Debbie Watters

Debbie Watters is co-director of restorative justice project NI Alternatives and is a former vice chair of the Northern Ireland Policing Board.

In this conversation Debbie takes us back to her childhood to share how her faith has always helped her defy labels and challenge the status quo.  Here she talks candidly about a passion that drives her to move beyond her own perspectives and the struggles that this can throw up.

Debbie speaks passionately about the hurts and hopes she sees within loyalist communities.  She has  a challenging message about how we need to be prepared to own the sectarianism she believes is part of all of us.   She also pleads for issues of discrimination and poverty to be urgently addressed; advocating that this offers us a path to greater peace.

Transcript

Jude: Today’s podcast chat is with the tenacious Debbie Watters, she’s co-director of a restorative justice programme, Northern Ireland Alternatives, and is a former vice-chair of the policing board. Debbie is a mover and shaker, and in this conversation, she shares how defying labels has always been her thing, whether that was challenging the status-quo in her community as a child, or her choices to actively understand narratives beyond her own. Here, Debbie talks about pushing back against stereotyping of loyalism and how she’s prepared to own the sectarianism she believes is part of all of us. It’s a fascinating listen, lasts for around 40 minutes, and then we’ll reflect at the end. So here is Peace by Piece, with Debbie Watters. 

Hi Debbie, thank you so much for your time in a busy schedule this morning, it’s lovely to see you! 

Debbie: Hi Jude, good morning. Good to be here. 

Jude: Morning! I Know you’re a very efficient morning person, so I feel like you’ve probably already conquered the world and it’s only 10:23!

Debbie: I wish! I’m not a morning person by choice, I’m a morning person due to lack of sleep! I’ve been in the office since about eight, and I’m just getting administration done, which isn’t my forte, Jude.

Jude: The dreaded admin! 

Debbie: The dreaded admin, I know! 

Jude: Said, spoken from your very soul! 

Debbie, I know it’s a workday morning but describe to us what home feels like for you, is it a place or is it something that you’re doing that gives you, gives you that feeling of belonging?

Debbie: That’s a really good question, Jude. I am, I don’t want to sound trite when I say this, but really my home—I have many homes, I would think. I would say family, where I live, but the place that I love being, is in Alternatives. It really and truly is my home, I helped start the organisation twenty three years ago, and we’ve just, we’ve grown it over the years from two staff to about forty five staff, and work for me, Alternatives probably is a job, but it’s a passion, it’s a hobby, it’s a vocation, for the most part. Northern Ireland Alternatives is a personification of who I am as a person.

Jude: For people who have heard the name but don’t know what it’s all about, can you capture for us the heart of it and how it actually plays out in communities?

Debbie: In short, Alternatives is based on restorative principles so what that means is we’re an organisation that works with conflict and works with crime within the community and that’s all different types of conflict, and rather seeing conflict and crime through the lens of breaking rules, we see it through the lens of hurting people and damaging relationships and so our ethos and approach is to look at the conflict, look at who’s been hurt, how they’ve been hurt, who’s  hurt them and what’s the responsibility of that person or group to make things as right as possible. What it looks like on the ground is that, for example if we’re working with a young person who’s been involved in criminality, we talk to them about why did you do that, what took you to that place, why did you make those choices, who have you hurt and what are you going to do to make things as right as possible? So for me it’s very much a human and a person-centred approach to dealing with crime, conflict and issues of neighbourhood dispute and even issues around how community tension plays out this time of the year, what is our responsibility in that, to the rest of the people in our community to cause as little hurt and damage as possible.

Jude: We will come back to tease more of that out and really get your sense of what is happening on the ground in a few moments time but first I really wanted to ask you about peace making, which is really why we’re here, chatting today, so can you tell us just how important that is to you and your story and in the work you do, what does it mean to you? 

Debbie: I suppose, Jude, to answer that I need to take you back to when I was a teenager and maybe not everyone knows my backstory, but I became a Christian in my early teens and church and faith really impacted my direction of travel and the lens in which I saw the world then. So for me one of the biggest influences was, apart from the Bible, was a book called ‘Rich Christians In An Age of Hunger’. And it was really about what’s the responsibility of Christians and the church, how do we do church, how do we do faith, when people are dying of hunger in the world? When people are homeless? When we’re living in a contested society like were and still are in this jurisdiction, and for me that became the essence of my faith, and I suppose if you look at Jesus and the Bible and how he lived his life, it was really about how he engaged with the poor, how he engaged with the marginalized, the disenfranchised and how he held church leaders to account who really weren’t doing right by the poorest and most vulnerable in our society, that is what shaped me as a teenager and I suppose for me then, peace making became central to how I did faith and when I went to Jordan’s Town to study social policy, I looked for an outlet for me to do peace making and to do social justice, and every Tuesday and Thursday night, I would get the bus into Belfast from Jordan’s Town, where I was living, and in my naivety back then, in the early 90’s, I walked from the city centre up to 174 Trust on the Antrim Road, did youth work, did peace building, engaged with communities, for me it was critical that I did that, and it was critical that I did it with the other community from the community that I grew up in because I wanted to learn. I wanted to put myself in the shoes of the other and I wanted them to help me see their world through a different lens. 

Jude: And that awakening at such a young age and that desire to move between communities, and beyond labels, how did that go down you know in your own circles, was there any reaction to that?

Debbie: I probably am—was always I think quite rebellious by nature, my parents would probably agree with that and my dad, who has passed away, would always have said I had that streak in me, you know not to do something rebellious because it was the opposite, but I was always looking at—I was never a conformist, in my approach to things, I always was very analytical, reflective, and always was thinking why are we doing this? And just because it’s the norm doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. The other thing, Jude, that really shaped me was I passed the 11+ and went to Rainey Endowed Grammar School and it was a mixed school, so Catholic boys went to Rainey Endowed and the girls went to the Convent, so I grew up in an educational environment that was Catholic and Protestant. And that was really good for me, so for me the doing peace building beyond labels started very early, and because I was at school with people from the Catholic tradition, for my family, they kind of accepted that I was a wee bit different, and because I was the only one in my family who was a Christian at that stage, therefore I was probably just written off as ‘that’s our Deborah you know she’s always a wee bit different, it wasn’t a huge issue for them, we had difficult conversations, we had difficult debates, we challenged each other but that was allowed in my family we weren’t a quiet family, we were a family that did stuff with four siblings, five kids, we did stuff noisily, chaotically, and we all had our own opinions and we debated around the table and debate was okay. Actually, what I loved about my parents and looking back now being a parent where I maybe try to control my child too much, my parents didn’t have the time or the energy to do that, they just said ‘that’s our Deborah let her be’ or ‘that’s our Richard’ or ‘that’s our Judith—that’s just who they are’. They were great at allowing each of us to be different and not to put us into a box and I didn’t value that at the time but looking back I really respect them for that because a lot of people don’t parent that way, a lot of people parent in a way ‘you need to be like me’. It wasn’t difficult for me, as a teenager, probably church thought ‘she’s a wee bit too different and she’s asking too many difficult questions’. I mean I used to say ‘why do we do church on a Sunday evening’ ‘it’s tradition’ ‘but why? What’re we getting out of it?’ and those questions were kind of frowned upon, but I just kept asking and pushing and I think as long as you do that respectfully, we all should be allowed to do that. 

Jude: And was there a moment or was it just a natural evolution in your journey that you knew peace making was gonna go on to form the basis of the work that you now do, can you tell us about your journey into the world of work?

Debbie: I always knew that this was my calling, so I just very naively assumed the doors would just open for me. So after my volunteering days with 174, when I graduated from Ulster University, I applied for a job with 174. They took a risk on me, and I worked with 174 for a couple of years, doing peace building work and actually working with people with disabilities, and how to help meet their needs and integrate them into society, and many people wouldn’t see that as peace building, but for me true peace building is working with all marginalised people, giving them a path and a journey in from the cold, so it was really good for me that I started with that. I still have a real passion for working with people with disabilities and that also comes from my uncle has down syndrome and so I’ve grown up with that, and it has always been my norm so my first two years in the world of work was with the 174 Trust, and I loved it. I loved working on the Antrim Road, I loved working in the new lodge, I loved doing all of that work because it was challenging. It took me out of my loyalist unionist background, and it helped me really push the boundaries in terms of my thinking, where my norms weren’t everybody’s norms, so I thought the norms for everybody was that you know you would see the world through the lens of we were remaining British, the British state was good, all of that, and I began to hear stories around actually I’m Irish, and we’re fighting a legitimate war, and we accept the IRA as a legitimate army, and I didn’t have to agree with that to understand that journey, and to understand that their story was totally legitimate for them and credible for them, so Jude I probably needed that, at that point in time, it was a good challenge for me before I moved to The States and I began to understand that we need people in the peace building world who can see things from all sides, and don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t silent in that place in 174 Trust because I was able to push back and say ‘well if I’m willing to put myself in your shoes, you have to be willing to put yourself in my shoes, listen to my journey, listen to how it’s shaped me, and see my story as authentic and credible, so that was really important for me because often times I think, this is my experience, people see loyalism as being sectarianism as being sectarian, and they see anything nationalist or republican as non-sectarian. And I think it’s important for me to push back against that because we’re all sectarian, we’ve grown up in a contested sectarian society. Am I sectarian? I am. The only way to change that and work at that is to acknowledge it, address it, and move on from it. So for people in our society to say that they’re not sectarian or racist at all, that’s just not possible. We are all flawed human beings,  let’s admit who we are and let’s address that and move on from it collectively. 

Jude: Oh there’s so much in there, and those moments that you mentioned then when something when you listen to a story and something does jar with you, how do you then work through that, or what’s your process of really trying to gain understanding or see—see it from someone else’s position?

Debbie: I have been very blessed Judith with a really amazing group of friends, and they’re people who I’d probably use as a sounding board. The more difficult peace is, moving on, not moving on from your roots but learning from what in your life story in your journey, you think needs to change, yeah, so from a very honest perspective I still get annoyed when I hear ‘Brits Out’ because I am British and so I have to work through that, but I work through that by also a challenge function, so I’m able to say to someone, my Nationalist and Republican friends, when you say that, this is how I experience that, you might mean the British Army, I experience that as me. So for me, language is really important in my journey. And some people say to me, you shouldn’t have to do that, you should just be able to say what you want, and what you intend to say, just say it. I—I don’t agree with that anymore. On a peace building journey and through the lens of social justice, I also have a responsibility to think about how are other people going to experience what I say, and so I have worked very hard to change how I present myself, how I present my journey, how I present my story and how I present my work in a way that others can experience it but without diluting it, and without negating my roots or who I am. And that’s not always an easy thing, Jude, it’s not always an easy thing to do because that’s juggling a lot of balls in the air, but if we are authentic and true to peace building, we all need to do that, if we all did that, and we were genuinely committed to reconciliation that would mean something very different for us and I work with people day and daily in Loyalism who are very intentional about doing that. The bit when it’s hardest is when we come to times of the year that are still extremely contested, like bonfire season, like Easter, like parading, like internment, all of those times of the year where people tend to resort to type, I think the true gage of how far we have moved and how far I have moved, is do I resort to type at those times of the year, or can I maintain that commitment to reconciliatory and peace building language, people might experience that as being soft, I don’t experience that as being soft and that isn’t my intention, my intention is how do we do reconciliation well, in a contested society and still be true to your own philosophy and ethos and the more that people do that, the more that politicians do it, and are very mindful of our language, I think we would be in a much better place because we’re not in a good place at the minute. 

Jude: In the restorative justice work that you do within the Loyalist communities how do you walk the line between dealing with the realities of the fact that paramilitaries still control communities but also not wanting to validate the paramilitary structures, how does that work out for you?

Debbie: First and for most, organisationally we work with people. So if you break it down, who are paramilitaries? Paramilitaries haven’t flown in from Mars, they’re not aliens, they haven’t parachuted into these communities so they’re brothers, they’re uncles, they’re husbands, they’re neighbours, they’re people that serve me in the shop, they’re people that pick me up in taxis and give me lifts places, they are ordinary people, who joined an organisation for what they felt at the time was a legitimate cause, yeah, and they gave a good portion of they’re lives to fight that cause. We’re now in a different place, and twenty three years on from the signing of the Good Friday Agreement people would say should paramilitarism still exist, yeah, and I don’t think that it should. I think we should have been at a different place, but I think that the reality is we are where we are, and we need to work within that very realistic structure. The paramilitary structure or system should not exist anymore, but it does, and we need to work within that context. Do paramilitaries still control all working class Loyalist Protestant communities? I don’t think they do. I think there are some communities that still have a level of paramilitary control, yes, and still have a high level of criminality but all of that criminality does not come from paramilitaries, because in my opinion in some areas paramilitary groups have morphed into criminal groups and so that is totally a policing issue, and it’s not up to me to solve that issue, it’s up to criminal justice and it’s up to policing to solve the issues of active paramilitarism and criminal gangs, and what I mean by that is also things like drug dealing.

Jude: Is there a role within what you do to challenge the paramilitary leaderships as well or is it a case of you have to work within the structures?

Debbie: Yeah, so for me, working with paramilitaries, Jude, has been a key element of our work, actually Alternatives was set up to challenge that whole system of paramilitary style attacks, so from day one that interface was critical to us, and it was also critical that we build a good working relationship with community leaders but also that we perform that challenge function, so think about it, people often say to us, you don’t challenge enough, but actually when you’re going to a grouping and you’re saying, listen, beating or shooting somebody is wrong, and we would like you to back off and we would like to take that young person through a restorative process, you’re actually critiquing what they do, you’re challenging what they do, you’re saying, violence is wrong and we want you to go with us on this journey of non-violence. So from day one, we performed that challenge function, and actually paramilitary organisations at that stage, to be fair to them, were saying we—we’re on cease fire, we don’t want to be involved in this, we see our function and role in communities now as something very different, and we want to work with you to make sure that that system of summary justice disappears, so I have to give credit where credit is due. And I know some people on the outside don’t like to hear this but folks, we are not working in a black and white world, we are working in a world with lots of shades of grey and government has done this for years, they’ve navigated their way and used diplomacy through all of these shades of grey, communities are still in the shades of grey, communities are still living with poverty, they’re still living with social disadvantage, they’re still living with low levels of education attainment, and here is my cry to the government, if you want to do peace building and reconciliation the way it needs to be done, it’s not just about getting rid of paramilitaries, of course that needs to happen, but it’s about addressing all of the issues with systemic and structural disadvantage, and real change is not going to happen unless we do it from the bottom up and we address poverty, in the twenty three years since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, levels of poverty in working class communities have not improved. What message are we sending? So to cry from the rooftops, what are you communities doing about violence hey-ho that’s easy, we’re doing a lot about violence, we’re changing violence day in and day out,  by helping to get rid of the system of summary justice, by challenging the paramilitary structures, by bring people who are in armed organisations into community roles, we’re doing all of that. What’re you doing about poverty?

Jude: And I do want to hear more on those issues going in Loyalism at the minute but final final question on this point, is there any danger in what you’re doing in bringing the young people through the restorative justice programme, then that the focus is on them rather than actually the wrongdoing of the paramilitary leaders in that in that situation?

Debbie: Well if you look at the whole restorative process, it’s victim centred. So the focus isn’t just on the young person, the victim is also on the people they have hurt. So first and foremost they are never going to get a sense that they’re carrying the whole can for this, you know, because we also say to the young person and we say to communities, so it’s not just about paramilitaries for me, Jude, we say to communities, we knit this young person. We made them who they are. We grew them up in a culture of violence because we still have deeply embedded cultures of violence, we grew them in this culture of violence and then when they act out, we punish them. That is so wrong, it’s about challenging communities, yeah, because can I just name this and put it on the record, there are loads of people still within our communities that support that summary—system of summary justice. Because it’s what we know. So it’s not just armed organisations, its ordinary people that support that system. So we need to change the whole system, and we always always are challenging every day that deeply embedded culture of violence. And we always are saying to armed organisations, you can’t use violence, non-violence is the way forward, but again it’s back to you can’t change one system and then expect it to transform communities, we need to be really really mindful and really deliberate and diligent and robust about a process of reconciliation, that changes all systemic and all structural wrongs within society.

Jude: Loyalism is very much in the spotlight at the moment and has been for some time now, how would you articulate the pain that people are experiencing in those communities at the moment?

Debbie: My analysis of this is that Loyalism suffered a lot during the conflict and during the Troubles. Did Loyalism inflict a lot of pain as well? We did, yeah, but we’re not saying that we didn’t. I mean one of the UVF, in their statement of intent, they talked about true and abject remorse, and they were one of the few organisations to do that. So I think Loyalism has sent out a message, we’re wrong for the hurt and harm that we’ve caused but also in terms of the peace building process, and the journey of reconciliation, I think they have been left behind. And I think they have been left behind for a number of reasons, they’ve been left behind number one, because I think Loyalism is joined together with middle unionism, and that hasn’t necessarily helped working class Loyalist communities, because they’ve a whole different set of needs and wants and desires, yeah, I think also in the desire to ensure that Republicanism and Sinn Fein were brought on with the peace process, I think Loyalism was neglected.

Jude: So how can that be remedied then at this point?

Debbie: Well it can’t be remedied by the introduction of a protocol that wasn’t negotiated, people didn’t have a voice in it and actually makes people culturally and politically feel isolated from their very Unionist and constitutional roots. It can’t be remedied through the introduction of things like that, and it can’t be remedied through a system of two tier policing. The chief constable in the senior team have sent out a message that they want to get—they want to do better around this, and we need more than words. We need systems and structures within policing to change and begin to engage Loyalism at a very different level and listen to their voice. And I think, Jude, people may not agree with me, but I truly believe when it comes to Loyalism there’s some systemic and adherent bias built in that people aren’t even aware of.  People aren’t even aware of the bias that they feel when they begin to talk about bonfires and parading. So how can we address it? We can’t address it with sticking plasters, we’ve learned that over the years, so my call to Middle unionism, to our political parties, my call to policing and also my call to the Nationalist parties is, if you’re truly truly deliberate and serious about reconciliation, let’s get on the same track around language. Because if you on the one hand say that you’re committed to building up loyalism and you want to bring them along, and then on the other hand go publicly and critique them, or critique some of their systems like parading and not try and understand it, you’re sending out mixed messages and you’re being disingenuous. So true reconciliation means we all need to change. Loyalism needs to change the lens in which it sees the world and some of its red lines, Nationalism also needs to change some of its red lines because compromise will never take place unless we all give. 

Jude: Isn’t there a problem, Debbie, behind voice and who to listen to within Loyalism which for those who want to engage can see a confusing picture then?

Debbie: I’m not sure what you mean by that, Jude, because for me looking now at Loyalism, the people that didn’t have a voice, some of us have worked really, really hard to make sure they do have a voice and I think they do have a voice now. So I think groups like Let’s Talk Loyalism the LCC and others, are being given a voice and a platform. What I think is the key to it is they’re not just given that voice at certain times of the year, but they’re seen as the key people to talk to year in and year out. So I think where the media and others have got it wrong is that they’ve gone in this as a peace meal approach, so the Irish government, the British government, the Northern Ireland office, our own Executive, the Media, all need to understand that there are people in Loyalism that need to be heard all of the time. Not just at certain times of the year but I, personally I think those barriers are being gunned to be broken down and I think people like you and others have worked hard as part of that to say that we want to bring in voices from the cold into the mainstream, here’s what happens when you bring people into the mainstream, they’re mainstreamed. Don’t see that as a bad thing, we should use that to our advantage, so you’re in the mainstream, but you still can articulate the marginalised voices. So the key to being a part of the mainstream is still staying connected with your grassroots and I think that’s where middle unionism has got it wrong, they became disconnected from the grassroots and from Loyalism, the key is always be present on the ground. 

Jude: We are coming into land but just as a point of interest, the justice and community sphere can be very heavy with male voices, so how do you experience it as a female leader moving between those roles, vice chair policing board and with Alternatives as well, what’s that like?

Debbie: To be honest Jude, I mean you’re right, the justice and the community sector can be very male dominated, I have rarely if ever felt disrespected as a woman doing this role within working class communities. So for people who say, these communities are rough, they’re not PC, I have not experienced any of that. I have always been treated very, very respectfully. Partly that’s because maybe I’m quite tenacious, my dad used to say I was a wee bulldog, I know what I want and I’ve learned the skills to get that, through being gently challenging. But I’ve also been very aware of being a female in these worlds, and so I have been very deliberate about open doors for females, and I’ll continue to do that. So probably half of the staff team within Alternatives are female if not more. If you’re true to justice, and if you’re true to peace building, you have to be true about seeing it through the lens of gender. Within mainstream structures, like the policing board, I was very, very proud that Ann Connelly and myself were the first two female chair and vice chairs of the policing board ever. Now so we broke through that glass ceiling while we were on our tenure on the policing board, so I think we’re in a changing world, I’m not naïve enough to think that there isn’t systemic and structural bias within that world, and sometimes we don’t even see it, feel it, it’s there and it hits us before we even realise. But we all collectively, and the men as well, we all need to work together to address all of those biases because justice isn’t just about the absence of violence, justice is about the presence of peace and true peace means that we’re all working together and for society of equals, where we all have a voice, and where we all have equal access to wherever we need and want to go. 

Jude: Final question then Debbie, you talked at the start about home being a place of peace and purpose for you, in the work that you do and to make that society that you talk about there where everyone’s voices are equal, what needs to—what needs to happen at this point to make this society move closer to that vision? 

Debbie: Jude, I think for me the key to that is addressing the bread and butter issues within working class communities. You cannot have an equal society with partnership of equals if people don’t have access. And if you’ve no job, no money, if you’re struggling to put food on the table, and if you’re struggling to navigate your way through the education system, that’s not true peace, that’s not what justice looks like. We have a window of opportunity in Northern Ireland. The Good Friday Agreement has given us a window of opportunity to do things very, very differently, and coming out of a contested society, why would we not aim high? For me, we need to be addressing those inherent discrimination like, I keep going over it, poverty. Unemployment. Education Attainment. And unless they’re addressed, so the green and orange issues, I know they’re important, I know they are, but if you can’t put bread on the table, what does life look and feel like for you? And actually, unless you can put bread on the table, and your identity is all you have, your identity and your flag takes on an increasing significance. So I think the way you can ensure that we can all move forward, in a more peaceful society, is to address the key areas of disadvantage. And we haven’t done that. We’ve tried to address the legacy issues, haven’t done it well. We’ve tried to address the green and orange issues, some of them we’ve done okay, some of them we haven’t. Do you know what we haven’t paid attention to? Bread and butter issues. And we have built on our economy, our city centres and our town centres are booming, our working class communities aren’t booming. We need to put focus into that. 

Jude: Debbie, thank you so much for your time, for your conviction, your passion and your faith as well. I really really appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us this morning, thank you. 

Debbie: Jude, can I just say thank you for that opportunity, you never know how this is going to sound but I appreciate the time and space to be able to tell my story, to be taken back right to when I grew up in Tobormore to right now, it’s not often as a community worker you get the opportunity to do that and the reflection is good, it’s good for me too, and so thank you for the opportunity and I wish you all the best in this short window you have.