Optimal Nutrition for Peak Performance? Marc Lobliner with Dr. O - #120

Ever wonder why carbohydrates have been dubbed the 'non-essential' macronutrient? Or why consuming ample protein is touted as crucial for peak performance? 

This episode, featuring bodybuilder Mark Lobliner, creator of the Outright Bar, provides insights into the science and strategy of eating for optimal performance. We dissect dietary approaches, the importance of palatability in snack bar design and how supplements play their part in a holistic diet.

Carbohydrates: the great debate. How vital are they for your training regime? We dissect their purpose, the power of fiber, and how they can enhance your workout. What about regular blood work? What about the use of insulin mimetics for peak performance? 

Taking it a step further, we delve into the issues of body fat and the implications of a primarily overweight population. We grapple with ways to measure and monitor body fat and the difference between visceral and subcutaneous fat.

As we transition into exploring protein, we examine sources, considerations, and the role of fast and slow proteins, BCAA supplementation, the implications of a vegan diet, and how digestive enzymes can affect the shelf life and taste of protein powder. 

Finally, we talk about why individuals with specific dietary needs might require them. 

Join us as we navigate the intricate labyrinth of peak performance nutrition. Prepare yourself for a nutrient-rich journey that could redefine the way you fuel your body.

Chances are, you wouldn't be listening to this podcast if you didn't need to change your life and get healthier.

So take action right now. Book a call with Dr. Ovadia's team. 

One small step in the right direction is all it takes to get started. 

How to connect with Stay Off My Operating Table:

Twitter:

• Dr. Ovadia: @iFixHearts
• Jack Heald: @JackHeald5

Learn more:

• Learn more about Dr. Ovadia's personalized health coaching
• Get Dr. Ovadia's book Stay Off My Operating Table on Amazon.
• Take Dr. Ovadia's metabolic health quiz: iFixHearts
• visit Dr. Ovadia's website: Ovadia Heart Health
• visit Jack Heald's website: CultYourBrand.com

Theme Song : Rage Against
Written & Performed by Logan Gritton & Colin Gailey
(c) 2016 Mercury Retro Recordings

Transcript

Brian Keith: 0:35

Roll. Hello folks, you're on with Dr Philip Ovedi, the heart surgeon, Mark LeBlinder, the bodybuilder, creator of the outright bar. Today we're talking about what to eat for peak performance from the perspective of a guy who's more up than you and a guy who's done way more heart surgeries than you. Mark, welcome to the I Fixed Hearts show.

Marc Lobliner: 0:58

Thank you for having me, man. It's great to be here and I love the approach you guys take to holistic health and you look at doctors and, I think, just earning the trust back of the community that doctors are in it to make you live longer, not just to kinda make money, push a pill we all gotta make money but at the end of the day I think you get into medicine to help people live longer and better, and that's also what I do. So I personally love doctors who look at it from that perspective, right, so very honored to be here.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 1:31

Yeah, great to have you here, mark, really excited for this discussion. We've been, I think, interacting now for quite a while on social media and a lot of the nuance, I guess, as when it comes to nutritional, dietary lifestyle approaches, it's kinda difficult to get across there and a lot of people would maybe look at hour-to-accounts and think we were really putting out different messaging, but I don't think that's the case. I think there's a lot that we have in common and then I think there's some nuance that comes to what your goals are, where you're starting from, what problems you're trying to solve, and that's why I was really excited for us to have this conversation so we can get into some of that and help our audiences maybe decipher some of what would appear to be conflicting information out there.

Brian Keith: 2:30

Well, let's start off with the complex question here, which is that, dr Vady, you talk about eat whole, real food, do not eat things in packages. And you're talking to Mark, that is a company of things that is food in packages. Mark, can you talk about what the outright bar is when you put into it for a minute, so Dr Vady can talk about what point does having food in a package, as opposed to slaughtering the cow yourself, make sense?

Marc Lobliner: 2:53

Well, I can't, okay, let me. So it depends what's in that package, right? So when we created the outright bar, we wanted healthy fats, and again, we can argue all day what healthy fats are. I'm looking at mono and saturates, you know, and, granted, I can't just put beef tallow in it, that'd be really nasty. So that's what we went nut butter, peanut butter, almond butter, cashew butter are three options Honey as the carb source, no prebiotic fiber or glycerin. And then we also went with whey protein isolate as the protein source. So that's the base.

Marc Lobliner: 3:21

Now there are inclusions in there in microgram amounts, right, because you got to make it taste good. So you put the cookie bits, this, that and the third. But the base, 99% of the bar is gonna be comprised of peanut butter, is gonna be comprised of whey protein isolate, gonna be comprised of honey. Now again, am I better off if I'm sitting down and having a meal? Maybe we can make that argument all day long, but it's meant to be a snack, right? It's meant to be something you eat to fuel your workouts or whatever. And so that's where the outright bar, even though it's in a package, so is. There's a lot of really good, healthy, whole food beef jerky that is found in a package. So just cause it's on the perimeter of the grocery store doesn't necessarily make it bad.

Brian Keith: 4:03

Dr Ovedia the rebuttal.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 4:05

Yeah, no, I mean really I don't think it's a rebuttal, I think this is a perfect demonstration of kind of the nuance that we get into. And yes, you know, first and foremost I'm gonna say eat whole real food, but certainly recognize that there are times when that might not be practical. And then, you know, what I would say is not all let's call these protein bars or snack bars. You know are remotely the same. And so if you are gonna go for an option like a protein bar for specific purposes you know you're not building your whole nutritional approach around these bars then, yeah, look for the ones with the cleanest ingredients.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 4:51

And it sounds like, you know, outright bar would be high on my list there. And you know, I guess, like you said, yeah, we can get into all those. You know maybe beef tallow would be better than you know, some of these nut butters or maybe coconut oil versus nut butter. But I also understand and I'd love to actually hear Mark's perspective on it, because I've never tried to build, you know, produce a protein bar. You know what some of the nuances that you get into as to put, as you know, what's possible versus what's ideal when you're trying to build a snack bar like this.

Marc Lobliner: 5:34

So I look at supplements as supplements. They don't substitute, they supplement. So you need it to be palatable. Because as much as you look at your enthusiasts or people who follow you who maybe have had that near-death experience, and there's a lot of people who are literally on their last leg with diabetes I'm not even joking, had their leg chopped off, who still can't put down the candy bar, and you've seen these people probably more than I have, dr and so what we try to do is create supplements to help you live a better, optimal life, but also food products that are better for you than the alternative, than the Snickers bar, than the Moon Pie. But also for a fitness enthusiast like me who wants to work out, I want something that I can eat that'll give me readily available carbohydrate for my training, because intensity of training is different than a desk, a desk junkie, as I like to call them. So we can argue all day about the application of carbohydrate and fat in your diet. I'm a fan of both. I'm not against ketogenic diets, but I do think that you know the data is pretty demonstrative that carbohydrate do enhance performance in certain activities, especially ones requiring short bursts of energy, whereas if you're running a marathon. I think a ketogenic diet is actually optimal, so it's a time and place in those nuances that you were talking about, dr. So what I'm looking at when I produce something is number one it has to taste really good. I hate to put taste first, because I'm the kind of guy who I'd eat a brick covered in poop if it made me perform better. However, 99.99% of people won't do that. So, as someone who flavors and who formulates foods, number one is I need them to be able to consume it. Number two is I want to use the highest quality possible ingredients. And number three is I have to make it where it doesn't cost $10 a bar, because no one can afford that, especially in today's economy. So those three factors you have to play a role. So when I'm creating something, I want to create the best thing that'll help the most people possible and deliver something that I would want to consume.

Marc Lobliner: 7:38

And when I created this part, it was created for my kids to eat between soccer games they were playing. My daughter was, I think, 10 or 11 years old, playing center mid. That's about seven miles of running a game. Three games a day. What do you? You can't feed her a candy bar.

Marc Lobliner: 7:51

The protein bars are full of prebiotic fiber, which will not be optimal for when performing. Can't really eat a whole food meal between games If you've ever performed at that level of running. It's very tough to digest. So that was the reason I created it, and it happened that it was not meant to blow up like it did. It was just literally meant for my family to consume Maybe a few of our customers direct, and then it just hit off cause it appears that most people are looking to fill that void. So as much as you and I I as someone who cares, who has worked in health and fitness my entire adult life, and you as someone who wants to see less people on your operating table we want to give people options that will help them, not hurt them, to give them sustenance, to basically optimize their day.

Brian Keith: 8:36

I have a story that's gross before Dr Vady shows his next story. I used to be actively a mountain climber and I was going up Glacier Peak the fifth tallest mountain, washington state, I think and I was read about this whole carnivore thing in this whole avoiding carbs, and I thought, yeah, I'm going to go, I'm going to get after this. And Mike Mutzel blessed us, told me you don't, you cannot actually change your diet as fast as you think you can. If only I listened to him. I, being smart, ate mostly cheese and meat sticks while going up to the base camp to go climb Glacier Peak. It went horribly poorly gastrointestinal, and then a forest fire started to nearby and smoked us out. At least I left other folks if I'm going. But I discovered then in fact Mike Mutzel was correct you can in fact not change your entire diet in one month, and also doing that as you're trying to literally climb a mountain is stupid. So my attempts to be extreme really didn't work.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 9:31

Yeah, I think I think you know kind of baseline diet and what you're used to and making adjustments over time. I'd love to hear Mark's thoughts on you know what level of performance let's say your activity you know. Does this really become an issue? Because oftentimes what we see is people's perception of you know what level they're performing at and they hear someone you know, like Mark, saying that you know, if you really want to, you know, be a high level bodybuilder, you're going to need carbs. And they say, okay, well, if I'm going to the gym, you know, twice a week and doing you know kind of my 15 minute, you know 20 minute workout, I need carbs. Because Mark said I need carbs to be a bodybuilder and you know, I'd just love to hear kind of how you help people think about that and what sort of you know framework you use with some of the people that you work with on when do you really need you know carbs or X level of carbs and when can you, you know, maybe get away without them.

Marc Lobliner: 10:40

That's a great, great question and I think there's there's a lot to digest and a lot to unravel there. At the end of the day, I will just state this emphatically, because I'm a man of science Nobody actually needs carbohydrate. Like carbohydrate is your body loves it, your brain takes it up first. Glucose your body loves glucose, just likes using it. However, you don't need carbohydrate. It's the only non-essential macronutrient. You need essential fatty acids, you need essential amino acids. You don't need carbohydrate. There is no essential carbohydrate.

Marc Lobliner: 11:14

I can make an argument and be argued with left and right about science being very supportive of fiber and the way it works in the body and it feeding the you know, feeding your gut bacteria and also you know the link to that and lower, lower morbidity rates. I think we can look at that. We can absolutely look at that, but we don't need carbohydrate. Now, if I'm a sedentary individual and I'm starting a workout program, go to the gym three days a week I probably don't need to center carbohydrate around my training. However, if I'm someone who's looking to optimize their training, who does not want to cut carbohydrate or who just wants to balance diet some people just feel better and like life better and some people aren't willing to give up certain foods, like it's good to know optimal, right, like optimal, this optimal, that that's great. Most people can't even turn down a Twinkie at the gas station when they fill up their car. So we have to be realistic. So when I, when I see people who are training who like certain foods, like well, okay, we can maybe put those carbohydrate around training, you know we could do that. But if you're, if you're looking at beating personal best, if you're looking at going to the gym and training at a high level, if you're doing short bursts, meaning if you're, if you're going for higher intensity training and you're doing, you're doing a good amount of reps, you're burning through glucose and you'll find and I've done this, I've I've I wrote a book called the carbohydrate haters diet, like I'm one of the OG carb haters but as someone who's done it one way and done it the other, you know I and many other people and some people don't the carnivore people obviously don't they love their lifestyle and more power to them Find that training with carbohydrate is more enjoyable.

Marc Lobliner: 13:07

You get better gains and for those of us who are training for aesthetics, which are a lot of enthusiasts in the gym you get that pump. You know you can replace a lot of that with electrolytes, but it's still not the same as when you have adequate sodium, adequate hydration and also carbohydrates. So I don't think there's a necessary level of athlete, but most people don't need and I say need carbohydrate. It just makes training and life more enjoyable for some. And for those like my wife she's Italian like you're going to tell her to stop eating pasta. Good luck with that, you know. So I'm a realist, like I love optimal and I like carbohydrate. I like toast and my eggs, you know, and that's something I'm, I want to eat every day. So how do I make it so that works best for me?

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 13:54

Yeah, I think great points and you know I would certainly agree with sort of earn your carbohydrates and you know you know, put them towards specific purposes if you're going to have them. You know another interesting question that I think comes up around. That is okay. So how do I figure out? You know how much you know and when do I know, when I've crossed that threshold, that it's too much carbohydrates or I'm not, you know, adequately using them, or perhaps it's the wrong type of carbohydrates and I don't know. You know how much. You've worked with continuous glucose monitors, if you recommend them, for you know the people you work with, but I view them as a great tool for getting the feedback about. You know, is it too much carbohydrate? Is it the wrong type of carbohydrate? Is the wrong timing for your carbohydrate? All of these things I think can be fine tuned with a continuous glucose monitor and then, you know, with monitoring the right blood work over a more long term basis.

Marc Lobliner: 15:03

Absolutely my insulin. I am a frequent. It comes to blood sugar regulation and insulin. My insulin level, I believe, on my last blood work was one, so I'm reading at ketogenic levels Now. I also use insulin mimetics blood glucose disposal. So again, this is not an ad. I'm just telling you what I do.

Marc Lobliner: 15:18

There's a product we made by Ambrosia, which is one of my brands, called Alchemy, and what it has it has NC2, which is a phenomenal ingredient seaweed off the east coast of Canada. It's actually. The solvent used is water. It's actually. It's really cool. Manufacturing Burberry is another one.

Marc Lobliner: 15:35

Mixed opinions on burberry because the data on metformin and muscle damage or, you know, preventing muscle gains. I never noticed that when I took metformin, but I've been a huge fan of insulin mimetics since early 2000s. I was in my twenties. You know I was taking our alfalfa-poic acid.

Marc Lobliner: 15:53

So my thoughts, if you look at all of the data and you come down to when, to when is too many carbs? And I will say that a lot of times diets or macronutrient, macronutrient ratios on diets comes down to losing weight. So the number one thing is if you're fat, you're going to be unhealthy. If you're not fat, if you're of healthy weight, you're more likely to be healthy. So when is too many carbohydrates? Well, number one is I think you should hit certain things like obviously keto. Ketosis is different. I believe you want your protein around 20 to 30% and you're fat higher between 70 and 80. You correct me if I'm wrong, doctor to stay in a ketogenic state. Obviously, that changes at the longer you're doing keto you can put more protein in, whereas for me what I like to do is I recommend people get at least a gram of protein per pound of body weight. So for a 200 pound male that's 200 grams of carbs. I'm sorry, protein, I think. Carbs For fat I like 0.5 grams per pound of body weight generally speaking and that's not factoring in what kinds of fat, but generally speaking that'd be 100 grams of fat for a 200 pound person. And then what I like to do is fill the rest in the calories in with carbohydrate. So if you have, let's say you know, 400 calories left over, that's 100 grams of carbs. So that's how I like to do it for myself. If you're doing a macronutrient type thing and I found that to work good it usually ends up being around a 40, 40, 30 somewhere in their type macronutrient split. But I am not a super high carbohydrate guy.

Marc Lobliner: 17:35

Now, for athletes who are burning a ton, doing two a days for a basketball player, a football player, for a hockey player, soccer player, like my daughter, you know, like in season, you know I'm going to kick that up and we're going to put that around training and we're going to make it readily available. And the data albeit a lot of it was found was funded by Gatorade, because who else is going to fund it? Even the Tipton studies back in the 90s and early 2000s. We do have tremendous data on performance and intra workout and para workout carbohydrate intake. So when I look at all of that, I'm like you know what? Yeah, we, we do need, we do need to augment carbohydrate intake for athletes, but that's an extreme case for most people that too much carbohydrate is enough to make you fat. Once you start getting fat, that's too much carbohydrate back down.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 18:26

Yeah, the only the only thing I would argue with there is I. I think that you know you can be unhealthy without being fat, and I think so using the metric of when I get fat is too much may not be the right thing. You know, and I do think keeping an eye on things like your insulin levels, like your hemoglobin A1C, like your, you know, continuous glucose monitor readings are important, because I do see plenty of people who aren't fat but they are unhealthy, they're insulin resistant, and you know there are lots of things that go into that. You know, not having enough muscle, being sarcopenic is certainly going to, you know, contribute to that not being active. And then certain genetic backgrounds, you know, most notably Asian, indian genetics or such that they get insulin resistant and diabetic without getting fat, and so those are some of the things that you want to look out for there.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 19:33

You know, I think your macro approach is is, honestly, is great. You know, I also say one, one gram of protein for a pound of body weight, you know. And then you know I say fat and or carbs are going to be to meet your energy demands and it's going to depend where you're coming from, you know, if you're obese and you got a ton of body fat you're trying to burn through, then you're going to want to dial that down If you're going for a true therapeutic ketogenic diet. You have some neurologic condition that you're trying to treat heart failure, maybe some psychiatric conditions that you really need that high level of ketosis, like you said. You know, kind of a four to one ratio, fat to protein, is what you're going to need to get there.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 20:21

But overall, yeah, great, great approach, and I use a very similar approach with my patients, the difference being that most of them are not. You know, high level athletes are not high. You know high performing bodybuilders, and so you know those ratios are going to end up looking different in the end, because most of them are coming with a background of insulin resistance and therefore that carb threshold has to go way down. So and again, I think that's just the different, different types of people that we work with, and this is where the you know, and that's why I think it's so great to be having this discussion.

Brian Keith: 21:03

Let's get your thoughts on this question right here from Danny Smith. Danny says I lift weights about five times a week and do it fasted, but then after I eat two to three pounds of meat both for Dr Ravati and for Mark. How do you view this particular way of doing it, or what questions should Danny be asking to dial in his nutrition?

Marc Lobliner: 21:22

Dr. Would you like to go first or like me to go first?

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 21:25

Yeah, I'll jump in first, I guess, on that one. So yeah, I think I'm going to assume that you know. Background here is that Danny's doing a carnivore diet and so he's not having a bunch of other carbs and stuff with his two to three pounds of meat. But I would say it sounds like a great approach. It sounds like you know, and especially if you're getting the results that you're looking for, you know, everything sounds pretty ideal there for me and I would just be saying you want to be keeping an eye on some of the metrics we talked about earlier and you know what your goals are and are you meeting those goals is kind of a high level question that I would be thinking about in evaluating whether what Danny is doing is is a good approach or not.

Marc Lobliner: 22:19

Yeah, I, you know what, Dr. I completely agree. The one thing I'd want to know I always ask, like, what are your goals and where are you at? You know, like, is his goal to compete? Is his goal to run a 5k or play XFL football? You know there's there's a lot of things involved.

Marc Lobliner: 22:34

Before a general population person and we're looking at you know I'm going to guess over 70% after 2020, all the data from 2019, my good friend Alan Roberts always points that out. You know we have a 70% plus obese population overweight. Let's go overweight. Obese is a bit higher. I will put money on overweight. So, if you're that standard person, you have plenty of fat stores. You have plenty of energy stored up.

Marc Lobliner: 23:01

Go train in the morning, fasted. Most of the mornings I I usually have a carbohydrate drink during training. Again, I'm extremely lean. My insulin sensitivity is extremely high. I can. My body just churns through carbohydrate. We're different, right, I have high muscle mass, very low body fat. If you are a normal person, and I also want to know what else you're eating throughout the day, right, like if you're eating two to three pounds of meat after working out, fasted and then later on you go to five guys and get the big bag of fries and the cheeseburger which is delicious, by the way. I would, I would highly suggest that you probably step back. But, as the doctor said, everything I say, and even before when we spoke about what went too many carbs is enough. I think I love that.

Marc Lobliner: 23:52

I think that we all we need, we need to do blood work, like we need to have at least annual blood work, and we need to measure those things. And if you don't have a doctor who knows what blood work you most, most doctors will give you a metabolic panel and lipid profile. That's it. You need to run everything. You need to make sure they run all the A1C's. You need to make sure they run all of that, not just metabolic, not just lipid, not just cholesterol, because we found out that cholesterol doesn't tell us the whole story and also the scan. You know this better than I, but I got the calcium scan too. That is fantastic.

Marc Lobliner: 24:26

So again like, well, I can't afford it. I don't have insurance. Okay, well, that's great until you're dead or until you have heart problems. You want to know what a big bill is? Go have a heart transplant. That'll cost you a ton of money. So if you have to invest $1,000 a year to get these tests run. If you, oh yeah, they are less. It's cost me 50 bucks, by the way, 50 bucks for my son.

Marc Lobliner: 24:48

So if you have to spend a thousand, let's say it's $1,000, like it's the one thing you do a year. It's the most important thing you do. You need to make sure you know where you're at. And if you haven't noticed like I don't know if you've been following this doc but a lot of bodybuilders have been dying of heart problems, and that's a whole another conversation of why it's happening. We all have our you know speculations and reasons, but at the end of the day, make sure your stuff's in order, get it checked. But, dude, here's the thing. If that diet's working for you, you feel great, you look great, I think. From an inflammation and an allergy standpoint, the carnivore diet's great. From if you have any seizure issues, whatever, you know, the ketogenic diet's great. There's two ways to look at things, but very few athletes there have been a few can perform at their peak again, going by the data available without carbohydrate.

Brian Keith: 25:43

Okay, I have another question for the two of you.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 25:46

Before. I just wanted to jump back in on cost of this stuff and just say that, yeah, well, under $1,000, I think you're covered for a year. You know a CAC scan most places are going to cost you a hundred bucks. You can get it as cheap as 50. I'm as 50. You know a good set of blood work, you know that I order for my patients that is, I think, very comprehensive, is going to be about $250. So if you do that two, maybe three times a year, you know you're still under $1,000. And I certainly agree it's a good investment in your health because, as you said, having a heart attack needing, you know, advanced medical care for heart failure or heart transplants, all of that stuff is going to be way more expensive in the long run.

Marc Lobliner: 26:37

And your chances of dying afterwards, like what is how long do you live after a widowmaker heart attack average? I mean, I think about five years, I think it was. It was not very long.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 26:46

Yeah, so one third of first time heart attacks are fatal. So there's a chance that you don't. You know you don't survive the first one and you don't want to mess around with that.

Marc Lobliner: 26:57

Yeah. So don't don't take your heart lightly, like don't do not. I mean the number one reason to exercise to get healthy, looking good as a byproduct. That's a, that's a side effect, but you need to again like your heart. It's amazing how this thing even works. Think about it. It's beating right now. You're not even doing it, it's just going and going. And I don't know if you knew this doctor, but last week my wife had an ablation. She had what is that? Tk? What is that? What is it SVT? She had SVT, svt and so, yeah, she had an ablation and it's just all the things that can go weird in the heart, like all the things that can be genetically off. Just make sure you take care of that bad boy.

Brian Keith: 27:47

Next question I'm curious from both your points of view. If we're looking at just body fat percentage and let's talk just about men right now, what is looking good look like and what is looking healthy, look like or feeling healthy?

Marc Lobliner: 28:02

I could take this one first, since you took the last one to your show. You tell me no, so that's a great question. I think that you know when you're looking at body fat that looks good. I think there is a level of genetics right. Some people just stay naturally lean. So for a lot of people to stay at the body fat I'm at would, and I'm naturally active you could tell I'm in a standup desk, I'm always fidgeting. So for me, staying at between six and 9% body fat is easy. It's just where my body likes to be, and my brother's the same way. My kids are the same way. You know we get well, not all of my kids, I have a child. That's the same way, right.

Marc Lobliner: 28:44

Whereas for health, looking at it like generally speaking, you could see abs at around 10% body fat, sometimes 12, depending on the thickness of your abs and your structure and your genetics. I would say, and generally speaking, that anywhere under 20% body fat would be somewhat healthy. You won't be fat, you won't be obese. I think 15% is what you'd consider. When you look at those pictures of like the beach and like the 80s and 90s, I'd say they were probably around 50%, nobody 15, not 50, 15%. Nobody was really fat, you know, nobody was really. There wasn't a belly hanging over the waist, for, like I wonder if that guy's seen his junk in a few years. Everybody looked healthy and well. So I think if you can maintain somewhere between 10 and 20%, that would be a great place.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 29:36

Yeah, I think that 20% number is a pretty good cut off as well. I would give a little bit more nuance maybe to the visceral fat versus subcutaneous fat. We know that visceral fat is particularly problematic and even though you may have low, you know in that 10 to 20% range total body fat, if you're carrying around excess visceral fat that's going to be problematic and you know measuring that comes down to. You can do dexa scanning, you can do MRIs to quantify your amount of abdominal visceral fat, which is really, you know, most important measurement to be looking at for that. So that's the extra wrinkle that I would put in. There is just, it's not only total body fat percentage but looking at your visceral versus subcutaneous fat levels is important as well.

Marc Lobliner: 30:42

Mark can you do dexa scans? You know what that was? I have not. You know I did weigh it back. I can't even remember what it was. It was back in like 2013. I have not I'm a blood work at the scan done, but I have not got a dexa in a long, long time.

Brian Keith: 30:59

Well. So at what point of athleticism is it no longer that relevant, because you can see the truth of what's inside you Like. At your point, the chances that you have some subcutaneous fat hiding somewhere seems pretty low. At what point do we know that we should do stuff like dexa, versus say, you know, other stuff is telling us that we're fine.

Marc Lobliner: 31:17

Well, I again the doctor no more about this than me Like this is not. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert at this, I'm not going to just spout off, but I would imagine that there would be some telltale signs that you're not as healthy as you think you are. Now in bodybuilders extremely lean people you could have abdominal distension, the beer gut, you know. You see that in athletes as well. I believe exogenous use of insulin does that to some athletes storage of visceral adipose tissue. But I would love to hear the doctor's take on this because something I'm wondering as well.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 31:52

Yeah, I mean, I think I think blood work is very informative here, I mean in good blood work, so that you're looking at your insulin levels, you're looking at your level of insulin resistance. You know, I would even point to something like lipid particle sizes, for instance, as you know, as information that can help you determine that you may not be as healthy as you look from the outside. But it, you know, honestly, it's a tough one because we do sometimes see people who are very athletic, you know, performing at high levels and you would never guess it, and you know they end up you know seeing me as a heart surgeon end up on my operating table or they end up having a heart attack and it, you know, it's only in retrospect because they didn't have any of that blood work done, they didn't have the coronary artery calcium scans done. That we, you know, we figure out. Yeah, you weren't as healthy as you looked.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 32:54

So someone who's trying to manage this prospectively and being proactive about it, I would say you really got to get the good blood work, you know, get your coronary artery calcium scans and, yeah, you know, just kind of be paying attention to how you, how you feel, how you look, but looking under the hood, I think at least once or twice a year with the blood work and with these scans, is very informative.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 33:27

You know one other thing about a coronary artery calcium scan I'll just mention is it's not only useful because of that coronary artery calcium number, but when they do the scan they usually, you know, will scan down at least to your upper abdomen and a good, you know, doctor or a good radiologist looking at that, can look at that and see, you know, an approximate, can get in a sense of how much visceral fat you might have. So when my patients have these scans, you know I always insist that I, you know, I see the images myself, because the radiologist will just read the coronary calcium part of it and they'll give you a score and that's helpful. But then I'll look at it and say, look, you know, we can see the fat around your liver here and you know that's another problem signed to be looking at.

Brian Keith: 34:22

Let's take the conversation in another direction. Which is the average person in the US, like Mark said, is overweight 70% at least. What is the path for someone who's listening to all this and they're looking at their own lab, their physique, their abilities and they're saying, yeah, I'm probably in that 70%? We know Dr Vadia's perspective on here's how to go get started moving. I love to hear from Mark for someone who says, yeah, it's not great, what should I do next?

Marc Lobliner: 34:52

It's probably similar to what you recommend Hydrate, you know. Make sure you drink enough liquids, make sure you drink enough water. Hydration is key Satiation to just body processes, to digestion. You need water, so that's out of the way. Go for a walk. An evening walk is a great start 30 minutes.

Marc Lobliner: 35:11

I'm assuming you're sedentary, right? I'm not assuming you're just a guy who goes to the gym every day and just had a little fun at Christmas. You know, go get up, go for a walk If you're obese. Now let me handle the obese first. Obese people should not be going in the gym, starting a hardcore training regimen. They literally need to just start moving. Swimming is a good idea, walking is a good idea, biking is a good idea, bicycling, movement, and also you don't want to just go from zero to 100. Like you see that on like the biggest loser in these shows. I think that's detrimental.

Marc Lobliner: 35:42

You also want to think about what you can do to sustain this. Don't think about it as an immediate fat loss. You need to make this lead into a lifestyle change. And another thing would be exactly what the doctor says eat more whole foods, like. The problem is, you know, these ultra processed foods ultra processed, they not only make you fat, they not only have very calorically dense properties to them, but they also make you stupid. They inflame your body. They add to so many. I mean there's so many bad things that come from these ultra processed foods from your brain to your body and total body inflammation is Satan. I've been saying that for years. An inflamed body is an unhealthy body, and I'm not talking about getting your muscles inflamed from post training. I'm not talking about taking ibuprofen every day. I'm talking about that total body inflammation. So again, you also look at what fat does. It's estrogenic. You know it's bad for your hormones in general. So when I look at someone who's obese, my number one thing is eat as much whole foods as possible, stay hydrated and exercise, meaning go on a walk or go swimming.

Marc Lobliner: 36:57

If you look at someone who's overweight, it's pretty simple. You know there's many ways to figure this out. You have to eat in a hypochloric state, okay, if you want to measure your calories, that's one way to do it. And exercise. You know you're on an exercise program, whether that's lifting weights, whether that's doing P90X, whether that's doing CrossFit, whether that's doing Jazzercise, whether that's joining a run club. You got to get that weight off, you just have to create a caloric deficit. That means eating less than your burn, basically. So once you get that, then you're on a good path. Then you just have to find a way to make it a habit and make it your lifestyle, and that's where people fall off. A lot of people will lose weight, but then they gain it back plus, and so that's why you need to make sure it's a lifestyle. You can't just look at it as a diet. You have to look at it as a lifestyle change.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 37:49

Yeah, very much so, and people are certainly familiar with my story and I have a background of obesity and was able to lose weight many times but never able to maintain it, like so many people out there have gone through. And it was really only through the low carbohydrate approach that I've now been able to maintain that weight loss for eight years and going. But it's a constant challenge and, like you said, if you're not going to be able to maintain it, if it's not a lifestyle for you, then the short-term gains rarely have a true impact on your long-term health. So a great point there, and you've got to find what works for you is another key part of this. Just because it works for Mark or just because it works for me doesn't mean it's what's going to work for you, and this is why there is no one right answer out there, and it's going to depend, like we talked about earlier, on your goals, on where you're starting from and where you're trying to get to.

Marc Lobliner: 39:06

And can I interject? I believe the low carb diet as someone who doesn't follow low carb diet is the most dummy-proof diet out there Because it's taken away probably 85% of your snack foods potato chips, candy bars, all those little candies, the runts, the nerds. It takes out all that stuff. French fries it takes away the bun. You have a couple patties. It's more satiating. There's less swings in blood sugar and insulin. You don't have to worry about it. It's a low carb diet and again, I'm not saying this to demean anybody, but it's pretty much dieting for dummies. It takes out a third of your optional macronutrients. There's protein, carbs and fat. You take out one of those. You have less chances to binge. Also, I would add that I've never really seen anyone become obesity, just right up rib-eyes Like you will get so tired of eating that after the second pound, like our guy before, two to three pounds of meat. I don't even know if I could do that. Two to three pounds of meat, that's all I could, but that's a lot of meat, bro.

Brian Keith: 40:10

I need to go with Dr Evadia to Fogatachow oh at Fogatachow.

Marc Lobliner: 40:15

I can, I can there, I can there. I'm saying that place is delicious.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 40:20

Yeah, exactly, and you're not going to eat again for a good 24 hours afterwards, so yeah, definitely All the sodium.

Marc Lobliner: 40:28

All the sodium, I gain like 30 pounds. It's like so salty, but it's worth it.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 40:35

Yeah and yeah, I think that's very much one of the key. One of the things that makes low carbohydrate diets so effective is it really is hard to gorge on protein and you can certainly overdo it with fat, but if you're eating whole, real food, then that fat's going to be coming with enough protein that it becomes self-moderating.

Brian Keith: 41:01

Absolutely Well, let's talk about protein and let's as we have the two of you together here, let's get into some details on the specific kinds of protein that are more good or less good for people that are more sedentary or more active and more trying to do some peak performance kind of thing.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 41:18

Yeah, I think this is a great question for us to dive into and maybe we frame it as if you are going to be using protein powders, protein bars what types of protein you should be looking for, what maybe you need to avoid and I'd love to hear Mark's thoughts on this and, specifically, I'd love to hear your thoughts on whey protein versus the beef proteins that are out there now. I'm seeing more and more of the kind of hydrolyzed beef protein in these protein powders and protein bars and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

Marc Lobliner: 42:04

So I'm a quantity over quality type guy, meaning quality is good but I like. If you get a gram of protein per pound of body weight, you're covering your amino acids. Whether that's a good like, just full disclosure. One of my companies sells the number one plant protein at a vitamin shop called Ambrosia planta. So, off, just getting that out there that I am, there is a conflict of interest. I also sell a great selling whey protein, mts nutrition machine whey at Tiger Fitness. So those are my conflicts of interest. So I will say, with that said, the fact that I make money selling protein, it doesn't really matter. And let me explain.

Marc Lobliner: 42:43

There used to be this big fascination with fast protein, slow protein. Based on the data I referenced before from Tipton at Al I think CRETER was a CRETER I'm trying to think of anyway, tipton was the main guy. So we saw these results around workouts. So our assumption was you needed whey protein around training for it to be the most effective, for it to be optimal. But then we found in further studies which is why science is never conclusive found in further studies that caseinate did just as well in some studies, not as well as others. Whey plus caseinate did just as well in some, not as well in others. And then egg, which used to be the benchmark of protein. So when we look at the protein sources, all I'm caring about is does it have a complete amino acid profile? Does it cover all the bases? And at that point, whether you're eating chicken, whether you're eating steak, whether you're drinking a whey protein shake, whether you're drinking a plant protein shake, does it cover those amino acid bases and are you getting adequate protein based on your body weight? So we can dissect things and I can tell you a biological value which we can argue if it matters or not. If you're going by that egg is 100, okay, because it was what? Everything? It was better than everything. It was the best protein. You couldn't get better than that. Then they were looking at like, oh, caseinate cheese, what's this other stuff, this whey stuff? Let's test that Came out at 107. That's how it became 107, because it was compared to the former 100. So whey protein became the benchmark of protein.

Marc Lobliner: 44:12

So, arguing, I could say that you should only eat whey protein, right, but that's stupid. Then you're missing out on micronutrients and steak and beef, which is, in my opinion, beef and organ meats are the most nutritious things you could put into your body. They have more nutrient dense than anything out there. So why am I gonna tell someone to just drink my protein? That's stupid. That's disingenuous. So are there best types of protein? Yes, does it really matter? Go with the one that your body agrees with most. Go with the one that you digest the most. Go with the one that you enjoy the most.

Marc Lobliner: 44:52

Some people are lactose intolerant. They're allergic to dairy. I'm gonna point them to planta my plant protein. Some people want the benefits of whey. They love the taste, they love the texture, they like the fact it's 107 BV. Go to that. Some people don't like powder at all. I'm gonna tell them to eat a steak. So that's just me. I don't. I'm not that guy. You know, I'm very, I'm very. I'm not the guy to make a stance on one or the other. I think you should vary your dietary sources.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 45:26

And are there so specifically, I know lots of people are somewhat critical of plant proteins because they may be an incomplete amino acid profile. If someone's looking at plant protein sources, what should they be careful about? What should they be looking out for to make sure they're getting this? And, of course, I agree with you, it's unlikely that someone's exclusive source of protein is going to be a protein powder or a protein bar. So it may be a little bit of an academic discussion, but someone who's trying to do it all plant-based they're vegan, vegetarian or vegan trying to do it all plant-based they're using some plant protein powder. What should they be looking out for to make sure that they're not missing some of the essential amino acids?

Marc Lobliner: 46:25

Well, I mean, it's the old school beans and rice, right Like that forms a complete protein. But we don't want to eat beans and rice because to get five grams of protein we need like 200 grams of carbs. So what we do is we go with pea protein and brown and basically rice. So brown rice, so pea protein, and rice gives you a complete amino acid profile. What we did in the protein I made is we also added a vegan BCAA which is derived from fermentation as the processed. So we put in a two to one to one BCAA leucine to isoleucine, to valine.

Marc Lobliner: 46:54

So if you look at the amino acid profile of planta and you look at the amino acid profile of whey, it's way more similar. Is that even good English? It's more similar to a animal protein because what the plant proteins, the brown rice and the pea lack are adequate amounts of the branched amino acids which we can argue all day about their validity. But we do know that leucine has certain anabolic triggers, or triggers within the body for MPS and muscle protein synthesis, I'm sorry. And then isoleucine and valine as a supporter. So when I look at proteins I'm looking at does it have enough leucine? Does it have enough isoleucine? Does it have enough valine? Then I'm looking at the entire amino acid profile.

Marc Lobliner: 47:39

So my goal as someone who designed a plant protein is how do I make this as similar to animal protein as possible? So I think, look at the overall profile. So as long as you get a complete protein, amino acid-wise in there, I think you're in a great spot. But I will state that you can be a very good vegan. You can do really well building muscle, burning fat, being healthy as a vegan. You just have to supplement. You have to supplement with protein, you have to supplement with B12. You have to supplement with some form of DHAEPA. I do not believe there's any way for a vegan to be optimal. I do believe you could be very good, but to be optimal, I do believe you need animal products in your body. That's my personal opinion.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 48:27

Yeah, good to hear you say that. I would certainly agree. I think, yes, you can do it, and I also work with and have, vegan patients. It's pretty challenging and you got to do a lot of planning. One other protein aspect I'd love to touch on one of the other sort of protein. I'm not gonna call it quite a myth, but misconceptions, maybe that gets out. There is this limit on muscle protein synthesis and you can only have 40 grams of protein at a sitting and the rest of it your body's not going to be able to utilize. So I think I've tried to debunk this a few times, but I'd love to hear your perspective on it.

Marc Lobliner: 49:16

So I mean the theory comes from MPS, muscle protein synthesis I believe Lane Norton and I forgot the other doctor, but they did the protein stat there at University of Illinois, I believe it was in like 2010. And essentially they were showing that to maximize muscle protein synthesis you need X amount of leucine. So to get X amount of leucine you need X amount of whey protein isolate, and there you go. But it was around before then. So my question to you not you, but to everybody out there so let's say it's 30 grams or 40 grams or whatever. So is that for everybody? So I'm a 220 pound male, 6% body fat, at five foot seven and a half inches tall. Okay, so you're telling me that my protein intake per meal is the exact same as my daughter, who's about 130 pounds at five foot five, who's a female. So we both have the exact same intake? No, what really matters is what you've eaten, what you're going to eat. Now, obviously, for optimization, from again, everything we're saying, doctor, is in interpretation. We're reading data and I've seen people read the same data set and the same conclusions and read through the study. I'm not just read the actual conclusion, read through the study and they have two different interpretations of the data and we saw that with back in the day with the arachidonic acid study at Baylor. We've seen all these nuances in how you interpret data. My interpretation is optimal would be eating every three to four hours and getting you know three to five or so grams of Lucy.

Marc Lobliner: 50:55

However, that's not a problem. A lot of people have different schedules. So what I'm getting at this around about way is a lot of people really overanalyze this. That's why I'm like quantity over everything. If you weigh 150 pounds, get 150 grams of protein, Unless you like to eat one really big meal, and I think your body will figure it out. Your body will figure out what to do with the food. Just make sure you hit your intended targets for the day and you'll be good For optimization, which I guarantee you, less than 5% of our viewers right now will come even close to, not to just being good, but for optimization.

Marc Lobliner: 51:30

If I'm competing, if I'm getting ready for, let's say, I'm doing a Toronto pro next year, okay, I'm gonna make sure my meals are on point. I'm eating at a certain level, because every percentage counts For most people who just wanna look good at their high school reunion and go to the beach and not look fat. You know what? Just get in your gram of protein. Prepare a body weight. Don't worry about if you get 40, 50, 60, or 10 grams per meal. Just make sure you hit that end goal. And you're 99% there. You're 99% there. Your body will take care of the rest.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 52:03

I think that says it well.

Brian Keith: 52:07

We have some comments coming in from YouTube and everywhere else we have friend of the show, Alan Roberts.

Marc Lobliner: 52:13

Yes, he's the guy I referenced earlier, alan's. So he actually the product I mentioned earlier, alchemy. He helped design that one. The Alan is doing a great service to America by he basically helps people get unfat themselves is, I think, what we say now, but I don't know how politically correct you guys are, but Alan is not.

Brian Keith: 52:33

Wonderful. Then we have some other folks here. We have Ryan, who apparently is not even human, and he's taking on stuff. Congratulations.

Marc Lobliner: 52:42

He's a lion. He's a lion, he's just like wow.

Brian Keith: 52:46

And then you have a question here from Matt, a specific question from Mark here.

Marc Lobliner: 52:51

Okay, why aren't there digestive enzymes in planta? Good question and I'll answer that. Number one is well, you could buy digestive enzymes and probiotics. We sell one. We actually sell one called flora, and another is the dosing Like if you have one or 20 scoops a day, whatever. Also, with plant protein, you're not dealing with a lot of the issues that you have where you need a lactase enzyme to help break down the lactose.

Marc Lobliner: 53:16

For a lot of people, especially us Ashkenazi, Jews, Asians and blacks, I believe, have the highest level of lactose intolerance. I don't know if I have those right, so a lot of people do need that. So I would recommend taking a probiotic. I always recommend people take probiotics. I don't know your stance on those, doctor, but I love probiotics, Huge fan of them for gut health and immune health.

Marc Lobliner: 53:36

But another reason is and this is something I found out the hard way digestive enzymes, unless they're coated in a crazy expensive way, actually will break down the protein powder and make it go rancid. Think about it it's an enzyme eating at your protein powder in the bottle, so it can definitely affect shelf life. A lot of people when they say you should put this in your product, you should put that in your product. There's a lot of things I wish I could do, but from a chemical standpoint these things just do not interact well together. They could decrease the shelf life, they can make it taste bad and again, I can make the greatest product in the world, but if it tastes like crap you're not gonna buy it. So there's a lot of nuances to creating products. Did that answer that sufficiently Not? Let me know.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 54:23

Yeah, I think that was a great answer and something I never really thought about that if you put the enzymes in the product, that they're gonna be eating away at the product while the product on the shelf.

Marc Lobliner: 54:35

So I have a story. I had a product. I owned a company called CIVATION, makers of the first intra-workout product, extend. That really took off and we came out with a product called Solution 5. It was an MRP. You would've loved it. It was high fiber, it was higher fat, low carb, just fiber. And we put digestive enzymes in it and in a month the thing just imploded. It tasted like I can't even describe how much money I lost on that. So I found out the hard way. So trust me, guys, I am speaking from a place of financial ruin and a place of love when I say that again. And there are enzymes that can go in there. They're cost prohibitive and you're already spending 50 bucks for 25 servings. I doubt you wanna spend 70 bucks for 25 servings.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 55:23

Yeah and ultimately, when you look at something like digestive enzymes, most people couldn't need them. If you do, there's an underlying issue and you wanna figure out what that is and address it, but there's really no reason that people the vast majority of people should need any sort of enzyme supplement to digest protein. Our bodies know how to do that.

Marc Lobliner: 55:51

It's kind of what we were here for, like when we learned how to cook meat. That's when our brains really started developing as humans. That was. The game changer for humanity is the caloric density and the fatty acid content of meat and the protein. So yet your body knows what to do with meat. It just does Lactose. We could argue that all day long. I like milk.

Brian Keith: 56:12

It's a few minutes left here, folks. Matt says thanks for that great answer. Mark, here's the last big question. Let's see if we can tackle this one in just a couple minutes. Here I regularly encounter people who eat way less protein than I think they should. Based on my association with Dr Vadia and hearing about a lot of these details all the time, mark, what's the hack to get someone who's eating like 50 grams a day 30 grams a day to change their behavior?

Marc Lobliner: 56:40

I'm gonna go straight up personal experience and bro, there are usually people who eat junk food, usually people who like to eat sweet stuff. My only recommendation I could think of is Greek yogurt. Greek yogurt is the hack. It's got like 20 grams of protein for every like three grams of carbs. I mean it is an insane hack.

Marc Lobliner: 57:01

I think that, just you know, people are naturally afraid of protein. I think women and children in the focus groups I've been a part of they associate high protein with nearly steroid like things they think of. Eat too much protein, you'll get an Adam's apple and grown in large female woohoo. You know what I mean. So as much as I can make jokes about that, I won't. So at the end of the day, I think that just introducing other high protein foods and telling them it can help them. It can help them lose weight. It can help them, you know, avoid sarcopenia or gain more muscle, look better, feel better and find things they like.

Marc Lobliner: 57:33

There's a lot of options now. Have you seen those? You have core power drinks with 40 grams a day and 40 grams of protein. At the gas station you got protein bars like mine that give you 15 to 20 grams, depending on you know which variety you go with. You got so many options of higher protein. And again, a little Greek yogurt cup is 20 grams of protein the little ones they have at the hotels when you stay there. You know that, doctor, because you stay at hotels. So I mean there's so many ways and a gram of protein per pound. I was looking at that for my 10 year old son. He's about 120 pounds during football, 110 during wrestling right now, and for him that's five yogurt cups. It's not that big of a deal, just put, and it also replaces the junk you would have eaten.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 58:18

Dr Vadier, yeah, you know, I think it really has been such a crime. The way that protein has been demonized and this, you know, this concept that you know, 0.4 grams per kilogram was, you know, enough. The recommended daily allowance, you know, is enough. Protein is just has really had such detrimental effects. Because if you're not eating enough protein, the natural inclination is to turn to, you know, junk food, essentially because you're going to be hungry all the time.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 58:58

So, you know, in terms of how to get your loved ones to do it, I think the best thing we can do is just model it and, you know, show the results of it. But it's clear that we all need to eat more protein and, like Mark said, we need to get away of this fear Again that somehow you know the possibility that you're going to eat so much protein that it's going to somehow damage your health is really nonsensical. I mean, the studies on protein overfeeding are pretty clear that you can really eat excessive amounts of protein without any negative impacts on your health. So it really should just be eat more protein, and I think that should be a central part of our messaging around health, absolutely couldn't agree more.

Brian Keith: 59:47

Okay, folks, we are on the hour mark of all your websites. Where do you want to direct people to?

Marc Lobliner: 59:53

Go to TigerFitnesscom, man. No matter what you get, no matter what you buy, I get paid there, and it also carries all the products from Ambrosia. So while you can go to AmbrosiaCollectivecom, you can buy other stuff, other brands. Either way, you know I get paid, so I'm happy. Hey man, nice, simple. I can't afford this cool like podcast equipment without that, you know.

Brian Keith: 1:00:14

Okay, Dr Evadia, who should go get on your calendar to talk with you at ifixheartscom.

Dr. Phillip Ovadia: 1:00:21

Anyone that doesn't want to end up on our operating table should go to ifixheartscom and come work with me there first.

Brian Keith: 1:00:31

Okay, guys, thanks for being here. We'll see y'all later. Appreciate it.