ICommunicate Radio Show #164: The Thoughtful Leader

In this episode of ICommunicate, Mark Altman is joined by Ben Brearley, a Leadership Coach, Trainer, and Consultant with over 15 years of leadership experience. They discuss what it means to be a thoughtful leader, in addition to the challenges that may impede long lasting influence and change. Segment 1: When can a leader be certain that they’ve made a lasting, positive impact on the person that they’re coaching? Why is it so essential that coaches avoid using the righting reflex when problem solving with a colleague? Segment 2:It’s one thing to consider ourselves a thoughtful leader, but another to embody what that actually means. What does it mean to be a thoughtful leader? What does a “thoughtful” conversation look like between a leader and their team, and how can it lead to necessary reform in company culture? Segment 3: There’s a huge difference between “communicating” and “communicating with intent” that not all leaders recognize. Where does the motivation to continue learning come from, and how do we fuel other people? What are some leadership tools that we may be overlooking?Segment 4: It’s inevitable that leaders will find themselves in positions that no toolkit can fully prepare them for. In those moments, how can we adapt and find new solutions on our own? What is the tall poppy syndrome, and how can it affect the morale and performance of your team?

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

All right. Well, today we have a special edition of I Communicate. And I gotta tell everybody, you know, I am fired up for this because this is a guy that's gonna be on the show today who I started to follow on LinkedIn. I don't even remember. I I think I think Ben, you you your blog, the thoughtful leader, must have someone else must have shared it or something because we weren't originally connected.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

No, that's right. So I don't remember, but just the magic of Google, I think. Just the magic of Google. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

So anyway, so here's this guy, Ben, who I'll and let him introduce himself in a second. I gotta give some pleasantries his way though, first. So, you know, I I see this this guy, and I just want to tell everybody I this is I can't be more sincere when I say this, okay. I am so I'm like so uh what's the word I'm looking for? Resistant when I read other people's stuff, you know, when I read blogs and and you know, thought leaders and stuff, I'm I I almost expect it to be bad because it's like I see so much lazy and generic content on LinkedIn. And then not only that, but when something's a little longer, since no one has an attention spin anymore, people are even more skeptical. Like, I'm gonna really read this, like you know, whatever. So I stumble upon Ben's thought leader blog, and I first one I ever read, I was like, This is amazing! Like, who is this guy? Like, this is amazing, and so I'm like, all right, well, maybe it was a fluke, maybe it was just one good one, but then I'm like, okay, I'm gonna connect with him and I'm gonna follow. And I just want our audience to realize Ben is when I talk about someone who adds value to their customer base, when I talk about someone who adds value to their followers, um, this is a guy that if I lived in Australia with them, I'd want to hang out with this guy. So, Ben, without further ado, welcome to the show and tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

Yeah, thank you, Mark. I appreciate the kind words. Um, yeah, my name is Ben Brele. I'm a leadership coach and leadership development sort of uh let's call myself a uh practitioner. So I do um leadership training. Started off, as Mark mentioned, with the Thoughtful Leader blog. So this was, I don't know, eight or nine years ago now. I started writing that with no with no idea of any anywhere or where it was going. Um so my background is actually started off working in software development a long time ago, um, then moved into middle management roles and uh consulting for some of the big consulting firms, and uh then jumped out into a lot of program project management and further middle management roles. So about 15, 16 years of leadership experience and just developed a passion, particularly during consulting, just developed a passion for uh for leadership, helping leaders um be better or at least solve their challenges. So there's a lot of good leaders out there that are, you know, especially the thoughtful leader ones that I classify as thoughtful leaders in that category. There's a certain set of challenges that thoughtful leaders seem to have that other leaders may not, and I think that's where I help them try to overcome those challenges. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Ben, I got a two-part question follow for you. Are you first of all, you know, you're based in Australia? Are there, you know, in the United States, it's very saturated, the amount of coaches and trainers and consultants. So part one of my question is, is it saturated in Australia? And part two is where does the entrepreneurial spirit come from from for you?

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Uh in Australia, I would say uh it is saturated, but I still think it is, definitely. But through particularly for me throughout my um consulting career, I just had the opportunity to work with so many clients and uh met so many people that I've had uh been able to build some pretty good networks. So that's helped me because I've only really been out on my own the last couple of years, and um that's helped me, you know, build some build some work up um that way. It is saturated for sure, I would say. Um, and the second part of your question, can you repeat that for me?

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Yeah, so the entrepreneurial spirit, because I know I think, and I just want to add one comment before you respond. You know, the thing about an entrepreneur is that people underestimate it, really takes a lot of courage, right? You really have to believe in yourself and your value and be able to take a risk. So, yeah, did you just wake up one morning and say, no, I'm gonna start my own business? Like, where did that all come from?

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Uh, it's sort of, yeah, it built up slowly. I sort of, I guess I've done it the safe way, right? Which is eight or nine years writing a blog, which is not, you know, that wasn't my plan. I'm gonna I'm gonna work on this for eight years and then I'll have my own business. Um, it just sort of evolved that way because I was doing my day job at the same time, and then I was writing articles for Thoughtful Leader. So I think for me, it's interesting because we did the um we were talking about it uh recent in a recent call. We did that print assessment, which is you know about your underlying motivations. And yours and mine are very different, actually. You you're much more um the let's sort of goal focused type of person, you know, go hit the target, let's go high energy. And I'm more the safe and secure peace and harmony, sort of um laid back and uh plan, get planned, like to be prepared, like to have a routine, all that sort of stuff. So sometimes it surprises me when I that I have jumped out and started my own business. But I think what's dumb it is I look at the alternative of not starting my own business and not feeling fulfilled in what I'm doing so much and feeling like I'm not adding as much value as I could. And then I think, well, that's a terrible place to be. So let's go and let's get going and uh and do some work with leaders and try to help them improve. Because I think, you know, I've obviously worked in leadership roles myself for quite a long time, but I don't feel like I feel like I'm much more motivated to help other leaders and help people improve than I am actually in organizations doing a small individual leadership role. I would much rather be having a bigger impact, and I think I'm able to do that through this platform.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Ben, when you think of over the course of your career and as you've you know continue to expand and develop on your expertise, what is it that you think you've figured out over time that makes you a good coach? You know, is there a secret ingredient that you think separates you from the the standard coach?

SPEAKER_00 6:51

I think it's the um I think personally it's my motivation. So the thing that motivates me is helping other people in that space. So for example, this is this is something I always found quite funny because I I do a lot of program project management work in the past, and I I'm a good project manager because I care about the stakeholders and I communicate effectively and I make sure people know what's going on, but I'm certainly not someone who's running around looking at my project plan. We've got to hit that deadline and oh my goodness, and and really focused on that target. So I found out uh sort of, you know, in the last probably the last five years or so that my motivation really comes from helping the people work together effectively to achieve something, as opposed to me focusing really on the on the end goal so much myself. I'm less focused on achieving the goal, like I'm less motivated by that. I'm more motivated by the people working in a good way and and having success themselves. So that's when it sort of lends itself to coaching, um, I think. And I think another thing, um someone mentioned to me the other day, um, I was coaching someone and it was the first call, you know, discovery call with them, and they said, Oh, you've got a really good um coaching approach, you have a real sort of coaching style, which is a funny thing to say because if you're coaching, you should have a coaching style.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Right, right, good point.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

But she's yeah, but she's in uh human resources quite high up in an organization, and she she sees a lot of different coaches, and she said a lot of them actually still try to solve the problem and try to try to tell you what the solution could be and all those sorts of things. Whereas I think um I've I've become much better at you know just sitting back and almost this isn't my problem we're solving here, it's the client's problem, and they have to take ownership of that. And knowing that makes a huge difference because once you stop trying to take ownership of solving the client's problem for them, um, they tend to get better results because they they go, they step back and they they start to have um good opportunity to think through things properly, and then when you develop actions, they start taking ownership of those and they start working towards them. So um, yeah, I think that's what differentiates me. Um, and the last couple of years I've started to notice that there are different types of coaches out there that um because the market is so saturated in the coaching space, I think we're seeing the huge spectrum of great coaches and not so great coaches. And you're seeing obviously if you had a bell curve, you probably got in the middle with the average ones. I'm hoping up there at the good end, but you know, who knows?

SPEAKER_03 9:28

You know, it's funny, Ben. We've had conversations in the past about what you just spoke about about, you know, the good culture, good coaches are really developing the critical thinking and problem solving skills, right, in their clients, right? And you know, I I'm wondering, I find a lot of times when I work with executives, there's a level of impatience and a level of instant gratification that, you know, hey, I've got an hour to have a coaching session with you, and we're gonna meet every two weeks, hypothetically. And so just tell me the answer. Like, because I got problems in my company and I just need to know how to fix them. And you know, I do a lot of work, you know, on the spectrum of conversational and emotional intelligence. So I'm curious, do you do you find, do you experience that need for instant gratification? And when you when you run into clients that are impatient and just want the answer, how do you how do you encounter that? Like how do you approach those situations?

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Yeah, it's a it's a common thing, I think. And it's I'm sort of lucky in some ways because what I realized a couple of years ago was that the people coming to my website, contacting me through my content and and getting to know me through through what I write and podcasts and things are those that are sort of on that thoughtful side of leadership. They I I tend to get less of the the alpha style leader who's focused on being uh, you know, I want to earn two million dollars a year or whatever it is, um less of that and more of the people that are really focused on people, on their people. As a result of that, I think most of the clients I get, I would say appreciate the coaching approach because they get to sit with someone and think through their challenges and use me as a sounding board as well. But I make it pretty clear up front that advice is not the thing, like I can give advice, and sometimes I will. There's no hard and fast rule, but if I do that, I'll usually ask permission for that advice. So, and the one thing I explain to people is you know, I can give you advice and tell you what to do, but you will always know your situation, your organization better than I do. So, and the other thing that is a problem is that the people will take no ownership if I give them advice and tell them what to do. So, if I say to you, Mark, you should go and do this thing with your training organisation, you'll say, Well, okay, cool, I'll try it. So, Mark goes away and tries it, doesn't work. He goes, Well, that was bad advice. If it does work, you go, Oh, yeah, well, that wasn't me. That was the coach telling me to do that. So you're they're missing an opportunity there to build their own confidence by developing their own actions, taking ownership. But if I do encounter the impatience, um, I think yeah, I explain all these things, and and then I think um, yeah, we just I think the best way to do it is to actually say, look, um, we're gonna do actual coaching here. I'm not gonna give you advice and actually give them the experience of coaching. And when people have a chance to spend an hour, hour and a half, whatever it is, in one of these proper coaching conversations, a lot of the time they'll just realize, oh, that's how this works. Because at the start, you think it would be much quicker just to give you advice, right? But that ownership is super important. If the client can't take ownership of what they're doing or building their own actions, sort of shaping their own destiny, let's call it, um, then they won't they won't build that confidence because they're always relying on someone else to do things for them.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

Ben, is there let's talk about Australia for a second. So, you know, we joked about this, I think, on our first call. When I I I've never been to Australia, I know very little about Australia, but when I think of a quote unquote Australian, okay, I think of someone who's cheery disposition, you know, not super talk about stereotypes, right? Not not super intense type A, a little more relaxed. So this is a guess, right? Like I I don't even know where I get that from, but point being is when you if you've worked with people American businessmen and women, you've worked with Australian businessmen and women. Is there a difference? Are there characteristics that differentiate the way we look at business as opposed to the way Australians look at business? Or is it just it depends who you're talking to, regardless of where you are?

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Uh, I think it's there are broad sweeping judgments that I would make as well from the the American side. But I think this is the thing. When I work with my clients, they they gravitate towards me for the reason that I'm writing about thoughtful leadership and all those sorts of things. So when I'm with people in the US, I haven't found them to be much different, to be honest. A lot of them are laid back, they're still having challenges, obviously. What I've noticed is that I think the pace in the US of the of corporate um you know business is still higher in the US in terms of work-life balance and all those sorts of things. It's almost like Australia on steroids, I think. There's still a lot of people working long hours, um, the higher workloads, not so much in Australia. We get actually more uh more leave as well. I think in general, you know, as a standard, let's say you get four weeks of leave a year. In the US, I think it's two. Um so there's things like that which I do notice. Um, but if you look at um one thing I was interested in with the US was um, I don't know if you come across Hofstetter's cultural dimensions, these um, you know, these things that define it's a lot of research done over the last 30, 40 years by a guy called Hofstetter, who um he tried to look at okay, the different cultures around the world and what are the characteristics of them. And Australia and US are very similar. Like if you look at the results, they're sort of um high individualistic um uh culture, um quite a bit of extroverted extroversion in the community. Um what were the other ones? Uh fairly low power distance in terms of you know, do I respect my leaders or do I feel comfortable challenging them? And Australia and US in all these things are so similar, it's really not much different. Um, and then uh yeah, things like China, for example, or Japan, really different because they've got huge respect for their leaders, very resistant to pushing back on them and that sort of stuff. So that's where there's huge differences. Um, and that's as a culture as a whole, right? You can't really say this individual person is the same way as that culture that you're dealing with individuals, but it's just a guideline, and it was um, so yeah, so uh to answer your question in a very long-winded way. I reckon it's pretty similar.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

Yeah, so Ben, I gotta ask you, have you ever heard of the comedian George Carlin? Yes, okay. Have you ever listened to any of his stuff?

SPEAKER_00 16:42

I haven't.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

Okay. So George Carlin, there's a there's actually a documentary right now. I I don't I I can't it's not on Netflix, I think it was on HBO or Showtime, and uh in the in the States, and he was a pioneer comedian in the in the 70s and 80s, and he was very big on word choice. Like he did a lot of comedy on words and the meaning of words and how they can be taken wrong, and so on and so forth. And you know what, you know, when I talk to you, well, I'm very big on word choice. So I I I like I like to get in conversations with people about words that could have multiple meanings: respect, trust, loyalty, integrity, like all these words that are so broad, right? And so where I'm going with this is the word thoughtful. And you know, I this is one of the reasons that attracted to me to you as a person, to you as a professional, and to your blog, because if if I was to think of so I'm gonna be a little corny here for a second, Ben, right? So if I was to think of a characteristic, a universal characteristic of someone I would want in my life as a colleague, as a friend, as a family member, as a life partner, thoughtful may be the word I would start with, right? You know, like like who wouldn't want to be around a thoughtful person? But I guess what I where I want to start with you on this is when you say the word thoughtful, like expand on it a little bit, like because thoughtful has a lot of components to it. So what are you shooting for? If I if you coached me, okay, and you said, Mark, I want you to be thoughtful, or I hope you'll become more thoughtful, meaning what?

SPEAKER_00 18:40

So meaning uh leading, let's say if it's in a leadership context, leading with intention. And what I mean by that is being intentional about what you're doing, and you know, to expand on that further, thinking about the impact your leadership is having on the people around you, whether it be your boss, your team, colleagues, whatever it is, customers. Um, that's what it comes down to, really, is that intention. So what kind of the reason I came up with that years ago and decided to make it, you know, my blog name was uh I just saw, especially in my consulting career, I got exposed to a lot of different work environments and high pressure situations, and I just noticed all this what I sort of call unintentional leadership happening, where people were just blundering into situations with teams where they would cause huge conflict without thinking. And it's not necessarily because they were bad people or um but it was more because they just weren't thinking and thinking what's the impact I'm having today on the people around me. That's that's what thoughtful means for me.

SPEAKER_03 19:46

Okay, so listen, I I I'm gonna throw you right on the hot seat. You ready? Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna play the role of a prospective coaching client. No, no, I'll play the role of an actual coaching client, and I'm gonna play dumb to make a point here. Okay, and I'm gonna set this up for our audience by if if I worked with you and I said, I want you to do some self-reflection on blank. I think a lot of people would look at me like I have three heads, like, well, what do you mean by that? Like, what do you actually want me to do? Right? So, Ben, here's my question for you. You say you want people to consider the impact of what they're doing. So here's how I'm gonna play dumb. Okay, how do I do that? You know, as a leader, how would you like me to consider the impact of what I'm doing?

SPEAKER_00 20:39

How would you do that? So I would say, okay, um, you've got, you know, let's say you've got five people in your team. When you when you communicate uh with these people, um what sort of communication style do you generally use?

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Uh what are my choices?

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Uh well you can well, okay. What may let's say what medium you use.

SPEAKER_03 21:06

Beautiful. Oh, I love where you went there. Okay. Uh you know, typically email, it depends. Sometimes I may pick up the phone or do a zoom or or maybe in person if it's applicable, but yeah, more so email.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

Okay. And so mostly email, right? But can change depending on the situation. If have you ever um had a time where you've actually communicated with your team about how they might want to be communicated with.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

Uh I'm gonna play along and say not formally. I mean, we've had really kind of reactive discussions about it, but if you're asking me if I've been intentional about setting expectations or understanding how they're motivated, I would say no.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

Okay, and um so I'd say is it um you know is it possible that some people in your team sort of thrive on different types of communication than others?

SPEAKER_03 22:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Okay. And you know what's what's the impact, do you think, if you if you look a bit longer term and you go, okay, what's the impact of me communicating really well with some people and not at all with others in the team?

SPEAKER_03 22:22

All right. So, Ben, so of course, because you're great at what you do, you you did it with flying colors. The thing though, I want our listeners to pick up about what Ben did, right? Is not only are there so many ways to be thoughtful, but there's so many layers to being thoughtful, right? It's so Ben talks about what mode of communication, be thoughtful about mode of communication, be thoughtful about how your team wants to be communicated with feedback, be thoughtful about how they're motivated, how they like to be appreciated, how you lead meetings, how you lead one-on-ones, right? Ben, like the list goes on and on. I mean, it's right.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Well, I think um, and it's important to, you know, I think it's good to acknowledge that some people will naturally be more conscious of what their team are feeling than others. You know, some people have are really tuned in on the relationship side, other leaders are more results focused and they they love hitting the targets. And these are all good things, right? You you can't, you know, people focus leaders, and and I would consider myself to be one of them. The danger they have is focusing too much on the people, not at the outcomes, because you still need results. I mean, that's why you're in a leadership role. So I was very conscious during my career to start to keep focusing on that, you know, goal setting and targets element. You can't just help your people and focus on them too much. So I'd say that you know, there's a if it's hard to just say to someone, just be thoughtful. So, which is sort of where um I think it's important to motivate, it helps to motivate people when they start to think of the potential impact of not thinking. So if you just go through and do whatever you want to do, because you know, let's assume that everyone likes communicating the same way that I do, for example, then thinking about getting people to think harder about the impact of what happens if things go wrong because they haven't really thought about you know how they're dealing with people. And I think that's a good way, that can be a good way to motivate people in terms of okay, I want to avoid that bad thing, so maybe I'll put a little bit more thought into it. And you know, you can you can almost um in some ways it comes naturally to some people, but you can sort of, you know, develop checklists and little points where you can, you know, remote working is great for some reasons. You can whack a post-it note on your monitor that says, think about these three things today, and you can have that as a visual prompt, you know. So there there are ways to sort of um get yourself to be more thoughtful without expecting yourself to naturally fall into that that pattern because some people are more thoughtful than others, I would say. And it doesn't make them bad or good leaders, it just means they might have to work harder in some areas.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

So, but let's go the complete opposite direction. I would imagine it's not uncommon for you to work with leaders that go too far on the thoughtful side, right? Like they're overly thinking and worried. So, talk a little bit about that and what what are some pieces of advice and recommendations you make when when you have that?

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah, the the so the overthinking thing is a big thing when you're talking about people that you know I would categorize as thoughtful leaders. Because you can get tied up in okay, I've got eight people in my team, and I have to communicate with all of them differently, and I have to understand all their preferences, and then after a while, you you can't actually do anything because you're paralyzed with all the options that you could use to communicate with each individual team member, and I've got to cater for their special needs. And while that is true to a point, there is definitely too much, you can go too far where you try to bend over backwards and satisfy every single preference because you're so focused on making them happy. Um, that can be a problem as well. So, in terms of the overthinking space, what I generally do is I target if I'm working with someone who seems to be overthinking, I'll target the areas and we'll really dig deep into what about this is encouraging you to overthink. So, what about this situation is causing you that anxiety or whatever it might be? And often it comes down to things like, well, I feel like if I don't do this thing, then um if I don't, you know, let's say, let's say someone's a bit prone to micromanagement. If I don't do that, I feel like the quality of the outcome will be no good. I feel like I'll look bad. So it's good, it's good to dig into the detail of the bit that they're overthinking and then go into okay, what is it about that situation that makes you feel like you need to control it and think about it so much? And that tends to turn into a different conversation about okay, well, how can we, you know, not worry so much about the quality of the output and feel relaxed that our team are going to deliver what we need to. And yeah, so it's challenging some of the beliefs as well that people have. One of my favorite coaching questions is um, what what are the benefits to you of staying the way you are now or not making a change? And people don't think that way normally. They think, well, they think, well, there's no benefit. I'm in a bad situation and I'm not enjoying myself at all. And you think, well, hold on a minute. If you're not having, let's say you have to have a difficult conversation with your boss, and without that difficult conversation, you're unhappy. So, what's the benefit of not having that difficult conversation? Well, the benefit is I don't have to have this uncomfortable conversation and I feel better because I don't get anxious about it. So that's the benefit that's keeping you staying the same. And then when you start to challenge that benefit and go, well, is that really a benefit? Then people start to go, well, yeah, maybe not, because in the long run I'm going to be unhappy anyway if I don't have this conversation. That's just an example for you. But that's one of my favorite questions in terms of people don't usually think there's a benefit to staying the same, but they there usually is, and that's why people um struggle to change habits and routines and all these sorts of things.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

And you know, in my experience, the word thoughtful is frustrating to a lot of leaders in this context. That I believe thoughtfulness is confused with the tur phrases high maintenance and walking on eggshells. So if a leader has different people on their team with different personalities and communication styles and motivation styles and all that kind of stuff, you know, I I often hear leaders say, Oh, I mean, I gotta talk this way to this person and I gotta do it differently with this person. And it's become like a resentment point. And and you know what's funny, Ben? Before I ask you to give give your thoughts on it, what's interesting to me about this concept is I do a lot of work in generational communication, and what's fascinating to me about generational communication is it's a simple concept. Every human being is different from one another, right? Doesn't matter what the generation is, we're all still different from one another. But it's it's but but so my point to you is you know, have you run into any of that? We'll call it people are high maintenance, I have to walk on eggshells mentality because I have to be thoughtful.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

Yeah, definitely. And and I sort of I can I can definitely understand that thinking as well, because there is um, there's you know, especially in the last let's say 20, 30 years, the shift towards um people wanting to be happy at work and and trying to enjoy their work has got a lot stronger. Oh, well, but actually the last couple of years it's sort of much stronger because of the pandemic, and people are going, you know what, I want more out of my life. So I think it's yeah, it's a it's a tricky one because I can sort of understand where people are coming from, but I think that the best thing to do is, and I would say I would never go almost 100% trying to satisfy every preference of my team because it's all well, it's very difficult and time consuming, and your job is to lead as well as help your team, support your team. It's not just to you know cater for every every whim that they might have. But I think you if you can go, you know, 70, 80 percent of the way there and go, okay, okay, everyone, this is how I'm going to communicate with the team, and you have a few different methods in there, maybe to cater for a few different communication styles, let's say, and then you sort of go, you know, you explain the reasons why you can't cater for everything, I think is an important one as well. So if you if you are acting in a way you think may um upset someone or that's not their normal personal style, I think explaining the context behind that is a very useful thing to do for them to say, here's why I can't um satisfy your exact requirement as well as the whole team, because the whole team is important. And as long as you give that recognition um and you know and and your intentions are sort of clear so your people can see that, oh yeah, you're putting some thought into it. It's not just that you're not you're not having any thought about it at all. I think that's important, but then I think um, you know, the walking on eggshells thing, you know, you would have seen this a billion times, you know. I have sent the email out, therefore I have communicated, right? And it's like, well, have you? Because has anyone read it and all those sort of things? Um it's that sort of thing where I think you you've just I think the important thing is to is to encourage people to think about what is the impact in the longer term of having that sort of blanket behaviour that won't suit a lot of your team members because they think differently to you. And I think um in the long term, if you if you unpack it, a lot of it causes huge issues. So, yes, I communicated because I sent the email. Was it effective? No. Did it have a big knock-on effect where people came and asked me a million questions because they didn't understand what I was talking about? All these sorts of things. I think there's big ramifications to that. So people think that their life is annoying because they have to cater for the needs of their team. It's usually going to be more annoying if you don't make an effort to do that somewhat, is what I would say.

SPEAKER_03 32:35

Well, and and I want to expand on what you said. It's only I sent the email out and I communicated, it's I had the meeting and I communicated, or I had the one-on-one and I communicated. And Ben, it's so funny. Like one of one of my favorite things is let's say you're on my team and you're not hitting your deadlines. And so, how does that meeting typically go? The leader sits down and says, So, Ben, you know, I just wanted to sit down with you and let you know, you know, you're you're not really hitting the deadlines, and you need to hit the deadlines. And that's the coaching, right? Like, thanks, because I I didn't know I didn't have to hit any deadlines. So thanks for that brilliant insight. So it's so it's such a big point, like it's a subtle thing, but it there there's look when when you're a when you're a leader or you're a parent, you know, you sign up for some from what it's work, right? Like it's work, and there is some follow-through, and there is some need to be thoughtful in how to influence situations. So I I love that. So, Ben, last question is you know, if you're a coach, theoretically, you're a lifelong learner, right? You value learning, you have intellectual curiosity. I'm not I'm not willing to go as far to say everybody who is a coach feels that way. Theoretically, it's how it should be, but that's not necessarily the case. For you, when you look at the great reputation your company has and the success you've had, what do you pinpoint in terms of your how you supplement your learning and how you stay sharp and things like that? What are the things you attribute that have really uh keyed the way to that that continuous learning?

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Yeah, it's a good question. And I think um the learning thing comes from me from feeling the motivation to keep learning and developing comes from my uh the the want to help my help my clients get better. So I feel like if I'm not getting better, if I'm not making any effort to develop my skills or learn new things or break habits or you know, um, why would they bother? You know, if I don't have new tools and things that I've tried out and techniques, and you know, why would they adopt anything that I tell them is a possible option as well? So I feel for me, I feel like and the other thing is, you know, if I don't sleep well or eat well or exercise and all these sorts of things, looking after myself, I can't really look after the people I'm working with either. That's a big thing for me because I know I know what it's like when I've had a have a very bad sleep and then I've rocked up at a coaching session and um my my mind is fried and it's very difficult to do effective coaching in that state. And so um these are things I really focus on. It's about being able to serve the people the best way I can. So so the um to get to you know, what sort of ways do I keep learning? I guess I um one thing is I do I do sit spend a lot of time on LinkedIn just seeing what's out there. Um, I must admit, I don't I don't read heaps of leadership literature or anything because, like you, I'm a little bit skeptical about some of it when I see, um, you know, I think we've talked about it before. Someone will say, you know, one of the advice in a in a leadership article is, oh, you should write a strategy. I said, Oh, that's cool. That's one bullet point, but I don't know how to write a strategy, so what do I do now? Right. So that's great. So and this is where I guess the one thing I focus on my content is I try to every time I write an article, I say, go, so what? So what do you what are they gonna do with this thing? Like, what are they gonna do with this knowledge? Is there a takeaway here or is it just me whinging about bad leaders or something? That's that's not what I want to get out of it. So um, yeah, but in terms of learning, so I do that, just keep an eye on what's out there. So I see a lot of trends and things happening, you know, lately the psychological safety, huge concept that's been, and it's been around for a while, but but it's hugely popular now in terms of people talking about it, writing about it, stuff like that. So I know that's on the tip of everyone's lips. I actually really like I actually really like mindset stuff, which is awesome because you're a mindset person as well. You love that. Um, your business is called that, so I guess that makes sense. Um the things like um uh one I found recently, this podcast, the neuroscientist, um, at I think uh one of the one of the popular universities in um in the US, and he talks about you know way he dumb, he he collates the research on a certain area, and he says, based on how the brain works and the body works, this is these are some practical ways that you can implement this in your um in your life. So, and so he dumbs down the research, which is quite hard to get through if you didn't have someone doing it for you, and then he goes, and this is why it can be applied, and this is the things you can do. So it might be to improve your sleep or be better at goal setting, whatever it might be. I love that sort of stuff because I feel like that sort of content is not really accessible to the normal person without a huge amount of effort. Um so this guy does it does a really good job of that. And these are the things I really like. They're more about, so actually I'd say less about leadership and more about less about leadership specifically, more about leading yourself, managing yourself better, managing stress, um, uh yeah, dealing with people better, um and almost controlling yourself in a better way so that you can show up every day and lead better, as opposed to here's this leadership tool, because there is no leadership tool that I've ever seen that will solve your leadership problems. There are good ones out there, there's good things you can take from all different areas. The real problem I find, and I'm sure you're probably the same, is that yeah, okay, I've got this cool tool. How do I actually use it in my organization? Because you know, my boss doesn't support me or my colleagues are not nice to me, or whatever it is, you know, any number of problems. It's actually applying the things that you have, the tools, that's the trick. It's not the tool, the tools are often quite simple. It's actually good putting it in practice and sticking with it. I see this huge, you know, time management is a massive one. Some people I run some time management training sometimes, and some people come to the course and they go, Yeah, I want some time management tools. And it's like, well, okay, that's cool. And we have some of those for you, but one of your biggest tools is going to be pushing back on stuff that people ask you to do, and that is not an easy thing to do without. And no, no tool is going to help you do that. That's you being able to behave that way and you know have those difficult conversations.

SPEAKER_03 39:33

Yeah. All right, Ben, before we sign off, we've got to have you educate our audience on something you taught me in one of our first conversations. Let our listeners know what tall poppy syndrome is.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Oh, yeah. Actually, I think I missed an opportunity there when you're talking about the US versus Australia, because I think this is a little bit of a difference here. Um okay, if I'm going to go broad brush, you know, let's talk about stereotypes and things like that. I would say the persona of um of these, I know the US people is so varied, right? So this is this is a terrible thing to say, but it's like more, more, um, more outgoing, more sort of brash and confident, and more like uh if I'm if I'm seen as the big celebrity and and and I'm at the top of my game, everyone's loving it. And and so that's a promoted that more more easily promote themselves, I would say, in the US. And that's not to say there's no imposter syndrome and things like that with people, but I would say, you know, that's the that's the sort of thing that I perceive as the the general um you know perception of things. In Australia, what I've noticed is, and this makes it very hard if you're trying to run your own business, I think, at least getting started, is there's this thing called tall poppy syndrome that you mentioned, that basically the people who rise to the top like a poppy that's growing above the rest of them, the um the chopper will come and chop the top of that poppy off so that they're all level. So, what in Australia is that that thing is the tall poppy syndrome describes a situation where people sort of try to drag everyone down to their level. So if someone, if someone in Australia goes and big notes themselves and says, I'm the best at this and I'm the best at that, you'll notice that with some of our sporting stars, um, the ones that really go nuts about I'm the best and I'm gonna be the best and I'm gonna do this, people in Australia tend to really not like that too much in general. Um, whereas the people who are humble, so you might have come across, you know, Ash Barty from tennis, and she won Wimbledon and all this sort of stuff recently. Um she is super humble. Like you would never hear her bragging or saying how good she is, but she's amazing. And people love that in Australia, they love it because she's just like us. Well, actually, she's not, she's like super amazing, but um, but I think that's um the tall poppy makes it, you know. So people put their put themselves out on social media saying, I'm doing this and I'm doing that. And there's this, this, there's this thing where people go, Oh, come on, come on, mate, don't say that stuff, you know, don't talk yourself up. You know, that that they really I really resist that. And I'm not saying that doesn't go on in the US as well, but I feel like it's very strong in Australia.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And you know, it is funny, like I hear you say that. Like, I what's interesting, I'm a big sports fan, and when teams tend to win a lot in the US, like the Patriots, you know, people want to bring them down. They don't like it, they like it to a point, but then people get sick of sports too. So in sports, there is a little tall poppy syndrome at times, yeah. But in regular, not so much.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Yeah, so uh I I heard it described by someone I was talking to someone in the US um a little while ago where they described it as you know, there's crabs in a bucket, and the crab, one crab, if it makes a break and tries to get to the top of the bucket, other ones will claw at it and try to bring it down, and that's a similar thing. Yeah, I like that, yeah. So yeah, I agree. I think I I think the same thing, sporting sporting teams in in Australia. We like it to be even, you know, in that sort of thing, and get too ahead of yourself.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Have you ever been to the Australian Open Tennis Tournament?

unknown 43:15

I haven't.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

No, okay. I'm not a huge tennis fan, to be honest. Okay, um, yeah, big rugby fan. Um rugby is slowly growing in the US. It is. I'm a little bit I'm a little bit scared because the US has such a massive population that if they decided one day we want to be really good at this rugby thing, I think they've very they could easily be.

SPEAKER_03 43:38

Yeah. Yeah, good point.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

They've got so many sports.

SPEAKER_03 43:43

I love it. Well, well, Ben Brerley, um, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you on i communicate. And uh, you know, um Ben, if and if people want to learn more information about you, how to reach you, what's the best way?

SPEAKER_00 44:00

I'd say my website's the best way, uh thoughtfullever.com or one word. Uh and I'm on LinkedIn as well. So yeah, you can hit me up there and send me a message as well.

SPEAKER_03 44:12

Hi, Ben. Well, uh again, thanks for being on the show, and uh we'll look forward to talking to you again in the future future and have a great night.

SPEAKER_00 44:20

Awesome. Thank you, Mike. Appreciate you having me on.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

All right, and for I Communicate, I'm Mark Altman.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Someone mentioned to me the other day um I was coaching someone, and it was the first call, you know, discovery call with them. And they said, Oh, you've got a really good um coaching approach. You have a real sort of coaching style, which is a funny thing to say because if you're coaching, you should have a coaching style. She takes a lot of different approaches, and she said a lot of them actually still try to solve the problem and try to try to tell you what the solution could be and all those sorts of things. Whereas I think I'm I've I've become much better at you know sitting back and almost it'sn't my problem we're solving here, it's the client's problem, and I have to take ownership of that. And knowing that makes a huge difference because once you stop trying to take ownership of solving the client's problem for them, um they tend to get better results because they I sit back and they I start to have um good opportunity to think through things properly, and then when you develop actions, I start taking ownership of those and I start working towards them.

SPEAKER_03 47:37

You experience that need for instant gratification, and when you when you run into clients that are impatient and just want the answer. How do you how do you encounter that? Like, how do you approach those situations?

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Most of the clients I get, I'll say uh appreciate a coaching approach because I get to sit with someone and think through their challenges, and you can get the sounding board as well. But I make it pretty clear up front that advice is not the thing, like I can give advice, and sometimes I will. There's no hard and fast rule, but if I do that, I'll usually ask permission for that advice. So the one thing I explain to people is that I can give you advice and tell you what to do, but you will always know your situation, your organization better than I do. So, and the other thing that is a problem is that the people will take no ownership if I give them advice and tell them what to do. So, if I say to you, Mark, you should go and do this thing with your training organization, you'll say, Well, okay, cool, I'll try it. So Mark goes away and tries it. It doesn't work, he goes, Well, that was bad advice. If it does work, you go, Oh, yeah, well, that wasn't me, that was the coach telling me to do that. So you're they're missing an opportunity there to build their own confidence by developing their own actions, taking ownership. But if I do encounter the impatience, um, I think I explain all these things, and and then I think um, yeah, we just I think the best way to do it is to actually say, look, um, we're gonna do actual coaching here, I'm not gonna give you advice and actually give them the experience of coaching. And when people have a chance to spend an hour, hour and a half, whatever it is, in one of these proper coaching conversations, a lot of the time they'll just realize, oh, that's how this works. Because at the start, you think it would be much quicker just to give you advice, right? But that ownership is super important. If the client can't take ownership of what they're doing or building their own actions, sort of shaping their own destiny, let's call it, um, then they won't they won't build that confidence because they're always relying on someone else to do things for them.

SPEAKER_03 54:20

Expand on it a little bit, like because thoughtful has a lot of components to it. So what are you shooting for? If I if you coached me, okay, and you said, Mark, I want you to be thoughtful.

SPEAKER_04 54:34

I hope you'll become more thoughtful. Meaning what?

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Uh meaning uh leading, let's say if it's a leadership context, leading with intention. And what I mean by that is being intentional about what you're doing, and you know, to expand on that further, thinking about the impact your leadership is having on the people around you, whether it be your boss, your team, colleagues, whatever it is, customers. Um, that's what it comes down to, really, is that intention. So what kind of reason I came up with that years ago and decided to make it, you know, my blog name was uh I just saw, especially in my consulting career, I got exposed to a lot of different work environments and high pressure situations, and I just noticed all this what I sort of call unintentional leadership happening, where people were just blundering into situations with teams where they would cause huge conflict without thinking. And it's not necessarily because they were bad people or um that was more because they just weren't thinking and thinking what's the impact I'm having today on the people around me. That's what hopeful means for me.