Kansas City Prophets Q&A: False Prophecy, Mike Bickle, and Discernment

Joshua Lewis and Michael Miller answer your questions from their recent livestream on the rise and fall of the Kansas City Prophets. They tackle some of the toughest questions surrounding false prophecy, discernment, and the legacy of Mike Bickle and IHOP.  

Topics covered include:

-How many false prophecies does it take to be considered a false prophet?
-Did God really speak to Mike Bickle in Egypt while he was actively sinning?
-Can movements rooted in Branhamism or the Latter Rain be redeemed?
-What is the value of prophecy if words can't be taken at face value?
-Was Jonah's prophecy over Nineveh a false prophecy?
-Which charismatics have actually stood up and called out bad leaders?
-Why didn't Rick Joyner publicly expose Paul Cain?

Plus, Josh and Michael reflect on Remnant Radio's own history of prophetic reviews and why they believe charismatics need to be the ones holding other charismatics accountable.

PREVIOUS LIVESTREAM:
The Rise & Fall of the Kansas City Prophets: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojy0CtsS0e8

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Welcome back to the Water World of Running Radio. My name is Joshua Lewis. This is Michael Miller. And today we're going to be answering your questions from our latest live stream. You guys stay tuned. I can tell you were trying to hit that intro button. You probably haven't putting this guy off. Michael's running the show, so we'll see how it goes. He's running it from his laptop today. So we're uh we're running through these questions.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Why are you in my studio? I am helping record the greatest new e-course ever created. We are re-recording our introduction to spiritual gifts e-course, adding all new contents and maintaining some old content and elaborating on that content, just making it better.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Beefier.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

And I've gained all this hair since then. Yeah. That's very good. That's how that happened.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Yeah, so man, today we are doing QA, some sense, and the questions that have come in from our last live stream. We did a live stream on the Kansas City Prophets talking about the rise and fall of the Kansas City Prophets using Sam Storm's book as a launching pad. And uh I figured we'll just kind of run through it. I'll ask you a question. You ask me a question. We've got a list of people's questions here on the right. Then we'll find a clever way to display this.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

So we can go, we'll we'll go through their questions and then just if you and I have questions for each other. Yeah. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Easy peasy. I'll start off with uh is it Weston Reiner, maybe? 7264 asks, how many false prophecies does someone have to give before they're a false prophet?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Hmm. The tough thing is the Bible doesn't actually give us an answer on that. Do you have an answer? Do you have a scriptural answer for that? Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna use everything would be inferential, is my guess.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Right. I think maybe this question is partially birthed by the clip that we released on the internet where you and I are talking about Bob Jones and asking the question if Bob Jones is a false prophet. Clearly having moral failures after clearly getting prophetic words wrong. Justin Peters jumped on there and was like, how how can you guys not be 100% sure you were I put percentages on things saying you were in the 80%, I might be in the 95%.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, we but we both pretty much think he's a false prophet.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

We both think he's a bad guy. But the question really comes down to is how we're using the word false prophet. I think the way that Weston might be using the phrase and the way that we're using the phrase is different. Uh I think Weston might be using the phrase to say someone who claims to be a prophet and they are in fact not a prophet. You go, that would make them a false prophet. The way I'm using the word false prophet is the same way I would use the language of a false teacher. The Bible never refers to a false prophet or a false teacher as a true professing believer that got something wrong. So we see Nathan in the Old Testament, he tells David, Hey, the Lord is with you, go build the temple. And he's not answering that question as an interior decorator, he's answering that question as the court prophet. Goes home, sleeps on it, God speaks to him, and he realized, man, I I presume to understand what the Lord was saying. I'm sorry, David. He doesn't tell us David. David, you know, doesn't build the temple in response to what Nathan is saying, i.e. what the Lord is saying. But Nathan isn't called a false prophet from that moment you're going to go on. Every time we use the language of false prophet in scripture, Old Testament and New Testament, it's someone outside of the covenant family. So I'm not taking the metric of some whether someone was a false prophet or not, solely based on the accuracy or inaccuracy of their prophecies. I'm typically using the language of false prophet for someone who leads the people of God away from Yahweh in practice or doctrine.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, I mean, you could just as quickly ask the question, how many things do you have to teach that are wrong before you're called a false teacher? And I'd go, well, it it again, it's it's not about necessarily is every teaching that you have right or wrong. It's it's the question of, are you teaching things that are going to lead people away from Christ rather than to him? If you're teaching things that are going to lead people away from Christ, like likely what Hymeneus and Alexander were doing in Ephesus when Paul told Timothy to, or when Paul says that he's handed them over to Satan to Timothy, they were teaching legalistic things like the forbidden of marriage, the forbiddings of certain foods. They were basically creating a new legal system for those who believed in Ephesus to truly be saved by. And so that would be a false teaching. We're saved by grace through faith, not through the abstinence of certain foods or the uh unwillingness to get married.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Yeah, that's right. That seems that seems fair.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Anything you want to add on that? No, I just think it's important we recognize there's not like a particular track record where we go, now this person is a false prophet. It's are we what we're looking for is are they leading you away from Christ rather than to him? Are they leading you away from faithfulness to the covenant or are they leading you to faithfulness to the covenant? That's what we're asking.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Yeah, fair. Okay. Trisha, why do you use a picture of John Paul Jackson on the thumbnail? Michael, why'd you do that?

SPEAKER_00 5:39

I don't know. I he's a very handsome man, and I just thought people should see those dazzling eyes.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Well, the way you should have answered that, not as a false co-host, but as uh is to say, I didn't make the graphic, Josh. You made the graphics. I didn't make the graphic. Yes, that's correct. So I I made that graphic, and the the episode was on the rise and fall of the Kansas City prophets. Of which John Paul Jackson is lung. Now that doesn't mean that he is immoral like the other guys were. It's unfortunate that a high percentage of the Kansas City prophets lived reprobate lives.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

But I don't think John Paul Jackson did. I don't think he did. I I do think he got caught up in I can't remember. No, it was Kim Clement who got caught up in the financial stuff, the whole Iraqi dinar thing that John Mark Baker exposed. I I think John Paul Jackson got a lot of like global words inaccurate and wrong. I think he should have stuck to making prophecy local. Because I do think his individual prophetic words or ministry was at large. You know, he had a high, high percentage of at-bats there, and that did well.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

So the next question that comes in, curious how you apply the biblical story of Samson, to Mike receiving revelation in Egypt while in sin. The the claim here, or the question here, is really readed in the fact that Mike Bickel goes to Egypt, encounters the Lord, says while he's there, he got he has this like big vision, these very specific things that God tells him, like don't neglect the poor, various other things that he sold. I think Aaron worship was like part of it. I don't recall all the information we found in that last video that we did.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

So it can be found in Sam's book too.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

But how could how could we we we ask the question, kid, is this really is this honest? Is this true? Is this really happening? Did God really speak to Mike Bickle in the situation, knowing that at the time, I think it was was it Tanny Woods, is her name, 14-year-old, who he was actively grooming?

SPEAKER_00 7:35

Actively molesting, I think. It was already it already happened, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

So you know, how how is this guy participating in sexual immorality and God speaking to him about what he's supposed to do in IHOP at the same time? Sam writes that he is skeptical that that's the case. I said, Yeah, I agree. That's I would be skeptical of that too. He's saying, Well, look, Samson was a perverse and wicked man, and God used him a couple things on Samson, but I don't think that this undermines the other. Samson was called from infancy. He was, I don't even think it had been conceived yet when the angel of the Lord comes to his parents and says, I will, I'll give you life. And I'll yeah, because I'm pretty sure that was one of the languages, the language that was used there. Prophesying Samson's birth and that had to be a deliverer in some meaningful sense. And there was commands given to his parents on how he was to behave, but he was still going to be a deliverer. Now, the life of Samson was not a life of worship unto God, it was a life of rebellion.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Well, like that's actually the problem with almost all of the judges. And you see, it gets progressively worse. They all end up being very reprobate people that had supernatural power and God used them in supernatural ways. And so, I mean, you could compare the two, but one doesn't necessitate the other. I just tend to think that Mike was a liar from day one, and so if he was lying about all of these other things, why not lying about various prophetic experiences he claimed to have? So I don't know if it's necessarily, you know, I wouldn't dismiss his Egypt prophetic experience just because of the Tammy Woods, though. I think you could and maybe even should. But I would also dismiss it because of all of the numerous lies he had told all throughout his life, which makes me question anything he said. Yeah, there's just no way to know what was the lie and what wasn't, other than the fact that he has a track record of lies.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

To have a grandiose message of like changing the world and changing the church based off of his life. In one generation, yeah. That seems a little too good to be true. So I hear here's the thing someone goes, hey, God used evil and sinful people in the old testament. I go, Yeah, sure. But also there's a sniff test, and I don't want us to look at these very rare and unusual passages as a way to kind of like prevent us from using it and exercising any form of discernment. So that's where I hang out there.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Well, I think that the other part of it is at the time of Israel when all of this was happening, the whole nation was pretty apostate during the time of Judges. Like they had all, you know, it's like they they were brought over into the land of Canaan with Moses. Then Joshua leads them into victory in the land of Canaan. And then after Joshua, everything goes exactly wayward. Everything Moses told them not to do in Deuteronomy, they eventually did. And everything Moses tells them to do, they failed to do. And you see it playing out in Judges. And so the other question is in Israel at the time of the judges, God only had really sinful people to use, and yet he was still able to accomplish his purposes, even with sinful people. And that's actually all throughout the scriptures. He uses Babylon, he uses Assyria, he uses Egypt. So he uses wicked people all the time to accomplish his purposes. I think the difference between a Mike Bickel and a Samson is the fact that there are a lot of really righteous people today that are faithfully following Christ that God could use. I don't think he necessarily needed to use Mike Bickle.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Yeah, Matt Chandler has this interesting phrase that he uses when he talks about revelation. What it did not mean for them then, it cannot mean for us now. And I I there is a question on, okay, when the book of Judges is written, what was the aim of the author and the reception of the people who received that book? Were they going, well, this book is trying to prove that sinful people are used by God? Is that the aim of the book? I would say, mm, I don't think so. I think the aim of the book is to say there's a judge who's to come and none of these are them. Oh, there's a king who's to come, and we haven't seen that king yet. The aim of the book is to point to Christ. And then we have these passages in the New Testament that are like, hey, this is what your godly leaders should look like. In Titus and Timothy and David.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Well, you have it in Deuteronomy 17 and 18 as well. Sure. Like even like, here's what a righteous king looks like, here's what an unrighteous king looks like.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

So it it describes these things in great detail. And then when people go, okay, what does a godly leader look like? Well, they go, Well, hey, look, these guys are used by God. Ooh, used by God is not the question we asked. The question we asked was, what does a godly leader look like? And when a leader is not walking in step with the gospel and they're walking outside of their qualifications as a leader by living in unrepentant, rampant sin, uh, we come on the scene and we go, Oh, hey, look, we need to we need to uh get them out of there. So a lot of people, and I'm not saying this is what's happening here uh with SOS 3.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Yeah, he's not he's not trying to make an appeal that we should trust Bickel despite his sin.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yeah, yeah, he's looking, hey, look at David. God used David after he fell, he used Samson after he fell. He's not saying that. Some people have, but I just want to be clear what it didn't mean to them then, I don't think we should take it to mean for us now. The aim of the text is to show us, man, these are bad leaders. This is what a bad leader looks like. And hey, look, Christ is coming. They're just a shadow trying to point to the substance. So I would say that that's not qualification for those who want to make that thing.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Sure. This is from Krista Erickson777. She asks, or I'm assuming she, if prophetic words cannot be taken at face value, what is the value of prophecy? That's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

If prophetic words cannot be taken at face value, what is the value of prophecy? There's a couple ways to ask answering that question. What does it mean when she says face value? There's a couple of things that come to mind. One is like, is a prophetic word's not plain, it's not easy to understand.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Well, I I kind of wonder I think I'm guessing that this person is asking about the kind of prophetic words where people keep moving the goalposts. God showed me in 2020 stadium is going to be field, there's gonna be filled, there's gonna be a nationwide revival. I'm sorry, I just got the timing wrong. And so they they move the goalpost. So this person's probably asking, like, if I can't trust that at face value, then what's the point of prophecy? Like, it doesn't allow me to actually make any kind of guiding decisions or to know anything that's gonna happen if I can't take it at face value. And I would actually agree in some sense with you. I think that there are things like that that need to be taken at face value. And if you can't, there is no value of prophecy. I think that most of what God says is meant to be taken at face value. Just depends also what you mean on that, because there are things that God reveals that are highly symbolic. And that's where we can make misinterpretation. But that's God's prerogative, not ours. He's the one who says in Numbers 12, if there's a prophet, I'll reveal myself to him in a dream or in a vision. I'll speak mysteries, dark riddles. Not so with Moses, with him I speak face to face. So if you mean by face value that it has to be like a face-to-face encounter with God, otherwise it's no value at all, I'd go, I don't know if I want to tell God that. That's how God chose to do things. Uh, I would I wish he would speak to us all face to face, but that's not how he chose to do it.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

We and I both have a friend who received what he believed to be a prophetic word, but he also acknowledges he didn't know what the meaning was. Some of the symbolism seemed pretty clear to oh certain events. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna out them at this moment, but they We definitely should, though. They understood it to mean when they had finished writing their book. But one could also go, well, did the dream explicitly say that? Did the vision explicitly say that? Could it have been when the book was published? So I think that there it is fair to say we know in part we prophesy in part. I would not be releasing that.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

I thought you were talking about the the motorcycle word. Oh, you and I are both going. Yeah. Sounds like the Lord's saying, don't ride a motorcycle, you'll get an accident. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

So that's a story from Michael Roundtree. Michael, you know, tells a joke. Oh, we joke about it, but yeah, he's like, there's a he has a picture of his motorcycle in the garage in the hand of God penning a sticky note to it, and it says Michael's death, and it gives him the date that he would die on a motorcycle. And Michael's like, what does it mean?

SPEAKER_00 16:05

We're both like, don't don't ride the motorcycle. Yeah, like this is not something you should do. Now, both of us know that he's a bad driver as well. Like he could be very absent-minded. The last thing he should be doing is driving a motorcycle. I'm not a great driver. I'm not claiming to be the world's greatest driver. I'm glad we're doing this while he's not here, too. This is great.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah. I remember when we were in in Kansas City, it was me and Jeff Tyner and Nate, his youth pastor at the time. We were we were driving, we got off the highway. He's driving his wife's car. I'm pretty sure that's why he's driving. And we're in this in this lane. Then I go, Hey, Michael, this isn't a lane. This is the shoulder. This is not good. He goes, No, no, it's a lane. Oh, Michael, this is the shoulder. He goes, Dress to me, it's a lane. And then it the rubber just ends. It's just dirt. Like, okay, it's not a lane. What makes it funny is that the next day he's in the same lane. And I go, Michael, this isn't a lane. And he goes, No, no, no. This isn't the lane. It's in the shoulder. He did it twice. It's hysterical. Back to back. This is the best time to throw Michael.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Oh, yeah, totally. Let's go to the next question.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Okay. A random boxing guy asks, How do you handle all the leaders who said things like, God told me what an honorable man Mike Bickle is? God told me what an honorable man Mike Bickle is? I don't know a whole line of people who are saying that, but let's just pretend they exist. How would you handle it?

SPEAKER_00 17:34

I that that wouldn't mean anything to me.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah. I would say I would be suspicious of those people and thinking that God probably didn't tell them that. And what is actually happening is that they wanted to give lip service and be platformed by someone who has leverage and influence. I would have suspicion.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

I mean, I think uh and and no offense to random boxing guy, but I think a better question would be what do I do with the people who vouched for Mike Pickle? Sure. Who then were deeply wrong. One of them being Sam Storms. Yeah. Our friend Sam Storms. I would say in some sense, we probably vouched. Probably on some level. No, we absolutely did. No, no, no, no. We shared the propheticate. That's right. I think absolutely. I didn't do that, but that doesn't mean and I'm not looking at you guys like, how dare you.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

I just meant remnant, not you and me. You're equally guilty for the ends of mine.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

I mean, here's the thing, though. I could have pushed against it harder. I could have said, hey, I have a problem with their ecclesiology. Hey, I've seen this prayer room vision thing really destroy people's lives. Sure. I I could have pushed much harder. So I so anyway, we're asking a question you're not asking here, but I think it's a good question to ask. What do you do with people that vouch for someone who ends up having bad character? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 19:44

It depends on what level of knowledge they had. So I think it's one thing for an average person at IHOP who knew Bob Jones, and they go, Hey, I think Bob Jones is a good guy, and they don't know anything about him. I think it's another thing for, I don't know, someone like James Gall who knows about a third account of sexual misconduct where the other people didn't know about any of the accounts of misconduct, and is asked, Hey, what do you think about you're talking about Ron Cantor's newest revelation? This video exposes that there was a third woman that Bob Jones had preyed upon.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Which also begs the question, there may be more and even more people who knew about others. I mean, there's no telling. But that's that it ends up ruining their credibility when they know something and don't bring it forward.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah. So I mean, there's one thing about someone who vouches for someone that they knit, like Bob Jo Bob Jones. Bill Johnson, onset at TBN with Chris Reed, knows he has pleasured himself and from the city. Sean Bowles, not Chris Reed. I'm so sorry. Yeah. That's liable. I didn't mean to do that. Hey, look, editing. When Bill Johnson jumps on the scene with Sean Bowles and says, Man, this book is so great. It's like a little slice of heaven. Right. When you know the character of the man who wrote it, now that person's credibility should be shot to pieces. I mean, blown up.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Because they they knew. They knew better. And then they lied publicly. So I think the other thing that I would also consider. So there's there's different categories, right? You've got the the person, there's no way they could have known. Okay. And I'm probably not going to be too harsh on that person. Um the person who definitely knew and had no problem vouching for the person despite knowing all about it. And then there's a third person. This is the person who could have known to a certain degree. And that's where the muddies get or the muddies get watered. The water gets really muddied. And that's, I think a lot of the criticism that's come Sam's Sam's Storm's way is that he could have known, he should have known. And I just go, I don't know. I really don't know the answer to that. I do know, like, if somebody vouches for me, or sorry, somebody vouches for a business guy and I'm going to enter in, I'm thinking about doing a business arrangement, and this other person refers them. And then later I find out that this person was a total fraud and crook. And then I go to my friend who vouched for, and I'm like, dude, how could you vouch for this guy? And they go, and I go, well, what all research did you did? And say, oh, we just hung out once. That that's not how you vouch for somebody. Yeah. So it's really going to be dependent upon what they could have known and what they actually intentionally looked into versus didn't look into.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Well, there's that's almost different lines too. Because you you mentioned the person who gave an endorsement and watched closely but still didn't know. The person who was like responsible for handing finance handling finances and were maybe willfully negligent when they saw numbers missing. They didn't look into it. So they didn't technically know, but they should have known. Yeah, they should have known. Well, I'm gonna hold that person more responsible for sure. And then the person who definitely knew and still endorsed. But but you just introduce a fourth category if if I caught it carefully, which is a person who has no business endorsing someone's character and doctrine who doesn't know anything about them. It would be Yeah, I guess that's a different yeah. It would be like me saying, Oh, hey, there's this Pentecostal guy that I've never heard claimed. Oh, bro, but he seems nice. So yeah, he's a man of God.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

That's almost every That's come out from you know certain publishing companies. Almost every character's because they all just like put their stamp of approval on each other's books, on each other's content. And just don't even think to look into their character at all. Yeah. And then they they whitewash it later on, scrub it from their records, pretend like they never did what they did.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yeah, I think I think we have to be careful to make sure which category someone fits in. And I think we need to have Christian charity to help determine some of that.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

So wisdom. Walk with wisdom. Sorry, that's not a very helpful answer. Streams of Still Waters as raises the question on whether many spiritual stories could simply be psychological phenomena like fantasy prone personalities distorting memories over time. I think they're really asking. I shouldn't make the dyslexic guy read the very multisyllabolic thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 24:04

So uh raises the question of whether many supernatural stories could simply be psychological phenomena like fantasy prone personalities, distorting memories or something over time. So the idea I think that is being asked here, that's kind of a complicated question, the way it's worded. I think actually maybe AI has reframed that question. Oh, maybe it's not framed, it doesn't have the quote marks like all the other quotes do. So I'm I'm thinking that it it simplified the question. So if I'm gonna read in between the lines of this translation of an actual question, I would have to say they're probably asking about prophetic words that are given specifically to personality types, maybe?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Well, I'm prone to this. No, I think what it's asking are are the so-called supernatural, because it puts it in quotes there, question or supernatural natural stories. Could it just be simply people who are deranged or people who are simply prone to fantasies? They've got the kind of personality where they can just see things in their wild imagination. Like I think of my kids, like if I start telling stories of casting out demons in front of my kids, it could cause their imaginations to run wild because kids are prone to imagine things uh far more so than we are as adults.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

What's distorting memories over time? I'm thinking of the person who actually had the vision, or I'm thinking of the person who heard it.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Well, they were already fantasy prone, and over time the the story changes.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Oh, I see. Oh, so like, oh, the fish.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

It gets more and more yeah, it gets more and more fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

I tell it 600 times, I believe the fish was that thing. So the first time Rose, this this girl who became our ward came and stayed with us, she was 14. But then I told people You had a ward? Yeah, and she's a ward of the state. Uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

That's what that means. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

She was sorry, my bad. It's okay. Not adopted, but uh, we were her legal guardians. But you know, I think actually she came and moved in with us when she was 15. Or the first time she stayed with us was when she's 14. Okay. But I told the story enough times where I was like 14, 14, 14. Why would we say, hey, that didn't happen. Yeah, it certainly did. Yeah, yeah. It's like, no, no, no. Like you just you told the story enough times wrong that that's that's what happened.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

So I mean, I if if I was to answer the question, streams of still water, I think that's quite a possibility. There's some people whose prophetic words I don't always trust because they are super fantasy prone kind of personalities that they just see meaning in everything, and they tend to see a sign and wonder like walking down the road. I see the street sign. It says, first, that means God tell me that I'm number one in his book. Like, no, man, that's not no, that's not God.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

It's at IS40. So I went to Isaiah and 40.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Yeah. You see a lot of that though. I mean, I think there are people that are that have that tendency, and I think it's perfectly right to raise that question in the case of some of the stuff we hear in Kansas City.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

I also think it's really important for people to go out of their way to make sure that they tell a miracle story honestly and really try to remember the information they're sharing so they don't accidentally get prone to that. And then if and when corrected, make sure to make that clear to people that they've told. Yeah. That's a that's a big deal. Okay. Back here, this is how would you pronounce that? Lulubi? Lulu D. Lulu D. Dyslexic. Dyslexic, yeah. 1300 to ask. It seems like so many modern denominations have roots to Branham. Can any of it be redeemed, or is it all rotten?

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Uh I don't know if that's actually true.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Like, I can't see actual denominations, maybe streams of charismaticism.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Yeah, maybe streams of charismaticism, because I'm like Presbyterian Church, Baptist Church, none of them have roots in Branhamites. I mean, so much of it is rooted in the Protestant Reformation. You've got the Anabaptists, you've got Lutherans, you've got Presbyterians and the Scottish Reformation. I mean, you've you've got the Dutch Reformed. None of these denominations have anything to do with Branham. So I if you what you mean by that is how many charismatic streams have roots. Uh yeah, and I go, well, is there quite a few? I don't actually know that because like the Pentecostal denomination is not rooted in Branhamite. No. You know, Assembly of God isn't. Uh I think there are a lot of modern-day charismatic communities that are, whether they realize it or not. And the Latter Rain movement. Can any of it be redeemed or is all of it rotten? I don't know if a movement can be redeemed. I mean, I think anything can be redeemed because God redeems people, and movements are made up of people. Now, I the the thing about these movements that makes them rotten is the certain values that they have and the unique beliefs that beliefs that they have. For instance, a lot of the latter rain movement believed that God, that they were part of an in-time eschatological movement. That, you know, they even called it the latter rain, because in Israel you have two rains. You have the early rains and then you have the latter rains. And so they saw early Pentecostal outpouring that happened in Acts chapter two as the early rains. But these people in the latter rain movement, they thought they were now a part of this in-time harvest, this God pouring out his spirit in great power, a latter rain movement. And so, how do you redeem movements that have come out of that? Well, you walk away from those bad doctrines that propagated it. Same thing would be true with the Branomites. If they were to walk away from the unique manifest sons of God doctrines, then I would imagine you wouldn't have necessarily that particular movement. They would probably join something else or come up with something else that walks away and repents from that bad belief system or value system.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Yeah, so I think that's true. That's a long answer, sorry. There's a lot of Pentecostals right now who are internally. Here's the thing. I don't want to compare it to Pentecostalism in some sense because there's the word redeemed, it makes it sound like damned. And I think Branham probably fixed that box. But when we talk about redeemed, it makes people completely lost. I don't want to compare that to Pentecostalism at large, but let's pretend for a second that we weren't taking that high view, because I think Pentecostals are brothers and sisters.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Well, yeah, in the case of the Branhamite world, there was so much sexual morality, so much lying and fraud, and that's probably what they mean. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah, yeah. But okay, so here's what I would say is like in a similar way. You know, I've got Pentecostal brothers and sisters who teach that the evidence of speaking in tongues, initial physical evidence, is of the baptism of the spirit. Yeah, yeah, the second blessing. Evidence that you have received a second blessing of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by tongue speech. So they they would say that. And that has caused people to like not be able to be greeters the front of their church. Yeah, as they don't speak in tongues. Because they can't serve, you know, the community without power of the spirit, can't do missions, can't do pastoring or evangelism because they don't speak in tongues, because that's the sign that you have power to be God's witnesses. I think it's causing a lot of damage. And you go, well, can that ever be redeemed? And I go, Well, yeah, I think so, because there's lots of Pentecostals now. We're having conversations internally, even the assemblies. A lot of the other guys are like, Well, yeah, they'll say a evidence, yeah, the evidence. And others are going, I don't even know if it's a evidence. I think faith is the evidence. So I just say, look, it's totally redeemable because if they are really bought with the blood, they really have placed faith in Jesus, the sons of God are led by the Spirit of God, and each of us are going to be called as Christians to re-examine our presuppositions and repent in areas where former generations have got it wrong. So hopefully, I mean, the call of the reformation is sempre reformada. We're always to be reforming. That's like part of what it means to be Protestant.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

So Yeah, so we're always redeeming things, ourselves and movements. Uh, let's go to Bald Dad Three Boys. He asked, Because what Jonah prophesied about Nineveh didn't come to pass in 40 days, was it a false prophecy? Ooh, that's a great question. We've actually answered this on a former podcast. We have. I'm gonna pull up this Bible verse. Well, here, while you're looking that up, I'll give some preliminary thoughts. So when I think of the what happens in Nineveh, Jonah comes and says, In this many days, Nineveh will be overthrown. Now remember, Jonah didn't want to go there. He didn't want God to extend mercy to the Nineveh. That's why he went the opposite direction. So even when he gave his word, the way he packaged it was never a if you repent, but that is exactly how God does things. He will give conditional words when it comes to judgment andor blessing. If a if he decides to bless a particular nation or church or people group and they go apostate, well, then he may decide to withhold that blessing, which is the point of the potter and the clay. And then the same thing could be true on the other side of it. If he brings about a judgment, then the people of God repent. Then God may stay his hand and pull back the judgment that he was going to bring upon that particular nation. So the words given to the Nineveh, I think, were conditional, despite the fact that Jonah, who was a rather, you know, sour-hearted prophet, didn't package it as a c a conditional word.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Yeah, so here's the passage in Jeremiah 18. Uh, if at any time I declare concerning the nation or a kingdom, and I will pluck up and break down or destroy it, and if that nation concerning which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent from the disaster that I intended to do to it. And if at any time I declare concerning a nation a kingdom, that I will build up and plant it, and it does evil in my sight, and not listen to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I intended to do to it. Now therefore say to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, thus says the Lord, behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return even one from his uh every one from his evil way, and uh amend your ways and your deeds. So here in this text, we have Jeremiah saying, I said I'll do good things to you. God is saying through Jeremiah, if I said I was gonna do good things, bad things, I might turn from the blessing I was gonna give you and pour out judgment. If I say I'm gonna pour out judgment and then you repent me to good things, I might relent out the disaster. So it seems as if those national level words have within it an intrinsic conditionality to it of national level blessing, national level destruction based on the faithfulness and repentance of.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

But you would imagine this could apply to an individual individual as well, right? I think. Give me an example. Well, I'm asking because it's a relevant, I'm asking because it's a relevant question that people are often bringing today regarding Mike Bickle. Well, Mike Bickle really did hear from God, he really did get these revelations, but then he did some really wicked things, and so God changed his mind.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

I don't see a text that I could point to in scripture where that happened. So maybe on an individual basis. On an individual basis, I don't see it. But I think if we use that standard, I think virtually every prophetic word then is not controlled by the sovereignty of God, but it's humans who allow that word to come to pass or not.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Yeah, I can see what you mean by that. So well, in either case, with Mike Bickle, he was never good. That's that's the big thing. He was never good. So whatever blessing you think God was going to bring to Mike Bickle, and then he went south, it wasn't like he went south. He was always south.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

Here's the thing is it is it foretelling or forth telling?

SPEAKER_00 35:53

In that passage?

SPEAKER_01 35:54

Yeah, when we're talking about bringing destruction and repenting. Is it foretelling or forth telling?

SPEAKER_00 35:59

That does seem to be more of a forth telling. Well, I don't know. I guess it is it's a conditional, so there is a foretelling. Like, this is gonna happen. And when they fail to repent, it doesn't happen. Right. I mean, look, you think what happens to Hananiah? The Lord has not sent you. You've counseled rebellion against the Lord, and so you are going to die. And then Hananiah dies in the seventh month of that year, which happens to be two months later. You know, he had said there would be two years of servitude in Babylon, and so God kills them two months later. This was sort of poetic justice here, but it was also to protect Israel in doing so. There was no condition on that, or maybe if it was a condition, it just happened.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

If I stood up, you never repented. Imagine if I stood up in church and I looked across the audience and there were believers and unbelievers. Just I was in your church, so mostly unbelievers. Yeah, right, right, right. I'm just kidding. I had to do boogot to see reflamation.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

You know, you know a lot of them, and they're gonna be very actually you, they're all saints.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Uh, they really are. Okay, so let's just say I'm there and in I'm in a church and it's mostly unbelievers. And as I'm preaching, I say, if you are present and you are an unbeliever, you are separated from the love and the mercy and the grace of God and the wrath of God abides on you, and your end is destruction, it will end in hellfire and brimstone. Now, would I call those people to repent? Sure. But let's just say power shut off, tornado warning happened, you know, I wasn't able to call people to repentance. I was just gonna say, hey, the microphone went out. Yeah, yeah. If you're an unbeliever, you're going to hell. Is that a true statement? Am I teaching truthfully?

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

I'm teaching truthfully. What if that person then repented? Does that make my truth claim untrue? No. Right? It's like, so so I'm I'm asking that question. I mean, I think this prophecy is functioning in that same way. The prophecy is on destruction, the prophecy on is on blessing, and those two things are contingent on someone walking out the the the uh the promises of God in that regard.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

So I I I I'm maybe a little puzzled on whether it's foretelling or fourth telling.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

So it just depends on what the conditions are related to.

SPEAKER_01 38:10

I think if someone says in three weeks this will happen, if you don't happen for yeah, like I I remember when I was in Bible schools.

SPEAKER_00 38:18

Well, got you it, you're the you're the reason it didn't happen. Well, yeah, because that's what happens. I mean, people will do that. Like if it doesn't come to pass, well, actually, the church just didn't pray enough, and that's why Trump wasn't in office in 2020.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah, I went to uh a Bible school and had a woman came to Bible school and she goes, Hey, you know, you're gonna have an encounter with the Lord in the next three weeks containing Jesus, and I have this menace encounter that even I was seeking an encounter with the Lord. I spent weeks praying and fasting and spent a long time that happened as far as I could tell. So I go, that was a false word now at the time.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Then of course you go to that person and they gaslight you and blame Shift and say it's oh oh yeah, I guess they're no, but but I I go at the time I was like, oh, I must not have thought the Lord enough. And I go Ah, you blame yourself, which is what always happens with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

So I just I go, man, that's I don't think that's the way that works of sounds saying.

SPEAKER_00 39:08

Yeah, so I think I think you're right. I think the conditions have to be a judgment and or a blessing that is either withheld or given.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

And these conditional words are given over nations. I don't see that example. Maybe there are others you can point them to me, find them in the Bible, send an email, whatever. But what if Mike did get those callings as grace is not by works? Yep, that's true, but those who uh are sons of God walk in accordance with the Spirit of God. So I just say, like, if the Holy Spirit is leading and guiding you, it's because you're a son. And again, it's hard to know where this guy was at because I don't see any fruit of repentance.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

I guess the question is, is maybe he was an unbeliever and he had that calling.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

I think the gifts and callings of God are without repentance.

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Romans. Yeah, well, it's referring to Israel. Yeah, not individuals, but I mean this is that's an interesting question. I I just doubt it because so so there's two questions that could be asked. It's Mike specific, and then people in general. And I just look at Mike and I go, I don't know if he ever had those callings because he was a liar and he lied his whole life. So it's hard to know if those callings that he claimed to have were ever actually the Lord. And now, and people in general, though, can you be a deeply wicked person and do really egregious sins and have a call on your life since it's by grace and not by works? That's a different question.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Okay, and maybe this gets cut from post, but uh, and in this way Israel will be saved as it is written, the deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob, and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins. As regards to the gospel, speaking of Israel, they are enemies for your sake, but as regards to election, they are beloved for the sake of the forefathers. For the gifts and the callings of God are irrevocable, for just as you were at one time disobedient to God, now you have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy, for God has reconciled all to disobedience, that you may have mercy on so the passage here in Romans is referring to Israel and in their rebellion, God still used them to bring about salvation to the Gentiles.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

So not just in their their you know holy good state, but in their apostasy and in their rebellion, he still used them.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

I don't question actually the fact that Mike by Mike Bickel was used by other people who are saved today because of the International House of Frayer, not because of Mike Bickel, but because God, in the midst of him being an evil person, God still accomplished great works. I don't question that that happened.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Yeah, so somebody actually challenged me because I said the fruit of IHOP was bad. And they go, Oh, be careful judging the fruit of IHOP. And I go, Well, hold on. I actually still think the ideology of IHOP, the basing yes, yes. Does that mean that God didn't do anything good in the midst of it? No, I absolutely think he did. But I think overall, that ideology, as it's propagated not just at IHOP, but a number of other churches, my former church, the upper room. I think building your church off of some specific vision that's grandioso, I think is damaging. I I think it's not holding fast to the head that that is warned about both in by Paul and by Jude.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

I mean, if three fourths of a harvest is rotten, the man has a bad harvest is your bad fruit.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Right. But the fact is, God is always using both wicked and good people to accomplish his purposes. Like we said earlier about the judges. God did use the judges, but he used them many times in their rebellion. Horrid Henry 9920. He says, Before you talk about false prophets, don't you have to first demonstrate that there are true prophets outside of the Bible?

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Not if you're a Christian. Yes, Jesus rose from the dead, therefore you should believe in the words of Jesus. So that that would cause that would be my argumentation for an unbeliever. If you are a Christian and you just happen to be a cessationist, I would say the burden of proof is actually on you. Say that we should not be doing the things commanded for us in scripture. First Corinthians 14:1, pursue love, earnestly, desire spiritual gifts, especially that you would prophesy. Command, give it to all of God's people. Paul says, if you think you're a spiritual person, recognize the things that run into you are the very words of God. So you would actually have to demonstrate to me why I should stop obeying the word of God that commands me to pursue love and earnestly desire prophecy.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

No, so I don't need to demonstrate there are true prophets outside the Bible. Why? Because the Bible tells us that there is an ongoing gift of prophecy. God puts a timestamp on our in Ephesians 4. He says, He gives these apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry until we get the unity of the faith and the maturity of the stature of Christ. So we have a timestamp for how long those things are to continue. So you have to prove to me somehow that that verse doesn't mean what it says it means. I don't need to necessarily prove that there's an accurate prophet out there to demonstrate that there are false prophets today. I just look at the scriptures and say, what does it say? Because we are, as Christians, are people of the book or creedle. Not creedle. The word we creed's correct. Well, creedle's correct, yeah, but but but but the creed of the scripture, that is, and the creed of the new covenant, that is.

unknown 45:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

No, that's Next question here is can you name any Pentecostals that you don't dislike? I think maybe someone from the Pentecostal tradition here.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Yeah, all the heroes doing our prophetic reviews.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

I disagree that I like them. And listen, that's just it is what it is. I have tons of friends in the Pentecostal movement. So I it would be hard. It's harder for me to talk about the ones I dislike because I'm not even really that familiar with the movement anymore as a whole. I'll tell you, John Mark Baker. We've entered us used several Pentecostals. Anthony Skomo is a great guy. John Mark Baker is a great guy. Craig Kerr is a great guy.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Who is the the guy that was the former yogi who repented and came to Christ and says I think he's a Pentecostal?

SPEAKER_01 45:46

Yeah. Shreve, Michael Shreve.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

And then you've got the guy who did Edwards, Jonathan Edwards.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Our friend David Miller is Pentecostal. He definitely believes in second blessing theology. Matthew Escovel? Yeah, Matthew Escovel.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

I mean he's been a second blessing guy for a while. I would classify him in the Pentecostal space because eschatology would not be there anymore, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Oh, is is eschatol eschatology kind of baked into Pentecostalism, like pre-dis uh dispensational pre-trip rapture guys?

SPEAKER_01 46:18

So classical Pentecostalism is typically defined as second blessing theology, which includes initial physical evidence. And it typically has to do with pre-rapture sort of theology to be classical. Darby, what did he do? If you're going to be a what is called a neo-Pentecostal, that typically includes some kind of second blessing, may or may not include tongues, and you might have a diverse eschatology in that group as well.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

So it's a little bit broader. The word Pentecostal doesn't mean it's not a monolithic term these days. Not anymore.

SPEAKER_01 46:49

I mean it's with everything, I think.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

But the fact is there are plenty of Pentecostals that we think are great and we like. So welcome.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Yeah. It's it's the same thing with the charismatics. Oh, totally. Charismatics I love. It's often the practitioners that make us sometimes uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Well, you and I, would you consider me a charismatic?

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Yes. Yeah, I would consider you one. In that sense of like big C charismatic. When people ask me and I have no clue who they are, I go, Do you mean like slap people with coats charismatic? Because I'm not one of those.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Yeah. Well, we like to use the word continuationist because it kind of separates us from uh both classical Pentecostal and charismatic movements. That's the easiest one. Yeah, it's hard. That's a hard it's it's it's too broad of a term.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

So rich charismatics have stood up and called out the nut job leaders before all exclamations, they're publicly shamed.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Well, that's kind of a weird question to ask because you call the nut job leader out by publicly shaming them. It's both at the same time. That's how they get called out. So have do we know which charismatics? Well, we have. We've been doing our prophetic reviews for years since 2020. We we reviewed Joseph Z, and now he seems to be getting called out left and right, but we were doing it forever ago. Beautiful. Uh really. Yeah, before it was popular. Cindy Jacobs. We were calling out her prophetic words and prophetic nonsense. We don't actually think these people are prophesying. That's the thing. We actually think they're they're deeply flawed and deeply wrong about this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Yeah. Yeah, we did. So here I'll go to Remnant Radio's page and I'll just I'll read them off to you. Remnant radio. And we'll just type in prophecy over here in the search.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

And then can you add this video in there that you're doing this little search so that it can see exactly?

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Type in prophecy. So the cat curr was the one we called out real early. We've got We called out Chris Reed.

SPEAKER_00 48:49

Chris Reed before before all that was called. Well, we did a we did a review of some of his kind of crazy things about John still being alive in some sort of cave in Turkey. And then when we found out that he had tried to groom a girl in a school, we then shared the information we had that he was also data mining. So we were the first ones to bring that public. I mean, granted, there were victims of him that came to us to tell us these things. Amos Ark, Kane Ash, Tomy Oriomi. Oh yeah. That was a popular one. Cindy Jacob. That was before all the sexual allegations came out about Tomy as well.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

Zodhi, Bishop Garlington. There's a 2020 marathon of prophecy reviews.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

We covered Perry Stone, Julie Green.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

I don't know if Jeremiah Johnson counts. We we jumped, we mentioned we didn't like the guy before all the stuff went public, but we were pre we weren't very explicit.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Dude, I was calling him out. Yeah, you were like I was calling him out very explicit. No, no, no. It was more than that. I thought he was manipulating people with prophecy and abusing people. I knew some of the stories of the victims and immediately started talking about it. No, because I didn't have I didn't have victims who were going to come forward. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Troy Brewer. Anyway, yeah. So we've we've done tons of this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

I mean, just Google, you'll you'll see all it's funny because we get the question in there about do you guys like any Pentecostals? Did anybody ever call out these bad charismatics? We get heat hit on both sides of the spectrum here. It's either we're not doing enough calling out the bad, or we're not endorsing any of the good. And yet I I think we do both. And maybe that's that's that is the center line here is that you've got to be doing both in order to get called out for not doing enough.

SPEAKER_01 50:25

Yeah, I think you have to do both, but I think that like it's where I want to be. I want to be honest. Yeah, I want to be, I want to be Christ, who's like, in some sense, disagreeing with the Pharisees and disagreeing with the Sadducees, and then finds a lawyer somewhere in the middle and goes, Hey, have part of the kingdom of that. Yeah. Turns out. Okay. Uh uh I what would you pronounce that?

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Ashries the man. I'm trying to remember if you guys ever made a video on discernment ministries. Was that a RR episode, Remmit Radio episode, or another channel? Probably done one. I don't know if we have or not. Have we ever done a video on discernment ministries? I don't know if we have. I know I know that we've rebutted certain dis discernment guys out there when they've said things that we thought were not accurate or took too far. Yeah, I don't know if we have. Yeah, I don't think that was us. I think we've said a couple things about discernment ministries in the past. But the funny thing is, some people would think that we're a discernment ministry.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Yeah, 90% of our content is talking about spiritual gifts or interviewing a theologian.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

But 90% of what people watch is the stuff where we're bringing correction.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Yeah, where we're where we're testing prophecy or calling folks out.

SPEAKER_00 51:47

Unfortunately, that's the stuff that gets the most views, but we are putting tons of content out there that has nothing to do with that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Yeah. Well, here's my thoughts on discernment ministries. I would encourage people to listen to discernment ministries that are not only saying this is what is bad, but actually trying to teach what is good. And additionally, I would encourage you to listen to discernment ministries that's focus is not on mocking or scoffing, but dealing with the facts of the matter. Yeah. As Christians, I think the way we battle matters. And I don't think that we need to mock and scoff and mutilate people's faces on our thumbnails and you know, take on and make fun of them. And I think it's hard in the thumbnail space and in the world of communication to communicate what is actually taking place in a given graphic. So I'm not saying that I have to do that. You face some crazy graphics, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:44

I've infallibly walked that line because I've never made a graphic. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Uh also, what is Photoshop? Okay. Yeah, exactly. So so okay, my my my don't mock, don't scoff. And again, I'm gonna have more grace on certain things. What is being communicated, what is being taught, and is that person actually teaching what is good? It's actually really easy to tell someone why their sermons sucked. It's really hard to get up and preach a sermon.

SPEAKER_00 53:08

Yeah, I yeah. I think the uh the thing that gets me off about certain discernment ministries is look, if you're in a different theological camp, it's gonna be really hard for you to critique a camp that you're not a part of. And so I have a really hard time with many of the cessationist uh discernment camps critiquing charismatics. Because just by de facto being a charismatic, you're automatically false in their mind. And so, yeah, well, for a large, large majority of them, I'd say, I mean, if you don't think prophets exist and somebody claims to be a prophet, then they are de facto a false prophet in the mind of a cessationist. Some are just more honest about following that to its logical conclusion. So I do think that there is some unfair criticism coming from certain discernment camps because they they're not in that camp. I really do think we need charismatics calling out other charismatics.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

But if we didn't have them to begin with, I don't think any charismatic would have done that. Like I remember in 2017, I was talking to Tarkell, and we were saying, Look, man, I wish I wish Dr. Brown would say something. Like, come on, dude. You're supposed to be the theologian of the Dominican.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Well now we know why he wasn't saying something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

But like, hey, you're supposed to, you're you you're supposed to be the theologian of the movement, but why wouldn't you call out this person or that person? Like I remember Copa Copa someone called. He was too busy defending him, and he was like, Oh, I don't know about that guy's I don't follow that guy's ministry. And it's like, geez, massive. Why why haven't you even looked into it? Yeah. So, yeah. Okay, so how in the world can Rick Joyner justify not publicly blowing the whistle on Paul Cain with conceptual clarity? Asks.

SPEAKER_00 54:48

Well, he can't justify it. He was wrong. Yeah, I mean that's yeah, he can't. Like, how can he? Maybe he's not a good person.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

Justified, justified, no, coerist, maybe. Are we allowed to talk about the coercion of him being confronted? About Paul Kane being confronted? This can be edited out, so you just tell me on the back end after I say this if it needs to be removed. But I was under the impression that there were a group of men who confronted Paul Kane, and Paul Kane replied by telling all of them their secret sins and was like, public, I'll go public.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

Yeah, to be clear, that did happen. But what also happened is they said, Okay, do that.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

Go for it.

SPEAKER_00 55:31

Yeah, Jack Deer was like, fine, say say everything you want to say. So I know that he did try to call them out for whatever he had perceived as prophetically as secret sins. The thing was, Paul was recording conversations and things that they had said in private and was threatening to go public with those. And Jack Deer for sure said, Okay, do that. And he was still willing to.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

He shouldn't have said, but also he's like, I don't care.

SPEAKER_00 55:59

Yeah, no, he'll definitely do that. Like, that's that's Jack. Yeah, so I don't think his coercion worked, if that helps. Sure. But I do think, you know, when it came to what got Jack to not tell the full story, yeah, it actually was pressure from his friends and hit them claiming, hey, you appear bitter. Yeah. And so Jack was trying, he when he heard that, he's like, Oh, well, I don't, I don't wanna, I don't want to be bitter. Yeah, like I want to lose sanctions. So he didn't go public with certain things. But you can see how totally manipulated that is. So be clear, I really care for Jack.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

I just he he was just, I mean, what do you think about a guy whose dad shot himself, whose son shot himself, his wife like has had all the health conditions that she's had. Like, he has had the roughest life. And he's a he's right around the edges. He's just but he's he's honest, basically, tell you what he thinks. Yeah, he seems to be a man of virtue who's stood by his guns over the years. Yeah. Over serious things like this.

SPEAKER_00 56:53

I think Jack has done better with what he had than most people do with what they have. So I I have the utmost respect for him here. And I'd also say that he was willing to pay dearly to expose Paul, and he was the the forefront of that. And again, the ones who held it back from being as public as it should have been were those who were his friends. And so I I guess you could say he didn't have much discernment when it came to Mike Bickle or Rick Joyner and some of his friendships. That's true. Sam would say the same thing about himself.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

But he had the most to lose when it came to Paul Kane.

SPEAKER_00 57:29

Yeah, yeah, he did. He absolutely did.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

So for that, keep it up. Okay, pronounce that one. The man. Do we already do that one?

SPEAKER_00 57:39

We've asked uh a a question from that person already. Let's come back to it then if we have time.

unknown 57:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Do you honestly think there can be a lying sign and wonder even in the heavens?

SPEAKER_00 57:52

What do you mean by lying? Does that mean it's not actually what it is? Esther J. Tony. Or do you think it's that a bad person can predict signs and wonders in the heavens?

SPEAKER_01 58:01

I think he's saying you guys said that there's a comet up in the sky. You guys said that there was rain that was predicted, and then Josh speculated that it might have been a demon that predicted the things of knowledge or caused that event to take place. Oh, I oh yeah. Saying, oh, even in the heavens? Is that what you're saying? Like you think demons have that kind of power? I think that's what you're saying. I'm not trying to put words in their mouth.

SPEAKER_00 58:24

Oh, but I would say they do.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

I think demons can predict things like that. Absolutely. Yep. I think demons cause things like that in the book of Job.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

Yeah, well, you see, Deuteronomy 13, they predict a thing that comes to pass. They perform signs and wonders. But then in doing so, they say, Let us go and worship these other gods. Yes, false prophets do exactly that thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

So yeah. Yep, I'm with you. And see, Job, you know, Satan causes a whirlwind to kill a bunch of folks. So, like, yes, I'm control over the air.

SPEAKER_00 58:55

Yeah, well, that actually is the whole thing when Jesus rebukes the storm, it's seen as the chaos monster. This is more than just uh a storm, it's a cosmic force that Jesus was rebuking.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

I'm not quite there, but there are others who who who believe that that is happening. So you're not on no funding. There aren't the oligons who believe that.

SPEAKER_00 59:16

I'm uh I'm with the German scholar about the Chaos Kampf.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

The Chaos Kampf?

SPEAKER_00 59:21

Yeah, yeah. I think I don't know that's how it's said or something. Okay. Germans are all upset. Because the Germans Jew should not speak the German. That was a bad joke to me. That was worse than what I said.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

Okay. Yeah. What you do on this line. What I said. Release the tape. How does the concept of the two wills of God play into the statement made in this video? If God said it, it should come to pass.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

The two wills of God. So God wills on some level for all to be saved, but we know that not all will be saved. And he said that. Yeah, and he said that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:12

I think that might be what they're saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

I think maybe that the question is being re reading scripture in a hyper-literal way, that by his stripes you are healed. Oh, but at least there's two wills of God. Like I I take some comments when I read them, I just assume it's combative. I don't think this person's a combative person, but playing in the statement that there's, hey, if God said it, it should come to pass. Well, he said, by our stripes you are healed, why didn't that come to pass? And, you know, I will all of it be saved. Why didn't that come to pass? He said it. Okay, but that's not quite the same. When we're talking about prophecy and the way that prophecy functions, either God is sovereign and he knows what will happen and is communicating that to people, or he's not. And I think that undermines the the sovereignty and supremacy of Christ when we make prophecy this thing that, like, oh, maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't. But the two wills of God thing is what God promises and what God decrees. And I think a good massive chunk of prophecy is what God decrees. It will be this way. And there's no amount of repenting or mourning or turning that's going to cause me to you know wart my hand. And then on the opposite side, like for example, the virgin would conceive. Is that a decreed word? Or is that based on human participation? Do that being a decreed. That thing is gonna happen. And yet Jonah gave us a prophetic word that they're gonna be destroyed and that doesn't come to pass. So I just I do not think all prophetic words are generic. I think that they're I would say most of them are decreed, and the only ones that I think are just kind of like this nebulous words or these conditional prophecies that seem to be over nations.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:51

Yeah, I agree. I don't have anything to add to that. Okay. There was one other question we skipped, and this would be the last one for the show, but uh this is by Ashri the Man or Ashrice the Man. This is your second question, and I can't tell if it's sarcastic or actually sincere. So we're gonna answer it like it's a sincere question. He says, Do you make it a habit of calling out people you've not listened to? I don't think we've called out anybody we haven't listened to. Now we may not listen to them on the regular, but I mean we we listen to it to call it out. Yeah, we do our research beforehand. So I don't know, it seems like a sarcastic speak. Yeah. What did you say, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Was that uh no? I don't I if you would tell me where I've called someone out and I I had no knowledge of who they were or what they were doing, I'd I'd I would pretend to that. I don't want to do that. That seems like it's bearing false witness when you make a claim about a person that you don't know. That would be bad. That would that that would be sin, definitionally. Yeah. If I've ever done that and you've seen me do it, please let me know because I need I don't want to be responsible for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:06

All right, that's it, man. Yeah. Do you have any questions for me? And any reflection? It's fun getting to do this in a studio together. Yeah. Should do this more often. Yeah, just pizza.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

Guys, thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Remnant Radio. We'll see you next time from 4 to 5 p.m. Central Standard Time. I think I'm gonna do an episode this week. I think I'm gonna film an episode about those glowing lights that everyone keeps summoning an alien. That was our outro earlier. Look for that. All right, adios.