Simony, Money, and Ministry: Where Scripture Draws the Line

What is simony? And where do you draw the line? Here at Remnant Radio, we do sell courses and conferences teaching people about the gifts of the spirit. We want to be honest and upfront about that, and it's exactly why we're discussing simony in this episode. We want to examine whether what we do holds up under Scripture. 

ABOUT THIS EPISODE:
The word "simony" comes from Acts 8, when Simon Magus tried to purchase the power of the Holy Spirit and Peter answered him: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money" (Acts 8:20, ESV). That confrontation gave the body of Christ an important category for thinking about money and ministry that we're going to explore.

What did Peter actually condemn, and what didn't he condemn? Scripture is more specific than most people realize, and the early church, as documented in the Didache, wrestled openly with where the line sits between legitimate support for ministry and exploiting the gifts of God for personal gain.

This episode takes a hard look at that line. There are things that should never carry a price tag. Prayer ministry and deliverance ministry are on that list, and we'll walk through why Scripture draws that boundary so clearly. But the conversation doesn't stop there. What about seminary or Bible college? Christian books and music? The Bible itself? 

Join us for a biblical exploration of simony and where Scripture draws the line.

0:00 – Introduction
0:21 – Ethics of Charging for Ministry
8:53 – Scripture on Giving Freely
12:20 – Isaiah 55 and Matthew 10:8
17:47 – Payment for Healing Prayers?
18:55 – Compensation for Itinerant Ministers
23:12 – Honorariums and Speaking Fees
27:18 – Bibles, Seminaries, and Simony
32:03 – Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8
37:37 – Suggested Donations for Deliverance?
51:38 – Didache on Itinerant Prophets
56:02 – Dangers of Full-Time Itinerancy

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. My name is Joshua Lewis, and I'm with Michael Miller over here, and we're gonna be talking about is it ethical to charge for spiritual gifts? It's gonna be an interesting program. You guys stay tuned. Guys, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. In this program, we're talking about money, everybody's favorite thing to talk about. Uh, but uh as we do so, we're doing it primarily uh because people have asked a lot of questions, and rather than just kind of ignore them, it's probably best that we address them head on. Uh, we charge for a conference every year. We charge for our online courses, and there's questions on whether that thing is ethical. And you might watch this video going, uh, well, this is really self-serving, isn't it? Trying to justify the fact that you guys are selling things online. Uh maybe. Uh, but we're trying to give at least the bare minimum our justification for why we think it's an ethical thing to do and why it's not necessarily undermining those kinds of biblical principles. Uh, I think there's a whole lot of discussion today uh about uh, I don't want to say essentially a poverty mindset, but like vows of of uh poverty. That guy that did the religious business, the religion business uh makes the argumentation that we should all live like you know, Catholic nuns and priests who make vows of chastity and poverty. Uh, I don't think that is necessarily the New Testament's response to money uh as it relates to the people of God and uh man, those who are uh spending their life uh working for ministry. So it's gonna be an interesting program. We're gonna touch on all those sorts of things today. Uh, but if you want to stay up to date on all things Remnet Radio, uh, I'd encourage you to sign up for the newsletter. You get updates on content like this. Uh, there's a link for it in the description. Uh, without further ado, Michael Miller, how are you doing over there in Denver, Colorado? You're you're back in Denver, buddy. You've been traveling the world and you're finally back. You were just in uh the country of California, if if memory serves.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

Uh yeah, so I was in, I went to Budapest, got to visit with a couple of our friends out in Budapest, or well, some of the missionaries we sent from our church. And then I was in Germany for about a week, and I was mostly just vacation with the family. And then I was in Barcelona. Um, well, no, not really Barcelona. It's a town called Catalan, uh, which I guess it used to be its own country. I think they'd prefer that they be their own country again, but uh right now they are occupied by Spain. And so um, but flew in and out of Barcelona, and um that was great, man. Did a conference out there on deliverance, saw a number of things happen, saw a lot of other people get, you know, learn how to pray for one another and do those very things. And then yeah, I went to California to attend uh another conference. This was really just for me though, um, wasn't leading anything. I do about two things a year where I don't have to do anything. One of them is I typically go to the Evangelical Theological Society and then this conference with Ken. So that's about it.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Which we need to go back to, we need to go to ETS this year. I I I'll attend. Yeah, we'll we'll make it work. We'll make a we'll we'll make a way. Uh if there's a plan. I just got back from uh Future Quest. It's a youth conference there in uh San Diego. So you and I were there at the same time, even though we didn't hang, unfortunately. Uh but fortunate a lot of cool stuff still happened. Man, it was busy. I I I spoke like six times in uh three days. So uh it was quite yeah, it was quite a bit. So uh and if my voice sounds hoarse, I was telling Miller I just I like to sing and worship with everyone else because the music is loud enough for you don't have to hear me, so I can be loud and uh I'm hoarse.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

That's why missed out, bro. I uh I got to go. Do you know Ryan Bethay from the Exorcist Files?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Yeah, I know Ryan. Oh no, oven.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

I got to yeah, I got to go hang out with him, have dinner, and we went up to his mom works at a at a a vineyard. So I got to go up to a winery and you know, hang out with him, have dinner, and drink some good wine. So it was a good time, man. You missed out.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Yeah, yeah. Well, next time we'll uh we'll talk about humans and wine together, I guess. Okay, uh today we're talking about uh yeah, monies. So uh man, this is uh it's an interesting conversation. It's always difficult to kind of grapple through all of this. And I think uh there are tons and tons of uh right exposures where there are uh wolves. Yeah, there are shepherds who are fleecing the sheep in many accounts. You know, you've got uh the guy who does the religion business. Again, even though I don't necessarily agree with all of his solutions, I think he's identified a whole lot of problems. Uh he's gone through uh, man, uh a lot of the uh accounts of these kind of mega church pastors who are becoming millionaires who are not necessarily independently wealthy uh because of businesses or companies that they've started, uh, but it's entirely off of tithes and offerings from their local church uh that are being leveraged to make these individuals wealthy. They have private jets, you know. There's that Joel Osteen clip where he's like, I don't own a private jet. It's like, yes, but his church owns the private jet and is able to fly around wherever. Uh so it's it creates this kind of lavish style of living uh that ends up taking place. And I don't think any of us here on the program are actually going to be arguing for that. We we see that, we see that as bad. We see that as something that needs to be uh exposed, as something that needs to be um, you know, uh dealt with, I think, within their own local communities. I think the church uh members who are part of that community to hold their leadership to account on those sorts of things uh and need to be uh man rightfully adjudicated because those things are wrong and they need to stop. Um, but there's another question that's a little bit more broad when it comes to uh ministry in general. Uh, what line do we cross from uh, man, the gospel is free, given to all people, to we've crossed a line into commoditizing the gospel? Uh when you have a Bible uh that is printed by uh the, you know, uh Crossway, like the ESB or the New American Standard Bible or the NIV, uh, those are copywritten books that have been uh put together and interpreted by scholars. A committee of scholars put together uh these translations of the Bible. Those translations are copywritten, more often than not, uh, to prevent uh people from distorting the text and citing attribution the wrong way. So the copyright is really important uh just for uh both plagiarism purposes, but then also uh for misciting uh those texts. Uh additionally, those no copywritten books that spend a lot of time and energy from scholars uh are are actually going to be sold. They're gonna be sold by the publisher. Uh, the publisher is going to make money on every single Bible sold. Is that peddling the gospel? Uh when a person goes to seminary to get a formal education, they're learning Greek and Hebrew, they're learning ancient uh, you know, uh languages that are around the uh, you know, Middle Eastern folks and trying to figure out if the Eucharitic and uh if these uh Mesopotamian languages seem to uh affect uh what's going on here in the Hebrew Bible. Uh, when they're doing all of this legwork, it takes, well, first of all, really qualified scholars to do that work and that work to be trained in. Uh you have to pay that scholar to do that because they spent their whole life learning that language or learning that ancient Near Eastern background. So is it appropriate to pay a seminary? You've got things like uh uh, you know, uh online courses, things that we do. You've got conferences. Uh there's, you know, talk about the music industry uh for one. Uh, you know, Bethel Music, you you look at uh what's the other one? Steven Furtick's, you know, crew, I forget the name of these bands. You've got upper room, elevation, elevation, thank you. Uh, all of these organizations are cracking out worship music and they're selling that worship music online. Now nobody's buying albums anymore, but they are using subscriptions like Spotify and iTunes, and all of those individuals are getting cutbacks and getting paid uh from producing Christian kinds of music. Uh so the question kind of circulating around is like, well, where's the line of what is ethical and what is unethical? And we're gonna try to do our best. And again, you might disagree with us here on the program, but this is how we're understanding what the scriptures are saying uh as it relates to a worker being worthy of his hire. Um, okay, Miller, you know, I'm I'm kind of setting up the conversation. Anything you want to add to that?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I mean, no, I think I think I'm interested to talk through the scriptures and actually dive into what does the Bible have to say about what uh as far as our faith goes that you can actually charge for versus what in our faith is to be given freely. Um and I think that really is the crux of the whole conversation. I know that we've gotten a lot of criticism for uh any kind of money we would receive for doing conferences, uh, e-courses, and just the fact that the podcast is it does have advertisements on it. So we get the the remnant radio as an entity does get paid for those advertisements. Um now bear in mind that the remnant radio is also a nonprofit, so any money that comes into it is uh is decided. What is done with it is decided by a board, and usually that it goes to pay our staff. So there's a lot of like good conversations to have, and there's even transparency we can give possibly on the podcast about uh where things go with this entity. But um, yeah, I don't know, Josh. What do you want to start? You want to start with just going through the scriptures and what does the Bible have to say about areas where it is okay to uh what is given free of charge in scripture?

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Yeah, I think so. I I think before maybe I I'll punt it over to you to kind of read some of those passages from Isaiah and Matthew uh talking about what it looks like to bring the gospel and our responsibility to defend that to be given freely. Um I think it's also important that we should not argue from pragmatics alone. Um and I would even say pragmatics really can't be the source of our argument. Uh, if you're gonna say something like, well, if I don't pay a seminary professor, um, well, then that kind of education is not gonna be flowing downstream into the local church community. We're not gonna have as good scholars to do the work. Um, and and because there's a real big benefit to doing this uh this thing where we pay seminaries, we must keep doing it because the good outweighs a violation of scripture. That's just not a good argument, okay? Uh when you have one uh uh I'm doing this really bad thing in order to protect this really good thing, um, we would make maybe a similar comparison where someone is committing adultery on their wife, but we don't want to blow the whistle on it. We don't want to expose the deed that's done in darkness because it might really jeopardize people's faith and confidence because they view this individual as a bastion of holiness and this is a good and righteous man, that might undermine the gospel. No, we can't just say, I'm going to violate the gospel, I'm going to violate the gospel, I'm going to violate the commands of scripture, I'm going to uh ignore what the Bible commands me to do and not do uh because, well, I have I have this idea that pragmatically it's for our benefit and the benefit of the church. We should always obey the scriptures, and I would encourage anyone who's listening to this to live in light of their conscience. Um, but I would encourage you um to be honest with that conscience, because again, if you have a Bible that you've purchased, that is purchasing something, right? That is that is that's commoditizing faith on some level, right? If you would go to a Bible school, you'd go to a seminary, again, that's the same sort of thing. So we've got to figure out where that line is and what the Bible is actually describing when it talks about giving freely when it relates to gospel messaging. Um, I think another thing that's probably worth mentioning for anyone who's out there before we get too deep into the conversation, is that virtually every single teaching we've ever given at a conference or that is in our course, you could essentially find online for free. It's not necessarily systematic, it's not necessarily didactic where it's like we're going to this point, to this point, to this point, to this point, and flowing through all of that. Uh, but we have over 1,200 videos online. Uh, we have been publishing content since 2017, uh, which is nine years of free content uh that people can watch. So uh here's my playbook. Yeah, you can buy our course online and it's really all in one place. You can yeah, walk through systematic theology, you can walk through deliverance uh very, you know, precept upon precept. Totally cool. You can do that. And you support our ministry in doing so. You pay our support staff who help run our conferences, uh, you take care of the day-to-day, helps us schedule our guests. All of those sorts of things take place. Big fan. But if you're out there and you're like, hey, uh, that violates my conscience, I'd go, cool. You've got tons of online free content to pull from. So uh this is not an argumentation for go and buy our conference, go buy our course, as much as it is to say, hey, look, if you're out there and uh it violates your conscience to do so, great. We've got on-ramps for you as well. Uh okay, Miller, uh, take us through some of these passages as it relates to the biblical picture of the gospel to be given freely uh to uh the the lost and dying world.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yeah, sure. So uh well, there's a lot. Are we talking about just specifically the gospel or are we talking about just things that are given freely in scripture?

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Well, I I I mean as I look here, like in Isaiah 51, uh 55, verse 1, you know, it says, Come everyone who thirst, come to the waters, and he who has no money, come buy and eat, come and buy wine uh and milk without money and without price. So here Isaiah is speaking, I believe, of this future gospel, which is like you come and you receive of good the gifts, but but you're not the one who's paying it. You you are purchasing it, but it is a it's a gift that is freely given. Um there's probably a double, there's probably a double meaning there in Isaiah.

SPEAKER_01 12:58

This is talking about you know the day when these people uh get to escape Babylon and how the gospel is going to make its way into the other nations of the earth and how there's gonna be this prosperity that's going all around that Christ has purchased for us. I actually do think it's talking about real things, not just um the eternal salvation, although this would also be included as part of what comes with eternal salvation. That's why I was asking you because I was looking at this going, there's very practical things that are given away for free here. Uh milk, right? Uh wine. So I just I wanted uh because I was looking at the verse, I'm going, well, this isn't just about the gospel being given away freely. But anyway, the point is made.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah, yeah. Uh go ahead. No, no, you go ahead. No, I was just gonna say, like, oh, the most explicit text that is referenced quite a bit is gonna be Matthew 10, 8. Uh heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. And that one's gonna be the one that is uh, I guess, most uh pointed, I think, at things like what we're doing, because we're doing conferences where we're teaching folks to pray for the sick, we're teaching folks to um prophesy, we're teaching folks to cast out demons. Um, and again, more on that in a moment. We're not giving anyone a spiritual gift, we're teaching them what the Bible says about that, and we're asking God um to use us in those things. Uh so there should be a quick clarification there. Um, but but I do think that Matthew 10, verse 8 um should be directed at us. I'm gonna put my cards on the table on the front end. I I don't think it's ethical uh at this point in my life. Room room to be persuaded, but as I understand that text, if someone comes to me and says, hey, man, I'm really sick, I have cancer, would you pray for me that I would be healed? I wouldn't be like, Well, you've got some nice shoes on. Why don't you donate to my ministry? I think that's unethical. I think that's evil. I think that's wrong. I think the same is true of deliverance ministry. If someone comes to me and is like, hey, I'm demonized, I think there's a great uh reason to say, hey, I don't have time. I don't, there's a whole lot going on in my life. I'm I'm pastoring. I'm, you know, let's schedule an appointment, but not like go away until you can pay me money. I think this scripture would clearly be condemning that sort of practice. Someone came asking for a word, asking for a prophetic word, asking me to give them the gift of prophecy, etc. I think this scripture would be condemning that sort of behavior, and I think that it would be uh biblically reprehensible. I think that's wrong. Um okay, so so that's that's Matthew 10, uh, verse 8. Any any kind of additional thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Uh no, not at all. Um, I I do have a question though for you, Josh. Have you ever had somebody offer you money for praying for them and or uh praying for them for deliverance, for healing, deliverance, prophecy, I have.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

No, I've never I've never given a prophetic word you know good enough for someone to want to give me money. Uh uh, but uh I say that tongue in cheek. Uh maybe one day. No, uh no, uh I it's not been a thing. Uh it would make me extremely uncomfortable uh to do so. Um but no, it's not been it's not been offered.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

You yeah, yeah, multiple times.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

You you've got a lot more at bats than I do when it comes to both of those things. I would imagine you maybe you're asking the question from a position of uh of experience.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Well, no, it's happened. I've had people, uh, especially when it comes to prayer and prayer for deliverance specifically, because sometimes I'll pray with somebody for like three hours straight uh as I'm trying to help them get freedom. And you know, they'll they'll think, well, you've given all this time, maybe we should pay you. And I'm like, no, absolutely not. They're like, well, can we give a donation to your ministry? And I say, absolutely no, you may not. I said, I really appreciate the offer, but uh I don't feel uh I don't feel like that's right, and I can't in good conscience receive something because of prayer. I said, if later on, you know, you're enjoying content from the remnant radio uh or you uh are receiving from my church because you're being you're you know coming there and being spiritually fed, then by all means give a donation. But I I I can't I can't accept a donation because we prayed for you. Um so I'm on the same page there, but I definitely have it had it happen. And it's more common in other parts of the world like India, sub-Saharan, Africa, where that is actually kind of normative practice out there. People receive money for those things, and I think it's I think it's wrong. I think it's one of the flaws that's there.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

So yeah, it's a cultural thing. Yeah, that makes sense to me that they would um want that or feel indebted. I mean, you can imagine like the woman with the issue of blood who spent all of her money on physicians, and you imagine if she was like independently wealthy and she touches the hem of Jesus' garment and she is healed, would she not like like again cognitively being like I spent so much money and never got healed? Touch this guy and I'm healed. If I understand in my kind of worldview that I use these monetary resources to achieve healing, and now I finally achieved healing, give that monetary resource to said individual. I understand how that would work in someone's conceptual framework, but but again, Miller's not the one who performed the healing, right? Miller's the you know, the one who prayed, and God is the one who performed said healing. Uh so again, honor, glory, credit goes to him, not to us. And I think that in that a lot of those contexts, when you're overseas, you're probably already getting compensated, right? Like uh oftentimes, and I know that when you do international ministry, they're offered often just like covering your your trip um to get out there. And if you get an honorarium, that's pretty sweet. Um, so I know a lot of times that's not always the case because missions work is different than stuff that we do here locally where churches have this.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yeah, it just depends where I go. Yeah, when I when I've been to certain places outside of the United States, I go with the expectation that I'm probably gonna lose money. Uh in the States, I expect that the there will be a gain in money. Um, but that's also it's just a different situation. Uh you go to places like Peru or you go to places like uh I don't know, Ethiopia. Um, it's just a very different world out there. They can't afford it. And so you have a decision to make on the front end, knowing like this is kind of the expectation when you go to these kind of places. Um but it is interesting how they they will try to pay you for those particular ministries.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Yeah, so I I think that the passage there in Isaiah that we're talking to is uh seems to be echoed here in Revelation 21, 6 and 2017. Let the one who is thirsty come, let the one who desires take the water of life uh without price. Um the grace of God and the gospel uh and the supernatural gifts here that are being seen of taking of good gifts of God is being given freely uh and without price there. Paul makes this argumentation uh that in the same way that the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should make their living by the gospel, and 1 Corinthians 9 14 is a reference that we have made earlier. Uh, you know, Paul makes a couple of uh distinctions uh here in 1 Corinthians where he's like, hey, uh, you know, he's like like quoting Jesus, talking about the the the ox not being muzzled, uh, you know, the the worker is worthy of his hire. Uh and I think that in these contexts, what we have is um an account where ministers are to be compensated. Paul's gonna say a similar thing to Timothy in 1 Timothy 5, 17 through 18. Let the elder who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching, for the scripture says you shall not muzzle out an ox uh muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain, and a laborer deserves his wages. So interesting passage here in 1 Timothy 5, because Paul is quoting Scripture on both accounts. You shouldn't muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain, and a laborer's work is worth his wages. Uh an interesting, significant theological point is Paul is quoting Jesus that a worker is worth his wages in Leviticus, I believe, maybe it's yeah, I think it's Leviticus, uh, and Exodus and Exodus. He's quoting Leviticus where the the the ox is supposed to be cared for uh by the produce that he is gleaning, by the produce he is working for. But um it's if if the the worker here, uh the person who is you know in the temple, if they get to eat off of the sacrifices, if the the ox is being able to eat from the grain that they're producing, should not the laborer then also be one who is able to receive monetary support or food or clothing, etc., from the the work of ministry. Now, I'm talking in the first century. If I go to your church and you pay me with nice shoes, um I'm gonna feel really uncomfortable and you shouldn't do that. Um you don't want to make your uh make your debut on uh preachers with sneakers? Preacher sneakers, dude. I I've been wearing the same pair of boots for the past four years, uh, and they're torn to pieces. Okay. I I drive a uh Ford Flex. The AC is not working super well. So uh I say not working well, it it takes about 20 minutes for it to get cold inside. So no, uh don't don't pay me with shoes. Um I I I need to get my AC fixed. Uh just just being uh that's right. Yeah, pay me an AC. If you got one of those AC charger cans, that'd be great. Um let's uh okay, in in this context, I I think it's appropriate, like you said, you're going to the states, you've got a church that um has resources, has finances, you've come and labored for them. I think Paul is saying biblically, scripturally, that that labor uh deserves some kind of compensation. Jesus is echoing that. That point, Paul makes it in at least two different places. So I think that's good. I have no problem with that. I do think uh there can be a problem with that. You know, uh I worked once upon a time for a well-known television organization, and uh at that time uh there was a very well-known uh preacher um who is quite Pentecostal, and uh he was charging the network uh $50,000 an hour to come and spotlight for them. Uh that is insane. Uh I I don't think I have liberty to talk about that. I don't think I signed an NDA, but I also don't want to get sued. Uh so uh uh that's wild. Um, but it happened. So is that a worker worthy of his wage? We would say no, that's that's not at all what's taking place there. Uh that seems a whole lot more like fleecing the sheep. Here are people who are donating to a ministry, who are paying a ministry uh to go, you know, bring the gospel to the nations. And here comes a guy who wants an hour of his time to be covered uh with what some people would consider a uh full-time and another times part-time salary. That's insane. That's a that's a living wage for some people. Um so no, um not okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Uh okay, well, that that that brings me to another question. So we've just made the case that Paul had the right to ask for support. Um, but we don't see him commanding a particular amount, do we? So, Josh, when you do a speaking engagement, do you say, hey, um, if you're gonna ask me to come speak uh for per session, per hour that I speak, are do you have a priced uh honorarium? Or do you just say, hey, give me an offering? I'll take cover my costs, make sure that I'm not going to the debt to do this and make sure it's it's you know that there's some compensation so that it's justifiable to leave my family for the amount of time that I'm with you guys.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

Yeah, so it just depends on the if I'm gonna be honest, it depends on the size of the church. All right. So if it's uh uh a church that's 300 or more, I'll just say, hey guys, I trust you, you know, uh, I trust that you guys can take care of me. It's not a big deal, you know, whatever you feel compelled to get. Because I I entrust to that in those uh organizations, they're taking care of the people. They have the resources to take care of people. I often go and speak at smaller churches as well. Um, I go speak at a country church and they go, hey man, how much do you charge? And I go, hey, I know this is difficult. I'll tell you what I get paid daily, right? Like here's here's what I get paid working at Remnant, my nine to five. Um and I go, hey, if you can, if you can match that or match that you know better than that, so that I'm because I'm away from my family uh for this amount of time, I'm not with my church. Um, so I I I give them a ballpark of what to uh uh estimate. So it's not costing me to come out and speak. Um, because at the end of the day, uh we have needs in our family, and I can't uh I can't have a net loss, if you will, uh, from going out and speaking every time I preach. Um we need to be able to survive as a family. And speaking is one of the ways that, you know, I'm able to accomplish that. Um and you know, I just went out to Foothills Church out in San Diego and they took care of me. They did a great, you know, and we didn't we didn't discuss uh the finances on the front end, me and Neil with going out and speaking at his church, but the youth guy did, you know, when I came and spoke at the youth conference. They're like, hey, you know, what's typical wage? What kind of the typical rate for you? And I talked through that with him as well uh on the front end. So it just depends on what church I'm going to. If I'm going to a smaller church, I tell him, hey, this is typically what I make a day. I'd like to make more than that because I'm gonna spend time away from my family. But here's the thing we don't want to put you guys under any kind of unnecessary strain. You know, I'll work with you, let me know, that kind of thing. And we we usually just talk it out. Yeah is that what about you?

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Um I have always done what Jack Deere taught me to do. He said, uh just simply have them cover your cost and then take up an offering. And that's what I've done this whole time. And there's been times where it's been incredibly generous, way more than I expected, and times where it was like nothing. So I just I feel like it all kind of evens out. Um, but that's what I've done thus far. I will say I I've been I've done so much that I I'm starting to get tired, and uh I I just being away from my family is getting harder and harder for me. Um so I don't know if it's always you know it's like I want to say yes, and my heart is always to say yes when people ask me to come and speak. Um but I think I'm I'm gonna I I feel maybe maybe I should start evaluating it more about the productivity of the time and less about the financial component of it. I don't really know, man. I haven't had it all figured out. I know that I've never had a set honorarium um and I've just done what Jack told me to do. Yeah. So no, I mean when somebody else is making the decision for you. Jack's gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

It also depends on yeah, yeah. It also depends on like the relationship you have with the staff, you know. Like uh I don't want to put people in a hard position, but also if I'm hanging out with a friend and they're asking me, hey, what do you usually get paid? Like it just depends on those different contexts. Speaking of getting paid nothing, or you know, one time I went out to Miami and preached at a church, and this is what they paid me with. Uh, they paid me uh for those who are listening to the podcast, it's a Skylar Bible, it's a beautiful Bible, it's uh it's an ESV. Uh, but it uh, you know, it doesn't feed your family. So sometimes you get to have conversations on the front end on uh yeah, probably something would be okay because uh if I come home and I just spent time away from my family and nothing to show for it, uh I might I might not be doing this whole traveling and speaking thing very often. Um because it it's a stressor. Um okay, so let's I we've talked a little bit about this, like books, uh seminaries, conferences. Um, you know, I think that uh throughout history, throughout church history, uh these have been things that I think have been pretty well accepted by the church as not commoditizing the the gospel, not selling the gospel uh throughout church history. Uh they understand that paper um you know uh is expensive, um, binding is expensive, publishers are expensive, expensive when the printing press comes on the scene. It's certainly cheaper than paying uh a person to handwrite every single book, um, but um it's still expensive to produce, and those things are have an expectation to be sold so that they can continue producing that content. So you have a Bible uh that's been handwritten by a scribe, you had to pay that scribe from you know essentially the church salary, um, and this guy is writing books and books and books, and he can only get a couple copies out. Um, you know, I don't know how many books a scribe can produce in his life, but let's say you can copy the Bible 20 times. Those are expensive books, right? They have to be treated with a lot of care. Um but now we have the printing press after Gutenberg's uh you know massive invention, and he's able to now produce Bibles and put them in the hands of you know everyone who can read. Now, the idea is that isn't that a good thing? Shouldn't we have Bibles in everybody's hands? And again, not an argument from pragmatism, but the idea is that man, I'm I'm paying the person who produced the copy, I'm paying for the paper, I'm not paying for the message, I'm not paying for the gospel itself. I'm paying for the materials, I'm paying for the expertise, I'm paying for the uh the technical know-how on how to produce that book. That's what you're paying for. It's not the gospel message. Again, even in the early church, uh from the early church all the way to the Gutenberg printing press, uh, you have the opportunity to hear the gospel being proclaimed freely from the church, from the congregation, whether they have a written copy and they're you know sharing it from memory, the oral story, or they're sitting underneath uh the teaching and preaching of a priest or pastor. Um, I would say all of those would um certainly be justifiable uh in the eyes of the early church as they understood the scripture. And that seems to make sense to me. It's not to say that, hey, because it works, we should do it, but they did it because they believed it wasn't a violation of scripture, and I think that's important. Anything you would understand?

SPEAKER_01 29:31

So you're saying you're saying well, I'm just you're saying there that to charge for a Bible wouldn't be wrong. That's actually permissible.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Correct. Yeah, correct. Because I mean, uh today we we live in a digital age, which actually is super convenient, but you can pick up a Bible online, like U version, um, an app, and you can use any translation of the Bible that you want. Um, you know, that's a really cool tool uh that is relatively free. I mean, you still have to purchase phone, you still have to have internet service, you still have to have all these sorts of things. Um, but but it still cost someone to produce that uh even then. Um someone was paid to make the Bible, someone was paid to purchase so like if you're like, hey, I don't think Christians should be you know uh uh selling the gospel at all. Well, every single English Bible translation you use, someone was paid to translate that. And and that should violate your conscience. So I I think everyone has a line here, but it's squishy depending on where we want to lean on it. Um yeah, because you can buy this Bible. I think this Bible is like a $200 Bible, maybe it's like a $300 Bible. It's a really nice, so you know, I think it's goat skin, full yep, you know, it's uh really high quality paper that doesn't bleed through. Uh, but you can also, you know, pick up uh a book at Mardell's that you know you you know if you put one dot on it with a pen, it bleeds through six pages. I mean, you can do that too. Uh that's totally a thing, and you can get you get what you pay for in that regard.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Now we've we've kind of stated our position on the front end, Josh. Both you and I have a hard time uh and actually would condemn the practice of selling your prophetic words or selling your healing prayers or selling your deliverance prayers. Um but we also see that there is a sense in which putting together teachings, the amount of work it takes to do that, that is um that is a labor at that point. That is human uh use of time and their their particular, I don't know, I'm not putting in the right words. Um you're using your own manpower to create that thing that you're putting out there. Um we would recognize that that is, yeah, and hopefully expertise on this on a topic. We would recognize that that is a paid thing to do. Um now, when it comes to those who teach in a church, um there's an expectation of payment to be rendered for teaching in a church, but what that amount is is also going to vary pretty significantly, which we've now stated just by our own itinerant ministries, but even in churches, local churches. Now, then when do you finally draw the line of this is why selling healing prayers is wrong? This is why selling prophecies is wrong, and this is why deliverance prayers or going down the line of the other various spiritual things that we shouldn't sell. Why?

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Um call it Simony for a reason. What's the reason?

SPEAKER_00 32:12

Yeah, yeah. That's going to be in Acts chapter 8 with uh Simon the Sorcerer. Uh, but but let's make that comparison real quick because, like you said, this took time and materials to produce, and the person who produced those uh should be compensated for the work that they've produced in the same way, uh, but more on intellectual property than it is on physical material property. Um, people who've spent time researching and working and building an expertise in a given subject that go out and um exercise that subject matter when they preach and teach should be compensated for that in the same way, again, that you would be compensated for one of these. At least that's how my mind is working here. Now, Simon the sorcerer here in Acts chapter 8, verse 19, sees that the apostles, when they come down from Samaria, uh, come down to Samaria from Jerusalem. Uh, there's a story uh in Acts chapter eight uh with the Philip the Evangelist. He goes down to Samaria, people are getting saved, they get baptized, demons are cast out. It's like this crazy thing. Uh, but something is recorded in Acts eight that's kind of weird. It says that the Holy Spirit had not yet fallen on any of them. So the apostles come down from Jerusalem and they lay their hands on these newly baptized believers who've been baptized by Philip. And it says that uh Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of hands. And Simon was like, hey, I want that power. Like I want to be able to put my hands on people and give them the Holy Spirit too. Now he was formerly a sorcerer, so it makes sense to Miller's point earlier and what the point we made about like the woman with the issue of blood if she was independently wealthy. Uh like it makes sense for someone to go, okay, in my past I spent money to gain power. I used spent money to gain healing. So now I'm gonna use that money to uh to be able to have this power now. I wowed people with my magic before, I'd like to wow them with the power of the spirit now. And and Peter looks at Simon and says, Hey man, may your silver and gold perish with you. Um, what you've done, like it grieves the heart of God. This is wrong. Simon repents. That's great. Um, uh, but nevertheless, um, it shows us that this idea of purchasing uh spiritual goods with money uh is what historically the church has called simony. Uh and this is pretty strongly rebuked all throughout church history. Um, the idea, again, of receiving a prophecy, receiving a healing to purchase the power or gift of the Spirit would be definitionally Simony. Uh, and as we mentioned earlier, it's a direct violation of what Jesus uh commands in Matthew 10, 8. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons, freely received, freely give. So I think that the Simony charge today does, in fact, take place. There are ministries who uh will do deliverance and require you to compensate them. Uh, there are ministers out there who I'll pray for your Fortune 500 company uh if you pay me to do so. Um again, you're looking for a spiritual blessing through monetary gain. Um the the way that we gain spiritual blessing is faith in Christ and trusting in Jesus. And when you begin to commoditize that, I think things get dangerous. It'd be similar to uh the penance, right? Like paying money to get out of uh purgatory quicker, you know. Uh that idea for the living or the dead, again, is using financial gain to uh financial use to gain spiritual uh benefits. And I think the scriptures are pretty explicit about that. Uh the Dadake speaks about this uh pretty explicitly as well, uh, to not receive uh a so-called apostle. Um, if he is using his apostolic gift to uh gain monetary wealth, and the same thing for prophets, if they're prophesying and they want to gain money and resources from that, that you're to reject them as a false prophet. Um so I I think that's a pretty well established uh idea uh both in scripture and throughout history.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

So what you're saying is that the purchase of the Holy Spirit, that that suggestion, even the attempt to buy the Holy Spirit, was what Peter condemned and why it's called Simone. It's literally named after the person who attempted to do this. So he was treating the Holy Spirit no different than he would have magic. Now, Josh, just for sake of argument, do you think he that that he's being condemned by Peter because he's attempting to purchase it, or do you think he's being condemned by Peter because he's treating the Holy Spirit like it's magic?

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Uh probably both. Um I don't think one necessarily uh negates the other um in the idea that uh let's say I have no magic context and I want to purchase the spirit. The spirit is given freely as a gift that comes from faith in Christ. Um so the people of God are, I don't want to say entitled to, um, but that seems right, uh, entitled to partaking in the life of the spirit uh and to uh be viewed uh as one who has purchased that, not with the blood of Calvary, but with one's own good work. Um, because how do you get money but through some kind of labor, some kind of work, um, I think really undermines the core of the gospel. So whether someone has, again, a capitalistic mindset and comes to this and says, I want this, give it to me, I'll pay you, uh, or the person who's got a magical mindset who's like, hey, I've used money to gain power before, and I'm gonna use money now to gain power before. I don't know that the particulars actually matter because it's still using something physical to purchase what Christ has already purchased with his blood. And I think it undermines the gospel.

SPEAKER_01 37:26

Gotcha. That makes sense. That's helpful. I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive either. I just thought it'd be worth asking for the sake of the argument because there's a lot of people out there that might justify it for a number of reasons. But let me also go back to this because I I think that this is this is what I see happen a lot. Um, so I knew somebody who was doing uh they spent their whole time doing inner healing and deliverance prayer. This is they would just have appointments back to back all day long. And so they did not have a fee for doing this, but they would ask for a suggested donation, and it might be like $150 per hour or something like that, something that's the equivalent of like what a counselor would get. Um and it was a suggested donation, but if a person could not pay it, they would still schedule the appointment. It wasn't like the appointment wouldn't be scheduled if the donation didn't come in because you know we uh we both see this where people give a suggested donation, uh, and if they don't get paid, then that that meeting never occurs. I'm talking about ones where the person is literally, that's it, suggested donation. Um, and they're gonna pray with you, they're gonna do some inner healing and deliverance prayer. Um, but this is how they're making, and this is all they spend their time doing. So they're they're living off of the support of those who donate to their ministry, and they expect those who they pray for to give something. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 38:46

I feel uncomfortable by it. I mean let's imagine there was a guy that was out there doing evangelism and he just wanted to do evangelism all day, and he was you know praying for people, leading dozens of people to faith, and once they came to faith, he's like, Could you pay me so that I can keep doing this? Um I understand that there are folks who just want to spend all their time doing deliverance, but I do think that there is a responsibility that the scripture would command us to work quietly with our hands um and to work hard and labor hard. Um I I just don't I feel really uncomfortable by it, I'll be honest. I I understand someone's like, I want to make my whole spend my whole life doing this. Well, maybe you need to be like independently wealthy and make a bunch of money, sell a business, and then live off the proceeds of that. So you can spend the rest of your life just doing deliverance. Um, but I don't I don't see a biblical model for it. You know, Paul can't you can't tell me that Paul wasn't like doing tons of deliverance, that he wasn't spending tons of time discipling people, preaching the gospel, and he still built tents. So I I don't know, man. It feels it feels really uh it's flirting with that line. It's flirting with that line and it makes me uncomfortable. But but to be fair, Paul is working with tents because he doesn't want to burden a church. He actually believes theologically he has the right to be compensated for it. Um I just I just want to make that distinction. Um, it I think if I was going to to someone who spent all their time doing deliverance and they're like, hey, here's my preferred donation, I think I would be filled, I would feel pressured to do that. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Yeah, I I think I would as well. I'm I'm less inclined to say it's wrong, um, because I also know the amount of time it takes. I mean, there some of the stories, like the the story we had of the Austrian couple, he was a lawyer, she was a doctor, and she was uh for all intents and purpose uh cured of endometriosis. My wife and I prayed with her a couple of different sessions, but it was probably three hours worth of praying with her before we finally got whatever spirit it was that caused the endometriosis out of her. Now, I took nothing from it. Um it was this is a labor of love, and and I my church supports me and and pays for my time. Uh and so I I this is one of the ways that I I use my time as a pastor in a church as I pray for people. Um, but in some ways, I'm being paid a salary from my church. I'll do hospital visits, you know, I'll pray for the sick in the hospital. I consider that work time. Um I don't know. I I feel less bothered by that in particular. I don't do that, but I would feel less bothered by it.

SPEAKER_00 41:22

But I think, I mean, again, I think the ideal answer here, and it's probably across the board of all of this. I I think it's extremely impractical on a lot of it, but I think across the board of all of it, I I would say, man, your responsibility would be to disciple people who are doing the stuff, which I know you're doing, right? So that you're not the one spending three hours every single day. It's three hours once a month, and you've got other people spending three hours once a month, and that is multiplying downward. Um, and that's what you're doing with these churches, right? So yeah, it's take all teams with me half the time. Exactly. So, like I understand that there's you know uh a legion of demons out in the world that need to be cast out and kingdom of darkness needs to be pushed back, but I think the the right response is to train internally within your congregation so that that can be done rather than putting all of the onus on one person and and then not being able to make a living because they're spending all their time doing deliverance. I think that probably the same is true that's the same.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

That's kind of our model for ministry, no matter what, is we're always discipling people to do these things. But that's because we also know full well that the harvest is plentiful. The workers are from the laborers review. Um yeah, it's true, man. It really is. It is, it is. Yeah, I would just say that like the amount of time I I spend praying for the sick and praying for the demonized in my own community. I mean, the number of pastors that I have coming through Denver saying, Hey, can can I get some time to pray with you? I I literally won't take online requests. Uh the only people I'll do it with are people from my church or other pastors that need help. But it's it's a lot of labor. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Well, I mean, I was gonna say, like, ideally, I think the same would be true of education. Like, I think uh preferably, um, I think seminaries, if they um shared the wealth, as it were, uh, and instead of having you know your Wayne Grudham and your DA Carson and your NT Wright, you know, all in a single seminary, which they're not all in a single seminary, but um, but you were able to replicate those guys into local churches, I think that would be ideal, uh, certainly. Um, but I also think that what's taking place in seminaries is different, again, than selling the gospel. I don't think anyone goes to seminary and is like, you know, I just don't know that Jesus united me uh to uh you know to himself by faith alone, that I'm you know completely removed from hellfire because of that perfect gift. I don't know any of this. Uh, and I've got to go pay this guy to give me an understanding of that gospel message. No, they're paying for expertise, they're paying for knowledge, they're paying so that they can know that they know that they know, so that they can defend um more carnivorous, carnivorous no more voraciously. Uh I'm my guys, I I got home at like 2 a.m. I'm so tired. My voice is all tourists. Voracious, that's the right word. You're looking at it. If you can tell that I'm like uh I'm all over the place today, that's why. Um So uh I I think that when you look at seminaries, I don't think they're giving the gift of teaching, right? Um, I don't think that that you go to a seminary and they go, Okay, now everybody come forward, I'm gonna lay hands on you, I'm gonna impart the spiritual gift of teaching, or come come to the seminary and I will give you the gospel, and the only way to get the gospel is to come to the seminary and hear me preach. Uh they're not they're not selling the spiritual spiritual salvation, they're not selling uh a spiritual gift. They have homiletics classes where they teach you how to teach. They talk about the Bible, what the Bible says, how to put together a sermon, uh, but it still requires the power of the Holy Spirit to be present upon you in order for you to exercise that gift of teaching. I would arguably, I would argue that's essentially what we're doing at conferences and courses. We're not giving anyone the spiritual gift of prophecy. We're not giving them tongues. We're showing them what the Bible says, and then we're asking God to speak to us. In the same way, when you go to a seminary, you're paying for the institution, the actual housing, the property tax, you're paying for all the professors with the tenure, you're paying for uh, man, the online courses and curriculums and books and all those sorts of things that you're paying for. You're paying for the materials and the goods and the services that accompany that. The same is true of a conference. You know, you've got a worship team, you've got a sanctuary, those things cost money. And I can tell you, as one who's done a couple of conferences, they're freaking expensive. Uh quite a few of the conferences we've done, we've broken even or or lost. We have not been raking in the dough. But we see in the same way that a seminary goes, it's important that someone has the practice and the experience in the seminary that's different than just reading the text. You can go and watch our YouTube videos, but we think that there's something really important for you know a small group leader to hold your hand and say, okay, let's ask God to speak. And okay, that was the Lord, or maybe that wasn't the Lord, or let me help you work through that interpretation process. You got that picture, and they're able to walk you through the experience of it all. I think that's the same thing. Uh, you're paying for the institution, you're paying for the organization and the administration of teaching, you're not necessarily paying for the gospel.

SPEAKER_01 45:58

Um I don't I remember the IR when we well, when we first started doing the conferences and the e-courses, man, the amount of flack in the comment section. Anytime we put an ad on on Facebook for it, uh, somebody would be like, Yes, you're charging for prophecy, way to go, or charging for healing. That's all right. I'd rather go pay a doctor, or you know, you get those kind of comments in the comment section. Um, and the irony to me is I'm sitting here thinking about the price tag we put on our conference, which was I think what 180 bucks max or 160 bucks might have less at the very beginning. Yeah. And then, you know, the next week I see advertisements for the cessationist conference where they charge $300. And I'm sitting here thinking to myself, like, this is uh astounding to me. So you can go pay and hear a theological argument about all the things God is not doing, where guess what you're probably not going to experience? Probably not going to have any healings. You're not going to be taught to pray for the sick as in accordance with the scripture. You're not going to be taught to cast out needed demons in accordance with the scripture. You're going to be taught to do not those things. Um, but they're going to charge $300 for it. And yet we're the ones being accused of uh, you know, basically trying to of as simony of trying to uh fleece the sheep. And uh it is uh I mean it's just wild to me that that's the way there are people out there that interpret it this way. I mean the reason we do this is because we have a mission statement to teach word and spirit and to move the needle on the charismatic giftings in a way that is biblically grounded and and and sort of shows a better way of doing things that that first Corinthians 13 Paul says, and here I show you a better way. Um, you know, that really is our mission. So whether we make money or don't make money as an entity doesn't really matter because we are a nonprofit. The goal is to accomplish the mission, which I think is we're actually doing.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

And all that's pretty transparent, you know, because we're a nonprofit, there's these things called 990s. You can literally look all this up online, it's just a thing. Um, so I can tell you I'm I'm using ballpark numbers because I'm not a numbers guy, and I have someone who runs our conference for us, and I don't have like day-to-day hands-on with all these numbers. Uh, from what I can recall, the uh when we were at Journey Church, we had a 400-member conference because we were just starting off in California. Um, and that was a loss at that conference, if memory serves me right. And then, and again, Christina can correct me on this, and we can we can put it in the comment section or in the notes if we if we got got any of this wrong. I believe it was a loss. Um, then the Journey Church, um, the Journey Church, that was the journey was the first one. The second one in San Diego was foothills, and we we pretty well broke even on that one. Um, and because we had more in attendance, it was a uh larger conference, and we expect the next time we go back to San Diego, it'll be even larger and it'll be profitable, and then we can use those resources to pay staff and use those resources to invest into other projects. Uh, one of these days, I'd love to have a graphic and uh video guy uh so that I can devote myself entirely to reading and teaching uh and not have to do all of the content development rather than all the other stuff pieces. Exactly. So uh anyway, all that to say that uh yeah, baby steps in that direction. The foot, the Woods Edge conference that we do in Houston, Texas, uh is memory serves. Uh virtually every year that one has been profitable. Uh, I think actually from the very beginning, because we've essentially sold that one out. It's got 11 other people uh in the seats at that conference.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Uh and yeah, of course one of the things we I mean we've we've talked about uh asking for donations at the conference and we've steered away from doing it every time. Yep. Um because we I don't know, we have those mixed feelings about it. But at the end of the day, charged for it, right? Yeah. At the end of the day, though, the it is it is accomplishing the goal and it does allow us to do more with the money that comes in, and all of the money is made available online as far as the 990s go, where the money goes. So anyway, yeah, we could go on and on about this, but yeah, but it's just to say that overall good about what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

People do, here's the thing. You know, you said uh people get upset because we do a thing, we do a conference graphic out there, and they're like, Oh, I'm not gonna pay for healing, I'll go to a doctor. Um, here's the thing when you see a graphic that says healing conference price tag, I understand why people assume that you think you're paying for healing, especially if they've never been to one. You have a prophecy conference and there's a price tag on it, why people assume that you're paying for prophecy. That's not what's taking place. In the same way that a seminary is training you to teach a sermon and you're not, they're not giving you the gift of teaching, we're talking to you about how to receive revelation, interpretation, and application, what prophetic ministry looks like in the church, they'd be healthy and biblical and orderly. Um, so I think that that's really important. Um and to your point, yes, dude, I do. I wish I wish those, all those conferences were more profitable. Um, and and would I do more with it? Absolutely. Will we hire uh more staff so we can create more content? Absolutely, I would. Um, would we um man have a conference director who just focuses entirely on directing conferences so that we could do more conferences all throughout the year? Likely. Um, you know, there's all kinds of different things that we could put that those resources into, creating new content, new course material, training people up. Our focus is really just to move the needle on word and spirit. What does it look like to equip people in the church to go out and do the stuff? And anything that we can do to move that forward is what we're trying to do. Uh and again, you're out there, man, I don't I don't like that you charge for any of it. Cool. There's 112, I'm sorry, 1,001, 200 videos online uh where you can watch uh our content for free, where we're giving all this stuff away for free anyway. Uh it's just the in-person kind of training thing that you're paying for. Um Michael, well, you got anything else you want to add to this conversation? I don't want to belabor the point any further. Uh I well, I feel like she's wedding on me.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

So oh no, I think we should talk about what the early church had to say. I mean, the Didic is kind of the uh the thing people pull on to talk about um what did the early church feel about the charging of various things? So um the answer is pretty cool. Uh if you look at the Didic, uh, which just it's called the Didica because it means the teaching of the 12 apostles, right? So these are just the teachings that are being passed down through another document. But in the Didicke 11, 6, it says, when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. So it's talking about those who are sort of itinerant prophets. Uh they were allowed to get their bread taken care of, like their cost covered, in other words, but they weren't allowed to ask for money, uh, not for prophecy. And then it mentions in Didicke 11.12, but whoever shall say in the spirit, give me money or things of that kind, listen not to him. But if he tells you concerning others that are in need that you should give to them, let no one judge him. So uh you do see Paul doing this, taking up an offering for another church. He comes in as an itinerant, he takes up mentions the needs that are taking place, I think in Macedonia, and they take up an offering. Um, so the church of Jerusalem. Oh, maybe that's what it was. I got it backed up.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Yeah, I I think I think it happens more than once. That's what I'm saying. Uh Paul and Bartoles to the church of Jerusalem. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Yeah, so you see it, you see a problem there. Um, I I do think, and maybe we don't have the reference, but Josh, isn't there a line in there about how they're welcome to receive an offering if it's offered, but they're not allowed to ask for money?

SPEAKER_00 53:12

Yes, I think that would actually be the way that I'm interpreting that second one that you read. Uh, if others say, come and this person's in need, let's give to them. Don't judge that person. Um, I I think that uh Dadake 11.6, the verse that you read there, um, it says that they are worthy of compensation, but not to pay them if they demand it. Is what it's it's a bunch of. I can pull up the reference if you need me to.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

No, that's good. I think that's helpful. So it kind of actually it feels in line with what I'm doing with the idea of what you're doing. I don't ask yourself. That's right. You're just kind of like, hey, how do you think about it? Yeah, maybe that's where Jake got it from. I don't know. Check Jack knew some things, uh, a thing or two.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

You know, you've got you've got a lot of people out there, you know, trying to make it in itinerant speaking. Like that's what they want to do with their entire life. They just want to travel and they want to speak. And that, you know, I praise God if that's your thing. I mean, for me, it's it's only a supplemental thing that takes care of my family. Um, you know, I think if Remnant was uh, you know, paying me enough for my wife didn't have to work, um, you know, or my church was doing really, really well, uh, and they were compensating me, then yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't go and travel and speak. Um but like cards on the table. But yeah, I wouldn't, I would uh no, I'd probably do it occasionally because I really say because I I like doing it.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

It's it's yeah, like I genuinely like doing it.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

I think I'm going like nine times this year, though. Like the you know, we've got the San Diego trip, the Houston trip, uh, we've got uh I went back to San Diego. Uh I'm going to uh I went to Jack Coultice's church, going to I went to Tuscaloosa, Alabama in August. Then I've got um you know Shane Holden's uh church up in Wisconsin that we're doing. So I I've got uh I think a total of eight or nine speak engagements. I I don't miss more than eight Sundays at my church because again, my responsibility is to my local body. Um but if I can supplement that income, I think I'm happy to do so. Um that's an easy that's an easy win for me. Um I do it a ton.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

Um probably more for you. I well, and I I'm I'm probably doing more than I want to, and moving forward, I'm probably gonna make some changes. But um as I'm feeling out a lot, especially with a newborn, leave my wife with newborn, it's really not easy. Um, but I I would say that I actually love getting to do it. I love going to other churches, I love equipping people who have never prayed for the sick with any kind of success or prayed for the uh the demonized with any kind of success or been able to identify when demons are there and helping them see that and teaching them how how you know prophecy works and all those things. I I like I really love doing it. Um and I'm thankful my wife is so supportive in me doing that, and it is a way that we supplement the income for our family. Um so I I imagine that I will always do that. One thing Jack also taught me uh was never do full-time I meant uh itinerant. And so I know there are other people that that's what they want to do, but Jack strongly warned against it. And the reason he warned against it was had it had less to do with um the itinerant ministry itself and more to do with the what it does to a person's character. He says, he said, look, I've done itinerant ministry a ton. He's like, but when that's all you do, you never grow. And the reason why is people are always hearing your best messages that you've polished, you've got good punch lines, people, you know, and the gifts are are a wow factor. He's like, but the problem is you need people who are unimpressed by you every week. You need people that are regularly in your life, and the best way to get that is by serving as a local pastor in a community. He said, That's where your your compassion grows, that's where your character grows. Uh, and I think he's right. I I think you need conflict, you need difficulty. And itinerant ministry, by and large, it's not a difficult ministry to do. Um, so I think he said that for my sake, and he said that because he could see the trajectory of my life.

SPEAKER_00 57:05

Um praise because that's super wise. I I 100% agree. I because it is so encouraging, you know, when you know you're you're working real hard to go out to a church and you get to hear all their wins from the last year. Uh you get to uh I'm spending the week in foothills uh with Neil and with Mike and with Jeremy. Like it was a lot of fun connecting with these guys again. Uh uh David's out there. I mean, got to got to spend a lot of time with some guys and have a lot of fun, have some really good theological conversations, joke, laugh, eat good food. It's awesome. It's a lot of fun to do. Um, uh, John quit in Tuscaloosa. Love going out to hang out with that church uh to see their the way that their community does prophetic ministry is a little bit different than the way that I do it, but every single time they're nailed. It's the only church I've ever gone to where they're like, hey, come and talk about prophecy, but also we can do it just as good as you guys can. I'm like, dang it, like this is so cool. And it's edifying and it's encouraging and it's a lot of fun. But again, to your point, if it's if it's always you know catching up with the boys and it's always you know the highlight reel, um, man, I love there's nothing like pastoring in a local church. There's nothing like it in the world. Oh, podcast is fun, studying is.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

It's both good and hard.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Oh, it's it's the best joy of my life, man. Like to see people develop and grow and mature. Uh I you know, I saw a guy in uh Bible study, you know, quote a bunch of scriptures in context and just nail it. And I'm just like, man, you wouldn't have done that two years ago. Like that was that was really impressive, dog. Um, you know, like hanging out with some people who hey, you know, I'm wrestling with this this lie that I've been dealing with, and and because of the tools that we've been given, seeing those things get torn down in their life, um, to be able to walk people through um you know anxiety and depression and see the transformation. Yeah, is it hard? Absolutely. But like to lay your life down for people, uh, to teach, I mean, to teach verse by verse through the Bible, man, it's it's the most oh dude, the growth I get from that is life giving. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

Some of the I mean massive difference from the days I used to serve at the upper room where I had to do topical sermons and teach the values, versus today teaching through books of the Bible like Deuteronomy and Joshua and now judges. Like my understanding of the text has skyrocketed, skyrocketed, not to say that I'm a scholar by any means, but in comparison to what I used to know and understand so much further along. But I'll I'll tell you another great joy of getting to do the pastorate alongside the itinerant part of it is watching the teams that I've taken with me from Reclamation Church overseas, and them get to put in the reps of praying for person after person after person. There are some people in my church, I think, who have gotten better at the deliverance healing ministry than I have. And so it's really fun for them to go there, get the reps in, grow and come back and bring that to our community. And it's a whole lot easier to step out in faith when you're not in your own church with people you have to see every week. Like you getting out of your own context, being forced to do more than you normally would. These are actually really great benefits of having this kind of ministry on the side. So it's one of the most fun things. I'm super thankful.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Yeah, no, it uh we're Michael, you know, we could talk all day about you know, yeah, resources and the money and finances. We should. But but but here's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

But not the resources, I mean the itinerant stuff and the church stuff. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

What the benefits are we're stupid spoiled, dude. Like we have, we absolutely we have, I think what so many pastors would like covet, and I I don't want to take that for granted at all. Like the fact that we have an international ministry on YouTube, um, the fact that we get to care for a local body and get all the benefits of of that, you know, and and then on top of that, get to go and travel and speak. Like, I I can't I can't imagine, you know, like so many scholars, you know, they spend all the time getting PhDs and writing these these tomes, these masterful books, and then like uh a small fraction of people read them because they just don't have the reach. Um, and then on the other side, you've got guys who have you know faithfully served a local community, um, you guys like Tozer and you know AW Pink who like will never know how much they've impacted the world. Um, but they're just faithful guys living in a small town, and like to be able to have all of that, I mean it it is stupid favor, and I'm super thankful for it. And for the people who watch the channel and support us, uh, who let us do this kind of thing, I'm super grateful. Um, because there's a lot of guys who I mean, you you know this, like your your itinerant ministry, it it packs up in a way that it probably wouldn't had had Remnant Radio not been a thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

Um, no, it's been a huge blessing to me, my family, my church. Yeah, uh I feel the audience. I so I was at that Ken Fish thing this last weekend, and the number of people who came up and thanked me for the podcast, and and you could tell they were kind of embarrassed to come up and say they watched the show, and but they wanted it to just say thanks. Um, I I every time I just said thank you, like you have given me a huge gift by watching this show and being part of our community. So yeah, um, it is a gigantic blessing.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

Yeah, I don't take it for granted. It's it's uh it's it's wild, man. Yeah, anyway, uh we'll end the note there, uh saying thank you. Uh it seems like a good place to end the program. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in. I know this is a rather long conversation. We kind of tangent in uh quite a few different places, but we hope that this kind of makes sense of how we see uh money and the gospel, we see money and the gifts of the spirit, how we kind of make sense of why we do what we do. Uh hope that's helpful. Uh if not, uh maybe write us a question in the comment section below. I'd love to address it and try to try to make sense of it to the best of my ability. So I know they're great arguments on both sides. Thank you guys for tuning in, and we'll see you next time.