Collective Intelligence: Marketing Insights & Ideas to Help Brands Thrive

CI Conversations: Three DE&I-Friendly Programs to Offset Hiring Imbalances

August 04, 2023 Interpublic Group of Companies (IPG) Season 2 Episode 7
Collective Intelligence: Marketing Insights & Ideas to Help Brands Thrive
CI Conversations: Three DE&I-Friendly Programs to Offset Hiring Imbalances
Show Notes Transcript

Description: Julie Batliner, president of Carmichael Lynch and Carmichael Lynch Relate, Erica Samadani, executive director of PR for MullenLowe PR and cofounder of Momternships and Val DiFebo, CEO of Deutsch, New York join CI Conversations host Jennifer Sain to discuss three recruitment programs created to facilitate DE&I-friendly hiring in the advertising industry. 

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[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to the Collective Intelligence Podcast from IPG. We deliver marketing insights that help modern brands thrive. In this episode, you'll hear about the latest perspectives featured at Listen then log on to find new opportunities for your brand to stand out. 

[00:00:21] Jen Sain (Host): Hello and welcome to the Collective Intelligence Podcast. I'm your host, Jen Sain, and today we will be talking about the current state of recruitment and the advertising industry with the focus on diverse hiring practices, which have become even more imperative than when we even planning this discussion. Now, following the Supreme Court decision to end affirmative action, we'll also dive into how internships play a huge role in all of this, and we'll also highlight some of the innovative internship programs developed by Deutsch, New York, Mullen Lowe and Carmichael Lynch. So without further ado, I would love it if our stellar lineup of guests could please introduce themselves. Julie, why don't you start?

 [00:01:09] Julie B: Hi there, I'm Julie Batliner, president of Carmichael Lynch and Carmichael Lynch relate out of Minneapolis.

[00:01:15] Erica S: And I'm Erica Samadani, executive director of PR for Mullen Lowe PR on a cofounder of our program, called Momternships.

[00:01:27] Val D: Hi, I'm Val Defibo and I'm the CEO at Deutsch in New York.And I'm happy to be here today.

 [00:01:30] Jen Sain (Host): Excellent. I'm happy that all of you are here today. I think this is going to be a great conversation. So in my opening remarks, I had mentioned of course, the recent Supreme Court decision, but I'd like to actually go back a few seismic shifts in our culture to kind of talk about how that has had an impact on recruitment and internships and the workforce. And that is of course COVID, and of course, the murder of George Floyd. And how that kind of had a huge impact in terms of this big shift in social equity. So I would love it if one of you could just, kind of comment on that and see you know how each of those milestone moments in our culture kind of affected the recruitment in our industry.

 [00:02:13] Julie B: I can jump in. This is Julie Batliner at Carmichael Lynch and we were in the epicenter of where George Floyd was murdered here in Minneapolis. And so we had the convergence of COVID in changing the way we were working and communicating and living as well as as the tragedy of the murder of George Floyd. And so that was something that we knew we had to take action on and that's why we came together with some other firms to create a an externship that was a little bit different than what had existed out there. So a few of us with all of that happening in the world started getting together. A few leaders, actually competitive agencies here in the Twin Cities, including one of our IPG fellow agencies, Weber Shandwick. And we started talking about our various DI programs and our various work policies during COVID.

 [00:03:09] Julie B: And we all had similar things that we were doing and we said well, why are we doing these all separately? And we have a huge challenge ahead of us to overcome with the murder of George Floyd and COVID. And so we put together a task force to diversify the makeup of the communications and advertising industry to better represent the world and the messages we were putting into it. And then we said, well, what would this look like? And we started doing research and talking to students of color about why they don't use advertising or communications and and decided to create an externship called the BIPOC Career Explorer, where they could learn about all six of our firms and experience real life work and real life positions by joining this externship program. And we knew that they were going through a lot at that time and trying to go to school during COVID and work. And so we decided to pay them to be part of the externship program.

 Julie B: So we pay them $1000 stipend and let them come in and experience all six firms through this program throughout the school year and learn about all the different positions that might be of interest to them as they look to what they wanna do when they graduate. So again, setting competitive aside for the greater good and it's been great in terms of results. We have a couple of graduates from the externship program that work at Carmichael Lynch, some that work at Weber and the other firms that are part of this program and others that ended up at Nike or other places that we just feel great that we're helping. Overall, the communications and advertising industry diversify.

 [00:04:59] Jen Sain (Host): Thank you so much for that. Yeah, Erica, Oval, if you want to jump in to just kind of talk about how you perceived those shifts after of course, COVID and George Floyd and you know both kind of in the macro and then also how it affected your in agency culture and of course your internship programs.

[00:05:14] Erica S: Hmm. Absolutely. Yeah. And Julie, you know, congratulations on your program. That's amazing. So our program was a direct result of the pandemic and the impact that it had on women and essentially mothers who unequivocally bore the brunt of the pandemic and a million plus women left the workforce during the pandemic, largely due to the fact that there just wasn't readily available childcare, right. And if we think back to those dark days of the pandemic, when we're all either trying to do zoom school and you know your partner might be trying to zoom on their on their call, if we're so privileged to even be at home, right where we didn't have to go outside the home. But typically one person in a parental arrangement had to stay home, and that was women.

 Largely, the majority of the time, and so then kind of Fast forward looking at 2022 where we were and those jobs weren't coming back, they weren't coming back to women. So when we looked at the data and we saw that women, essentially their participation in the workforce was the lowest it had been since the 80s, it was alarming to us. Yeah. And I see everyone's eyebrows raised as well, because when you hear that stat, it hits you in the gut and you think how much could this potentially put us back? Right. And how many steps and gains we've made in the workforce and how this could put us back? So the momternships was our reaction to that. It was a way of saying, you know, women are being impacted right now, but also historically and held back within the workforce. And this was a statement to our industry and to the workforce at large that we cannot leave working women mothers behind because they have something very valuable to offer the workforce and we need it.

 [00:07:08] Val D: Erica and Julie, your programs are amazing and just the fact we have so many women here at Deutsch that I know exactly what you're talking about. Erica, so many people were burdened with having to manage childcare in their homes while they were also trying to do their jobs during the pandemic. And so it Deutsch, New York, we actually had two outcomes from these two separate events. And so I guess I can start with the with the murder of George Floyd, in addition to doing some open conversations around how people felt about all of this aggression and how that manifested itself, having not been in the epicenter of of where all of this happened was still very, very, very real.  And so we put together a little task force and one of the things that that they recommended was to put together a an internship for people who wouldn't necessarily get an opportunity to be in an agency like this because they didn't have the proper access to the programs, like SVA or or schools like that. Right. And so and so I actually knew a professor at SVA from from my high school days. And we got in touch with her and we created an internship program where we pay for four years. So literally the four years that someone would go through the program for two different people and then we promised to keep them on as interns for four years here at Deutsch, New York, or help them get other internships.

 [00:09:00] Val D: And So what that guaranteed was that they would have their tuition money. And once once we picked them and they signed up, they knew they would never have to worry about that tuition money again. So it wasn't like one year and then where do you find the money year two and then that they would get hands on experience after that and that if they didn't get the hands on experience here or they wanted something else to add to their repertoire that we could hook them up either with another IPG agency or with the AEF or something else where they would be able to still get? That experience and and have a real internship. So that was the first program I think we are in our. Second year of having them here. As interns, they generally work all summer. They don't really work during the school year so that they can concentrate on their studies, which is fine. And they're doing really well. They're both obviously working the creative department and that's an area where people of color were particularly underrepresented.

 So we're excited about that program and we we want to continue doing that and umm and it actually one of the things that it's really done is it's also raised the profile of our industry in schools like that because among that population because you have to apply to get in. And so people learned more about Deutsch, learned more about the industry, and then got more interested in applied for regular internships and jobs here. So that's all been a positive impact and we're excited about that. But I think the bigger one is our creative and media camp.  We call it summer camp at Deutsch New York, and it started during COVID because we typically were able to take before COVID about 12 between 12 and 30 students a year to be in an internship program here.  And they shadowed people, and they did projects and and all of that. But with COVID we said how can we turn this from sort of a selective program to something more accessible to people and and I'll give my my folks at 100% credit. All I did was say yes, which is that big sign behind my head. I'd like to say yes, you see that anyway, so they came up with this program that was really amazing. It basically harnessed the talent we had in house from all the different departments. So we're fully integrated agency, so it was nice to be able to offer media data, analytics strategy, creative, all of that as part of this program. And so we get people to teach these modules and for one week, typically the first week of August, we accept applications from all over the place. We publicize it and we just take whoever wants to be in this program and we give them all the basics so that when they start to interview, they can say that they have working knowledge of the different departments and where they might be interested or where their skills might align with the requirements of a certain job. Or they say that they have experience because at the end of our program, at the end of five days, we actually have a hackathon and people are allowed to work together and do a project.

 [00:12:14] Val D: And so that enables people who are interviewing to go out and talk about literally working with people from other departments and have some experience because, you know, every time you go on a job interview, they say, what experience do you have and what you know, have you done this before? I'm sorry. Anyway, so it's a really exciting program and we've we've had people, we had 150 people the first year, 150 people the second year and this year I think we're up to about 140 people signed up. But sign ups aren't closed yet and the really nice thing is that we have people from Turkey, Greece, Vietnam, China, Bangladesh, all different places. Who are tuning in and learning about advertising and either getting jobs in their own venue and and we're helping the industry that way, right? Or they're they're not all getting jobs at Deutsch we've hired, I think, three or four of them out of the program, but they're getting jobs at other agencies and then they call us and they say I got a job at BBDO and I'm a writer. And it was because of blah blah blah. And it's so exciting because I feel like instead of just us looking for talent for our own agency, that we're giving people tools and accessibility to work in the industry. And so that's what we love about this program.  That's just a little bit about it and that's how it was influenced.

 [00:13:35] Jen Sain (Host): And in all of these program it, it truly is that innovation in terms of just you know thinking out of the box in terms of in terms of diversity including moms and. And one thing in particular that you just said, Val is the fact that it's a global. You know you have a global reach in this particular program and that kind of, you know, democratizes the opportunities and the availability. And I remember having a previous conversation with your colleagues and saying then that, you know, legacy folks and perhaps folks that have content contacts within the industry, you know, sometimes have a leg up and and in this you're kind of getting a broader pool of applications and you can actually widen that. One thing also that was interesting is that this summer CAMP took place online, and what I'm curious about is of course COVID, you know, necessitated the need to have online platforms and online communication. Do you see that as something that's going to stick around because you saw such a benefit from that? And I asked because, you know, it just in terms of, you know, workforce and workplace in general, we're seeing, you know, do we do hybrid do, does everyone come back to the office? So in terms of internship programs, either from the actual program or from the recruitment perspective, how do you see technology playing a role in that?

 [00:14:54] Julie B: It's interesting you bring it up because we're going into our third year of the BIPOC Career Explorer program and we had a big debate on should we bring students in for these? And one of the things that we talked a lot about and surveyed our students and prospective students about is what they wanted. And they really liked the accessibility of having virtual learning, and it also allowed us to have geographic diversity and have students from. HBCU's as well. And so the way the program works is it's nine months of learning every other Friday they meet with a different agency and they learn about everything from strategy to the creative process to influence our engagement, your name it. But they also get a mentor and we take a lot of time to match people at the different six different agencies that partner for this program with the student and things that they're interested in. And I think that also allows the virtual nature of it allows more communication with the mentor, more like I would say informal like, hey, can you just run through something with me because I'm about to have an interview for an internship and just more communication. So I think it's good we did offer them to come tour the agency so they could really see what the cultures like and see what it looks like to work at an agency but kept it hybrid in that way.

 [00:16:16] Erica S: Yeah, I I'll echo Julie as well. I think one of our takeaways and learnings from the MOMTERNSHIPS program is just the flexibility that online provides, right?  And when you're a mom, you particularly need that flexibility. But I will say that also offering the opportunity to come into the office was incredibly beneficial as well. You know, leave it to a mom to take a bull by the horns. We had moms knocking on our CEO's door saying I'd like to meet you and take you for coffee, you know? So I think that that ability to connect in person was beneficial to, but we did wanna open up the aperture of the program to at least have the opportunity for someone to be kind of fully remote, but still for those people that benefit from that in person connection, having that option was crucial.

 [00:17:15] Val D: Yeah, I would agree with Julie and with Erica that it's nice to have the hybrid option for us. The global nature of the of this program really necessitates that the bulk of it is online. But we offer people, the opportunity to come in and I think I do think that the flexibility is important and also it's reflective of kind of where we are as an industry that you can work from home and still be effective in the the earlier you learned that I think the better you perform. So so I you know. Yeah, it's the technology has been an amazing advantage for accessibility in our view.

 [00:17:57] Jen Sain (Host): I'm curious what were some of the biggest learnings that you got from the students or the the applicants would say that overtime I'm curious like what the learnings were from your pool of interns you know to label it simply good or bad, but what you really think were some amazing takeaways then to shape how you approach interns and recruitment or your workforce in general?

 [00:18:14] Erica S: I was gonna say one of our biggest takeaways from the momternship program was about the importance of sponsorship and networking very early on. So our program a 10 week internship for moms that not to clear up. It's not a return ship. Momternship is more about getting your swagger back and re entering the workforce. Professional workforce. So equipping you with, you know, on the job training and also access to mentorship and job shadowing, but not for those returning to advertising.  So it's not, you know, women that have had two decades of advertising experience, then you have to come back as an intern. So that's not the momternship program. It's really for women that, you know, maybe needed a refresher to come back into the workforce, needed a bit polishing of their skills, or they have been out of an industry for a while and they wanna try something new. They wanna reinvent themselves. So what we learned, even based on moms that had, you know, young kids to moms that were empty nesters, is that they wanted to start networking from day one. And we had a lot of our programming from a training perspective, like around resume building and had a networking at the end of the internship when they wanted it at the front being that they wanted to start meeting with different people in the agency with even clients. How do I start a conversation? How do I? What's my elevator pitch?

 [00:19:41] Erica S: So we learned that just earlier on focusing on kind of how to network and how to introduce yourself in a professional setting was really important. And the second piece about sponsorship. So we had a mentor assigned to each mom tern, but what we learned is that they were really looking more for ice sponsor versus a mentor and that they felt their manager gave them a little bit more of that traditional and mentor relationship they built with them. And the sponsor was like, who can you introduce me to? What conferences should I be going to? What books should I be reading. So this year we've incorporated a sponsorship element to the MOMTERNSHIP program?

 [00:20:26] Julie B: We are less similar learning at Carmichael Lynch on the BIPOC career Explorer. We came in strong and the first year our pilot year with case studies and all these things and we also did at the end a panel which was building your resume and how to interview or how how even to network or what your LinkedIn should look like. Should I be on LinkedIn? All of those things, and we move that to the very beginning as well. Erica, same thing. I think these students just really wanted to understand the basics, especially coming out of COVID and where they had been learning remotely and learning group skills. 
Again, I think the second thing that we learned and we we sort of knew, but I think we learned even more about was the challenges that some of our non traditional students have in terms of learning about our industry. And did they really just didn't understand all the different positions you can hold at it at an agency and what those might look like because they're really busy, their work, some of them are working and they're going to school and just explaining all of the different opportunities and starting from square one was really helpful and give it gave them a lot of confidence.

 [00:21:47] Val D: Yeah, I think our learnings were very similar to both to both of yours and I think umm, you know with without having the kinds of connections that a lot of students have when they get internships, the sort of what I'll call them the people who are now all of a sudden granted accessibility are learning a whole new thing. And so I'm spending the time with them so that they understand the differences is really important. I would also say that our current staff got a a huge learning about being mentors and also taking people under their wings, teaching them, particularly when it's hybrid for them to include, include these folks in meetings and conversations so that they are truly learning and recognizing the responsibility that they had to make this work in a hybrid environment was a big learning. You know, we we've never done that before. We've always had sort of shadows where one person follows one person all of a sudden you have 30 or 100 people you're talking to at a time, and you're responsible to answer questions many, many, many of them made themselves available after the session so that they could answer questions or give give these students advice.

And I think taking that responsibility on was a big learning, but also very rewarding for people. They felt really good about sort of cultivating the next group of folks who are interested in in the industry. So I think that's, you know those are a couple of other learning things that we got along the way.

 [00:23:26] Erica S: Hmm. I love that Val. That is such a good underscore of what I always say the MOMTERNSHIP program brings, which is a sense of not just an equitable, equitable workforce, but also an empathetic one. You know, we had managers managing Mom terms that had never managed a mom before, you know, they they weren't perhaps themselves moms, and they weren't in that live stage yet. Of course they worked with others within their kind of department, but I think managing a mom tern just not there was a level of empathy and understanding that was needed that really helped influence their management style moving forward. And that was really nice to see.

 [00:23:56] Jen Sain (Host): O looking toward the future, you know we were looking at these these major events in terms of COVID and the social unrest that came that summer. But now, looking at the Supreme Court decision, as I had mentioned earlier, I'm curious how you would see that either changing or enhancing or adding or detracting from your strategies, not just in terms of the internship programs that you've all talked about, but also just kind of in the industry in general, what do we need to do as advertisers to accelerate our commitment to having a diverse workforce?

 [00:24:34] Val D: What's that? That's Supreme Court that Supreme Court ruling definitely put some handcuffs on our ability to reach out to the to the kinds of people that we are hoping would learn about the industry from us and be interested to join right. And so and and obviously it's also happening with universities. And so they're not they're they won't be getting the same access there as well. So I think from our perspective, because our our signup sheet, I'll call it, we don't recruit. So I don't think for us it's the same. We don't recruit for this program, we publicize it, and we publicize it in all different places. The way we always have, and we take people who are serious about being part of it. So if they say, you know, if someone says I can only be there for a day because I have another job or because I have something else to do, we'll take them for a day. So we don't discriminate against people who have other things to do or they have jobs. And they can only come to a certain amount of sessions.

 So I think for us at least it won't change. I hope it won't change the profile of the group that we've had. It is very diverse and and it really has worked to the way we've been sort of advertising. It has really helped to keep it very, very yeah. I guess I would say diverse and so. So I don't think that will impact us. I think when you're talking about hiring practices, that's a completely different conversation that I think we all have to wrestle with how we are going to keep attracting the kinds of people who want to feel included in this industry and and part of that, you know, I always think goes back to culture and how you behave yourselves at work and whether or not you are an inclusive environment or you just talk about it. And and I think when you when you are. You have that reputation and people feel that way when they hear when they leave here or your places and they go out and tell the world that was a place. I loved working because people heard me and listen to me and saw me and I'm more empathetic to Eric's point, to my different situation. That speaks volumes versus, you know, telling a recruiter you're looking for marginalized folks to be introduced to your industry.

 [00:27:02] Erica S: Umm. Yeah, I'll say that. I mean, there's it's a disheartening many of the kind of recent legislations that governing bodies have have made. And I think that what we've seen is that it's on business to step up and lead with your values, right? So I think we need to continue doing what we believe is right and I think that for us with the momternship program, you know, specifically moms had historically and impacted in the workforce because so many of our industries just were not set up for caregivers. And that's across the board, right? But it predominantly balls on on women to do many of the the caregiving. So we knew that this program had impact and value outside of just the pandemic. You know, bright Horizons did a survey that talked about how, you know, 75% of folks in the workforce believe that women are penalized for having children. So it's something that society has created a hindrance, just like kind of, you know, similar to what we're talking about here. And so it's on business and leaders that lead with their values to continue to advocate for programs and continue to create equitable workforces.

 [00:28:22] Julie B: Yeah, echoing what Val and Erica both said and what we just used it as an opportunity to double down on our efforts and stand up to try to help be allies and. Work even harder.

 [00:28:37] Jen Sain (Host): Yeah, you know, absolutely. And before we wrap up, I kind of wanted to to look forward a little bit more, not necessarily looking at the. People who are participating in the programs and how you're reaching them, but also some of the some of the next kind of milestones coming down the pipe but not necessarily are horrible, but things like AI or the evolution of social media. You know, Slack comes to mind, but that's not new, but it just any any other sort of major, major shifts that you feel coming. I mean, again, I'm emphasizing AI because at the top of mind, but it doesn't have to be that. Do you see anything else having a major impact on your programs or just the industry in general?

 [00:29:17] Erica S: You know, I don't. I don't know necessarily. I think AI and and technology in itself. If you don't keep up with it, you're automatically out of date, you know, and I think that was a big learning curve for some of the moms, just depending on how long they had been out of the workforce and that there was a bit of a confidence gap to fill with technology. And so I see AI being a part of that. So it kind of incorporating, you know, an introduction, learning, umm, a ramp up to that is going to be important for us. Umm. But I would just say, you know, our overall our goal is to evolve and scale. You know, we've been speaking with many of the collective leaders here about either starting their own momternship programs or providing training and lunch and learn sessions to our mom turns. I think ultimately we want employers to start their own momternship programs. We have an employer toolkit that hopefully makes it easier for folks to do.

 You can download it from the website, but ultimately I think the more people that engage in programs like momternships and like all these amazing programs we're hearing here is that we're we're all banding together to create a more equitable and empathetic workforce. And ultimately, that's what this is all about.

[00:30:32] Val D: You don't, Jen. I it's so interesting because I'm not sure that the summer camp program at Deutsch New York is really on the surface will be impacted by something like AI, which is what everybody's talking about now, right? But I do think that diversity of thought and the way that you phrase the prompts for AI and chat GPT and all of these things really can get you to a lot of different thinking and different answers right away. And so I wonder if one of the things we should do in, in our programs is literally have a whole session on how do you prompt something, you know, prompt chatGPT, how can it help you in, in your job instead of looking at it as an enemy? And what does you know, how does AI impact some of the work that we do in other cases so that they're not afraid of these things, taking away their jobs? But they learn how to use the technology in a way that advances all of our our goals. You know, I I think about I would never want chatGPT to be writing scripts.

 Having said that, be really interesting to see if you put several prompts in what kind of thought starters you could have and throw them out to a whole group of people and see what comes back. And so it almost it. It can provide you with a step you didn't have before, but I wouldn't look at it as a replacement. So I just think it's interesting the way we look at the way we all look at this and think about how the tools will help us for our future.

 [00:32:18] Jen Sain (Host): Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting that you call it a tool. And I do think that's what's missing from a lot of the conversations around AI. I mean, just from, you know, anecdotally I have a a friend who works at a university and they've actually bought software to more intelligently use artificial intelligence in that it will generate resumes for the students. And then they'll take that resume and go back to her to then have that as a starting point and then to really hone it. Similarly, they have another program that helps kind of bounce back and forth. Typical interview questions and helps you know. Really formulate the the answer, but again not as a replacement for independent thought.

 It just kind of a a starting point. So I think that's, yeah, I think that's a really important distinction. Yeah. And I mean just before we wrap up, I just think you know kind of under the shadow of the, you know, the not so great things we talked about. I just, it just seems like there's a lot of hope there just in terms of who now you know can have access to, you know, a career and a passion that they'd they'd like to and and and additionally, the insert agency collaboration within Interpublic. And then outside, I mean that's healthy competition, it only benefits our industry in terms of creative creative output and fresh thinking. So yeah, I think despite everything it you know ending on this note, I think it's it's hopeful. So thank you.

 Thank you for being on this podcast and thank you for all you do for our industry and I'm going to say goodbye now unless anyone has anything else they'd really love to share before we sign off.

 [00:33:43] Julie B: I would love to share that if anybody knows a student of color that would be interested in applying to our program. so people can apply to the BIPOC Career Explorer program at BIPOC, and applications are open now for our next year's cohort.

 [00:33:54] Erica S: Yes, applications for the mentorship program are now live, so please go and check it out at That's and you know my favorite story from last year came from a mom that was actually in my sons first grade class. And I had received a text message from her that said, hey, you work at Mullen Lowe, right. And I said, yeah, sure do. What's up? She said. What do you know about this month and that program and how do I apply I of course shared the website and I asked her how did you hear about it? And she said, you know, I'm another mom on the playground, had read about it and add ad week and she passed it along to me. Thought it'd be something that I'd want to check out, and I literally basically started crying. I just. I felt like, wow, it's really working and that's what happens. You know when you put something good out into the world and you share it, even better things can happen. And and that's what we've seen with the MOMTERNSHIP program, especially when you tell moms, you know, we're going to talk about it. So all we had to do was really fan the flames. So momternship up org. Check it out.

 [00:35:07] Val D: That is a great story. I would just say if you're interested in the Deutsch Summer camp program, it starts on July 31st online, and if you follow us on Instagram, you'll see at Deutsch, underscore, New York. We you'll see a place where you can link in for for an application and we take anybody who's interested in learning about advertising. And it's only a week of your time, but it's intense. It's like boot camp, so we're super excited and I'm really thrilled to hear about all of these other programs that, that IPG is frankly inspiring and rewarding. That's it's. It's really a great thing to feel like you're part of a network that truly cares about this and with other women who are forging this ahead. So thank you everyone.

 [00:35:55] Jen Sain (Host): Well, great. Thank you all again and thank you to our listeners. I'm just a reminder this podcast will be available in all the usual places as well as where you can also access a trove of thought leadership around recruitment and diversity of workforce and many other topics from around the Interpublic network. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. This was fun!

[00:36:22] Outro: Thank you for listening to the Collective Intelligence Podcast. For more marketing insights and ideas, please subscribe to this podcast or visit