ICommunicate Radio Show #166: We Are All Salespeople

In this episode of ICommunicate, Company Founder Mark Altman is joined by Chill Executive Officer of LEAD, Kyrah Altman, to discuss how nonprofits can generate leads through intrinsic motivators, differentiate from other organizations through vulnerability, and remain self-reliant for funding, all without diminishing their value or sacrificing their mission.Segment 1: When people think of nonprofit organizations, one of the biggest questions that come to mind is: how do we sustain success through self-reliance? How do we convince people that donating money towards a nonprofit is a worthwhile investment? How can salespeople serve human needs as opposed to selling a service?Segment 2:Every sale begins and ends with a story -- one of hope, determination, passion, and eventual triumph. How can we relay these stories to potential leads in a way that demonstrates the value of our product and our team, ultimately influencing their decision to do service with us? How does unconditional vulnerability affect a client’s perception of our business? Segment 3: Running a nonprofit organization becomes especially difficult given how rapidly employee wants and needs are developing -- nonprofits can’t always keep up with the benefits that people expect. What can nonprofits do to make potential employees understand the intrinsic value of working for them? How can nonprofits handle and build off of rejection without altering their mission? Segment 4: Although nonprofits tend to shy away from the same tactics that salespeople use, it is still essential for them to educate people on what makes them unique and valuable. How can nonprofits offering up free samples of their product or service generate clients without diminishing the value of the organization? How can we stay determined through failure and know when to adjust our differentiators?

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

One and only Kyra Altman, the Chill Executive Officer of LEED. Hey, Ted, back in your day, was anybody have the title Chill Executive Officer? Is that a common title back in your day?

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Uh yeah, but that was in the frozen food department.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

That's great. Ted, I don't even know why I'm saying back in your day. I'm not that much younger than you are, so I don't even know where I'm going with that.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Well, this is, you know, a visual radio station, so I'll change my voice for you. It's been a long time.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Yeah, that's great. That's great. So, all right. So I brought Kyra here. Uh we had a show, we did a couple of shows together a while back, and we love doing the show together. And um, Kyra, so happy to have you. And Kyra, I let's just give our listeners a little context. Can you just give a brief overview about LEED a little bit just so they understand what you do? And I would love for you to speak even more so about why you're so passionate about what you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Sure, yeah, and thank you for having me. I'm excited to be back. Um, so what do we do? Well, we work with community organizations, many of which work with youth or serve youth, as well as companies and really big entities and enterprises, and we help them craft solutions to promote the mental health and inclusion of their employees. So basically, what we're doing is we're providing education based on their needs, their challenges, but also based on their strengths and with a lens of human services and social justice.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Wow, that's a lot. And so, Kai, you know, I would love just why why are you so passionate about this? I mean, you and I'm not just saying this because you're my daughter, I'm saying it because it's a fact. You have been, your company lead has been a pioneer nationally in spreading mental health message in camps, sports teams, uh, corporate companies.

SPEAKER_02 1:56

So so how do you think so LEED has actually created the first nationally, um, the first of its kind in the nation mental health certification for the workplace, for summer camps, for sports teams, professional, and youth, as well as for schools. So we are really leading the industry and disrupting a lot of industries at the same time. I would say I'm passionate because as somebody that has been living with PTSD for 20, 20 years almost, I understand that while my PTSD and what I went through as a very young person was not my fault, it is my responsibility to find a balance and to heal and to recover and to seek that mental health for myself. It's hard, it's really terrible at times, but it's incredibly rewarding and worth it. And I want to give other people the opportunity to also know that they deserve happiness, wellness, and then have the skills to actually obtain it.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, and so tap the mic. And so one of the reasons I brought Kyra on the show today is because Kyra is very unique in the sense that she runs a nonprofit, but the knock on nonprofits, Kyra, is usually, stereotype or not, is usually that nonprofits don't really get that they have to sell themselves. And before I ask you the question, I want to give our listeners some context, right? Because when I think nonprofit, I think of nine times out of ten, a great cause. Okay? So if you have a nonprofit, you have some kind of mission that you are trying to pursue and get people bought into. The problem I see in nonprofits, Kyra, is that they fall in love with their cause. And they think everybody not only will just get it the same way they get it, but they forget, nonprofits often forget that people have a pool of money that they're going to spend. And whether it's cancer research, donating blood, mental health, you know, stemming gun violence. There are so many issues. Of course. I only have a certain amount of money I'm going to give to nonprofits, and you have to convince me why your nonprofit is where I should give my money.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

So I think that this is a critical conversation, and I think we have to take a step back first. And I think the step back is, yes, nonprofits don't know how to sell and they don't know how to be sustainable. But the reason for that is because the nonprofit sector as a whole doesn't value the people that work for nonprofits. They don't value paying people who do well. They don't value giving health benefits and supporting the mental health of their own employees. So the problem is we have nonstop burnout across the sector. And we know that nonprofits that rely on grant funding actually have employees with worse mental health, which is why, even though LEED is a nonprofit, we're structured as a social enterprise and are not reliant on grants at all for that reason. So the first thing is getting nonprofits to understand that you want to make money, but it's actually to support your people. It's not just the mission that matters, it's the people that are actually doing the work, and it's how we do the work that matters just as much.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

So, Kyra, I remember having a conversation with you. I don't remember exactly how long ago. I'm gonna guess it was I don't know, maybe three, four years ago-ish. And I remember in that conversation, we were talking about sales, and I was like, Kyra, if you want to grow your company, you have to sell. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't love sales. You never really love sales. So how have you kind of balanced your not really loving sales, but understanding it's the nature of the beast?

SPEAKER_02 5:44

So it's interesting because my degree is in human services and public health. And there is actually a lot of crossover from the public health field and motivational interviewing and many of the topics that you often talk about on iCommunicate and sales. And a lot of people don't know those connections. And so what I would say is it's less like even at lead, our sales team, they're called our community outreach advocates. And that's because we're not selling, we are learning what the client needs, what their pain points are, and then providing a solution. And if you look at it in that way, every salesperson is also serving human beings and serving a need. And you could even say, as a human services professional, which now that brings us into a whole other conversation about why salespeople don't have more emotional intelligence training, because you are literally supporting people that are coming to you with a need or a challenge.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yeah, it's funny. And Ted, you know, if you think about sales, I mean, you have such a background with this. If you think about something for a second, one of the most common lines I hear salespeople make is I could sell anything if I believe in it, you know, if I really like it, which which always, whenever I hear that, it begs the question. So if you're selling something you don't believe in, then you're not necessarily an authentic person, because if you don't believe in the very product you're selling. So, Ted, when I think about the mindset of a salesperson, I think Kyra hit it right on the head. You know, if you frame it in a way where you're being pushy and aggressive and have to put push something at someone as opposed to, no, you have a problem, I have a solution, I genuinely want to help. Ted, why why do you think that's a mindset struggle for a lot of people?

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Well, first of all, if you are in sales, your job is to fulfill a need with a product or a person that's gonna make it happen. What's different in fundraising is you need to determine that your target shares your concern regarding the issue. So the product in this case is like a stock or a bond or a financial instrument. It's not tactile. So it it gives the salesperson at a fundraising organization a bit more of a challenge because it's not tactile. You can't touch it, you can't feel it, you can't put it in your pocket and take it home with you.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Go ahead, Guy, you want to say something about that?

SPEAKER_02 8:29

So I think that as far as nonprofits go, 99% of them are incredibly small, maybe one or two employees, and when they do fundraise, they fundraise very small amounts because they're asking friends and family and inner circles. The 1% of nonprofits, like the Red Cross, when they fundraise, they're getting million-dollar gifts, right? So fundraising for them works because they have the platform, they have the donors, they have the history. In my opinion, which is definitely not always the most popular opinion, should be fundraising at all. I think instead they should be looking for sustainable ways to generate revenue that can then sustain the organization. So let me give you a quick example. Lead is a very fur baby friendly organization, right? My first dog from many years ago was our first mascot. My other dog now is the new one. All of our fur babies, our team's fur babies, are literally on the Meet the Team page. So you can see all of our cats and dogs on the website. With that said, we worked with an artist on Fiverr to pay$2 to get a custom created vector graphic of someone's animal. We charge$25 of a donation for it. And then all of the completely passionate, ridiculous pet owners like myself, are gonna pay$25, get a graphic of their pet, they can put on literally anything, a t-shirt, a mug, whatever, and we are only losing$2. You know, that's a$23 profit right there. And that is what I believe nonprofits need to start doing being smarter with what their ask is and actually bringing value to the donors that are giving.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah, well. Can I um can I offer just a way to make it more entrepreneurial or entrepreneurial is to think of that$2 as your cost. Correct. It's it's not a loss, it's your cost. And you gotta spend money to make money.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Oh, yeah. So But a lot of nonprofits don't always have even that money to begin with to spend, which is why we need these entrepreneurial ventures. We need more of that social enterprise B Corp model that so many nonprofits are scared of or don't believe in because they think that people should just give.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

So, Kyra, can you educate our listeners? Because I don't know that a lot of people are familiar with what a B Corp is. So could you just quickly educate what that is?

SPEAKER_02 10:55

So LEED identifies as a social enterprise. We are technically a 501c3 nonprofit, which means we can get the best of both worlds. We can get donations, we are tax exempt, and we also, because of how I have built it, are self-sustainable and don't rely on donations or grants. A B Corp is a for-profit company, so it's cannot receive donations, but it has a social mission. So you can think of like Tom Shoes would be a B Corp. So you can do that as well. And many for-profits do have a social good kind of branch. One minute. But at the end of the day, right, like I would rather be able to take that random surprise one million dollar donation and then also be sustainable and support the well-being of my team and get the best of both worlds.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Okay. So when we come back after our first break, we're gonna we're gonna talk more about this and we're gonna get into the concept of we're all salespeople, individually or as an entrepreneur in an organization. We're gonna talk about when Kyra first realized when she was a salesperson and whether it was subconsciously or consciously, and we'll talk about that when we come back. So for i Communicate and Kyra Altman, I am Mark Altman. We'll be back after the break. Okay, welcome back to i Communicate, and we're talking about we are all salespeople. So, Kyra, I want to go right into this. So, whenever I have people ask me, Mark, who are your biggest competitors at Mindset Go? The typical person thinks other companies, right? And I don't see other companies as our competitors. I see companies valuing spend on professional development as our competitor. So I don't I very, very rarely lose a deal because they said, Oh, well, we went with somebody else. It's because, oh, the the C-suite team didn't value professional development, they didn't want to spend. So when you think about differentiating lead, mental health as a whole, you know, how do you approach differentiating mental health, whether it's from other nonprofits, whether it's the spend, whatever? Like what are your biggest barriers in differentiating lead?

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Well, I will start with our biggest differentiator is our focus on action over awareness. So it's not just raising awareness on issues, but it's actually giving people the skills to move forward, to change attitudes, to adopt new behaviors, whatever. And it's even taking many mental health therapeutic techniques and giving them to the everyday person in a non-clinical way. So it's really about access for us and making mental wellness accessible to the general public. With that said, um our biggest barriers to differentiating, or I guess our biggest barriers to selling to companies is exactly what you said. It's just getting them to value it. In fact, most of the training that we do in the corporate space is diversity, equity, and inclusion training. And most of that is also, if I'm being really honest, pretty performative and optical simply because companies feel like they have to do that now versus they even want to.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah, and so, Kyra, we can't race over something you said because not only is it to me one of the biggest differentiators in the space, it's something you and I are very much in sync over action over awareness. And I can't tell you, and you've heard me say this a hundred times, I can't tell you how often I've listened to a speaker, a trainer, and I sit there for an hour and a half, and they're like, Well, here's some things that would be valuable, and here's some things for you to know. And I'm like, tell me what I can do. Give me a couple of things to take away, habits, tools, whatever. So that is a big differentiator. So, Kyra, but in the mental health space, when you're selling, are there certain habits and behaviors that you do when you're selling to someone, presenting to someone, influencing someone that you would say to our listeners today, hey, if you're a nonprofit, here's a couple of things I do to make sure I am remembering to differentiate or sell my services or products.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Sure. So I would say it's a little bit um niche just because we because our focus is mental health, so much of our sales strategy is also actually caring for the mental health of those that we work with. So it's sending virtual gifts every month to our clients, or it's sending care packages, or it's asking our clients or prospective clients on a call, how are you really doing today? And what is your mental health like? Or how are you arriving to this conversation? So I think for us, it's really just walking the walk and like taking our mission seriously and embodying it in our entire culture, not just in the product or the program that we develop. So that, though, is very mental health focused. I'm not sure if that's the best answer to your question.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Aaron Powell Well, but I also heard you say it's a series of questions you're asking. You alluded to it in the first segment.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

It's validation, individualization, and using a strength-based approach too. So it's not just saying, oh, so here are all of your problems, it's also saying, and this is where my human services background comes in, what are your strengths? How can we leverage those and use those to even maximize the long-term impacts of our programming?

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Okay. So let's take a step back for a minute. Sixth grade. I know this is a long time ago for you. Sixth grade, you on your own come up with the idea of doing a uh tell me if I'm getting this right, Kyrie. Every paw counts dog walk.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

So this was a fundraiser, just real quick, the It was a fundraiser for the Canines for Disabled Kids Foundation or nonprofit. Um and basically I had to get permission from the city to host this public event.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Okay. Well, and you had to get donations.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

I had to get donations, I had to get permission from the city, I had to find um performers and even like a DJ for free or cheap. Um now, I will say as a fifth grader, it was a lot easier to get people to be like, oh, look at this cute kid, you know, doing good things. That definitely helped, I'm not gonna lie. But I will say that beyond that, beyond just the oh, look at this cute kid, the real selling came in trying to continue that conversation afterward and trying to continue the progress and the impact that we had made.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

Okay. But but when you did that event, what is it at that age, if you reflect back on it, what did you use that because you were selling, right? All those things you just said, getting a DJ, getting a performer, you had to convince them.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

I used emotion, I used storytelling, I used um personal experience, lived experience, and I also connected with the donors on not only love for animals, which is clearly a theme in my life and my organization, but also just wanting to help support young people who can't otherwise afford service animals. And that was the whole kind of mission of the nonprofit that we were fundraising for. And I think, again, me being a young person, but also the mission involving young people, that also helps because people resonate with that. People want to help young people. Honestly, I wish there was more help for for adults out there, but you know, so that was I I think a big piece of it.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

So when you talk about storytelling, that's a biggie, right? Telling stories. And so but how did but I don't know. How did you know at that young age the value of telling stories and playing on emotion? Like, how did you know that?

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Like you just I had lived with you for a few years. I mean, like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Ted, she's being too nice.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

I um I I don't think I even knew it was storytelling. I think as a fifth grader, I was just speaking my heart, you know? I was just saying what mattered to me, why I thought the world needed it, and people resonated with that. I think so much of sales is really just being authentic and being vulnerable yourself. So, like, for example, when my team asks a client, hey, how are you really doing? They usually answer and expand more than they ever usually do. And then they'll ask it back and we answer honestly. I have told clients, you know what, I'm really feeling tired today, or I'm really not feeling my best. And we don't worry that that's gonna scare people off because we know that authenticity and vulnerability actually connects people. Um, so I think that that's it's just being your true self, which is scary, but it's helpful.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

So you've had opportunities during the development of lead where you would have had a lot of excuses to quit and give up, like where you weren't getting the progress or traction earlier on that you thought you may have got.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

I've also had multiple people tell me to give up explicitly.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

Not me.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

No.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Um so, but in all fairness, you know, in those times, you have to discern do I believe in the cause? Do I believe in our mission? Well, you've always believed in the mission, but I I guess the cause, that's a sales step, right? Because if you're not generating enough revenue, those times when you had doubts, how were you able to say, no, we got this, I'm sticking with it. And because you've grown, your company's grown so much today. So how did you stick with it? Why were you able to stick with it?

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Yeah, I mean, as an international organization now, I I think honestly, I think it's because of the quality of what we provide. And I think it's the testimonials. We're very big on collecting data and feedback, and we're very big on getting testimonials and feedback from clients and and even just recapping with them to learn how we can improve the next time we work with them every single time. And because of that, I think that we I have I have heard so many stories of people's lives being saved and changed due to conversations and training that we've offered and complete communities, their cultures being shifted in significant ways. And I think that even when we were making no money and we were a team of very small, the impact was still very big. And that impact is only amplified now, but it that impact I think is what keeps me going because I literally see firsthand what it's doing to the world.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

So Kai, as you've expanded lead and added more people, and you bring on people, whether their full role is a salesperson or their partial role as a salesperson, my question to you is we started the show today talking about the mindset of someone who goes into a nonprofit. They don't think sales, they don't think growth, they don't think outside the box entrepreneurial strategy. How have you shifted people's mindsets to realize the importance of differentiating? Has that been hard? And is it something you're very mindful of knowing that the typical nonprofit person doesn't think like that?

SPEAKER_02 21:40

I actually think that that's changing rapidly, especially due to the pandemic. And I think, and also just the great resignation in general. I think a lot of people are realizing that these systems are really not helpful for mission minded people that want to work in nonprofits but then get burnt out and are not cared for. So actually, when I have been hiring over the last few months, we've gone From a team of two to seven in six months, which is pretty exciting. In that time, I have seen so many people who are mission-minded, but also want to make a lot of money and want to have benefits and want to live a happy life and not be shamed for it.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Really?

SPEAKER_02 22:16

Yeah. And so I actually am seeing this shift. Now, it doesn't mean that it's it makes our job any easier. It's still tough to do the work that we do and to settle, but I it's a lot easier to justify what this is our cost, this is our price to clients, knowing how much we value our products, our programs, and also how much we value our people.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Well, that's very interesting.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

It's been fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

And I got to tell you, when we come back for our next segment, so this is this is I want to tease this, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Trevor Burrus, people want a lot now for their job, and they should.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

So nonprofits can't keep up. So Kyra, as you know, I'm a national speaker on generational communication. And so the reason why what you said is intriguing is because you said things are changing where people, what I heard you, my interpretation of what you said is the younger generations are more driven, more aware of wanting to make money. When if you asked older generations, they would be, if they heard you said that, be like, what introduce me to those people. So when we come back, we're going to talk a little bit about generational communication, and I want to explore more of what Kyra's finding out because I think that's a very interesting topic to our listeners. So for iCommunicate and Kyra Altman, the chill executive officer of LEED, I'm Mark Altman. We'll be right back. So I just have to share an interesting conversation Kyra and I are had going into the break about people. And Kyra was our friend Jasmine's in studio, and Kyra was talking to Jasmine about how you know my dad loves people. He's always loved people. And you know the reality is I do love people and have always loved people. It's just as I've gotten older in the last, say, 10 years or so specifically, I've become more accepting of people. And the hardest thing I think for human beings, and Kyrie and I were just talking about this yesterday or two nights ago, is to not be judgmental of people. And when people disappoint you and they let you down and don't meet your expectations, boy, it is so tough in those moments. And I think that's what I'm constantly working on. And that's why I think I'm good with people, because I'm constantly working on myself and being more accepting and not being judgmental as hard as that is. And in sales, Kyra, it's funny because there is such a crossover for mental health and sales because, and I'm not even talking about we're all salespeople crossover. I'm talking about that sales emotional intelligence, when you talk about motivation, I mean you're getting ghosted and rejected in sales all the time. So from a mental health perspective, and and Kyra, this is funny. I've never said this to you before. So if you're a sales executive and you have people on your team that aren't making calls, aren't you know, aren't satisfying the activity goals that they're supposed to be done. So what if that conversation, what it looks like is typically if you work for me, it's so Kyra, I noticed you haven't been making as many calls this week. You know, the goal is 25 calls a day, you need to make calls, as opposed to, geez, Kyra, all of a sudden you're not making calls. I'm curious as to why that is. And very often it could be because people are sick of and you know what it is, well, there's also a lot of call anxiety in millennials.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Like millennials don't like being on the phone. All right, well, so period.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

We'll get to that in one second. But just to finish the point, it's not just rejection. It's not just being ghosted, it's the lack of instant gratification. Because most of the time when you call someone on the phone these days, you get a voicemail. You don't even get a live person. So there's so many deterrence mentally to even want to make those calls. Whatever age you are.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

And that rejection piece is that much worse in the nonprofit sector for nonprofit sales type people, because usually, if you are working for a nonprofit organization, you personally align with that mission in some way. So it's not just a rejection of your nonprofit, it's a rejection of the mission. It's fair. And potentially even a rejection of you or people that you love. Makes sense. And so that's also why it is so deeply difficult for many people in that space.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

That makes a lot of sense. So, all right. With that said, we'll circle back to that in a few minutes. But Kyrie, I want to go back to the comment you made. You said things are changing, quote unquote. We're finding more and more people, and if I'm I'm reflecting back what I think I heard, so you'll correct me, is that more and more people want to have their cake and eat it too. Like they want that work-life balance, but they're driven. They want to make a lot of money.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

It's interesting. What I'm finding in the rapid hiring that we've been doing is that people don't want to work 40 hours. They prefer closer to like 20 to 35-ish. I'm finding very few people want to work the full 40. I'm also finding that people want high salaries and lots of benefits. And all of these things are good things. Like I think that people should get those things and should want those things and maybe even should be able to get those things at 20, 30 hours a week. However, it's just that's very um, it's it's almost impossible for many for-profits. So for nonprofits, it makes it even more difficult. But that's kind of the theme of what I'm seeing. People want more, they want to work less. And right.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

But but I'm what I thought you meant, and I want to clarify, is wanting more and doing what it takes to get more. I thought you were saying they're driven to get the money. That's where I the disconnect was for me. I think the stereotype is.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

That I find is a separate conversation than the money time piece.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

Okay, but I'm gonna ask you again. Are you finding that generation millennial, generation Z, whatever, are you finding that they you're not seeing a change in their drive and motivation to make money, are you? Because that's where I'm like, really?

SPEAKER_02 28:22

No, I'm seeing there is much more of a wanting more money. I don't know if the driver motivation is there, but this also brings up a much bigger conversation about like it's very easy to say, well, people just aren't motivated anymore to, and or they don't want to work hard for their money. But at the same time, it's like the fact that we have to work to make money, to feed ourselves, to pay our bills within a capitalistic society, like that in general is setting us up for failure. So I don't want to necessarily like criticize people for wanting more and doing less. Like, I think we all do way too much. So it's just tricky, you know? Like it's just a really tricky balance.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Well, I would never, I would never want to criticize someone for the ambition to want more and work less. It just has to be tied into a work ethic and an effort. Now, with that said, here's the thing that I think we gotta figure out. If you have someone, if you have a generation that wants to only work 20, 20, 30 hours a week, I don't care. What's the difference between having one employee at 40 and two employees at 20? Like I don't care, well, I think. Oh, wait, can I let me just but but the point I want to make is that the thing we have to think about is I don't care whether you want to work 20, 30, or 40, are you committed and motivated to maximize your time regardless of how much you're working?

SPEAKER_02 29:45

So well, the difference is benefits, because benefits cost a lot of money, right? So the difference is are you gonna give somebody who works 10 hours a week full-time benefits and health insurance for them and their partner?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

No.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

But a lot of people would say, well, you should. That is the employer's responsibility. So that's the issue, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Like I would unilaterally, regardless of how many hours they work, it's it's an So this is where the entitlement is.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Is healthcare a human right? Is it entitlement or is it wanting health care as a human right? Again, these are really tricky.

SPEAKER_00 30:14

But the company isn't responsible for that.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Why not?

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Because so all I have to do is work one hour and I get healthcare. There's no minimum or requirement. It's not a company's, it's look, we're not going to turn this into a political thing because I hate politics.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

I don't know the answers either. And I don't have like I don't even have a strong feeling one way or the other. I guess I'm just trying to answer to your question. Like, that's what would be the issue with having a bunch of part-time employees and then also paying for full-time benefits. Well, it's that would be the financial challenge for businesses.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

It becomes an issue if the expectation of the part-time employee is that they get health benefits.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

And they want them.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Right? So that's what I'm saying. They want less hours, but they want more in money and in benefits.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

And that's challenging for any business to afford.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Trevor Burrus, Jr.: Look, I think the bottom line is my big thing about generational communication is to stop stigmatizing and stereotyping generations and look at people individually for who they are. Yeah. If someone, even to take this one step further, if someone says, I want 20 hours and I want benefits and full benefits for 20 hours, that would not automatically be a deal breaker for me. I would want to understand what the output and expectations for those 20 hours are. And what I see, Kai, in generational communication is we tend to be closed off. We hear certain things and we're like, oh, well, if that's their expectation, or that's their entitled. But I would say, well, hang on a second. What is their job description? What are they going to be doing? Because can we agree that you and I have both seen people in our different stages of our career? We know people that work 20, 30 hours a week that are way more impactful and productive than people work 30, 40 hours a week. So the amount, the quantity is not always the deciding factor. And that's, I think, a change a lot of companies are having to make right now in evaluating it that way, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:11

No, for sure. And I think it also comes, I mean, this is why in my mind, inclusion and mental health work and these really tough conversations are so important, because then that also brings up the question of so is quality of work versus quantity of output is that the determinant of how much somebody should be paid? Right? And that's how we've been looking at it for generations. Forever. And again, I don't necessarily know if that's the right or the wrong way, but it's a very ableist productivity-focused view. It's not because think about what about people who have disabilities or people who can't put the same input or output that you're looking for, so they deserve to make less money and eat less healthy food and not get health insurance. Like it c it it that this is, I think, why industries as a whole are really being disrupted right now because these conversations are coming up in bigger, powerful, scary ways.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Guy, I want to talk about you've mentioned a few times on the show today, you've talked in different ways about the value of how you treat your team, your employees. And I gotta ask you, I think this would be true in a for-profit space, but in a non-profit space, you have really prioritized culture, you have really prioritized uh we'll call it the social aspects of culture. And are you, I'm gonna say this in kind of a funny way. Are you are you like super fired up that when you interview people to join Lee, talk about differentiating yourself, right? That you know you have built-in advantages. Oh, yeah, so few companies really can sell that, right?

SPEAKER_02 33:53

I will say I'm very fired up about it, and I'm very proud of it because I know the hard work that's been put in to even make that possible. You know, like for eight years I wasn't getting any money or even a paycheck, and like now we're growing and we're able to really give all of these benefits to people. So like I'm there's a lot of pride. I will also say, as someone who definitely is much more of an independent worker and thrives more on my own than in big social settings, I personally don't always benefit from the amazing culture that we have at lead. And so, like it again comes back down to the individual. Some people might not want the group yoga sessions on Monday and Wednesday, and they might not want those things. So, yes, of course, I'm proud of it, and I share that in interviews, but I've also found that those benefits are more or less, you know, exciting based on someone's interests, their personality. I mean, even the work from home thing, right? A lot of people hate working from home, and a lot of people love it. You just have to figure out who those people are.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

Well, and and you know, I think that's one of the things in our discussions that I think Leeds done a really great job of is really it's it's the love language thing, right? It's meeting people where they're at and really motivating, recognizing, and appreciating people for what they want as opposed to just a standard template-based approach.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

And respecting people's boundaries too. I mean, we set boundaries with each other all the time and in a really positive, productive way. But if we don't have the capacity for something, or if we can't show up to something, or if we're not in the right headspace, we tell each other, and there is that understanding that we respect and maintain those boundaries as well.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

Okay, so when we come back for our next segment, we're gonna talk about um surprising times when you sell when you don't even realize you're selling. So for Kyra Altman and Mark Altman, we'll be right back. Okay, welcome back to iCommunicate. And for this last segment, I want to cover, I mentioned surprise times and sales. Kai, can you think of times um personally, professionally, either when you're selling, and I again we don't like the word selling. When we say when you're influencing, motivating, when you don't even realize you're doing it, it doesn't even have to be in your professional life. Can you think of some times where some of these skills have become so ingrained in you that you do it when you don't even know you're doing it?

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Oh, I I'm so sorry. I have a terrible answer for your question, but I um I really try not to talk about work in my personal life. Well work. So you mean just like selling yourself in general?

SPEAKER_00 36:31

What about times? What about times when you're with your friends and you have to influence them on what you want to do with the time and hang out? What about something like that? That's that's influence and motivation.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

If you want to do something more than someone else, I think it just comes back to vulnerability and authenticity for me. So, like if I'm with a group of friends and three of them want to go do one thing, but I want to do something else, and the reason I want to do something else is probably because I'm tired or not feeling my best. I'll tell them that and share how I'm feeling and try to figure out a compromise that makes sense for all four of us. So I think it comes back to that, but I'm also afraid that's not really the answer that you were looking for.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

I'm not looking for any answer. I but I do think that's sales because the way you framed it is being vulnerable and it's also telling a story.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Right? It's still, it's still like you're not just saying, hey, I don't want to do this. Can we do something else?

SPEAKER_02 37:28

If one of my friends or even if a colleague really wants to do something or really feels passionate about something, and it is in within my power and capacity to help that be done, I will do so because it's that emotion, that vulnerability that I'm trying to that I'm seeing, and then trying to help someone through.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

So, Kyra, back to nonprofit sales, I want to talk about barriers to entry. So, how have you shifted your approach as you've learned, specific specifically in the corporate space, as you've learned more about the obstacles and challenges, do you feel like you've shifted your st strategy in terms of how you sell into corporate now that you've more learned some of the barriers to entry? And if so, how?

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Yeah, I think because there are so many trainers out there that are just so boring and so ineffective. Like, and and I mean that's one of the reasons why I am the trainer I am and why you are the trainer you are. Because of that, I think so many companies want to see what you have to offer before they're willing to invest in it, period. Especially for topics like inclusion, equity, mental health. Like they need to see that it actually matters and will help them personally before they're willing to then advocate it for their staff, their team, whatever. And so we have actually been found that free webinars have been a huge success for us in finding new clients. So we offer free mental health and DEI webinars every single month, tailored to HR professionals, corporate managers, C-suite, the whole thing. And that's actually how not only do we get to meet people, they'll leave saying, wow, this is the best professional development we've ever attended. Of course, we need to talk to you more. Of course, we need more information because this just changed my life. So a big part of it is connecting with them personally, showing them personally how they can benefit from lead, and then from there, they're willing to be an advocate.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Do you find in my experience in sales that when you price something for free, it often diminishes the value and people, you know, they might not still sign up, but they don't show up, they don't take it seriously. You know, do you do you have you run into that? Do you worry about diminishing your value and put something out for free?

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Yes, definitely. Um, however, because of our mission and our values on accessibility, that's a big piece of making our programming accessible to the public. So if we do work with a client who's like, listen, we have zero money for this training. We have one, the option of saying, hey, go look at our website and access every free webinar that we've recorded for two years for free with your team. Or two, we have a scholarship fund that we do fundraise for a few times a year that also helps to subsidize the cost of programming. Um, so I think for us, it's that accessibility piece, which is why we let it be free. However, I do think you're right. I think people don't value it. I think more people ask for the recording than want to show up live. I know if I register for a webinar, I almost never show up live. And if I do, I'm distracted, right? And so it there are definitely challenges involved, but I also believe you meet people where they're at and you start from something. And usually that's just getting that one person in the virtual door.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Well, and you, and I can't believe I was gonna forget to bring this up, you did something to really differentiate lead when, and I'm I'm not gonna remember it, but I'm sure when I say this, it'll jog your memory. You gave like if a corporate client you would give like some of the money, like you know what I'm talking about? Like talk about that, because that was a huge differentiator, I thought.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

We thought too, but nobody cared.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Really?

SPEAKER_02 41:07

Yeah. Um, so the Robin Hood initiative, which we still have, um, we changed it the name, the language of it we changed to more um like our one-for-one model, which basically means if a company pays for mental health or DEI training for their staff, we will donate equivalent free training to a nonprofit who doesn't have the money to pay for it, who works with youth in the community. They can even choose the nonprofit. What we've found is that companies, it usually is not enough to make them decide to work with us. And even in the times that we've used this initiative, even the nonprofits have said no, we're good. When we've literally come to them saying, hey, we have this free training to offer you, and they've literally said no, we're good. So it's been kind of shocking that it hasn't picked up like we would have wanted it to. But that's just one of those moments of you live, you learn, you pivot, and you move on.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Well, that's that's exactly where I want to finish the show with today, Kyrie, is the word pivot, because that to me, when I look at your growth as a person, as a professional, um, that's where I don't see nonprofit. When you we talk about how nonprofits don't like to sell or don't value selling the pivoting and the adapting. Hey, I tried this as a differentiator, need to change the language, need to change the approach. So, how about that? Like, is that innate to you, just being self-aware of what works and doesn't work as an entrepreneur, or is that something that's not true?

SPEAKER_02 42:28

Definitely entrepreneurial, right? It also definitely comes from you have when you're an entrepreneur, you have you are building something to support other people. And in that process, you're gonna try a million things that don't work, and also a few things that really work. And the things that really work are the things that kind of drive your energy and that fire to keep going. Um, I also, every single time there is a pivot or there is, I don't even want to say a mistake, but like a lesson learned. There really are lessons learned. Like you learned so much about the industry. I I feel like now in our 10th year at lead, I have so much non-tangible knowledge about the industries we work in that I never would have learned if I didn't go through 10 years of pivots.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Well, I I think that's that comment, it's people I think understand it a little intellectually, the growth mindset, you know, make mistakes, learn from those stuff. But I just feel like it's so easy for people to understand it intellectually, but to actually apply it and practice it.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

But that's well, you have to have the skills of resilience, and it's not just there. You have to learn resilience, and that comes from patterns of messing up or failing, and then learning that you can trust yourself to move through that and move forward it. And for a lot of people, they don't tr have that trust for themselves or the world.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

Yeah, and I think I think, you know, from a mindset perspective, there's I'm really become a big fan of stoicism and Greek philosophy and Ryan Holliday talks about the advantage mindset. And the advantage mindset is the growth mindset on steroids. The growth mindset is, hey, embrace failure, learn from your mistakes. The advantage mindset is say, how did this failure or disappointment serve me? How will it serve me? How has it served me? And I think, Cara, there are so many things personally and professionally in life when people show up and they just disappoint you and you just don't get it. Like what why why are people acting the way they are? Why are they saying what they're saying? Why are they writing what they're writing? And I think in those moments, personally or professionally, when people just let us down, it's so tempting to second guess yourself and go, hey, well, why did I take that path? Why did I choose that? Do I need to change? Do I need to do anything different? But the reality is the sphere of influence is control what you can control, let go of what you can't, and influence what you can. And I think for you, that's been something that you have, as your dad, over the course of your life, you've built up resiliency. Doesn't mean you're not human and you have your moments, but to look at that advantage mindset, I think is significant.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

I also think that a big part of it comes down to just trusting your human intuition as well and your entrepreneurial intuition because there have been multiple times where I've wanted to pivot, or I have pivoted in a way that wasn't really my idea, or maybe I was influenced by like my board or other mentors in a certain way. And I knew my gut told me, I don't really think this is what's going to move us forward. And it didn't. And usually it was the moments of stopping that kind of dialogue and focusing back in on what I know is true for lead for my life for my team. That has actually been what has amplified our growth. Um, and so I think so much of resilience is trusting yourself that you will be the one to get through that.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Yeah. And so um I think look, the last point I want to just as a summary in our last two minutes, Kara, is just want to go back to where we started today. What I what I've one of the recurring messages I've heard on the show from you today about nonprofits and sales is it's really the mindset, right? If you're if your mindset is to sell and be pushy or aggressive, that's not you, that's not who you want to be. So, just in summary, if you were to cap off two or three tips for other nonprofits or other companies out there, what are the three mindset keys for sales?

SPEAKER_02 46:28

Well, I would say to stop looking at making money as this evil thing, right? Like money, we have there's so much emotion tied to money. We are really uncomfortable around money as a human population. And we have to start stop looking at money as this evil thing that we're like sneakily trying to get from people and instead look at money as an amplifier of well-being, of supporting our team, of growing the business, of creating ethical jobs. Like money is not necessarily evil or it doesn't have to be. And I think that that's a shift that I hope both for-profit and nonprofits begin to abide by.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Awesome. All right. Well, if you want more information on lead in the DEI and mental health space and doing some training and consulting, Kyra, what's the best way for people to reach you?

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Info at leadnow.org. Why wait? Just lead now and take action.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Love it. And if you want more information on MindsetGo, working with leadership, communication, emotional intelligence, and sales, that was a mouthful. It is 978 793 1159 or info at mindsetgo.com. Kyra Altman, thank you so much for joining us here on iCommunicate. Ted, you rock. You're a producer, you're a contributor, you are a Ted of all trades.