With our guest Natalie Stone, we explore the deep roots of Sicilians and Italian Americans in the area , what it means to be a piney, and the cultural traditions that bind us all together.. The Pine Barrens complex web of culture, food, politics and history make the place of emblematic of America's cultural saga as the past mingles with the voices of today.
With our guest Natalie Stone, we explore the deep roots of Sicilians and Italian Americans in the area , what it means to be a piney, and the cultural traditions that bind us all together.. The Pine Barrens complex web of culture, food, politics and history make the place of emblematic of America's cultural saga as the past mingles with the voices of today.
So, natalie, thanks for joining us today, me today, thanks for joining today on the Pine Barrens podcast, and you know I really wanted to talk to you because one topic that I really like to explore is this concept of the ethnic archipelago, this concept of the of the ethnic archipelago, and you know what, basically, what that means is, in the Pine Barrens we have all these little pockets that have different cultures, different histories, and they're all part of the same web, the same fabric, and so so I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm. I cross between two different you know parts of that web, and one of the strongest is the Sicilian American community, the Italian American community within the Pine Barrens, and I know that's something that might resonate with you too a little bit, and I just wanted to get into it with you. So, what brought you and your family out here to South Jersey, to the Pine Barrens, philadelphia?
Speaker 2:Well, my father was born in Sicily. All of my grandparents were born in Sicily. So they came over off the boat when my father was seven and they settled in Glassboro. And on my mother's side also, you know, her parents were born in Sicily. They settled in South Philly but then they eventually made their way to New Jersey. So my father was born in Sicily. They settled in South Philly but then they eventually made their way to New Jersey. So my father was born in Sicily, came to Glassboro and then in 1984, moved us all to Medford, which is in the Pine Barrens, and then I spent about 10 years in Vincentown, which is in the Pine Barrens. I've lived in Tabernacle for four years, pine Barrens and Medford Lakes for 11 years in the Pine Barrens. So I've been here since I since 1984, when I was about 13.
Speaker 1:That's yeah, that's, that's great. And I know you had recorded a little family history, little family documentary about some of that transition. And you know one, one of the stories and I was I was just watching it and one of the stories that I thought was amazing. You know, to your father and his brother, they're coming over in the boat and and their and their mom says to the older one, your uncle, watch your little brother so he doesn't crawl off the boat. And I just I just thought that was just amazing. You know the, the, you know the, the, uh, the resoluteness of these people to cross the ocean under. You know it wasn't, you know it wasn't, uh, it wasn't like today. You know you're doing that ocean crossing. It was a major, it was a big deal. You're going someplace totally new, totally unfamiliar, and to start a new life, yeah, and then they quarantine them.
Speaker 2:They check them over, quarantine them, they check them over. It's just like you see in the movies. You know, my dad remembers it so vividly. That's why I love that documentary. And I'm not a filmmaker. I mean I have, uh, you know, acting as more of a hobby. I never claimed to be meryl streep or anything like that, but I do enjoy it and I had some filmmaker friends.
Speaker 2:I'm like I want to get my dad and my uncle on camera to tell their immigration story because there's so many, there's so much news, as you know, about immigrants and coming here legally and everything like that. So I thought let me tell a positive spin on how people you know, like me, like my ancestors, I should say uh, came to our country and it's incredible what you could find on ancestrycom too. So I actually have copies of the manifest from the boats with my grandmom's signature and my you know, my grandparents on my mother's side signatures when they were on the um, on the ships that came over, and I think if the ship was a Polish ship, like Sobieski or something like that. So there's like all the information is there. It's wild.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just. It's just so fascinating digging into that history and just you know, of how everyone got where they are and how it all developed over time.
Speaker 2:So I don't know if you watched the whole thing I know it's over an hour, but when you do you'll see a story where you can see my father has such a different experience than my uncle Larry in coming here.
Speaker 2:Larry never wanted to go back to Sicily my dad's been back there like nine times so because he was little and it was like an adventure Whereas Uncle Larry saw the German soldiers kill and execute Sicilian soldiers outside of his window. So he has bad memories of that. Whereas my father's like you know, that's the homeland and I want to, you know, I want to go back there and remembers hiding in a a tree, in a hollow tree, um, from the soldiers during the war and that's one of his earliest memories and, just you know, eating bananas when he came to america and like, why are they feeding me grass? When my one of the one of the one of the relatives that was in America first gave them, gave them spinach to eat. When they, when they came over on the boat, they're like why are they feeding us grass? You know, pop. So the different paradigms are pretty interesting.
Speaker 1:You know, and that's, I think, that informs the culture so much, that you know that love of food, that love of the land, taking care of the land, the farming practices, because you know, at least here in South Jersey, a lot of the labor on the farms 100 years ago, 50 years, 70 years ago it's Italian, italian labor years ago, 50 years, 70 years ago.
Speaker 2:It's Italian, italian labor, the names of the places and the farms and the farm markets. You have Conti's, you have Ferusto's, you have Domitia, you have, you know, mazza, you have, you know, you're in Hamilton, you drive by, it's all Italian.
Speaker 1:So.
Speaker 1:So they worked the farms and then they bought the farm in a good way, they own the farms and you know that love for the land, that caring for the land, it's all informed by that culture.
Speaker 1:You know not having those, you know those family stories of not having anything, not having food, not you know being really, you know, stretched thin, and you know I think that just informs a certain respect for the land, for the landscape, and you know I really appreciate that and you know it's something we have in abundance here in South Jersey is we have farmland, we have forest, we have these natural resources that you know, if you don't have them and times get hard, well that's a totally different situation than when you do have them and them. You know one of the things my grandfather who, who was 100 sicilian, told you know, told me, you know, in the great depression. You know if you're in town you're kind of in trouble, but they had the farm, they had something they could fall back on. You know, in those, in those hard times, and I just think that you know that just garners a certain respect for the land and the landscape and conservation in general, and I know you're.
Speaker 2:You could see my dad's yard in Mexico. It's like something out of Portofino, it's beautiful, he is such a green thumb. And I remember my grandfather in Glassboro having his, you know, small property but the garden was everything, and sitting back there with a salt shaker and eating the tomatoes right, you know, sitting on the ground as a little girl just eating tomatoes off the vine, and my grandfather that we lived with. So we had a typical Italian household growing up in Medford where there was the downstairs kitchen and the upstairs kitchen and my grandfather would pick dandelions Like what do you like? They're weeds and he's making a dandelion salad out of it and, you know, making wine in the downstairs kitchen.
Speaker 2:And it was I learned how to cook from my grandmother who could make a magnificent meal out of seemingly nothing, um, and she was the inspiration for me going to culinary school and being in the hotel business and that uh kind of chef career I had for a while. But and then the love of gardening as a whole. Other twist of events in my life I had a black thumb and now I can have a produce stand.
Speaker 1:That's great. So so you've moved. You've moved actually deeper into the Pine Barrens. You're you're in Tabernacle now and you, you ran and you were elected for for council. Could you tell me a little bit about why you felt it was important to you know run for elected office and, and you know, try to you know work for your community?
Speaker 2:So living, I mean living in Medford. I've been a member of my parish and community again for the better part of 40 years and I've always volunteered and, you know, had my kids volunteer and been involved in the community. And I'm older now, I have six grandchildren. I'm in a different place in my life where I felt like I could contribute to. I was asked when I was in my 20s to run for freeholder when I lived in Vincent Town. But I was a kid, I was like 24 years old, what did I know? Nothing. So I never did it.
Speaker 2:I was asked to run in Medford, I was asked to run in Medford Lakes and I'm like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want any part of that. But now that I'm in a different stage in my life, I wanted to get involved. I've always been involved with fundraisers and going and supporting, you know the, the politicians that I, uh, that I that I'm aligned with, and I wanted to get involved in that on a grander scale in the, in my final home that I live in, which I think is my, is my final home. But, um, you know, you never know, when you get older we might go South or something, but right now Jersey is, and always will be my home.
Speaker 1:And that's the reason and that's the reason.
Speaker 1:Um, so so you and you, you're not alone. So so you had sent me a link article earlier from from the history of Garfield DeMarco, the Franklin Parker preserve, demarco cranberry box. And for those of of those listening who aren't aware, so Garfield DeMarco was a long time Republican party boss in South Jersey, burlington County, and he was actually one of the first people to both promote but it's a complicated story about Pinelands the preservation of the Pine Barrens. So they actually had something called the Pinelands Environmental Council in the 70s and Garfield DeMarco was the chair of that and he owned the third largest cranberry farm in, I think, america, if not the world at that time. And so today that's the 13,000 acre Franklin Parker Preserve. But for many, many decades his family owned it as the DeMarco Cranberry Bogs. So he was part of that effort, sometimes in opposition, but he did support forever preserving the core of the Pinelands, the Pine Barrens, chatsworth Tabernacle, chemung, washington Township, parts of Mullica Township, parts of Hamilton, and he lived in Hamilton and would commute to the farm. So he had a very complicated life and people can look that up.
Speaker 1:But towards the end of his life he wanted to sell his farm for conservation so that 13,000 acres, it wouldn't be turned into strip malls and you know retirement condos. You know he had a really beautiful property and now you know he was able to work out a deal with the New Jersey Conservation Foundation and so they managed that as the Franklin Parker Preserve so everybody can go there. There is still. There are some plaques dedicated to him. And one lesser known story about him is he had a monument placed out in the middle of Wharton State Forest dedicated to the't. He didn't ask the state of New Jersey, he didn't ask the park service, he just went out there and placed this giant rock as a monument to the, to the Allaway family, way out, way out in the woods. And that's just something.
Speaker 2:Y'all have to show me that but you know I, you know I need an escort. I think I told you the time I got lost back there. I don't want that to happen again.
Speaker 1:I don't want that to happen again. Yeah, sometimes you need somebody to show you the way in, and then you know, once you're there, you kind of start figuring it out for yourself too. But yeah, just so much, so much amazing history, and you know what a heritage we have as Sicilian Americans in the Pine Barrens in South Jersey. Right, you don't just say Italian when you're Sicilian?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a little different.
Speaker 1:Right, you don't just say Italian when you're Sicilian. Yeah, it's a little different. So you know we, you know there's some discussion over this term piny, who gets to be a piny, what's a piny? And I think you know sometimes that that term gets kind of pigeonholed in a certain way and I have much more of an expansive view of it coming from I have, you know, part of my family has hundreds of years here, you know, going, going, going, way back, you know, you know, in Atlanta County, in Ocean County, and then the other half, half of my family came here more recently as as immigrants, sicilian immigrants. So I have a bit more of an expansive view of that term and I think more of an inclusive view and I think that you know we really need to consider who gets to be in the in-group and have it be a bit more expansive than you know, even coming to you, you know absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's funny and that's where that term ethnic archipelago really comes into play, because if you went 10 miles as a crow flies, you'd be in Hampton, which is the most Italian American place in New Jersey, the most I know my girlfriend Gabby is the cannoli girl.
Speaker 2:You know she's Italian, as Italian can be. You know selling lots of cannoli and maratosi and everything else.
Speaker 1:So would you encourage other people to get into elected office, to get in the community service. You know what would be your message to people who might be interested in getting more involved, but maybe, like you, feel a little bit more.
Speaker 2:You know on the outside, is it worth jumping in? Is it, is it worth getting more involved in different aspects of uh jason? You know that's like hard this week uh, yeah, let's uh maybe it's hard this week, but generally as yeah you know I got involved with all pure intentions and no controversy and no major hot button issues. You, you, you, you, you. You have to pay attention to what's going on because other people are going to be making decisions for you that you may not like and agree with.
Speaker 1:So so, um, if you look outside the Pinelands because we're, you know, we're in a place that has actually a fair, a fair amount of protection as far as urban sprawl, things like that Um, so, if you look outside the Pine Barrens, you go up 206 and you're seeing warehouse after warehouse after warehouse. What are your thoughts on that kind of development happening just outside, essentially right outside of our borders?
Speaker 2:Oh, I think, completely changing the landscape of the beauty that you would see driving up and seeing the woods and such. And you can't just say to people well, you buy the land. Not everybody has the money. The way that these investors do to scoop up the land. Preservation is absolutely important, or that's what you're going to be looking at. It's sad.
Speaker 1:Would you favor maintaining Pinelands protections as they are the?
Speaker 2:Pinelands Commission protecting that Not all of these towns fall under their purview, where that you would have to get permission to knock that down and put up a warehouse. So we're lucky that we have that. You know, I don't think I mean. I pray to God. Cal Point, Medford is always going to be Cal Point.
Speaker 1:Yep, yep, and that wasn't guaranteed. You know when Garfield DeMarco was debating with Brendan Byrne, you know it just wasn't. It wasn't guaranteed. And even after the Pinelands Act was passed in 79, there were efforts to overturn that. So one story that Governor Keene has talked about is once he got elected it was 1984, he got elected Republican governor 1984. They said, you know, some people came to him and said Burns out, it's time to overturn this Pinelands thing. And he said not going to happen. He supported it because what would we have today? We'd have warehouses, we'd have strip malls. You know retirement condos from from here to here to Cape May. Basically Tabernacle to Cape May would be nothing. But you know strip malls and retirement condos, basically.
Speaker 2:Somebody from going into business or building something on the land that they purchased. But it's good to have some control so that you keep the beauty of of what we're surrounded by. I mean, nature is important. I think if more people spent time in nature they would be happier. I think it would change their personality and they would have those positive ions and negative ions in the air and I don't know what I'm talking about. It sounds very hippy dippy but I'm like far from a tree hugger, but I do go on retreats and stuff and we hug trees and I'm touching moss and looking at the little salamanders and I love it and I'm out there in my garden. It is Zen and you are like one with God when you are in nature and when you have God. That makes you nicer.
Speaker 1:I think you're 100% right and you know there's a lot of studies that back that up. More time in green space, better mental health, better physical health. You get an exercise, you're getting fresh air, you're getting a bit more of an expansive view, because if you're just in a little cloistered little bubble it just doesn't, it's just not that healthy. So you get out into the open space.
Speaker 2:You know, inside they lost their minds. It was very unhealthy. You know, inside they lost their minds. It was very unhealthy. You know you have to get out, you have to be with people, you have to be with nature. I mean, go plant some stuff. So I was, you know, touched a little bit about my garden. I did have a black thumb, jason.
Speaker 2:I couldn't keep a house plant alive my entire adult life. Then my son passed, unfortunately. So he was a soldier, 24 years old, and you know some people sent plants instead of flowers and, come hell or high water, I was keeping those funeral plants alive and I did, and so from that I planted some herbs out back on the porch and then that I'm like, okay, these are alive, I could do this. Then I got some more houseplants. Now it looks like a jungle in my living room and my husband built me this humongous garden back there and when I tell you the stuff that I can't believe I'm doing it, it's like a miracle that I could even do this. I could not keep a plant alive. Now I'm growing 50 different things and my neighbors don't need produce from, you know, spring to October. So and I love it back there. We bought this house because you know you're not supposed to make a major decision within a year of something of trauma, something that traumatic and we just drove by.
Speaker 2:We saw the sign. You know we went in the model home. I had my checkbook on me. I bought this house with like a thousand dollar deposit that day and here we are and it's the best decision I could have made. I love Tabernacle. It is beautiful. I love to look in my backyard at those trees and I'm, you know, I wander back there and I'm looking at all the funky, different mushrooms and summer metallic and there's purple and I'm like Whoa. And then I start wandering to my neighbor's woods and she's like, she's like mommy, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a person back in the woods and they're like, oh, that's just Natalie looking at mushrooms. I'm like wandering in my neighbor's yards. They're just so used to it. Now.
Speaker 1:Well, I got to say we owe you a tremendous debt because your family has put everything on the line, it sounds like, and sacrificed. Your son served in the armed forces.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was a Calvary scout, lots of medals and awards and it's a shame. And he got out of there and he succumbed to you know using you know substance abuse and unfortunately he did a line of cocaine with fentanyl in it and it killed him. It's, you know, hopefully instantly, but it's hard, yeah, but it's what you know, hopefully instantly, but it's hard, yeah, but it's what brought me.
Speaker 2:It's what brought me deeper into the woods and I still say to this day, anthony that's my husband like get me deeper in the woods. You can't get me deep enough yet. So I get. I get what you're trying to do, jason. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think a lot, of, a lot of people have similar experiences, that that lead them in similar directions, and so I just want to say I appreciate, I appreciate that and you know, we all you know, I think we all you know, care deeply for, for people that have sacrificed so much.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I just wanted to let that be be known I appreciate he may not have died in battle, but he did. He did die in battle because you come out of there and with scars that you try to numb, in the end you know it sucks. So very talented person, tall, dark, handsome, musician, writer, athletic could play any instrument known to man. Funny sucks. So thank you All right, change the subject now. I'll be stuck in my thumb in a corner outside in the woods. If you don't.
Speaker 1:So in the pines, I know you're getting to learn the place. You're getting to learn the place more and more. Um, is there any particular place that you've been to that you um, that you think other people just need to go see? You know, if, if, if, uh, if you were to recommend one place to people that you know, you should really check this out and just get a taste.
Speaker 2:You know, know, if you haven't, if people are just unfamiliar, just a taste of all that I found, um and again, it was after nick passed there's a zen, there's a zen monastery in chemung, and to take a walk back there it's gorgeous. I highly recommend going back there. You're like, whoa, I can't believe this is back here. It's like beautiful gardens and rocks and it's so peaceful and, um, it's, it's pretty. It's a pretty uh, you know, hidden gem isn't, isn't that incredible?
Speaker 1:you know, you find these little secret, these little secrets, you know I think it's brutus.
Speaker 2:I don't even know if it's brutus, but yeah, there's a. Yeah, it's pretty wild so.
Speaker 1:So you know, everybody I think everybody has a spot like that that they come across and they're just like I can't believe that this is here. You know, this is just something that you'd never expect, and yet there, there it is.
Speaker 2:My girlfriend. She's my girlfriend, terry. She's from Medford Lake, she's also from this city and, like an import right To Medford Lakes, she's like come on, I, I'm gonna take you to this place, we're gonna watch, you know, deer chomp on some stuff and it's gonna be cool. That's how I found it. So you know, we may not be from here by birth, but we certainly have immersed ourselves in the, in the beauty of it, know that it's there and is going to provide some great mental health benefits yeah, and and, of course, like you said it, like you said, it's always more complicated Like your family came to Glassboro.
Speaker 1:Glassboro, we have glass in the primaries because we have the sand. The sand forms the ecology, the geology. Yeah, and you know, of course, going into Medford and the blueberries, the cranberries, the Italians who worked, you know, of course, going into Medford and the blueberries, the cranberries, the Italians who worked, the blueberry, the cranberry farms. So you know, we have all these connections that they build, they last, and it's really just a special thing. So, one thing you know we could do in the future if you're interested, we go down to Hamilton, do some interviews and, you know, talk to people about you know why they stayed, because you stayed, because their families came here, but there was nothing forcing them to stay here.
Speaker 2:I'd be happy to. Yeah, that sounds like fun. We can stop and get a cannoli.
Speaker 1:That's a plan, that's a plan.
Speaker 2:Oh, and the brick oven pizza at the Brothers. What is it called down in Hamilton?
Speaker 1:Yeah, rico Brothers, rico Brothers yep, oh, I, it called down in Hamilton. Yeah, rico Brothers, rico Brothers, yep. I love that pizza, Yep yep, some great, some great pizza shops in Hamilton and all the, even the, you know?
Speaker 2:I know we're talking about Sicilians, but just the Mexican restaurants down there are great too.
Speaker 1:It would be a little eat-fest, jason, I think we'd be spending more time eating. Well, I'm for it. That we'd be spending more time eating. Well, I'm for it, but that's what we do it's who we are yeah, so I, I, uh. You know I thank you for joining on the podcast today. You know you have such an interesting uh perspective and uh I appreciate you sharing it.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's my pleasure. Thanks for asking me to do it yeah, I wish.
Speaker 1:I wish you luck in tabernacle and I can only assume you have a bright future in South Jersey. And yeah, thanks for joining Straight down through the spot Singing Lord. It sure is good to be back home.