Prophecy, Words of Knowledge & Evangelism with JonMark Baker | Minor Prophets Podcast

Can a prophetic word reach someone an argument never could? What if the most effective evangelism tool in Scripture is a detail about someone that only God could have known?

JonMark Baker of the Minor Prophets Podcast joins Remnant Radio to talk about the gift of prophecy and words of knowledge as on-mission tools for evangelism.

ABOUT THIS EPISODE:
We live in a culture that's heard plenty of arguments for God and built a callus against most of them. Apologetics still matters. But what do you do with someone whose heart hardened against Jesus before you ever opened your mouth?

That's where a word of knowledge does something logic can't. A divinely-given word proves to a stranger that God sees them, knows them, and has His eye on the actual details of their life. Paul described exactly this in 1 Corinthians 14:24-25: an outsider walks in, the secrets of his heart are laid bare through prophecy, and he falls on his face declaring that God is really among you. It's the New Testament's own case study for prophecy as evangelism.

This is a conversation about giftings doing what they were always meant to do: building up the body of Christ, and pushing back the darkness in a culture that needs reminding God is real, and still speaks.

0:00 – Introduction
2:27 – JonMark Baker
4:36 – Prophesying & Availability
9:54 – God Speaks Subtly
20:49 – Spirit, Mind, Thought
25:33 – Prophetic Evangelism Steps
36:38 – Parable of the Soils
44:36 – Power & Evangelism
49:30 – Closing Thoughts

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. In this program, we've got John Mark Baker with us, and we're going to be talking about the gift of prophecy, specifically how it relates to evangelism. It's going to be an exciting program. You guys stay tuned. Guys, welcome back. Joshua Lewis here. Uh man, lots of really crazy stuff going on. I'm getting ready to go out to sunny San Diego, California. I'm going to go back to Foothills Church. They have a youth conference called FutureQuest. And I have been tasked to preach the gospel. So I've been working on that last couple of days, trying to figure out what this gospel thing is that they want me to talk about. It's going to be fun to go out there and talk to the youths. I've got Miller over in Spain. So if his internet connection is a little faulty, uh, we might just drop him and me and John Mark just might go do a dual program. But without further ado, I'm going to introduce you to my co-host, my friend, all out there in Spain. Miller, what are you doing in Spain?

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Uh I just finished doing a conference in Catalonia or Catalon. I I can't say it correctly. Um but yeah, I just did a conference on deliverance, um, which went great. And I'm heading back tomorrow. And Josh, I'm actually gonna be in San Diego. Uh I fly out there on Wednesday.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

What are you doing? I fly on Thursday.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

I'm going to it on the way. Oh well, let's hang while we're there. I'm sure. Are you gonna be out of the camp or are you gonna be at the church?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

I'm gonna be there at Foothills. That's where they host the youth camp.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Okay. Well, let's hang.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Okay, we're like literally making plans on air. That's hilarious. Okay. Uh uh schedules, who knows? Okay, so um, yeah, I've got John Mark Baker with us. Uh he is the host of the Minor Prophets Podcast. Uh, he's been on the program multiple times. And every time John Mark comes on the program, it's like, hey, let's just talk about someone who's really screwed up. We're gonna talk about it in front of the church. We're gonna we're gonna do more exposure stuff. And John Mark and here at the Remnant Radio, we all feel great weariness when it revolves around the exposure ministry. It's necessary. We need to do it, we need to be obedient to scripture. But man, we just really enjoy talking about what the Bible says, teaching people about the scriptures and the gifts of the spirit and those sorts of things. So I'm excited to have John Mark Baker on the program today, not to expose anything, but rather to talk about the scriptures, the gifts of the spirit. So, John Mark, thanks for coming on with us, buddy. Tell us, our viewers who aren't familiar with you, uh, a little bit about yourself and your ministry.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Uh yeah, I'm a pastor and uh I it's called Roots Church. It's uh uh name of my church. I'm not the senior pastor there, but I'm on staff. And I do this podcast called the Minor Prophets Podcast. Uh, not a prophet, in spite of the fact I'm talking about the gift of prophecy here, and the name of my my channel can be confusing. Don't don't claim prophethood or anything like that. But um, in the spirit of the minor prophets of the scriptures, um, uh we aim through that podcast to call God's people back to covenant faithfulness with himself. I've been a big fan of Remnant Radio for uh a long time. I think I started listening maybe in 2019. It's when I first heard about you guys, and I've been a fan ever since. So um really uh it's a great honor to be with you. And I'm gonna be in San Diego um next week as well. I'm actually just I'm learning about that.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Oh man, geez, Louise, I was like, that's wild. This is this is crazy that's a fucking um so uh John Mark, now you you say in one breath, hey, I'm I'm not claiming to be a prophet. I think what you're saying, and and help me clarify here, is that there is something within the charismatic movement where we like have profit in our business card and introduce ourselves as prophet John Mark Baker. You're saying that is appalling to you. And you did not name your podcast the minor prophets because you're a self-proclaimed prophet. You named it minor prophets because again, you're calling the balls and strikes as it relates to calling people of God back to covenantal faithfulness. Like that was the purpose of the podcast. Praise God. But within that same breath, you are prophetic. I mean, you you give both both more detailed and frequent words uh than basically anyone that I know at this point. Uh, and I know quite a few people who are very prophetic. So uh do you want to speak into that? Did I nail that uh as a description? You're not you're not proclaiming yourself as a prophet as it relates to uh the minor prophets podcast, but you do have and use the gift of prophecy, what appears to be pretty regularly.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Uh man, I just try to obey the scriptures. Earnestly desire spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. And in that same passage in 1 Corinthians 14, it says, strive to excel at that which builds up the church. And so that's what I try to do. I strive, which means try really hard to excel, get really good at that which builds up the church. And in context, that's the gift of prophecy. And so I I want to be used of God as often as I can. But uh when the reality is, and this is what we even in this program, when we're teaching on prophecy and we're teaching on spiritual gifts like that, we these are up to the will of God. Uh, we cannot teach somebody how to prophesy uh because you can't teach somebody how to make God talk to you. But uh what you can do is like uh I think I've heard Michael Roundtree use this analogy before, um, but I've heard other people use this as well. It's like um a surfer. You can teach somebody how to surf, but teaching somebody how to surf is not teaching them how to control the waves or the weather, but it is how to be in the right position and how to respond when the wave comes. And so that's essentially what I try to do and try to practice throughout my daily life is just try to pay attention to the Holy Spirit and and whatever he might communicate and the various ways that he might communicate and try to be discerning about, well, was that God? I don't know. Like it's not unbelief to be a little bit skeptical about, well, that might not have been God. Let's actually examine it. That's why the scripture tells us to test everything, you know, don't despise prophesizing, but test everything, hold on to what is good and reject every form of evil. And we talk about that in sort of a broad, grandiose, that grandiose is the wrong word, but kind of a broad level of application uh within within the church structure. And that's good. I mean, we talk, we analyze, you know, prophecies, you guys do it every year, prophecies for the new year. But what if we just tried to live sensitive to the Holy Spirit and and try to be in a in a place where he might speak to us, especially as it pertains to the the place of evangelism? And so I try to walk in that as often as I can and uh to varying degrees of success.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Yeah, that's good. Uh I'm looking over to Miller to see if he's wanting to chime in. Uh, it's hard to see his little icon there and uh see how glitchy it is. Walk us through what we're gonna be talking today. Uh you gave us some some really good show notes, kind of walking through uh an outline of as how it relates to man hearing God's voice, how that relates to evangelism. So just give us a high 30,000-foot view of where we're going today.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Yeah, so I want to talk a little bit about how the Holy Spirit often communicates, at least to me, and I think it's actually borne out scripturally. We can we can look at some examples in scripture and how to discern uh how it is the Holy Spirit is actually communicating to us. Some people I think mistakenly believe that if God's going to communicate to you, he's going to do so in ways that are evident and obvious to everyone, and you won't be able to miss it. Um, but I actually have some examples from scriptures where that doesn't actually bear out. Um I want to talk a little bit about uh discernment, um, discerning the voice of God. I want to talk about um how to position our our hearts to be receptive to be seeking the kingdom of God as we are out and about and and and use that as a as a way to share the gospel with people, and hopefully there'll be a real helpful application for everybody at the end.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Yeah, I I might have been uh too zealous in my introduction here about uh talking about what the Bible says and spiritual gifts. Uh uh, someone, Yahweh, something or other, I think he changes his name from time to time, or there's lots of Yahweh's out there. I'm only aware of one uh funny theology joke. Um, but uh this guy says, hey, you know, uh the remnant guys think what the Bible says is spiritual gifts. I either I misspoke or maybe you misunderstood. I meant to say we like to talk about what the Bible says about sotteriology, eschatology, uh, ecclesiology. We interview scholars and theologians on the podcast all the time. And I like talking about spiritual gifts because the spiritual gifts concept, uh, the only folks that are talking about this online, I mean that's a that's a bit of a uh an over exaggeration, but a good chunk of the people who are talking about this online are off in la la land and it's completely untethered to scripture. So we try to uh create regular content here on the podcast covering spiritual gifts, uh, one as a way to police our own space, but also to give a kind of deeply theological uh sort of representation of what the charismatic movement could be uh if we really stayed grounded in the scriptures and kind of avoid all the excesses and uh unbiblical practices. So hopefully I have uh assuaged Yahweh's uh uh discomfort with my statement there. Yikes. That's even it's hard for me to even say.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

John Mark, you were saying that that there is reason to uh not have a hundred percent confidence that everything you're hearing from God is from God. Um and you've got a number of reasons for why that is. Give us your first.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Yeah, well, let's just look at what the Bible says. Um, Job 33, 14 says, for God speaks in one way and in two, though man does not perceive it. Um then so uh right there is just like God speaks in ways that are that are sometimes mysterious to us. Um Jesus spoke in parables for the very purpose of hiding truth from those who were too proud to uh to really uh perceive it. We see John 12, 27 through 29. I'll read it really quickly. Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour, but for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name. Then a voice came from heaven, I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again. The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, An angel has spoken to him. So there we have a literal voice from heaven, and because of the hardness of people's hearts, they're not able to actually perceive the fact that God is communicating very clearly about his son and about his name, that he will glorify it. Um, then Dallas Willard uh he he draws from the parable of the soils or the parable of the sower. And in that parable, he he essentially lays out the fact that it was the condition of the soils that made it whether uh that determined whether or not they could receive the word of God, you know, and this is obviously a parable of soteriological import. But the reality is that I think that, and he he applies it to discerning the voice of God. It is the condition of our soul that makes us able to perceive whether or not God is is speaking to us. And um, in Romans chapter 8, verse 5, those who walk in accordance with the flesh have their mindset on what the flesh desires. Those who walk in accordance with the spirit have their mindset on what the spirit desires. And that tells me a little bit of something about how it is that we can determine and discern and position our souls to be able to perceive whether or not the Holy Spirit is speaking to us. And uh ultimately, though, when God is speaking, you'll know it's God, it will be borne out by the evidence. It'll be true. So, for instance, if you're walking by somebody, you have an impression maybe that uh they've been having nightmares or they they have grief because they recently lost a family member or something like that. Um, the that impression might come to you, and you don't know it's God until you ask, hey, um, I was walking past you. I felt compassion. I started to pray, and this thought came to my mind. And is it okay if I share that with you? Did you did you recently go through grief because you lost somebody? This is a real story um that happened when I was in Czech Republic. I was at a restaurant. There was a uh a waitress, and I she came to our table, and I just had this thought come to my mind that three years previous she had lost a family member and she was dealing with grief. I also had a sense that she wasn't sleeping well, that she was having nightmares, that she was getting migraines, and that when she got the migraines, she would get dizzy. And those impressions came to my mind as I was just kind of I was seeking to be available to the Lord, like, Lord, will you use me in whatever way you want to use me? And I was trying to be sensitive, but I didn't know whether or not I was actually hearing God until I asked her. I of course needed a translator, so some of this is mediated on trust that the translator was telling me the truth, but I know the translator really well, and so I I I believe that that that was accurate. And so I I got to pray for her. It was so amazing because when I shared these things, she was shocked. How did you know these things? I prayed for her. This was in a town called Bilina in in the eastern part of Czech Republic. And as I'm sharing the gospel with her, this other girl comes up and starts standing next to her and she starts listening. I wasn't aware, but like her boyfriend was like the second girl's boyfriend pulls up into the uh parking lot and starts honking the horn. It was like this demonic thing trying to interfere with the gospel. Part of my team saw what was happening, started to pray. It was like the cone of silence fell down. And I shared the gospel. I I invited them to repent of their sins, you know, die to the die to the old life and received a new life in Jesus Christ. There was a pastor of a brethren church that was there that was uh helping me translate, and I shared the gospel. They both received the gospel with joy. They prayed a prayer of repentance uh for salvation, and the pastor was connecting them directly to the church at that very um right then. And so it was just it, it was absolutely amazing. And that was one of the ways that these gifts lead towards evangelism, but the way that you know it's the Lord is if it if you're right, you know, like is it right? Is it true? And if it's not, you'd be like, oh man, I uh something's up with my discerno meter, you know, like I had bad pizza or too much Toggle Bell yesterday, and you know, you you move on. But like um that was that was one of those moments that was just absolutely astoundingly Jesus glorifying and a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

How do you discern those moments? Because uh, you know, personally, the only time I've ever done prophetic ministry that I mean just probably just full stop has been in prayer settings where someone has said, Hey, would you ask God for a word? And I'm looking for a direction, I I've got a thing I'm praying about. Would you you ask God and then I'll pray and then get a picture or a sense or whatever, and I'm okay, make sense of that and I share it. And oh, that's really that speaks to exactly where I'm at, and that really encourages me and builds me up and edifies me. Uh, other times uh we kind of flip that scenario, um, and uh I'm in a uh a conference and I'm asked to prophesy. So I'm looking through the room and I'm asking God to highlight somebody, and then I kind of pray for each person. And if God doesn't give me anything, I kind of move on to the next person and I start writing down whatever God gives me for the person that seems to be highlighted. Uh you the what I I've seen you do this, but then also hearing the story, it seems as if uh these things kind of happen more spontaneous to you, uh, where you might not even be seeking these words. How do you discern that this is in fact God? I mean, I I know that the only way you know in that story was by sharing it and asking for feedback, but but are these just like intrusive moments that just start coming upon you? Um I don't know that I've ever detected that sort of thing. And would you expect others to experience that as well?

SPEAKER_01 16:43

I I don't know what I would expect others to experience, but I'll say this. When I was a kid, I was uh 16, I had an encounter with Jesus and I wanted to follow him for the rest of my life. And I said, God, if you're really this good, I will serve you for the rest of my life. And I began having a passion for evangelism, and then I started hearing about uh you know prophetic evangelism and and praying for the sick and seeing people get healed, and I'm like, wow, what a novel idea. That that like God could do that, and it's amazing. And then I read the Bible and I was like, oh, that's what Jesus did, and that's what his disciples did. And so I that's what I wanted to do too. And so I started to pray for people at the grocery store that I worked at, and nobody I wasn't seeing anything. But the very first time that I like had sort of a word of knowledge, it was at a a church meeting, and they just said, pray for the person next to you. And I didn't know the person next to me. And I put my hand on this guy's shoulder, and everything I prayed, he goes, How did you know all that? I'm like, How did I know all what? He's like, everything you were praying is exactly what was going on in my life. And I started to realize that as I was seeking, and I'm I'm gonna put theological language to this right now, or I guess biblical language rather, as I was seeking the kingdom of God for this person's life. So, what does it mean to seek first the kingdom of God? It first of all has to do with your attention, and second of all, it has to do with your pursuit. So to seek first the kingdom of God means that I am prioritizing God's rule and God's plan over the uh life of the person that's in front of me and over my own life, that the kingdom has an agenda in my life, and it's it's beyond just my own comfort and my own desires and my own uh to-do list. Like the kingdom is at hand and God is is up to something, and he's looking for people who will seek his kingdom first. And so uh when you're in that position of intercession, you you described it, Josh, like when you're praying for somebody, and then maybe God would speak to you. Well, what did you do? You started to seek the kingdom, and I've just decided like I can live like that, I don't have to turn that off. I can just sort of be like, Lord, I'm I'm available to you, and you can do whatever you want to do in my life, whatever you want to do. You can have all of me to to say, God, I give you my life, what is your life except for all of the minutes that you have left? And to give to say, God, I give you my life, but you can't have any of my minutes is to lie. And so it's it's like it's an attitude of surrendering to Jesus that is walked out moment by moment, day by day. And as you can uh what happens to me is I'll be I'll just say, Lord, I'm available, you can use me, and I'll get gripped with compassion for somebody. And I will just pay attention to the things that come to my mind uh when when I am gripped with compassion. I've got some stories about that, but I've been monologuing, so I'll throw it back to you.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Well, actually, um well, I was gonna throw something, uh another question at you, Joe Mark. Um I I can't remember where I heard this. It was some other author that was talking about hearing the voice of God, and he's talking about how for uh for us to speak to each other, I have to create sounds with my vocal cords. It has to be transmitted through the air, through sound waves, and reach your ear, and then be interpreted by your thoughts before you respond and even maybe clarify whatever I said. God doesn't have to do that, he's not he's not using sound per se to speak to us. Uh he can speak directly into our minds, he can bypass all of those processes we have to go through to speak. And so for most people, this goes beyond their expectation. You know, they kind of expect God to speak to us like we speak with one another, but that's really not required by God. He can do this however he wants. Uh, comment on this. Do you think the scriptures support this?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

I do. I I think I think philosophy supports it as well. So 1 Corinthians chapter 2 talks about who knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of a man within him, likewise, who knows the thoughts of God except the spirit of God? What you have received is not the spirit of the world, but the spirit of God. And then he ends this passage. He's obviously talking about a revelation of the gospel by the Holy Spirit to the heart of a believer. And so, but what is the revelation of the gospel except communication coming from the Holy Spirit? Well, what form does that communication take? At the very end, he says, we have the mind of Christ. Um, if I were to think about what it is to have a mind and I were to divorce it from having a spirit, like there is a um philosophy, there's a school of thought about consciousness. Like, what is consciousness? Nobody really seems to know. So there's one school of thought that it is emergent from the sufficient complexity of neural networks within the brain. And that once things get complex enough, suddenly poof, there appears consciousness and self awareness and thought. And so once you get, you know. Enough wires crossing and doing the things they're supposed to do, and enough electrical and chemical reactivity, then that will eventually produce consciousness given certain uh you know complexities. That doesn't, I'm I'm not it like critiquing that really is above my pay grade. I'm just gonna say from a layperson's perspective, that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And it seems that the Bible seems to support this as well, that there is something about the person that transcends matter, which is, you know, like your brain, your meat computer that you have between your ears. Like there's something about us that transcends all of that. And I think the Bible calls it the spirit. And if I were to take my spirit, Michael, and I were to put it inside of you, I you wouldn't need me to be talking to you because my spirit would live inside of you. But that is exactly the relationship that we have with the Lord. He has given us his spirit. So why would like we want to hear the audible voice of God, but it's not even the scripture I just pointed to describes that that's not even foolproof, right? Like God can speak audibly and you can still miss it, but the Holy Spirit speaks to you. And if your spirit is responsible for your consciousness, which is what the view that I hold to, I think JP Moreland also holds to this view. Um, if that's true, my spirit is responsible for my consciousness and my thoughts, that would make sense why I'm transformed by the renewing of my mind and all of these passages about maintaining our mind, you know, uh Colossians chapter three, verses one through three. Some of these passages all have to do with what we meditate upon, what we think about. And it's spiritual activity. That's that's why. Like the the spiritual warfare that's going on, all of the elements of the armor of God are elements of the gospel, and they are to extinguish the fiery darts of the enemy that have come. I believe that those are those lofty opinions, vain imaginations. What are those? Those are thoughts. The thought world is spiritual. And so if that's the case, why wouldn't communication from the Holy Spirit also be within that realm? And so that that makes me think that perhaps communication from the from the Holy Spirit would be through a certain kind of thought. Um, and I've just seen that to be true. There's times where thoughts run through my mind, and and it could be nothing other than the Lord. Uh, one time I was praying for somebody, and I have this image of a red dodge truck just flashed through my head. I'm like, is that God? I don't know. I but I it came with this understanding that seven years prior that this woman had been in a car accident with a red dodge truck. And so I I said, Were you were you in a car accident with a red dodge truck about seven years ago? And her jaw hit the floor. She's like, How did you know that? I'm like, I didn't I didn't know that. It was I was praying for you, and the thought just went through my head, and I was just like, maybe that's God. We'll find out. And so that's that is the way primarily that the Holy Spirit will will sort of lead and guide and direct. And by the way, that's the way we got saved. Somebody proclaimed the gospel, and the Holy Spirit began to illuminate the truth of the gospel to our to our hearts, and we believed it. And it probably just felt like thinking, it probably just felt like thought, but the scriptures declare that actually that's the work of the Holy Spirit. So, anyway, those are some of my arguments for that end.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

I still want to know the mechanism on how you're doing this. So, and again, I know you're gonna argue I'm not doing this, which again, praise God, that's biblical. But are are are you when you're walking through the gas station, and you know, this is a story where you you were with me and you might be getting the details better. This happened a couple months ago when you came out and spoke here in Ada. Uh, but there's a lady, um, I don't know whether we need to give her a name or not, because it'd be pretty easy to track her down. Um, but uh anyway, regardless, if she asks us me to move it, I'll I'll pull it. But uh, I think her name was Christina, if memory serves me right. And you were like, hey, uh, I feel like I've got this word for you. Is it okay if I share it? And she's like, sure. And and you're like, I think you've got this pain in your back, and you've got this tingling in your toes, and you've got this digestive problem, and and the tingling in your toes keeps you up at night. And and she was like, Yes, yes, yes. And then you you you talked about something that happened in the past, you gave a date to it, she knew what was going on there. Um, it was very specific. I mean, were you walking through the gas station going, Lord, speak to me, Lord, highlight someone to me? Or or did you just walk through the gas station? You said you looked at a person and you felt compassion towards her. Is that the the the normal mode that you just you have a feeling? And then from that feeling you go, Lord, do you have something to say? Or is it just like a download? Like help me understand the mechanism by which you're like communing with the Lord, um, because I think that will help people. I think they see people all the time and and feel sorry for them. But but don't don't go to step two. Uh, I just want to somewhat break it down because I think that this is extremely fruitful. And I would hope that more and more people uh would kind of lean into this because I think evangelism would be all the more potent when you know reaching completely lost strangers and saying, hey, this is what God has to say about your life. Uh, it really seems to unlock their whoa, God is real, he's doing stuff, he knows who I am, he sees me. Um, so so yeah, help help me understand even just the way that you do this because we move very quickly from I feel compassion, and then I get these words, I'm like, whoa, I feel bad for people all the time, but like I I'm not prophesying over them.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Yeah, I maybe it's helpful to define usually I I can be open and receptive to the leading of the Lord, or I can be walking in the flesh. When I and when I'm walking in the flesh, I'm I'm much less sensitive to to the Lord. It's just how it is, you know. You I've set my mind on the things of the flesh. I'm not seeking first his kingdom, I'm seeking my kingdom. And those things are you cannot serve two masters, right? So um the the way that I position my heart to be receptive to the Lord, and and if a wave is coming, you know, to use the surfer analogy, is is to say, Lord, I'm available. And whatever you want to do, uh whether it's in the gas station, I'm uh like wherever I happen to be, you come first above every other everything else, you come first and help me to be receptive, help me to be sensitive. And so I can't make it happen. And if I try to start making it happen, you know, because I'm just overzealous or something, it always fails. It always ends up in in just you know, horrible, uh just a painful experience for everybody because I'm trying to kick open doors, God isn't opening. But if I if I just sort of say stay in this, um, I'm just like I'm available, Lord. I'm I'm available, and I'll just be noticing, you know, like somebody will just be brought to my attention. It's like the Holy Spirit sort of directing my attention, and I'll feel compassion for that person. And it's a compassion that is it's not normal, like I'm I'm normally kind of I'm I'm a compassionate person just by temperament. Um, you know, I'm I'm empathetic, but it's different than that. It's not like a oh I poor person, I feel so bad for you. It's like it's this compassion that comes with an expectation that God could do something about this. And um it it comes with faith. And so when I feel that, I'm like, okay, Lord, what do you want to do? What's what problems are you wanting to solve? What is your kingdom about right now? What does your rule look like in this person's life? And that's when you know I'll have one thought and I'll ask that person, hey, is is this something that's going on? Or because sometimes I do get out over my skis, I get overexcited. I, you know, um, sometimes you can confuse your own personal sort of intuitive perception of people with that, and that's not right, you know, that's not the Holy Spirit. But when the when it is the Holy Spirit, it's like it will be specific, it will be accurate, and it will be potent in that person's life. And so I just simply ask, hey, I was I'm a Christian, I walked past you, I felt compassion. And this might be weird for you and your worldview. I don't know where you're at with God or Jesus or any of that, but I'm a Christian and I started to pray for you. I felt compassion for you. And this thought came to my mind. I'm just wondering if I could ask you if I'm maybe I'm hearing the Lord about this, or maybe, maybe I'm just off my rocker, or can I can I share this with you? And that humility, um, you know, willing to willing to look like an idiot for Jesus, and and God will use that. And so that's that's been my approach. That's helpful.

SPEAKER_02 31:06

What were you gonna say, Josh? Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

I was just gonna say, yeah, that's helpful. I mean, there's just the mechanism of like, okay, I feel the compassion. What do I do with that? I ask a question, I get an impression, I look for feedback. Like it's it's real simple, but it it it hopefully removes the kind of bail when people hear that story of like, and then I just told this person everything about their life and they gave their life to Jesus. Like, whoa, that that escalated quickly. Like, how did I get from here to there? And to be able to say, I took this baby step with I felt the compassion, I asked a question, God gave me some information, I looked for feedback from that person. It's just it's just a helpful process to think about. Go ahead, Melan.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Yeah, well, it's interesting because for me it it works differently. I mean, I've had a decent amount of stories. Um it doesn't happen all the time, though, for me. Uh Joe Mark, most of the time for me, it's not like I'm saying I'm available. It's just all of a sudden I'll know things about people or I'll look at somebody, yeah. I just suddenly things will come out of nowhere. And I just, you know, I have to uh act on it kind of thing. But it's not like I'm saying, hey Lord, I'm available. I may not be thinking anything about being available. Um, so it's just it is interesting. I'm curious to know uh how would you encourage somebody to grow in that outside of just saying, hey, I'm available, Lord.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Yeah, I I've had the same experience, Miller, but I think usually, and maybe this is maybe I'm wrong about this, but you could probably say you're available as a general attitude of your life. Like you you are eager to be used of God. And I would say that that audibly saying to God, Lord, I'm yours and you can use me however you want. John Wimber is famous for saying, I'm just a coin in God's pocket and he can spend me any way he wants to. And like that attitude is what the Lord is looking for. I think that's what it means to seek his kingdom first. And um, so to grow in these gifts, you know, you've got everybody has different gifts that they're strong in, you know, and they're gonna grow in in different ways. Um, but the the way to grow in them is to say, Lord, I'm eager to be used of you. I I want to be used, give me opportunities, like make me available. Um, the first time I ever got like a word of knowledge outside of a church setting um was when I was working at the grocery store. I had prayed earlier that week, Lord, I would love to get some sort of word of knowledge in public, like um for the sake of evangelism. And I I was like, I just want that. I and that would be cool. I wasn't thinking about that at the time. I was bagging ice in the back of the uh of the grocery store, and I start walking those bags of ice to the front uh freezer where people could, you know, buy them. And I walk past this hippie looking dude, and this thought comes in my mind, Steven, just out of nowhere. And I'm like, God, is that is that you? Uh I was I wasn't sure, but it was just this out of nowhere thought. I was like, Lord, if that's you, make it so that I can talk to him without it being super awkward. I get called to the front, it's the same guy, two more times, Steven, Steven. So I asked him, I'm like, hey, is your name Steven? He's like, yeah, I don't know how you knew that, but that's my name. And like inwardly, I'm like freaking out, like, what? This is so crazy. Uh but uh outwardly I'm like, this is the perfect opportunity to share the gospel. So I started to share the gospel in a very clumsy and ham-fisted way, unfortunately. Um, I started to argue with him about young earth creationism right after when I was 17 and I had no idea what I was doing. But he Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he came back to the grocery store later looking for the quote magic kid because he needs guidance in his life, and maybe God would speak something to him. And I got to talk to him about Jesus some more. So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Oh, yeah, I I thought it was more than oh, that's awesome on the back end of that. You never know what these like. You you you you talked in in your show notes a little bit about Matthew, uh the parable of the seed and the sower uh being cast across the ground and how that is a bit of a reference. I don't think the passage is directly talking about prophecy per se. Um, you know, I think the account Jesus is probably making sense of the crowds that are following him. Uh he's he's trying to explain to people, hey, you know how there's this giant multitude that's out here that's listening? Well, I'm casting seed everywhere. Some of them are gonna bear fruit, some of them uh are gonna receive with great joy, and but that emotionalism is gonna fade and they're gonna like fizzle out. Others are gonna experience persecution. Uh when I go to the cross, when you know things get rough with the Romans, and they're also gonna fall away. But others, they're gonna they're gonna receive the word on good soil and bear fruit 30, 60, and 100fold. I think he's probably giving commentary on uh the the direct um reception of gospel proclamation, uh, but I think that you have an interesting illustration here uh as to speak of the the word of God a little bit more broadly, to speak of any kind of divine speech. And I think it would be fair to say what Jesus is doing here is divine speech, as that he is God. And I think there might be a kind of a lesson or nugget as it relates to prophecy that I'm I'm seeing here in your show notes. You can kind of walk us through some of that.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Yeah, well, to give credit where it's due, this is from Dallas Willard. He uh he's where I heard this from. And Dallas Willard uh he he essentially talked about the condition of the soils had to do with the condition of people's souls and their receptivity to communication from God. Well, gospel proclamation is communication from God, communication from the Holy Spirit. Sorry, I just hit the hit the microphone. Um, hopefully it didn't blast anybody's ears. So that's the that is what the the it's all about. It and yes, that's the direct application of that parable. That's what Jesus is talking about in context. Dallas Willard, you know, admittedly, it's a bit of a liberty, but I think it is a faithful application of the same principle. He's extending the very the same principle to the to the province of hearing communication from from the Lord. Communication is not just about the uh you know the gospel proclamation. He doesn't just say, hey, get saved. Now I'm never talking to you again. I I don't think that's the purpose. If the Holy Spirit lives within us and he's a relational God, and and all throughout the scriptures, he paints a picture of himself as a God who talks, a God who speaks, a God who has relationship with his people. I just don't think he's changed in any way. And so if that's true of his nature and that's how he is, I think that he would probably speak in similar ways. And the same principle would be true. Our ability to perceive and to receive the truth that the Holy Spirit is revealing to us is dependent upon the condition of our souls, and the condition of our souls is whether or not we are seeking first his kingdom.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Yeah, and I think this makes a lot of sense to me because uh one of the things that I really liked about that parable, I I remember teaching in a church one time uh this parable, and talked about how you your heart could be good and some bear fruit 30, 60, and 100fold, but the the people who bore a hundredfold still had good hearts, and the people who bore 30fold still had good hearts, but God was the one who caused the growth. And if we're connecting this more with like divine speech, uh it makes sense to me that there are gonna be some folks who just hear God a lot, and there's gonna be other folks who hear him, but just maybe not with the same kind of frequency. They both still have good hearts, and I don't want the listener out there who's hearing this going, I just don't hear God speaking to me all the time, instantly think that there's something wrong with their relationship with Jesus. I I think the course corrector is to say, okay, are you pointing true north? Are you pursuing his kingdom? And if so, there should be an expectation that John 10, uh, my my sheep know me and they hear my voice, right? There's this expectation that when God speaks, his sheep will hear and they'll listen and they'll obey. But there is that connection to be pursuing the kingdom that is a prerequisite. So, I mean, it makes a lot of sense to me. I think Dallas Willard is probably onto something here. Um, I I like the connection. Um Miller, haven't heard from you in a little bit, Muddy. I know you're getting uh sucked into the comment section.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Yeah, I'm having some fun there. Um I don't know. I don't have much else to say there. I guess I was wondering um if you were to give us a definition, John Mark, of prophecy itself, what would you use? When it comes to what you're doing out there, when you're practicing this and you're encouraging others to practice this, what are you encouraging them to do?

SPEAKER_01 40:11

Well, I I would probably make a distinction uh between and it's a subtle distinction, but maybe helpful for people because I think the proper definition of prophecy is to speak for God. Um, but and I don't think that's necessarily what I'm doing when I'm doing evangelism. What I'm doing in the an evangelistic context is I'm trying to be sensitive to any leading or discernment that the Holy Spirit might bring. Um, and it becomes a prayer target and it becomes an opportunity for me to to you know share share the gospel. Um and so I was in a uh when I was in Czech Republic again, um I went to this kebab shop that my friend Martina had developed a relationship with the owner of this kebab shop. And it's a um, you know, the guy who owns it, he's Algerian and he's Muslim, and he's married to a Roma wife who's Christian, but when they got married, she wasn't really walking with Jesus. But when my friend Martina started, she went there on the leading of the Lord. There was just sort of a subtle impression that Martina should go into that kebab shop and pray for the woman who is behind the counter. She goes in and she sees a woman behind the counter and she has an impression that she that woman has pain in her feet and that she's been having trouble in her marriage. She walks in and says, I'm here to pray for you. Uh I felt like the Lord wanted me to come in and pray for you because you have pain in your feet and you've been having trouble in your marriage. The woman starts crying. How did you know? Uh, my friend Martina prayed for uh this woman, her name is Christina, and developed a relationship. It wasn't just a drive-by one-off experience. She started going over there when they were closing, helping them close down and using that opportunity to share the gospel. And uh, and so she had been doing this for some time. So when we went just uh in March, we went on a missions trip. I took a team of people from my church, and we went to that very kebab shop. And the owner, um, his name is Ridwan, he he made a whole feast for us, and it was all on the house, and he was honoring his friend Martina and us as we were guests. It was really sweet. Um, and so you know, he's Muslim, he knows I'm Christian, and so I said, Hey, uh, you know, I know we disagree, but can I give you something to think about um as it comes to the Christian perspective? And he says, sure. So I share the gospel in a way that a Muslim can uh receive. I live outside of Dearborn, Michigan, so I get a lot of practice doing this. And um so afterwards, I'm I'm sharing the the gospel with him. Uh Art, my pastor, he'd shared the Islamic dilemma. Like he's like, I'm not asking you to make a decision about this. I want to just put something under your hat for you to just think about. But then after all of that, we share the gospel, we just short share a little bit of polemics, and then I have this impression that he has acid reflux and he has pain in his left side, and he's been fighting with his brother. And I share these things. His wife is shocked, like shocked. And he's like, Yes, all of this is true. And I've been fighting with my brother for four months, and I wanted to make up over Ramadan, and you know, like he just it's not working, and so it's really stressful to me. I said, Well, I want to pray for you about those things. So I I just that's all I did. I just prayed. I went in two days later, and when uh we're sitting there, Christina walks in and she shares with us that after we prayed, Ridwan, all of his acid reflux was totally gone. The acid reflux would wake him up every single morning. He would only get a few hours of sleep and he was totally healed. She had an issue in her in her lower back and in her feet. And um she had no pain after this. And so um they came to the conference that we were doing and they're like, we want to start a home church inside of our inside of our restaurant. He's asking like well if I were to you know what would I how would my family respond if I were to maybe think about becoming Christian and he's like counting the cost of what it would what it would be if you were to become a Christian.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

It was it was just amazing what God did and it was through these gifts of the Spirit through multiple people man this is something that I I'm I'm teaching through the Gospels and as I'm going through the Gospels it's really hard to find a lot of evangelistic accounts that are absent from some kind of demonstration of power. It's hard to read through the book of Acts and not see some kind of healing or prophecy or deliverance that seems to spark the spread of evangelism. Whether it's people's shadows healing folk, whether it's their handkerchiefs, whether it's you know table servers going off to Samaria, they're healing the sick, casting out demons, they're preaching the gospel and many believe um I I think this is a really interesting point that you're you're here introducing people not merely to a story not to a mythology not even trying to convince them necessarily of a historical fact of the resurrection which is by the way a historical fact. You're putting God's voice on display and as you do so his sheep hear his voice right uh those those people who he uh is calling and drawing to himself they see power on display and they go I think this is God and it opens that door it's like hey you know I can I can bring the the the Muslim dilemma and I can give a philosophical argument. And I don't know if you've I I've done I've done evangelism until I'm blue in the face. I did you know homeless ministry went out to Oakland on Saturday nights playing guitar. I didn't play guitar but you know someone plays guitar. People come up hey what are you guys oh we're praying for people uh you know you need prayer for anything I don't oh yeah sure I need prayer for this pray for in Jesus' name and then ask them what they know about Jesus right after you get done praying in Jesus' name right and it just spark these conversations about the gospel and man knowing the presuppositional apologetics and and and knowing the the various dilemmas that we can put into people's laps and hey you know what is a standard of morality is there an object standard or are we all just like social engineering theory well that doesn't that doesn't have a standard of morality you know it's just you have all these various apologetic weapons that you can kind of arm wrestle people into the kingdom and I'll be honest in in the many many years of doing evangelism whether it's door knocking homeless ministry or street ministry uh I have not seen a ton of people come to faith good apologetics same Bible teaching but there's something that happens when you see the sick healed where where where prophecy takes place and people's walls suddenly fall down like the woman at the well you know they're having this theological debate and suddenly Jesus tells her that she's living with her live-in boyfriend and she goes okay I perceive that you're a prophet uh suddenly the the walls and the barriers come crumbling down where they encounter the real living Jesus not a theory and not an argument those arguments are good we need to love God with all of our heart mind soul and strength right like our mind is involved in this uh but man uh the accounts that you're telling me sound a whole lot more like Acts and the gospels than they do like evangelism explosion and no knock on evangelism explosion i'm you know like I'm no no knock on the uh the uh living waters and Ray Comfort and have you ever stolen well then you're a thief you know because God works in the midst of all of that um but man I I I wonder what it would look like if the church could grab hold of this and see the gospel come with demonstration of power which is what the apostles pray for in Acts 4.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Man I anyway I'm stirred up there's not a lot of a whole lot of uh uh questions there just more commentary uh anybody want to pick up where I've left off just crickets good guys good job guys good job I think that means that we're done with this program because nobody wants to add to that okay uh you cut out for me for a second so uh that might that might attribute to the my silence it might have it might not have it looks like Miller froze too okay well I I think this is probably a good place as any to to sign off.

SPEAKER_02 48:36

Anyone got some closing thoughts that we can kind of wrap this program up with Miller I'll start with you and then we'll toss it over to John Mark I actually think not only do I find it difficult to see many people come to Christ without a demonstration of power I find it very difficult to convince people of many of the powerful things that God is doing in scripture without those kind of demonstrations. Whether it be deliverance ministry the gifts of the spirit still being continuing today things that we should pursue. But I am thankful that God does give us these things and I am thankful that this is stuff that he gives it readily especially as we're out there's kingdom. John Mark I love watching you in action I've always thought you were you were really just bold and unapologetic and to represent Christ and faith in these things. So it's always been fun and I'm thankful that you came on the show.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Oh man it's an honor to be with you guys and uh my my closing thoughts are I just want more people to be seeking first the kingdom of heaven. I just want them to seek uh maybe God could use them and I I just want more people proclaiming the gospel and striving to excel in that which builds up the church to uh pursue love and earnestly desire spiritual gifts especially uh that they may prophesy because there's nothing that builds up the church quite like it and I think if we begin to think outside of the you know the the church walls in terms of the application of this gift most of the time that we see this in action it a lot of times in the New Testament it's it's outside of the church you know these gifts are for the uh for confirming the truth of the gospel that Jesus has been raised from the dead that he reigns and his kingdom is at hand and that if they will repent of their sins if they will turn from their ways and they will ask the Lord to come and regenerate them by his Holy Spirit a miracle happens on the inside of them and they are transformed into a new person. And if anyone is in Christ they are a new creation the old is gone all things have become new this is something that can happen for people who who will repent and believe that Christ died on the cross for their sins, that he rose again on the third day that he is seated at the right hand of the Father and that he's returning again for his church. And if they will repent, put their faith in him they will be adopted into the family of God, become part of the church their sins will be forgiven and they will be born again of the Spirit of God. And this is an amazing truth I remember um one time I was I was doing some evangelism and uh I against my own will because I didn't want to be out doing evangelism. I was exhausted and it was just on the calendar and so I had to go do it. And I was showed up at the church praying nobody would show up because I just wanted to go home because I was exhausted. And the um on to my chagrin people came and so we went out and I was like let's just go get ice cream because I was tired and at the ice cream shop the dairy go round in uh um Plymouth Michigan down the road here I walked past this the woman she's short she's got blonde hair the Holy Spirit uh spoke to me just talked to her I started talking to her the Holy Spirit revealed just a few things about what was going on in her life that she had these dizzy spells and a few other things and she's like are you a medium and I'm like no I'm a pastor and I felt like the Lord put you on my heart I prayed for her and I shared just that message that I just shared about being born again being forgiven of sins repenting and believing in Jesus she's so excited she starts jumping up and down yes yes I want Jesus she she's so excited she runs home she tells her boyfriend about all of this he comes to our house church meeting the following Tuesday and he's weeping standing next to the bathtub because there's another guy that I led to the Lord that same that same week I'm baptizing him and this guy his name's Justin he goes you know when I met John Mark I wanted to die and tonight I get my wish and and he's like I'm dying in my old life I'm receiving a new life in Jesus and like everyone's freaking out this guy who's who his girlfriend just heard the gospel for the first time at the dairy go round earlier that week he's standing next to the bathtub weeping as I'm baptizing this dude. It wasn't long before the bathtub was filled and and Robbie gets baptized Robbie and Allie were they were dealing with some uh some stuff from their past I won't you know share their business on the internet here but um Jesus delivered them from all of it and they are they've been holding down a job totally totally redeemed I got to I got to perform their wedding um just shortly after this it was just and they're they're walking with Jesus man their life has been totally transformed from the inside out it's amazing man and they're part of my church so it's not just like one and done see and never type of evangelism like they're part of the church.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

It's amazing come on dude okay well that that's that's your call to action right there um that uh seek the kingdom and these things all the stories that John Mark has will be added unto you no I'm just kidding uh but seriously uh that that's the that's the focus he's just saying hey I pursued Jesus I asked what Jesus's purpose was in this situation and God broke in uh and there's nothing particularly spectacular about john mark we hang out like I I know the guy he he's just a dude uh just a dude and he's not offended by me saying this and at the end of the day you're just people and if you seek first the kingdom God adds these sorts of things to our account so I'm I'm I'm excited I'm excited uh to see what the Lord does and excited to hear the testimonies on Facebook when people start living this way so it's an exciting thing guys thank you so much for tuning into this episode of the remnant radio if you want to hear John Mark talk about the gift of prophecy in greater detail you know what you should do you should register for the remnant conference this week in Houston Texas my marketing manager uh uh Christina uh is gonna be like why didn't you mention that at the top of the show guys uh I forgot so you need to go uh to the remnantradio.com what did I say you can register you can register this week but the conference is not this week it's in October thank you the conference the registration opened this week so there's an early bird uh registration you get the discount if you sign up there on the newsletter uh the link of that newsletter is in the description but you can also find it on the homepage of the roomnetradio.com uh you get a discount for the early bird and uh yeah it's gonna be a great conference it's the first weekend uh in October there in Houston Texas specifically the woodlands it's there at Woods Edge Church if you've been there before it's the same location guys thank you so much for tuning into this program and we'll see you next time hopefully we'll see you there at the conference in Houston uh peace out