Ever struggled with the midnight waltz of pacing the floor, baby in arms, desperately trying to figure out the secret to a good night's sleep for your little one? You're not alone. This episode, sleep whisperer Isabella from Snugco joins me, to unravel the tangled web of children's sleep patterns. We dive into the challenges that come with each developmental milestone and offer strategies to help your tots and newborns drift off into slumberland. From building confidence in toddlers to fall asleep on their own to handling nighttime feeding dilemmas, we're serving up a hearty dish of advice, peppered with personal experiences and spiced with neuroscience.
As the sun sets on another day of parenting, are you dreading the impending battle of bedtime with your little one? Take heart, fellow dads, as Isabella and I explore the art of adjusting bedtime routines, ensuring they're enjoyable for both you and your child. We discuss the finesse involved in transitioning from raucous play to restful sleep, and how to deal with those crafty toddler tactics to avoid bed. Plus, we get real about the role of dads in night weaning and share insights on creating new sleep associations that can tighten the father-child bond. There's plenty of practical wisdom here, ready for you to tuck into your parenting toolkit.
Newborn care may be a marathon, but it's one you can prep for. Pull up a chair as we discuss the essential skills and routines that will save your sanity during those early, sleep-deprived days. We cover swaddling, understanding awake windows, and the importance of flexibility in your approach. Our conversation also shines a light on the power of parenting teamwork, particularly in supporting breastfeeding moms and helping toddlers transition to a big-kid bed. Whether you're facing nightmares or naptime negotiations, this episode is packed with insights to help you and your child get the rest you both need and deserve.
Ever struggled with the midnight waltz of pacing the floor, baby in arms, desperately trying to figure out the secret to a good night's sleep for your little one? You're not alone. This episode, sleep whisperer Isabella from Snugco joins me, to unravel the tangled web of children's sleep patterns. We dive into the challenges that come with each developmental milestone and offer strategies to help your tots and newborns drift off into slumberland. From building confidence in toddlers to fall asleep on their own to handling nighttime feeding dilemmas, we're serving up a hearty dish of advice, peppered with personal experiences and spiced with neuroscience.
As the sun sets on another day of parenting, are you dreading the impending battle of bedtime with your little one? Take heart, fellow dads, as Isabella and I explore the art of adjusting bedtime routines, ensuring they're enjoyable for both you and your child. We discuss the finesse involved in transitioning from raucous play to restful sleep, and how to deal with those crafty toddler tactics to avoid bed. Plus, we get real about the role of dads in night weaning and share insights on creating new sleep associations that can tighten the father-child bond. There's plenty of practical wisdom here, ready for you to tuck into your parenting toolkit.
Newborn care may be a marathon, but it's one you can prep for. Pull up a chair as we discuss the essential skills and routines that will save your sanity during those early, sleep-deprived days. We cover swaddling, understanding awake windows, and the importance of flexibility in your approach. Our conversation also shines a light on the power of parenting teamwork, particularly in supporting breastfeeding moms and helping toddlers transition to a big-kid bed. Whether you're facing nightmares or naptime negotiations, this episode is packed with insights to help you and your child get the rest you both need and deserve.
Howdy ho, daddy-os, and welcome to the Dad Podcast. This is brought to you by myself, kyle Graham. This is a place where all types of dads, or dads to be, can tune in, copy-geek or learn something new about life as a parent. Follow along as we interview dads of all types and undercover some wisdom to help us be the best dads and partners we can be. So get comfy and listen in your big deals, because the next episode of the Dad Podcast is about to go down. Howdy, daddy-os, and welcome to an absolute cracker episode of the Dad Podcast. I'm so stoked to have you guys around and I've been absolutely loving hearing from you guys on Instagram. Honestly, guys, it means the world to me hearing your feedback, so please keep it coming in.
Speaker 1:I'm so dedicated to providing as much value as I can for us dad-ios around childbirth and all things parenting, and this week is no bloody different, that's for sure. We're all so desperate for a full night's sleep, some more than others, yeah, but more often than not I will welcome sleep advice with open arms. I've asked the fantastic Isabella from Snugco to join us on the pod and answer all your questions around our Grom sleep time and how vital a dad's involvement in sleep time is. So welcome to the Dad Podcast, isabella. How's it week been?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's been pretty good. You know how's yours been.
Speaker 1:Really good, thank you. We're battling a shifloat of rain here at the moment, so it's tough to keep the little ones entertained inside.
Speaker 2:Oh, and that's an eternal battle with sleep in and of itself, making sure they're tight enough for sleep. Yeah, rain is like the worst thing to have ever happened to a parent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely yeah, you dread it. Hey, like you hear the rain coming, you're like, oh well, where's that list of things to do?
Speaker 2:Oh, like lockdown all over again and like there's no actual reason for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, welcome anyway.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I'm sure there's some very sleep deprived listeners drinking their morning coffee or some sort of stiff drink, eagerly awaiting your words of wisdom. So let's give the people what they want, hey jump into it. So what's the go? Why don't our kids want to sleep?
Speaker 2:Oh, I mean there's a million and one questions, yeah, and a million and one answers. Like sleep changes so much for these babies. Like their development is massive from the time they're born until what four or five like a children up until they're five, and just sleep changes every week in the first few months of life and then it changes every few weeks as they get older and then they like throw in learning to talk, learning to walk, learning to crawl, and they all impact sleep and then they get like testy when they're toddlers and they know that they can like push your buttons and so that throws in a whole other challenge. So sleep, I think, is constantly changing and the advice online and everywhere is quite mixed, so I think it's hard to know like where to go for information.
Speaker 1:Sure, so tell our lovely listeners a little bit about yourself and about Snugco.
Speaker 2:I'm Isabella, so Snugco was kind of born out of, like, my problem with finding information that was accurate for my baby when he was born. So my background's in neuroscience research and I'm like the first person at the party when someone brings up a fact to like pull out PubMed, which is a literature platform, and actually find the real answer based on some rigorous starter. And so I had my son, who was a notoriously bad sleeper and I didn't know why, and I was like on all the Instagram pages following all these people's advice and still had a baby that screamed at me all day, every day, and I just really struggled. So I think it was like four months regression territory, which is the parents that have been through it, they hated it. And then for parents that have newborns, they're like dreading the full month regression.
Speaker 2:But it was a full month regression that I almost pulled my hair out and I was crying all the time and it was really awful time actually, just because he wasn't sleeping and I decided that I needed to take matters into my own hands and do the research myself, and so I changed to become a sleep consultant. Basically, I don't really know why I decided to do it other than my own sleep for extra knowledge. But it ended up being this like beautiful thing, and I just love helping families. Unfortunately, it ends up being a lot of moms that I helped, so I'm hoping that this gets more dads into the sleep sphere. I'd love to have more consults with dads. So, yeah, that's kind of how I got into it and now I've got this beautiful community of people that I love chatting, all things sleep with awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, selfishly, I thought I would use this time your own personal consult yeah, am I potentially one of your first dads as a consult?
Speaker 2:definitely, I've had a few dads like popping in to the consult, but they're typically like in the background. It's unfortunate, but I can understand why the burden kind of of sleep ends up on the mom's shoulders, but it's something that I think would be amazing if it changed why do you think that's the case, if the burden sort of rests on the mother's shoulders?
Speaker 2:I think in the newborn days it's because, especially mom's breastfeeding they have the baby on them all the time. The baby typically falls asleep while feeding, so then the mom, like kind of naturally, is the one that's aware of when they slept. How long may she be awake? For I mean, granted, I didn't know about awake times when my baby was a newborn, but they kind of are in sync with the baby a little bit more, so then they know when they're tired enough to go to sleep they can read the cues a bit better. So then that kind of follows on as they get older that the mom is just the go-to person to know when and how to put the baby to sleep. But I think also dads are often more likely to go to work, which means that there can be an issue of the fact that they potentially need more overnight sleep, which I would question, because dealing with a baby or day is just if not more work then going to work and being able to socialize with other people. But that's sad point.
Speaker 2:I agree it's a full-on job, but I mean both things. Managing work life and a baby is challenging, but so is just dealing with a baby non-stop, and so what can often happen is dads need, or think that they need, extra sleep that's not affected by a baby, and so the mom's doing the overnight runs with the baby more often, and then again it just kind of like tumbleweeds into the rest of the baby's life where the mom finds it more of an issue that the baby's not sleeping in the dad yeah, okay, fair enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we popped Valley down with his bottle and did so with Marlowe as well, and I know that that's potentially normally a no-no, but it has worked. It worked for Marlowe, like you know, until he was ready to move into his own bed and win the bottle, and it is working for Valley. Is this a no-no?
Speaker 2:my opinion of sleep is there's no, no, no, unless it's a problem. So if they're going to sleep fine at night with a bottle and then they're sleeping and they're sleeping in whatever shape it takes isn't affecting you guys as parents then there's no issue with it. But say, who is waking every hour or two hours after that? Then it'll be like, okay, is it the bottle, is it something else that's causing that? But it would be something to consider. But no, I don't. I don't believe that there's no nose in sleep.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're cool, yeah, so we're pretty lucky. Both of our boys have slept through from eight weeks old. You, yeah, sure, I'm an asshole. I don't think you should say that out loud. I don't think anyone needs to hear that we know how good we have it, because you know there is those times when it doesn't happen and I feel like it's so much fucking worse. Because it happens like we get to sleep through and then all of a sudden we're not. We're like what's happening. It's like newborn phase.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of newborns start magically Not all, but a lot of newborns start magically like sleeping through at least like eight or ten hours from like six to eight weeks, and that stays like that until, for some babies, when they experience that four months regression, then they start waking and the parents have just had, you know, a beautiful month or two of sleep for the first time in a few months. That the regression often hits harder because it's just like you got used to a bit more sleep. Yeah, it's brutal. Yeah, I know how to. You know twist you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, we were like pretty persistent with Marlowe, like once we popped him into his bed, he would quite often, you know, realize that we weren't there when he was asleep.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he would come into our room and we were really persistent with taking him back to his bed, but then he would just come back in again.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Now we're just kind of giving up and just rolling with it, because 90% of the time it's like around that three thirty mark or whatever, and we're fortunate to have a king size bed and we're like we've got enough room.
Speaker 2:We're just like, oh, my god, are we like?
Speaker 1:digging our own grave here.
Speaker 2:I think it's the same thing. Like, if you can sleep and you're functioning the next day, then, like you know, have 10 kids in your bed, yeah, it doesn't really matter as long as I mean. Occasionally I see families who's toddler sleeping in their bed with them and the toddler can't sleep properly. It's a rare occurrence that the toddler doesn't sleep well in their parents bed and in those cases sometimes there's behavioural problems during the day that sleeping on their own might mitigate. But again, like, if you're happy with a little nudge over at three thirty in the morning and a baby in your bed, then there's nothing wrong with that. Like, I don't see many 20 year old sleeping in their parents bed still, so at some stage that's going to stop. Yeah, and that was our logic.
Speaker 1:We were like well, one day this is going to stop and we're going to be wishing that we still had it. Yeah, exactly, so we were like oh well, like you know, let's just, let's just leave it. And then plus, like we don't have to get back up, and walking back downstairs, then yeah, and that's probably another topic of conversation too he's like playing with your child while they go to sleep.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Every night we do that with Marlowe and it usually takes around half an hour after we've written a book and things like that. But he won't go to sleep by himself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very common. And what tends to happen is like, as babies under one, we focus so much on self settling and re settling and independent sleep and it's like the goal is that your baby can be put down awake and they'll sleep, like the goal for parents. I don't know where this goal came from, but it became a goal. And then as they get older and they learn that if they ask for an extra bottle of milk before bed or they need to run to the bathroom again, that you're going to obviously give them what they want and then they get extra time with you and then that means you're laying in bed with them for however long until they go to sleep. And it happens once or twice and all of a sudden it's just what they need to go to sleep.
Speaker 2:And like I go to sleep next to my partner every night. I like that. It's warm, it's comforting, like I can't imagine why a toddler wouldn't want that. I think the issue can happen with that is if the parents have other commitments at night and they don't want to be lying in the bed with their toddler. Sometimes that time gets longer and longer as they get older. It takes them like 45 minutes to an hour to go to sleep or they're just chatting, and that's when it can become a problem. And in those situations then of course you can do things to adjust how they go to sleep. And I don't know if you're going to talk now about what that looks like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:I mean in all senses of the word. When you're trying to change how a baby or a child goes to sleep and they've got one method of going to sleep and you want to change it to like method B, you just have to take really small steps towards your goal. And that sounds super abstract. But if you're at the moment, in a situation where you're lying with your toddler in bed and ideally you put your toddler in bed and you leave, you've got to figure out, like what are the stepping stones between your current situation and your goal, and you're not going to be able to likely move from method A to method B in one day, unless you want a lot of crying, a lot of fighting and in toddlers I just don't ever see that happening in one day.
Speaker 2:So you can make like really gradual adjustments and, especially in toddlers, over like two and a half talking to them, like I think we really discount the power of chatting to our kids and so just setting the expectation. Like you know, I lie down with you every night and I really love lying down with you, but I need to get some things done this afternoon. Do you think I could lay down with you until you're really calm and really relaxed after two books. You can choose the books and then I'm going to leave and go and do my thing and some toddlers are going to respond quite well to that because you've set it up and spoken about it, whilst others need even smaller increments of time. They just need to know that you're not going to be there when they fall asleep, but you're going to be just in the next room and if they need you they can call out. Others need a little bit more. I don't want to call it mind trickery, but they need.
Speaker 1:Call it whatever you will, as long as it works.
Speaker 2:Like it's called, what's called a pop out. So say, you're lying down with your toddler and I always suggest talking to them about the fact that you're going to be doing this, that you're going to give them extra space to go to sleep, and you think it's going to be better for them. And you know how amazing is it that they're so brave that they can go to sleep on their own and you know, building up that kind of confidence that they can go to sleep on their own. But we can make those steps to make that more progressive. So say, on day one we're going to leave the room really briefly, for like 10 seconds. I was going to say I'm just going to go to the bathroom and I'll be right back, and you're just going to leave the room, stand outside their door and go right back in and when you go back in, like make a bit of a fuss, like oh, I'm so sorry for leaving you for a period of time, but look how amazing you were. You stayed in your bed, like that's amazing, I'm going to cuddle you again. And then, like a few minutes later, you leave again, but it's for like a minute this time, and then you keep kind of going out for progressively longer periods and some families like to do this really slowly, where you only pop out for 10 or 20 seconds two or three times on day one and then you slowly increase it over days, whereas other families, like you know, want to go in to the kill on day one and will leave until they're asleep and that may mean that you're leaving the room for like 30 minutes because you say you're going to go have a bar and you'll often find you'll come back and you'll tell them they'll be asleep. But the I guess the important thing in all of that, with that expectation and talking to them about it, is that you say, even if you're going to leave the room and they may fall asleep in that time, that, no matter what, you're always going to check on in on them once they're asleep.
Speaker 2:And a lot of kids now with all the tech like the proof. So some parents like take a selfie with their baby once they're asleep and the next day you can show them like look, I'm, you know, I came back and I checked in on you and you're asleep and it's so amazing that you did that, like you're such a big boy, how amazing. And they just need that confidence, like a bit of a confidence boost, because the idea of going to sleep and going to sleep alone Not only can be scary, but it's so abstract. How does a toddler know how to fall asleep? That's a really bizarre concept that they need to know that they're going to lie in their bed and they're going to close their eyes and they'll stay in their bed quickly, and so that kind of process can often help. But there's so many different ways to tackle sleep, but that's a good one that you can kind of go at your own pace and go at your toddler's pace too, yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:I really like the idea of because Miles loves looking at photos of us, and so Susie said that was a great idea, because I think that we're kind of at that stage where it would be like we'll just leave the room for like small increments because he's fine with us. Like if we sort of say, hey, I've just got to quickly grab something, he doesn't kick off or anything like that. He's like, oh okay, you know worries and we come back. So I think, yeah, that's a really cool idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as long as you're like coming back and you're not breaking any trust, like they're old enough to know, like you can trick them too and they don't want to be tricked. They want to trust you and you want to be able to trust them. And like you're building that rapport with them and treating them as like a mini adult in how you approach the expectation that you're setting with them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, I think earlier on, like both Jaz and I definitely used that I'm just going to go to the toilet and I'll be back and then probably not go back.
Speaker 2:Well, for some kids that's not an issue, but for, like, when they reach like three, four and they're like where were you, are they right out of bed constantly. I've got a few of those too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like that's that's what that did to us as well. I reckon that's, yeah, set us back a little bit Our own fault really. So I love putting my boys to bed, but Marlowe in particular only ever really wants Jaz to pop in down and that makes it really hard because you know like I really want to do it but then Jaz also wants a bit of a break sometimes, but Marlowe tends to kick off and I really, you know, try to keep it really calm and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But generally just snowballs and he just like it's worked up more and more and more, and then that's right before bedtime and. I just don't like want bedtime to be like that for him. Any tips to get around?
Speaker 2:that Definitely. How often are you trying? Oh, every day. Oh, really okay, and is it just I'm going?
Speaker 1:to be like you don't want to play any more.
Speaker 2:And when you're starting the process, are you doing like his full whatever you do like bar routine with him and he just knows that it's you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean sort of like bath and we just usually like whoever's cooking dinner with the other person doing the baths and like baths first and then Valleys, we just give them a bottle, he's out White noise done.
Speaker 1:See you later Done. But yeah, marlowe's, it's up for like another, maybe hour or so after Valleys and we try to just sort of keep it crazy like there might be a little bit of a show and then and then it's like switch off. You know, maybe a little card game with us or something like that and then a book.
Speaker 1:So generally that card game, all that time is both the verse with him because it is that like a bit of just us time with him, yeah, but then you know, once we're in the room it would be either myself or Jazz is doing like a book and maybe, like he likes to listen to music, like he does twinkle, twinkle and stuff and then some white noise as well. But he doesn't. He doesn't need the white noise on all night, he just likes to fall asleep too.
Speaker 2:So Does he ever fight it with Jazz, or it's just you?
Speaker 1:So this is the thing he will go to sleep really fast with me most of the time, but with Jazz he'll drag it out.
Speaker 2:Okay, interesting. So it's obviously like put two different forms of bedtime with both of you and like how that process is going to work. It's almost like if you have a kid that goes to daycare and some kids can't nap without you lying down at home, but at daycare they're like totally fine to lie on a stretcher and go to sleep. They just fully understand that they can fall asleep in two different ways, in two different scenarios. And typically I mean something that could be potentially quite helpful for both of you is like and it sounds kind of intuitive a lot of quite hands-on rough play before bed.
Speaker 2:And I know that you know we obviously want to wind up babies down before they go to bed so that they're prepared for sleep. But often, especially when dad sometimes gets involved because often dads are more like playful with the kids, more like rough that they are going down to bed with you and they're anticipating that kind of rough and tumble play and they're not getting it so often getting it out beforehand also gets out a little bit of extra energy that they could use to fight you when they're not going to sleep either. And that could also work with Jazz as well, like if he's taking ages to go to sleep with her. He'll be more tired if he's had like a really good kick around or wrestling match or like been thrown in the air. As long as they're like obviously doesn't affect your other son's sleep if he's like down the hall, yeah yeah but that can be really helpful.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing, like I mentioned before, is these expectations.
Speaker 2:So really talking through with him that like, okay, tonight's dad's night and I'm gonna help you go to sleep, and you're such such a good sleeper that you're gonna go to bed so well with me, and what book do you want to read?
Speaker 2:And like putting it in his hands is like he is such this amazing little boy and he's so good at sleeping that he's good at sleeping with anyone and he's gonna show you how amazing at lying in bed and relaxing he is and you're gonna be there every step of the way.
Speaker 2:But that's like one way that he could do it for you. But another thing is having like a special dad child bedtime ritual that makes it like extra special when he goes to sleep with you, and that may be a special book or a special toy, or you might have something that you guys do just the two of you anyway during the day, and it might not seem that it could slot into bedtime that easily, but if he like gets excited about something that he can go to bed with with you and it often makes the process a lot easier, but I would, you could also just try doing it non-stop every night for like two weeks. Yeah, okay, with the expectation and like, and jazz never comes in and you deal with it, then he just has to go to bed with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, that's also like the hard and fast yeah okay, I reckon you're right with that, like he would definitely be attracted to that. You know, fun time before bed and whatever, and I do see that in his personality is that whenever someone is he's just, you know, playing with him, whether it's toys or playing some Lego or something before bed or at any time, he's just glued to them so yeah, it's a really good idea.
Speaker 2:It helps to regulate their nervous system, often actually so like helps their body to stabilize more before bed, which is can be really helpful yeah right, yeah, that's really cool to learn.
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Speaker 1:So we've attempted to drop Marlowe's a day and a half oh, that's gonna help you so we've tried to, but he just becomes this gremlin at like day three or something, when we when we try that like how do we, how do we sort of start that process?
Speaker 2:great question is he four? Yeah and how long is he's not now?
Speaker 1:oh, it can range. I mean sometimes just like an hour, and then if we can see that he really needs it, like he's really tired man might have had a couple of days where he didn't have a day nap or something we might let him sleep for a little bit longer or if it helps us to get some things done, you know whatever, but yeah, that's kind of it what time does he wake up and what time does he go to bed?
Speaker 1:normally, if things went to plan, he goes to bed at about seven, okay, and he'll get to sleep usually around. It'll usually take about half an hour, like 20 minutes half an hour and then he pretty much wakes up.
Speaker 2:When we wake up, you know where, it's like six, six, thirty a word or something so naps are an interesting one in toddlers and I think we get so used to like this beautiful two hour lunch nap that a lot of babies and children end up having and it often starts to disrupt sleep.
Speaker 2:So to be honest, when I see like three, four year olds with a one hour, occasional two hour lunch nap, like their night sleep would be awful, so he obviously needs extra sleep then maybe the average toddler.
Speaker 2:But to drop a nap which I would actually recommend, that it might make bed time easier for you all, would be to do it quite slowly and you sub out the time and the nap with like quiet time and he may like reading or he may like arts and crafts or whatever it is, but you can try and find like an activity that he can do alone that's not that stimulating to replace the nap time and typically if he's quite sensitive to the nap time, I would drop it by like 15 minutes every few days to give his body kind of time to recalibrate with extra time awake and less time napping and try and just promote that quiet play until you get to like a 15, 20 minute nap. And then that's kind of where it gets tricky, because even 15 minutes for any a baby of any age is so helpful at like bridging the gap of Tiredness.
Speaker 2:Yeah but then I would just basically, once you get to 15 minutes, stop offering it all together, which is daunting, but, yeah, once you've replaced it with quiet time, they can have like an hour or two in the middle of the day that they spend doing their thing, and it could be in their room. They may like to sit down and like read. Some babies get given iPads and things and it's actually not that disruptive to them, which sounds crazy. But anything that's kind of relaxing is really helpful, and what you can do in the intermediate, when they're not used to not napping, is make bedtime a little bit earlier so we may go to bed, you know, like six, six thirty, which sounds so early, but it'll only be temporary if he gets used to not having that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay that'll make sense. We'll keep you girl, I'll let you know it's easier said than done. That is for sure. So we opened up to both of our following on Instagram for our followers to ask anything they wanted. You know, in terms of getting their kids to sleep, and staying asleep and breaking is a bad habit. So I thought, if it's okay, I would just start shooting those through to you and let's do it yeah okay, let's go.
Speaker 1:So our boy is 13 months, is up every one to two hours and we'll only settle with a feed from mom ideas brutal.
Speaker 2:I don't envy you with wakes every one to two hourly. Typically it's an issue of I mean, there's quite a few problems that could be happening, but with feeding every week what could happen is that your baby just starts to get used to like consuming the majority of their calories overnight, probably aren't drinking as much milk during the day, probably not eating that much during the day, and at 13 months we kind of want to move towards focusing on solids as to ensure that they're not deficient in any nutrients at all. And so what can happen when it's called reverse cycling, when you consume your calories overnight and not during the day, is that they're waking every one to two hours because they're genuinely hungry and they want that food, which is problematic in and of itself. And then what could also be at play is iron. So iron is a really important nutrient that, especially if your breastfeeding babies don't get enough of it above six months old, their iron stores from being in the womb have depleted and so formula fed infants. It's not really an issue. And then once they babies eating solids, then they can often get it through food.
Speaker 2:But you have to quite it's quite hard to actually focus on it, because iron is an interesting Nutrient and it comes in such small quantities in food unless you're eating like red meat every few days and at 13 months, when there's reverse cycling going on, often there's without adequate solids.
Speaker 2:Then you're struggling with iron intake as well, which can cause those night wakings. So I'd kind of look at flipping the whole calorie consumption of the day first off, and the way you would do that is basically push out this time between each feed Overnight. I like to jump immediately to four hours between feed, which sounds crazy, but you could try like two hours first and then resettle until you get to the two hour mark and then the next day do two and a half hours and slowly that will be pushed out to be two feeds a night when they're four hours apart, and then hopefully you can just push one to morning, doing the same method, just like setting a new goalpost every night and resettling until that point, and hopefully they'll eat more food during the day and that will solve that whole problem, hopefully one thing that we did with both boys actually was.
Speaker 1:We just have a bottle handy of Formula as a top-up. Yep and I know with both boys were really lazy feeders as well. So we said to like try and keep them awake and it's again when they're waking up every one to two hours. It's quite countin two of them to be like wake up you know, you gotta keep feeding and it's so exhausting, for obviously you know the mum to be breastfeeding every one to two hours, you know, so it's very easy to slip into, and it's probably been going on for like a year.
Speaker 2:Yeah like torture.
Speaker 1:Okay. Is it true that if night weaning, sending dad in will mean baby can't smell milk?
Speaker 2:Okay, I've actually looked for the research for like babies being able to smell milk on their mums and like nothing conclusive, obviously, because like how they're gonna Ask me whether it's not. But I have found in my clients that Sending the dad in when you're trying to night wean is amazing and I don't know if it's because of the milk or if it's because sometimes dads can be more Stern with the process because they don't have often as close of an attachment to their baby crying as the mum does. But it can be really helpful even just to resettle for that period. It's like send the other parent in, especially if the dad's less sleep deprived than the mum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's one thing that you know I always put my hand up to help out with. Was, you know, doing a feed of a night time or something? You know Like, I think, especially early on, where you feel as a dad you feel a little bit helpless because you just like, well, I can't breastfeed, I can't, you know, and Bob's just like literally Eating, sleeping, shitting. So yeah the only choice you really have is changing that, these and Density if there's a bottle around, you know, or someone's body.
Speaker 1:You know, use the bottle and did you find it?
Speaker 2:I know my partner when I had to win issues of feeding as well and I had to pump and breastfeed and he got to feed our son lots of bottles at the beginning and like get quite emotional about it, because I think it's just as bonding for the dads as it is for the mums when you breastfeed. Yeah, I loved it and still do like you know, putting in our kids to bed, you know like I just, I just love that time but you can throw it to them now, though, like cats yeah.
Speaker 1:It's pretty funny. Sometimes we just hear the bottle kind of get thrown out of the car so like that done Because we just have floorboard Like good mate. So has asked how come so many dads can sleep through a baby crying. I think she was just being a bit of a smart ass with that one.
Speaker 2:Although I mean. There's a lot of things in my life with my baby that I almost feel like I've adopted the stereotypical, like male response to baby things, and one of them is I Sleep, like through the crying, way better than my partner can yeah, I great like yet to say same with us, like I'll.
Speaker 1:I'll be like, oh, values awake. And then just like what, why'd? You wake me up, just got going on, yeah yeah, you didn't hear that right.
Speaker 2:My partner's like lying there wide awake me, like giving me the elbow, saying, like you know, if you just feeling a good back, I'm sticking this out Right through it, yeah, go get the bottle mate.
Speaker 1:Our 20 month old has always gone down at bedtime so easy. But the last month has been yelling our name until one of us go in points to the floor, so we have to lay on the floor next to the car.
Speaker 2:Dilly falls asleep you go there, yeah.
Speaker 1:Usually 30 or 40 minutes. We need not new idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, often I mean again, it's like what I said to you bedtime issues often can come around with Requirement in like shortening the lunch nap. Often if you shorten that it means that they're more tired bedtime, so the like requests and demands lessen. But also it could be about just talking to them, saying you know, I'm gonna lie down here for 10 minutes and here there's a timer on my phone because time again very abstract. Yeah, or I'm gonna lie down here and sing you these three songs that you love and then I'm gonna leave the room or do the pop-ins, just kind of like providing a metric to how long you're gonna be in there. That's applicable to a toddler that doesn't understand three minutes is three minutes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that sets some kind of healthy boundaries as well, that they learn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know as well, outside of sleep. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:So two-year-old not settling for hours, day nap and night nap, feel like I've tried everything.
Speaker 2:Help. Do you want a consult? There's gonna be so many things going on there. I wonder if they nap ever Like. Are they just not sleeping day and night?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds a bit. Sounds like a good idea Not settling for hours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe send me a DM for that one.
Speaker 1:Where can she find you?
Speaker 2:Oh, my Instagram is snugcosleep.
Speaker 1:How do we stop the 50 million excuses not to go to bed so we have similar excuses I'm hungry, I need to go to the toilet, I'm thirsty. Yeah, I just have to do this. You know, like a thing, or?
Speaker 2:I really need to put the washing on dad. It's really crucial that. I do the washing before I go to bed.
Speaker 1:Finally. That would be welcome. Yeah and you know what actually just follow the washing. That's fine, because in this house washing gets done and dries, but it doesn't sit there. Yeah. Pack and put it away Exactly.
Speaker 2:The million request is such a common toddler sleep problem and it does. Just again, toddlers, whilst they vary so much, they come down to like a few very simple strategies, like the expectations. So, just chatting about if their thing every night is like a mixture of three, if it's hunger, food and they need to go see their teddy bear, that potentially on the first day you're going to talk to them and say you're only going to do one of those things. Or you know, every night you, you always ask for water. So I'm going to leave this thing of water next to your bed but I'm not going to refill it once you're done because I know you've had enough water. You know, just talking them through that process and catching them before you're then chasing your tail at bedtime.
Speaker 2:But then the really important thing with these toddlers is following up. So if you're setting an expectation, you need to hold that expectation because if chances are with the water or the hungry, thing is that a few times you did give in and just gave it to them so that they would go to bed and they learnt that if they push hard enough they're going to get it. So those first few days you really put the boundaries in place for what you expect for them at bedtime. It's probably going to be a brutal for a few days. So you know, hold on for the ride and then in a few days it should be better. It's typically like three or four days until you see a pretty substantial improvement.
Speaker 1:Okay, that sounds good. I'm going to give that one a go too. Is it okay to use the Santa Claus threat to help you clean in their own bed at night.
Speaker 2:I mean like Santa Claus is outside or is watching. Oh. I mean if it works, it works right. Are they in bed at night?
Speaker 1:Yeah, are you sure?
Speaker 2:right. I mean, I've seen things online about like issues with using threats like Santa Claus, because then eventually, I don't know, they recognise that that's a lie and you're been lying to them. But like, also, they're so young and you've just got to do what is going to get you guys through the night, and I think that's also there's a lot to be said for parental mental health around sleep. So if Santa Claus works, it works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, getting using it, cam what should we be doing with newborns in terms of routines and associations?
Speaker 2:Just as big a topic as toddlers newborns. They're the biggest topic in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like day one, yeah, like what would you suggest with someone to I would actually say like pre day one.
Speaker 2:I think all parents kind of we let ourselves down in this department and it's like part of the reason I became a consultant is because most families prep every day for nine months for a birth that may or may not go as you planned and then maybe, if you've had good advice, you prepped for breastfeeding if that's something that the mum wanted to do. But prep for any kind of newborn care is gone over typically very quickly in like an antenatal class, maybe like 30 minutes to an hour, and then you kind of throw it in the deep end and you've got this baby that needs to sleep and then you'll take your baby home on day one. They'll likely sleep non-stop for like three weeks and then wake for feeds overnight and during the day, but then it all kind of gets turned on its head when they become more alert because they have this build up of melatonin, which is the sleepy hormone in their system from being in the womb, and then that wears off when they're like three, four weeks old and then you've got this very alert baby that you need to try and get to sleep. But often parents don't realize they need to try and get their baby to sleep. So I would kind of say, in the newborn realm, prepping before you even have the baby is amazing, because then you go into this sleep deprived haze it's the newborn bubble with tools and techniques that you already know how to use and you don't have to like try and figure it out from Instagram or Google about how to put your baby to sleep or even that you need to put your baby to sleep.
Speaker 2:But then, once you've got a newborn, I think the crucial things in terms of like, the things that you need to know are how to swaddle a baby, which is number one, and you can learn that from the midwives at the hospital. They're amazing know what an awake window is and what that looks like for your baby. I mean, I know that I turned up to my first mother's group meeting when my baby was like six or eight weeks old and I made a joke to like break the ice of, like oh, who knew that you had to put a baby to sleep and you had to try, thinking that, like I was going to be the mum, that it was ridiculous that I didn't know that and everyone, all the mums together, were saying we had no idea you had to try to put your baby to sleep. You had to put effort in in order for that to happen, and so I think learning strategies that you can try because every baby's going to be different to get your baby to sleep, and knowing what that looks like and, yeah, with the awake windows, knowing when to try, is going to be really crucial. And then every family is going to vary in terms of whether or not they want to routine.
Speaker 2:I've worked with parents that want to routine from week four and I've had others who don't want to routine for their 10 months or baby and it's. You can kind of go with what is right for you and your family, as long as you accept that under three or four months old, a routine may be hard to achieve to the time every day, but it is definitely something that you can work with if you've got the tools to know how to resettle your baby and how to settle them and, yeah, and what that looks like. But I think the newborn days are just kind of survive it mentality.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you would agree no, absolutely, yeah, I, I do recall both boys, especially that first week is. Just you should do whatever you can. You know like yeah, yeah and. I think the the quicker that you sort of come to. Oh yeah, even if you educate yourself, knowing that those first few days night times are not going to be fun it's just like.
Speaker 1:It's just not going to be fun. So, like you said, if you prepare yourself and educate yourself on that, it's not going to be a surprise or a shock and yeah think what the fuck of us are not to.
Speaker 2:I do a lot of actual like newborn sleep classes and the number one question that I get from parents is like how much sleep am I actually going to get or how much am I actually going to miss out on? This one would be the better question and I think expecting parents either think that they're going to be up every 30 minutes overnight or awake for like six hours a night and then me that sleep deprived because there's zero sleep overnight. All parents think like, oh, I'll be up once for a feed. That will take 10 minutes. My baby will go back to sleep.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of like unrealistic expectations about what that looks like, and I mean, if any of your listeners are expecting, it'll probably look like waking every two to four hours for a feed that will probably take you an hour to be awake for. So yes, you are missing out on sleep, but there are chunks of time and there are so many things you can do to enhance how much you sleep for in the newborn period by bringing in the partner I don't know if you ever did like relief bottles or like sending the mum off to bed so that she can get some sleep while you're up with baby, and so many strategies that you can use to get extra Z's around newborn time.
Speaker 1:We definitely did. You know, just take turns or you know whatever. But I mean at the start, when, in particular, when Jaz was just breastfeeding and that's all we needed to do and there was no top up or whatever it would just be during the day, just reminding her to go and rest or whatever you know like seeing those signs of exhaustion. Yeah, just urging her to go and have a rest, especially when baby's resting.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely I think it's so hard, but when both parents are at home, like even just filling up the water bottle and just spoon feeding food down their mouth, is a huge help, because often they're tied to the couch and tied to a baby, that any form of self-care which I know self-care is meant to be like going and getting a facial, but in the newborn bubble it's being able to have a shower and go in the toilet alone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and a water bottle. Just keep filling it up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a huge water bottle.
Speaker 1:Any tips for transitioning from cop to bed, especially in your shared?
Speaker 2:room. So many tips. I would wait until your baby is as close to three as possible. They don't have the impulse control to not jump out of bed a million and one times before three, and so you can, unless they're like jumping out of the cot themselves, then obviously you need to move them. So if you've got the luxury of time, then I would keep them in their cot for as long as possible and then, once you do move them, especially in a shared room, it's like all things toddler you want them to be, to be really confident in the transition, and so, whether that's buying a toddler bed together and they can choose it or they can choose the sheets, making sure that they have a comfort or something that's a part of their routine already in the new sleep space can be really helpful, and with a shared room it can be tricky sometimes if they are struggling with the transition in terms of the other child that's in the room and getting them to sleep, but often it's just about lots of chats about what is going to happen, making it really exciting.
Speaker 2:So, whether you want to be like, oh, it's such a big kid bed like you're like, how big is that bed? Can't believe you can fit in that bed. Oh my God, that's crazy and like really building that up for them and yet making it a special transition to. But that's kind of all you can do at the end of the day, especially if they're moving rooms at the same time, because that can be quite big. So just keeping consistent routine around them as well.
Speaker 1:Sure, some great tips out of stuff. A toddler needing us to lay on the floor or is it? Sleep, wakes up scared at 3am.
Speaker 2:Oh, waking up scared. That's an interesting one, because if it's a nightmare and they're waking up because they've had a bad dream, some parents can really like feed into the nightmare, like, oh, what were you scared about? Oh, that's, that's so scary, how scary. And they're trying to make them feel better because they don't want the nightmares to feel like they're alone in that. But often then you're just validating the fear, and so what can be really helpful is acknowledging that they're feeling scared, yeah, acknowledging that process, but at the same time telling them the reality of the situation.
Speaker 2:So if they had a dream about a really big monster that was like really I keep saying like the monster was scared of them, but that wouldn't be a nightmare.
Speaker 2:But this monster, that was huge and you know, maybe it was chasing them or something, and obviously monsters aren't real. And so what you can say to them is oh, that sounds really scary. If I had a dream like that, I'm sure that I would have woken up as well. But you know that monsters aren't real, which is really great. So we can roll over and I'm going to pat your back and you can go back to bed, and then, if they don't bring it up the next day, then I wouldn't bring it up again. But if they do want to talk about that fear, then you want to just kind of reiterate the same conversation over and, over and over again and validate their feeling. But let them know it's not real. And then a really amazing tool is just telling them that if they have a nightmare, but if they roll over, the dream goes away. And I don't know why it works, but it works.
Speaker 1:It's reset.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the dream changes when they turn over, so they can just roll to their side and the dream changes. Or you can also talk to them before they go to bed about what dreams they're going to have that night. That aren't scary. They're going to dream about I don't know popcorn and chocolate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sounds much nicer than monsters, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:Oh, monsters that are scared of you.
Speaker 1:Do you need some sleep too, Isabelle?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:So I think that we've nailed it. People are going to be happy and sleep well this evening, so I hope so. Yeah, do you think that there would be anything else that we should cover off on? I mean, it's kind of hard without jumping into a meeting with you or an appointment with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think for your audience, potentially the most important thing to remember is that, like with all things parenting from a dad's perspective, that jumping into sleep and being involved in that process and never assuming that the mom if it's your wife or your partner is the best person for the job. I think it happens all the time that we see that dad's like, oh, but you know, she's so good at it and so much better than me, and they go to sleep so much faster for her. But I don't know about any other parent out there, but I think that settling and resettling if you're in a dark room with a white noise is fucking mind-numbing, and so any support you can get in that process, even if it takes them longer to get the baby to sleep, everyone will get better equipped at getting that baby to sleep over time, and so I think any helping hand that anyone can get in the sleep department is just what I'd like to promote. So get in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome, easy brother. There's been some absolute perlers there for everyone. So thank you so much for joining me on the dad podcast today. I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your knowledge. You know around the hot topic of kiddies sleep, so I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me. I'm so glad I could be here for you.
Speaker 1:And if someone would like to book in an appointment with you, I just contact you on your Instagram.
Speaker 2:All through my Instagram or my website, but everything is on the gram to be able to find it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what was that again? Just in case people missed it snudcosleep S-N-U-G-C-Osleep. Sweet. Okay, thanks so much, isabella. Have a lovely rest of your day Appreciate it.
Speaker 2:You too Sleep well.
Speaker 1:Yes, I will now anyway. Thanks so much for tuning into this episode your bunch of legends. If you enjoy the show, could I please get you to show me some love by subscribing and leave a really nice review, Also for loads of extras and to stay up to date with all things. Dad podcast. Head on over to dad underscore podcast on Instagram and give us a follow. Huge love to you all, DaddyO's. Catch you soon.