ghostwriting journey

Dr. Philip Ovadia

are not necessarily written only by the you know the author that's listed , and that ghost writing is , you know , a very prominent part of the publishing industry that really doesn't get talked about . So I think it would be interesting for people to hear about your journey and maybe ghost writing in general .

Joshua Lisec

Yeah , yeah , that's a good point , and on any given any given week , 80 to 90% of all the titles on a major bestseller list were ghost written . In that , in the , in the , let's say , the ivory tower in New York . Publishing authors don't often want the public knowing who their ghostwriter was , or they even had a ghostwriter , because the usual relationship of a ghost writing agency and the author is the author contacts the agency and they says hey , i need a book written . You can find all about my life story on Wikipedia and interviews that I've given . Throw me a ghostwriter to have them talk to me for a couple of hours and then they'll just write everything . And so the outcome is that the story is experiences and insights that are appear in the book . The author is usually unaware of what they are when the book is published .

Joshua Lisec

I did have a project like this a number of years ago in which the author was on NPR and it was clear to the interviewer that the author had not even read their own book . Bad situation , i don't . I don't do that anymore . You can attest to all that we had . We had months of conversations . Sometimes you were in the airport about to board a plane after a long day at the operating table , but it's your stories , your insights , your experiences .

Joshua Lisec

It was my job to document them and to flesh out a couple of minutes of a conversation into a 15 page chapter that incorporated those ideas but expanded on them with additional research and examples that bolstered and boosted what you wanted to say but didn't require you to sit down and write it all yourself . It's a lot more of a collaborative approach , what I do , than what the traditional ghostwriter author relationship is , which is , you know , kind of a placement agency giving them a writer to make up their life story , which is the usual approach . And that's why most , let's say , mainstream authors don't want to know that they had a ghostwriter , because the revelation associated with that admission that they had a ghostwriter is they don't even know it's in their own book . And you can find this often when a celebrity or a politician is giving an interview about their book specifically , and it was announced that it was in New York Times bestseller because a consultant paid about 8,000 copies . But that's another matter And that's how bestseller lists really work .

Jack Heald

Of course , You cannot leave that aside Oh yes , yes , this show is about this show is about shattering the consensus beliefs about a particular niche of the universe . There's a consensus belief you just addressed that's in a different niche , but it's the same type of thing . Please unpack that for us .

Joshua Lisec

Yes , it's relatively straightforward and cost effective to buy one's way onto a major bestseller list if you're a published author . So sometimes what political consultants will do for their authors is they will place 5,000 to 8,000 individual pre-orders through multiple outlets , creating so it looks like one sale , because it's not like you can purchase 5,000 copies and , okay , that gets credited to a book scan which reports to the New York Times and Wall Street Journal and other major newspapers . Hey , look , how many book sales were made . So it plays a bunch of individual orders And then the book , the publication , all pre-orders go towards first day sales with major best-seller lists And so , boom , oh wow , look , we are a New York Times bestseller .

Joshua Lisec

Look at this , even though no one has ever heard of the book , no one's ever going to hear of the book again . No one even knows what it's about . It's somebody who's using the book to launch their campaign And it's poorly written and all the things , all the things that are kind of a typical for the mainstream publishing industry of good enough to get it out there . But that's really how the sausage is made , so to speak , inside of traditional publishing . It's for show , it's not for dough , so to speak , and , of course New York Times and to a lesser extent the Wall Street Journal , don't actually report real total sales . So , amazoncom , depending on whether it's traditionally published or independently published , those sales don't count towards traditional bestseller lists . Even though a book can be selling 10,000 copies a day on Amazon , those copies won't get counted towards a real bestseller list , or should I say a real bestseller list ?

Jack Heald

Air quotes yeah .

Joshua Lisec

Like that And of course , there was a controversy a few years ago when Jordan Peterson's first book or rather his second book , but the first of the 12 Rules for Life kind of series It was sold multiple millions of copies , but it wasn't on the New York Times bestseller list because they didn't want it to be , and that's what was revealed to the public . More so , actually , it's not a real bestseller list , it's more like editorial picks of books . We want people to think our bestsellers . The really only accurate bestseller list is the Amazon bestseller list , which is updated hourly And you can , based on the algorithm , know to the number how many copies of a book have actually been sold and how much the author and publisher made off the sales of that . So it's true transparency , it's authenticity , it's visibility and it's efficiency , which the mainstream is unable to offer . Or should I say the entrenched mainstream , the institutions , the consensus .

Jack Heald

Yes .

Joshua Lisec

Yes , the consensus And that so the problem with healthcare ?

Jack Heald

The little trademark after the word , the consensus Yes , problems in healthcare are also the problems in publishing and elsewhere .

Joshua Lisec

Now I know the original question , phil , was how I got into this . Well , this is where I seem to find myself now . I was talking about these sort of controversial issues , but my story as a ghostwriter begins very much in line with so good , they call you a fake message , which is wait , what you did that ? No way , i have to learn more . So my story goes back to around about 12 years ago . So when I began my career as a ghostwriter , a professional writer , i as a kid wanted to write novels and get novels published . I wanted to be a professional novelist . It was kind of my thing Being homeschooled . you can read whatever books you want and do whatever you want , and one of the things I did was live in the family library . that was in a musty , crusty , dusty basement . as a lot of homeschool families had in the 90s , blackout the windows so the public school can't see Back . when it was . like your kids are homeschooled . We need to send child services over to make sure they're okay . Another problem with the consensus .

Jack Heald

Another consensus thing . Yes , yes .

Joshua Lisec

So I have a bone to pick with these people .

Jack Heald

So it indicates You're the right place , man .

Joshua Lisec

Yes , so it indicates fast forward . A few years later , teenage years , i wrote two novels . I got an independent book publishing deal for both of them And I was 20 years old at the time . And as I'm signing copies and I'm doing author events and taking selfies with flip phones , back we had to like turn it around and then take the picture , and so it would be fuzzy and off center And there'd be like a thumbnail in the way , a literal thumbnail , because you took the picture wrong . Those days , something interesting happened Two clients from my freelance writing business , it turns out found my novel Write it , my first novel , write it . Reach out to me and say , joshua , i've wanted to write a book longer than you've been alive , and you did it twice . I don't know how you did that , because it's actually good with the . You hear the , the hits .

Jack Heald

Because it doesn't suck .

Joshua Lisec

Yes , you hear the hints of . So good they call you a fake , so good they can't believe that you have a two book deal . At 20 years old , this is my first experience as a ghost writer . And they said , joshua , could you help me write my book ? And both of these individuals were in their 60s and I had one of the right , their life story and also just spent some practical advice to their industry . But they didn't want it to be like an autobiography . I was born here and then worked here and I had family who did this and that sort of thing . They wanted to be interesting , engaging , kind of like a novel , and that's why my novel was a sales pitch And I didn't even realize it was a sales pitch for my services . So I said , okay , fine , sure I'll help you with your book . And I've been saying , okay , fine , sure I'll help you with your book ever since .

Joshua Lisec

And I've had traditionally published authors that I've worked with have some wild stories that I share inside the book of again how things are really done inside the traditional publishing industry and how behind the times they are .

Joshua Lisec

And then independent publishing a lot of my experiences with that of of , of working with bona fide experts like Dr Philip Ovedia and adding to their expertise , accruing to it the viable perception of authority being the uncontested authority in their niche . And that's what this , this book , is about , and so it's a little bit of a memoir , a little bit of my past 12 years as a professional ghost writer and the things that I've learned along the way , but the theme is not , hey , things I've learned by writing books for people that are kind of interesting , because that's not exciting . The context is what I've been able to repeatedly do , which is to create an authority brand with an authority book that makes people at first glance think there's no way that person's legit . So I better investigate further and purchase their book and then to be by their course and then join the coaching group just to make sure . And then by that point , they paid you thousands of dollars and they're a super fan and evangelizing on Twitter for you .

Jack Heald

What beliefs do most people have about how humans work ? that your study as a hypnotist and your work as a writer have proven to be false .

Joshua Lisec

I think most people believe that they're logical , They believe that their worldview makes sense , that they're internally consistent , that they're a pretty good person and that there's a quote that goes semi-mile . From time to time , in the kind of online skeptics community , People are skeptical of God and religion and UFOs and alternative treatments and whatever right in that community And that phrase is I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible , And the skeptics will use that quote as the description of their worldview . However , I have realized that that is not the case And I will begin to demonstrate this with another quote from another internet atheist skeptic hero , a fellow named James Randy . James Randy had this , I believe , is a million dollar challenge of prove to me that you have a supernatural ability or a miracle-making ability , I'll pay you a million dollars . And no , whenever paid me a million dollars , because then , if it's real , ha ha ha . Anyway , the quote from the late James Randy is along the lines of believing something does not make it true .

Joshua Lisec

I think most people believe that , But a professional hypnotist knows that that's not true . Anyone who studies the mind-body connection can understand that what we call self-fulfilling prophecy is more interesting than a cliché . It's the real deal And this is why hypnotists and hypnotherapists see every single day in their practices someone who comes to them with anxiety or perhaps trauma or nervousness or an addiction they're battling or whatever , let's say , or they're just tired , having trouble sleeping , or they're morbidly obese , frankly , and they want to lose some pounds and some inches .

Joshua Lisec

And so they're going to hypnotists for usually the negative emotions surrounding what it is that they're struggling with Otherwise there wouldn't be an impetus , there wouldn't be pain to go and solve that problem . But what hypnotists and hypnotherapists see and report is , without touching the person , the person , even done remotely , even over the phone , hypnotists with their client , hypnosis have seen remission of diseases . They've seen what might be called cures . Now we're not actually calling it cures because of the FDA , so just going to level with that , it's been reported . We're talking about anecdotes , not claims here . But hypnosis and hypnotherapists consistently see these results of people actually experiencing physical changes as a result of the hypnosis experience . During the hypnosis experience , the client was given suggestions , or , more so , commands , inside of the story that was being told , while they were in that zoned out trance state about how they feel and what's going on in their body . And so what happened is the person subconscious , absorbed , received that new belief as a statement , as a new truth for them , and it seems as though the body sorted itself out And there was remission of the disease , there was alleviation of the symptom . Now you can see , sometimes there's an issue with this , where a person is experiencing a pain because of , let's say , a debilitating disease that's forming . The hypnotist does not want to get rid of the symptom . In that case , because that's actually a sign , you need to go get professional , actually perhaps a surgery associated with this issue . But , in any case , believing something made it true And this is something I've noticed with ghost-friending clients who have very different worldviews and that the story , their life story , the book that they want to write , the advice they're going to dispense , it seems from their perspective that it's all true .

Joshua Lisec

So there is one one day . I like to share this story . There was one day which I was meeting with four clients a number of years ago . The first was a member of the Church of Jesus Christ who died of asaints . The next was a member of the Sikh society , also known as the Sikhs , the Indian religion , but they're called the Sikhs .

Joshua Lisec

And the next person was kind of a Buddhist , kind of a New Age , kind of a Hindu , something going on there . And then the other was a devout Roman Catholic And all four of their worldviews were internally consistent And whatever beliefs that they had had seemed to comport with their understanding of reality itself . And so , as the ghost writer , i believed each of their worldviews and accepting it as internally consistent as a filter on reality . And that was a real mindbender because , from their perspective , when they projected what they believe into the world , the world showed it back like a mirror And they were able to predict with accuracy what was going to happen next for themselves as individuals and their families and in their businesses , and as even advice to dispense . And I don't think most people recognize that . We think that , oh , we should believe what's true . Well , sometimes a belief can make something true .

Jack Heald

I heard of an interview on I think it was Joe Rogan . I want to say five , six years ago , this mathematician , you know , brain the size of the planet , talking about the , his perception that what we perceive as real is in fact , a construct of our brains and that our brains are designed or have evolved or whatever word you want to use for how we got here , Not to show us reality , but basically just to keep us alive . That , for all intents and purposes , what we perceive as reality is simply the user interface that exists between us and the actual hardware of reality . Sounds like that's what you're describing .

Joshua Lisec

Yes , it seems to be the case because when you think about religion generally speaking , i know this is , this , is this seems a few universes away from a metabolic health , but I do . I do still think there's some relationship .

Jack Heald

We're going against the consensus here . A meta level Yep .

Joshua Lisec

Meta level . Yes , there is a meme that goes viral from time to time on social media . We know it as the bell curve . Where there's the , there's the hyper intelligent , wise one with a hood on one side and on the other side it's kind of the dummy , the low IQ dummy , and in the middle is the is the crying , whining midwit who has to have it a certain way , and I tweeted a few times the same statement above the wise one and the dummy God is real . They both say God is real , and then the middle one says no , evolution by natural selection , the Cambrian explosion , god's not a provable concept .

Joshua Lisec

Cope , cope , cope , cope , cope , cope , cope , cope , cope , cope , cope , cope , cope , cope and all this , this cope , as you like to say about it . And we realize that .

Belief Systems and Concrete Outcomes

Joshua Lisec

If it's a simple , a sensible quiz , if someone believes that they're an eternal being and that everything they do is being recorded to be played back to them on judgment day , is that person more likely or less likely to be a criminal ? The answer is obvious . Does it matter if the belief is true or does believing it make it true from the perspective of the individual and those around them ? And this is what I noticed goes running for people who had wildly different belief systems . If I were to say , well , that's not true , they would say what are you talking about ? Of course it's true . Everything in my life proves it true .

Joshua Lisec

So maybe there's a little bit of confirmation bias , maybe there's a little bit of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy . That's where there is a result And hey , you can't have that . Hey , mom's cancer into remission . That's her answer of prayer . Oh , but the dog died . Well , that was God's will . And so there's an explanation for each of these justification , so that everything is , in reality , can be consistent . Something that our mutual friend , michael Gimmerin points out is that he might say endorse , he might say support , he might say a fan of , but he points out that the best ideologies , religions , belief systems and worldviews are those that encourage men and women to marry and have multiple children . And he points out he is a fan of those because those are the only , those are going to be the only ones that last millennium Yeah , those are the ones that are lindy .

Joshua Lisec

Yes , and so does it matter if what those people believe is true or false . Literally , some might say no , as a ghost writer might say no , having believed those things even for a few moments . I have different . I have a number of different religions I'm a personal fan of . I may not be a member of them , but I'm a fan of them because of the reality in which I inhabit , ghost writing . For those individuals , it was a better way to live and to view and to think and to be than whatever . The default American secular version is where I want to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible .

Jack Heald

What's the weirdest worldview you had to inhabit in order to produce a ghost written book ?

Joshua Lisec

A film might know this because I shared this one before , but there was an individual a number of years ago who believed that he was the reincarnated Jesus Christ . Not a joke . He actually believed that . The funny thing is , about two-thirds of the way through the project he canceled it , noped out of there and then , after not paying the remaining 40% that I was owed , published the book anyway , even though I'd already finished it . He doesn't want to pay his invoices And like okay , jesus is broke .

Dr. Philip Ovadia

Jesus Christ .

Joshua Lisec

Get Jesus is broke . I don't think he was a real Jesus , though .

Dr. Philip Ovadia

That was one rule for you that I never quite bought , yeah . So yeah to , i guess , bring it back around a little bit . Then , when we look at something you know and again I'll use health as the example , but I think this applies to a lot of things you know , if we're trying to maybe apply this to an area where there are pretty concrete measurements , concrete outcomes , so you know , wealth might be an even better example of you know you have a lot of money or you don't have a lot of money . You know how do you marry that uncertainty

The many versions of the truth

Dr. Philip Ovadia

about . You know what is true when you're trying to get to . You know certain concrete outcomes And you know , when we look at wealth , for instance , there'll be , you know , one person will tell you well , the way to get wealthy is to save all your money and sort of be a miser and never spend .

Dr. Philip Ovadia

And there'll be another camp that says , well , no , you just need to make more money . You know , in whatever you do , you know charge more and do more and make more , and that's the true way to become wealthy . So how do you kind of , you know , sift through that when there can be so many different versions of the truth ?

Joshua Lisec

Yes . So there's a few things to keep in mind . The first is , by and large , everything is relative . So we want to first ask ourselves well , relative to your position , what should you do personally ? So the question , should you , you know , should we the royal ? we should we save more or should we try to earn more ? Well , it depends . The answer to that is always it depends .

Joshua Lisec

And this is why writing books is so difficult is because you don't exactly know who's going to be reading the book and where they're at . And this is why success and self-help books and business and entrepreneurship and marketing , and all these , all these books , the advice is so broad . They'll say , well , you could try real estate investing , or you could try network marketing , or you could try dropshipping , or you could try four X trading . Sign up today . And it's like , well , how do I tell which is a scam and which is a worse scam , and what should I actually do ? And so the default is just do nothing , stay with the status quo , because you don't really know . And so this is where a deeper message , a found proxy , even a foundational message , is personal agency . This is something you talk about in the very end of , in the very end of staff my operating table , phil , is taking back control of your health and not looking and saying , okay , well , what's the consensus ? What are the institutions are saying ? You talk about stark outcomes . You're either going to end up on your operating table or you're not .

Joshua Lisec

As a person who's concerned about their heart health , but what that individual should do is going to be based on their relative position , on their relative existing health . Is this somebody who has done everything they possibly could to optimize their health And they've been wearing a continuous glucose monitor for 12 months already ? And what is this ? somebody who eats fast food five times a week and their version of eating real whole food is the green beans that are in the Hungryman meal that they get from the frozen intersection at Kroger , and to them , carrot cake is a vegetable , and it's going to depend on what that person should do . So the advice is kind of going to be different , but what's not different is the goal and what it looks like to get there for everyone , and this is the importance of a step by step with no step skipped system .

Joshua Lisec

So in your case , phil , and staff my operating table , there's a certain set of beliefs that one needs to have in order to ultimately buy in to the ultimate outcome , that this is the right way to do it . And then there are the principles of metabolic health that , regardless of where your starting point is , these are all principles that you will want to check off , so to speak , throughout your , throughout your life . And , by the way , here's how you can tell whether or not you're in a metabolically healthy . It's got like a checklist right . So it seems like everything is a process of procedure , a checklist or a system when it comes to getting what it is that we want . And this is why outcome is so important , and I don't even say with choosing which religion you want to join , which is the most likely going to give you the best outcomes .

Joshua Lisec

You want the happiness and the success that you want in life , and that might be a more interesting conversation to have than what's literally true on that , on that topic , because , oh well , what's true for you , given what you want to achieve in life ? I don't know , not a lot of people are going to go with me on that , but we map that back into health . We realize it makes sense , at least on the topic of health , and also , maybe well , where what you should do is dependent on well , what is your risk profile ? What is your appetite for that ? Well , how much money do you already have ? Where do you have invested ?

Joshua Lisec

What's your portfolio look like ? Oh , you don't have a portfolio . Oh , you're $100,000 in debt . Oh , you know you have a job . What you tell that person is going to be different from the person who is 65 and is not sure if they're going to be able to retire . It's also going to be different from the 23 year old hustler who just sold their marketing agency for $12 million . The advice is going to be different , and this is something I like about stay off my operating table .

Jack Heald

I want to know about this 23 year old hustler .

Joshua Lisec

Yes , because I've written for a few of those types . What I like about stay off my operating table as a tome of advice is and I think this is a good example of multifaceted , maybe multiple , paths to get where you want to go , unlike other books in the low-carbs space that say this is the one way to eat . if you're not eating this , you're wrong . What's that my operating table does is it presents multiple perspectives on how to get what you want be it the Mediterranean diet or a true carnivore , 100% carnivore diet , or even a vegetarian and vegan diet and specific adjustments to make and things to watch out for on each of them , so that , regardless of what path you find yourself , relative where you are to other people and what they eat , there is still a way for you to obey the principles of metabolic health and measure your progress so that you can manage your journey towards the transformation in your health that you want . I think it's probably one of the best books that's ever been written on the topic of metabolic health , if I do say so myself .

Jack Heald

You're not the only one who thinks that .

Dr. Philip Ovadia

So you see , I can certainly second that .

Ghostwriting and Navigating Information Environment

Jack Heald

Josh , what's one of the best lessons that you've learned from your clients as you've written their books ?

Joshua Lisec

One of the best lessons that I've learned . it comes from and also speaks towards hypnosis , and that's that you can't just start the book . Okay , chapter one . here's the first thing to know where , the first thing to do , or usually hey , here's my origin story . That's not really where the book should begin . It's to how people actually buy books , which is , nowadays . most people are not browsing in a literal bookstore before they buy a book and reading a few chapters and sitting there with it while they're enjoying their little coffee and they're reading a couple of chapters of it and then they're paying a forward , or vice versa , the way books are bought nowadays . if somebody is scrolling and trolling on Amazon , they see a cover that was kind of neat . They click it , read the description , click , look inside , read the first 15 pages or so that are free , Read the random sample from it . But it's that first 15 pages or so , that , that first sample that's free .

Joshua Lisec

Most people think that that should be the beginning of the book . So telling their story , or hey , here's the first step , or here's the advice that you should start with . No , no , no , no , no , no , no , no . That should be your sales letter for the book . That's where you give people the hook .

Joshua Lisec

You build up a case for the problem so they can see themselves in it . You agitate so people can feel it . You introduce the solution that they desire that will get them where they want to go . You remove risk from that solution . You give a little bit of proof that it already works And then you tease additional outcomes that are going to happen and build the case for why it's going to be worth the four or five , six hours to read the book . And then the next chapter begins And that's something that I've learned across industries is that every single person's book needs to begin as if the opening chapter is a sales letter . So think of it as the sales letter chapter or as chapter zero . But that's where the book really needs to start , regardless of industry is selling the book before people have actually bought it .

Jack Heald

I'm going to follow up with a question about what is one lesson you've learned that has positively affected how you live your life outside of your life as a writer , outside of your career ?

Joshua Lisec

Yes , yes , so I pointed out that as a ghost writer , i'm acting in print on behalf of these different authors And part of that is putting them on like a , perhaps like a costume , but not like a costume party , halloween stereotype of what the person's belief system , or like a character , but actually believing it . Wearing their worldview might be a better way to put it . And by wearing different people's worldview you can begin to see what's most helpful , what's most useful and what's most destructive and what's most instructive , and one of the things that I've learned from that . It's actually been a negative that I've reframed as a positive , and this is going back to the very beginning of the conversation . I pointed out that at the top of any given industry tend to be people who optimize for marketing , brand awareness , spending money , advertising . They're not the great at getting results , like the people who are totally unknown , best kept secrets , who only charge 150 bucks a session , and then their competitors $150,000 minimum to work with them , and yet the $150 word of mouth marketed person who has a website from 2002 , they get much better results .

Joshua Lisec

I work with both kinds of people And what I've learned from the people who optimize for marketing is that they're vacuous . Most often they don't have a system , they don't have a process . They have tired advice usually which goes like it's just mindset , it's all mindset , just mindset , mindset , mindset , mindset . They talk about mindset all the time And that's been a little tell for me that when someone leads with mindset they're usually full of crap , they're usually vacuous , they usually don't actually have practical advice . And so as I navigate the information environment in any industry , the people who sound like my vacuous clients for my early days , who I don't promote by name and I don't want people to wrap it by their books And I can say that because that's the way it is , it do be like that . As they say , you learn how people are manipulating others in any given industry and how to detect things And I'm like , okay , that person talking the primacy of mindset , it's all mindset , it's all mindset . If you don't want it , you don't want to , if you don't get the results because you don't want it hard enough , you know you don't have the right mindset .

Joshua Lisec

Advice like that is a tell for okay , this is someone who I would not want to go straight for because I've go straight in for them before . So it helps to tune out signal from noise And it's people who are giving specific , counterintuitive , non-obvious advice that sounds like it's BS . That makes me go . Oh , there's no way , that's legit . That's my signal . Oh , this person's the real deal . They're so good I think they're fake . I need to pay attention to that person And that's what the reframe of my book really is . Is that it does people that give a review to people like Phil and say I did in two or three days what the experts in the industry say is not possible to do in less than a month . That's the okay . This is person's onto something here I need to pay attention .

Jack Heald

That's good , i like that . Okay , phil , you still with us , man .

Dr. Philip Ovadia

Yeah , i think that's probably a great place to leave it because , you know , i think that says what needs to be said . Ultimately , we all should want to be called fake . I think that should be the goal here , so we've . I've certainly enjoyed having you as part of this journey and my quest to be called a quack and be called a fake . So let people know . First of all , the book is , at the time that this is going to be released , still on pre-order , but coming out shortly . June 15th , i believe , is the release date . That's right .

Joshua Lisec

The dust jacket . The dust jacket and hardcover . The softcover ebook and the audiobook should be going live a couple of days after the 15th , once the audiobook platform finishes there everything and pushes it out everywhere . So I'll have all of those out and about . Thank you , Perfect .

Dr. Philip Ovadia

And for people who want to maybe get in touch with you and find out more about working with you as a ghost writer , where should they go for that ?

Joshua Lisec

Get real simple and straightforward lysekghostwritingcom .

Jack Heald

And I happen to know that you're on Twitter as well Can ?

Joshua Lisec

we direct you over there . Yeah , at Joshua Lysek . That's where my most interesting shenanigans are .

Jack Heald

All right , very good .

Dr. Philip Ovadia

I can definitely vouch for that .

Jack Heald

Joshua is a good follow . I followed him for a while and I can recommend it , if for no other reason than that he just pokes the hornet's nest often enough to keep it entertaining , all right , well , i t hink that's a wrap for today . As always , go ahead and subscribe to the podcast through whatever podcast platform that you use . We drop a new episode at midnight Pacific Time every Tuesday . I think I've got that right . When we're going from 11.59 pm to 12.00 am , that's when the day changes , right , okay , 12.00 am . It drops at 12.00 am Tuesdays .

Dr. Philip Ovadia

Indeed , and we always get confused , since you're in Arizona anyway . Jack Time has no truth in Arizona . It switches where it wants to be .

Jack Heald

It adds an extra level of complexity , And I would argue from my point of view . My truth , my worldview is that you all are the one who keep fiddling with time . This is the stay off my operating table podcast . Our guest has been ghost writer Joshua Lysec . Thanks for joining us . We'll talk to you next time , Thank you .