After Thoughts
After Thoughts
After Thoughts: Low Fives
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
[A.I. Generated] Have you ever wondered what secrets lurk beneath the surface of our everyday interactions? Our latest episode takes you on a journey through the hidden compartments of our lives, with storytelling from a former CIA operative turned confidant. We open up about the powerful moments of vulnerability and how they shape the deepest connections in our lives, walking you through personal narratives that may resonate with your own hidden chapters.
Stripping back the layers of content creation, we confront the authenticity of our digital personas. We look at why our audience tunes in – is it for us, or is it for the polished content we put out? Through candid conversations, we share the trials and triumphs of podcasting, music-making, and the surprisingly profound ways these creative outlets have strengthened our bonds and opened new avenues for self-discovery.
As parents and creators, we hold a magnifying glass to the bittersweet passage of time, reflecting on the ephemeral nature of childhood and the inherent gifts of parenting. From comforting kids after nightmares to the joyful chaos of a household with pets, we muse on the importance of being present and how our creative endeavors not only bring healing to ourselves but also to our family life. Join us for an episode filled with laughter, vulnerability, and a pinch of parental wisdom, all wrapped up in the warm embrace of shared experience.
Opening Up in Relationships
Speaker 1Yeah , this is when you think about the things .
Speaker 2Yeah , so there was this episode of a podcast that I watched with this former CIA spy and he talks about . Everybody has a public life , a private life and a secret life , and the public life is , you know , the projection that people put out there of how they want everyone else to see them .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2The Instagram live , yeah . Or just like the way that you project yourself with your coworkers , your acquaintances , your brand yeah .
Speaker 2And then the private life is where people kind of come into your inner circle and you're kind of more vulnerable and you let them see you know who you are outside of those contexts . Yeah , but catered probably , right , yeah , I mean that's where you know you have the people that you trust , right , yeah . But then the secret life is the stuff that is only inside your head and most people don't let those people , don't let people into that . Yeah , and that's like reserved for the , like the , at best like your significant other . You know , maybe , maybe , right .
Speaker 2Depending on what , how nefarious Right , right and so , like his job as a spy was to get into that secret life as quickly as possible , because once you're in that secret life , they like you , they never let go . You like you never leave . Basically , yeah , and that's how you get in with people Interesting . And I realized that there was parts of my life that I had kept secret in that secret life from Amy , and when we had that conversation is when I finally opened up and put it all out on the table and like let her in fully . Wow , and that was the first time that I'd really ever done that and and that was what sparked that connection .
Speaker 2Like you , you can't really have that genuine connection , and with your significant other , especially until , like you know , you get it all out there and you know , I don't I don't know if it's the right thing to do to like do that fully , I have no idea , I just know that , like for me , you know , there may be some things that I should only talk to a therapist about , I don't know , but probably . But but there are . There were definitely things that I should have been telling Amy in the conversations we should have been having that I was not having , yeah , and and because of that I was , I couldn't really fully connect and and we both sensed it , and she had stuff too Like , but because I opened up like she felt like she , it was safe for her to open up and and I think that that was one of the main catalysts oh man , this says can I open ? This media may be damaged . Oh fuck , what the hell ? Dude , hold on a second , I don't know what I'm going to say next .
Speaker 2Anyway , that was , that was a major catalyst of of us being able to finally really start connecting at that intimate level . Yeah , and I don't , I don't feel like that was a lot of what sort of shattered the stories that I had created , that , the sort of virtual reality I think , was that that's our secrecy allowed that to thrive .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2And when I shed light on it , it couldn't . It couldn't stand up to it . You know it , it broke apart .
Speaker 1Sure , Like there's . There's definitely something very powerful in letting someone else , anybody else , into that inner , inner court , you know of your , of your psyche , where that narrative is playing really loudly , and you let somebody else hear that narrative for the first time and they're like this isn't how you are and they get to like speak against that narrative in a way that you're like , because they've actually heard the language of that narrative , they , they can speak to it in a more direct way .
Speaker 1That is more impactful to you . Personally , I mean , I've definitely had situations where that's happened and I feel like that's something that we definitely struggle with the most , I mean between me and you and probably a lot of our , our listeners , even I just I just think that that's that's something and maybe that's what everybody struggles with . You know , maybe it's a human condition that we do have this like secret inner , you know , palace , that we try to hide in and hide all of our things , and we have this space that we , we put the things that are the most shameful or the most , you know , intimate intimate in a way , that is , you know , the thing that defines us , whether we realize it defines us or not . It's like that thing that is so close to the chest that we , we feel like we can't tell anybody else or we can't let anybody else in on that , because what would that mean , you know ? And also , like what if they agree with it ? You know , like what if they're like yeah , that's .
Speaker 1I mean , that is kind of how you are , you know , and that's that's our biggest fear probably would never happen in real life , you know , because otherwise , if people , if other people thought about us the way that we think about ourselves , they wouldn't be in our life , they wouldn't love us , they wouldn't care about us . And because we're always our harshest critic and at least I know me and you probably are , and I can speak to that at least and so you know , it's man , I've , I've been constantly trying to remind myself that I'm not as bad as I think I am in all things and like , and even like giving myself space for to be not perfect and not and I want to apply that to this podcast I'm interested to see all my editing changes in this podcast , when I let leave things in just because , because you know what the inner part of me thinks , this needs to be like perfected and I'm just going to leave it just to just to like rub some friction on that part of myself because it's fine , no one else is going to notice
Authenticity and Connection in Content Creation
Speaker 1.
Speaker 1And I think about I've been thinking about that a lot in music , like in the way that I'm trying to present myself to people , and you know , it's actually what got me thinking about this a lot , and this is overall thing is like when you start trying to define what your authentic quote unquote authentic brand is as a content creator , like what ? Why would somebody follow me ? Why would somebody hit subscribe on anything that I do ? That is a direct line to that inner space where I start having to face very , very viscerally that inner narrative . That's saying why would anybody care about you ?
Speaker 1And that is I've been having that I this probably could have made it the main episode . This is . This is something that I hadn't thought about , but this is . It's a constant thing . It's a cycle going on . It's a rerun episode going on in my brain constantly right now , because I'm trying to figure out what my brand is , because I want the brand to be authentic , I want it to be me . I don't want it to be a filtered version of me , and you know me long enough to know how hard that would be for me . And because I'm always kind , I mean we're always a little bit filtered versions of ourselves . But , like , I don't know , I feel like I mean , even with this podcast , if we're just going to be talking about full on insecurity and when it comes from that space , it's like , do people love this podcast ? Because , like , do people love me in this podcast , or do people love us together , or do people just love what we talk about ? You know what I mean . Like , do we , do they actually love ? Do they do they ? Are they into us as people ? It's a hard . I mean , do we know that ? Can we answer that ? I mean , I don't know . It doesn't matter it . I mean if , if on a content level , to make it a business . Yeah , it matters . Because because and a good way to test that is do that . Does it translate to other things that we do when you release a book , will the people who listen to this podcast go buy the book ? Because just to support you as a person , because people who are content creators online .
Speaker 1The thing that is wild to me is how people will follow , me included . I have done this . I start caring about a fucking stranger . They're like posted about their damn life , a completely mundane life , and I'm watching the stupid video and I find myself asking myself in the middle of video why am I watching this ? Like , what does it matter ? It's , it's . It's like it's weird entertainment . It's like a reality show of in , in , in , in its in its most true form , I guess . But like , why do I care ? You know I've there's this couple that I follow who are both like fitness people and they're like crazy fitness people who are amazing at it and do really cool stuff and I find myself following . I'm like , why am I following their vacation when I was subscribing to their fitness stuff ?
Speaker 2Why ? I mean , honestly , I think it speaks to our need for connection . Sure , definitely does , and the reason why people listen to this podcast is because they connect with us . Yeah , and it's not I mean , but why ?
Speaker 1that's that and it's . I want to know why it's .
Speaker 2It's it's because we're vulnerable enough to share things that are true about ourselves . Yeah , and the people who , who have a shared experience in that , resonate with that and they feel that connection . That's that's what it is , and it's not because we're special in any way . It's just because we've we've taken the action to , you know , to put ourselves out there and just and share and open up . And we have found the magic formula of it works for us , because you and I have known each other so long and we can open up to each other and mostly pretend that no one else is listening and as fives , we're able to sort of override that , that mechanism that wants to keep us .
The Power of Authenticity in Podcasting
Speaker 2But who are we ?
Speaker 1kidding . We've been doing this long enough . We know everybody's listening . I know , but like , but at the same time , like , you and I are talking as friends right , I mean I ran into a complete stranger today in my job that has listened to our podcast . That's never happened before . But for me as a you know I'm trying to I mean , as much as I hate it , I wish that as a musician it could just be about the music , but like there's so many more facets to that now , People don't care about the music .
Speaker 2They care about how they can see themselves in the music . Right , and they . They do that to the extent that you put yourself in the music , yeah , Right . And it's the same way with the podcast Like the . To the extent that we show up as ourselves in this podcast is the extent to which people can see themselves , and that's where the connection happens . Yeah , and it's a , it's a mirroring thing and that's why , like one of our most popular so for I think it was like just during season one when , you know , I was attempting to do some sort of marketing around this and actually put some videos out there by far the most popular one was the one of you talking about your reaction when you open up presence .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Because it's very , very specific .
Speaker 2Yeah , right , and and for , you know , the hundreds of millions or billions of people out there on social media like a small percentage of them were resonate with that , but the ones who have experienced that resonated with that big time . And there are the people who would listen to the show because it's , you know , people like us , yeah , and that's all that it is , and , and so I think that , like what we , the I'm going to make some assumptions around like some of the motivation behind a question like that of you know , why are people listening to this ? Is it ? And trying to separate , like us from the content and and us individually from each other ? Like it , that's all ego , it doesn't really matter Like . What matters is is that connection , and and what we're doing is creating space for that connection to happen . That's really what we're doing with this podcast .
Speaker 1Yeah , I mean . Well , the podcast just works . It's just so easy . It's easier for me to be myself with you .
Speaker 2Well , the other thing that's really a little bit fucked up about this is like I feel like we connect best through the podcast . I didn't really start to get to know you to the podcast , that's true . And we've been friends for a very long time .
Speaker 1Well , you know well , and part of that was intentional on my part , you know , I chose to , I chose vulnerability , I chose that path and I chose to challenge myself in a way that I hadn't ever done outside of it . And so , like that was , that was , it's almost like having that platform and having that medium helped me do that .
Speaker 2And sure , or it was at least an excuse for you to do that right , Sure it was like it was almost a performance right , but I mean it doesn't make it .
Speaker 1It doesn't make it less authentic , but it was a performance aspect to it , like it tapped into a thing that I knew well , but it gave you permission to do it .
Speaker 2I think yeah , no for sure .
Speaker 1Yeah , definitely that's what I'm saying . I think it allowed me to like , switch on the performance and be like , oh , this is just the thing we're doing , and like , and in that way , especially in the beginning , it was like no one else , maybe no one else will hear this , it doesn't matter .
Speaker 1And now , like thousands and thousands of people have listened so much so that I met a random stranger in my job who knew the podcast .
Speaker 1But yeah , I don't know .
Speaker 1And I think that I'm trying to figure out how that translates into other areas , because I deeply care about being a musician and I've definitely come around to realizing how much of how much I want to do that and how much I think that and finally believing in myself enough to think that I have it in me to do it , and so it's finding , trying to find that magic , the magic sauce of who is my audience right and so , but I can't find that out until I am putting content out there that is just me , whatever that is . You know , you got artists like Louis Capaldi , who is the most insane and ridiculous and not artist like person ever , and you can see all of his faults and his positives and the way that he masks insecurity , like he literally doesn't hide anything and is just himself , and he created a following around that because people were into that into some degree . People were into it maybe , if they don't even relate to it , you know , and so I'm trying to find that level of vulnerability and , in honesty , in myself .
Speaker 2That's a big thing , like speaking of someone who has been a content creator for a while and has interviewed a lot of content creators . I think that people can really fall into this like personal brand trap of trying to define their personal brand . I think that's largely bullshit , because you are your personal brand and that's kind of what I was getting at is like just to the degree that you can be honest about , like what you're feeling and what you're experiencing , that will resonate with people who are like you and that you attract and you don't have to define that . I think I mean , because I've run a , I've done a lot of marketing and branding stuff right For other people and this whole . I have this whole process where I can walk people through like figuring out what the brand is , and I've mainly done it for you know , for more like businesses and when you start to , but I try to do it for myself , for my own kind of personal brand , and it doesn't really work . I mean I hate the process . I don't want to really define it , I just want to be , I just want to show up and you'll get an intuitive sense of like what your audience will care about , because it's the things that you care about .
Speaker 2And so you start to attract , because otherwise , what you're doing if you're trying to really focus on , like , a brand , your own personal brand , and defining it in a specific way what ends up happening is you'll start to attract people that actually don't really resonate with you . They resonate with the projection of you , yeah , and then you'll get into a point where you hate being an artist because you're then trying to create content for the people who have an idea of in their head of you , who you are , that it does not actually align with who you are . So stop worrying about your personal brand and just like be you . And that's why this podcast works is because we don't worry about the brand of the podcast and like , how many conversations have we had about , like , defining our audience ? Like zero , right , Sure , and it's not because I don't know the like , we don't know the importance of it and I don't have a process for it , cause I could , I could walk us through , like you know , that whole process , but it doesn't matter for us because our brand is just us , like , we just show up and we have some parameters around , like this is an Enneagram Five podcast , but we both have said like this is more than an Enneagram Five podcast .
Speaker 2Right , this is just like this . The Enneagram Five subject is the excuse for us to show up and be ourselves and like , unpack things , and it's a it's essentially like a keyword optimizer for us to be discovered in podcasts .
Speaker 1That's just SEO it literally is like it's so funny .
Speaker 2That was strategic on my part to just name our podcast Enneagram Five , because I knew that in search engines we would rank when people one search for Enneagram and also two search for like podcast , for Enneagram Type Five , because when you search for that we're the ones that show up because that's the name of the podcast . Like it . Just , you know it makes sense , but we I mean we could have named this thing like anything and have the same sort of content because it's just us , but we wouldn't have been as discoverable in that way . So there's a strategy to that piece of it , but like the branding piece of it was literally I found a background on Canva , right , yeah , and the Enneagram Sims yeah of course , yeah , I didn't want to spend money on it .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , yeah , for sure .
Speaker 2We didn't know if anyone's actually gonna listen to it .
Speaker 1Yeah , I promise you rethink that .
Speaker 2I mean , look , I cannot revisit it . I cannot overemphasize how painful it is for me , as someone with a marketing background , to not actually invest in any of that stuff for the podcast . It's really painful , but at the same time , like I also , I feel like right now we need to focus on the conversations we're having , yeah , and creating this body of work which we're not quite done with yet .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's true , and we still got a little bit more .
Speaker 2And you know , I honestly like I don't know if I've told you this or not , but , and you've probably figured it out of like a large part of my motivation for starting this podcast , too , was like coaching you through some of the things that , like you , I knew that you were needing to work through , and this was a good platform for that . Sure , and then what I didn't anticipate was how much of like it would help me as well , and like working through stuff on my end , as evidenced by the conversation that we've been having tonight . Yeah , and , and so you know it , this what we're , you know , it's so funny to me , like what you said earlier was such a great illustration of , I think , how fives think about connection , of like you put so much energy and how to figure out , how to be in the moment and connect with people and stuff like that . But like that's not what we're doing right now , but we're connecting , like this is connection Right .
Speaker 1Right , and what I'm literally thinking in the back of my mind , like how people will listen to this , like maybe they'll like it more than the regular episodes , you know , even knows Well , and that's the thing that I'm trying to say , I guess , is that like it's that process that has led me to pass the branding conversation and more into like how do I , how do I discover who , how to be
Exploring Creativity and Authenticity
Speaker 1? It's because it's like you can't , I don't know , maybe you can , maybe I should be just literally posting everything and just seeing what sticks . But like , yeah , I don't , and that would be . That's actually an exercise all on its own for a five probably to just like put myself out there on the internet without any kind of filtering or editing or thought about it . And I've been actively trying to do that , actually posting things . When I post videos talking about the campaign I'm running right now or whatever , I don't really go back and listen to it . I just I'm like , yeah , I got the stuff in there that I wanted and I just post it and I'll think about it , and that alone is kind of an exercise of just like letting it go . But you know , it's like in my mind .
Speaker 1I'm like this is this is looking past what I'm about to say and thinking about like what the internet of is that we're talking about . You know it's like I'll think about like what do I post about ? Like what do I think that ? What do I want to put out there ? That is me , and just like what I care about and like should I talk about Marvel and superheroes ? Should I talk about ?
Speaker 1Like music , gear , stuff and like the things that I'm nerding out on right now ? Like no one's going to care about that and do it ? Is that even the audience I want to attract , I want to attract and like behind that , behind those words , is no one's going to care about what you actually care about . You know no one's going to get it and everyone's going to think that you're dumb for putting it out there . And so it's just so funny to like face that , that inner narrative myself , and I think what I'm afraid of is allowing people into that space on accident , like complete strangers on Instagram . You know it's like what if I accidentally let everybody into that narrative and I am allowing them to tell me if that narrative is true or not .
Speaker 2To what if you actually let people see who you really are and they reject it ?
Speaker 1Right , yeah , and I think that that's and that's something , and that's part of it , for sure , and I guess part of it is to like trying to figure out how it all works together . But you know , like what is ? What is the what is ? What kind of musician do I want to be ? That's also the question I'm asking . You know , it's like I'm going through a phase where I don't want to .
Speaker 1This is a perfect time for me to technically redefine myself as a musician if I want to , because no one really knows who I am yet as a musician . And so it's kind of like I'm like , even though I've been doing it for my entire life , I'm basically just starting from the beginning , and so if I was going to not do what I've always done , now's a good time to not do that . And so I've been kind of thinking through that and like trying to pull in new styles and influences and you know , just experiment . And I think that you know you were talking about in the you know the conversation in the episode . We just did like talking about letting your inner child come out and play . I got together with two of my friends and we played together as like a trio band for the first time . This is the first time I've played music since probably I played with you in a band , like think outside of like church .
Speaker 1Wow , like think about that for a second , like how long ?
Speaker 2that was a long time ago . That was like 2011 .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think I did play that the nightfall festival once with Cody and my brother and another guy , and so that was one time that we did it , and so we did rehearse and do that one show and it was great , but I mean that was still probably 2014 . Yeah , it was 2014 . It was , and so that's how long it's been . It's been almost 10 years since I've played with other musicians in a regular context , just for the sake of doing it , and they both you know so , ethan and Cody both wanted to get together with me to try to like figure out how to like play my songs and just back me up and make it a band situation , which is awesome and great and I love that . But you know , I'm going into it trying to figure out like what does that even mean ? And like I also want their input and I want it to just be a thing . And so what I found was is that , you know , with the help of some alcohol and some legal weed , I let for the first time and I don't even know how long kind of let that inner child come out and just play and we were able to all just kind of like hang out for two or three hours and just play music and all we did was work on two songs the whole time , but it was like finding that groove . We would spend 10 minutes on one section just to find the groove and it was incredibly life giving . And I didn't expect it to be as life giving as it was , mostly because I didn't have to do anything . Like they were , they were working on bass and drums , so I just kept playing the same quarters over and over again , and very much so in a similar way to how , like , like charismatic churches play like the same song over and over again for 15 minutes and it somehow becomes moving . This probably goes to show just how like facilitated that is .
Speaker 1I did it with one of my songs and it literally like you just start getting kind of enveloped in that moment , and it was I could just be , it was I was insanely present , like wildly present in that moment and and able to just like focus on what was happening and not care about anything else . And so I was like , well , I want more of that , like that's what I want more of , and so I've got to figure out how to do that more and and how does that bleed into every other , every other thing in my life , like I don't know , I don't know how it does , but and how do I talk about that ? And yeah , other than like what I'm doing right now , is anybody still listening ?
Speaker 2I don't know .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , I don't know , maybe there's some things that we I mean what I learned from the last few weeks is there are things that you can do to start practicing letting the inner child out , and for me it was playing with my kids and actually like letting them lead . That's really just being along for the ride . That's really hard to do Because there's so many things where they want to do something . I'm like , oh , that that's a terrible idea . Or like you know , that's not going to work , or that's going to , like , get really messy and then no one has to clean that up afterwards and just you know so many things .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's the adult you speaking Exactly , but when I when I make , I'm intentional about letting them lead and just following along , and it's almost like a game of improv . Yeah , I found myself in those moments like really truly playing like a kid .
Speaker 2And it's the most amazing feeling and I didn't . I never really experienced that before and I can just get like lost in the moment . You know , playing imagination with my kid and it doesn't happen all the time because I don't usually let myself in that , but when I do and I experienced that it's , it's almost like its own form of being high , like it's , it's so it's hard to explain and but it's , it's , it's magical , I love it .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's just a nice little serotonin release or dopamine release , Probably yeah .
Speaker 2I don't know what's going on chemically . I just know that like , if it feels like a high it's something .
Speaker 1What's going on probably ?
Speaker 2I think that it's like I , I can . It disengages my analytical brain . Oh yeah , you know , because I'm not , I'm not like constantly in this meta position of analyzing the situation .
Speaker 1Right , Meta position . I love that meta position . Sorry , I was in meta position .
Speaker 2But you know that's like we spend so much of our time in that place , oh my god .
Speaker 1Yeah , you know , we're always in meta .
Speaker 2And and like .
Speaker 2This is this is the magical thing about children and this is this dub tells really well with this whole conversation of not really having , like , the full gratitude of what you have and understand , appreciating what you have , because when you like , really just stop and take your agenda out and your own stuff out and just sit with your kid and let them lead yeah , they take you to magical places and it is amazing and they can teach you so much .
Speaker 2That's the thing that I think that we miss out so much on in our society and just the way that we're just so busy and everything is structured and so much about the way that society is structured like is trying to separate us from our kids . Yeah , whereas , like , if we and a big part of that is like it doesn't give them , us the opportunity to learn from them , yeah , and we think that , like , what , what did they have to teach us ? They're just little kids , but holy shit , man , when you let them teach you , it is profound and we miss out on that so much . And that was another big , big aha moment for me in this last couple of weeks is that I have been missing out on so much that I could be learning from my kids .
Revisiting Innocence and Connection
Speaker 1Well , yeah , it's like revisiting that part of your life that was so innocent and before before .
Speaker 2You had responsibility in adulthood and the whole whole , because , like kids , are only ever in the moment . Yeah , you know . So if you want to learn how to be in the moment , you got to , like you know , be a kid .
Speaker 1And they don't teach you .
Speaker 2They don't have a past to dwell on . They , I mean for the most part , yeah , like they're like . They're like cognitively , they're very much like reacting in the moment to things .
Speaker 1Well , yeah , they're still in like absorption mode . Yeah , they're still learning and taking in the entire world Absorption very like amygdala driven , yeah , and they don't have that .
Speaker 2They don't like . I don't think you at least on for males . It happens a little bit earlier for females , I think , but I don't think you actually like develop the cognitive ability for abstract thought until around 12 or 13 . Wow , yeah , Think about that for a second . So you can't really get very meta . You know in as you're when you're a kid .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Until you can cognitively develop that .
Speaker 1I wonder how that works in religion .
Speaker 2It's very literal , it's like yeah , which is dangerous it is . It's like . That's why it's so easy to get indoctrinated when you grow up in that stuff . Yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , because I mean just to even like , actually try to comprehend the thought , the idea of God , like forces your brain to start growing and connecting synapses where it didn't have it before .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I've learned that too . Just have to be very careful . With out you know , I'll be sarcastic or I'll say things and the kids take it very literally . I'm like , oh shit , that was , that was not what I meant . Please don't imprint that psyche for the rest of your life . Yeah .
Speaker 1Man , yeah , that's , that's kind of crazy . I yeah , it's kind of wild to think about because I mean , like , how often do we probably think an abstract thought for most of our I mean , I don't know , for a lot of our day , I mean , we're constantly thinking abstractly . That's probably . I mean , that's how we rebody language , that's how we insinuate , right , insinuate what , what meaning is behind what , what's in front of us with other people and how we kind of take in the world . So like , yeah , that's to be able to revisit , that is definitely a gift . Yeah , it is easy to kind of miss .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , I've . I've told Amy this multiple times in the last couple of weeks , but I feel like I'm falling in love with her all over again and with my kids . Like you know and I hated that feeling I that was the thing that was that was really starting to get to me was I could . I could sense this sort of disconnection and I felt like I was losing them and I didn't know what to do .
Speaker 1And I was just sort of drowning yeah it's weird how it kind of freezes you yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , I and and I was , you know I . I'm really thankful that I feel like I . I was sort of rescued last minute , you know before it was too late because they're . They're only this young for so long , yeah , and every minute could be like the last minute that they are in a certain stage where they do certain things , and it could be the last time that they want me to pick them up and hold them .
Parenting, Reflections, and Gratitude
Speaker 2Yeah , you know and and I have to remind myself that , like there's something that I I'd read at one point that I think about a lot of you know my , so my kids right now are three , five and seven , and thinking about my oldest and how old he's , he's getting and already seven .
Speaker 1That blows my mind , even just having you're thinking about your second child being five . Yeah , like I still see him . When I see him , I think of him as younger than five . Yeah , he still has an insane amount of innocence about him , though , too .
Speaker 2Yeah , and , and going back , like , like what . What would it be like if I could go back in time and hold my oldest as a baby ?
Speaker 2Hmm , right , I'm thinking , thinking about that and like when you will sometimes watch old like home movies from that time and and that's just sort of like a shimmer of what that experience was like . And so one thing that I I try to practice is , when I'm in the moment or , you know , I'm feeling like I'm not in the moment and how do I get into that moment it's thinking and get into that sort of playful , like gratitude space is thinking . What if , if I treated this moment as I'm traveling back in time now to be with my kids when they're young , how would I experience this ? And it would be even into like the hardest times to be the most beautiful moment , because I'm getting to experience them when they're young .
Speaker 2Yeah , and these moments are so fleeting and I think that that's , you know , that's the beautiful thing about life , and it's also the tragedy about life and we miss so much of it because we're caught in this meta position and we're never truly experiencing it because we're not letting ourselves connect to the people around us and to the moment and and we're missing like actually living the life and it and the and so much of it is just it , it , it , it happens in an instant , yeah , and it just is out of our grasp and we just completely miss it and and and . Then over time we become numb because we never experienced that joy and and that's what I realized I was doing and I was becoming really , really numb and I was missing out on so much of it and I'm like I can't let myself do that anymore . It's just that that will send me to an early grave .
Speaker 1For sure . Yeah , I think about to you , like how much like you know your kids are a part of you , so like , in a way , it is kind of like you're actually getting . You get the gift of the personification of your inner child and like getting to face that and live with that , and live with that person and interact with that person and heal those wounds , if you so choose , you know that is the hardest thing about parenting and I think that you don't really comprehend until you get into the moment is that you're not actually parenting them .
Speaker 2You're parenting yourself , you're re parenting yourself , because your kids are a mirror of who you are , yeah , and so the stuff that triggers you , that they do is a reflection of you in them and your own inability to deal with the shit that you that's all underlying under the surface , that they're picking up on and reflecting back to you .
Speaker 2And that's why it's so hard , because you have like either either you treat your kid like shit or you learn how to deal with your own shit , like that's basically how it works out and it's hard , it's really hard , it's a lot of work and it's a lot of pain and it's a lot of like you know , if you're really going to do the work , it's a lot of digging up . You know old stuff and and and learning , like treating the wounds and and and healing them , and it's it . It's really painful sometimes , yeah , but if you think about it like it's a real blessing and and that was a loaded term , but I mean that , like you know , it really is a like kids . Kids are a gift in that way , because you know you can get that in different ways in your life , without kids , I'm sure . But I think probably the most effective way is to is to have kids , because you know it's , it's just part of our biology , you know . Yeah .
Pets and Parenthood
Speaker 1I earlier today I was showing somebody a picture is actually the pictures you took of me and Madison when , I guess , was a tiny little puppy in her hand .
Speaker 2Yeah , only when we first got him .
Speaker 1I was showing people how cute he was as a puppy and I had the thought that I said out loud . I was just like , yeah , every time I look at this picture it just makes me want another one . And I was like this is how people have kids Multiple kids , yeah , I completely forgot about how terrible it was to have a puppy , especially him who , god Gus , was the worst .
Speaker 1But but yeah , I was just like I had that moment where it was like it kind of translates in a weird way and a small person , small way , a very shallow way , but you know , I mean it's people imprint so much of themselves into pets even that it's like it does kind of translate in a weird way because you feel like they're a part of your family and I don't know . It's kind of weird how having dogs has made me want to have kids . In a weird way , I think that's normal , yeah .
Speaker 1I mean it's . I mean , and maybe , and that's probably a natural progression for people in their twenties and thirties , cause it's just seemed like they tend to have like cats , don't do that to you , probably not . They don't , because they like take care of themselves and mostly act like they hate you all the time . So it's just like and they're really independent , you can leave them for days at a time .
Speaker 1They're going to be alive when you come back and your apartment won't be destroyed , probably , but like dogs are so dependent on you all the time yeah , especially in the early days right . Yeah .
Speaker 2And so you're . You're learning sort of that unconditional love of pouring yourself into something other than yourself , and not really like learning to do it without the expectation of return .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's true . Yeah , and my yeah . And like the love that I have for my dogs , I've had cats my whole life .
Speaker 2I've never loved a cat as much as I love my dogs and especially Gus , who I is by far the worst pet I've ever had .
Speaker 1He's the hardest to train . He is the most biggest pain in my ass . He just chewed up my favorite hat again . I got two hats . He chewed up the second one yesterday . Um , and I fucking love that dog .
Speaker 2Dude , I was like sleeping with Amy and the kids has been a game changer , and the thing that I didn't say earlier was like we so our house , the way that it's set up right now it's a three bedroom house and the the master suite . What , what should be the master suite I was using as my office because it's on one end of the house .
Speaker 2On the complete opposite end of the house , are two smaller bedrooms . One is where the kids sleep , and so we moved our bedroom into the one right next to that and then moved my office into the master suite , um , and , and so I had , uh , you know , we we'd set that up so I could at least sleep closer to them , and my motivation for that was thinking that , like Amy would come sleep with me , right , eventually , because she would be closer than one have to go , you know , all the way across the house . And , um , I , we , we completely switched everything around . So now the kids , I , and now my office is that tiny little room , it's a small stream in the house and it's also like right next to the living room . It's kind of in the middle of things . Yeah , so it's not . I don't have that sort of I mean , I didn't have a lot of isolation before , but like , especially don't now like I'm right in the middle of things , definitely not , like you did up in the attic , and yeah , that's true too .
Speaker 2And then , uh , and then the kids room is now like all of our , we sleep in it together in the master suite , and we did that one reason also so that we can move our king size mattress in .
Speaker 2So I actually had room to sleep . So we basically we have a king size mattress in the middle of the floor that Amy and I and our youngest , who's still nursing , is sleeping on , and then on each side of the king mattress is a twin , uh , that each of our other two kids sleep on , um , so they have their own beds next to our bed , and so we're all , so we're all in the same room together , right and um , and we're all sleeping together .
Parental Connection and Self-Reflection
Speaker 2And , um , two nights ago our oldest woke up at three AM screaming terrified , completely terrified , because he had a bad dream that an orangutan had come to suck all of his blood . So I guess it was a vampire and he was , like you know , he was kind of in that like delirious , half awake , half asleep mode , and so he's still solid in the room and it was like , oh , terrifying , it's like , uh , what's that called you awake but dreaming , oh lucid dreaming .
Speaker 2Lucid dreaming . Yes , oh the lucid , I don't know .
Speaker 1No , lucid dreaming is when you know you're sleeping .
Speaker 2Oh , right yeah .
Speaker 1Um , yeah .
Speaker 2Uh , sleep paralysis , Sleep paralysis .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , it's like kind of like sleep paralysis , except you're you're awake and you're still dreaming .
Speaker 2But anyway , so he woke up screaming yeah , and this was one of those things where , like normally I would not even hear that because I'd be in the other room , probably I might hear , but like I wouldn't be in there to do anything about it . And um , I woke up , got up , went and laid down with him . He was not settling , um , he was just . He was like I have to get out of this room . He asked me to go out into the living room with him , so I got up and took him out into the living room . Um , and he also had mosquito bites from , uh , from the from the day , so he was starting to get all itchy and stuff again . So I , like I treated his mosquito , I put this , like you know , mosquito bite stuff on it , um , and then I sat with him on the couch and we , um , uh , put on five , or I said seven minutes of the show that he's recently started watching , called lovely little farm , and lovely little farm .
Speaker 2Lovely little farm is the name it's . It's the most adorable show , Okay . Um and it's so peaceful and um , and because he wanted it to kind of like help him like pull , like , reset his shirt , yeah reset yeah , um , and we put it on and uh , and it did , it really helped him a lot .
Speaker 2And then , you know , I told him I was like okay , I made sure to say it comes second straights , because we weren't watching 30 minute episode . I was like we watched seven minutes of it and then , you know , we'll go back to bed and go to sleep . And then he was like okay , and then he did , and right afterwards he went back to bed , Um , but the whole idea was like I don't know , 30 , 45 minutes in the middle of the night at three AM . Yep , and I loved it . Yeah , I was . I was able to like be there for him , mm , hmm , and we kind of taps into like a weird five thing .
Speaker 1Too right , Like you want to be the person that people need sometimes .
Speaker 2Well , yeah , I don't know . I think it's more just like it was an honor to be able to be there for him when he needed me , yeah , and I felt a immense amount of gratitude in that moment , even though I was losing sleep , even though it completely interrupted my , and I was exhausted the next day , but it was . It's hard to explain , but it's like a weird sort of exhaustion where , like , I recognize that my body is . It's almost . It's kind of weird . It's like it's almost how I feel after I go home , after we record , where it's like I'm exhausted but at the same time I'm like wired because we have this connection , right , right , and this is a form of I was , a form of connection between me and him . It's like I was there for him and he told me the next day , like he's like daddy , thank you so much for helping me last night .
Speaker 2I really needed it . I was so glad you were there .
Speaker 1I was like I was so glad I was there too . Man , that's so nice , but it meant something to him .
Speaker 2And that was a big part of it too is like I realized I was missing out on so many core memories , yeah , and or worse , I was creating like really negative core memories , Sure , and like I just could not see it . And now I'm so aware of how I am because the reality is , as parents right now , especially in this , you know , the first seven or eight years we are creating their inner voice .
Speaker 2Think about that Shit that they're gonna have to like deal with for the rest of their life . Sure , and what am I doing to create that ? And I see it Like I see so much of the way that I treat myself in my head coming out and being like imprinted into my kids , especially my oldest one and he's a lot of that stuff is still coming out . I'm like , oh shit , like this is how this happens , and so like , how can I interrupt that ? And that's what I've been doing . I'm so thankful that , like I'm doing this now .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2While they're still young and I can help like walk that back and put a new voice in place .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2All right , one that is loving , one that is gentle with them and that's another thing that came out that Amy had reminded me of my . You know , this whole week was like be gentle with yourself , because I it's very easy to look back and start being myself up and all of the shitty things that I've done , yeah , and that doesn't help anyone , no , and it's just perpetuating the cycle , and so it's like I can't change that . And you know , I did the best that I could with the tools I had at the time , and now I have a different set of tools and a different perspective and I can make different choices and I'm choosing differently and yeah .
Speaker 2And I am , I'm moving forward in a different direction , and it just is , and I can grieve and I can also be grateful for where we're going .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , trying to have that like forgiving and affirming voice in inner voice is so hard but so powerful . It's crazy to try to rewire your brain . I feel like my pre-kid version of this is whenever Todd going back to when gotta say it in my hat I remember one of the first things and it was actually Madison who kind of helped me rethink and reframe . And I still get so mad sometimes because I'm just like why he like , why did you do this ? And really I should be asking myself why did he do this , instead of asking him Because one , he can't speak , but two like there is a reason . And then the reason is probably that he is anxious that we're never coming back Like it's just because I've watched him . It's so sad to watch him on the camera . And there's a certain point where suddenly he is just restless and no matter how much Sam is there and tries to comfort him , he just starts circling the apartment and getting really anxious .
Speaker 1And that's when he'll get up on that . He starts looking for things to rip apart . He'll pull a plant out and rip it across the carpet or whatever you know , and it's like or like whenever it's . You know , it's so sad to watch a dog throw up , you know , because they feel it's afterwards . There's such a physical representation of shame which is very strange to watch an animal feel such shame and you can just see it on their face , like they hide their face and their eyes from you like you're gonna be mad at them and so like that's been like a weird .
Speaker 1You know , I know I have to clean up this mess and it's disgusting and I don't wanna touch it , but like I immediately am just like it's okay . It's okay , come here . It's okay , let me give you love , let me give you affection . It's not sure if all she threw up on the carpet you could have thrown up on the hardwood , but that's fine . Always aims for the rug for some weird reason , and so you know , it's like , it's weird how in those moments I so often think of you and how you are with your kids , and it's like it's such a weird translation , but it kind of makes sense . It's like it's preparing me to be patient with someone other than myself .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's a huge point . Like you know , you brought up being anxious about not knowing if you're ever gonna come back and I have to remind myself and actually Amy helps me remember this sort of stuff , she's really great about that Like one of the things that can be frustrating is like I'm trying to get out the door , I've got somewhere , I need to be , I'm late for an appointment or whatever , or I need to get back into my office for like a meeting or whatever . Right , and our oldest especially , like panics and is like if I'm going somewhere , he's like can I draw you a picture ? Will you take one of my stuffed animals with ? Like can't give you another hug and a kiss , like , and there's a very real fear and anxiety that like I'm never coming back Because you know he can't like cognitively . Yet you know reason about that .
Speaker 1It's very yeah , like what's happening in your day when you're not around him . Yeah , exactly .
Speaker 2And so there's some level of anxiety there of like I'm not going to be around forever . And you know , part of it probably comes from experiencing his grandmother dying when he's young . Part of it probably comes from me , like emotionally checking out at different times and not really being there in the moment and all of that and but he doesn't have the tools yet , the analytical tools , to be able to like process that and reason through it , and so it just , you know , it just sort of like comes out in these ways that are very , very inconvenient . Yeah , and I have to remind myself that like he's actually seeking connection and assurance in that moment and I can't give , I can provide that for him . And yes , it is not convenient and yes I might be late , but what's more important , like that I'm , you know , not five minutes late for a meeting , or that I show my kid that I care about them and that I'm with them and they can depend on me . And you know , and so many times I've made the wrong choice .
Speaker 1And that's hard and it's crazy too , because most of the time your work understands like , at least I feel like most people just get it . They're like , oh , it's your kids yeah .
Speaker 2But you know , but we tell ourselves like I , you know , I have a job . Like I have a responsibility and like I'm trying to , you know , and part of my way of showing them that I love them is actually taking my job seriously and you know , and doing well and I'm providing for them right , yeah , but all they want is for you to take them seriously .
Speaker 1Well , all they want yeah , all they want for me is to connect with them . Sure .
Speaker 2And they , you know , again , it's like they have no idea what it means to have a job .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2They think I just like stare at my computer screen all day , which is true , yeah it's true , it's really true . And they're like you know , why can't you do a staycation , like every month ? Or why can't you know , why can't you take off early today ? Like why do you have to work , why do you have to go have this call , like what you know ?
Speaker 1all this stuff ? What is PTO ?
Speaker 2Yeah , or you know they , and you know everyone that I work with is just like a picture on the computer screen anyway , so they have no concept of that , especially , yeah , and so it's really like you know that's a whole other layer of like having a remote job , working from home and having little kids versus you know doing . But even that , still like it's abstract thought they don't understand . Like where's daddy going ? Like what is he doing ? Why is he doing it ? Why isn't he here with me ? Is he ever coming back ? I don't know .
Speaker 1Like you know , I used to wake up extra early for my dad when he would leave at like 730 in the morning to go to work and I would watch him pull out of the the , the watch him out the windows . He pulled out of the driveway and he would always it was flash his lights .
Speaker 1He'd hit the brakes a few times , showing acknowledging that we're watching him leave , and so that was always like in , in , in , I think , back during that , like when you're talking about all this and how , um , yeah , like that's just . That was like , for some weird reason , that always made me feel better when he was leaving and me , and then it became me and my brother both doing it and we'd always wake up and we couldn't go back to sleep and couldn't be okay for the day unless we watched dad flash his lights at us when he left and so , and of course , then he worked night shifts . Sometimes . Then it was before bed , he would do it , and so , and then we would literally wait for him to come home and hide and have to try to scare him . That was always our thing , and he never was scared and always knew where we were . We never , we never got him , but , um , but it was always the thing we did and uh , you know it's like it's funny , but like that's the things that you remember always you know .
After Thoughts on Play and Creativity
Speaker 1and then I remember there was a what was it ? Uh , um , the the chompers , I think is what it was where he would put my brother on his shoulders and use his legs as chompers to try to get my head and chase me through the house . My mom hated it because it riled us up right before we went to bed , but like that was the most exhilarating and amazing thing ever and then one time one time he did it with me .
Speaker 1I was like I want my turn and I was bigger than my brother . Obviously I'm three years older . He was like all right , we'll try it one more time Did not take into effect the consideration that there was a part of the den where the ceiling came down lower and I was taller than my brother and he just whacked me right into the , and I remember that too .
Speaker 2Oh , that reminds me we um , we have this game we play called Ninja Baby , and so we take the youngest he was he's actually just like almost about to turn three , yeah and I hold him in front of me and then I take his legs and I go hee-yah , and I like trace his brothers around , yeah , and he just like cackles the whole time . He just loves it .
Speaker 2He loves like me treating him as basically like a ninja nun chucks and like chasing his brothers around and it's exhausting because I have to like hold him and try to do it . I could only do it for a few minutes . But , man , like they , they love that kind of stuff . It's just like the simple things of of play and you know , building Legos , building hot little tracks and like playing Hot Wheels , even just like our , um , our five year old . He's so imaginative and one of the things that he loves to do is look at his catalogs . So he has like Lego and Playmobil , like toy catalogs that Amy took the pages from cause he was like they were basically deteriorating , and she took the pages from them and put them in like plastic sleeves and built this little like book for him that
Speaker 2has all of these you know toys in it and he'll go to different pages and he'll like take the toys and characters and like start playing out scenes with them and stuff , and so he always wants me to do that kind of stuff with him . And when I , you know , engage with him on that and actually let myself play , like he really shows me how to play and use my imagination and stuff like that , and it's such a magical time and like that's and it's so simple , like you know , but it's there's been so many times where I've said no to that or I've like I try to do it , but I'm like thinking about work or thinking about other things or thinking about how I'm like it's so hard for me to engage in the moment , right , and then beating myself up for it and like not actually being there and all I have to do is just like stop all of that .
Speaker 1You know , just say yes to the moment and to the situation . I don't know if we got that across as much in the actual like conversation for the episode .
Speaker 2So , hippopotamus , I think you can actually take most of this and just interject it , like towards the end , and it would work . It would work just great .
Speaker 1I don't think we need to because we've literally recorded another episode . What I was thinking is , this should just be an unedited version of in . I'm telling you , we can just call it after thoughts and name the episode and we can do this . We could probably do this after every episode that we record and have an extra episode . That's like literally not technically part of the season , like we could release this just on our community and not do any edits for anything .
Speaker 1Just post it Okay , and then one of us do as I can and it's like , and that's just for our community , the whole community , not just premium , it just like cause that's separate from like going to a podcast Cause , then that gives some , that gives the community something that's special for them .
Speaker 2Oh , I like that , yeah , and then we can also like promote it in the main podcast and say hey , look , it's something for follow up to this . Click here .
Speaker 1Yeah , if you're curious what we realized we missed , or like what we thought about after the episode ended this is it . I like that . And sometimes it can be 20 minutes , sometimes it can be an hour , like it doesn't matter . There's no like putting no constraints on it . I think that's a and also no edits and no edits . Yeah , don't have to do music , don't have to do anything . Okay , cool , I'm down .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1So and like I think that's fine and the and it's also kind of fun cause you get to hear like behind the scenes , to some degree , we're not putting out the polished version of ourselves , it's just like whatever . Oh yeah , you know , it's kind of like what we do for after hours , except instead it's just after thoughts , cause there's no video . All right , okay , I like that . Yeah , cause I mean this is this is really us hanging out . You know , it just means that we , just , we , just , we just recorded it .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's true . We didn't really have a . I didn't . I didn't have any point to talking about anything after the conversation was over .
Speaker 2Yeah , you notice how like it flows so much better when we don't have the pressure of the pressure of what like needing to do an episode .
Speaker 1Yeah , cause we don't have to release this , all right , but I'm going to cause it was great . Yeah , yeah , I agree it was fun . Yeah , after thoughts .
Speaker 2After thoughts , after thoughts , after thoughts , after thoughts .
Speaker 1All right , we're having an hour . Turn it off , okay .