Part I of Diane Forbes Berthoud, UMB Chief of Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion

In the first of a two-part conversation with Diane Forbes Berthoud, PhD, MA, (2:07) we're introduced to her journey from being a young Jamaican girl inspired by her parents (5:04) and encouraged to go beyond teaching (8:56) to becoming University of Maryland, Baltimore's first chief equity, diversity, and inclusion officer and vice president (16:39). We'll also learn more about plans to staff her office (33:05) and upcoming events to meet Forbes Berthoud (35:57). As always, don't forget your Pulse Check (00:45)!

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Jena Frick: 0:04

You're listening to the heartbeat of the University of Maryland, Baltimore, the UMB Pulse.

Charles Schelle: 0:16

Welcome to the UMB Pulse. I'm Charles Schelle

Dana Rampolla: 0:19

I'm Dana Rampolla.

Charles Schelle: 0:20

And Jena, Frick is on vacation. And we have a very in depth interview with Diane Forbes Berthoud, who is our chief equity diversity inclusion officer and vice president. This will be a two part conversation with Diane Forbes Berthoud. Part two of our interview will drop on October 7. Before we start our interview, it's time for a UMB pulse check. Thomas Leone has been named chief of the University of Maryland Baltimore Police Department, most recently serving as interim chief. Chief Leone joined UMDBPD in 2016. After a 20 year career with the Frederick County Maryland Sheriff's Office, he holds a Master of Science degree in Homeland Security and Crisis Management Law from the University of Maryland Francis King Carey School of Law in 2021. He received honorable mention and the leadership category of the UMD presidential core values awards. Congratulations to Chief Leone. A clinic for flu shots and COVID-19 boosters is now open a university of maryland baltimore for students of USB and employees of UMB Faculty Physicians Inc, and University of Maryland Medical System campus members. The clinic is located at the SMC Campus Center in Room 349. And it is open from 9am to noon Wednesdays and 1:30pm to 4pm Thursdays until the end of November and as needed through December. Caccination is by appointment only no walk ins are accepted. students and employees must bring their insurance card and their UMB, medical system, or FPI ID badge. COVID-19 booster doses will only be administered to qualifying individuals per current Centers for Disease Control and Prevention guidelines. To schedule an appointment and to learn more visit umaryland.edu/flu. And that is your pulse check. As chief equity diversity inclusion officer and vice president Diane Forbes Berthoud reports directly to the UMB President Bruce Jarrell, and works to steward the university's commitment to equity diversity and inclusion which you will hear referred to as EDI. In her role, Diane will catalyze the institutional change necessary for deepening and strengthening that EDI commitment and design and operationalize a transparent accountability framework to measure and evaluate the impact and effectiveness of UMB's EDI initiatives at every level of the institution. She also works closely with the provost and other senior university officials on the development of a Strategic Action Plan that will leverage current efforts and create a sustainable infrastructure that affects every aspect and every level of UMB with all that said, Welcome to the UMB Pulse, Diane! And welcome to UMB

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 2:55

Charles, thank you so much. It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me today.

Dana Rampolla: 2:58

Well and welcome back to the east coast. Diane, you came to us from the University of California, San Diego. And you were most recently Associate Vice Chancellor of equity diversity and inclusion there right?

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 3:09

That's correct.

Dana Rampolla: 3:10

Good, good. How's your transition been so far?

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 3:12

So far, so good. It's like a homecoming of sorts. I lived here in the DC Maryland area for about 15 years, living mostly in Montgomery County. I think as some people know, and my graduate studies were at Howard University between 1995 to 2000. My how time flies! Masters and PhD there and then lived in Gaithersburg and in Clarksburg and worked in Washington, D.C., also worked in Virginia. And so I've been around the area quite a bit have not been in this area living and working so it's wonderful to be here.

Dana Rampolla: 3:45

You're just a stone's throw away.

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 3:46

Indeed not far at all.

Dana Rampolla: 3:48

Now, you were also a senior fellow at the University of Maryland, College Park, right?

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 3:52

Yes in the School of Public Policy.

Dana Rampolla: 3:53

And what else? What else did you do there?

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 3:56

So there I would guess lecture on Leadership Studies. My colleagues, unfortunately a few of whom are now retired and or deceased. Georgia Sorenson being one of them and some other colleagues, Dr. Zachary Greene invited me for guest lectures doing research there being involved in experiential learning conferences that advanced access leadership, understanding of policy and so that was quite for quite a few years.

Dana Rampolla: 4:18

Wow. And then is Trinity College or Trinity Washington College another stop along your professional journey.

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 4:24

Yes, Trinity Washington University. More than a stop. I was there for almost a decade.

Charles Schelle: 4:29

Wow.

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 4:30

Shortly after graduate school, and after being a visiting professor at George Mason University. So I was at Trinity in the Department of Communication. And I earned tenure and I was promoted there as associate professor and then Chair of the communication program slash department. And so from there is where I left to go to California. And so that was actually one of my longest stints in the DC Maryland area and a joy. I really have a lot of respect for all my former colleagues there the president Pat McGuire, Provost Carlota Ocampo and colleagues actually who I just emailed yesterday to reconnect with and have great conversations.

Dana Rampolla: 5:03

That's great. But talking about your family a little bit, did you grow up in this area? Who inspired you when you were growing up?

Unknown: 5:10

Oh, thank you for that question. My family's from Jamaica, and quite a few relatives immigrated here in the 1950s, and 60s, and some in the 1990s. And so when I came here, I came to be an undergraduate student at Barry University in Miami, Florida. And that was, and it still is a very diverse, thriving alive area, which I really loved. And from there, then went to Washington, DC to Howard. So most of my family is either in the UK, the US, Jamaica, and a few are other places serving in the world. So it's been a really multicultural international upbringing for me, and who inspired me? Well, there are many, many, many people, I will start first with my family, of course, my parents who are still alive, my dad's gonna be 80 in the fall.

Charles Schelle: 5:57

Wow,

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 5:58

Yes, if everything works out with delta, mu or lambda, I might be able to travel to see him. And so both my parents are amazing people strong, focused, committed to success and education, kind, generous, hospitable. And I hope that I've learned and internalize those wonderful values from them respect, and being thoughtful about others, and our environment. Like all those great things that you know, sometimes your parents are teaching you lessons, both in action, and indeed, and as a young person, or a teenager, which I'm experiencing now that I roll, I already know that, well, now that I am of that age, to have my own family and to work in the world. so to speak, I'm really seeing how important those values were. And so a little bit about my parents and I, I'm the youngest of three siblings, all girls, girl power. So a little bit about my parents, both were committed to public service, my father was an entrepreneur who, from 1972, to the time of the 2008, nine recession, had a business and he chose to run his shipping business and an urban part of the city and one of the poorest areas and actually never moved from that area and employed people from the community, and built his business with those persons from the community until he retired. And it was not an area that was physically very safe. And so as girls, we actually were not allowed to go to his office much because he was conscious of protecting us, right, but he just had a spirit of generosity and grace and goodness and respect for others that he was like, you know, everybody deserves a chance. And so he stayed in that location for many, many years, in fact, decades and build a business there. So So I looked at that, and he never lectured us on what it meant to be kind, thoughtful and to build up the community was just his way of living. And he would often speak to complete strangers and say, Sure, okay, brother and my sister and I would go, you don't even know him. Why are you calling him your brother, you know. And then my mom, I mean, there, there's much more I could say about my father. And my mother, of course, as a woman, as a teacher and educator is what she was, and is, she was a great influence as well, kind, hospitable, wise, smart, very driven, she went to get her master's degree when I was going off to college, or before I went off to college, and ended up being a teacher of teachers to her. She was a third grade teacher and then moved up through administration. And I've told this story before, as a podcast listeners out there, if you have heard me and other venues, I said, When I was younger, and went to her, what do you want to be? So I said to her, I want to be a teacher, like you, right? And she said, No. And she said, No, I don't want you to be a teacher. I said, but you're a teacher, you do well, and she liked my dad had taught in also a poor area of the city in a public school that had limited resources. And students who, you know, received support from the government and ate their lunches, and sometimes their breakfasts there, that type of thing. And similarly, she was very smart, highly skilled, and she never moved from that school. She taught there for decades, as well, the same grade and all of this for years. Anyway. So when I said, I, you know, I did these tests. And the tests said that I was either going to go into counseling law, or education to be a teacher, and I think my professions over the last decades have kind of been a bit of law argumentation, teaching and counseling. And so I come back in the middle, I want to be like, this is a revelation, I want to be a teacher. And so anyway, when we probed why, you know, I was like, why would you not want me to be like you or to do the great work that I think you're doing as a teacher, particularly in an elementary slash Primary School in a public school setting with students who needed the most like, need your skill the most. And she very simply, at first, that I don't want you to be poor, because of how poorly teachers have been and are paid particularly in the public schools. to stem for the level of dedication and skill and talent that many of our teachers are bringing world over. And she extended it even farther, not to say teaching was a bad profession, but she had struggled her life economically, and did not want that to happen with us as her daughters. And so she said, You know, I don't want you to report and of course, we had a great conversation about it and have over the years. And what she determined was that she thought that I had the talent and the knowledge and the drive to teach at a university. And so she said to me, it's okay. Teaching is great if you want to teach, teach at the university. And she also said, so interesting, this is all has all come to pass. Right? You know, and you should work in administration or seek to like run things, you know, so she was thinking way before her time, I think of women's leadership, advancement, promotion, being in the roles, when 30-40 years ago, there were very few women anything in a leadership role. And, you know, politically, organizationally educationally, you know, and she was already in a way speaking that into my life, and in this conversation, and in the words that she had at that time, I don't want you to be poor, I don't want you to be struggling like I do, you know, she was thinking certainly do that. And I think you have the talent to run a school or, or do something like that. In fact, if I want you to K through 12, I did have a very short stint in K through 12. And when I got to the college environment, and did my doctoral studies, my advisor, who's now at George Mason, and nica, Tara, she recommended that, you know, you might like this university because I was interested in women's leadership development and women's leadership experiences. And she's like, you might like this university training, he was Trinity College then. And so I can certainly talk about that later. So that's how I got through that's all my parents and you know, great people along the way on grandparents mentors at the university and the community and so on.

Charles Schelle: 12:01

You certainly had a roadmap quite map where your future and that's amazing and you know, a lot of people are probably still wondering, you know, in college and afterwards, like, you know, what will I do, but it sounds like maybe even at the time, when you were at Barry University, you at least had an idea of the path you wanted to take.

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 12:19

You know, I wasn't sure. I I liked communication, because it was about people. And of course, I'm speaking to communication professionals. So your bias. I liked people still do. You were all okay. Right? Mostly. Yeah, I liked people. I liked problem solving. I liked the idea of listening. You know, people think communication is talking. And obviously, I'm doing that now I can do that. However, I enjoy the experience of human development and evolution, I enjoy the experience of hearing from others, what their life experience has been, and not just hearing but being with others while they're having their life experiences. And so I think that's why I ended up studying other languages I've ended up somehow through work or research, or personally, traveling parts of the world, I really enjoy being in spaces that are not always my own, and with people in whatever ways are different from my own life experience, and that's because sometimes I've been in spaces where I've been different from others, and in some cases have experienced a great deal of integration and acceptance, love, fellowship, and that kind of thing. And so wherever I can, like my parents did express hospitality and grace and understanding to others I have tried with with fault, you know, to extend that so yeah, it's been quite a roadmap. But at Barry, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. But communication had things like I ended up studying gender and communication, intercultural communication, broadcast and media, we had an internship with some local stations and so if you wanted to do broadcast and media could be a thing and clearly I'm doing some of that now. But I think that helps me with my public speaking. The part that I loved the most of all the areas which is what I ended up doing in graduate school had to do with organizational communication and development. So how do groups of people as as many societies, if you will form perform develop, change our experiences and the experiences of others? How do we problem solve, make decisions? Where's their conflict? How do we resolve conflict, I loved learning about group dynamics and group communication, team communication and how to make that better. So that kind of was my hook when I came to DC from Miami and teaching for a while in K through 12. I did not have a clear roadmap but the exposure to Communication Arts was the major and I also did quite a bit of coursework almost a double major It was called a minor then but I earned a certificate in Spanish translation interpretation. So I was in the Latinx culture in Miami which was mostly Cuban and some friends from the Republica Dominicana from the Dominican Republic. And I love that and so went from there and then tried to find myself I'm still doing

Charles Schelle: 15:01

At Barry, you mentioned about your family coming to the United States. Did your family already arrive in America? Or do you step out and say, Hey, fam, I am going to America to college. And if you want to catch up, I'll see you later.

Unknown: 15:16

So I had some relatives already here. And so one of my sisters was, was here actually in Miami. And she's still in the Florida area, although not in Miami proper. And my parents were and still are in Jamaica. So they're there with with cousins and others. And I had aunts and other relatives here who came from wow, from maybe the 1960s or so. In fact, when I was in graduate school, I lived in Silver Spring, and it's what a lot of our family does, and cultures that are collectivist or focused on community will do. I lived with my father's sister when I was in graduate school, and there was not an expectation that, you know, although I did assist with living expenses, and all of that. It was well, okay, you want to come here well, to come and live with us? You know, it was it was an act of kindness and hospitality, for which I have been forever grateful. And you know, Silver Springs a great place, Takona Park area, love that area. And so I kind of got my introduction to the Washington, DC area living there, and then going to school in Washington, DC. So some of my family was here as an extended family. My family of origin for the most part was in Jamaica, except for one of my sisters.

Dana Rampolla: 16:23

Now, did your parents wind up moving here?

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 16:25

No, myparents are still there. They're still there. Yeah. So my other relatives are the ones who are in this area. And I'll go back and forth when I can, hopefully, again, with the with the viruses or virus that I can get to see them soon.

Dana Rampolla: 16:39

Nice. Well, Diane, you've shared about your organizational communications background and your strong academic career, how would you say those two converge to lead you to expertise on equity, diversity and inclusion?

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 16:51

Thank you for that question. So at Howard, I ended up and this has been my life, you know, you have a program you can look at the program you go, Well, it meets some of my needs, it answers some of my questions. You know, there were classes on principles of organization development, od classes on conflict, group dynamics, problem solving, etc, which were also class some of those classes were an undergraduate. In my undergraduate experience, however, a lot of the experience while very important to me focused on the specific parts of my identity, particularly being African descended, being Black being, you know, from an immigrant background, and so on. However, I was also interested in the experience of woman womanhood, and what it means to be a Black woman. And so with those intersections, along with others with those intersectional elements, the Department of Communication Studies, now called the Department of Communication and culture had some of those elements studying Africanisms, African philosophy, history, the histories and experiences in and around slavery and those present day effects. However, the psychology department had some of the elements related to the psychology of gender at the time, called Third World Feminisms and other kinds of ways of understanding women's experiences. And it's fine. There's no one program that answers all those questions or explores all those major issues. So I found myself like dipping out and taking a class here or there sometimes, and so called overload in psychology, and so taking social psychology and take classes in psychology of gender, and women and trauma and just different courses. And so I went to my advisor, and I say, could I earn an interdisciplinary doctorate, and I was like, this was almost 25 years ago, and it was not something people are talking about it now. But it was not something that was known or that people did. And so she was like, you can continue to you guys over there. But just know that your fellowship is paid through this program, and therefore, and I was like, thanks for that advice with your institution. It was great advice. And so I ended up taking classes in psychology. Why is that important? Because in both ways, not only did I learn the outcome, or what communication is I understood reasons and behavior and background and social norms, and social histories, and how all of those things then impacted, which is what I ended up studying, formerly women's executive leadership experiences, and specifically, the experiences of women of color who are Black, Black, identified or African descended. And so all of that around helping organizations solve problems and learn about perfecting, if you will, or refining processes for good ended up with the equity diversity inclusion element. So of course, anything having to do with any group that's underrepresented and women are still underrepresented in so many fields, and so are people of color and so are people of color in leadership, and we could go on with all the other intersections and layers. that drove me even more than anything else. And both the department's of communication and psychology spoke to those elements of the conundrum in the human experience organizationally, and somehow although I have studied quite a bit about suicide, As a scholar and practitioner and researcher, society seemed a little bit less tangible in the sense that it was harder to put my hands around and come up with answers for that. Whereas they thought, organizationally, I could find answers and work with others to solve something on a smaller scale. Although I came from an institution previously, it was the 80,000 people, but somehow, you know that that seemed really attractive and amazing.

Dana Rampolla: 20:23

Well, your title leads with equity. And I do hear you saying there's a lot of equity work in your background. So is there common themes and the types of equities that you think need to be addressed?

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 20:35

Yes, there are. And I think in my interview process, and in some of my talks with the various groups with whom I've met, I have outlined that part of my agenda will be around approaching achieving focusing on equity, which is understanding the barriers and the disparities that exist in whatever social or organizational system, and not just understanding them, assessing them so that we know so measuring literally numbers, the persons who are represented, we talked about this before we got on the air, you know, under representation of women or other marginalized groups, traditionally, marginalized groups in STEM fields, for example, or any field are in leadership roles. And so we can think about, well, that's a disparity and what are the barriers to advancement or leadership for any of those groups or, or success in their well being? What are those barriers, and we know this from data, and then through an equity lens, focusing on then addressing those barriers, and that's through mentorship and sponsorship, and stretch assignments, and search, committee training, inclusive hires, and the kinds of things that prevent us from excluding groups for all kinds of reasons because of our historical or current biases is because of historical disparities and oppression that certain groups have faced. So it's a very big ask, you know, organizationally to have us as not just a society, but as an individual and a structure. Think about eliminating barriers and disparities. But that's what equity is about from my perspective and trying to do that, organizationally means we invest time we invest financial, physical, personal resources, human resources to bring about the kinds of changes or evening not just the playing field, but providing greater opportunities for those who haven't had that in the past.

Dana Rampolla: 22:28

How do you see doing that in a tangible way here at UMB? Can you give us any examples?

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 22:34

In a tangible way. First, we start with the data. And we have some sources of data to which we can point at the moment that tell us about which is part of what I was just mentioning, representation, who's where and when? And who populates what particular ranks, right? Or what particular levels. So, faculty, assistant, associate, full prof. I know their instructional and other categories and same for students and same for staff. To look at what are our development programs? And what impact are those programs having? So has there been a training is someone in a fellowship is someone in a mentoring program or some kind of advisor or leadership program? Then we need to investigate to that program has been running since 2016, where we're in 2021, we need to investigate over the last five years, what change has been made, in that staff members are in that faculty members lab. So we can measure not only who is where which is measuring presence, but we then we can then look at progress over time, time to degree time to tenure time in rank or time and title or position and assess then, is this equitable? Are there some difficulties here? Do we see that one group is taking I don't know, six to eight years when it's supposed to be four to six years or not? You know, and thinking about what problems there might be, we can also think about people's experiences of the campus. This is climate in their school or division and measuring which which the campus has done sense of belonging, trust, value, those kinds of things, and measuring over time, has that changed? Right? And so some of that, not all, because training is not the answer for everything, although it does help offering training as well as holding ourselves and our institution accountable. So great to have the measures and everything I tried to solve the problems, we also have to integrate that sense of accountability, how are measures looking or metrics looking in your area in your division, leader x or leader a, and then thinking about what might be needed so that whatever group that has not been experienced in the same opportunities receive those opportunities. So some of the tangible things I mentioned briefly earlier, would be training for search committees. And in my previous institution, some of what we did was because it was such a large institution doing that for director level and above and there were searches it seems at least two, three, four a month, somewhere on the campus. So that's a lot of work, right? So if we did it for every staff member I came from an institution with 20,000 staff. That'll be quite a very interesting job. But But needed, right? So, so thinking here about what what's the level of skill of the search committees or the search committees, first of all the diverse from different schools, populations, backgrounds, social identities, and so forth. So that that's one of the ways we can mitigate bias by integrating difference in multiple ways, right? So that there is no one perspective that dominates and there's less chance of homogeneity and furmity formation bias, like, okay, that person is similar to me or saying what I'm thinking or I like that person confirmation bias or whatever, then that can lead to something that's going to produce an inequitable and exclusive environment. So trainings, development, offering opportunities for money, right? Money, money for fellowships, and those kinds of things that put faculty in the kinds of programs that help them to advance write the grants or get to know that whatever their goals are same for staff, and same for students. And it is a very large undertaking, which is why I hope to hire my staff this semester, and work with campus partners throughout to advance some of these goals.

Charles Schelle: 26:04

Something to add here is you want to get that perspective of people from all forms of life in having someone understand that perspective.

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 26:12

Yes.

Charles Schelle: 26:13

And I think it's even more important is that when the conversation takes place is how do you think get that group of people to come to a consensus?

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 26:20

That is really hard. Yeah. And so this is why leadership is so important. So the search committees not only are trained as a whole, but co-chairs or chair also needs to be a part of that experience. And so who are our co-chairs, right, who is leading the search, they also have to be trained, or at least mentored or we have to collaborate with each other, to build that kind of inclusive environment to learn how to listen to learn about, you know, group dynamics are literally are there parts of the room that are dominating conversation? Are there particular perspectives? That are the focus of the conversation beyond? You know, well, I think so -- Well, thank you, you know, and we listen, and we integrate, are there others, you know, inviting others who have different ways of working, I'll give you an example, from my own life. You know, if anybody out there has done the Myers Briggs test, The MBTI, Myers Briggs test inventor, I think it's called that so. So I took this first in graduate school. So in 1995, I took this test my deceased mentor from from Yale, Dr. Leroy Wells, administered this test, and it was our training and development class. And so part of the thinking was, if you are going to be involved in training and development in organizations, then you have to know yourself. And one of the ways you might know yourself, in addition to your social identities, and your family's history, and cultural history, etc, would also be understanding one's personality, how you approach the world, your preference, your orientation to the environment, individuals to groups, decision making up how you process information, like all of the various I think there are four or five dimensions, okay? So the first two or three as you can, maybe two or three times in five years, I kind of came out as extremely introverted surprise, extremely introverted. I'm saying surprise now, because that was 20 plus years ago, and I've changed somewhat and that was because not that I didn't like people not that I was shy, necessarily. And I still have some of those elements. And the last time I took it, I was teaching a class and I might have taken it maybe two, three years ago. I'm still an "I" - IE introverted. However, instead of being extremely introverted at like, 25-27, whatever my score was, then I think my score last time was like three or four, which means slightly introverted, but I still score an "I." And what that means is, I take longer to-- I need the time to be thoughtful about new ideas, I need the time to listen to others to understand, which is what I'm doing now campus wide to understand the landscape. I process internally first, and so I'll need time not happening here on the beach, or on the trail here or hiking or walking or running. I'll need time to do that by myself on my own. So I can do a day like this, where I'm meeting with Charles and Dana and D'ag is here taking pictures. And I'm enjoying myself because I've had that time for two or three hours this morning by myself to do this. And I'll do this all day till I get back home with my families, lots of talking and eating and everything else. And then at 10 o'clock, it's like and I'm out because I am tired. Mentally I have expended a lot in listening and engaging with you all in the rest of the meetings for my day. And all of that I mentioned that because the IE continuum, this is kind of getting into psychology. Hi folks out there. I love this stuff. The IE continuum around introversion extroversion, just one way to show the dimensions of the human experience and people are all along that there are studies now about ambiversion and that there are people I think, like me, who can exhibit extroverted behaviors but our orientation or preference in life is to be introverted. So I'll probably listen to a podcast from here on the way over walking 15 to 18 minutes on my own. And just kind of collect my thoughts before my next thing where I may have to do this, you know, experience again of being social. How does that relate to search committees and organizational life, my name teaching and learning. When I was a student, I was very, very quiet. And it's because I was so into the class discussion and the professors ideas and looking at the book and taking my notes. And I remember, I think was my first or second semester in grad school. After about, I don't know, it might have been two or three months into the semester, a question was asked, and sometimes I don't do very well with what do you think? And you have to take Snap, snap answer, right? And so there were those kinds of questions in class. And I would take notes with the answer in my notebook back when people wrote in spiral notebooks, yeah, I would write the answer in my notebook, I'm still a hand writer. And I would have it there if I were called upon. But if I had to speak up on my own, I wouldn't necessarily do that. So when I began teaching myself and as a researcher, and when I facilitate groups, like search committees, or train all the people on that I provide different opportunities. And it's important to provide different opportunities for people to give feedback in the ways that make sense to them. And that are most comfortable, some people would like to send an email, some people would like to, are able to, like extroverts initiate conversations, speak up first, and sometimes speak longer. Whereas introverts, like myself, we think first, then we talk, and then we think some more and we reflect, and the order is reversed for extroverts, they'll, you know, talk first and then they or they'll say, I'm thinking out loud, like extroverts tend to do that. And both can coexist and, and collaborate really well. It's on a search committee, for example, someone's quietness may be perceived as ignorance or disengagement. And so either I'll call on that person individually, and or after the meeting, talk with them, and or give people an opportunity to email their feedback. So those are the kinds of things and of course, there are differences with men, women, persons who are non binary, they're all these kinds of studies about how we interact and how we solve problems, none is better than another what we have to be careful of, in ways thinking about culture, and gender, and histories and oppression and so forth, are making sure that we include all and we take all seriously that we respect the views of all the people in the room, and not just the people who appear to be of a particular identity or perspective, that's where we get into a lot of trouble. And that's actually what we unfortunately have done in many organizations. So concrete pieces, as well as thinking about training around some of these elements, as well as gender, race, ethnicity, and all the other ways that we are different and alike.

Dana Rampolla: 32:43

I'm a huge fan of Myers Briggs also, I took it the first time when I was a teacher back in another lifetime ago. And I think it's so interesting how now we recognize that there are extroverted introverts as well as introverted extroverts. Yeah. And it does seem that that evolves a little bit, as you're saying, you kind of tapped into pieces or parts that you needed to, to focus on. So Diane, I'm curious like to talk to you a little bit about the staff that you'll have helping you out. And I'm curious, will you have your staff take the Myers Briggs?

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 33:14

This is a good one! I haven't thought about it yet. I know that I would like to have each of my staff members commit to some kind of professional development, which I hope they will choose. And I will certainly look for opportunities to recommend to them. And that's actually built into my budget partially. So the staff that I will have I am hiring this fall, I think both applications are closed one is an executive assistant. And that person will help me do things like make sure I get where I'm supposed to go to talk to Charles and Dana, and I will meet with the finalists soon. So sometime this month, I'm interviewing finalists, and I'll also have a director of equity, diversity inclusion, and that person will help me beyond scheduling coordinate and everything else, which my assistant will help me to do with strategic planning, implementation report, writing research, collaboration with a campus event planning, project management. So all the things that I've described involve faculty, staff, students, and other learners and and employees, right. So that's going to be hard for any one person to reach. And so I'm hoping a director will help me craft those programs, launch them communicate with you all about communication strategy, and helping me in some areas where I'm unable to be and or help me produce things that I need to produce. So that'll be exciting. So I'm starting first with a staff of two and yeah, maybe we'll take the Myers Briggs and have a conversation about that. Thanks for the

Charles Schelle: 34:35

I have to take it myself. I've been around a suggestion. long time so I've got one my letters are I did have one test when when I worked at Patch slash AOL they they made everyone take these personality tests. They're color driven, was like green for like creative and yellow, red and everything. They say a lot of CEOs are green I think for I think it's creative, right? I think it's creative, because at the end of the day, it meant there was a lot of drive of ideas, and you get a flood of ideas. But the execution

Diane Forbes Berthoud: 35:08

The implementation?

Charles Schelle: 35:09

Yeah. That was that was one of the questions. That was the question was, there would be a lot of ideas. Yeah, the implementation and follow through on getting those ideas completed, were a challenge so they could create a lot ideas. But right, but it also can create a burden on your staff. Interesting to kind of look back at yeah at that and how that shaped out. Dana and I will have to leave it there for now, with our first part of our conversation with Diane Forbes Berthoud. Our second part of the conversation will drop October 7 and you will hear Forbes Berthoud's plans for the remainder of the academic year, and how the UMB community can get involved with her office. You can meet and talk with Forbes Berthoud at two upcoming virtual UMB events. She will speak at the President's Symposium on Wednesday, September 29 at noon. This year's symposium will be virtual via Zoom in a series explores UMB's strategic priorities for Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. Then on Thursday October 7, which is the same day our second part of our conversation air, Forbes Berthoud will also be a guest on "Virtual Face to Face with President Bruce Jarell." That will start at 2 p.m., via WebEx and Facebook Live. Links to both events can be found in the chapter markers on our podcast player at umaryland.edu/pulse. Back to the personality test that I referenced at the end of our segment. That is called Four Colors Personalities, and that's offered by True Colors International. Now coincidentally, it is offered to UMB employees through the UMB Career Essentials program. If you are interested to learn more contact Michele Carter Hunt with UMB Human Resource Services. To find her visit umaryland.edu/pulse click on our chapter markers in our podcast player and you'll find a link to Michelle's email address. Next Thursday will be another pulse check and advice from Etta Kitt. Until then, thanks for listening to the UMB Pulse.

Jena Frick: 37:10

The UMB Pulse with Charles Schelle, Dana Rampolla and Jena Frick is a UMB Office of Communications and Public Affairs production. Edited by Charles Schelle, sound engineering by Jena Frick, marketing by Dana Tampolla. Music by No Vibe. Recorded in the University of Maryland Baltimore Community Engagement Center.