It's Stay Off My Operating Table with Dr. Philip Ovadia. We're glad to have you with us today. I particularly am glad because I got to spend the weekend in the hospital, and let me tell you, that's the first time… Phil, I don't think I've been in the hospital as a patient since I was maybe 18 months old. Lord, I'm telling you people, you don't want to be in the hospital as a patient. It sucks. And that's not a problem with the hospital, just the whole thing is just, it sucks. So I'm currently wearing a sling because I somehow managed to break my shoulder. I don't recommend breaking shoulders either. I don't think our guest has anything to do with all that. But I thought I'd get that out of the way because I occasionally have spasms of shooting pain. And Eddie, if I m- make the spasm of shooting pain sound, it's not because of what you've said, it's just because- … the pain pills are wearing off. I understand. And that… Oh, it hurts to laugh. So we're- Oh … we're happy to that Jack is here with us and certainly excited for this episode. This one's gonna be a little bit different. I Jack always comments that sometimes I throw some curve balls at him and come up with a guest that he can't research and is under the radar. And today's guest falls in that category. I was just lucky to meet Eddie at the Meat Stock Conference that we were at together- Mm-hmm … about a month ago. And anyone that's watching this can tell, but if you're listening Eddie's a young kid who's really, gotten into carnivore and is now, has now launched his own YouTube channel and podcast talking about it, and is just one of those people that I knew, I wanted to have a great conversation with on this podcast and introduce him to our audience and to the world. With that, I'm going to turn it over to Eddie and let him give us a little bit of why you got interested in, metabolic health and carnivore diets and see where the conversation leads us from there. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds good, Dr. Ovadia. I I'm very glad to be on to speak with you. As you mentioned we first met at Meatstock and it was great. I've been watching you for… i've known of you for quite a while now. But yeah, so my name is Edward Gokey. I'm 22 years old, and I'm the author of a book called Contraindicated, and at 18 years old, I almost died. That's how the story… I'm gonna, I'm gonna introduce it that way 'cause my story really starts at 16. My story starts at 16 years old, where I started developing very mysterious symptoms that hence hence the name there. They're very mysterious. We didn't know what was actually going on. We didn't know if I had a condition. We thought it was a little bit of a fluke day that I had. It started with me sitting in my chemistry classroom, third hour, and what ended up happening was I had a panic attack without having understood what a panic attack even was to begin with. I thought that was just a term that people threw around whenever they were anxious about something. But I had started getting a physical response, a physical feeling of butterflies in my stomach that started physiologically as opposed to being stimulated from something mentally occurring or having occurred. And so I didn't know what was going on. I had-- There was just this physical feeling that came over me, and it prompted me to leave the classroom, and I was left very bemused, very confused as to what was actually going on. So I contacted my parents to pick me up, and I thought… once again, I thought it was a fluke. I didn't know what would happen-- what had happened, but little did I know that my life was never gonna go back to normal after that day because what ended up happening was things just got worse. That started to be my norm. So tachycardia, so I'm-- we're talking about a heart rate of about 132 p- BPM constantly while standing. I could get it to slow down slightly if I sat down, but the only time that I could really get it back down to normal was whe- whenever I would lie down on the ground on my back. So that was happening. Blood pressure swings just from the start of me getting up out of bed, this is when all, everything started. Even going from a lying down position to a sitting up position we're talking heart rate would increase to about 110 BPM. Blood pressure would correspond to that a little bit. More so a tachycardia issue than a blood pressure issue to, to start. But the biggest symptom that I ever had was one of the most arcane symptoms that I think any… anybody that I even know currently had ever heard before, and this was a… Th- this involved me experiencing extremely debilitating pain whenever I would experience any emotion, whether it be positive or negative, or whether it be subtle or extreme. Very weird. If I w- if I was walking around and I would be talking to someone, so even just the light emo- like the very slight emotion that you feel whenever you're having a good conversation with someone, that would prompt me to, th- that would cause me to keel over in pain, particularly in my solar plexus region is where I where I felt that pain. So it was impossible for me to enjoy watching a television show, listening to music. I was missing out on school basically four out of five days a week. My life was just completely changed, and it seemed like overnight that's when this happened. And I was believed by my family and my friends, but they believed that it was a temporary thing. Once it started happening for months, they very quickly, not every one of them to be fair, but some of them started to believe that I wasn't really telling the truth and I was just wanting attention. And they thought that if it was a genuine condition, that it was anxiety and depression. Now, to be fair to general care practitioners here in the space, we tend to they tend to get a bad rap, and there's good reasons for that. But there's also-- l-let's be fair, let's be honest here. When I told my GP what I was going through, and I said that it felt extremely painful to experience emotion and my heart rate goes up and my blood pressure goes up whenever I talk to people that kinda sounds like anxiety. As much as that is a scapegoat sort of term and condition to be fair to, to my general care practitioner it does sound a little bit like it is anxiety. But that didn't help my case because it obviously wasn't anxiety. I had been told that I was having yeah I was having acid reflux because I was saying that I was gonna have a heart attack because of what was going on, chest tightness, again, tachycardia, blood pressure swings. So they put me on famotidine and omeprazole, so a PPI and an H2 blocker. They also put me on-- we also actually got me on testosterone therapy TRT at 16. And the reason for that was actually out of desperation, because we had thought since my dad was diagnosed with a low testosterone, he had a low testosterone diagnosis, and no one was giving us answers. We were like is this hormonal? Is this what…" And ironically, the testosterone therapy probably helped with my symptoms for a day, probably 'cause I, honestly, in, in today's world, as a 16-year-old male at the time eating a plant-based diet without realizing it, I wasn't really caring about my diet. I was just eat- most of the standard diet is plant-based. I probably was low on testosterone, but it didn't fix the, it didn't fix the issue even remotely. And so given the work ethic that I was inculcated with by my dad and people that I surrounded myself with I felt guilty staying home. Even though I had a reason to stay home, I couldn't even walk around comfortably. But especially then the impetu-- the further impetus to get back into the world was provided to me with the doubt that was perceived by my presentation, by people that I was surrounded by. So that gave me the impetus to actually get back out into the world despite my persistent pain. And so I went back to school and eventually got a job during the lockdowns, during the pandemic ironically. And I was basically running myself into the dirt without realizing still what was going on. So there might be someone listening right now and saying,"Okay, so what's happening?" I w- I'm in the same boat as you because I had no idea. This lasted for years until I was 18 years old and it was January of 2022. I went downstairs, and I was looking around. I was actually going to the bathroom. I was walking to the bathroom, and I turned my head, and I lost vision for about half a second. My vision just went completely black, and that was terrifying for obvious reasons. I'm 18-- I'm thinking to myself,"I'm 18 years old, and I know that I'm getting progressively worse, but I still don't know what's happening to me. And if I'm losing my vision at this point," we're talking even for half a second, that's a half a second too long, "then I really need to ramp up this investigation further," like my self-investigation which had begun slightly before that. So before we really get into a diagnosis, I still… of course, I-- since I didn't know what was happening, and I wasn't being provided with any answers that made any sense by any practitioner whatsoever I started saying to myself I have to take matters in my own hands, into my own hands in the only way that I know how." So I was always taught growing up that nutrition was really important, but of course, what proper nutrition looked like in my mind wasn't correct. It was based on the wrong framing. And so as much as I thought that I was helping myself by drinking, I don't know, a bunch of fruit smoothies every day with almond milk in them, yeah, I wasn't. I wasn't at all. So I was doing that at 16. I was actually being very health-conscious, right? But I was doing it in all the wrong ways. I started eating these bowls for dinner. I would have these bowls full of an OR pasta side first as the base. That was the base. I just thought that's the vehicle. But I would have a, th- these pasta side, but it was filled with broccoli, kidney beans, black beans, peas, all the bell peppers that you can think of, mushrooms, all of these seasonings, 'cause you're tau- oh, seasonings are really great for the immune system. I was putting basically every single one in there that I could. It didn't even really taste great, but I was like the more seasonings, the better." Canned tomatoes. There's more. I g- I'm sure… Oh, I-- there was, there were some times where I would put some spinach and kale in the bowls if it was a good day, right? So yeah, not great. But I was having those basically every single night thinking that I was doing myself a favor with a side of a baked sweet potato with maple syrup on it and a drink not with water, but blended up watermelon. More the better was my ide- my idea of what was healthy because more nutrition, right? That didn't help my decline. I was still going downhill, and I was still… it was just It was very, I was very despondent most days. And then what happened was I went downstairs and it was one night where I went downstairs and I went into the pantry and I got some grain-based snacks, and I just started I decided to eat a bunch of them.'Cause I, again, as much as I was health-conscious, I also didn't really g- there were some times where I didn't care that much because I was hopeless, right? N- I'm eating this way and it's still not working, so I might as well eat this junk. And I was always naturally skinny. I'm, I was 5'10", 5'11" at the time. I'm still, I'm 5'11" now. And I was about 140 pounds. That's with eating anything. And so I just decided, I was bored one night and I went downstairs and ate whatever. But I said to myself, "I'm gonna pay attention to what happens to my body whenever I eat this." And lo and behold, a symptom that I'd developed along the way out of the 50 that I'd developed, I'm just I can't I only have so much time to talk about the symptoms I was dealing with, but one of them was ex- immense amounts of muscle twitching and muscle spasming that would happen. It's, it f- sometimes it wasn't, you couldn't detect it visually, but it was happening. I could feel it myself experientially. So I I was paying attention, and after I ate all that food, all this spasming w- was happening in my hands and down my legs, and I went, "Okay, that's a signal. That's a stronger signal than I've ever received," okay? So I g- I, I was, like, trying to find the common denominator. I was like, "Grains. That's the common denominator." I run upstairs to the loft and I start looking up, I said, "Are grains bad for you?" I'm thinking what am I even looking up right now? This is s- this is stupid. This is silly." And the first article that comes up is an article by CrossFit Impulse of all sites. I don't even know if they're around. It's just a c- CrossFit site. But it said, "Why Grains Are Killing You." That was the title of the article. And I said What? Okay let me click on this. And that's when I learned about lectins and phytates, so plant, yeah, defense chemicals, yeah, anti-nutrients/toxins. There's not really too much of a distinction between the two in my opinion, but I I said to myself, "I found the answer." If anyone if you're, you Dr. Ovadia, Jack or anyone listening right now, you probably are hear… You might be hearing this thinking, "Yeah, I know exactly how that is." When you find one slight signal about what's going on, you think, "That's it. That's it, man. That's, I got it." But of course, that was just the beginning. I said, "I'm gonna cut out all grains in my diet." And I actually did have I did have some some results with that. I was having heat flashes regularly. Those went away. That was the main thing that, that went away. And I'm so-- I'm saying,"Okay, that's great." But it still didn't, it didn't really resolve more than that. So I said, "Oh, man, I g- I gotta do more than that. What's going on?" And then I learned about the the Whole30 diet, which is almost, so it's a more strict version of just grain-free, right? You're removing grains, but you're also lose removing legumes, and you're also removing dairy. So that helped as well. Removing dairy helped oddly enough. And then I said, "I'm still debilitated. I still…" I'm going to work, so I'm not debilitated by strict definition, but yeah, I'm barely holding on. And so then I said Eddie, duh, y- grains and these other foods, they're not the only foods with lectins and phytates in them, so I have to look up what else is, what, what else is teeming with them." And that's when I discovered Dr. Steven Gundry. Oh. You are… yeah. Okay. So you know who he is. As much as… So he gets a bad rap, again, it's very similar to what I was saying about GPs, for good reason, but also for bad reason, because he actually, I think he's underestimated in, in some of the value he does provide in his messaging because I learned about lectins, I learned about plant toxins, and in fact, the most important thing that I can attribute to him again, a lot of irony here, is the shifting in the framing of how we actually look at food and how we look at diet. He, I read his book, The Plant Paradox, very soon after this, and it completely shifts your framing to the proper framing, which is not human nutrition science and health science, but evolutionary biology. And I went, "Oh, this is actually, this is completely different." I was blown away with what I was reading. And so I said, I was hooked on this. I went no. This is right. This is d- this cannot be wrong." So I went lectin-free. The problem is that if anyone knows about Dr…. Oh, and Jack you're responding qui- quite well to this. Dr. Gundry's diet is still primarily plant-based. It's still primarily plant-based. He emphasizes very low animal protein consumption because he says that animal protein ages you because of IGF-1 and mTOR mechanisms. He sa- It's also based on a lot of epidemiology, and I'm sure that we can get into that conversation later. But it's primarily plant-based, and it's based around a lot of fiber, so resistant starch, so sweet potato and garlic and onion and leeks and cruciferous vegetables, all that n- not so good stuff. And so I was eating lots of this. I was eating lots of it. The meat that I was eating,'cause I was eating some of that, it was grass-fed and grass-finished. I wasn't having lots of simple sugars like fruit and anything like that 'cause he says it's not something you should have. But I had the mo- I had the biggest improvement in my health that I now retrospectively I believe was metabolically related, of course, but it wasn't, it still wasn't anywhere near what I needed to have happen. And so then we go back to January, where my health just declined and I went on leave for work for what I thought was gonna be about two weeks, and it, I never went back to work. And so still trying to figure out what's going on, I'm scrolling on Instagram, and I follow basically every health page that you can think of at this point. I come across a post by Anthony of Medical Medium. So this is another guy online that is he's b- he's f- almost fruit-based at this point. Like he's actually quite a stark contrast in many ways from Dr. Gundry. But I was still looking. I was just following everybody. And it was a post that he made about vagus nerve inflammation, all these symptoms that can result from vagus nerve inflammation. And I was like, "What are vagus nerves? I don't even know what we're looking at." W- Th- but I looked at this, the list of symptoms and I said, "Sounds a lot like what I'm going through, so let me look at what actually causes vagus nerve inflammation." And I come across a site called caremedical.com, caremedicalflorida.com, all about vagopathy, so pathology of the vagus nerve. It's actually degeneration, not just, not merely inflammation, but actual subsequent degeneration of vagus nerves and what can cause that, specifically with respect to structural conditions like, in this case, CCI, craniocervical instability And I found a seminar from a physiatrist that runs a caring medical clinic. This clinic, it's a clinic in Florida, Fort Myers, Florida. And I watched this whole seminar, it's about two hours long, about how this condition can cause vagus nerve degeneration. And I was so sold on this being what I had, and the context being February, March of 2022, these were the worst months of my life. I was staring at the ceiling, lying on my back, thinking to myself… 24/7, 'cause I c- at this point, I couldn't even walk to the bathroom, couldn't even stand to make my own food. I'm crawling to the bathroom. I'm thinking I'm just anticipating my death at this point. Like, when's the la- I don't e- I'm waiting for the light to go out in my eyes." And so I was so desperate that I actually booked an appointment to get a diagnosis living in Illinois, 14 hour, a 14-hour drive away, without having told my parents And I told my dad a few days later, and he said,"Yeah, you know what? Yeah I'm desperate too." He had gone into debt for me, like at this point. He's trying to figure out what's wrong with me as well. So we drove down there April 6th. April 8th was my appointment, and they-- Long story short, I know, ironic because of how much I've said already, but Dr. Ross Houser he's the head of the clinic, and he evaluated me after all these weird diagnostic tests, cone beam CT scans, these weird tests I'd never even seen before. I was told in that room with my dad and my grandma there"If you had come any later, you were on your way for something catastrophic." Basically implying the obvious, but also, "Yeah, you're right, you have a really bad problem with your neck." Cranio-cervical instability is a condition that is characterized by extremely weak ligaments in the neck. So ligaments are what hold bone to bone, and if you have weak ones they don't really do that job very effectively, so they cause the bones to move around too much. Even by a few millimeters can be too much, or one millimeter, and that can impinge on surrounding nerves and surrounding arteries and cause a slew of different issues, especially when you're talking about the nerves and arteries of your neck. So that's that was very validating to hear because hadn't had answers in years, and now I finally had something to look for. That clinic employs a certain treatment called PRP or prolotherapy. Those are two sl- They're different, but they're also the same in many respects. And I actually embarked upon that treatment journey almost immediately. It was about two weeks after I received the diagnosis, and I stayed in Florida. Fortunately, my grandmother, who I just referenced, is my maternal grandmother. She lives an hour and a half away from the clinic. I don't know what we would have done if she hadn't. But I started living with her at that point, and I started getting treatment done where you get PRP prolotherapy. You, you inject the ligaments. You're going to he- You're gonna stimulate a healing response, an inflammatory response on the ligaments that otherwise would not have occurred and wasn't occurring because it's not like muscle. Ligaments aren't like muscle with really good blood flow and everything like that. You do need a little jumpstart a little bit. The jumpstart comes from the needle more than anything, actually. The solution is sort of secondary and subordinate. But the PRP itself and the prolotherapy still I believe helped a lot. I had instant benefit from that treatment, instantly As the months progressed, we realized that I didn't have CCI merely. I actually had hypermobile EDS. I was affected in my whole body. So Hypermobile ligaments? Hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome, so yeah, a connective tissue disorder. And my, and in my case, since it's characterized by hypermobility, it's a certain type of it it's characterized by extremely weak ligaments systemically, so all across the body which explained a lot of things. It explained why I was having severe pain when experiencing any emotion, because what was happening was anytime you feel an emotion, a very strong one would be, like, your stomach dropping. That's my camera. My stomach, if you get very startled or something like that, you have that, your heart drops, right? That's an actual physical sensation. That's your diaphragm contracting. That involves your diaphragm contracting. What was happening was my ribs were so unstable that they weren't staying in place whenever that would happen. So my ribs were moving every time that I was feeling even subtle emotions, and it was impinging on all my surrounding nerves in my solar plexus, which is where you feel a lot of emotion in the first place. It's that whole system here. And so it was forcing me to keel over in, in, in pain every time that I would experience an emotion. We finally discovered that because anytime I would get PRP done on my ribs it was, it w- it was gone. It, it was gone. Now, of course, the treatment, you get swelling as a result of that, which functions as a splint for increased stability, and then that comes down, but your baseline is still greater than it was before. But as it went down, it st- I realized it still wasn't enough treatment. I was like, "I'm still feeling this pain, w- this emotional pain." And so I w- I spent months and months there. And while I was doing that, I was still studying diet, right? I was still looking into diet and everything like that. Can I still optimize my diet? Still the only thing that I can, that I have control over at home. I'm still, I've learned enough already I need to still be focusing on diet,'cause again, that's the only thing I can focus on. That led me to learning more from Da- people like Dave Asprey who at the time was very similar to Dr. Gundry, but he, he he still was… the, probably the only benefit that I that I saw from listening to Dave Asprey was increase animal protein. Oh, lectin free is great. Have all these plants and these fi- these fibrous foods. But, Still, y- you should al-- you should, at the same time, you should increase grass-fed, grass-finished beef consumption, pastured eggs and all that. And so that's actually what I did. I said, "You know what? Even if Dr. Gundry's right about this and Dave is wrong I'm an outlier here. I'm going through structural regeneration right now. I'm sure that extra protein wouldn't hurt." So I started increasing my consumption of animal products at that point. Then I discovered Paul Saladino. First, I followed him to laugh at what he was saying, I'll just be very honest because I was like, "No way. This is like the diet that's gonna shotgun you to the grave, man. This is crazy." I was like, I was following him for entertainment purposes because at the time I'm thinking this much animal protein's not great and this much fruit's not great. Fruit's sugar, right? Again, another thing Dr. Gundry gets right. But then I started listening more to him, and it was sort of like the unconscious programming a little bit. I- I was like, "You know what? That actually makes more sense. That actually makes more sense." So I adopted his diet eventually with a little bit of uncertainty and hesitancy he-hesitance at about… it was in June of 2022 at this point. But it only lasted a month because that was the only time that I had discovered that I had extremely bad symptomology. I-- Blood pressure swings, increased heart rate, face getting red, and sweating after I would eat food. It's the only time I ever had that was whenever I was eating his diet, and it happened for a month. And but the reason I didn't stop was because I said, "I don't know any better answer right now. This makes more sense than before, and so that's my best inference right now. I don't know what else to do." Until August 14th of 2022, I know, I got all the dates in my head, I discovered a video from someone by the name of Professor Bart Kay, Nutrition Science Watchdog, in my YouTube feed. And I went what's this?" This is a reaction to Paul's video, one of Paul's video that I'd reacti- react watched the previous day. And I'm watching this video from him, and he's cr- he's critiquing Paul. I'm like, "Oh, I hate this guy. This guy's He's getting really under my skin right now." But I started re- I didn't even know who he was. I was like, "Is this guy a carnivore? Is this guy a vegan? I don't even know. I have no idea." And then he finally says the thing that was worrying me the whole time. It was bugging me this whole time eating Paul's diet. He says, "Paul, you're telling people to eat hundreds of grams of sugar a day when the requirement is zero and the indicated level is zero." And I went Oh, okay. So it actually i- okay, so this is, th- this was the one problem that I had eating Paul's diet. It was the one doubt I had. Every time that I was eating this much fruit, I'm going, every bite that I was taking, I'm going this isn't right. It can't be true that this is different from table sugar or honey in the meaningful ways that he's saying." And I realized that gave me the courage to actually cut those carbs out.'Cause I still had that extant fear of the propaganda"You need those carbs in your diet, man. You need them." And so I cut them out. Actually, two weeks later, I cut them out, and I was having a sweet potato left over and some walnuts, and then I cut those out later on, too, and I went full carnivore. But the thing that Bart did more than just give me the courage to go carnivore was he actually imbued this desire to… and imbued this recognition of the importance of hard science, not just this human nutrition science nonsense, actual hard science. Like looking at science, physics- Oh biochemistry- Oh, I love this… all of this other stuff. And I'm realizing I always was the erudite person in school. I loved math. I was very good at math. I doubled up on math class and got into a math class a grade above me and finished second in the class. I was, like really good at that stuff. I loved that stuff. As long as it was important to me, I did well. So it's not like it was really reflected in my grades. Eventually during high school though, those started to tank, but it wasn't'cause I wasn't good at it. It was 'cause I didn't really have a reason to look into it or pay attention. Now I did. And so what I started doing Was I started writing research papers at this point. I'm ta- I'm talking research papers on fiber, vitamin C. They had citations, like superscript ti- citations in these Google Docs. Pages and pages, and I started putting them in g- in Google, like in a Google Drive folder. From the time I woke up to the time I went to bed, I was binging material from people like Paul Mason, Bart as well and his videos things that I could extract myself Anthony Chafee. Dr. Ovadia, you were one of the people that came up in that whole series of peo- dozens of people that I was hearing from. Ken Berry. And I was doing, I was outsourcing the information as well, just looking into all this stuff, and I was sending to my friends and family. I was saying, "Hey, you need to read this. This is like revolutionary stuff." And of course, since they didn't have a reason to read it, they were like, "This is what you're doing in your free time? Okay, yeah, I'll take a look at it." But no, they don't. They're not gonna do that. And so I was like, "Okay you can't say that I didn't tell you." So I just keep doing this, and I'm months, and we're talking months and months, six months go by, and I'm just voraciously, I'm just absorbing all of this information, all of this material, writing it all out, teaching it out loud as if I'm talking to someone else. Like I was, without realizing it, I was making sure that I understood it like the back of my hand, like I am applying this. And so I'm watching Bart every day. My, my grandma, who we now just live in the same house, we don't really talk to each o- I've been there for so long, we just live in our separate rooms. She hears one of his videos going, and she goes, "Hey, w- what are you watching?" And I went, "Grandma, you're not gonna like it. Don't worry about it. It's not something that you would enjoy." And she said no. I'm gonna watch TV. I hear you put that on the, you put him on the TV." I went, "Oh, God. Oh, no. Okay." And so I put him on the TV. He's a very abrasive character, right? Very callous and yeah. We, and some people might know already. But she loved it. She thought it was hilarious. She thought it was like, it was very-- she was enlightened by what was being said as well, and I went, "Oh, this is a relief," 'cause I thought that I, like I'm trying to keep this to myself. So eventually, I'm just watching it on the TV. I'm just watching him on the TV every day. I'm like, "Oh, yeah, Grandma, this one's a good one. Watch this one." And one day, weeks and weeks later, she goes, Eddie, you could do what he does." And I said, "No, that's not true. Come on, really? That's not true. That's not true." She goes,"No, really, you could. I'm telling you right now." I said, "He's a PhD. He's got a PH… he's a resea- a former research scientist, decades of experience in, in the academic region." I'm like,"I'm not, that's not me." So I called my dad that night and I said, "Get a load of what my grandma said," basically. Like he's the voice of reason, right? And he said, "No, Eddie, you know what? I think she's right. I've been thinking that for a while. You know what I'll do is I will invest $2,000 into equipment for you to start up a channel on YouTube if you do that." And I said Oh boy okay, I guess if you really wanna do it, if you think that it's a good idea, then sure. And he said, "No, I think it's a great idea." And so he said,"Whenever you come back home, I'll have this stuff for you. You let me know what you need and everything." In the meantime, I'm talking to my now m- my now fiance. Funny how things work like that. She's my former coworker. I'm talking to her on the phone about all this material I'm gonna start talking about on my channel, and I said, "Man, I can write a book with all of this." And I laughed, and then I went, "Oh no, I actually could. I actually could." And so that night I started-- I wrote the prologue to my book here, Contraindicated, which started, yeah, it was released about a year later or so. I wrote the prologue and I wrote the rest of the book in over in about two weeks because half of it was already written. I was just organizing it all and piecing it together. And on January 20th 2024, I started up my channel. It's just my name, Edward A. Gokey online. The style is very similar to Bart's style for obvious reasons. It's not because I'm copying him, but it's because obviously that was my main influence, hard science and also critiquing, because I would critique my own positions in many cases. Let me just bring that to a different stage. And so I started doing exactly that, and ever since then, we've been-- I've been growing in viewership I'm growing in influence. So I have obviously I've gotten this book of mine written. And then I have, I've now joined up with… I've t- I'm, I've, we've, we-- I've joined up with a coach from Canada for certifying people in a sort of coaching program internationally. That gets you internationally and nationally accredited as a certified nutrition and fitness coach and also many other certifications that we have as well. Dr. Ovadia, you know that I spoke at Meat Stock. I got a-- I spoke in front of quite a few people talking about the flaws in human nutrition science. And I guess really the final thing to cover is the fact that First of all, carnivore has been the one diet that has been able to put my symptoms into… Ma-maintain my symptoms as well as any other diet. If I deviate even slightly, I'll know. Even with some poor quality dairy I'll know, actually. That's been a huge help. I've discovered another treatment method as well. I've it it's te- deep tissue tendon dry needling, so people think of muscle dry needling, but I… This is deep tissue fenestration that I've been… It's been, really been life-changing and arguably life-saving in many ways, that has also been helping me get back to a full remission actually for hypermobile EDS, which is considered to be not even possible by many people still. Even w- people within the carnivore space say hypermobile EDS is a little bit of a different story." Maybe for some people, but I don't think so. I'm gonna make, I'm gonna make people know that's not true. I'm gonna, I'm gonna show people it's not true. And yeah, I guess, I guess the actual final thing to say is that I wasn't just, I wasn't just studying things from YouTube University and we're talking like… I was taking full on college-level biochemistry courses and everything, and just learning from bottom to top the fundamentals, statistics and research method methods biochemistry, cellular biology. All of that's the stuff that I talk about in my public material and in my book. There's a reason for that. And here we are. Now we're just growing the movement, and now my job is to spread the movement of carnivore through some more unorthodox means online, sure. And most importantly maybe not most importantly, but it's hard to rank the importance level of all these things 'cause they're both, they're all so important. But give a, g-give this promulgate this ideology, which it's not an ideology it's a way of living that is proper and in accordance with what we are evolved to withstand and evolved, and how we are evolved to live, to a younger audience. Because people of my generation there's no reason to sugarcoat this. They're dumb. They're ignorant. They're careless. They don't care about anything. They do not care about anything. It's reflected in the way they speak. It's reflected in what content they absorb. It's reflected in the behaviors that they do, or more importantly, don't do. And fortunately, I was actually subject to such a bad condition, such a painful and debilitating condition. Fortunately, because I think that I would've gone down the same route if I hadn't, which d- which is a dismal reality. But I'm trying to save people before they get to that point. And I can tell you right now, I've received dozens of emails since I've started up my channel that prove to me that I am having that effect. Which is great to see. But that's that's what I continue to do today. The most important question in my mind here, I apologize for my voice. This is not my normal voice. You're okay. I don't see anything wrong with it. Boy, I do. The most important question obviously, is your health. Mm-hmm … it sounds like by and large you are f- a functional human being again. Yep. Yep. I am a, I am completely functional. There are some limitations of course that still exist, so I would say that I'm probably about 50% healed. And that just goes to show how bad I was before. Before I was having my local chiropractor actually pull my stomach out from underneath my chest cavity because my ribs were so unstable that my stomach wasn't staying in place. That's how bad my instability was. It was really bad. And so it went from that to now I'm able to go on walks regularly, and I actually enjoy going on those. I'm able to engage in resistance training now. That took a minute. I actually recently took that back up because we realized that, my neck is still a big problem so curvature and all that stuff. And so what's happening is if I do bicep curls or something, a lot of times your neck can go forward. Mm-hmm. That's not great for me. It can cause a, it causes a lot of nerve pain and stuff like that. Now I just wear a neck brace during the workouts, and I'm fi- like, now it's completely fine. Still, even that would have been, that was just … it was a dream at that point. It was a distant, intangible future reality, a dream. And now it's, now it is a reality. Now it's a reality. And so again, that's with the s- that's with the help of carnivore. That's with the help of PRP and prolotherapy, but eventually those started having diminishing returns. Some people it fully hit, fixes them, but for me, it's like we needed to target the other issue, which is very underlooked which is the tendon issue. That's also part of structural health. Your tendons can be overburdened, and they can start to become weak, and that can cause the muscles to become extremely tight but also weak at the same time, so their output is very minimal. And that can also paradoxically- also contribute to poor ligament stability, but so instab- i-instability because it can pull and contort your joints in different positions. So it's like this catch-22 situation. You can fix the ligament, but if you don't fix the tendon at the same time, you can also get that same problem to happen again. And if you fix the tendon issue, if the ligament problem is the actual problem, you can also get the tendon issue again. So you have to consider both of them at the same time. And I'm actually working with my prac- my chiropractor who employs this te- deep tissue tendon dry needling. I have plans to work with him on spreading this message even, farther and even wider. You gotta be careful. Y- you gotta be very intentional with how you promote a message because if you promote five different things at once, no one's gonna listen to any of them. So right now I'm focusing on nutrition and metabolism, but we have plans in the future to really ramp up that awareness because that treatment, it's instantly effective. It's, I think it's saving people's lives every single day. Dr. Brian Hutchison is his name, and he has a practice in Fort Myers as well, five minutes away from Caring Medical'cause he used to work there. And, I've got a, I've got a client in Fort Myers. Nice. Yeah, you gotta turn him on to him, so yeah. The so the Ehlers-Danlos, right? This is a very interesting condition. It's thought to be genetic. Like you said, it has to do with the, structural makeup of the ligaments. And you're not the only person-… with that condition that I know of that has- Oh, yeah. No … gotten huge improvements from going on a carnivore diet. Mm-hmm. So you know, you mentioned you want to be about the hard science. Like, why would diet fix this, what's thought to be a genetic condition that's affecting the ligaments and their structure? How, how are we fixing that with a carnivore diet? Yeah, it's an interesting question, and the way to answer it is to first define what it means for someone to have fixed it because sometimes what happens is what they're doing i- with the carnivore diet is they're eliminating a lot of the associated inflammation or the subsequent inflammation, and so their pain goes down. Sometimes they can still have the instability occurring, but there's not a lot of localized pain in those areas. So I've seen that a lot. I've seen that a lot in myself, for example. There would be an area that was really… my wrists are an example. I can twist them like this, and I can still get popping. But it used to be much more painful in the area neurologically and also I would believe muscularly. But now there's no pain, but it's still, there's still the same level of instability. So it also de- it depends on if people are actually fixing it or if they're just fixing the associated pain, which both I think are improvements that shouldn't be overlooked. Much of the debilitation actually comes from the pain more than the actual condition itself. I know that experientially as well. So that's one thing, and then let's tackle that first one. So why would it fix people? Why would it eliminate a lot of their pain? Well- with inflammation, we have to define what inflammation is. Inflammation is merely, a lot of people overcomplicate inflammation nowadays. I don't know why. It's very simple, really. It can just manifest in a million different ways. That's what makes it look a lot more complicated. Inflammation is, at its core, a pre-programmed response that occurs in the body when it has experienced damage to tissues or a potential invading pathogen. That is all it is. So when you have damage to tissue, in the case that can happen with hypermobile EDS the pathogen example is not very relevant. The impingement of nerves, the impingement of arteries, et cetera There is going to be an inflammatory cascade on that area to attempt to heal the p- heal the area. But as a result of that, you have afferent and efferent neuron cha- neuronal changes. You are le- you are more susceptible to pain as a result of that. It's a protective mechanism by the body to say, "Hey, this area is in pain, so let's go ahead and stop a lot of movement, the normal level of movement." So you have like corticosteroids that people are administered, that are administered to people that have joint problems as well. That eliminates the pain but it worsens the problem because now they have to get them regularly because you've shut down the inflammation that was telling them to stop moving the area so much that's injured. Now you've injured it even more. So you can eliminate a lot of the excess inflammation that happens whenever you remove more compounds in the diet that directly damage tissues. Lectins are an example of this but you've also got oxalates. I'm r- I'm gonna, I'm, very soon I'm gonna be interviewing Sally K. Norton on the channel, and I'm gonna be talking to her about this for that reason, because oxalates are, for me, coming fr- coming from my history of learning all this stuff, I learned about lectins first, and so in my head it's like subconscious lectins are like the one, that, that's the worst thing. But increasingly it's becoming very apparent to not just myself, but many people, that oxalates seem to be even more damaging. They're more ubiquitous. Almost every single plant has oxalates in it, and oxalic acid and oxalate salts in them. And so that's that's something that needs to be addressed. We- you've got plenty of different compounds, glycoalkaloids, glucosinolates, iso- that lead to isothiocyanate production, saponins, goitrogen. You got all of these different things, salicylates. They all have different ways of interacting with the body that are suboptimal, that are counterproductive to its function, that damage it and also they can launch inflammation, not because, not even strictly because they can induce damage, but also because they can be perceived by the body as an intential a, as a potential invading pathogen,'cause they're foreign objects. And so you get, and then you get twofold, you get a twofold problem on your hands. And so that's where it comes in with the pain. But when it comes in w- why carnivore can help with the actual structural problem itself we have to remember that this is a collagen disorder. So as much as it is a genetic problem, or it's considered to be one and I think there's a genetic component of course, but th- that's like saying that there's a genetic component to there, there's a genetic component to every manifestation of any disease, right? So it's like you can say, this is what, this is the kick I get out of people saying that's genetic." They, the way that they say it, it implicit- it is implying that there's no control that you have over it. But if n- if anyone knows anything about genes, hey I've looked a lot of cellular biology and biochemistry. Genes, you have genotype and you also have phenotype. Genotype are the genes you have to work with in your body, right? But phenotype is how those genes are expressed. You do have influence over your genes Okay? It's why I can look tan one summer and I won't look tan the next summer. It's because I have influence over the way that my genes express themselves with, in this case, melanin content. But we have this with everything. There are a bi- about a million different phe- phenotypes for every genotype. And so yes, it's genetic, but you have influence over that. And so yeah, I might be genetically predisposed to developing EDS given poor inputs as compared to someone else, but it always, it still comes down to poor inputs 99.99% of the time. And so I think that if people are on a predominantly plant-based diet nowadays, again, even if they're not consciously on one, then what's gon- what's gonna happen to them if they're not getting bioavailable collagen? Put aside bioavailable collagen directly. Just talk about amino acids generally. How many-- Are you getting complete amino acids from your food? Are you getting… Even if you are you getting a sufficient absolute amount of them? Sorry, if you're eating predominantly plants, you're not. You're not. That's just a fact. We know that based on presentation alone, frankly, but also on a mechanistic basis, talking about hard sciences. Again, you gotta pair both of them together, but it's very clear that you're getting insufficient amount of amino acids and collagen to fortify your-- to provide your body with the constituents required to build up healthy and robust collagen. We also have broader, even broader evidence of that anthropologically because what happened during the agricultural revolution to our structural health? Anthony Schaefers was the first person I actually heard that from years and years ago, but that's just a very clear reality whenever you look at it yourself, too. It's a very it's very obvious. We were declining rapidly. We still actually are. And I'm not saying that food is the only reason for that. There's other reasons when it come-- especially when it comes to brain size. We're not hunting as much. There's less of a pressure on it to be bigger. Sure, fine. There are ways to steel man opposing arguments, but you cannot reasonably, in my mind, say that diet didn't have a role to play. So of course, that can also be, I think that's the most plausible mechanism as to how carnivore can also help with with EDS on a more fundamental level. You're providing your body finally with bioavailable collagen, complete amino acid profiles, and you're removing damaging compounds that were not designed to genotypically withstand across our genome, across our species. That's just a recipe for flourishing in many people, or at the very least, like I said, in my case a very good maintenance of your symptomology What's the best way to translate this, right? To just your peers, right?'Cause- Yeah … even the other 22-year-old, right, the other young people that are listening to this are saying, "Okay he had some weird condition that, and it got better when he changed to some weird diet. Great. What does that have to do with me," right? I'm a healthy- Mm-hmm … healthy, young person walking around. What, why should I care about what I'm eating? Yeah that's also a good question. It's something that I've had to ask myself as well, given the fact that I am attempting… I am providing a message that is intended for all audiences, including younger audiences. Because of who I am, I'm naturally gonna attract those people. And so the best thing that I've learned over the course of doing all of this, especially with talking to people that understand communication, marketing even, because that's all that marketing is communication. The best thing that I've learned to do is actually not make a lot of statements, is to ask a bunch of questions. So if someone actually talks to me and I say to them,"Oh, this is why you should be doing this, X, Y, Z," it doesn't matter how logical it sounds, you're talking at them. That's how they're perceiving it, okay? That's what they're doing. Th- that's what you're doing. And so if you get them to actually go through the ropes themselves the way that you've thought by asking them a question, it's sort of the Socratic method, right? Then it's much more effective. Ev- it doesn't mean that you'll persuade them on the at that moment, but you plant the seeds in their head. And so it's like opening up ner- different neural circuits. So how would I do this? How would I do it? What's the typical frame that I usually approach things with? If someone objects to my position, if they say something along those lines, I have my fiance's father, who's going to be my father-in-law he is like this as well. He says, basically, his position, it's gonna sound basically adjacent to what you've just said, what you've just used as an example. All diets can work for everyone. All diet, every diet can work for everyone. You've just got to find the one that's right for you. That's one of the most common, it's it's banal at this point. Just every, like, all right, yep, I get it. It's like I hear that's my input, and I already know reflexively what the output's gonna be like. I'm just waiting to talk 'cause I know, I already know what to say. Basically, I ask them, I go, "Okay, so you say let's clarify here. You believe that there's one you believe that all diets work for everyone, right? So basically, all diets are like different tools in a toolbox. They have equal value depending on the context. That's what you think diet is. That's how you think of diet. You go on this diet for fat loss. You go on this diet to fix endometriosis. You go on this diet. That's what you think?" And they'll usually say,"Yeah, that's exactly what I think." And I go, "Okay, so are… When you look at any other animal in the wild, are they eating different diets?" Now you gotta start with a question that's going to have holes in it, because there's not gonna be one question that has no hole that you can't poke any hole. You just have to start with one. That's usually the one I start with. They'll say no, but we're not, we're not squirrels, we're not bears, okay? We're humans." And I go, "Right. So you're saying that we're humans, and so therefore we're just, we're different, right? That we're different 'cause we're humans." And they say,"Yeah." And I go, "Okay. I totally agree with that. I'm glad that we're on the same page. In what way are we different? In what relevant ways are we different?" Usually at that point they don't know how to answer the question because they're like we just are." And I'm like y- you can understand why I can't really accept that as an answer, right?" It's really… By the way, it's actually very difficult to frame things as questions w- right on the spot, like extemporaneously. But I've done it routinely now a- as practice because I want to persuade people as, as effectively as possible. So even that, it's like I, I don't say, "I can't accept that." The, that, that can't be accepted. I have to say you can see why I don't I can't really accept that, right? Like, why someone might object to what you're saying." And then they'll say, usually they'll go ahead and if the conversation does continue, they'll try and come up with a reason. And I say let's j- let's talk about physiologically, biochemically. Do you believe that we're animals?" Yes, of course." It's like, "Okay. So you just admitted earlier, correct me if I'm wrong, tell me if this, you believe that other animals you recognize that other animals don't really have separate diets like that?" And they say no." "Yeah, I do believe that. Correct." I'd say, "Okay so why should I believe? Tell me why I should believe that we can eat a vegan diet safely. Some per- some person can, it's appropriate for them to eat a vegan diet versus someone else, oh, it's appropriate for them to, they just do better on a carnivore diet. Would that make sense? W- if you saw a lion eating a vegan diet, what would you say about that? Would you say that they're eating inappropriate? It's just, that's how they ought to be eating, that's what they want to do? Or would you say would you maybe have some concerns about that? Would you think that there's an issue with what they're doing?" And so you just guide them through the ropes here, and then eventually they, it, I've seen this happen. I'm, and just with my fiancée's mom, okay? So I talk about her dad. She's now listening to my audiobook. Okay? Because what's happened is there's some influence there that it's subtle it might not feel as good in the moment'cause you wanna, sometimes you just wanna assert your dominance idea- intellectually there."I have more knowledge than you. This is right." But I'm telling you that humility and patience goes a long way because that's the most effective way to persuade people. And it's not it's not d- it's based in fact, so it's not like you're deceiving them. It's reality. You're just getting them to think about it a different way. You're getting them to actually think through those ropes instead of thinking about it like f- yeah. You just get them to go through the ropes of changing their framing from what's healthy versus what isn't, according to science, which is how most people think about health, versus how we ought to eat and how we ought not to eat collectively According to evolutionary biology, it's a completely different frame. You have to get them to accept the frame first, and then they're usually more open to it Excuse me. I have been thoroughly honestly, Phil, entertained. But that's a good thing. Yeah, I hope it's in the right way. Y- i- it's- You know, so often, a- at least in this space, you get on a whole lot of ideologues, and th- they have a position to defend that's not driven by a simple desire to survive. Or to pursue truth generally, actually. Well- Yeah. Yeah."I could do this or I could die" is a pretty powerful motivator. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's a pleasure to hear how thoroughly you are, you have apparently researched this. Needless to say, you're preaching to the choir here o- outside of your particular condition, which, what's it called? Hypermobile EDS, Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. Yeah, probably still not gonna remember that. So- … how common is this? Oh, boy. When it comes to the statistics on it statistics are more noisy than people would like to believe. But y- just w- looking at the available ones I don't think it is very common, but I think it's becoming increasingly more common as we continue to destroy our structural health by feeding our children plant-based diets. I, I actually, I genuinely believe that. So when we talk about the genetic component, and we talk about how your genes are expressed, I genuinely believe that a big reason for so many people having neck and postural problems is because of I would say because of hypermobile EDS, but like a micro version of it. But actually, I think that, no, it- it's actually appropriate to use hypermobile EDS, because hypermobile EDS I don't think is an on/off switch. I think it's a spectrum. I think it's just, generally speaking, instability, joint, ligament instability. And I think that so many people have this problem because of poor structural health because of poor dietary inputs. And as a result of that, and also as a result of our technological age, everyone's looking down all the time. Yeah. And eventually your neck will change. It- it's crazy. It's it sounds like an old wives' tale. Oh, if you make that face for too often, you'll get stuck that way, except that kinda hap- that does happen with your neck over time, if you stay in the same position all the time. Happens with your whole posture. And so that's a… Th- those two factors, they culminate into, I think, a structural epidemic. So the first video I ever did that was solely on this topic was called, it was an interview, I interviewed my chiropractor about this, and the video was called The Epidemic No One Talks About. Because we are talking about the metabolic epidemic. That, the metabolic epidemic itself, carnivore itself is becoming mainstream, but I think it's still fringe within the mainstream, I think. So that's still improvement. But, we get Fox News articles written on us sometimes, right? Ken Berry recently. But at least the metabolic problem is already mainstream. We already know that people are super sick, right? It's the answer that people are all confused about. And so- we already know about that. That is an epidemic being talked about. But the one that I don't think is being talked about hardly at all is the one that you know I made sure to write about in my book, so I can say that I talked about it, but it's the structural, it's the structural epidemic. It's the decline in our structural health that's becoming increasingly problematic with, again, our technological age now. It was already a problem, and now we see it even more with, toddlers, two-year-olds with tablets like this, you know- Yeah … up to their face, and that's doing a lot of, that's doing a lot of work to destroy our health in many ways. I could talk for a long time about all the different things that it's doing, but it's definitely not great for structural health. You s- we sink into these cushy couches all the time now. We don't get any exercise either, so our necks are forward and all this stu- it's it's not great. It's not great. And so I think it is becoming increasingly common. I don't know the specific numbers at the top of my head, but it's still a rarity. I think more, there's more manifestations of poor, th- there, there's manifestations of poor health that are more co- much more common than hypermobile EDS. We've got skin issues. You've got diabetes. You've got obesity. Those are the most common ones, but yeah, hypermobile EDS is part of it, though. It's definitely part of it, but it is a minority. It's true. So what's the future look like for Eddie Goeke? Eddie Goeke. It's, that's also a good question. You're asking good questions. Both of you are asking good questions today. Hey, almost like I do this all the time. I have a lot that I envision in the future for myself but most of what I envision for myself that satisfies me is what I've done, again, in the future that I've constructed for myself in my head for other people. So I envision myself as being not merely influential in the carnivore space and in the health space broadly really, but I envision myself being influential in getting people to actually find, once again, the right framing on how to look at health. But not only that, but also how to pursue truth in a disciplined and rigorous fashion, how to therefore put aside ideology and and dogma, which has negative connotations. The actual denotation, the definition of dogma is not a problem. But in the colloquial sense of the word, people being dogmatic, that's not great. And getting people to do so by discovering- And finding a humble curiosity in them to actually discover the truth. Because what we're seeing today, especially once again in my generation, I've seen this just in my comment sections and stuff, but I've seen this for a very long time. There are people that adopt carnivore because they genuinely were sick and they were forced to find the right answer, and the truth led them to that answer. And you are forced, as someone that is trying to pursue the truth, to put aside your preconceived notions and prejudices about literally everything. Mm-hmm. You are forced to So people arrive at carnivore by, by pursuing the truth. There are other people, however, that adopt carnivore because it is absurd, and they are chasing absurdity. And so you're always gonna have people in every space that therefore func- they, they're basically cult members, and they don't really do a very good job of representing carnivore or any position and responsibly. And so what I'm trying to do, what I'm doing, is I'm making people aware of what the distinction is and getting them to basically relinquish themselves from the chains of ideology and start thinking about things and becoming curious, asking more questions instead of making so many statements with such conviction. That is really what my… That is what my goal is, and I envision myself being the person that is the final impetus for people to do that are coming to the space. Again, e- especially for a younger audience, they're coming to the space confused, looking for answers. They're disaffected a lot of times. That's a big one and because of the institutions that have wronged us, and sometimes though, as a result of that, people don't become right. They just become wrong in the opposite direction. So I'm trying to, I'm trying to get us back into the line of logical thinking based on evidence, not lack thereof. You can form theories. Hell, that's what I did because you have to do that in order to even… Again, you have to think outside of the box, but not to make so many convicting claims without any evidence, which is basically 99% of all health influencers online, and MDs, and, everyone. I don't- I'm sure I don't need to talk about that and how many people there are, but yeah. That that's one of the main things that c- That's one of the… That's the first thing that comes to my mind. Yeah, I think ultimately in the end the pursuit of truth is what we should all be after, and recognizing what we've been told is true that isn't actually the truth mm-hmm. That I think is a common- No … theme that I see among the, among this community. And ultimately I think that needs to remain our North Star. Mm-hmm … I think you're doing great work. Your story's amazing, and wherever it leads you I'm excited to follow it along. So tell people where they can find you, where they can follow you. Give us the book again. Yeah.
The book is Contraindicated:A Closer Look and Revision of Mainstream Health Axioms That Have Perpetuated Illness, Disorder, and Disease for Over a Century. Yes, quite the mouthful, but- It's very accurate. That is to be found on Amazon for physical copies, also the audiobook on on for Audible and the e-book as well. But f- it's basically present on every single platform in terms of the e-book. The e- the e-book and the audiobook are present on any platform that I can think of Rakuten Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, Google Play Books any pl- any platform that you can find an audiobook and an e-book. So there's that. And then the place that you can reach me where I'm most present is going to be on YouTube. You can just search my name, Edward A. Gokey. That is G-O-E-K-E and you'll find me immediately. And I if anyone is curious to, to reach out to me about anything, my email is edgokey@pm.me, as in Proton Mail. And then I guess I suppose the final thing I'll say is the Instagram handle as much as I'm least f- frequently active on there. But that is e.gokey_. So that's all my major platforms at the moment. Awesome. e.gokey_. All right. Yeah. Are you allowed to do that, an underscore to finish it? Yeah, underscore. Yeah. All right. Our guest has been Eddie Gokey, the author of Counterindicated, and easily the youngest guest we've had on. And now we- And obviously one of the most, one of the, one of the most entertaining. I'm glad to hear it. You're good at what you do. You're good at what you do. I appreciate it. I'm glad you enjoyed. Wonderful. I'm glad. Yeah. It was fun to be, it's fun to be on here. Yeah. Yeah, we like having fun people. Productive conversation as well. Productive conversation. Yeah. All right. For Dr. Philip Ovadia, this has been Stay Off My Operating Table. We appreciate you joining us. We're here every week at this time. Come back and see us.