After Thoughts
After Thoughts
After Thoughts: Emotional Intelligence
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In this episode of After Thoughts, we reflect on the emotional intelligence episode and end up going even deeper. From childhood trauma and religious guilt to songwriting and the resistance that shows up when we try to grow, this is one of our most honest and wide-ranging conversations yet.
We talk about why it's so hard to process emotions, the baggage we carry without even realizing it, and how much lighter life feels when we start letting go. We also share behind-the-scenes moments from launching Josiah’s new group coaching program, the fears it brought up, and the surprising freedom that came from facing them.
IN THIS EPISODE:
🔹 The weight of emotions — Why even ignored emotions still drain us, and how emotional intelligence lightens the load.
🔹 Obsessing instead of feeling — How Fives fixate on “solvable” problems to avoid unresolved emotions.
🔹 Social survival and trauma — Josiah shares how being a social pariah in eighth grade shaped his life—and still affects him.
🔹 Sex, guilt, and the church — Cody opens up about the complex relationship between religious shame and sexuality.
🔹 Letting go of the editor — Both hosts share creative breakthroughs in songwriting and writing by learning to stop overthinking.
🔹 Creating something that matters — Josiah reflects on launching Beyond the Mind, the resistance he overcame, and what it means for Fives.
Introduction and Technical Difficulties
Speaker 1Hello and welcome to after hours again .
Speaker 2This feels like deja vu .
Speaker 1We're recording for like 10 minutes , or we thought we were recording for 10 minutes , but apparently it froze a couple minutes in . So now it's like icing the kicker man , it's like we already were struggling because , well , like we , like we talked about on a previous- conversation uh neither of us really knew what we were going to talk about tonight .
Speaker 1Like normally , I you know , I we , we listened through the episode and normally I come away with that like at least two or three things . I'm like , oh yeah , I wish I'd said that or I told the story . Yeah , I got nothing this time yeah . And so it was already hard enough to sit down and record . And then we were like , oh , starting to get into it , and then realized , oh , it's not recording , I know .
Speaker 2We did have things to talk about . I know it turns out yeah Well .
Speaker 1I guess this might be a short conversation .
Speaker 2Yeah , we could just jump back into it . It's fine , everything's
Struggles with Emotional Intelligence
Speaker 2fine .
Speaker 1I think what we're starting to get at was that , as we're doing the work of trying to increase our emotional intelligence and overall personal development , that we talk about kind of going down in layers , but it's not an even layer , it's more like that it . You know , we talk about kind of going down in layers , but it's not a uh , it's not an even layer , it's more like uh excavation . So we're digging in a little over here . We're digging a little over here , right ? So when we think that we've um broken through to a new layer , it might just be in one context , like maybe it's just like at work but then it'll show up in our relationships , right yeah , and ?
Speaker 1and so it's important to remember that , and it's important to not , uh , not be too hard on ourselves in that regard .
Recognizing and Dealing with Emotions
Speaker 2Yeah , because emotions are exhausting , yes , regardless of whether you're you know dealing with them or not , they're , they're exhausting and they drain you . I think I guess in that way it's better to deal with them because you can get through them faster . They're not as draining for so long , cause I mean hell with the , with the right emotions , the right trauma that can be draining you for years . And so it's just like I feel like there's there's incentive to to grow our emotional intelligence in a sense that , like , we understand or at least can recognize emotions quicker and and deal with those things before it becomes some type of traumatic scar on a on us . But it's , I mean regardless , it's still draining and it's it's exhausting to try to deal with emotions and the closer it hits to home , the harder it is .
Speaker 2Um ,
Personal Relationships and Emotional Awareness
Speaker 2I think it's it's my relationships that are the closest to me that are the hardest for me to recognize and be self-aware in , because I'm so comfortable in them .
Speaker 2And , um , and just being in tune with my own emotions or how I'm making somebody else feel is really really hard for me , or how I'm making somebody else feel is really really hard for me , and I guess I can chalk that up a little bit to the tism being on the spectrum because , like , I mean , this might be a five thing generally , I guess , but my experience is that I'm always kind of not I have to be very aware and pay like special attention to other people's emotions and body language and stuff , or I won't ever see it like it has to be intentional
Body Language and Social Cues
Speaker 2. That's why I loved , as I talked about in this episode . Um , you know , I've read so many books on body language and stuff and it's I think that was not because I was . I mean , yeah , it was because I was fascinated in it , because I saw the show lie to me and I was like I want to be that dude .
Speaker 1Um , rip human lie detector short , short lifespan .
Speaker 2That tv show was , yeah , um , he's great for the first season and then after that it was terrible , yeah , but anyway , um , and so like there was some fascination there and the fact that he could read people so well or whatever , and so I think that's when I started reading , I read the books of the author that that show was based on , and so , um , there was a lot of information that came from this dude and then they just , you know , made it hollywood , but , um , but yeah , and so I I think it was a lot of . It was because I wanted to also like tap into that and be able to hyper focus , because if I don't , then I don't know , like your dog could have just died , and I'm gonna have to be like what's wrong . You know , we just won't recognize it in other people , yeah , and I definitely don't recognize it in other people , yeah , and I definitely don't recognize it in myself , like I will . I will lose my my mind before I like just acknowledge what I'm feeling and recognize it and know what needs to happen .
Speaker 1Yeah , oh , one thing that I'm really
Obsessing Over Emotions and Relationships
Speaker 1bad about I , I think I , I think I'm pretty decent at recognizing others emotions , yeah at recognizing others emotions .
Speaker 1Yeah , um , I'm really bad about remembering that , you know , okay . So , yeah , so , like something you know , um , someone can share something like you know , a family member passed away and in that moment I'm like , oh , you know , I can empathize with them and I can , yeah , um , you know , I can recognize that , like the what's going on emotionally right there , um , but then you know , a few hours later I might just completely forget that they're still dealing with emotions like , oh , yeah , you know what I mean sure maybe that , maybe not quite that extreme , but but definitely I have a .
Speaker 1You know , I , I just I , for I forget that other people are , are still dealing with . I'm like oh , this happened and it was , it was sad and and and then , like it moved on , like it only existed as long as you were experiencing it after that , one sleep , and it's a natural sketch .
Speaker 2You're just moving on . It only existed as long as you were experiencing it . After that , one sleep and it's an extra sketch . You're just moving on .
Speaker 1I mean , honestly , a lot of things are like that for me .
Speaker 2Yeah , same , it's like .
Speaker 1I just need to go to sleep and I'll wake up the next day and it really does feel like an extra sketch , and there's some things that don't work that way for me . Yeah , obviously , but I think probably most people don't work that way for me , yeah , obviously , um , but , but I think probably most people aren't like that , maybe yeah , they don't get that .
Speaker 2Like , not everybody's equipped with a factory reset every night .
Speaker 2I totally feel that way , though it's like I just just like I mean before I was also a , you know , strong believer in like , not believer in not going to sleep with unsettled or I won't say , don't go to sleep angry , because I don't think that's true , but I think that trying to not go to sleep , at least with your partner , not being unresolved things , just talk it out , get it over with , get to a place where we're both like on the same page at least , and then go to sleep because it's just . But even if we don't , I can wake up the next morning , fine . And so it's always that dynamic where it's like I'm the one probably stabbing on eggshells , like , or , yeah , trying to walk on eggshells like I don't know like , like , how are you feeling ? It's hard for me to .
Speaker 2I know something's off , but I'm not really sure what it is , but I have now forgotten , until it's re-brought up again , how I feel about that thing yeah because like I yeah , I mean , and I don't know if that's what you're saying but like I do hyper compartmentalize within myself where it's like I know those feelings are probably still there , but like distance and time to process , like I can in my brain , though sometimes just cut it off in out of necessity . Maybe it's just societal survive , survival that's happening there , but like it's like I don't I can get time for this , like I gotta work .
Speaker 1I have to do things , like you know yeah , I just feel this stuff , I think it's if , it's , uh , if , if , if it originates from the other person , then yeah , I'm that way . Yeah , like that's the thing , if it's , if it's something that kind of originates with me , like it's my own remote , originally my emotional response to something or something I'm dealing with yeah , then , um , I can ruminate on that pretty badly , um , and , and that's where like you know can be severe cases of getting in my head .
Speaker 1Yeah , which has like worked on so much where like that was one thing that I'm really glad about is that kind of stuff I used to ruminate for like weeks to months , to even like like why , years ? You have an example that you can share so , for example , this is a really stupid example .
Speaker 1Most things are out loud when they were in your head
Religious Guilt and Personal Growth
Speaker 1. So you know , I think we've talked about this in the religion episode . Like I used to be obsessed with God's will , oh yeah episode like I used to be obsessed with god's will .
Speaker 1Oh yeah , it was like I I would . I would go crazy just trying to like , you know , just worrying about like is this god's will ? Like , what should I do in this situation ? You know , how do I know what god's will is ? And like , yeah , um , but the thing that I obsessed over more than anything was who I was supposed to marry . Oh , ooh , yeah .
Speaker 1And so I would just anything that had to do , like I would meet a girl that showed interest in me , and I'm already spinning all of these wheels on the implications of what it would mean if we were to actually start dating and what marriage would look like and just like all the stuff .
Speaker 1Um , and no wonder you didn't date I . I know , right , yeah , that's wild , it was bad , yeah , and which is so funny because , like , when I finally did get to that point , it was so like intuitive that I didn't think about it at all . Right , but I obsessed over that was one of the things that I would . I would go through these periods where I would obsess over like certain things like that for months . Wow , and I couldn't just like . It was like something I couldn't just let go , and I think a big part of that was that I didn't . I had unresolved emotional things that I didn't know what to do with , and so I fixated on certain aspects of my life that I think , thinking back , doing this kind of in real time . I think part of this had to do with , like I , I looked at something like finding a wife as something that would fix this thing in me .
Speaker 1Oh yeah for sure and yeah and , and a lot of that was because I didn't . I , you know , I had trauma , I didn't know how to process , I had emotions , I I didn't know how to let myself feel yeah and uh , and I , and so , because I didn't know what to do with that , I focused on something else that I thought I could do something about , or something that I thought would fix those things for me . So yeah that's a . I hate that example , but that's an example .
Speaker 2I mean , I think that's relatable though , because I didn't have that exact experience , at least in my younger years , with like being in Christianity . But like mine was like like the sex thing Wait , which sex thing ? If you're a Christian , you know it's the sex thing which is the immense amount of like okay , I'm going to say two versions of this the immense amount of guilt that you would feel after having sex knowing that you weren't supposed to have sex before marriage .
Speaker 1Right , yeah .
Speaker 2I was a fairly promiscuous teenager and early 20s person , but in church it was , like you know , it was a no-no , but God knew he was there , you know , and so I know , and so , yeah , I always felt like , oh , it's like we can't let this happen again , which only makes you want to do it more .
Speaker 2And I think that that's the thing that I felt . But then here's the other version of it . I also think too , if I think about it too long , I will also be like , but also like did I really feel bad about it ? Or was I just obsessing over it , knowing that I should feel bad about it ? Because I don't think I ever actually felt bad about it , but it's still built like a complex you know what I mean . Like it's still like it's .
Speaker 2It's one of those things where it's like , as long as that happened even if I was like having sex knowing that I wasn't supposed to , but I didn't feel bad about it like this is . It's like it's so layered yeah , it's such an onion , you know , it's like so many layers . I it still ended up kind of fucking me up long term and then , like , when I was moving past all that , it then it then it became like hard for me to ever want to have sex , like I think it was like it was only when it wasn't , when it was wrong , and so that's the complex it gave me and so that it's like this , almost like a weird kink , you know , and so like it's way more exciting if it's wrong , but , like you know , I don't know , and so like that I have .
Speaker 2I've had to deal with that through my adult life of like , okay , I have to come to grips with that reality .
Speaker 1And you can only get off and you're being shamed in front of the congregation .
Speaker 2Midsong oh man , you know we get off and you're being shamed in front of the congregation . Mid song oh man , oh man , I gotta stop . Well , we didn't know where we're gonna talk about , but I didn't think we're gonna talk about this not , uh , not in my predictions , no , um , but I but I do think that it's like that . I remember kind of having moments of like not obsessing , but maybe a little Like it just constantly . I've only had one time in my life that I definitively had that experience and that was with the death anxiety and so where I had no , it was my first time I ever felt like I had no control over what I was going to feel or think and what I felt dictated what I thought . Feelings came first , whether I liked it or not . I've never had that . Well , that's not true .
Speaker 2I've had religious drama that I've talked about in the past , that definitely had that kind of feeling , but it was circumstantial . This was something that I conjured up in my head and then was just like in this loop for like a year , you know , and that was exhausting and I hated it and I was like I have to get over this . I don't know how , but I have to and eventually I woke up and after sleeping and it was gone . Um , that's also a lie . I still have it sometimes , but it's it's . It's much more manageable now . I don't like fall into a spiral . I let the thought happen , I feel it , I think about like , what kind of things that makes me feel ? I decide on like , okay , that's , that's where we are now , that's a little mile marker and I move on . Um , I don't get stuck in a spiral , but , like man , it's , it's . It's a rough time trying to
Navigating Social Dynamics
Speaker 2trying to become smarter emotionally .
Speaker 1Yeah , you know , a thing that actually did come up for me while I was listening to this was another reminder of just like how different I am as a social five , in the way that you know , you and Sam just didn't experience some of the things that I could obsess over in terms of just figuring out what is the social game being played here .
Speaker 2Yeah . I definitely heard that tension in the episode . It was like you're trying to explain all these things and we're like we have no idea what you're talking about .
Speaker 1And as I was listening to that , I was like man that has that's come up for me in just so many different ways in my life . And and even thinking back to . You know I was homeschooled until seventh grade .
Speaker 2Yeah .
Speaker 1God , and when I finally went to public school , I was so socially awkward , yeah , but I was obsessed with , like , figuring out how to play the game , yeah , and , and so I , you know , very quickly started to improve all of that . Um , and then what happened to me in eighth grade , after I moved and became a social pariah , like that , just like wrecked me . Yeah , and I think one of the big reasons why it wrecked me was because I , I couldn't figure it out . I couldn't . I felt so alone and I couldn't figure out what was going on , yeah , and I obsessed over it for months and months , and and and until I , like spiraled into this very deep depression .
Speaker 1Yeah , and and I think that was a big part of it was like I , because I'm I'm socially oriented and I was trying to figure out , like , where I fit , but I couldn't fit anywhere because no one wanted anything to do with me and , um , and and and I , I didn't , I couldn't see , I couldn't figure out what the rules of the game were , right , and so it just drove me crazy . It was a puzzle that I couldn't solve , on top of also being emotionally traumatizing and not knowing how to deal with those emotions . And so there's just this like whole , like perfect storm for me .
Speaker 1And and then coming like , coming out of that but but still not having the tools to deal with , like , the emotional trauma from it . Yeah , I'm even to this day I'm finding stuff out about myself that I still impacted by that experience that I had in eighth grade . Sure , yeah , and it's weird , like I don't like that .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , yeah , it sticks with you . That's kind of what I'm saying , Like . It's like there's still stuff that comes up in weird ways from childhood , from teenage years , from high school that like , oh my God , I didn't know that was still in there .
Speaker 2You know it's just like I don't . I'm trying to try to think of an example . I just feel like I , I , I randomly will . It's almost like I get a flashback to teenage years when I would feel some similar things . What you're saying , like you just don't really fit , fit in with anyone . You don't really have , like you know , a community , or like people that you're involved with , like that's a , that's an , that's a relatable feeling for me , because I feel like I've kind of carried that through my my whole life but , and not knowing how to kind of fix that , knowing that it's probably my fault , um , cause , you know , but did that make you super depressed ? No , and that's where yeah , that's what , that's what I was going to say earlier . I that that's .
Speaker 2The difference is it's like I've never obsessed over , like I've never obsessed over where I fit with the group . It's like , well , I guess I don't fit here , let's move on . You know , I just don't care , but I do care . It hurts sometimes , but like I don't , yeah , I don't . I never like I don't . At least I don't remember . I mean , it didn't affect me enough that I , it's like , stayed in my long-term memory or it affected you so much that you've blocked it up I think that I , um , I think I was more like um , I , I don't know .
Speaker 2It was more about the one-on-one connection . For me , and finding the people one-on-one that understood me the most , and usually because you know you're a horny teenager , like it's easy to lean into , Like you want that to be an intimate relationship , Like that understands you the most and like that's a really high standard to be putting on somebody a lot of high expectations and um and so similar to what you would probably do in your head beforehand about , like all these reasons why it won't work .
Speaker 2Are you like see it way ahead ? I'm just looking for like that , that , that like chemical connection , that you're like fed that this is what's going to happen . Now , like that , you're like fed that this is what's going to happen , that like you know the sparks or whatever , which I mean sure , like that happens . But like to determine everything on that feeling is psychotic . It's just not reality , it's not practical . And so , um , I I remember a lot of grief that I would give myself over um girls , like girls that I'd date or be involved with in some form of , and like it was just that was my turmoil . If I could go back to young Cody , that's what I would tell him . It's like just focus on , like the focus on the dreams . Fuck everything else . Like don't date anybody .
Speaker 1That's so funny because I would have given my my like uh go , I would have given my past self the opposite advice .
Speaker 2That's really funny .
Speaker 1I would have . I would have been just like dude , just chill out , Stop worrying about the future , just have fun , enjoy it . You know , enjoy different experiences , like it all kind of like will teach you something and you'll learn more about yourself . Because , like that's really the main goal , because if you really want to be prepared for a longterm relationship , get to know yourself .
Speaker 2Sure .
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2Well , I guess it's similar in that regard . There's a little bit of a Venn diagram overlap , I think , because it's like we're saying different things . But then there is that overlap in the middle where I'm like I didn't know myself at all and that was the problem . I wanted to discover myself through somebody else , and that was I mean saying it out loud it definitely sounds like a five thing to do .
Speaker 2It's like I don't want to actually like get to do the work I just want to like use you as a filter to look in on myself , you know want to make sure there's separation between me and my emotions .
Speaker 2Yeah , exactly In the form of a human being . Um , yeah , that always works well . Nobody gets hurt in that process . Um , but definitely , definitely did that when I was younger and just like it fed into all that feeds into , like you carry it with you to some degree and so it's like I don't know . I would never want to be , I don't want to have to be in the dating world again ever . I just don't think that's something I want to do , um , and I just I don't think that I could . I would never want to go back and experience that all over again
Reflections on Personal Development
Speaker 2.
Speaker 2I would definitely tell my younger self that , like , get to do the things you love and get to know yourself , but like you don't have a clue who you are . Right now , I promise , cause it took me and and church definitely stunted that in many ways . You know it's stunted Cause you're not allowed really to have your own identity and you or explore anything . You know , creating a space in my life where , like it was , it's completely okay for me to feel anything about anything like to to some degree . I mean , like I , there's so much judgment that happens in churches where , like people that are like other and unlike you , are just like not okay and um , and so it's hard to have perspective on anything , except for what , what you're taught .
Speaker 2And I feel like through my twenties I was , you know , I was in churches till like 20 , god , how old was I ? Like 26 , 27 , I guess , and so most of my twenties . By the time I got out of that , I felt I I felt felt like I was kind of starting over in life . It was really weird . It was just like I didn't know what to feel about anything and if I was supposed to feel anything about anything . It was really strange because when I stripped it all away , I stripped all of it away .
Speaker 2And it was just like maybe everything I ever thought was wrong , and so I just completely started over and was , like you know , maybe Satanists are cooler than I thought they were , who knows ? And I , yeah , I don't know it , just it stopped . I think I could have gotten there a lot faster had I not . There were decisions made in high school , mostly , I would say , out of laziness , or maybe I was afraid to jump out and do the thing , and so I guess , like in that regard , that carried with me all the way until this podcast started , which Monday is four years , by the way .
Speaker 1Oh , it is .
Speaker 2Cinco de Mayo .
Speaker 1Oh my .
Speaker 2God , that's right . Four years since we launched .
Speaker 1We should celebrate .
Speaker 2We should . Well , it'll be monday , we'll probably be here recording after thoughts um , yeah we should have margarita as well .
Speaker 2We record , yeah , maybe yeah , um , I don't remember what I was saying . What was was I saying ? Oh , podcast , yeah , so you know , I I always I've talked about numerous times on this on the show where , like I , you know , that was like my catalyst . You know , my inciting incident was jumping out and doing something unknown and being willing to just like do it . It changed my entire life , like from that point on , I started learning how to do that in every area of my life . But before that I was still pretty paralyzed on doing anything .
Speaker 2And and looking back on myself now I'm I don't want to say ashamed , but like disappointed in myself that I waited so long to take that first step out into the unknown without knowing exactly where my foot was going to land , because that was always the thing it's like . Well , I need to know everything about what I'm about to do before I can do it . And if we want to talk about the thought spiral that is , that's mine . I'm the most guilty of that one and and but now it's , like you know , four years later , that starts to happen and I immediately recognize it and stop it and say , okay , no , like there's always a way .
Speaker 2There's a way for me to do whatever this is I'm doing and learn along the way , and it's changed my , it's changed everything about how I do , everything , like my life , everything that I ever thought I couldn't do feels attainable .
Speaker 2So then it's very different and I lived most of my life thinking that everything I ever wanted was unattainable , and I lived most of my life thinking that everything I ever wanted was unattainable .
Self-Discovery and Confidence
Speaker 2So it's just , it's strange . It's strange how much that can impact you and impact , like , the confidence that I have in myself to be able to , like I actually give myself opportunities to impress myself and go , wow , I didn't even know I was capable of that , right , and so like , that's , that's a level of self-awareness I'd ever had before . Yeah , that's awesome , yeah , and so , in those ways , that's where the excavation I dug down deep right , like I've spent four years digging in these few spots and I'm like , oh man , I'm hitting gold . And then , like some things happen and I'm brought right back to the surface and I'm like , shit , I haven't done anything , I'm still right here back in the beginning . So , yeah , yeah , that excavation was a good analogy . I like that .
Speaker 1You're welcome , thanks , thanks for blessing us with that . Um , yeah , sometimes . Well , I was thinking about what you're saying . Um , it's about not jumping out yeah without you know , knowing exactly what's going to happen .
Adapting to Change and Overcoming Fear
Speaker 1I I don't know what it is that is different about me . That is is not been as big of a struggle for me in general .
Speaker 2It definitely shows up in certain ways , yeah , when you've always been a little ahead of me on that journey for a bit Well .
Speaker 1I . I don't know if it's if it's our subtypes different , or that you're an INTJ and I'm an INTP , or or it's just the fact that I I had to learn to adapt to a very unstable environment very early in my life and because we move so much Sure and I'm always getting like you know , as soon as I think I figured it out like my whole world gets turned upside down .
Speaker 2Right yeah , and .
Speaker 1I think I just got to the point where I kind of had that fear forced out of me just by constantly being thrown into completely new situations and not , you know , knowing what to do .
Speaker 2You're like . You're like nothing is certain , so why even worry about it ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I think that's a lot of it which you know . On one hand , it's , it's , it's a , it's a great experience and trait to have . On the other hand , um , I'm sure there's a lot of like anxiety and trauma that has been a byproduct of that , you know it just it shows up in different ways . Yeah , because the other thing is like , because of that , it's . It's taken me a long time to like even get to the point where I'm okay with the idea of anything secure and settled .
Speaker 2Ooh , yeah , and like I don't know , because you guys used to move and stuff all the time like every year .
Speaker 1I've moved 28 times . That's so crazy . Yeah , I'm 38 this year , 39 . I turned 39 this year . Yeah , and I've moved 28 times that is .
Speaker 2That's a crazy amount
Counting Life's Experiences
Speaker 2yeah , this is a side , this is a hundred percent of the side note . I'm just like derailing everything right now . But on the on the topic of counting things , um , I I sat down because I finally got so curious . I was like , how much can I actually remember ? And we were out with friends talking about jobs and how many jobs we've had , and I sat down and made an actual list . Yes , and I am at 38 jobs .
Speaker 1Oh my God , yeah , that's a lot , that's a lot yeah .
Speaker 2I've been wanting to tell you this for days . Dude , that's impressive . Yeah , I have a little bit of knowledge about a lot of things , like I know how to kind of do more things than you can probably imagine . Like it's crazy 38 jobs wow .
Speaker 1I mean I thought I had a lot . I've jumped around quite a bit , but not that much .
Balancing Multiple Jobs
Speaker 2Well , I mean , when I was working in churches , I had to have at least one or two other jobs , like there's been very few times in my life I haven't had three jobs at a time , jeez yeah . So I feel like , and yet it's like now I have one job and I do well , it's kind of three jobs , cause this is I consider this a part-time job for sure .
Speaker 2Like then , especially nowadays , cause we're just doing it consistently , no season . So it's like it feels it definitely takes time out of my normal days , like more regularly , and so it feels more like a part-time job now . But and then music has definitely become a job , like as I pour a lot of attention to that lately and then I have my full-time job . That's also taking up more of my time and I but I still am not close to the level of stressed and overworked as I have been so many other times in my life . My 20s were god . I had so many jobs in my 20s yeah I , I .
Speaker 1have I ever really worked multiple jobs at the same time ? I'm trying to think .
Speaker 2If not , you're a blessed human in this society or in this economy ?
Speaker 1Yeah , Well , because I got into tech pretty early , right , yeah , which is good , so I didn't have to deal with that . But then I had , like , really stressful tech jobs . So , even though I wasn't working multiple jobs , I was still working 40 to 60 hours a week , like yeah sure , yeah , you wouldn't have had time anyway . Yeah , yeah , well , at least with 60 hours , and then I , and then I , I , uh . I ran my own business for a few years and that was just like All consuming .
Speaker 1Yeah , it was very much all consuming . Um , yeah , so this is probably the most chill my life has been for an experience . I don't want to hear about it Like yeah all you do is the podcast .
Speaker 2Now my envy runs deep on that level . But yeah , no ,
Emotional Intelligence and Processing
Speaker 2yeah , I'm sure I mean , and that's what I'm saying Like even now I feel way more relaxed and I do think a lot of that is attributed to the fact that I I'm not carrying as much emotional weight as I used to . You know , like , and maybe that's , maybe that's the the the main point of the conversation that we had was kind of like , emotional intelligence can look like processing things , so you don't have to keep carrying them Like you're always going to have them maybe but you don't have to , like , carry the weight of it as much .
Speaker 2And so cause , like , you know , when you , when you do process them , when you have a situation , it's like a heavy situation , but you , you , you feel like you dealt with it in a way that was healthy and good . And you , you , you know , maybe you make yourself like a little proud of yourself , right , you leave that situation so much lighter . And you know , you know , those emotions are still there . You know that , like there's still things probably , maybe there's unresolved things , but it just doesn't feel as heavy as when you're trying to not feel it . Cause , like , and maybe that's like you know , you're carrying the weight of also the , the , the friction and the frustration of trying to not feel it . You know .
Launching a Group Coaching Program
Speaker 1Yeah , dude , I , I , oh man . I have definitely experienced this a lot in the last couple of weeks as I've been putting together this group program and as soon as I decided to do this , it was that , just that monster of like . Who are you to do this ?
Speaker 1What you're doing is going to be shit , like just trying to convince me to , to stay safe , to not step out and and do something . And I , you know , we we had our first group call on Friday and it was awesome , like I loved it . It was amazing to get this group of fives together . It's like we have a small group that like a beta group for the program and going into that call , I or like , coming out of that call , like I , I felt so much lighter and so good about myself , big , like , yeah , there's a , there's , uh , there's lots of things that could be improved . And that was one of the things is , like , you know , one of the things that I I do is is I'm I'm constantly thinking about , like how to make it better .
Speaker 1Yeah , I do that and , and so but I'm constantly thinking about how to make it better . Yeah , I do that , but I'm doing it all in advance , and so , no matter what I produce , it's never going to be good enough , because I'm only ever thinking about what it should be Sure .
Speaker 1I do that with music and I have to move forward anyway and I have to put something out there , knowing that , yes , it could be better . But also , this is great because I actually did it , and I've done this enough to know that even what I consider my shittiest work is still good work , because I put so much intention and care and thought into it and it wasn't there before .
Speaker 2It's helpful If somebody finds it valuable and it wasn't there before Right .
Speaker 1Like it's helpful Right .
Speaker 2If somebody finds it valuable , then it was worth doing Right .
Speaker 1And the whole thing that we're doing here . I'm like you know , what I told them is , hey , we're building this together . So you know , I'm going to be asking you for feedback , yeah , and I'm going to improve on this . But also I'm coming into it with all of this the last almost decade of everything that I've experienced and it's informing what I'm putting together and I'm excited to see what comes out of it , because I know , having gone through programs like this myself and done this work , I know that you can't go through a process like this and not have some sort of positive change , and I don't know what't , go through a process like this and not have some sort of positive change , and I don't know what it's going to look like , and it's probably gonna look like different for different people , and that's like , to me , the exciting part .
Speaker 1But for me it was that whole week was so hard because it was like it . I was trying to like , fight , fight an 800 pound gorilla , you know , or like , or like , trying to type on a keyboard with an 800 pound gorilla trying to fight me , and it was like , you know , um , yeah , and and and so , but I but I did it and I got , I got , I got through , like I moved past that that initial resistance , and I was , I I told I texted amy when I , um , after the call , I was like I'm , I'm so fucking proud of myself . Yeah , because I , I did it and and it's not like the external thing that I produced all of it , although I am proud of that it's like it's like I , I overcame , like I slayed that dragon , yeah , right , and um , and that's that's huge for me , because this is something that I've had a vision for for years . You have , I , you and I have been talking about this sort of thing forever .
Speaker 1Yeah , um , and even before you and I were talking about it , like it's something that I , I had , you know , I dreamed up Um , and , and now it's a reality and I'm putting it together and um and it's , it's . It scares the shit out of me in one regard , because it's like I don't know what's going to happen . But then that's also the exciting part , cause like I don't know what's going to happen , but I know it's going to be good .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I also think for for the um , for the sake of the people who have no idea what you're talking about what is this thing you're talking about ?
Speaker 1I guess I assumed that everybody knew what I was talking about . I mean , the 10 people who listen to the .
Speaker 2You don't know who's going to go and listen to this . What if ?
Speaker 1it's in the future , you don't know . That's a good point , yeah , so I have put together a group coaching program called Beyond the Mind and it's a six-week cohort-based program , and the reason why I'm doing it this way is because there's an aspect of it that's kind of like teaching a quick lesson in each call , but the bulk of it is meant to be experiential , and so as a group we put stuff we learn into practice and I have exercises and things to do that and we hold each other accountable in that Um and so the the whole purpose of it is to get I start getting out of your head and enjoy your life .
Speaker 1And so we're actually um , but but it's not just like a theoretical sort of um , analytical , uh , change .
Speaker 1It's .
Speaker 1It's all about taking stuff and putting it into practice and actually starting to change habits and get the experience of what it feels like to actually do these things , rather than just like learn about or think about these things .
Speaker 1And so we're doing stuff like this first week , what everyone's doing is called a mind loop log and we're just starting with awareness , and the goal is to just start to become more aware of when you get sucked into your head , and you don't have to change anything yet .
Speaker 1You just need to kind of put it on paper to start , so that you can create a little bit of separation there for yourself and then become a little bit more of an objective observer . And then you can start identifying patterns and once you start identifying those patterns , you can start figuring out what some of your triggers are . And then the next week we going to start work , working on those um and and so over the course of these six weeks you'll actually have practiced this , these , these techniques and these and these um habits that will help you continue to improve um . You know , incrementally over a long period of time , to where you know , like a year from now you look up and you're like I barely recognize myself because I'm I'm not spending all day in my head and I'm actually like able to um , to do things like start a podcast and like you know , um , and and and that's .
Speaker 1That's another thing that I'm I'm excited to see is like what comes out of this for people down the road too , of what , what will become possible for for people that wasn't possible for them before yeah , well , welcome back from that ad break you asked no , I , I know , I had it in my head the whole time .
Speaker 2I was gonna say that after , especially when you , like , went into the whole spiel .
Speaker 2I I realized now too that I set you up for that so well with what I said with the podcast um , yeah , but I mean that's awesome , though , and I think that I mean that is definitely like a core dream of what we envisioned for for this and being able to like actually provide real , you know , resources beyond the show . So I think it's you know it's , it's great . I , I , um , I'm glad we're finally at that stage . Yeah , but what so ? I guess also the irony of it too is right like you had to , you had to practice what you preach just to create what this is oh yeah , hardcore and the .
Speaker 1The crazy thing is , this is like , this is just like one piece I have like this is part of what I had to go through , of like I .
Speaker 1I actually went through and built up this whole model for this much , much bigger thing , yeah um , and and then , when I started to move forward on that , I'm like this is way too much and I need to make it more approachable , and so that's why we're starting with just this piece , but I do have a much bigger vision for a larger sort of transformational experience . A larger sort of transformational experience , yeah , but the I . There was a good example for me of like I in the past . I would have gotten hung up on that and and I would have gotten caught in , like you know , trying to do all of these things to make it the grandest , because I'm trying to anticipate everything that is going to need to be done before it even becomes something that needs to be done . Right , and I'm trying to like , think through all the ways that people will need to be helped before you know , and , like everything , they're going to need to know everything they're going to need to learn .
Speaker 2Yeah , I'm trying to like do all of this stuff in advance and it's like , first of all , that's ridiculous , um you're like that character in movies , that like tries , like say they're like going out on a date for the first time . They try to imagine every possible scenario and what they might say if like she says this or whatever .
Speaker 2I've been watching love on the spectrum on netflix and this . I feel like there's a couple situations on that show that's like that and that's what you remind me right now . It's like I imagine you just like , fully like how big that mind web must get , yeah I think of all of the scenarios it was um .
Speaker 1Yeah , it was definitely maxing out my ram so .
Speaker 1So I'm glad we we started with just like a , you know , a focused six week thing on helping you get out of your
Writing and Creativity Techniques
Speaker 1head , yeah , and , but I to your point . Yeah , I had to . I had to go through and , and the same . The same thing is happening , like with the book that I'm writing too , because , like we talked about , it's not something that I would have not have chosen to do this at this time , because it seems insane . Yeah , do this , trying to do these things at the same time . Yes , it does , um , and , but it's also forcing me to take a completely different approach and , uh , and it's , it's actually like , not really allowing me to overthink it much . It's like , um , and , and , which is way more uncomfortable , because I don't , I don't know what's going to happen in this um , like even less than than the time .
Speaker 1Yeah , but one of the things I'm going to do I'm going to experiment with , because our writing sprint actually starts Thursday , so May 1st , yeah , and so what I'm going to do this time ? Because basically , we go through this process of kind of pulling out all the stuff that eventually turns into prompts , yeah , so that you know you never have to like guess what , what to write about when you're ready to sit down and write , right ? Um , my problem is I , when I sit down to write , like typically 10% of what I'm doing is writing and 90% is editing , and the only way that I have found to really turn off my editor brain in a sustainable way is to not write and instead talk , because I can't really think and talk at the same time .
Speaker 1So , I'm just going to walk around and talk about my prompts . Record them and then transcribe them , and transcribe them , yeah yeah , and maybe have like ai just clean it up a little bit , like keep all the you know just make it read the contents there yeah right , make it readable in terms of like um , because , yeah , so it's not just like gobbledygook coming out of the transcription , you know yeah um , but you know , keep what I say intact , uh , and then just see what I have at the end um , and the whole thing is like I'm uh , because this is what azul says is like , um , like , writing shouldn't be thinking like you're .
Speaker 1You're trying to learn how to think with , or you're trying to learn how to write without thinking . Yeah and um , and that's really hard for me and uh , and , but what's easy for me at this point is to sit down and talk , because which was definitely not always the case it wasn't until we started doing this when that started to become easy yeah um , but uh , but now , because we've done this so much and we've done this like , sat down and recorded hundreds of hours of ourselves talking like we like that's .
Speaker 1I think that's going to be easier for me to actually sit down and and I'm sure , write the book by talking .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , I would say that's it's affected the way that I so instead of I could talk , and honestly , it would probably be better because I know that , like AI has the audio thing where you can just talk to AI instead of typing . But I do that with songwriting . I just I like turn off the thinking part and say this is what I'm feeling right now , and all the thoughts in my head , everything that's been rolling around , and I just like word vomit . You know this huge , long paragraph . And then I just ask AI what are the themes that you're picking up out of this ? That would make good songs .
Speaker 2And it literally has worked for me every single time .
Speaker 1Like .
Speaker 2I got to where at the end of Febriariders . That's all I was doing . I would start with like all right , I want to write something . Here's what's on my mind , you know .
Speaker 2tell me what some themes are here , and it would literally like springboard me right into , like yes , because it's tapping into my own memories and my own thoughts and saying , well , here's some really great themes you could work with this and , like you know , and here's some , here's some potential song titles , and it's like that's all I needed . And now we're now , we're now , we're off , off to the races , right , I think , yeah , that's so hard but like what you're getting in back into music too right in your life .
Speaker 1So , like , if you ever get to the place where you're , like , ready to write songs , this particular practice will be very helpful for you . Yeah , I want to talk to you about that some point . Um , just like what the process is , because I feel like that's part of my journey is to start writing songs again . Um , but I I don't .
Speaker 2That feels very vulnerable for me , so I'm not , yeah , going to do
Songwriting Insights
Speaker 2that my , my , my advice that I tell everybody now that asks me about songwriting , um , is that the best way to write a song is to try to write about anything like or nothing like , just like . Don't sit down and try to write your best song about blank or whatever the thing is , because that's what most people do and they , like you said , you can't turn off editor brains . So if you have that in your mind , you have the outcome in your mind of what you think you want it to sound like or what you want it to make you feel or whatever . Whatever picture you've already painted in your head about what you think this should be . It's never going to be that , it doesn't matter how hard you try .
Speaker 2And so like you're fighting against that monster , that that thing . That's just like constantly giving you that resistance of like oh , you're never going to be good enough to write this thing , and so you just get in your head about it and like that's what I used to do . I used to write like two or three songs a year . It got to the point in my 30s especially . It's like I've gone an entire year without writing a single song and now I wrote 24 songs in a month and I haven't picked up . I haven't tried to write since then , but I've just started getting the itch and I know that if I sit down I can produce at least half of a song in an hour , probably , if not quicker , by the time I got to the end of February .
Speaker 2Writers no-transcript and then just editing it from that point on . And so I think I'm sorry , I didn't mean to interrupt , I was just gonna say a lot of it is just getting past that idea where it's like , try , picking , there's so many exercises you can do Pick a line that interests you in a book and write about that . Or , like a magazine , you write about this picture and , like you know , I remember one time I wrote a picture I wrote a song about . It was a picture in a magazine of people enjoying a day on the lake in the boat . And so it's like you have to write what would you write a song about ? Just this picture and make it a story . You know , what would you write a song about ? Just this picture and make it a story ? It's stuff like that , and so it's just exercises and then . So then when the good content comes , the heavy content , it doesn't seem so daunting to write about it .
Speaker 1Well , it's not the , so I always had a much easier time with the lyrics . It's the music that has always been a struggle for me . It's figuring out figuring out , because the way I learned music was you know , playing at church , which is very formulaic .
Speaker 2I .
Speaker 1I never really figured out how to become creative with music itself , and that's the struggle for me . So , like I could , I I actually think that I could pretty quickly get up to the point where I'm a decent at writing lyrics . It's the music part that is challenge that makes sense .
Speaker 2I , I was .
Speaker 2I mean , I think songwriting is formulaic , but I think that it's also , like you know , I've always adhered to certain rules , so much so that , like you were there when we made that video with um , the guy who produced my last record , and he , he said , one of the reasons why I like working with cody is because , like he knows where the parts go in a song like it's always like it's very easy to know where the verses and chorus are , where the hook is , that kind of stuff and it's yeah , I've always been super formulaic , but what I've been doing this year and what I'm really excited about , I'm writing songs now that I've never been prouder of , and it's because I write the song through the lens of the formula and then I figure out how to break those rules .
Speaker 2So then I'm like well , what if I did this , cause it doesn't make any sense . But does it make sonically ? Does it make sense ? And I started writing songs that , like with chords that should not go together but they just it just works . And so it's stuff like that , or , like you know , changing time signatures and doing like these different things that don't make sense on paper when it comes to music . But , but I think part of it is understanding and really like , without even thinking about it , you know the formulas and like , so , like , honestly , the church format that you learned in is very helpful for that , because it's just country and pop and that's people follow those formulas and make millions of dollars off of it . So it's not , the formula is not bad , it's just a matter of like , how do you make it work for yourself and what you want to do with it . But , like , I think having the formulas is actually really helpful and beneficial , okay , anyway well for anybody curious .
Speaker 2Anybody else is curious about songwriting . That's , that's my take on it , at least my two cents .
Conclusion and Sign-Off
Speaker 1All right , it's getting late , we need to call it all right . Well , this is another afterthoughts .
Speaker 2Thanks for sticking around it's honestly my favorite thing we do . Yeah , it's , it's the most chill . Yeah , for sure , all right , see you next time , everybody .