What Causes a Haunting?

Join Jenn and Cortney on Paranormal Coffee Hour as they explore why people and places are haunted. From lingering emotions and unfinished stories to energetic imprints and collective memory, they dive into the fascinating blend of psychology, spirituality, and the supernatural that shapes hauntings. Is it trauma echoing through time, or something more mysterious reaching out from beyond? Pour yourself a cup, settle in, and discover what really makes a haunting take hold.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Welcome to Paranormal Coffee Hour. We're your host Jen. And Courtney. And we're pouring you a strong cup of the weird, the wonderful, and the woo-hoo. On this episode of Paranormal Coffee Hour, we're going to be talking about why places are haunted. So, Courtney, why do people think places are haunted?

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Oh Lord, this gets lobbed at me right away. Yeah, you're damn right it is. Where's the guest host when I need them? Not with us today. Fantastic. A lot of people are thinking trauma. Yep. What else was there? Deaths.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Deaths, traumatic deaths.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Sometimes those go hand in hand. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

I think everybody assumes a place is going to be haunted if there's a death there. But that doesn't always happen. No, it doesn't. Some people are like, I'm out, bitch. So today what we're going to be doing is we're going to be looking at 10 different theories of why we believe places can be haunted. And these are kind of the top 10. There was some more. There are. But also, what's important to understand when it comes to these theories is the fact that some of them are just simply there to explain why people might perceive a place being haunted. Correct. So let's get started. First and foremost is the most common one, and that is the survival of consciousness theory, also known as the traditional ghost. Is this the one in the white sheet since it's traditional? Really, hey, what's up? It just makes me think of the Bigfoot advent calendar that you gave me. One of the ones that there is Bigfoot in a white sheet. I'm like, is this supposed to be Bigfoot ghosts? What is this? What's up, Daryl? All right. So, survival consciousness theory. What is it? Well, human consciousness is supposed to continue after death. And according to the theory, it interacts with the living world often where emotional or personal ties remain strong. This theory came from ancient spiritual traditions that often focused around ancestor veneration with cross-cultural afterlife beliefs. It was established and really formalized during the spiritualist movement, which we've talked about previously on other podcast episodes. That movement took place in the 1840s to the 1920s, and it often involved seances, mediums, and cyclical research. So they were looking into, you know, the idea that energy continues on and that the spirit continues on. So that's the movement in which I trained as a medium. So why was this proposed? Well, it's to explain intelligent hauntings, moving objects, spoken messages, apparitions that respond to the living person. So let's talk about some examples of where we can find this within our own state. And that's not the state of insanity I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

No, I like the first one.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

So, as many of you know, we are located in the state of Wisconsin. And one of the ones we want to talk about where we see the survival of consciousness theory potentially showing itself is in Milwaukee at the Fister Hotel. So one of the things that's happened there, reportedly, is that Major League Baseball players who are coming in to play against the Brewers, which is Wisconsin's MLB team, they have repeatedly reported seeing full body apparitions. They've heard disembodied voices, lights turning on by themselves, and shadow figures watching them sleep. Or maybe it's adoring fans. We don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

I wouldn't want anyone watching me sleep as it is, let alone a shadow figure, being like, no, thanks, sir.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

There are actually some major league baseball players that refuse to stay at the fister because of this.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

I wonder where else they're staying then.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Who knows?

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Because usually I know where the football team stays and they don't usually are like, hey, this is where we're staying, even though fans end up sitting outside the doors when the team show up.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Well, everybody knows where they stay when they come to play against the Packers.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

I know, but they don't like you putting it out there, so it's quite funny.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

So these events at the Fister often include intelligent responses like footsteps that mimic the witness. That's creepy.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah, considering I've been hearing those for how long lately?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Courtney lives at the fister now.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

No, in my own damn house.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Or also witnesses have reported objects being moved after they request an object is moved.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

That could be handy.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

I you know, could you grab me that place over there and then it comes and then you're freaked out? I mean, come on. Like you just asked for that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

I wonder if it's Faye.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

Maybe. I mean, we are right next to Lake Michigan when we're in Milwaukee.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

So who knows? But that's one of the examples in Wisconsin. There is another, and that is the Summer Wind Mansion up in the Landau Lakes area in the northern part of the state. So the legendary mansion, which no longer stands, it burned down, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Or fortunately, depending on how you look at it.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

True. It's become known for apparitions believed to be the former owners or service. Workers renovating the home saw human figures vanish through walls when they were trying to get it fixed back up. Even the family dog reportedly barked at unseen people. Okay, okay, hang on here. I have three dogs. They bark at the weirdest shit.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

Yep, the stitch does too.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

And I love it. Last night they're looking out the door and they're barking, and we're like, okay, what's out there? And they're just barking like madmen. And there's nothing.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Which way were they barking?

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Towards the apple trees.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

No rabbits, no cats, no nothing.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

That explains it.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Yeah, well.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

My friend was out there.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Yeah. Bigfoot was out in the yard and we couldn't see him.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Or the other friend.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Or the other friend. Sven. Mm-hmm. The hauntings appear purposeful at Summerwind. They're responsive, they're personal. It's kind of that classic survival of consciousness behavior. So that's our first theory. Courtney, where do we go for the second theory?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

We've got the residual energy or stone tape, which is emotional imprinting. The theory is it's emotionally charged events that imprint onto the environment and replay like a recording. It came from the British psychical research theorists believed stone or soil could absorb strong emotions. It was established in the 1970s, especially after the BBC's stone tape film, Blaine's Hauntings with no awareness or interaction. Ghosts that repeat the same action on a loop. Here are a couple of things in Wisconsin. The bloody bride bridge in Stevens Point. Many drivers report seeing a bride in a bloodstained dress appear on the road. She never interacts, she simply reenacts the moment of her fatal car crash.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Are we sure that was a car crash, or did she just realize what she was doing and then kill him? Well, that was my thought too. And it sounds really urban legend like on this one.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

It does. Some even claim she appears in their back seat, then disappears instantly. Stranger danger. The story does not change, suggesting a looped imprint rather than a spirit.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

So no consciousness there is what they're saying.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

The other one is the Dartford Cemetery in Green Lake. And I think we discussed this one.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

One did. It was in our haunted cemeteries podcast.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Yeah. Um witnesses often see the same figure walking the same hill path, even wearing the same clothing. The figure never acknowledges observers and vanishes mid-stride. That's rude. A little tip of the hat, maybe. It's not conscious of them. Visitors report cold spots and repeated replay moments that never vary.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Interesting. All right. So we're headed on to theory number three, which is one of my favorites. It's the psychokinetic or PK or RSPK, which refers to recurring spontaneous psychokinesis theory. Now, we talked about PK activity in a previous podcast. Yep. I'm still upset.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

I cannot figure out how I don't have one.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Really deal with my therapy well. So, what's the theory is behind this is that a living person unknowingly generates poltergeist activity through their emotional stress. So if that's the case, I should be burning places down lately. Especially work. So where did this idea come from? Well, it came from one of my favorite places, which is the J.B. Ryan's Parapsychology Experiments at Duke University. And now, um, after JB Ryan worked there, they now have the Rhine Institute for Parapsychology there. When was it established? Well, this happened in the 1930s to 1970s, especially during the peak poltergeist case research, which we had a lot of poltergeist activity being broadcast both in the UK and in the United States during that time. So this theory came out because it was trying to explain why violent or chaotic hauntings happen when no spirit is actually detected. So where do we see this in our own state of Wisconsin? Well, in the town of Watertown, there is a place known as the Quiet House. And in the 1970s, newspapers were documenting flying objects, breaking dishes, and furniture movement. Investigators eventually tied all activity to a teenage girl undergoing major family stress. This is not a surprise to us because, as we've talked about with PK activity in the past, it's typically around the time when someone's hormones are shifting that we tend to see somebody being able to be a PK agent more so than other times.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

And I like it's the quiet house. It doesn't sound very quiet to me.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

I think it's ironic. When this teenage girl spent nights elsewhere, away from her home, activity would just stop. And so this fits perfectly with this PK pattern. Another place, we often have a lot of times our own experiences. So, for example, I've been to an investigation where we had a teenage girl who was creating a spirit in her home. And we've also talked about the fact that when PK activity is allowed to go on for so long, it can actually start to manifest a physical spirit that's used as a shield. And this physical spirit can actually start to take on its own life entity, yeah, life force. And eventually, if it was to keep going on, could potentially detach itself from the PK agent. Correct. So crazy idea, but when you give something enough energy and you let it keep going and going and it keeps building, it can then almost have a life of its own without the source.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Can you imagine having all that energy and creating something that large?

SPEAKER_00 10:31

I mean, this girl was 16, she'd been through a lot, and her PK manifestation that she created, her shield that, and she didn't know she was doing this. She like that thing was not far from having a life of its own.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Most don't know that they're doing it.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

No, no, it's not like they're purposefully doing this. It's just because trauma hasn't been dealt with oftentimes. You're at that flux of hormone shifting, and then suddenly you're trying to deal with all these different variables, hormones, trauma, and you need to you also have self-protective techniques coming in. Right. And that's what happens. So some people just have a ton of energy that they can then expend and give off and start forming entities. It's kind of crazy to think. All right, Courtney's got our next theory.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

All right, we're moving on to the environmental and geophysical theory. It's the environmental factors create sensations mistaken for hauntings.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

So this is one where it's not actually a haunting, but can simulate to a human being that there might be one. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Okay. The environmental psychology, acoustic research, and geology is where it came from. It was established in the 1960s through the 1990s, and it was proposed to explain dread shadow figures and physiological reactions without spirits. This one's the one where Kent is really good at it for our team.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

That's true. So he often looks at what are the environmental factors like our things giving off EMF. What's actually going on around the area in terms of the environment that might be picked up by the sensitivity of the human body and then misread as a spirit.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Let's see. So in Wisconsin examples, we've got the Clintonville mystery booms.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Hey, you were sitting right in the area where that happens.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Fantastic. Residents reported explosions, shaking beds, and objects falling from shelves. Many believe paranormal forces were at work. Geological research revealed micro earthquakes, tiny quakes producing sound and vibration while remaining below typical detection levels.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Yes. Yeah. I mean, we still get, well, we get ice booms out here too. Yep. But we're on a fault line in Wisconsin. Most people don't realize that. We're on a pretty major fault line, actually, with the Niagara Escarpment. And we just haven't had a lot of fault line movement out here until about 2012 when we had micro earthquakes.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

All right. So we're now going to talk about Wisconsin farmhouses. A lot of them still have the knob and tube wiring. Yes. That's pretty cool. Those will throw off high EMFs. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Or you talk about the people who wire their own houses up and don't ground things properly.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Oh, you're supposed to do that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

Yeah, surprisingly so. Weird. That'll give off EMF energy also.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Which will cause paranoia, dizziness.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

That whole idea of someone's watching you, even shadow people. A lot of times people talk about shadow people. That's actually a hallucination if you do have a high EMF in your house.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

And how many houses have you investigated like that? I know I can name off about two or three off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 13:26

I mean, I've even had it where recent builds that have appliances. So much of the technology and appliances today gives off a shit ton of EMF because you have all this Wi-Fi-enabled appliance. Yep. So you almost need somebody to come in and like do shielding on some of these so that you're not getting all the EMF thrown off from them. All that feedback. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Lake Michigan and Wisconsin River also have the infrasound. Yes. Strong winds across the bluffs and water create infrasound under 20 hertz. And witnesses often feel dread, nausea, or a sense of presence on lakeside cliffs. And the paranormal hot spots along the lakeshore often coincide with infrasound rich zones.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

That's a really interesting concept with infrasound because your body can pick it up, but you can't hear it.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

And Lake Michigan is a hot spot. So that's kind of interesting how that goes hand in hand.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

It's kind of the question of looking at each occurrence and going, okay, is it infrasound or is this real? Because we do know that there have been real experiences along Lake Michigan. Yep. So we're not just gonna chalk it up to infrasound every time, but you have to look at each experience and go, okay, what was going on at that time? Because infrasound is not always given off on Lake Michigan. No, it just depends on the conditions that day. Our next theory about why places are haunted is cultural or historical trauma theory. This one I am near and dear to, mostly because I was, and still I am, according to my husband, super history geek. But also in my earlier years. You saw that with love though. So you think. In my earlier years, I used to be a historical reenactor, and I also worked at a first-person historical park in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and had a lot of my very first paranormal experiences that I could call paranormal happened there. So what is this theory? Well, places are haunted because traumatic events were never acknowledged or healed. Where do we typically see this happening? Typically, indigenous trauma research is where this came from, Holocaust studies, sociology of cultural memory, and it was established primarily in the 1970s, but formalized in the 90s and into the 2000s. I know Courtney had this look of surprise on her face, because you guys can't see that over the microphone. Weird. The 1970s keeps coming up, but that's also because in the 1970s we start having publicized incidences with Ed and Lorraine Warren. It's not the drugs doing investigating. No, it is not the drugs. Somebody brought it up, so I had to throw it out there. So this theory came across because they were trying to explain why haunting like experiences at battlefields, burial grounds, and sites of injustice were happening. So we have some examples in Wisconsin. I'm gonna give you one of my personal examples. So I used to work, like I said, for Historical Park, Heritage Hill Historical Park in Green Bay. And several of the buildings that were there were original buildings. They were part of one of the camps, Camp Smith, that used to exist. And it used to be located on the west side of the river in Green Bay. And that camp had experienced at one point a cholera outbreak. And it's actually why the camp would eventually become moved over to the other side of the river. But the buildings themselves, primarily the hospital, I would often hear footsteps. I would have things responding to my requests, like, hey, if you're here, can you make that candle like shoot way up? That was freaky when it did. And then suddenly all of them did in the room. Yeah, they were trying to freak me out, little fuckers. Anyway, we would have experiences like that there. And part of it was just there was trauma. The trauma of illness and sickness, and finally somebody recognizing that somebody went through this trauma and was trying to communicate with them and understand them. We also see this in Wisconsin at Camp Randall. Now, we laugh because we think Camp Randall is UW Madison's stadium, which it is, but there's a reason it's called Camp Randall, and it's because it is built on the grounds of where Camp Randall, the Civil War prisoner of war camp, used to sit. So Camp Randall in Madison is where hundreds died from disease and mistreatment. And modern visitors often report hearing soldiers marching, crying, shadow figures, overwhelming sadness, and all these experiences reflect sort of this collective grief that got embedded in the land.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Are we noticing a theme with these shadow figures? What's our theme? They just keep popping up on like almost every single one. Like a whack-a-mole? Yeah. That shadow figure down.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Also, Wisconsin, if you didn't know this about us, we are home to a tremendous amount of indigenous burial mounds.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Technically, they should. We brought it up a couple times.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah, well, if it's your first time listening, we won't, you know, hold it against you. But Wisconsin used to house 44,000 different indigenous burial mounds. That number is now down to 4,000. And actually, I think it's reducing from there. Why? Because many towns were built over these mounds, causing cultural disruption. People report apparitions, sickness, nightmares, a sense of trespassing. Go figure. Weird. The land itself is spiritually active in the Ho-chunk, Menominee, and Ojibwa traditions. So these mounds are not just burial mounds, they're also effigy mounds, which contain artifacts. Yep. And we literally have them not in my backyard, but we have them only within a few miles of here. There are some mounds. And we've talked about this before, both in our Nina Manasha podcast. We've talked about this in our New London podcast. So these are very important because this area was home to the mound builders. So disruption, desecration oftentimes leads to people experiencing things around the mounds.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

As they should, assholes.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

Tell us how you really feel.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Where do you want me to start?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Last but not least, a very popular place for paranormal investigations in Wisconsin is the old Baraboo Inn. This place is a prohibition era brothel and crime hub. If you didn't know this about Wisconsin, we were the playground for the Chicago mob. I mean, why wouldn't we be? So mob figures like El Capone left coming to Wisconsin because of our beauty. First of all, of course we're beautiful, but also because they could hide out. We were not quite as populated as their Chicago home. So, old Baraboo in, what do the reports include? Well, women's screams, phantom bar fights. Watch out for that stool. What the fuck, you just hit me. No, I didn't. An oppressive emotional presence. I mean, you're dealing with the mob. What did you expect? So oftentimes, obviously, these sort of experiences are reflecting trauma tied to exploitation and violence. I mean. For the violence or the exploitation? All of it. We can be friends. All right, Courtney, what's our next theory on why places are haunted?

SPEAKER_01 20:14

All right. We're going to folkloric and narrative theory. It is stories that create expectations that shape experiences. It came from folklore studies, anthropology, and cognitive psychology. It was established in the mid-20th century academic folklore theory, and it explains why similar hauntings occur where the same legend circulates.

SPEAKER_00 20:36

So is this like urban legend theory, essentially?

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah, pretty much. Okay. We're gonna talk about the Ridgeway ghost in the Dodgeville Mineral Point area. It's seen since the 1800s, so this guy's been around forever. He's been around the block. Amen. The ghost changes appearances, but keeps the same behaviors. Approaching travelers, transforming shape, and vanishing.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

He said shapeshifter.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

That's what I got out of that. Right? Each generation adds new elements, and sightings rise after retelling. So, like one day he's got a scarf, the next day he doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

One day he's got a scar under his eye, and the next day it's healed. The next day it's got a tattoo over that skull. So, what are we jelly roll?

SPEAKER_01 21:20

It's a perfect example of legend influencing perception. We've also got the chain of lakes in Wapaca, which we're right nearby. Hello, neighbors. Children's camp ghost stories shape what people expect at night on the water. Visitors report lights, footsteps, or voices and patterns that match old campfire stories. Maybe it's like uh the Morris code.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Hey, I was just out on the chain of lakes this past summer on the Chief, which is a paddle boat, and during the day I got sunburned, in case y'all wanted to know. Weird. But anyway, yeah, stupid Irish Scottish blood. Anyway, but you go out on the chain of lakes, and there is definitely a feeling to it. And I surprisingly don't know all that. Much about the stories out there, but there is an energy to it. And the for those of you who don't know, the chain of lakes were glacier made, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:07

I'm not a hundred percent, but I'm pretty sure there's mounds over that way also.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

There are mounds over that way, actually. But I believe they're glacier-made lakes, and it's beautiful area, a lot of very expensive houses. Oh, yes. But there is just a feel, a different feel out there. It always feels like someone's watching you. Yes. If there wasn't Bigfoot presence on some of those areas, I would be surprised. Yep. But I always wonder, like, when does folkloric theory and aggregor theory collide?

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Well, and that's where the Bell Witch always comes to mind when I think of this.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Yeah. Because, you know, you tell this story and you retell it over and over and over again, and then you give it that energy. Yep. And then it starts to take its own form. So, you know, is folkloric theory then turning into an aggregor? Which is funny because that's our next theory.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Oh, I love this one.

SPEAKER_00 22:55

I know. So let's just run into that theory. Why don't we? Fantastic. So we've touched on egregors before when we talked about spirits. And an egregore is this collective belief that manifests a real feeling paranormal presence. So what is that exactly? Well, enough people put energy to a divisive symbol, the swastika. Okay. That symbol has actually been around for a very long time prior to the Nazis.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Oh, it was a long time.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah, and it had a different meaning at one time. However, once that was used as a symbol to represent Nazi Germany, the energy that was put into it then grew that symbol into what it means and actually has created sort of a presence around that symbol. And that's where the term egregor came from originally, is from symbolism and like how people give meaning to symbolism and paranormal activity. And in the paranormal studies, we're looking at it as energy being amassed and built up to where it creates a physical presence. So, where did this all idea come from? Well, we have Tibetan Buddhism, which believes in what's known as the Tulpa. I want one. We have parapsychology experiments that have happened where they've been looking into one of them is known as the Philip experiment, where they've been looking at how does energy surrounding an idea produce that idea. And then, of course, what Western occultism, we talk about the term agregor. This idea has been around forever. Okay. Ancient origins. It goes back a long way. And I like to often say we still believe in it because we talk about manifesting. Correct. So we've given it a new term. Why was this even proposed? Well, there are hauntings that have grown stronger when they're given more attention. So, where do we see this in Wisconsin? For example, the beast of Bray Road. Now, this is an example that's given, though I don't know if I agree with it.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

I don't agree with this one.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

But there could be a potential there. So the idea is that some investigators argue that the creature acts like an aggregator, where it appears differently to different witnesses. Sightings spike when media reports increase and physical evidence is never found. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

I mean, the sightings spike when media reports increase. How do you know it's not like running season or something or whatever?

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Something's pushing it out more.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

So that one I'm still on the fence about. But the other one though, The Witch of Ridge Road in Manitowak, this one I could see as an agricore. Yes. Sightings increase dramatically after the legend spread online. You know what this also reminds me of? Slender Man. Yes. Yeah. Reports include spectral woman, a creature running beside cars, sudden scratches on vehicles, and witnesses are often described what they've heard about, suggesting belief shapes, manifestation.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Oh, that also sounds like on a marsh road.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yes. Yes. So out here in this area of Wapaca County, Wisconsin, we have Marsh Road. And I think this might be another one where we have people who they are hearing the stories. It is a legend that we have out here of a goat, half goat, half man.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Goat man, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Yeah. One of the things, though, that I ran into when investigating was native spirits that were saying, well, yeah, but we're also using that half goat, half man as a way of deterring people from being disrespectful to the land.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Correct. And they are disrespectful out that way.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

And that's the only ones who ever see it are the ones who are being very disrespectful or in the process of being. Correct. Another one that's really well known in our state is the hodeg. And this began actually up in the Rhinelander area. It's began as a lumberjack hoax in the 1890s, 1896 to be exact. And yet tourists are still reporting strange noises, shadows, and movement in hodeg related areas. It's like a community aggregor that they're creating the whodeg because there's enough belief around the perceived phenomenon.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

I mean, you can even go up there and get keychains and mugs. You've seen a picture with the statue of the hodeg right there. That guy is, I'm surprised there's not like a whole family and cousins and everything of it up there. They've got a massive family hodeg reunion? Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

It's like Daryl and the Hodeg. Daryl and Hodeg are hanging out. Daryl, aka Bigfoot. That's what Courtney calls Bigfoot, if you guys didn't know that. Bigfoot and the Hodeg are walking to a bar sounds like a joke, but you know, where's the priest?

SPEAKER_01 27:07

All right. Number eight. We are on number eight.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Eight theory of ten.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

All right, psychological and emotional projection theory. It is people project internal states onto environments, interpreting emotions as paranormal. It came from the young trauma psychology, environmental psychology. It was established in the early 1900s and expanded with trauma research in the late 20th century.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

This came from my man, Carl Young.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Uh-huh. Ooh, shadow work person. We love shadow work. Sure we do. I always need more. It's fine. Everybody does. It's fine. I love it. It was proposed to explain hauntings tied to grief, fear, sleep deprivation. Oh, wait a call me out. See? Shadow work. Or unresolved trauma. Shit. In Wisconsin, now this one surprises me, the house on the rock. Because I'd never realized it. A famously overwhelming sensory environment. And many visitors report feelings of presence, dread, or being watched. And psychologists suggest these reactions reflect inner emotional triggers and not spirits. But I've also never been there, so it makes sense that I didn't know. The Peshtigo Fire Memorial Sites. This one does not surprise me.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

If you guys didn't know, the Pestigo fire happened at the same time as the Great Chicago fire. The problem was it was worse because all of our firefighters were down in Chicago for mutual aid, and there was nobody up here really to fight this fire. So it turned into a worse fire.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

The waters were boiling.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Yeah. The people would run into the water to try and escape the fire and then would end up dying in the water because the waters would be too hot.

SPEAKER_01 28:45

It literally melted their skins off. It was horrible. Pretty sure we did a podcast on that one too. Pestrical fire? I thought it was in one of the podcasts. It probably was. Because I don't just pull that shit out of my head for nothing. Anywho, descendants visiting the site feel heat, panic, or hear phantom sounds. And these are consistent with generational trauma and place triggered emotional memory.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Let's talk about what we were talking about before. Because I do feel like this fits here. Okay. So one of the things we were discussing was the idea of grief and how people who are grieving someone or people who have experienced like a difficult life, their homes become their refuge. And when that person is ready to move on, sometimes the home is not ready to let go.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

No.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

And it's not because it's like malicious or anything like that. It's more because the home thinks it needs to hang on and be that safe space for that person.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

And the living don't even realize that they are contributing to it.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

And we kind of came across this theory, Courtney and I did, as we did a house cleansing for somebody in Wisconsin who had moved out of her home and her home was on the market and it had been on the market for two years in a very, very hot market where homes were selling really quickly. Wasn't priced badly at all. Beautiful home. Gorgeous. But it wouldn't sell. And she couldn't figure out why. And her realtor reached out to me. And when we visited the home, we figured out that the home was sort of hanging on, saving a space for this woman because when she had moved there originally, it was kind of her fresh start in life. And now she was moving on again, but the house wasn't ready for her to move on. Or it didn't think that she was ready to move on. So it was holding space for her and wouldn't let anybody else live there. So what does that really look like? Well, you walk into a home and it just that energy doesn't feel right, or it just doesn't seem to fit for you. That's kind of what was going on here. So we had to get the house to release that, and we did.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Once that happened, that house sold so quickly. Yeah. The house was like, oh, we're sorry. All right, have a great life. Thanks. Love you, bye.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

So when we talk about this psychological and emotional projection theory, energy is never created nor, you know, it's not created or destroyed. It just transforms and sometimes it gets stuck in a place. And that place thinks it needs to hold it for you.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

The weird part is people don't even realize they're doing it. No.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

No. Because if they did, they wouldn't. Correct. So interesting. This is I fully believe in this one, especially after seeing it happen firsthand. Still seeing it. Yep. All right. Our next theory is interdimensional time slip. This is a fascinating one. This one is. This actually kind of goes back to our discussions in the past about when we talked about quantum physics. Yes. And the idea that, you know, there's multiple dimensions. And what if ghosts aren't really ghosts? What if like there's a bleed between dimensions? And we're like seeing the past and they're seeing the future. Yep. And we're just somehow interacting in that middle ground. So the idea that ghosts are bleeding through from other times or other dimensions. And actually, Bigfoot is one of the theories about why don't we ever see remains of Bigfoot? Yep. Is because they're dimension, like they're they're bleeding or traveling through dimensions.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

He's got the blinds going.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

The Venetian blinds. So this idea came from the idea of modern physics, particularly quantum physics, and the multiverse theory. Um, we see this start coming into play in the late 20th century where the paranormal and physics research are starting to kind of come together. And it's used to sort of explain why sightings of historical scenes or entities that act unaware of the present. So one of the examples I have from my own experiences as a first-person interpreter and a historical reenactor, when I traveled and visited Fort McHenry in Baltimore, Maryland, my ex-husband and I were staying the night there with our whole group of people that were in our reenacting group. And we were having dinner, specifically crabs, because they're delicious in Baltimore. And, you know, you got the mallets out and the gripper thingies, and you're tearing apart the crab. And suddenly we look out the window and there is this line of soldiers marching past. And we're like, who, who on earth is running drills at this hour of the night when we're all half drunk and eating crab? And then we stick our head out the window and look and you can see through them. Ah yeah. I mean, it's not often I see spirits like that. That's very rare. But you could see these guys. It was like, I mean, for all I know, we threw a piece of crab leg through them as they were going by because we were really going, it's delicious. We're really going at it. Ducking cover. Beer and crab. Come on, people, it's delicious. Anyway, but we watched them walk by and we're all like, Are you kidding me? But they didn't even notice we were there. It's not like anybody looked back or looked at us as they went by. It was as though. So here's my question: Is that residual or is that a time bleed? Or are those two things the same?

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Well, look at that one house that you did where she kept waking up in a church or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Oh, yeah. The older woman who had me come in, and she would be woken up by spirits. Yes. And they were looking at her like, what are you doing here? And she's looking at them, going, Well, what are you doing here in my condo? And they were both seeing each other within their own time frame. Yes. That's more, I think, of a time bleed. Yes. Because the where her condo was was once where there was a church, like a very old church. And they're looking at her like she's laying in a church pew, going, Oh, this poor old lady has fallen asleep in church, needs a safe place to sleep. And she's looking at him going, Why the hell are you at the end of my bed in my condo?

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah, I think I would have probably been like, um, nope, I need meds.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

We see some really weird shit. We do. I just realized that. I don't know why it just hit me now. Like, wow, there's been some really weird shit over the like the last five to ten years that I've experienced.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

I feel like it's gotten more in the last five to six.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Yeah, it has.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Weird. How long have we known each other?

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Thanks, Courtney. Courtney brings out the weird shit. Let's just say it. So, other places in Wisconsin, we see this happening. Holy Hill. Holy Hill, by the way, is actually like right outside the Kettle Moraine area. And the Kettle Moraine area is also home to the Beast of Bray Road, things like that. So hikers in Holy Hills will suddenly report losing 20 to 30 minutes of time. They feel as though time paused. And then some describe hearing a chanting or bells from a whole nother era. Time distortion is also a very much a hallmark of the time slip. Lake Winnebago. Lake Winnebago is a landlocked lake in Wisconsin. And for over a century, fishermen have seen masted ships from the 1800s that just vanish instantly. These ships will often sail through modern boats without collision. Okay, if you're on a boat and another one comes at you, like I would have probably shipped my pants, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Don't forget, you've got all that stuff around Lake Winnebago, all the indigenous issues. Oh god, yeah. And also, isn't there supposed to be a creature in that lake also?

SPEAKER_00 35:39

There is supposed to be a creature in Lake Winnebago.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

So, I mean, you've got the perfect storm for Lake Winnebago then. Yeah, we do. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

So, other place, Wisconsin Dells. Dells is actually a geography term, the way the land is shaped and cut by water, and it produces these kind of canyon areas. It's a really cool area of Wisconsin, but people report seeing figures in 1800s clothing walking routes that no longer exist, but they match the maps from a logging era in the state.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Could you imagine? Be like, we're okay, never mind. He just went off the trail.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Honestly, nothing surprises me anymore. I'd be like, yeah, yeah, figures. Yeah. That's my life. All right, Cordy. We are finally to the end here. We have got the last theory, and it's a doozy of one.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

All right, we've got the non-human entity theory. What it is, some hauntings come from non-human beings, land spirits, elementals, demons. Those are my friends. The jinn, forest entities. Those are also your friends, aka Fei. They are. I can't help it. They like me. Who doesn't? It came from global spiritual traditions, indigenous cosmologies, and Christian demonology, Islamic lore, and it was established by ancient roots worldwide.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Yeah, this has been around for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

It was proposed because not all hauntings fit human death patterns. Hey, we're back there again. Dude, surprised. Now, this always has a lot of shit going down in it.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Have you driven through it? It's creepy as fuck. Even in the daytime. No, I don't think so. It's like swampland meets some forest meets I don't know. I mean, the kettle moraine is essentially swamp, but not swamp. What do we call it? Wetlands. Oh.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

It's wetlands. Fantastic. Got regular reports of tall shadow beings. Weird glowing eyed creatures, so it doesn't really have to be red, could be yellow. Could be amber. Oh, beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Maybe its name is Amber.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Amber, you're amber eyes. And entities that mimic voices. Ooh, do not answer them. Many describe the forest as alive, watchful, or otherworldly. What wonderful adjectives. And the unique glacier-shaped terrain may amplify sensory distortions. I think we should just go. Like when we went up to Door County, we should just go kill a moraine one day. Yeah. Be like, what's up, bitches?

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Hey, you me. Road trip. All right, go.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Manitowak Lake Michigan Coast. Frequent sightings of water spirits, glowing orbs over the waves, and humanoid shapes under the surface.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Yes. So here's an interesting thing. It wasn't Manitowak, it was Elgoma, which is north of Manitowak by quite a bit, actually. And I was doing an investigation at a very popular restaurant and bar, and I kept picking up like bodies under the water of Lake Michigan, but then like coming up on shore.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

So I wonder, is that from the shipwrecks? Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. Or you know, what is it when oh by like Seattle or whatever when they would Shanghai. Shanghai, you? Yeah. Like that's all I keep hearing in my head right now. Shanghai.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Well, but that would actually happen. So, you know, Wisconsin, we've always been very proud of our alcohol. And there are a lot of bootlegging in the state. Yes. So when I was at this bar in Algoma, or restaurant, I should say restaurant, because it's more restaurant than bar. It had, I kept getting images of people like at night rolling barrels of alcohol down the hill towards the water.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

So of course, you know, you get that as a medium, and then you're like, okay, am I making this shit up? Am I really seeing this? Is there history to this? There's history to it. There is, is what I found out. They would be bootlegging, they would be sending alcohol. So they typically, Algoma has some hills to it, and there is some hills that go down towards Lake Michigan, and they would roll these big ass barrels. They would roll these big ass barrels down to the ships, waiting to get the alcohol out. Because then, of course, they travel down Lake Michigan. They can get to Chicago, they can get to other areas. So, needless to say, I would not be surprised if Shanghaiing somebody, granted, they're not on the West Coast. So basically abducting them to work was a thing. I wouldn't be surprised if we had that app.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

No, when you brought that up, that's what I could picture is them like sending the bodies down, like, oh, that one died. Fuck them. Out like Michigan. See ya. Yeah. Even though they should have used superior because they won't find them.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

I don't think they find them that easily in Michigan either. It's fine. So another area where we see the Ho Chuck and Menominee are indigenous to Wisconsin. Uh they are two of our First Nations, and they have a lot of sacred sites in the state.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

I feel like the whole state is sacred really and we just grid it up.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Yeah, pretty much. These cultures describe often spirits of the land, animals, and sisters, sky beans. We have had sightings of like thunderbirds, things like that over our state before. Not ACDC there. Um visitors often describe feeling heavy energy around these areas, kind of a guidance or presence, not ghostly, but more spiritual. So one of the things to know about the state of Wisconsin is we are one of the most paranormally active states in the Union, first of all. One of the part of it is our history and our history of indigenous nations, and part of it is just our geography because we are a state that was both formed by glaciers and also the water that is, you know, the Great Lakes was part of the glaciers. But like it just there's a heavy history here. And we have a lot of formations in terms of cliffs and kettles and dells and all sorts of stuff. So we also have a lot of elemental spirits here. Oh, yes, we do. And I think part of it's just because we have kind of this natural beauty to us too that is there. But I've experienced elemental spirits around my own home where we're poor.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Yes, somebody let an elemental into my house at one time too. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

And part of it is my viewpoint, I'll say it that way. When you have a state that was heavily indigenous, populations, multiple tribes, I think they have to have protectors of their land. You know, if one of the things to know about, especially the Menominee, I know for sure, they actually shared their land with settlers. They were trying to be good neighbors. And then they got fucked over. They did. So to have elementals and have spirits who are protecting that land after you've like given it up and shared it with others, I don't think that's a too much to, you know, expect that they would have that. So, needless to say, lots of different theories we've got going on here today in terms of why a place might be haunted.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Oh, and there's so many more that we didn't even come close to touching on.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

There are, and there's some overlap between them.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

And in hauntings, there's overlap also. There might be more than one reason why a location is haunted. So here's our kind of questions to you. So after exploring these 10 theories, we've got scientific, spiritual, psychological, cultural. What do you think is haunting your state? And if the landscape holds memories, what do you think those memories are trying to show you next?

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

So on that note, keep it weird, keep it wonderful, and keep it woohoo.