When Joe and his wife embarked on their dream to become parents, they never imagined the hurdles they would face. Today, Joe shares his intimate tale of overcoming male infertility, including a raw look at his genetic condition and the emotional landscape he navigated. Together, we follow their path from the shock of diagnosis to the joyous laughter of their eight-and-a-half-month-old daughter, Ellie. It's an honest reflection on the hardships of starting a family and the resilience required to keep moving forward.
Navigating the often-overlooked issue of male infertility, our conversation uncovers the complex process Joe and his wife underwent when considering sperm donation. Joe candidly discusses the inner turmoil of choosing between known and anonymous donors, and the impact of these decisions on their future child's life. We also delve into the rare specialty clinics that cater to male infertility and the logistical intricacies involved once a donor is on board. Joe's story is a testament to the perseverance of the human spirit, providing solace and understanding to those facing similar battles.
As we wrap up our heart-to-heart with Joe, we're reminded that the journey doesn't end at conception. Raising a donor-conceived child comes with its unique set of experiences, and Joe opens up about fostering an environment of openness and honesty. Highlighting resources like the book "Three Makes Baby," we underscore the significance of including a donor in a child's life narrative. It's a celebration of the shift towards sharing these once-private stories, the embrace of a supportive community, and the camaraderie among parents in the dad bod community. Joe's experience offers a beacon of hope and empowerment for those charting their own courses through the joys and challenges of modern parenting.
When Joe and his wife embarked on their dream to become parents, they never imagined the hurdles they would face. Today, Joe shares his intimate tale of overcoming male infertility, including a raw look at his genetic condition and the emotional landscape he navigated. Together, we follow their path from the shock of diagnosis to the joyous laughter of their eight-and-a-half-month-old daughter, Ellie. It's an honest reflection on the hardships of starting a family and the resilience required to keep moving forward.
Navigating the often-overlooked issue of male infertility, our conversation uncovers the complex process Joe and his wife underwent when considering sperm donation. Joe candidly discusses the inner turmoil of choosing between known and anonymous donors, and the impact of these decisions on their future child's life. We also delve into the rare specialty clinics that cater to male infertility and the logistical intricacies involved once a donor is on board. Joe's story is a testament to the perseverance of the human spirit, providing solace and understanding to those facing similar battles.
As we wrap up our heart-to-heart with Joe, we're reminded that the journey doesn't end at conception. Raising a donor-conceived child comes with its unique set of experiences, and Joe opens up about fostering an environment of openness and honesty. Highlighting resources like the book "Three Makes Baby," we underscore the significance of including a donor in a child's life narrative. It's a celebration of the shift towards sharing these once-private stories, the embrace of a supportive community, and the camaraderie among parents in the dad bod community. Joe's experience offers a beacon of hope and empowerment for those charting their own courses through the joys and challenges of modern parenting.
Howdy ho, daddios, and welcome to the dad podcast. This is brought to you by myself, kyle Graham. This is a place where all types of dads or dads-to-be can tune in, cop a giggle or learn something new about life as a parent. Follow along as we interview dads of all types and undercover some wisdom to help us be the best dads and partners we can be. So get comfy and listen in your big deals, because the next episode of the dad podcast is about to go down All righty guys. So on this week's episode, we're discussing a topic that isn't often spoken about, especially between men. It's a topic that often isn't even thought about when considering starting a family either. Today I'm speaking with Joe about his journey to fatherhood, the heartbreak and the euphoric joy at the end of it, making it all worth it. So welcome Joe, welcome to the podcast. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me on. You're very welcome, mate. So how are you and the family?
Speaker 2:We're great. So we've got so, my wife and I, and then we've got a little girl, Ellie, and she's now eight and a half months old. She's about to get up, I think. I'm looking inside there and I haven't seen signs yet.
Speaker 1:What time is it there?
Speaker 2:So we are at 7 am here in Adelaide and, yeah, she'd usually be up around now, so I'm expecting any minute. Yeah, she's just at that really, really fun age where she's lots of smiles, starting to crawl, lots of babbling, just lots of fun, Starting to interact a lot more, which is great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, beautiful. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a teacher. I've been a teacher for I think 16 years now a primary school teacher. So, yeah, just enjoy that job. It's lots of fun. It's holidays now just started holidays, so as much fun as it is, it's also exhausting, so it's nice to have a break as well, For sure.
Speaker 1:Did you say primary school teacher?
Speaker 2:Yeah, primary school teacher, yeah, Bought all the grades but, yeah, currently have year three, which is a lot of fun From the country. So, from Wagga in New South Wales, um, currently live in Adelaide. Um, yeah, and just into my sport, uh, into into some exercise and, yeah, pretty normal other than that yeah, yeah, very good.
Speaker 1:And, mate, obviously you've got a bit of a story around um, I guess, your journey to fatherhood and things like that, and it didn't come as straightforward as most. Can you share with us a little bit about your journey to becoming a parent?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, so always expected that it would become the normal way and very straightforward, but quite a few troubles along the way. So my wife and I probably I'd be probably six years, five, six years ago now we were just fairly recently married and decided we'd my wife's pretty proactive and so she's like let's just we weren't even trying. She's like let's just look into the kind of feasibility of us as parents and it's something that we both really, really wanted. Obviously I work with kids, so love, you know, being around them, and she's just a very mumsy sort of figure, so something that we wanted. And so we just kind of both went and got some tests just to check, kind of how likely it would be and how easy it would be.
Speaker 2:Hers came back all good and she was kind of the one that she was kind of worried about whether she'd have a problem. And then, yeah, I was just expecting everything to be fine and then came back and it was like saying that there didn't seem to be, you know, much viable sperm um in a test. So it's a bit kind of taken aback. But then they obviously do a second check. So I went in and did that, yeah, and that confirmed the same thing, so, um, it'd never been a thing that I'd had on my radar I think can you share with us how you felt learning about that.
Speaker 1:You know those results.
Speaker 2:It would be shock and denial. I think you're just kind of again not expecting it and you think that I've never had any real health issues at all. I had three shoulder operations from rugby, but that's it. Self-inflicted, exactly. So I'm a pretty fit, healthy individual and just expected everything to be fine.
Speaker 2:So then it was, yeah, definitely just denial, blocking it out until, yeah, we just let it sit there for a little bit, both pretty sort of like shocked, and then went into a fertility clinic just to find out what that means and kind of where's where to from there, and then we found out that I had, I have, what's called micro deletion of the y chromosome, which is just a just a genetic condition that you know, just means that that's how my body, you know what it does, and that's not any particular cause or anything. Obviously, my dad was able to have kids and I've got a brother who's got one and one on the way, so he's not affected. But just, yeah, unfortunately for me, that's the way it was. Yeah, so then we could fly to Sydney. We got off, said that we could fly and see a specialist in Sydney and they could do like a last-ditch effort of you know, going in and having surgery to try and retrieve what they could to use. What's involved in that?
Speaker 1:process.
Speaker 2:The thing of going up and having an operation where you pretty much get cut open down there and they try to go in and see what they can retrieve, and then you'd obviously be able to make embryos from that after your partner goes through IVF as well. So it's a pretty full-on procedure and it's a pretty small chance of it being successful. But we did do it. We're like let's do whatever we can. So did that and yeah, that's pretty. That was probably the hardest point in the whole journey is, you know, you spend all that money literally in a whole world of pain and then the doctor sitting there saying, yeah, sorry, it didn't work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So at that point you're just like, well, you know, heartbreaking, heartbreaking, yeah, that's your last roll of the dice and you're like I don't know, what do we do now?
Speaker 1:yeah, and so we're pretty shocked um at sharing things with our mates and and and speaking openly and being vulnerable like how is? How did you cope with that news?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, I'm the same, I'm no different, and this has taken me a long time. The fact I'm talking to you, yeah, I think it. I don't think it would have happened, uh, maybe when I was in the process. I think, easy talking to you now, after we've kind of gone a different path, but we have, you know, a beautiful daughter inside. But I think at the time I let a couple of close people in and I think that was really really helpful and I think the more I talked to those people, the easier it was for me.
Speaker 2:But it was actually really hard to let those people in, yeah, and I think there were some people that I kind of knew what was going on and then they asked me some more questions and I think sometimes as guys, we don't want to intrude and we don't want to. You know what I mean and it was actually for me really helpful for those people just to say, oh so what's this and what does that mean now? And like I'm someone that feels like they don't want to overstep the mark. So I'm someone who doesn't want to pry, but I think sometimes just asking a couple of extra questions can be really helpful. Yeah for sure, because then I knew I had, you know, two or three people that I could kind of update with what was going on, and yeah, yeah, feel like you weren't going through it alone.
Speaker 2:and yeah, talk to some people and also just having there's a couple of good you know Instagram accounts, a couple of potties I listen to of guys that were kind of in the similar spot.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Just hearing that you're not the only one out there. Do you remember the name of those? So Pursuing Fatherhood is one on Instagram. That's probably the main one. There's one other one I can't think of right now. No that's all right. But yeah, if you look up also on the podcast, I looked at a couple of like male infertility and would just listen to anything, anything to make me feel like it was a bit more normal and I wasn't the only one going through it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, was there any sort of like aha moments that you had found, either on these social media pages or podcasts that you listened to that made you think, well, hey, I'm not the only one going through this. This is more common than we probably think. Was there anything that you listened to that helped you?
Speaker 2:You look at the stats, I think I'm a teacher but I specialize in maths, that's my main passion. And yeah, I think it's one in six couples suffer from fertility issues or go through fertility issues, and of those, it's one-third are on the male side, and so that's for me. I was like, well, it's more common than what we perhaps talk about. And then you can dive further into kind of the condition that I have. It's less common, obviously, than those stats, but it's still more common than what I thought might have been the case. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, um, yeah, so yeah, well, um, I guess it's, it's not. I guess it's simple, as, as you're just going through this procedure and then, um, just finding other avenues, like what was your next step after you found out that news? What, what were the options, what you know what, what sort of um, how did you educate yourself to work out what was the next step?
Speaker 2:yeah, so the next. So we knew, going in, we kind of had um, some options after um. So we kind of you prepare for the worst but hope for the best type type thinking. So after that the options were either to go look at adoption as an option which we were open to, but it's also a lengthy process and quite an expensive process and I think the average year, average timeframe looked at about seven years perhaps for adoption in Australia. Wow. So that was something we talked about fostering as well as being something, but we thought that would be very hard to give. You know, I take my hat off to people who are in foster roles.
Speaker 2:And then it was probably like it was going to be a donor, to use a sperm donor in the process. And after we tried the surgery and it didn't work, then we just went into a grieving period really where we put the brakes on and didn't do much. Really I think it was for probably six months to a year. We just felt like we were stuck and didn't know what to do. We kind of talked to some clinics around donor options and explored a fair bit in that world and you could look at anonymous donors. So there's a bunch in. You know there's a lot of American organizations that you can use, but through Australian fertility clinics and that seems to be a pretty straightforward process and you're given lots of choice. But my wife wasn't really keen on that. She wanted to use if we're going to use a donor, she wanted to use a donor that our child would be able to meet pretty easily in the future. So then it was a well, if we're going to use a donor, do we know anyone? And how do you even ask that?
Speaker 1:yeah that.
Speaker 2:So then we probably spend another I don't know six months just playing around with that question. Yeah, because I don't know. Like you said, as a guy I can't can't even talk about you know, let alone asking someone. Yeah, if they were willing to do that and so you obviously found one.
Speaker 2:So how did that all come about? So we did try it. So we actually went through. We went into the clinics, looked at the anonymous donors.
Speaker 2:My wife really wasn't happy with that process. For some people it would be great, it'd be the perfect path, but for us, like I said, she wanted someone a bit closer. Yeah, then we just played around with different people. We did kind of like a short list of people we could ask. The other thing was that she was very keen to have someone that kind of had similar, keen to have, um, someone that kind of had similar features to me. And it wasn't and that's not to kind of pretend that, um, I'm the biological father, because we want to raise our daughter knowing that you know we used a donor, yeah, um, but it was.
Speaker 2:I think she looked at some research that said that the um, the child, will feel, you know, more of the more like part of the family unit if there's similarities in, in looks okay, yeah, so then that was another challenge. It was like looking at our short list now, who has some sort of similarities to, to me? Um, and yeah, and then we went back and forward for ages and then she thought of just a. It was actually a guy that she worked with in the past and he's very open-minded and lovely. Like I met him before, and him and his partner turned out to be open to it, he's a great guy. We've met them a couple of times in the process just to talk it through. I couldn't be happier. They've just been amazing.
Speaker 1:A couple of steps back when you're going through selecting these IVF clinics and things like that. Is there one in particular that specialised in male infertility, or is it just more of a I guess you know IVF clinic as a whole, because I'd imagine it would be, you know, quite specialist. Just, you know, looking at male infertility, it seems to be more commonly spoken about you know female infertility, but yeah, when you look at the stats, it's it's. It's equally as common.
Speaker 2:So um in terms of the the operation I had, that was like a specialist um in ivf australia, in sydney, yeah, um. But in terms of like your just general fertility clinic, yeah, I didn't come across any that were specialising in male infertility. It was, yeah, 100% right. It was very much felt like a female-focused kind of organisation or the ones that we went to. So, yeah, I didn't. I mean, once you get to that point and you have your donor and then you go through you know some processes of you have to do some mandatory counselling and there's some other steps involved along the way. But I didn't yeah, I don't think I didn't talk to anyone around the male side of things necessarily.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yeah, I did a quick sort of search online and things like that. I just could not find anything. No, the doctors that I did find looked like they were over in the Middle East or something like that. Yeah, but yeah, definitely not locally, you know, or within Australia anyway. But yeah, and so you found a donor eventually. What's the process?
Speaker 2:from there. So the process so once you ask, once you build up the courage to ask and they're open to it, then what's the next step? Then the fertility clinic gets in contact with them. They do some tests, which I mean that's probably there's more, for we found that there was more involved for the donor than we initially thought. So just making sure that they're really on board and happy to go through the process, so they'll do a couple of tests, just check that everything is good for them and they're gonna work in the process.
Speaker 2:And then you do two counseling sessions, so one separate, where someone will talk to them and like, just just talk through the process, check they know also the legal sort of ramifications of being a donor. And then you do it. You have to do a face-to-face counselling session where everyone's in the same room. By that stage you've had a bunch of conversations and you know what's involved and the legality in terms of you know the rights to the sperm, rights to the embryo, rights to the child, if everything's successful, and that's all important, obviously. So you want to make sure um, and the great thing also the counselors really ask questions that you wouldn't have thought of.
Speaker 2:Sure, there's sometimes that things come up where you're like oh actually we haven't talked about that yet. Was there anything in particular I'm trying to think of right now? I think of like and it's worst case scenario, but you're looking at like if something happened to my wife in this process, but you know an embryo had been created. Who has the rights to that? Do I have the rights to it? Does don't have the rights to it? Does no one have the rights to it? Just like they look at every eventuality and think of you know, just make sure you've thought about these things yeah, how did you go in the lead up to asking your um your wife's uh colleague?
Speaker 2:well, she did yeah, okay, you stayed out of that one. I was quite. You know, to be honest, I was quite. I just I just wanted to be a dad. I thought she'd be a great mom. I just thought, um, whatever donor we end up using, um, I'm sure we'll be great parents and we will be their parents, um, so I was a bit more. Let's just do it. Um, and that's uh, she's probably more like that in real life, but um, um, and I did appreciate also her thoughtfulness to it and I think you know the, the um end result we got to is perfect. So I'm kind of, in a way, now glad, that kind of, where she was a bit more thoughtful and really considered in the process. Yeah, um, yeah, because I think we've found you a great match and really we're going across to Sydney later this year and we'll take Ellie across for her first birthday and we'll meet up with the boys as well and they'll get to meet her. So, really looking forward to that as well, yeah, that's so good, that's so good.
Speaker 1:And did you have to find someone, or was it still IVF Australia that sort of facilitated that donor and that process from there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we used a local fertility clinic and they so in Adelaide here. Once IVF Australia did the surgery. That didn't work. That was the end of our sort of relationship with them. And then we actually had to get the eggs from the IVF procedure because that was all happening at the same time as the surgery. Sure, in case it went. You know, if it was successful then they would have created the embryos right there on the spot.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it wasn't. So. Then they froze the embryo, the eggs, and then they had to get shipped to adelaide, um, and then the whole process happened in adelaide, which was, you know, uh, slightly more complicated because our donors in sydney and so a few things like the face-to-face meeting and stuff he had to fly across. We flew him across and we did a little wine weekend and did the meeting together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, and so it happened first time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, luckily, I think we had seven embryos and once they were thawed, I think, or seven eggs, whatever it works, but once everything was thawed, I think there was only one remaining. After the seven we had Wow and yeah, that worked, wow, yes, and if it didn't, it would have had to go through the IVF process all over again. So very lucky.
Speaker 1:So I don't know much about the IVF process for females. But can you explain a little bit about that process too? You don't know much about it.
Speaker 2:I can give my best, yeah, yeah, you'll probably listen to this and tell me every part that was wrong, but it's your experience, yeah um, yeah, so it's over a period I have to do injections, yeah, and that's sort of like stimulating egg growth.
Speaker 2:I'm, I'm thinking, yeah, and then, um, so, and that's it's quite an intrusive process. Um, but she was a champion, um did that, and then they can get, and then they go in and they get their eggs removed. Um, so the IVF process is just a stimulation of of all that, and then your eggs are removed and a lot of people can get them frozen and then they can be used later on down the track, um, through the thawing of the eggs. Sometimes some are lost as well, though. So there's that process as well. Yeah, so if we were to so let's say that attempt wasn't successful then, because there were no more eggs left, nat would have had to go through that process again. Yeah, sure, yeah, because we've still obviously got the donor sperm available, we'd have to use the again. Yeah, sure, yeah, because we've still obviously got the donor sperm available, we'd have to use the eggs. Yeah, okay, which would have pushed. You know, that would have taken a fair bit of time as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so not an easy process at all that you guys have gone through you know and lengthy, and COVID was happening in the middle of it, so that didn't help with, you know, being able to meet people and it just slowed everything down.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that old thing, yeah. And so from there, obviously, obviously, yeah, things were successful. And, um, yeah, tell me a little bit about the pregnancy. How did all that go?
Speaker 2:um, yeah. So I think it was pretty normal, straightforward pregnancy in terms of nat carrying um, ellie, um, so she was a bit sick early on, but then that's pretty typical, yeah, and then, yeah, I think she really enjoyed the rest of the pregnancy. She also lost her mum in pregnancy, not in giving birth to her, but to giving birth to a sibling that would have come later, right. So that's another kind of layer to our whole story that it was always going to be a complex pregnancy, even if it was, you know, your normal straightforward pregnancy, because there's that layer of trauma as well involved in it.
Speaker 1:I can only imagine.
Speaker 2:How old was.
Speaker 1:Nat, when that happened.
Speaker 2:She was like in her teens, early teens Horrible, yes, when that happened. Uh, she was like a in her teens, early teens. So, um, yes, so that was always going to be hard later on all the fertility journey, um, and so we wanted the most kind of like predictable and straightforward pregnancy that we could do. So, you know, a scheduled c-section, yeah, and we're really happy with that decision because kind of went in and then what? 35 minutes later Ellie was out and there was no you know no alarm bells going off in the pregnancy or anything. It was just straightforward.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, we're really happy we made that choice and you obviously went through a bit of a heart-breaking journey, I guess you know, in terms of you know, finding out the news of your infertility and things like that, and then finally to come to this point where you guys are pregnant with a child. Can you like share with us what it was like for you guys in that moment to just yeah.
Speaker 2:I didn't. I mean, I honestly didn't believe it. Yeah, nat gave me, she bought me a little mug that said like what was it like? Said like particular milestones about being, you know, husband and then dad and and you know the dates. And I and I just looked at it and I was like it's not true, like we've been waiting that long. I was like I don't believe it until that baby's out, like yeah, and and I like I don't think perhaps I didn't enjoy the pregnancy as much as I should have, cause I was just, yeah, I was in denial and just scared that it wasn't going to be true. Like even up to the very last minute, I was just like it's not yeah, until that baby's out, I don't believe it.
Speaker 1:And did you find like any difficulties in terms of connecting, I guess, while bub is still in the tummy and things like that? Like I mean, I know, I know I did and I didn't go through what you did, so, um, yeah, you can like. Can you share a little bit about like how you were through the through the course of the pregnancy?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think so. I didn't think about it at the time at all. Yeah, now you're raising that. I, like the whole, I definitely didn't ever initiate the feeling, the tummy and all that sort of thing. And even when Nat asked me to, I'd do it but didn't feel particularly connected during the pregnancy. And yeah, like you said, it happened to you and it was probably even more so with me. But I, like I said I didn't, I just didn't believe it. I was just, I was just waiting for something to go wrong. Yeah, I mean, many things go wrong already. I was just like, well, you know, every scan you'd be like, okay, I'm believing it a little bit more. Yeah, but not until and I haven't had an issue at all since ellie's been born like bonded with her straight away. Yeah, in the lead up it was just like, yeah, you keep telling me you're pregnant, but I don't know if I believe it yet yeah, yeah, no, I could only imagine.
Speaker 1:So while you were, I guess, going through this process, how long did it take? What was the entire journey to get to this point where you've got a bug in the tummy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that would be four years, four years, four years until Nat was pregnant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay, and so obviously you're turning up every day as a school teacher as well. How did that affect you? How did you feel?
Speaker 2:I guess. Yeah, yeah, that was hard.
Speaker 1:I bet.
Speaker 2:You're turning up every day surrounded by kids, knowing that you might never have a child. Yeah, yeah, that was, and I think it affected me more than what I admitted at the time. Yeah, I went through a year, a particular year, where I wanted to leave teaching and I blamed it on, you know, kids' behaviour and other things, but I think that whole battle that I was having was, yeah, really feeling like you lost your joy for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, it's just rubbing in your face every day really. So, yeah, the same as like. We tried to stay off social media because all you'd see is you know child pregnancy announcements or pictures of you know first birthdays and second birthdays, and it was just like a slap in the face every time you saw one.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, If you could tell yourself anything like you know, like you've gone through the journey. Now, if you could tell yourself something four years ago, what would it be?
Speaker 2:probably two things. One is that there is a path and it just might take longer, but if you really want to be a dad, then you'll get there, yeah, um. The second thing is that you know if you have a condition like I do, it's just like having, you know people have all sorts of medical issues. It's just like that and there's, you know, nothing wrong with you. It's not just an unlucky, you know hand that you dealt. You can just push on and find a different path and you know you might be thankful that you don't have another medical condition. It's, you know I'm fit and healthy and you know I'm really thankful for that yeah, yeah this is something I've had to find a different path with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure for sure, and so um pregnancy went relatively well, c-section went relatively well, and little Ellie arrives into your world. I can only imagine that yourself and Nat were just completely besotted at that point in time. Tell me a little bit about life as a dad now.
Speaker 2:Oh, loving it. I wish I could just stay home and someone could pay me my wage just to hang out with her all day. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Good yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So yesterday my wife went to work and I just had the day hanging out with her, and that's what we've been doing most Saturdays. So, yeah, I really look forward to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just the best. So, like I said, said she's at that real playful age, so loving that, um, and yeah, I mean we've got a, we've got her and the dog and we've got a park nearby, so we're over there a fair bit and just looking forward to now. I'm kind of looking at other like uh, friends with their kids and I'm looking at their like kids' ages and getting an idea of what to expect in three months' time, in six months' time, in a year's time. Yeah, yeah, I literally was talking to Nat last night being like can you imagine when she's five? Like, can you imagine when she's 10, 15?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's pretty crazy. I often have those thoughts where I think, like our eldest, he's six years old and and you know, I see some older kids and you just don't like often just drift into these thoughts of like, oh wonder like what path he's gonna go down, like what, what's he gonna be into? You know, um down the track and yeah, yeah, it's just so awesome to just kind of sit back and watch them. You know like, watch them make their own decisions, like, even at like the nine-month-old. You know, like our youngest is at that age as well and, you know, quite often it's just so funny, it's just like you just love watching them.
Speaker 2:Oh, I do just sit there and watch them. It's like last night we just like had the TV off. We're just sitting there watching her for about half an hour. I'm like this is the best TV show ever.
Speaker 1:I could imagine that you guys would have plenty of those moments where you just sit back and watch, you know, in awe of what you've created. I think.
Speaker 2:I probably feel. I'm sure every parent feels blessed, but I think I feel particularly blessed and I think I wanted two or three kids initially and now I'm like I don't care, we might try again, but I'm just so happy to have one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, happy to be in the moment right now. Yeah, exactly yeah. And you mentioned earlier too that you guys are very open to Ellie having a relationship with their biological father and things. Yeah, like what. I guess what was the conversation that you guys had around that and I guess, yeah, what your thoughts were for the future for Ellie?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that was. There's a fair bit of research involved in that and I think there's been practices in the past that haven't been ideal um and read about, um, you know, donor conceived children and having no idea who their biological parent was, and that can be really um affecting to them. So we wanted to not go down that path. So we thought, if possible, just having that relationship, if you know the child and the donor wanted it, just being able to kind of make that a reality if possible. There's a book, three Makes Baby um, that's worth reading.
Speaker 2:If that's something that people are interested in, yeah, I'll put a whack it in the show notes, yeah, and that that just talks about kind of having that, that person, as part of the the um, the child's relationship, if they want, I mean, they don't need to. Yeah, I know that I'm his dad and that's the most important thing for me, but I also think it's it's important for her to know, kind of the path we've taken and the journey we've been on and how wanted she is, because we've had to go through so many different twists and turns to get there.
Speaker 1:So for sure, yeah, yeah, I think it's important to I think you know, and like things are compared to when we were kids, these things would just never be spoken about, you know, and as our kids become young adults and things for them to learn the process that you guys went through and maybe understand it a little bit more and things as well. I think it's just us starting to, you know, open up and be a little bit vulnerable about our feelings and things. And you know, when our kids listen back on this and understand what it is that you went through and the just the sheer joy of um, you know them, I guess, coming into the world, it's just, it's just something that I just can't believe that over the years, people have just kept under wraps, you know, and obviously it comes from a place of not not wanting to be vulnerable at different times and things like that too, like, but, yeah, I just think, um, yes, just such a good thing that we're, we're talking about it.
Speaker 2:You know, funny saying that because my wife um, she was interviewed by someone fairly recently and there was an uh, an article published in the newspaper around our journey, yeah. And then we went online last night and someone had written isn't anything private anymore and then about 15 people had commented below just ripping this guy to shreds. Good on them. Yeah, I know it was like great, get back in your corner, gary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's always a Karen mate. There's always a Karen Mate. I just wanted to thank you so much for coming on the show and being open and vulnerable. You know being brave enough to share your story, so I can only imagine this will help some of those sort of one in six parents in Australia going through that similar journey, you know.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, really appreciate your time and, yeah, thanks for coming on mate pleasure and, yeah, I just encourage anyone who is kind of you know, in a similar situation to to reach out. You know, if they get in contact with you, feel free to pass them on and I can either recommend readings and sites or I can just, yeah, have a chat with them and hopefully be of help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that that's awesome, mate. Well, whether you like it or not, you're part of the dad bod community now, so we're all a band of brothers, you know, helping everyone to get through these sort of things. So, yeah, again, I really appreciate your time, mate. And yeah, good to know, and I'll keep working on the dad bod then, yeah, well, I'm trying to cut it off. You know, going to Bali, you need the dad bod, you know, in a good shape, around the pool.
Speaker 1:Okay, mate, we've got to be fit, we've got to be like, basically, marathon runners to look after these kids. That's true, that's true. Yeah, nah, awesome mate. Well, well, uh, yeah, again, appreciate your time pleasure. Thanks, mate. Yeah, thanks so much for tuning into this episode, you bunch of legends. If you enjoy the show, could I please get you to show me some love by subscribing and leave a really nice review, also for loads of extras and to stay up to date with all things Dad Podcast. Head on over to at dad underscore podcast on Instagram and give us a follow. Huge love to you all, daddy-os. Catch you soon.