ICommunicate Radio Show #165: What Does Commitment Mean Anyways?

In this episode of ICommunicate, Company Founder Mark Altman is joined by fellow MindsetGo trainer Joseph Lyman to discuss the consequences that stem from a lack of commitment, how to recognize when people aren’t prepared or confident to give you commitment and how to get people to speak their truth.Segment 1: When somebody fails to follow through on a commitment, should we blame it on a lack of effort or is there something more to it? What goes through the mind of somebody who gives themselves permission to bail on a task or meeting? How can we discern between a breakdown in communication and an excuse?Segment 2:Even our most reliable and committed leaders have moments where they lack the self-awareness to be emotionally intelligent -- but how can they improve on that? When we fail to honor a commitment, how can we rebuild trust with the people we let down? Segment 3: Our internal motivation and values derive from our own perceptions; thus, it can be difficult to align our goals with those of another person’s whose goals and values differ from ours. In cases like this, where two people collaborating do not see eye-to-eye, how can both parties still make commitments, and both feel heard? How can leaders establish a culture of open communication around commitment? Segment 4: Telling our leaders that we will “try” rather than “do” a task assumes that failure is part of the plan, thus creating a preemptive excuse in case we fail to follow through. How can we ensure that, after giving somebody a task, that they are comfortable enough to tell us if there is a factor that they are uncertain about? How can a slight change in tone or word choice be enough to deter or open up a peer?

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Okay, welcome to i Communicate. And listen, today is a special day. Two of my favorite people are with me today. But first of all, he had to know this was coming. My partner in crime, Ted, who is ill and who I love dearly as a friend and as a mentor, who always adds so much insight to this show, is back in the house. And I had to, I gave him my first hug I've ever given him this morning because I was so happy to see him. Ted, you're back. I'm so happy.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Woohoo! Oh, thanks. You know, this is uh colorized radio today because I'm blushing ridiculously.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

And you get some snazzy shirt. I mean, this is the problem with radio. You can't see how snazzily he's dressed today. That's the problem.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Well, um Mrs. Anjulo got to me. Um she said 15 days in the hospital. I had to stand there. You're gonna do it as I say it. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Well, and uh and my other partner in crime, Joe Lyman, is here and who I always love doing shows with. Joe, welcome back. Great to see you.

SPEAKER_00 1:12

Thank you, Mark. It's great to be back here.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

So, all right, so look, today we're gonna we're gonna talk about a topic that's near and dear to my heart. It's the word commitment. And more important, it ties into the word integrity. Okay, so for all the leaders out there, okay, for all professionals out there, tell me if this rings a bell. They said they were gonna do it, but they didn't. You know, they said they were gonna respond to my email, but they didn't. They said they were gonna follow up on my idea and recommendation, and they didn't. How about turning in the project or task on deadline? Didn't. How about kept our scheduled meeting time? Nope. No luck. So why I'm so passionate about this and why I wanted to talk to Joe, who's one of our lead trainers at Mindset Go, is because people make promises all the time. People make agreements to do things all the time, and we've stopped valuing what a commitment is. When you it seems so simple, Joe, right? You say you're gonna do something, you do it. And I want to just before I ask Joe some thoughts on this, is I want to just, Joe, give you a very quick anecdote to lead into this today. So I run a masterminds group. And for those of you who don't know what that is, it's an executive or business owner peer group that meets on a monthly basis, and the purpose is to have kind of like a board of advisors for your company, and we do accountability and goal setting and things like that. So when people join the group, one of the questions we ask them is what differentiates you from the competitors in your space? And one of the guys in the group who I love, his answer, and I'll never forget this, Joe, he said, Yeah, I think what makes my uh my business unique is we do what we say we're gonna do. And Joe, I swear to God, I remember my exact thought. This was about three years ago. My thought was, that's it? Like that's all you do to differentiate your business is you do what you say you're gonna do. And now, three years later, Joe, I'm like, wow, that's pretty special. But Joe, why are we at a point where following through on your commitments and doing what you say you're gonna do is an exception and not the norm?

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Well, I I think, first of all, I think you're right that this is the norm. So in in coaching over the past two, three years, one of the things, regardless of what level of individual I'm working with within the organization in terms of their place in the hierarchy, if you will, a common thread running through it is we scheduled a meeting, but my manager wasn't there. We scheduled a meeting, but two of my directs weren't there. We scheduled a meeting, but two of my colleagues couldn't come. And this just goes on and on. This this runs through so many of the coaching sessions that I have with people, different organizations, different places in the structure, different settings completely that have the these people don't even know each other in some cases. And yet they have a common concern, and it's a lack of commitment on the part of the people around them. You know, it's it's interesting. As I was coming in this morning, I I always tell participants we can talk about politics, but only in the abstract. So in in England, there was what's called a by-election. So these are offices that need to be filled as a result of a vacancy. This is somebody left, resigned, got fired, whatever it happened to be. And the the party in power just lost two seats that they fully expected to hold. One was one that they'd held for over 100 years, and one was one that they'd recently taken over in the last general election. And they asked the head of the party, what do you think explains the fact that you've lost these two seats? And his comment was, well, you know, it it's it's inflation, it's it's the war, it's this, it's that. And the one thing that was absolutely missing from his answer was I had something to do with it as the leader of this party, or that our party had something to do with it. And there have been numerous, let's just say, concerns, they're really scandals over the past uh few months with this party. But in no way did he even intimate that there was any personal responsibility on the part of the leader or the party itself in being responsible for these losses. So I think what we've seen is a structural shift away from integrity. You used the word integrity a moment ago, but that's what this is. And we see around us all the time a lack of it. We see it in the political process, we see it in the uh organizational process, we see it with leaders. You know, you've got a company that's doing poorly, it's not doing great, it's not doing horrible, but it's doing poorly, but we pay the lead, you know, we we give a stock option purchase to our CEO of$47 million. Where's the integrity behind taking that? Where's the integrity behind saying that as long as I get mine and everybody else isn't dead, I'm okay with that scenario.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Well, that's a different that may be for a different show. But but but you just to bring this back, Joe, let's let's deal with the elephant in the room. Okay? Now, when you talk about agreeing to do something, first of all, Joe and I aren't here to tell you you need to be perfect. You know, things happen, things come up. Sometimes you are not fully able to keep your commitments and promises, but again, they have to be the exception versus the norm. What I want to bring up, Joe, is what I think one of the biggest problems that has crept up that cause this lack of integrity, which is rationalization. And there's two specific examples I want to give when I say rationalization. First of all, is people right now are feeling overburdened in the workplace. They're feeling overwhelmed because of labor shortages, um, there's more additional workload in many cases. So here's what I see happening to you. Here's the first example. I see people sitting there going, hey, listen, you know, if I don't if I don't have time to respond to your email, or I can't respond to your email, do you know how much work I have on my plate? So sorry, you're out of luck. Or, you know why I didn't show up for the meeting? Because I've been working 50, 60 hours a week round the clock, and I have no energy left for the meeting. And so there's these, there are these unilateral decisions being made by people that they've become their own judge and jury and are basically giving themselves permission to not keep their agreements and commitments. And I think that's where it all starts, Joe. And that really comes down to a lack of communication more than anything else.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Aaron Powell And that I think is spot on because you know, many years ago a mentor of mine said there are three things you have to do. You have to say what you're going to do, you have to do what you said you would do, and if that doesn't happen, you have to explain why it didn't. And I think we've kind of lost that personal responsibility ethos. Yeah, and I I think we see it in a broader context around us, and then we think it's okay for us to do it ourselves. But but this goes back to what our mothers wisely asked us when they said many years ago, if everybody was jumping off of a bridge, would you jump off with them? That's great. Right. It isn't okay to forego fulfilling a personal commitment that you've made. There may be a reason for it. Great. We have that conversation and we let people know as soon as possible. We don't wait until two days later and say, oh, sorry I blew off that meeting with you two days ago. Uh yeah, I just had stuff to do.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Well, well, and more importantly, or as importantly, I should say, not more importantly, think about this, Joe. You were scheduled to be on the radio show today, okay? In my wildest dreams, I would I'm I'm gonna give you so much credit on this. I think there would be a 0% chance, aside from some unpredictable health or weather mishap, where you would ever not show up for the radio show without telling me, right? Because to you, you make an appointment, you may not make it, something may come up, but you would give me advance notice and say, hey, I'm not gonna be able to make the radio show. So that third bucket from your mentor where the person said, you know, you have to explain why you can't do it or why you didn't do it. Why is that part being missed? Because there are so many aspects in life personally, with friends and family member, family members. You would never not do that third part. Like it's innate in you that if it's a friend or family member, you need to keep the commitment. And if you can't, you're gonna give notice and you're gonna explain why. But in the workplace, what's the difference? Why the unilateral decisions of permission in the workplace when you wouldn't do that in your personal life? Or maybe you would.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, exactly. Well, and that's the other problem. I think if you start doing it in the workplace, there's a really good chance it carries over into the personal sphere. And and I think we're losing a little of that as well. Not as much as as we see it in the it's not as prevalent as we see it in the workplace. But I think we're losing that uh the personal side as well. And and part of it is we're modeling what we see. Right? We're we're we're noticing that this happens a lot in the broader sphere around us. And and and nobody calls anybody on it. You know, things happen, but nobody gets fired. Things happen, but nobody, you know, companies commit criminal activity, but nobody goes to jail, right? You know, they they agreed to pay this multi-billion dollar fine, but did not admit guilt. Uh those are the words that you hear attached to to half the endings of these stories.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Yeah. And so when we come back for our next segment, I'm gonna build on what Joe just said. We're gonna talk about the accountability piece. We're gonna talk about how Joe mentioned this is this behavior has become pretty normalized in many companies. So we'll be back to discuss that in our next segment. For Joe Lyman, I'm Mark Altman. We'll be right back. I'm gonna kill two birds with one stone because I always love sharing an annoying customer service experience. So this is a perfect example of agreement versus commitment, okay? This just happened. So I'm speaking at a conference in early August, going to Missouri, and the conference is in this place in Missouri, I think it's called Osage Beach, which is not specifically near Kansas City or St. Louis, St. Louis. So I have to fly into Springfield, Missouri, okay? So suffice it to say, there's no direct flights into Springfield, Missouri. So I get plane tickets on Delta a while back through this website called fairsplanet.com. Hence my first mistake. Okay. So I get the I get the tickets, and then the night I got them in the during the day about a month and a half ago. That night I get a call from a strange number. I pick up the phone at nine o'clock at night. I'm like, hello? They're like, yeah, this is uh fairsplanet.com. Uh there's a problem with your reservation. Um, can you switch to a different flight? I said, now I'm a little confused here because you confirmed that I had the reservation. Hence you made a commitment. So what are you telling me now? Well, we don't have enough seats on the flight as what we thought. So I'm like, oh God, what is this about? So I said, Listen, I'm not going to change my flight. You made the commitment you need to keep it. And they're like, okay, we'll work on it. So I really got off the phone, maybe naively, feeling like I had a commitment. So two days ago, I called for a different reason. And so before I get off the phone, the guy says, Well, hang on a second, your reservation isn't confirmed. And I go, What do you mean? And they're like, Well, yeah, we we we we can't, we don't have enough seats, but I have great news. You ready for this? I have great news. And I'm telling you exactly the way he said it, okay? I have great news. We're gonna move you from basic seating to main cabin seating. So, first of all, I'm picturing the Titanic and that line above that Leonardo DiCaprio was in steerage on the bottom. So I'm thinking, well, I'm in cargo and I'm moving up to an actual seat. Is that what you're telling me? So they move me up to the main cabin. He says, in good news, because of it's today, we're only gonna charge you an additional$900 for this reservation. So I just like this, I go, so let me just understand what's going on here. You couldn't keep your commitment. You over-promised and under-delivered, and in return, the benefit for me is to pay an additional$900. I just want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly. And the guy goes, Yeah, pretty much. It was so great. So the guy says, Pretty much. And then the end of the story is, so I'm like, I'm canceling reservation. I'm not doing business with you. Like, that's absurd. So he finally agrees to lower it down to instead of 900, I get him all the way down to 350. Uh, little margin there, I guess, right? So we get it down to 350. And then at the end of the call, he says to me, and this was the beautiful end, he goes, Um, he says, I'm glad we could help you today. And I said, geez, it felt more like a punishment than help. So, you know, when we think of customer service and agreements and commitments, we expect when we make a reservation, that's a commitment. That we are locked in for that. And that example, it just triggered me and pressed my buttons. And so before the break, we were talking about what Joe was talking about. There's a lack of accountability, behavior is enabled. Um, this behaviors are getting normalized, so it's becoming habits. I mean, God forbid, this is this is becoming acceptable habits. So, Joe, I promised earlier in the first segment, I said there's a few reasons in the rationalization argument. And one of the other reasons I see in the rationalization argument is because people have projects or tasks, and they say, Yeah, the reason I didn't get back to you is because I didn't hear from Mary yet, so I couldn't get back to you. And I'm like, wait a minute. Whose project is this? Because if it's your project, you own it, it's your responsibility to get an answer from Mary to make sure the deadline is met. And this is the thing I want to talk to you about, Joe, is the thing that really rankles me is why don't people realize that even if you don't have an answer, I coach and train on this all the time, and I'm sure you do too, is you at least at bare minimum need to give a status update. Like, why that's not a hard concept, but it's almost like, hey, I don't know, so I'm just gonna ignore the commitment and blow it off altogether because I've got nothing to tell you.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Well, and and I think this is exactly what we have created. I don't have any information for you, so I'm not going to contact you. Not, oh, I had an obligation to you that I committed to because I said we would have a meeting today. You know, it's funny, when when I do leadership training, one of the things that comes up is that as a leader, there is an obligation to your behavior. But it's not just a work obligation, it is a moral obligation as a leader, right? If you take a position of responsibility for somebody else's situation, you have a moral responsibility to that person. Whether you recognize it is a separate question, but you have it. It is implicit, it is actually explicit in the situation. And I think we've lost that sense of moral obligation to the people that we work with, to the people that we that we report to in some cases, and in even our directs. I mean, how often have have individual contributors had a situation where they had a one-on-one scheduled with their uh with their leader, with their manager, and they they're online, they're on Zoom, or they're sitting in an office, but no one's there except them. Right? When I'm the only person in the room and my manager told me they'd be there and there's no call and there's no text, you know, we have more ways, we have more methods to communicate than at any point in history. I mean, think about it. Years ago it was smoke signals or a telegraph. That was what you had. Today we have uh uh you know a a plethora of methods to communicate, and we can't be bothered to use any of them to tell somebody we're not coming to a meeting that we've called? This is this is unacceptable behavior.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

All right, so Ted, I got something for you here. Because Joe just touched upon something so important, okay? Lay it on me. Moral obligations as leaders, as parents, as support people, okay? What gets in the way of moral obligations? Like what's the kryptonite to owning and accepting your moral obligations.

SPEAKER_01 19:08

Selfishness.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

And why and why and w in because I like that a lot. Selfishness. Why do people become selfish?

SPEAKER_01 19:17

Well, I had someone say to me one time there is no such thing as betrayal. People just take what they want.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

There's definitely some truth to that. So I agree, and and this is where I want to focus, guys, on this, okay? I'll tell you what I believe, building on what Ted said is the kryptonite to moral obligation, it's the lack of emotional intelligence. And let me be specific. I start out the day, I'm in a great mood. I feel morally obligated to the people on my team. And then all of a sudden, here's what happens. Now my boss criticizes me, and I'm in a bad mood, and now I want to project that on someone else. Now, someone on my team, I had a performance conversation with them, and they made excuses, they were defensive, and they deflected the feedback. Okay? Or people in general are not meeting my expectations today and are disappointing me. So because of all those reasons, I've lost my ability to be emotionally intelligent. I shirk my moral obligation. I love that word. And now, I mean, I've used shirk and wrankle. Can we talk about that?

SPEAKER_00 20:31

Double plus.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Double plus, right? So now, because people have let me down and haven't met my needs or expectations, now my emotions have gotten the best of me. And hey, you know what? If you're gonna do that, you know, you know, maybe I won't get around to responding to your email. Maybe I won't need to, or maybe I won't be able to show up in your meeting. And I'm and I and Joe, I I'm not specifically, I don't want to go off on a tangent of passive aggressive or aggressive behavior, because that is a component. But the bigger point I'm making is we lose. Look, and this is the last point I'll make, Joe, and I'll turn it over to you is when you sign up to be a leader, you are impacting and influencing people's lives every day. And that is part of your obligation and having that role. And so for me, for me, this is the frustration, Joe. We know the moral obligations exist, but how do we keep people focused on moral obligations in the face of adversity?

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Well, and I think that's key. And I think there are three fundamental principles that we need to keep in mind about human beings, whether we're talking in the workplace, in their personal life, it doesn't matter. These these are fundamental principles. And uh I think we have time before the break. So I'll I'll just list them and then we have a chance to talk about them. People act the way they Feel people act the way they feel. Second thing is, you can't help anyone unless you have a surplus. And the third thing is we do not see things as they are. We do not see things clearly as they are. We see things as we are.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

So, Joe, I'm going to just wrap this up and then we're going to continue right where we left off in the next segment to discuss those three things. But I want our listeners to really digest what Joe said because those are three independently valuable concepts. And the one that we're going to start with coming out of the break is we can't help anyone unless you have a surplus. Here's where the burnout problem is happening in the country, point blank, right? If everybody if everybody's taxed to the limit, how are you going to manage other people, support other people, lift them up if you don't have any energy yourself? Like you can't do it, you can't fit it in. And again, that's where the rationalization comes in. So we're going to talk more about this in our third segment about Joe's big three. For I Communicate and Joe Lyman, I'm Mark Altman. We'll be right back. All right. So Ted, I I want to set the record straight on something. How do you pronounce? Is it Leonard Skinnard? Is it like do you pronounce the Y in a certain way? Because I mean, we've been playing that song since the inception of the show. We got to talk about that. Is it Leonard Skinnard?

SPEAKER_01 23:31

It is indeed Leonard Skinnard, but the story is that the band was in junior high school together. And the math teacher was Mr. Leonard Skinnard. And they used to make fun of him over and over because of his name, and they'd spell it that way, and he'd get all upset.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

Wow. Wow. So, you know, this is funny because I'm proud to say, you know, I'm 50 years old. I'm actually 50 and a half. Isn't that awesome to say you're 50 and a half? When do you stop saying halves? I think at like when you become a teenager. Yeah. 12 and a half. I think up to teenagers when you stop saying halves.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Yeah, preteens. Preteens will be 11 and a half. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Yeah, it depends on state of mind, though. I still I'm I'm 65 and a half. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Okay, now, so next, this coming Sunday night, I'm going to see the Doobie Brothers perform with Michael McDonald's at the Bank of New Hampshire Pavilion. And I I love Michael McDonald's. Michael McDonald's voice, I could listen to that voice forever. So I love the Doobie Brothers too. I'm thrilled to see them.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah, that voice comes from somewhere in your long ago, doesn't it? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

And uh and then the other thing is Leonard Skinnard is performing at the Bank of New Hampshire Pavilion coming up with the Marshall Tucker band of the Can't You See Ilk, right? Do you remember that song, Can't You See?

SPEAKER_00 25:02

Can't you see?

SPEAKER_02 25:03

So what a great concert, though. Leonard Skinner and the Marshall Tucker band? Like that's a good concert. All right, I'm digressing. My ADHD kicked in, a squirrel ran by. I don't know. Okay, so anyway, so Joe said something I'm I'm gonna really say was profound uh during the break, and he said the exact phrase he used is the contract in the workplace is fundamentally broken. And it relates to what we've been talking about, right? Because we're talking about rationalizing why you can't keep your commitments and why you don't have why why you agree to something but then don't commit to it, right? And I want to go back to Joe's big three he talked about that related to the contract in the workplace being broken. And we talked before the break about the surplus. Um, but that's really where it starts, Joe. Because if people feel overworked and overwhelmed, I'm gonna use the word and I hate because it feels harsher than I really mean here, but there's an entitlement. Like if you're gonna work me this hard, if you're gonna put this level of expectation and responsibility on me, then you know what? If I don't keep all my commitments, if I can't do everything you're asking, too bad because I'm earning my money anyway.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

And consider where it begins in the workplace story. So a couple of years ago, if somebody had said to me I was ghosted, I would have immediately assumed they were talking about a relationship situation. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02 26:33

Yeah, that's a great point.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Right? And somebody simply wasn't responding to their texts. But the word ghosted has actually taken on a new meaning. The word ghosted is now used by employers who hired someone, offered them the job, they accepted the position, and then never showed up and never responded to emails, text, or what have you. I mean literally we've changed the common understanding of the word ghosted, and now it reflects what happens in the workplace and not in personal lives. And this is literally, you applied for this job. They didn't seek you out. It wasn't like, you know, they they they just randomly picked you off the street and said, hey, do you want a job? You applied for this job, you interviewed for this job, you went through the process to get the job, and then you disappeared. So if we now think that that's okay, if there's a percentage of us as of of of workforce participants that think that it's okay to ghost an employer from the very beginning, why should we anticipate that that once they're hired, that that will change 100% and people will feel committed and and obligated and have that sense of moral obligation? I I just don't think there's a reason to anticipate that being the reality when we see from the st from the get-go that people don't have that connection.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

You know it's funny, when I don't see Joe for a while and he's back in my life again, I'm like, oh, it's so good to hear him. So like you know how a lot of times you say it's good to see people? It's good to hear people. Like i and see you, of course. Um so, Joe, I there's something you said that really struck me because um I remember a few years ago prior to the pandemic, I would say to employers a lot, when you when people apply for a job and you don't respond to them, and you don't even give them the courtesy that you know we've chosen someone else or whatever, it's just such awful behavior. And the irony is that now that employees have all the leverage, they're giving it right back to employers. So there's so much competition for good talent that it's the talent now that may not even be responding and extending the courtesy to the company. So you know what they say, Joe Karma's a bitch. So look ultimately, Joe and I are talking about concepts, and I'm really big at Mindset Go about look, we're we're pointing out a lot of problems. We're pointing out a lot of the challenges. But let's talk some solutions, Joe. So, one of the solutions we talked about in the last segment is going back to what you said, which is and I'm I and I'm I'm referencing the comment you made before, where there's three things people can do. And the third thing is, you know, do what they say do what they say they're gonna do, say what they say they're gonna do, and um explain. What was the I forget exactly?

SPEAKER_00 29:17

So say what you're gonna do, do what you said you would do, right? And if that doesn't happen, explain why.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Yes. And however, there's an asterisk on the third one, and the asterisk is we want you to explain proactively, not reactively. Because look, when you make a commitment, here's an example, okay? For all the leaders out there who have teams, do they know what your expectations are? And here's the example I'm gonna give. Joe, if you work for me and you're turning in projects and tasks for me, and I give you deadlines, my expectation is not that the day the project is due, you communicate and say, Yeah, not gonna be able to do that. I want 24 to 48 hours notice because in some cases I might need to have a plan B. So when you say explain why you didn't, I want people to understand that if you haven't a commitment or an agreement, the goal here is to do it proactively and not reactively after the fact, because if it's done after the fact, then I can't plan accordingly. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 30:26

It makes perfect sense because realistically, uh it is it is exceedingly rare. It happens, of course, but it's exceedingly rare that people don't know what's going on in their world. Right, uh in the workplace. So I knew on Tuesday that I wasn't going to be ready for this meeting with you on Thursday. If I wait until Thursday to tell you I'm actually violating my moral obligation to you in the workplace because I need to share with you as soon as I have the information what's happening, what's going on, and what I plan to do about it. And when I don't do that, I leave you at a disadvantage. I leave you in a in a in a less useful place than if I'd done my job properly. And there's a there's a couple aspects of this, but one there are two things that I think are important. First of all, we don't talk about this very much in our cultural setting, in our in our world of work. We don't talk about obligation very much. And the other problem is there are three words that enable a leader to set the standard here. And they are be the example. And more and more people are following the example they see, but it's not a good example. And so if you treat me poorly years ago, you could you could kind of get away with treating people badly as a leader and still expect them to treat you properly. That set of circumstances uh essentially no longer exists in most workplaces. Individual contributors will respond and model the behavior that they are treated with. So if we treat people badly in the workplace, we will be rewarded in kind.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Well, that that that makes a lot of sense. Um you know, and look, Joe, I I think really to me what it comes down to is again, we're always trying to think about root cause. Like why do people act the way they do? Why do they say what they say? Why do they write what they write? And we've been talking a lot so far in the show about when people rationalize or acting titled or or don't keep their obligations. But let's go the other way, let's go the empathetic route. Right? A lot of times people struggle to make commitments or keep their commitments because their fear of doing something wrong, or their fear of vulnerable, or fear of failure. And so in a a prime example, we've got to address this today, Joe, is the mindset shift of I'll try versus I'll do, right? So why does someone say I'll try versus I'll do? What is your take on that, Joe?

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Aaron Powell I I think we've trained them to do that. I think we've created a a construct within which they operate where I'll try passes for I'll do.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

Because we don't are we lowering the standards that much is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_00 33:34

I think that's exactly what we're doing. I think we're and and here's the thing that that again, this goes to be the example. If you do not hold yourself to those standards, if you do not hold yourself to the standard that you want your employees to hold themselves to, if you do not make the commitment to them, I don't think there's any reason to anticipate that people will do anything other than what they see.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

So, Joe, there's a reason why we call the company mindset go, right? We're about shifting mindsets, embracing mindsets, growth mindsets, uh adaptive mindset, reductive mindset. So this is what I'm trying to understand. For me, and I think a lot of people have trouble grasping this concept, when you say I commit to doing something, I will do it, I'll do it, versus I'll try, it is a mindset piece. Because when you say I'll try, am I being too harsh? Ted, am I being too harsh when I say that if you say I'll try, and uh let me preface this before we get any complaints or callers. I understand a lot of people say I'll try because it's a built-in lifelong habit, and you're not doing it to be, you know, not intentional. But the reality is the phrase I'll try builds in room for failure. It's like you want a pass. You want and so am I right, Ted? Is that how you see it?

SPEAKER_01 35:06

I think people have become flip with regards to the words they use and their intentions overall.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

So play this out, Joe. Okay? So because this is this is where I want to go with you on this, all right? You're my boss. I you asked me to do something, take on a new project, and I say I'll try. Okay? And you you say, Great, thanks for trying. We're gonna lower the standards. Thanks for trying, okay? And then a week later, I didn't do what I said I was gonna do. This is what the I'll try people don't realize. So you come back to me and you say, Hey Mark, you you said you were gonna do one minute. Would I really look at you and go, well, not really. I only said I'll try.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

100 percent.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Right? Like is that a rational conversation? Because if you say I'll try, you may be building in room for failure. But would you really respond when you didn't do something by saying, well, no. They're just being flip. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

I just So what do you think, Joe? I I think the reality is that if I was the boss and that's what I said, it's kind of my fault because I did not set and agree with you, and you did not set and agree with me very specific expectations, very specific situational, uh what would be the outcome? How would we know? And did we build a series of checks into it so that we could, you know, like, hey, let me know in the middle of the week how it's going and so forth. Did we set up a process that was likely to succeed, or did we set up one that was tempted to failure?

SPEAKER_02 36:45

So when we come back for our next segment, we're gonna talk about what Joe just said. It takes two to tango. For Joe Lyman, I'm Mark Altman. We'll be right back. Okay, welcome back to I Communicate. And just a quick note here. Um, before we get into where Joe led us the two to tango concept, just want to bring up two other quick things um heading into this last segment. Number one, every time you Google communication, you're gonna see something along the lines of body language is 93% of communication. Okay? Here's what I want you to remember: it may be, but the other 7% really, really matter. And the other 7% are what you say and how you say it. So when when Ted talks about being flip with word choice, and we're talking about mindset, words really matter. And look, in the example I gave in the last segment about is someone really gonna give an excuse and say, Well, I didn't do it, but I only said I'll try, now go the other direction, Joe. Now say you asked me to do something and I said, I'll do it. I'm committing to it. Okay? Now I still don't do it. Are you now, as the leader, gonna come into that conversation differently and said, Well, if you'd only said you were gonna try, I would have had more empathy. Like, see how irrational this sounds on both sides of the coin. So what Joe talks about, though, is there is a responsibility of a leader to set the expectations in a conversation. And when you want to hold people accountable, it takes two to tango. So if someone says, I'll try and you're satisfied and you're comfortable with that low standard or that built-in room for failure, you're starting off the problem wrong in the first place. So, Joe, what do you mean? What does what is the obligation of a leader to communicate in these performance or habit improvement situations, in these task or project delegation situations, so the leader sets up the conversation the right way?

SPEAKER_00 38:50

So when when you and I have the conversation about doing this radio show, have I ever called you the day before and said, Mark, are you going to be there tomorrow at the radio station? Nope. The reason I've never called you is because it doesn't occur to me that you're not going to be here. I don't worry about it. And the reason I don't worry about it is because I have no indication of any kind other than what's going to happen is what has happened before. So we have, by virtue of our relationship, established that in my head. If I don't have that sort of relationship, or maybe it's the first time we're working on a project together, it is not unreasonable for me, if I'm the leader, to say, to check in with you maybe a couple weeks before and say, hey Mark, does it still look good for our radio show together in a couple of weeks? You're all set to go for that? Everything good to go? That would be perfectly reasonable. Right? And then if I'm if we're going to do a project together and I say, hey, are you willing to take this on? and you say yes, that's not the end of the discussion. The rest of the discussion includes things like, so if you run into a concern midway through this project, will you make me aware of it? Or uh this is due on Thursday in two weeks, why don't we check in with each other a week from now on Wednesday and make sure we're still in a good place on it? And please know, you said words matter. I I want to echo that sentiment. Please know that I didn't say, I'll check up on you in a week. I said, let's check in with each other in a week and make sure that we're on the right track. There was a huge difference between checking in with your people and checking up on them. And just because I have to tell this one little sidebar, when you said 93% is nonverbal, this is based on a study done by a man named Albert Morabian. And Morabian himself was very clear. This was one specific sort of communication conversation. It didn't apply to everything, it only applied to the study that he was doing. And he spent much of the rest of his life trying to remind people that they misuse these statistics pretty much every single time they mention them. It doesn't apply to normal conversations. It doesn't apply when both people know each other. It was actually when you're talking to a stranger in a very certain specific manner. This is always used incorrectly.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

Yeah, that's great. I was like, that's brilliant. Okay, so I want to I want to segue to a final topic today, and this is something uh that we could we could have spent a whole show on, but it's an aspect of commitment versus agreement, and it really revolves around psychological safety. So here's the premise, okay? I'm the boss, you're my team, you're my an individual on my team. We're having a conversation. I end the conversation, and by the way, here's the first mistake. I end the conversation with a closed-ended question. So does this make sense to you? Yes. Great. Do you know what you need to do? Yes. Great. Bye. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

We're done. Because if I answer anything else but what you just said, I'm demonstrating that I'm not as smart as everybody.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Well, so okay, so so Joe, I love what you just said. So this is where I'm going. So when you're finishing a conversation, your goal in a conversation, and there's a lot of things you could take from this show today, but if you take one, take this. Your goal is not to get agreement, it's to get commitment. So at the end of a conversation, when someone says those things, they're likely to agree, partially because what Joe just said. Do you want to be the one in a conversation to look like you weren't listening? Do you want to be the one that sounds like you don't understand and may be made to feel stupid? There's so much downside to speaking up at the end of that conversation that to get commitment, first thing you want to do is ask open-ended questions. Hey, in this conversation we covered A, B, and C. You know, what were your takeaways on those topics? You know, tell me some things you feel like you may struggle with with those topics. Tell me some things you may feel like you would excel at in those areas. But you've got to ask open-ended questions and you've got to allow room for commitment versus agreement. One of the things, Joe, I always say at the end of the conversation is if someone says, yes, I get it, I understand what I'm doing, what the goals are, what the action plan is, what the expectations are, the whole thing. My run, and this is for real, and tone is everything here. I would look at you, Joe, and I'd go, now you can't see my face, so you can't see the body language, but I would look at you and say, Joe, would you tell me if you didn't? Okay, so I'd float out the concept that do you even feel safe telling me if you didn't? Now, they still could lie. I mean, not lie, but they still could represent that they do. But by saying that, now watch, I call this rookie rookie pro all-star. Rookie. Okay? Closed ended questions. Pro open ended questions. Questions, would you tell me if you didn't? All-star. Would you tell me if you didn't? The reason why I'm asking is because when I did that project, when I was learning how to do that project, I kind of struggled with it myself. So I would understand if you have questions. So you normalize it. Right?

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Well, Rookie Pro All-Star. And you just did something spectacular in that All-Star characters. You demonstrated vulnerability. You said, yeah, I had difficulty with that project. You know, Brene Brown gave a TED talk on vulnerability several years ago. Within three days, it had become the most watched TED talk at the time. And so of course, Fortune companies were paying attention to her, and Fortune 100 companies were calling her up and they said, Can you give a talk on vulnerability? And she said, of course. And they said, Can you do it without using the word vulnerable? And she said, No.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

Yeah, and so huge fan of Brene Brown. Love that you brought that up, Joe. And so part of agreement versus commitment is people feeling comfortable to advocate for themselves, feeling comfortable to ask questions, speak up for what they want and need. And understand this. We do a lot of work with companies, Joe and I and the other mindset co-trainers, we do a lot of work around change management, embracing and adapting to change, opening up lines of communication. And you know what it comes down to? When someone doesn't do what they say they're going to do, there are so many reasons it could be. There could be negative reasons, like Joe and I alluded to earlier in the show. It could be they don't feel like they have the knowledge to succeed at it. It could be they don't have the skills or experience to succeed at it. It could be they don't feel like they have adequate support to follow through on the project. And the list goes on and on and on. So look, one of the foundational concepts at Mindset Go is when people disappoint you, when people don't meet your expectations, and when people frustrate you, you have three ways you can respond. You can default to the negative and assume the worst and personalize it. You can default to the positive and be glass half full, which we don't want you to do, because when you automatically default to the positive, you could be missing cues and signals that are telling you something. We want you to be curious. Because when people don't meet your needs and expectations, if you assume they don't take pride in their job, they're entitled, um, they're not being respectful, maybe. Or it could be other things.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

Well, and this gets to the heart of the matter. It's okay to question people's actions and behavior. Love that. It is not okay to question someone's motivation because we don't know what goes on with other people. We literally have no idea. Nor is it our job to know what motivates other people. But we can ask questions, right? I I love the idea of asking questions, right? Be curious, continuously be curious, and say, hey, is there anything that I can do to help you in this situation? Is there anything that I can contribute to what you're dealing with? Not what's your problem, which is aggressive and pointed and negative, but is there a situation that I can help you with?

SPEAKER_02 47:24

Well, actually, Joe, you you you you said something, uh you may not even realize what you said, so tell me if you agree with this concept. Because this is what I would think we should be teaching, right? And listen to how I do the words, right? It's not okay to question people's motivation, but it's okay to question people's motivation. Because we want to understand how people are motivated in the workplace. But it's all the it's all the intention and tone around it, is what you were saying, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Exactly. If it's accusatory, then it's completely inappropriate under all circumstances. Trevor Burrus, Jr. So But if you do it from a position of concern and curiosity, that's a different story. That's a different perspective.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Then it's okay for me to say, hey, is there something I can do? That's the other thing, by the way. It has to be an I question. It can't be a what's your problem. It has to be a what can I do to help you with whatever you're dealing with. No question.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

So listen, everybody, just to wrap up the show, Joe, thanks so much for being with us today. Look, we're we're ultimately when we talk about commitment versus agreement, you know, it comes in several facets. From a mindset perspective, things like I'll try and I'll do. From a performance improvement and delegation perspective, it's about psychological safety and creating the lane for people to feel comfortable saying they don't aren't comfortable agreeing or committing to what you're asking. And so, look, final thought is this if you want to contact MindsetGo for more information about how to help your leadership or teams be better communicators, more emotionally intelligent, the phone number is 978 793 1159, or info at mindsetgo.com. For Joe Lyman, I'm Mark Altman, Ted Your Rostom, and thanks. We'll see you next time.