After Thoughts: Therapy

[A.I. Generated 🤖] Embark with us on an intimate odyssey through the transformative landscape of therapy, where my own revelations in internal family systems and EMDR unearth the capacity for profound emotional shifts. As my co-host and I peel back the layers of our healing journeys, we pave the way for a dialogue about the milestones of mental wellness and the power of therapy to unlock new possibilities within us. From gut-wrenching triggers to chest-level manageability, our personal tales of therapy are not just confessions but testaments to the resilience and adaptability of the human spirit.

Imagine your living room hosting not just conversations but also your fitness aspirations, all while your guitar waits patiently to channel your day's tensions into melodies. In this exchange, we explore the seamless integration of creativity and well-being, from chic dumbbell sets to the cathartic strum of a guitar string. Join us as we navigate the barriers to creativity, the fatigue of the daily grind, and the euphoria of artistic release. Each song, each note, is more than sound—it's the echo of our journey through self-expression and the puzzle of songwriting that challenges and satisfies us in equal measure.

Dive into the raw authenticity of the independent music landscape with us, as we share the glitz-free trials of self-promotion and the persistence it requires to keep the dream alive. We're lifting the veil on the music industry, discussing the evolving role of record labels, and examining the tenacity needed for live streaming success. With each release, each stream, we measure the impact of listener engagement on our show and beyond, celebrating the collective embrace of music as both a passion and a profession. So tune in, feel the rhythm of our stories, and perhaps discover a beat that resonates with your own life's soundtrack.

Transcript

Therapy and Healing Journey Discussion

Speaker 1 0:01

All right , all right , here we are .

Speaker 2 0:03

We're back .

Speaker 1 0:05

Another afterthought .

Speaker 2 0:06

Another afterthought .

Speaker 1 0:08

The night before the episode releases .

Speaker 2 0:11

Yeah , had some good feedback about that , though you know .

Speaker 1 0:14

Some of these yeah that's true .

Speaker 2 0:16

We've done one . We've posted one right when it was a wide effort .

Speaker 1 0:20

I think that's the conspiracy theory one . I think it was the only one , yeah .

Speaker 2 0:23

Okay , there are others . Are there , I think so yeah .

Speaker 1 0:26

Maybe we should . Just , I think I'm enjoying doing it right before the episode , just in the fact that it gives us time to marinate a bit . That's true .

Speaker 2 0:38

And it's kind of like hanging out more than it is , more than the real podcast is yeah that's true , because the real podcast is like there's work to it , whereas this is like us sitting in comfy chairs with comfy clothes on and just hanging out , kind of like the high fives episode . Yeah , exactly .

Speaker 1 0:53

Which is our lowest performing episode ? I think maybe ever . Yeah .

Speaker 2 0:58

Well , I told you so . For me on that one , yeah , but we're just going to move right on past it into therapy . So that's today .

Speaker 1 1:10

Tomorrow's episode Yep , depending on when you're listening to this , so I listened to it yesterday , yeah , and it was kind of cool because we did that episode right around the time when I restarted therapy , you know .

Speaker 2 1:28

Yeah .

Speaker 1 1:30

And that was like five months ago , something like that .

Speaker 2 1:33

God , yeah , it's been that long . It's crazy .

Speaker 1 1:34

A long time . A lot has happened since then and it's been a wild ride . Therapy ended up being way more effective for me than I anticipated . Yeah , I think I've told you before my therapist is doing the internal family systems in combination with EMDR , right , and it's very effective . And I found myself , like you know before , when stuff would happen that would trigger me . It would just be like real deep down , yeah .

Speaker 1 2:18

And then I think what happened to me last summer which I realized that we talked about in this episode , but the episode where , like , we mentioned it , but the episode where we actually talk about it , I guess was recorded prior to that , but it's not coming out till like the next to the last episode in the season , and so and we've mentioned this , so we've basically been alluding to this what happened to me last summer , but we don't actually talk about it until the next to the last episode in the season , and so that happened to me last summer and just kind of like broke all , like it was like an iceberg that broke into a bunch of pieces and then it was like there the therapy has been a process of just sort of like slowly working all of those pieces out of my system , like through my body , and so now , when stuff triggers me , rather than like feeling it deep down in my gut , it's like more in my chest and like I'm slowly moving its way up .

Speaker 1 3:14

And I've noticed that . I've noticed there and that's the weird part is like when I'm doing the work , it doesn't feel like I'm actually doing anything , it just feels really hard . You know , this is like very vulnerable and I'm just , I'm , you know , in real time , kind of reliving some of the traumas from when I was a kid and stuff and it you know . And when I'm done with it , it's like you know the feeling that you have at the end of a workout , I guess , but like an emotional workout .

Speaker 2 3:47

And for sure .

Speaker 1 3:48

But it doesn't feel like anything's changed , you know when I'm done with it . And then I'll notice , like you know , days , weeks later , slowly , like subtly , stuff has shifted .

Speaker 2 4:02

Yeah .

Speaker 1 4:03

Where it's almost like the wound has been festering all this time and the therapy has gone in . It's like the process of going in and cleaning out the wound and it's really painful , yeah , but you're cleaning it out and what you're doing is you're creating an environment to let it heal Yep , and it will heal itself over time . Yeah , and if you , if you , you know , clean out the wound and and and . So I've just been doing that , you know , over and over again , for different things , to the point where I went to therapy last week and the session was really just like us recapping and celebrating all the wins and realizing we need to go .

Speaker 1 4:42

You know we can scale back , go from weekly to bi-weekly , because the last couple of sessions have really just been a lot of that kind of stuff and I don't , I don't feel I've been . I've been trying to like get really honest with myself and check in and like I don't feel anything deep down that still needs to be addressed right now , like , which is huge Because I've never felt that way . Yeah , and you know . So I still have my days and stuff , but like , even when I'm feeling down , I don't it's not the same level of despair that I would have , when I was , you know , really depressed .

Speaker 2 5:22

Sure .

Speaker 1 5:23

I'm going to tilt this mic a little bit .

Speaker 2 5:24

Yeah .

Speaker 1 5:27

And and so it's just , it's a huge win . It is , yeah , and I was . I was not anticipating it to work that quickly , I guess and you know I'm sure there's still things that I'll work through in the future but I feel like I've I have done the work that's necessary to like really see healing and to really like move forward .

Speaker 2 5:53

Yeah .

Speaker 1 5:55

And you know now it kind of opens up all kinds of possibilities for me , you know .

Speaker 2 5:59

That's true . Yeah , it's been so long since I've been in therapy but I've actually been thinking lately about how I think I might try to start going again next month . But I will say that just the little bit of therapy that I was in last this past year obviously there was some huge , you know , nuggets of wisdom that I did not know where they like being being diagnosed on the spectrum was super helpful and but also there was certain just the , I think just the process of of going through and looking inward and working that out with another person that is Skilled in navigating those those waters right navigating that kind of conversation and giving you tools along the way . It's funny how just the you know the few months of therapy I did , I think , helped me . We didn't even talk about religious trauma , but doing that , going through that process with other things , with family dynamics and things like that , has helped me in so many other ways and has , I've noticed , when you're talking about how it like the Tram traumatic , like triggers when you , when you feel that the feeling works its way up here I was thinking about that actually and I can't remember what happened , but there was something happened , not the on-go where I .

Speaker 2 7:22

Something triggered me really , really hard . Oh , I remember it was my mom talking about what happened to me at the Church downtown and how it affected her and she . There was first things about about it that she had not gotten over and and , and how it affected her and that I didn't even know about . I didn't even know that this , some of this stuff happened , I know like because it was new information . It was triggering me again in a way that I wasn't ready for , but I felt it in my neck . It was like somebody squeezing my neck , and I was like that's interesting , and I was hyper aware of it . It wasn't in my stomach usually would be like my stomach turning and like feeling like really nauseous and like feeling it down in here my gut , and Definitely felt it like up in here , and it was a pretty quick , fleeting feeling . It didn't like wreck my day .

Speaker 2 8:06

I did end up writing a song about it , though , which I sent it to my mom , and she was like this is about me , isn't it like ? Yep , it's like you always wanted a song , mom , that you but yeah , and I mean it's like I've been doing this February things . It's like a song a day . So that's , that's what happened , that's what was on my mind , but I Was able to process how I felt , decide Kind of where that had a place in my life and then turn right around and write about it in a very clear-headed way and In a way that was not about me , which was interesting , I think , because I think it would be easy for me to dwell on it .

Speaker 2 8:47

And even the songs that I've been doing lately that have been about religious trauma , it's getting harder and harder to write about it . I'm wanting to process through it . I feel like there's some other songs that I could find some inspiration for there to go with this project I've been doing . But I'm also kind of over it , like emotionally and in a good way I think that I'm just like I've had a hard time writing , about writing songs .

Speaker 2 9:06

Like in the last , this last end of this month of Writing songs , I'm like I don't know what else to write . I don't have any bad things to write about , he said . I'm like trying to find an influence the outside of myself because I'm like I mean , life's pretty good . How many songs can I write about ? Life's great , you know , before everybody's like shut the fuck up . We don't listen to songs , to be happy , and so , yeah , I don't know it's it's a strange feeling to kind of also feel that way , where it's like I know I want to go back to therapy .

Speaker 2 9:36

There's some things that I definitely want to and need to work through , I think , in different aspects of my life , but Overall it isn't like there's anything like plaguing me right now . I feel pretty good , have a good relationship , my family , you know , good relationship with Madison , with friends , like don't really have a lot going on right now . That is like at the at the surface of bubbling up . But you know , there's always that deep-seated stuff that I hadn't got a chance to work through and , especially in light of what I did learn in therapy last Time , I think it'd be interesting to kind of work through it in that way .

Speaker 2 10:07

But but yeah , I kind of , I kind of relate to you on that . It's like you know , I mean , and even you know Madison , she goes to see her therapist , like as a case-by-case basis . At this one she was going consistently for a long time and then when she kind of worked through a lot of stuff , she was like she'll go months without going see her and then she'll just call her up , be like hey , you know a lot of stuff's bubbling up . Can we just meet ? And I think that's kind of a good , healthy way to think about it too . Sometimes , once you get to that maintenance level , it's just kind of like you know , it's totally fine to just be that way .

Speaker 1 10:33

So yeah , yeah , I , I Thought about that , I'm . I decided to scale back to every other week for now because I I want to make sure that I have time set aside so that if anything does come up , I can address it quickly . Yeah , versus if I don't have that scheduled , there's gonna be a sort of cognitive block there to go like oh , I can do that later . I don't know it's not that important , like that sort of thing .

Speaker 2 11:02

That's true If it's like a set date in your calendar you have to go . It's just gonna be a part of your calendar , yeah and I figured .

Speaker 1 11:07

I figured that's probably a good approach for me for a little while , until you know , I feel like it isn't Okay so I swear this , yeah the mic is . I was gonna say the mic is low .

Speaker 2 11:22

I was . I've been watching it slowly fall and I'm like how do I address this ? Every episode of after after thoughts is gonna be us having to stop and do something to .

Speaker 1 11:32

Production wise how long ?

Speaker 2 11:33

this lasts , alright . I'm not wearing my wireless headphones this time , so hopefully that won't happen . Yeah , um , we're wearing Therapy .

Speaker 1 11:47

Yeah , we're super happy and nothing's wrong with our lives .

Speaker 2 11:50

Yeah , I wouldn't necessarily say that much , but but yeah , I don't know , I know . I mean I actually have a lot of shit going on . Yeah , I mean it doesn't affect me the same way , right , yeah .

Speaker 1 12:01

Yeah , that's the thing , and you know I still have bad days . Kind of had one today , yeah , but I feel like a rebound a lot more quickly .

Speaker 2 12:12

Hmm , yeah , I think finding and like trying to find those things in your life , that kind of are good tools to have in your tool belt , toolbox , whatever you want to use About kind of Ways to pull you out of those situations , and those things also can be helpful .

Speaker 2 12:34

Like I know that if I'm I've learned that I don't like to go to the gym , but I need to work out , and I don't need to work out , for obviously I need to work out for physical reasons , right , but I need to work out when I'm feeling stressed , when I'm feeling anxious , like there's a lot of things that like that's such an immediate alleviate , like it immediately alleviates that pressure . And so that's why I got this little dumbbell set sitting here in the floor and it's just out . I always leave it out because if I look at it , I wanna do something with it every time . And that's how my brother is too , and that's why he would have a whole set of dumbbells and stuff just sitting in the middle of his apartment always , and every time he'd walk by them , he'd do a set , and so like smart , yeah , and so he was constantly working out every day .

Speaker 1 13:21

And it's how he

The Benefits of Music and Creativity

Speaker 1 13:22

got really big there for a while . If I did that , my kids would kill each other . Oh yeah , no , you can't , you can't do it .

Speaker 2 13:28

But well , they do have this one , that how we keep getting this Instagram out of this one that's like hidden dumbbells and it looks really and it's like it doesn't look like a set of dumbbells , but they're all different colors . And then you there's like apparently , an app , of course you know that has all these things that go with it or whatever that you can subscribe to but you can literally have it as like a decorative table . That's what it looks like , with wood on the outside and everything . And you open it up and it's all of this . Your full weight set , Okay , and it's like 200 bucks .

Speaker 2 13:54

I was like that's not really not that bad because weights are expensive , and so thought about maybe getting that eventually , because the gym that we have at this apartment complex is lacking , it's not inspiring , it doesn't make you want to go there , and so , yeah , but that's one thing and I've and just having it out honestly and like having my guitar out all the time . You know , it's something where it's so crazy how sometimes I'm sitting there and I'm just feeling , instead of doom scrolling , instead of doing whatever it is , between whatever I'm doing with work , whatever I can just pick up my guitar and play for like 10 minutes and I feel so much better . I know you've experienced a little bit of that too .

Speaker 1 14:28

Yes , and I did that today actually , and I man that just reminded me . So I bought that sweet ass telecaster yeah .

Speaker 2 14:38

Which I still haven't seen . I think you can come over and play it .

Speaker 1 14:41

So , and I was playing it like every night , and then I rearranged my office a little bit , yeah , and then discovered that there wasn't a plug where I thought there was , and so to like I can't really get all my pedals plugged in and the amp and stuff at the same time and you don't have an extension cord . Well , I mean , I , everything else is plugged in , is the thing I'm running extension ? You don't have a power strip , so work with me here , okay , so I can give you something out of my closet .

Speaker 1 15:14

I love it this is the point I have this in my head of like you know , God damn it , this stupid thing . Is it dropping ?

Speaker 2 15:20

again . Yes , sorry , I didn't mean to say that . Do you want me to do ? You want me to ? You want me to get up and do that ? Just , I'm sorry , I couldn't figure out a better way to say that I could . If you get up and you like really turn that , it'll turn and lock , all right .

Speaker 1 15:35

I'll work on that . No , I got it , I got it .

Speaker 2 15:38

Okay , you want me to get up and do that . All right , you got it .

Speaker 1 15:48

Yeah , Okay . So I had this problem and then I was like I had a solution in my head and the solution was to buy one of those pedal power supplies that have multiple things and oh , you don't have them on .

Speaker 2 16:05

Like a pedal board , right ? Oh , okay , right , you need to build a pedal board if you're going to play them . Yes , for sure .

Speaker 1 16:11

I mean , I only have three pedals but the so because I had this solution in my head . It's like I couldn't do anything until I did this one thing . But then I kept forgetting to do this one thing , and so I had put my telecaster in its case and kind of put it under the under this piece of furniture in my office , telling myself you know , I'll just , it'll just be there for a couple of days . Right , it's been like a month .

Speaker 2 16:44

Yeah .

Speaker 1 16:44

I haven't been playing it Out of sight , out of mind .

Speaker 2 16:46

I know , that's what happens .

Speaker 1 16:48

I just realized like how stupid that is , yeah , and then . But I have been playing my acoustic cause it's out and the whole point of buying like the amp that I bought and everything was like so I could play electric in the house .

Speaker 2 17:02

Yeah .

Speaker 1 17:02

And I've not been doing it . I really love playing the guitar , so I need to get that back out , and and and . Literally I could just put a power strip into the extension cord and I would have enough power there , and I don't know why I , like my brain , didn't put that together . That's so stupid .

Speaker 2 17:20

Yeah , yeah .

Speaker 1 17:26

Anyway , anyway , why were we ?

Speaker 2 17:28

talking about this Things that you can do to alleviate stress and anxiety yeah .

Speaker 2 17:34

Or you know , or down times , trauma , like yeah , music's definitely helped . That helped me with that . This in this month it's been a whole different experience , I think , because of making it a practice to have to record , write and record something every single day is not nearly as stressful as I thought it would be , but it's exhausting , like emotionally exhausting and so . But then there's that , you know , there's been like five or six songs that I'm like these will never see the light of day and that's fine . And even even with those , I still , when I get done with them , there's a certain level of a high that you feel from writing something and completing it and recording it where you can listen back to it and share it with people .

Speaker 2 18:18

And there's something about that that is really really hard to explain how good it feels . And I I always try to tell Madison this . In the other day I was walking , I was really pacing her in the living room trying to think of like okay , I know how I want to say this thing , I don't know how to don't know exactly where these words need to go , and you know , it's just a puzzle , trying to figure out the pieces , and I think she finally understood , because she loves puzzles , she's very passionate about puzzles .

Speaker 2 18:44

And she , she just finished one , otherwise she'd be doing it right now while we're doing this in the other room . And so I think she finally got it . Because she was walking around I was like I was explaining what I was trying to say and everything , and she's like what , if you just say it like this ? And then I was like , yeah , perfect . And I just used that line and she was like , oh my God , I just helped you write a song . That feels so amazing . And I was like , pretty great , right , you just wrote one line .

Speaker 2 19:07

Imagine writing a whole song , like it's such a good feeling and she finally gets it now , but yeah , it's , it's a it's it's , it's very cathartic in that way . But it's kind of kept me on a musical high all month Even . And then , of course , the last like five songs of the month have been just a whole other high before . I'm like , oh , I'm actually like it's like digging at the very bottom of the barrel of creativity when you're like . You're like I am empty , like I do not want to do this anymore , and that's when I've actually done the best songs which I knew would happen . Mentally , I knew it like you know what's the word I'm looking for , like cerebrally .

Speaker 1 19:45

Is that a ?

Speaker 2 19:45

word . Sure , you know what I'm saying . Like you know , analytically , objectively , yeah , and analytically I knew that that's how it would go . It's happened that way before . But but yeah , it's , it's just real hard to get there . It's just like it's like running a marathon you know how it's going to feel at the end when you complete it , but in that first one third you know two thirds of the race it's real hard to want to complete it . I say that never having run a marathon , but I can understand analytically and logically .

Speaker 2 20:16

You know , I'd like to be in a place where I could run a marathon one day , though I was thinking about that recently .

Speaker 1 20:22

Yeah , I've always said I'm a sprinter , not a marathoner , and like like in general , as a metaphor .

Speaker 2 20:30

Yeah .

Speaker 1 20:32

Because I can't do any one thing for very long . Yeah , but I can go real hard on something for a short period of time . Sure , and and I prefer to work that way , and I've thought , I've thought this before . Like you know , I've always had that story about myself what if I became a literal marathoner ? You know what if I actually ran a marathon and change that dynamic that I have ?

Speaker 2 21:00

You know , he'd be a great person to talk to you about that . Who is that ? Our friend , katelyn , oh right , who is a pro marathoner runner .

Speaker 1 21:09

I didn't know that he was a pro marathon runner . He's like sponsored and everything . Did not know that , yeah , wow .

Speaker 2 21:16

He has a whole like pro kit that he wears and the whole deal . He's been doing it for years . But yeah , like I was talking the other day because I'm like trying to get back into running and was trying to explain to him how much I have a really bad shin splint in my left leg and it's just really painful so , and like I've been trying to figure out a way around it and it's like it's so painful that it's causing like the inside of my foot to like cramp up and hurt really bad , because it's like I think I'm compensating , trying to like unconsciously moving my weight around .

Speaker 2 21:47

And he was like he was trying to explain to me . He's like it's all about shoes , like you have to be willing to spend a good chunk of money on really good running shoes and you won't have that problem . And so he was trying to explain it to me and we were talking about , and then he's like and then just running technique . Like there is a whole technique behind it . And he was like we should just get together , I'll show you how to run . He's like I did it for my friends and now they all run marathon . So I was like all right , let's do it , I would get in on that yeah .

Speaker 2 22:10

Yeah , I would be down and so , especially now that it's warming up and stuff , it's like you can just go run outside . But yeah , I don't know . I think there's it's funny how and kind of going back to the therapy of things you get into things that you never thought you would get into when you find out how it makes you feel . I think , if that makes sense .

Speaker 2 22:33

Yes , and so , like , just like you're saying , you've always thought of yourself as a spinner , not a marathoner , but what if you actually ran a marathon ? It's like what if you actually became a runner , what if you ? Because you never thought you'd run , you know , you hate running . I hate running until I do it , and then I love it , but the lead up is so bad and it's like there's something about that that makes me want to be a runner , because it's like I want to just do it , because and be able to do it because I didn't think that I would yeah , you know , and there's something really , you know , I guess cathartic in that way too where it's like you start thinking about all the things that you have always told yourself you couldn't do , and then you just decide to do

Trusting Yourself to Follow Through

Speaker 2 23:11

them .

Speaker 1 23:11

Yeah , and the thing that makes this makes me think of is that question that you can ask yourself of you know what ? What would you do if you knew 100% you could trust yourself to follow through , no matter what ? And what you're talking like what we're talking about here is essentially like proving to ourselves that we are that person , because when you , when you can do that and show and you trust yourself in that way , it opens up so many more possibilities in your life . You know , because I mean , I think about this a lot like there's so many things that I don't do because I tell myself that I wouldn't be able to stick with it , and so , yeah , this is written here F , and so it's just an interesting thought experiment to ask yourself , like you know , pretend I followed through on whatever I set my mind to , what would I actually do ?

Speaker 2 24:19

Yeah , I mean I've seen that in little bits and pieces in my life , I guess . I mean I wasn't a podcast producer . Three years ago .

Speaker 2 24:26

That's true , yeah , yeah , it's like I've said that enough times on this , on this overall show , but I it's it stands to . You know it's still , it still is , it still makes a point because , like now I do it so much and so comfortably from following through with it so much in the first couple years , that like I got 100% do this as a career , like if somebody gave me a job , somebody's like you want to be full time podcast producer and do these shows and do less stuff . And we're like , yep , when do I quit my job ? You know it's like I'll come do that now . And so there's , there is something to that , I think , because , like , how much different would our lives be if we decide that the thing that we , I don't know , because there's on the flip side of that , it's like then you can start asking yourself what are you most afraid of doing and why ? Because are you afraid that you won't follow through , or are you afraid you'll fail at it ? You feel , you know , I think that that's something that kind of has plagued my life for sure , my entire life , and and I still have that feeling a lot I've been having to face a lot of more like different kinds of fears about playing music and are doing music in general Lately , where it's like when you start getting into like the depths of all of the little pieces that go together for music to try to make anything successful .

Speaker 2 25:48

It was like my song just came out this past Friday and the amount of steps taken on the day of the release to do to try to make it successful and maybe it doesn't even work is like a crazy amount of things . Like going all these platforms , sending out the song to all these , like media outlets and bloggers and like other online radio , radio things and stuff , and like trying to and you have to craft a pitch for that thing and for all these different things . And you know there's all these things you have to do on all the streaming platforms and things to update and if you want it to be like , you know , a solid release that looks professional , and so just that alone , not including making the song , producing it , mastering it , all of the things that go into that .

Struggles of Independent Music Artists

Speaker 2 26:35

And and we're just I'm just talking about one song .

Speaker 2 26:38

It's so easy to get bogged down in the I don't know what I'm doing part of it and and get intimidated by it and go . Do I really want to do this ? Like , is this really what I want to do ? And I think that's just because , like , and I truly believe that , regardless of what like personality you are , if you're an artist and you want to be an artist , if you want to be a music artist , say for , for this example , if you wanted to be a music artist , probably most people think about when they think about being a music artist , what they think about doing is getting to write your own songs and then record them while somebody else produces them and mixes them and masters them , and then you hand it off to somebody else to make sure you all get distributed and made and , you know , manufactured or whatever , and send out to all the things and you get to go around and play music and play and get when's my tour ?

Speaker 2 27:29

Great , I'll be there , you know , and you show up and you get to play and you do and you do your thing . You do the thing you love the most , and then you leave and you go do it again somewhere else and and hopefully reap the benefits of getting checks in the mail . Yeah , Is the most ideal form of that .

Speaker 1 27:47

That is not even remotely how it goes no , that world does not exist for 99.9% of musicians .

Speaker 2 27:52

Yeah , and it , and I would say now it doesn't exist for anyone ever , and it hasn't for probably a decade , I don't think , since streaming exists and the the amount of independent artists there are , and the the less you need a label for things other than distribution .

Speaker 2 28:11

That's really the only reason people sign on the label now is just for distribution and so and for like loans , essentially , is all that really is for , though like we'll give you this loan and you can pay it back over this many years . But that's like they're becoming more and more obsolete because people can release music anywhere and do it themselves . But the problem is there's still like a certain level of gatekeeping that happens with all of that , and I've had , I've , you know , I used to talk about like all the things that it took to live stream , right , like I've talked about that at some point . If any anybody listening , if you've been with us for a while , you've heard me talk about a couple of years ago with like all the things about live streaming , to the extent that , like it only took you one day last week to be like are you , what's the point of live streaming ? And I'm like you're right .

Speaker 1 28:59

Why am I even doing this ?

Speaker 2 29:02

It's not worth it and it really isn't the return on investment . On live streaming , I can do it for fun . If I'm playing video games , I'll do it for fun , but I think for music I'm only going to do it for , like , special things , you know . But I can get really obsessed about something and learn about all the parts and , like you know , get really obsessed . But I have to see at some point you have to see some kind of progress forward and if you just continually hit dead end , no matter where you're looking and no matter what you're doing , it's really hard to keep going and I think that's kind of where I am right now

Navigating the Music Industry Journey

Speaker 2 29:33

.

Speaker 2 29:33

It's like I know that I have these songs that I'm super proud of and that I love and I want to be out in the world and then , when people hear them , like I got the best , the biggest and best response for anything I've ever released from Good Bones this past Friday . I mean people sharing it everywhere and talking about it online and people sending me messages and DMs and texts . Being like this song is actually incredible and I love it and I've been listening to it all day and I'm like that's amazing . I've never had that before and yet I still am having a hard time figuring out how to get it out there to all of the things , and it's like surprisingly difficult . In fact , I have a question for you after we're done with this . Don't let me forget I'm hoping you know how to do this thing that I don't know how to do , and so , like that , I've started to find all these different platforms and things . It's just there's so many steps and there's so many things and it's so hard . It's it's it's you . There's things that I feel like need to be a sprint and it's actually a marathon .

Speaker 2 30:28

You have to let go bits and pieces at a time and I have to learn everything I can about this one thing so I can do this one thing and then see how that interacts . You know , how does that go into the overall ecosystem of how everything works ? And I think I've learned a great deal over the last like six months on how to do this one thing , how to do all you know , just release music is so like full time job and yet still so far away .

Speaker 2 30:53

So , like the last few days , I've just been like feeling real drained about it , just being like how the fuck do you make something successful ? It's so hard . Granted , it's not going to happen overnight , and that's the other thing too is it's like you got to space out your singles because this song might not be heard on a lot of platforms for like two months or at least , and that's if I'm constantly promoting it . So you know it's , it takes time and so that's I don't even remember where I was going . All that . That's just been what's on my mind lately , but it's definitely been a practice in patience and belief in myself that I can do something , even when most days it feels like I can't do it .

Speaker 2 31:36

And I don't know how to do it , and so that's been . That's been kind of a definitely a big challenge lately . That's taking a lot of perseverance to try to push through , and I guess I'm still kind of in the middle of it , obviously .

Speaker 1 31:48

Yeah , but if you think about what you just said about podcast production , right , right , you felt that way at the beginning of it . Now it's a breeze , sure , and so you know what you're doing .

Speaker 1 31:59

If you stick with it , even if you don't see the results that you want right now , you're making this easier for you , right , and then that means you can do it more and the more you do it , the more likely you're going to see better results , right , and so it's just one of one of those things where you're you're proving to yourself that you can run the marathon .

Speaker 2 32:21

Yeah , yeah for sure . Well , and you know , it's like something as simple as recording covers and releasing them . That used to be really difficult to do , but now entire platforms that I release my music through now offer services to be like this is how you obtain all the licenses for cover songs and it's super easy , really . Yeah . So it's like really easy to record a cover , get the license for it and release it on Spotify and everything . So that's how people always do it , so quickly and so much , and so I'm kind of thinking a lot about that . This next year , too , it's like I should probably be doing entire acoustic piece of covers and just releasing them as singles too , in between everything , and you know there's so there's like stuff like that .

Speaker 2 33:02

that's just helping me create more content to release and try to be more serious about it , I guess , because that's the thing too . It's like it's really easy to get discouraged looking on , like to talk in Instagram about all these new artists coming out with all this amazing stuff and having all of this amazing promo , all these 30 second videos of all their songs and talking about it and like getting all this traction . And then you look , if you dig into the surface at all , you realize , oh yeah , they are 100% they . They may have been independent at one point , but they are not now . They're just pretending to be independent . They actually have a label behind them making all this shit for them .

Speaker 2 33:36

And so you know , as we all know , instagram is not real . It's definitely not real with that stuff either , right ? And so that's they like to make you think through this brand new artist and they are , but they got help . They have a whole management team behind them . So that makes me feel a little better and discouraged at the same time , because it's like , well , they're not doing it . They're doing , they're not even . They haven't even made it yet and they still already have help .

Speaker 2 33:58

So it's like , how do I get to that level by myself ? You don't , I guess . But yeah , so I'm just trying to like navigate those waters , and that's been like my thing outside of everything else in my life that I've been doing . Is that , because that's the thing I've always been the most afraid of , that's , that's the thing that I didn't think that I could actually do or that people would actually like me doing it , I guess . And so you know , that's the thing that I'm trying to see through and just see what happens with it , but also like in the back of my mind , with the goal of making it a real thing , and so just trying to be realistic about it , to not like quit my job and put Madison into a spiral of anxiety and depression , and so , yeah , it's , it's kind of crazy , kind of trying to navigate those waters , for sure . And then you know doing things like a day job and this podcast and all the other things , although the podcast kind of gets looped into the music thing .

Speaker 2 34:55

Yeah because it's all kind of creative work that I enjoy doing . I don't know if I think I told you this a few . There's a few days where I was doing podcast episodes and I was like I can't write a song today , this month , and so I just posted the music that I made for the podcast episode as my quote unquote song of the day and thought that was pretty funny . Some of the other artists were like that was pretty good instrument you did there . What was that for ? And I'm like it's actually for podcasts . I was doing that instead . But yeah , so I don't know , it's it's . It kind of all falls in line in the same thing , I guess . But yeah , I just had two cups of coffee . That's why I'm talking so much .

Speaker 1 35:35

I was wondering you need to talk now . I'm done .

Speaker 2 35:38

I like tired myself out talking just now .

Speaker 1 35:40

I was like , no , this is a good change , I'm just right .

Speaker 2 35:43

Yeah , it's true .

Speaker 1 35:45

Yeah , yeah , I am feeling that attention again where I have a ton of creative energy right now for the podcast stuff , and I've actually written an entire month's worth of social content . I have it scheduled on Twitter just because I don't have to create images for it yet .

Speaker 1 36:07

So that's the thing that I'm working right now is getting the images done so that I can schedule it all on Instagram and Facebook . But I like it's been energizing me and I've been enjoying it and I'm like like starting to resent the time that I have to spend doing my job because , like , yeah , I feel that , like you know , this is always that tension there , but I don't want to quit my job because I have done that before and you need money .

Speaker 2 36:38

The stakes are much higher right now .

Speaker 1 36:41

Yeah , the last time you quit your job .

Speaker 2 36:42

You had one kid .

Speaker 1 36:44

Yeah .

Speaker 2 36:45

And then you have three .

Efficiency and Creativity in the Workplace

Speaker 1 36:47

And so , you know , and then I was trying to figure out a way to like reduce the amount of energy I put into my job so that I could have more bandwidth to do more of this stuff , yeah , and then found out today that , you know , I'm basically like tripling my workload and so I'm not happy about that . Yay , tech company world right .

Speaker 2 37:12

Tech industry .

Speaker 1 37:13

Yeah , I'm not really happy about that and I want to just work on this stuff .

Speaker 2 37:21

Yeah .

Speaker 1 37:22

Got lots of big plans , but the cool thing oh , this is the other thing about all of this is , you know , since we're talking about therapy yeah , so we're talking about therapy you know , one of the results of going through this process and the healing is that a lot of those blocks that I'd had are keeping me from going after things has , you know , mostly dissolved .

Speaker 2 37:48

And .

Speaker 1 37:48

I'm actually doing things now that I've been wanting , like for the podcast specifically that I've been wanting to do for you know , basically the whole time , yeah , and I'm actually making like movement on it and we're going to see the fruits of that in the next few months , you know , and yeah , like I'm , it feels really good because it's it's like I'm showing myself that it's not , I don't , I'm not just the idea guy you know like . I can actually take the ideas and make them happen . Yeah , and I love that .

Speaker 2 38:23

Do you think the you were talking earlier about how the feeling , the good feeling you get from creating all this content , I wonder ? It's probably a little bit the content for sure , but do you think that the feeling that you're getting of making all this content is maybe not the content but it's because of the system you created and , like every time you do , that you realize how well the system works ?

Speaker 1 38:47

That's a , that's a big part of it .

Speaker 2 38:49

It's like pat on your back kind of situation , because that's how I would feel .

Speaker 1 38:51

Yeah , it's all . It's all kind of integrated because it's that with the topic , with because I'm actually writing about and learning about things that I'm very interested in , yeah , and that I , you know , I'm like I'm creating the content that I would want to read and and so I'm learning while I'm doing it , and then I and then I know that it's going to resonate with other people and and it's going to help other people like me , yeah , and I think that's where a lot of the creative energy comes from . But the system definitely is a is a key component of that , because there is an elegance to it where I figured out a low effort way for me to do this Right , it removes the resistance .

Speaker 2 39:36

Yeah , that's that's something that I felt in , even in the podcast workflows like there's certain things that cause resistance . I can feel that resistance of like making video content and stuff where it's just because I don't have a system for it , really that makes it easier and may or makes it feel just like smoother and fluid and more efficient . I feel like , because it's not efficient , I just don't want to do it . Yeah , cause it's tedious . Yeah , I'm such a high efficiency person which I know you are too and I don't know if that's a five thing or just a nice thing , but either way , it's , it's , it's a real thing and I think that you know , anytime I create a system for something where I'm like , oh my God , this works , then I want to do that thing all the time because I'm so proud of the system . I'm like , oh , look at this thing working , just working and it's not .

Speaker 1 40:17

It's not just being proud of it , it's also there's when you create something that is elegant and using it it's like scratches this itch on your soul , like it just feels so good to , and even when you're not the one who created it , but when you find , when you find something that , like , elegantly solves a problem of yours , elegantly solves a problem of yours in a really easy way and efficient way . Yeah , it's just like I just want to keep doing this cause it's just like works and it's so beautiful and , like I , I love that shit yeah .

Speaker 2 40:58

I'd say it's probably the easy way to get into , like software engineering .

Speaker 1 41:01

for that reason , oh dude , let me tell you , man , I have I have spent late nights building things and like tweaking things just to make something elegant . And I remember , I remember God , what is going on . I remember like early when I first started learning JavaScript I wasn't even really much of a coder at that point and I was working for this software company and billing in Washington and they , it was so political it was , yeah , we were in the marketing department , so we weren't allowed to call ourselves developers , like literally we were not allowed to . That's super weird . And and I built this tool that for from marketing emails that allowed anyone , like any of the marketing assistants , to create one and whereas before they were all getting funneled through one person who , like hand coded them . So these are like not , these are HTML emails , right ?

Speaker 1 42:05

And this was back before . You know these ? These are email builders all over the place , Mailchamp and all those . Yeah , but we were using like an on premise , like in our like local server , yeah , Like , like that kind of software .

Speaker 2 42:19

Right .

Speaker 1 42:19

It wasn't very user friendly , and and so I was trying to find a tool that would allow us to do this . And then I couldn't find one , but I found one that was kind of like it , but it didn't you know , and I was like I bet I could build this myself , and so I just started figuring out how to build it , and and there was this one part of it where you know , you pick a template and then you had drag and drop modules , and I I coded it so that when you went into the , like the mode where you can drag and drop modules , all the modules , like slid apart , and then when you close it .

Speaker 1 42:55

they slid back together Right . And I sat there for hours , tweaking that fucking thing , yeah , until it was just like so buttery , smooth and perfect and adjust the right , you know , and I and then , and I was so proud of that , like not , but not just proud of it , like it just felt so good . Every time I would use it and they would just sort of slide apart gently and then slide back together and you just hit the button over and over again , watching them collapse .

Speaker 2 43:20

I did .

Speaker 1 43:22

And the funny thing about that , like I , I saved . I did it mostly nice , at weekends , and I saved the company like tens of thousands of dollars which we sent , you know , like millions of emails in a year .

Speaker 2 43:35

Sure .

Speaker 1 43:36

And I was like individual emails . We were like we were . We were sending out , like , like you know , 30 , 40 , 50 , like marketing emails Right A week . Yeah , because we had so many like sub brands and all this stuff . It was crazy .

Speaker 2 43:50

Mm , hmm .

Speaker 1 43:53

And and I got caught , the time it took to do that down like by like 75% , wow , that's crazy , yeah . And then allowed , allowed it to be like parallelized , parallelized . Sure , parallelized , yeah , parallelized , because like multiple people could do it Right , and I almost got fired for building that .

Speaker 2 44:18

Really , because it's too efficient .

Speaker 1 44:20

No , it was well , so it was the . The CEO called me into a meeting and , like , had me explain what I built and then told me that the only thing that saved my job was because I did it on nights and weekends , and then I had no business building because I'm not a developer .

Speaker 2 44:44

Oh , and and uh did you tell him how much money you saved him ? He didn't care because the host .

Speaker 1 44:56

This is such a crazy company because he so he was the CEO and he's like an ex Microsoft guy , yeah , and his brother was the VP of sales and his brother was like a like marketing and sales genius and he had made millions of dollars in like the early internet , by selling , um , like sugar-free chocolates on mine or something like crazy like that , and so they were always competing with each other and so , like you know , I already hate this yeah .

Speaker 1 45:29

The CEO , like you know , built this big house on the hill this big hill with this view of the city and stuff and then , his brother came in and built one up higher on the hill . Oh my God .

Speaker 2 45:40

Like that kind of thing . I already hate both of them . I don't even know them and this was .

Speaker 1 45:44

this was the dynamic that we were working in , and because I was on the marketing side , um , I was not allowed to cross the Cavs or climb up into the ivory tower .

Speaker 2 45:54

You were working for the brother , yeah .

Speaker 1 45:56

And so it was . I was basically in , like you know , a pissing contest with with the two brothers and I got on the bad side of the CEO because I did something awesome that helped the company

Inefficiencies in Workplace Systems

Speaker 1 46:09

. Is that company still around ? Uh , yes , but neither of them are there .

Speaker 2 46:14

Good riddance . I hope that they are doing nothing now . Yep Can't , can't survive in that kind of situation .

Speaker 1 46:22

God that's .

Speaker 2 46:23

That's the worst I mean . And it's so hard as a five . I don't know how we've gotten into this world , but we're just going to go with it now , because that's what I'm thinking about . It's so hard as a five being in a company where you see so many inefficiencies , obvious and obvious things , to fix Obvious solutions right in front of our face . Nobody gives a fuck . We just going to do it the hard way and make everybody's life harder . I'm experiencing that in my job now . I'm like there's an entire group of people in our home office doing who knows what the fuck , and I'm like you're making all of our lives harder for like not keeping things in stock the way you're supposed to and not keeping things , like not running the warehouses the way that you should to help all of us succeed , and it's like , oh my God , I could do this job . And what's what's worse ?

Speaker 1 47:11

is when you are asked to help solve the problem . You build an elegant system , right , that solves the problem efficiently and nobody uses it . Oh yeah , I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me .

Speaker 2 47:28

I don't know if I ever I don't know if I ever talked about when I was working at the the wine shop it's , you know , the biggest .

Speaker 2 47:36

Well , I'd say it's probably one of the most successful shops in town . So , like the huge volume , a lot of people going in there , a lot of people , a lot of big purchases , that kind of thing . And then when COVID happened and I was there during that whole situation , you know , we had basically turned into a curbside service , so nobody came in the store at all and the entire store beautiful store turned into a warehouse . Essentially we filled all of and so , like everybody was like in this kind of panic about like what do we do ? How do we do this ? And I was like , well , I love puzzles , I have worked in warehouses and I've worked in situations where we have a what's that called A line drive-through . No , well , that too I've worked in drive-throughs . But the assembly line , the assembly line , assembly line systems and , like coffee shops worked in Starbucks for years . Like you know , there's things where it's like you pick up these little bits and pieces , where it's like you know how everybody can work together to make this work in the most efficient way with the least amount of work for each person . And I created this system within a couple of days . I like sat down , like thought about it and was like , okay , I think I can do this . So I laid it all out . I was like this is how we'll do it . We just don't even worry about taking things out of cases , just cases and lines . We'll do all this stuff here and We'll have people who run and get the stuff and in fulfill orders . You have somebody taking the order at the door , giving it , putting on a sheet that I made and it's like an order form . You set it on the in a certain place in order based on how , how many you know in what order they took it , because , like we didn't have like any kind of computer systems , like we'll just do this , like literally old-school , writing it on paper . So , like , put it on the order . We have runners to go and grab the stuff and put it in boxes , and then I put lines on the counter , like in on the bright colored tape , and you like put the order with the card right there and then they'll do . You have somebody at the register ringing it all up and then they slide it forward and then the person who is at the door handing off the orders and just doing things . They'll take it out to the person with the thing , get the card information . You know it's the whole deal . I Got so much pushback from this people being like this is the worst .

Speaker 2 49:45

Why would we want to do this ? This is so much work . This is not how we do things . Blah , blah , blah . I'm like how are we gonna do it Otherwise ? Like how , how ?

Speaker 2 49:52

And it wasn't for the the managers , I think , were on board . It took me a while to get them on board , like they didn't want to do it either . Then they were like , okay , I think this actually will work , but then none of the employees I mean I had someone like throw things at me and threatened to be like in in every way should have been fired actually for the way that they acted and Just gave me so much grief about it . I'm like this is . I just was asked to do this . This is the system , this is . I think this is the most efficient way . I Took two weeks and then everybody was on board and everybody realized they were not working nearly as hard as they ever were . We were getting orders and we were making more money than we ever did because it was more orders going out twice as fast . And then it was . Everybody loved it so much that when we started that one letting people back in the store , nobody wanted to do it .

Speaker 2 50:36

They wanted to keep doing the system that they had already been doing and it , by that point , had forgotten who made the system like it was just like it was the system that everybody used . But I always knew and Deep down , I was like you're fucking welcome . And so there's certain things I'm good at , you know , it's just like , and I know that I'm good at it and I and I'm like it's not the tout , it's not . It's not to like toot my own horn or anything . I just know that like there's , you know your strengths , you know your weaknesses , I know there's things that I'm not good at and so , like , I just brought all the Like collective experience that I had learned and put it into practice and was like here's a system that will work for this . It's maybe not the best system .

Speaker 2 51:16

I even decided that , like , what if we put like a menu of things , that's like a like specials this week of certain wines , spirits and beers Discounted a little bit to incentivize people to go only for those items , and we could light line all those things up at the front so that it's easier you don't have to run and get stuff , and people jumped on that shit so fast . They were looking for these menus on Instagram for our , our store and they would get all that stuff . They literally we could just like unload whole cases of stuff in a week , like 10s , 20 , 30 cases of stuff , and get it gone , and then we don't have to worry about anymore . It's not in the store and like it's gone , because that's obviously ultimately . You want stuff to leave and so Like incentivize people to do it . Then it was easier for us because we don't have to run all the store . All the stuff's right there in Line . God , they kept that shit up forever . Even after people came back at the store they tried to keep that system up and then people wanted to come in and shop and it was different . But yeah , it works so well .

Speaker 2 52:10

I still it's like a jewel , jewel in my own private crown that I like to think to myself like man , so nice to create an efficient system that everybody just jumps on board with . Because you know , I worked in churches for years and churches don't like to do anything efficiently , or , you know , take anybody's idea . So I pretty much just like spent 10 years being told no in churches constantly , no matter what I tried to do more efficiently , and now I'm in a job where it's kind of like that too , like that's my only gripe about this job , like I don't . I kind of I like my job . Now it's like it's not bad it's . I get to learn a lot about things that I'm interested in and , you know , basically hang out with my friends all day . All my accounts are people that I know and have known for years for the most part , and it's pretty great . The only thing is I , our entire system for doing anything internally sucks ass and so it just makes me mad all the time .

Speaker 2 53:07

Yeah , that would drive me crazy .

Speaker 2 53:09

Yeah they're actually about to change systems , at least the portal in which we place orders with . So it'll go from something that looks like it was built in Windows 98 To and doesn't have any remote . It doesn't . It's not even remotely user friendly and also fucks up all the time .

Speaker 2 53:24

I place orders , do things all time . Sometimes they just disappear into the ether and I don't know about it until it never gets delivered , because there's also no like checks and balances . I don't get notifications of things that I've placed orders and once it's gone , it's gone and I don't get to know about it because it's also a system in which the inventory sinks . It's not a live inventory . So sometimes I'll place things and it's in and then , oh , look at that , somebody else build it before I did and I didn't know , and now it's back ordered and I didn't know until a day after it was supposed to be delivered .

Speaker 2 53:52

So it's like that kind of shit happening all the time and I'm like it's not me , I'm not the bad bad guy here , I'm just the system . But we're about to switch to a system that's live inventory and it's literally just when I'm trying to fill stuff out for people . It's like dropping . You drop it literally into a cart and just check out in the cart that builds the order and it's live inventory all the time . Amazing , I'm so excited . It's nice to be here . So if anybody wants to ask that it's not an autoулient . If they want to ask something , they can just ask Lehrz , I understand that . All right , at that point I'm stupid . Get the shit down . Get the shit down and God , I need to go therapy just for that .

Speaker 2 54:52

Amen brother , Amen brother .

Speaker 1 54:56

All right . Well , I think we can tie a bow on this one .

Speaker 2 55:03

Talk to everybody , Zira , for no reason . You're welcome . Talk about inefficiency . We did not talk about therapy . I guess we kind of covered a lot of what we needed to cover in the therapy conversation .

Speaker 1 55:13

We had our own therapy , it's true .

Speaker 2 55:15

That is true , yeah , therapy of hanging out and just bitching . I mean , honestly , though , this episode is great , A therapy episode , going back and revisiting it , it's a great episode , so I hope you guys all enjoy it and , based on everybody's responses that we got , thank you , by the way , to everybody who gave responses .

Interactive Show Promotes Therapy Benefits

Speaker 2 55:33

Oh yes , Please keep giving responses . We truly believe it is the best part of this show . It is not us , but it is you that makes this show the best and we need these responses . I'm sure that you guys love hearing other people's responses , so if you feel like anonymously giving us your responses and we can try to include them , I would love that . Sure makes my job a whole lot easier , so we'll have more questions up this week , hopefully , sure .

Speaker 1 55:59

Ziya .

Speaker 2 56:00

Yeah and yeah , please give us your responses . But just judging from all the responses I heard for this episode , everybody's kind of the same , everybody's in the same place on therapy . So highly recommend therapy and I hope you guys get a lot of this episode and maybe it'll encourage you to try again . Try and find a therapist that works for you , because if you find one , it sure is nice . It definitely helps you work through things and be more efficient at life and that's a wrap . And that's a wrap . See you later .