John Bevere's "Under Cover" | Biblical Authority or Spiritual Abuse?

What happens when submission to God quietly becomes submission to a leader? When questioning your pastor starts getting treated like questioning God?

Those are the questions we're exploring as we review John Bevere's "Under Cover," one of the most widely read books on spiritual authority in the modern charismatic Church. We're holding up the book's conclusions against Hebrews 13, Romans 13, and what Jesus himself said about leaders exercising authority over believers. Does "Under Cover" hold up? Or does it hand pastors an authority the New Testament never actually gives them?

To be clear, we're not arguing against leadership or real spiritual authority rightly stewarded. We're asking where the line sits between genuine biblical submission and spiritual abuse dressed up in biblical language. For a lot of people in the body of Christ right now, that line has gotten blurry, and it's cost them.

0:00 – Introduction
9:57 – Romans 13 and Submission
28:03 – Spheres of Delegated Authority
41:40 – James and Jerusalem Council
59:48 – Submission Versus Obedience
1:18:59 – "Not Being Fed" Excuse
1:31:52 – Discerning Leaders' Decisions
1:39:38 – Exposing Versus Concealing Sin
1:48:28 – Korah's Rebellion Explained
1:55:52 – Ham, Noah, Cover-Up Culture
2:02:33 – Miriam, Aaron, Judgment
2:20:45 – Closing Thoughts and Resources

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Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:38

Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. In today's program, we're talking about John Bever's book, Undercover. It's gonna be an exciting episode. You guys stay tuned. Hey guys, welcome back. Joshua Lewis here. I'm excited to dive into today's program with you. Uh, we're gonna be talking about John Bevere's book Undercover. There's so much that we could have uh addressed. I wrote, oh, well, most of these are quotations from John himself and then just my little commentary, 11 pages on law gospel distinction, where John just confuses the law and the gospel. Um, and I think really is going to condemn a lot of people, that their work is going to be the thing that actually saves them. Uh, the book is prolific with it, unfortunately. Today, we're not even going to be tackling that. We're going to be tackling specifically the leadership dynamics that are a result of this book, uh, kind of walking undercovers, being under the covering of the anointing of the leader that you're submitted to and staying under that covering through submissiveness, no matter what. As long as it's not sin, your life's not in danger, you submit at all cost. And I think that creates some very destructive and unbiblical church patterns that we're going to address in this program. But man, there's so much going on here at Remnant Radio, and I want to keep you guys abreast on all that stuff. So make sure to go to theremnantradio.com and register for the newsletter. And there's a link for it in the description. And when you register for that newsletter, you get updates on conferences and courses and all the discount codes that come with that. One of those updates is going to be our conference that the early bird discount ends August 16th. Here's a quick little promo that you can watch, uh little updates on that conference.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Paul says I resolved to know nothing else among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And in the same breath, he says, I didn't want to rely on my own eloquence, but demonstrations of the Spirit's power. I think there's a way to be spirit-filled and gospel-centered. If our prophetic words are aimed at glorifying Jesus, I want to see prophecy magnifying Jesus and his work and the gospel. That's what I want to see.

SPEAKER_05 2:44

That's gonna be really exciting. We encourage you to come out and hang out with us October 1st through the 3rd there in Houston, Texas, back at Woods Edge Church, and you can get information about conferences, you know, all the different speakers that are coming out to that, what those talks are gonna be on over at the website, theremnantradio.com. And get that early bird discount. Uh, sign up before August 16th, and you will uh be able to receive that discount. Guys, without further ado, uh the man, the myth of the legend, Michael Miller, is with me over in the basement in Denver, Colorado. Michael, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 3:13

I'm good, man. Uh what can I say? I got nothing to complain about. Uh heading to Seattle this weekend, doing a quick conference. And um, man, we got a lot going on. I think the next two months are probably gonna be some of the busiest months I've got. But then um, yeah, I've been able to be home for the last few weeks, which has been great. So I'm uh I don't know how to feel about this upcoming uh episode. I think that I've wanted to do a podcast or or a response video to this book for a long time in response to it. And I was like, I was very impressed by it, super pleased with what they what they did and produced. I agreed with most of it. I just knew that there was more that I wanted to pull into this. So I'm glad that you were up for doing a review of John Vivere's book, and I'll also say on the front side, uh front end of this. There's a lot in this book that I thought was good. Um, and and so I I feel like a lot of what our audience is gonna get is some of our criticism, but it's because of the danger that I see in it uh that that that you're gonna mostly get this criticism. There is good stuff in there, and I I want to sit down the front end. So I'd also one more thing, yeah, John Bevere, if you ever want to have a live conversation about it or even a personal conversation about it, invitation is now there. Um, this is my formal invitation to say to you, I would love to talk to you about this book and some of the problems and dangers I think with it. Um so just know on the front end, we are more than happy to have the conversation.

SPEAKER_05 4:36

Yeah, and I think what's really I think important about that is I don't think you and I think of John Bevere as a tyrant or malicious person. I think we both have heard nothing but positive things about his internal ministry, um, folks that have been around that. And I want to commend him for that, for a guy who's been in ministry as long as he has. And frankly, sat under the kind of leaders he sat under to be so well adjusted, uh, seems like a good thing. Um so uh I think what happens though is if you have teaching that can um it can empower narcissists, it can empower um really heavy-handed leadership, but you're a benevolent dictator. People around you don't actually see um how this is dangerous because all they've witnessed is that this teaching produces like really healthy and and safe spaces in their community. Um I think it's really great when you've taught submission in such a way where your leader uh sacrificially cares and serves the church and they're in this submissive posture, and you're encouraging them to lead, they're looking for direction, and there's like a there's there's probably a healthy dance that takes place in that space. Um so he may very well be a benevolent dictator in that regard. I've served uh in quite a few communities where I would say that was the CEO, one man at the top, but because he was a good and righteous and kind man, it worked out. Uh, unfortunately, that's not always the case. Um and I'm I'm seeing similar stuff here.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

I I can't help but wonder, and this book was written a little while ago. Um, and it's not the only of its kind. There's a number of other books out there that I'd say uh propagate the same kind of value system, uh authority structures, um, and I I would say and enabling abuses. And I I would wonder since having first published this, how much reform he has personally experienced and changed. And so I I hope that there's some change out there. The problem is this book is still on the shelves and it's still influencing a massive number of people. And so um my overall criticism on this is gonna be pretty harsh. And but I but I again, uh John Bevere, if you out there and you happen to hear this, please by all means have a conversation with us. Um I'm gonna try to be as charitable and kind as I can because I actually genuinely believe you to be a very good person. But I think that what you've written is going to be used by others in ways that maybe you didn't even intend, in fact, is already being used by others in ways you might not have intended. Um so I I think there's a lot to look at, and I I would hope that there is some reform under end. I mean, we're always reforming, we're always changing, God is always doing a work in us and changing us. So that's kind of my my uh long front-loaded uh statement on this.

SPEAKER_05 7:15

And I I have a suspicion that John would like out of all the people we've offered, hey, come on and talk to us after we've done a criticism. I actually would expect he might reach out. Uh great place to contact us. Info at therumnantradio.com. John, feel free to reach out and send us an email. Okay. Um we the this book is, I think, probably was it just re recently republished, Michael. I know it was originally published in 2014, and I think it was just republished, um, kind of repackaged and updated recently or more recently. And and the reason I'm I'm I'm bringing this up is that it's probably speaking into a power vacuum situation that we have, where again, leadership right now in the church, folks are concerned. Um, there is a lot of probably what's going on in the church of Ephesus when Paul is writing to First Timothy, uh writing to Timothy in 1 Timothy, and he's saying, Hey, those who desire the position of an elder, they desire a noble task. I think he's probably saying that because there are guys like Hymeneus and Alexander who have been promoting some false doctrine, they've caused some problems in the church, there's been divisions that have been sowed amongst the congregants. And right now, leadership uh has got this stigma attached to it that that's put a negative taste in people's mouths. And I think that's probably what's happening as well. And Paul writes to say, hey, look, godly elders are good, they are to govern, we are to submit to godly elders, uh, and I think that's good and righteous. And I think that right now, in a day where there's all these swirling questions, a lot of people are trying to cling to what does good godly leadership look like? And I think that's why this book has potentially made a resurgence. So uh again, I think uh submission to godly leadership is good. How we're defining submission, I think really, really matters. Um, there are clips of John from back in the day talking, and he's put it in this book as well, about wearing blue socks. If your pastor tells you to wear blue socks, you wear blue socks um because you submit to your leader. Um, I don't think that's the submission the Bible talks about. We're gonna be talking about that a little bit today. But I've I've broken up all of these clips very similar to the way that we've done our Catherine Crick uh video, which is we've taken uh quotes directly out of the book. I put it into an AI program that would read it aloud for me. Uh and then the words will be on the screen so you can follow along with what the book is saying as it is being read. I'm sorry that the uh AI voice doesn't sound a ton like John Bevere. It is a male voice. He has such a distinctive voice, it's really hard to match. Uh anyway, uh, Miller, is there anything you want to add before we dive in, my friend?

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Uh no, just for those of you in the live chat, I apologize on the front end. It's gonna be hard to keep up uh with the chat just because we have so much that we're going through, and because our show notes are so massive. I mean, I think we've got about 30 pages of show notes. Uh I'm gonna be looking back at those show notes during the quoting time. So uh forgive me for not sticking with the uh comments today, but um, it's because we want to do a good job on this show.

SPEAKER_05 10:09

Yeah, 24 pages of what we're gonna address today, and then the confusion of law and gospel, which we probably won't, has an additional 11 pages.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

So we haven't decided where we're gonna do that. If we film a separate Patreon episode about the some of the other uh major, major uh issues here. We'll see.

SPEAKER_05 10:25

Uh, we might do uh a Patreon video pre-release it to Patreon and then release it on the YouTube channel a couple weeks later. That'd be kind of cool. Yeah, that'd be a good idea. Okay, okay, okay. Uh clip numero uno.

SPEAKER_04 10:35

Some may say, I submit to God, but not to man, unless I agree with him. This is where our upbringing and incorrect church thinking can hinder us, but we cannot separate our submission to God's inherent authority from our submission to his delegated authority. All authority originates from him. Here what the scripture admonishes Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authority resist the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. That is from Romans chapter 13, verses 1 and 2. There is so much to think about in this passage, and we will dig through it later. But now I want to just comment on only a few points. First, God appoints all existing rulers. The truth is no one can get into a place of legitimate authority without God's knowledge, and we must settle with this idea in our hearts. The reason it is difficult for many to accept this truth is because they've experienced mean, cruel, harsh, or dishonest authorities. However, we must again examine the above words. We are told all authorities of God, and we are not told all authority is God. There is a huge difference, and we will address this in depth in a second. And those who do bring judgment on themselves. We must remember our father, not a powerful leader, is the one who authored these words, for all scripture is given by inspiration of God, as written in 2 Timothy chapter 3, verse 16. Just because it has been twisted by man, it doesn't mean it was not authored by God. Although they may not be quick to admit it that too many see themselves accountable only to God and not to authorities. At the front end, the pointed display was used to deprive the oxen while plowing. An ox would certainly not resist such a sharp instrument capable of administering a good deal of pain and harm. Hence, in Paul's day, this proverbial expression was used to describe the futility of resistance to superior authority or power. Let's make it more relatable to our day. Let's call the oods nails. It's profoundly unwise and painful to kick against a sharp end of nails. Those who resist the authority of God, whether directly as Paul did, or indirectly to his delegated authority, will find themselves kicking against sharp nails. More often than not, this can be a painful experience and less than too many of us end up learning the hard way as I did.

SPEAKER_05 12:05

Okay, there we go. We got clip numero uno. Uh Miller, you want to take this one?

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Yeah, I'll start with just saying Yeah. Uh on the front end, he cla he he conflates two areas, one being uh leadership that you have over you in a church or in government with uh leadership of God or the authority of God. Um and that that is super problematic. Um and and the reason I've I say this is because oftentimes throughout the Old Testament, I I've said what's make what makes people incredibly uh deceptive, who are false prophets and false teachers, is that they usually demonstrate some sort of real power. And you'll think to question them is no different than questioning God. And in this way they subvert God's leadership in your life with their own. Well, he just does that right out of the gate. He flat out tells you that that the leadership in your life is God's leadership. Um and I would just patently disagree with that. I don't always think that that is true. Uh, to the degree that they are serving God and godly uh may very well be God's leadership in your life, but to the degree that they are not, is not God's leadership in your life. And so when he says, Um, God put this authority over your life, some of them may be godly, some of them may not be, I'd go, well, hold on. If they're not godly, there's a problem with that, especially if what they're encouraging, uh uh how do I say this? If they're encouraging things that are not godly for you to do. Um, so and he'll get into this later, and he'll even say that you shouldn't or the times when you should disobey that leadership is when they're commanding you to sin. But I'd actually say there's more reasons than just that. Um so that's that's kind of right on the front end. I think this conflation is very dangerous because it's not just that you disobeying them would be disobeying God, but even questioning them is questioning God. Nobody wants to question God. Um, but I do actually think we're supposed to question our leaders, but he'll turn against that and he'll show you that that's not okay. Uh and I'll disagree with him on that.

SPEAKER_05 14:08

Sorry, I I cut too soon. No, no, go for it. You're good, you're good. That's that's actually my problem with this uh citation. Uh, because I will acknowledge that God puts ungodly leaders, especially in places of government, where those governmental leaders are ruling over a nation as God's justice and his judgment over that nation, i.e. Babylon, i.e. Syria, so forth and so on throughout the scriptures. That definitely happens. Um so I I have no problem looking at uh the US, I have no problem looking at Europe, UK, looking at you know, uh places in Africa and South America, and looking at those individual countries and saying, look, you know, maybe you have a tyrannical leader and this is just the judgment of God, and saying it's possible that it is the judgment of God because God establishes those governments. Um and maybe it's God's judgment, maybe it's purification, maybe it's pyramid, sanctification. I don't know the purpose, um, but I do acknowledge that leader has been placed there by God. Uh how, however, I don't think we have that same kind of correlation from the uh state to the church, and this is something we're gonna see conflated more in the next passage, that passages about like Romans 13 are being directly transcribed and applied onto the church, and that's a real problem. Uh he says uh this is where um your your upbringing uh comes in and it'll cause you to like misunderstand the scriptures. Uh here he is referring to what we'll see in lots of clips, and he says in his book that, you know, we have this very rich view of democracy because we're here in the West. And I would argue that here in America we are actually a republic and not a democracy. But then I'll also argue that that republic is established from biblical principles. He'll say that our governmental system uh affects the way that we see authority, because in our governmental system, we vote on who gets in positions of power, where in God's kingdom we live in a theocracy. God is in charge and what he says goes, and there's this direct kind of utilitarian, authoritarian sort of leadership model. And I would agree, yes, as that relates to God, but when you look at the church and even our government, our government was set up through inspiration of what we're seeing in Scripture, that we are to submit to one another, that deacons are to be elected from amongst the members of the church in the book of Acts, that the body of Christ is to purge immoral leaders when they get out of line. And we've actually set up our government to reflect the biblical standard, uh, which is membership, accountability, mutual submission, checks and balances as it relates to those sorts of things, personal nomination. Those kinds of things didn't just come up out of thin air. It was actually instilled through uh biblical inspiration and Christian worldview. So I don't agree with the idea that Western individuals who are hanging out in democratic or republic sorts of societies are therefore misrepresenting or misunderstanding the authority structure of Scripture. I actually argue it's the other way around, that maybe we we understand the kind of biblical system. Now, if you've watched Remnant Radio for a while, you'll hear me have talking about the Revolutionary War, and I'm gonna upset people right on out the gate here. I do think that was biblically impermissible for a bunch of Christians to rally together and overthrow, you know, colonial rule because that is rebelling against the state. There is explicit commands not to do that in Romans 13. That's not anti-American. I love America. I'd rather be here than any other nation in the world. I think it's the greatest nation. I'd rather be here, but I also say we are the whore of Babylon. We're exporting sexual immorality. We're we're you know committing abortions at record rates.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Oh, we're exporting to the church, our ecclesiology. Like the United States, American Christian charismatic leaders have some of the biggest influence overseas than anybody. Um, like I'm ashamed. I I feel like I go to these churches in Europe, especially Germany, and have to apologize constantly for the exportation of our uh Christian failed ecclesiology and failed leadership. Sorry, I interrupted you, Josh.

SPEAKER_05 18:10

Yeah, word of faith, all the across. I mean, yeah, yeah, we've we've definitely and I think as a Christian, uh all throughout the Bible, if if authority, which is what he's saying, is is submissive and never speaking out against, then why did Paul go to Rome? Like why did Paul appeal to go to Caesar and to proclaim the gospel? Why did he proclaim the gospel to Felix and command him to repent? Um, that's calling your leaders. The kind of vision of submission that he's going to be talking about the rest of this book is kind of a sit-down, shut up if you disagree. And yet all throughout the scriptures, the church is the conscience of the state. So in the same way that I would say that you have a responsibility to appeal to your leaders when they're in error in the church, I'm also going to argue that there's a responsibility to do that to the state. And in the same way that I'm not going to pull the sword and fight the state, I'm not going to pull a sword and murder someone in the church. Um, will I, through conscience and appeals of scripture and reason, um, you know, make my case in charge when there's ungodly re leaders reigning in the church? Yes and amen. I think that's biblical. Miller, I I've monologued for long enough.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

No, you did great. Um later on in the book, he's gonna mention, though, just a little pushback here, Josh, and you'll understand why. Um, he will mention how John the Baptist does stand up to the state, that he stands up to Herod for for um the woman that he ends up being with, and John the Baptist gets beheaded for it, obviously. And he'll say, look, hey, what John the Baptist did was good. The problem is, I don't think he understands that he contradicts himself multiple times in this book, where you where those lines get so blurred you're not really sure when you stand up to the state, because he'll also say, Yeah, but you can't do it from an attitude of self-righteousness. Well, how how do you know when you have that attitude? Uh he he seems to think that just by offering a criticism, you automatically have that attitude. And he'll say it later on when you criticize your leaders, you have no fear of the Lord. And so this is where it gets really, really muddied. Now, in this particular section, he talks about authority and how uh authority by the state is authority given by God, and therefore you have to obey the authority of the state, and uh, and that would be submission to God. But the problem is he doesn't really tell you how authority is determined. So if you think about the the rebellion that Absalom had with David, now David was the anointed king, no doubt, right? We see that God sent Samuel and anointed David king, but later on, Absalom sort of looks like king. And so is submission to Absalom in that time submission to God? Like who are you supposed to obey when there's a rebellion and a whole another government set up, or when Israel split uh down you know, two southern tribes and the ten northern tribes? Like, well, which government are you supposed to submit to in those situations? And there's just not much clarity here. Um it actually creates more confusion, uh in my opinion. Uh Josh, you have any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_05 21:01

Well, that's right, because uh Jerhoboam, Rehoboam split the southern and northern kingdoms. You've got the accounts with David and Absalom, which I think is a very good reference. Um and if he's gonna argue that all positions of authority are set there by God, then when Absalon became king, he was an authority established by God. You you might say it's because of judgment. I I'm inclined to think that it was judgment over David for his former sins. Um but but who am I supposed to submit to, David or Absalom? When there's a civil war in America, the North and the South fight, um, and I'm talking about the past, not the future, uh, for YouTube who might you know freak out by that statement. I go, hey, look, um, who am I supposed to submit to in that encounter? When my local church splits because of someone claiming that the leader is uh inappropriate and moral ungodly, um, is that a good and right just split? Because I think there are such things as good and godly church splits. Uh you know, you paint the world's worst situation where, you know, this is an adulterer, he's, you know, a liar, he's a fornicator, he's stealing a bunch of money, you know, like you you just go down the list and he checks all the boxes, but he because he has a smooth tongue, is able to able to flatter ears, um, is able to deceive people, and he's got a large group that's following him, does he have authority? You know, like you you the church then splits and it's like, do I have to submit to the former leader? Do I do I stay with the existing one who's standing up for truth? Like authority is not really defined. If authority is purely defined by might makes right, I I think that is a wholly unsatisfactory definition of authority from Scripture. Because you sit on the throne of power, that means any any usurping. Of authority. Any elders who've taken over a righteous elder's job and, you know, they they outed him from the church and they kind of took over. Does that mean that they are the authority now? Because they sit in the position of power? And it can't be influence, right? You can't just mean that people are listening to you, therefore you have authority. Because then a 14-year-old boy with a podcast then has authority because he's reaching millions of people from the comfort of his living room couch. So I just don't think he is, he hasn't done justice to defining his terms. So that when we get into, and again, some of you are going to think we're quibbling over things, as we get into this, you're going to see that he's going to say that there's essentially no room to uh reject authority or to not submit to authority unless that authority is commanding you to sin, or that authority is uh, you know, uh uh was commanding you to sin, or you're in danger for your life. Over and over in this book, what you're gonna see is well, there was a time where this guy was, you know, committing fraudulent activity and he was doing evil things against the church, and God told me not to respond, and I didn't, and and God figured it out, and he was my defender. And it's like that's not what the Bible tells us to do. And I don't think that was the spirit speaking to you because it's expressly telling you to do things the Bible doesn't say.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

I I think it's also important to remember uh John Bevere's background, right? He started off in engineering, he wasn't like formally trained in any kind of seminary, he he he wasn't taught any kind of uh hermeneutic when it comes to interpretation of scripture, which you're going to see some of that. And I don't mean to be insulting here, but when when Josh says that he doesn't define his terms well, it really matters because what he's gonna do, like an engineer would, or like any mathematics teacher, is he's gonna build precept upon precept, right? He's scaffolding here. He gives you this base level information and then he builds upon those concepts. But the problem is, is the foundational definitions of these terms that he's building upon are not clearly defined and/or they're wrong. Um, he doesn't know the difference between when a word is used in this context, it means this, versus when a word is used in that context, it means this. Like the word running is defined in our uh language based on the words around it. So, like I could say a song was running in my mind all day long. That means something very different from the physical activity I did this morning when I went running to get some exercise. Same word, different context, very, very different meanings. And so uh you're gonna find that throughout this, especially when it comes to terms like slander, when it comes to terms like submission, when it comes to terms like honor. Um, those terms aren't well defined and they're not nuanced for context. They're basically one definition given to every single time those terms are used. And that again, I it just becomes so, so problematic. And my end result, and I'm I'm giving you guys the the the end conclusion at the very beginning, but I want you to see it as we go through this. The end result is what this does is it enables toxic, abusive, sinful leaders to be in their positions without any accountability. Um that that's what it really results in. And so um, and also I just shout out to Stephen Kozar. Thank you for for giving us a commendation on on talking about this. Please share it with us uh with others. We're we're hoping that this makes the rounds and even gets to John uh his ears. Because I I really do have hope for him to change at least this.

SPEAKER_05 25:57

So yeah. No, I think okay, a couple things here. Um, well, at least two two more that I want to bring up. One is extremely petty. Um, Saul's name wasn't changed from Saul to Paul, it's just Greek Hebrew. Like I everybody makes that mistake. It's a pet peeve, and if we keep repeating it, people are gonna believe it's true. If I go to Mexico, my name is gonna be Hoshway, okay, but it's still Josh. Okay, um, so uh Paul is told here not to kick against the goads. What is that referencing? Uh it is referencing an account where Paul is persecuting the church, and what he's doing is essentially kicking against the authority of Christ. Now, John is gonna make that case to say, well, we can't then kick against any of God's subsequent authorities. If if God's at top and he has established these other authorities, if we kick against any of those authorities, we are therefore kicking against God himself.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Um the problem go ahead contradicts what Paul, well, it contradicts what Paul will later do, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_05 26:51

That's right. That's right. Yeah, yeah. Uh so uh Paul is gonna go to uh uh in the book of Galatia, he's going to uh uh uh oppose Peter to his face and rebuke him openly before all. Um he is going to speak in Galatians chapter two about how those who seemed influential kind of received our gospel message, whether they were influential or not, didn't really matter to me. The kind of submission that John is talking about, uh Bevere, uh the kind of honor he's speaking about, Paul does not seem to exercise. Um and then Paul goes on in the book of Galatians in chapter one, he says, if we or another uh messenger comes to you, we or an angel from God comes to you, or he doesn't say from God, because the angel wouldn't be from God. If we or an angel of light comes and proclaims another gospel, let him be a curse, let him be anathema, damned for destruction. So again, if God has set up this leader and that leader goes haywire, um again, damned for destruction, Paul is saying, look, the position matters not, it's that we're submitted to Christ, and this is gonna be uh a recurring problem. And I don't want I don't want to get to answering things that we're gonna get in other clips, so I'm gonna I'm gonna refrain. I'll let you you continue, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Well, it's just a bit ironic, right? Because he's a Protestant. Um, and if you know anything about Protestantism, it was a protesting of the authority of the Pope. Uh it was the pre protesting of the authority of the magisterium saying that our authority should be found in what the scriptures say, not a particular leader. Um, it's why we have things called the solas. Um, so there is it it it it it is a failure to recognize his own tradition um on some level as well. And again, I I hope I'm not being pedantic and overly critical here, but but there that that's such a big irony. Uh it makes me want to protest all over again, which is kind of what we're doing in this show. So that's right. Let's go to the next clip. Sorry. Next clip sounds good.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

First, who are these governing authorities? In this specific text, Paul referred to civil or governmental authorities. However, these words of exhortation apply not only to governmental leaders, but also encompass other areas of delegated authority. What we glean from this text should be applied to all areas of delegated authority. The New Testament speaks of four distinct divisions of delegated authority, civil authority, church authority, family authority, and social authority. In the category of social authority, I include employers, teachers, and bosses. The New Testament gives specific guidelines for each area. However, in most cases, the council spans the borders and extends to all areas of delegated authority. Notice the opening line, let every soul. No one is exempt. So implant this.

SPEAKER_05 29:08

I I'd let the record show.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Well, he does speak to uh slavery. I mean, Onesimus, that whole story. I mean, that's sort of a social structure, right? Well, it's not governed by the state necessarily. Well, maybe it is, actually. Yeah, that's true. So the social side of it would just be incorporated in the state. I think either way. Yeah, we'll continue.

SPEAKER_04 29:41

In your mind, it's a command, not a suggestion. The Lord does not give hints or recommendations. Paul continued. Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. The Greek word translated as subject is huko tasso. It is a Greek military term meaning to arrange troop divisions in a military fashion under the command of a leader. In non-military usage, it meant a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden. This definition comes from Bayer's Greek dictionary. Simply put, this word as used in this verse exhorts us to voluntarily place ourselves in submission to authorities with the full intent of obeying them. Every soul is to be subject to authorities, because God has appointed all governing authorities in our lives. The origin of all authority goes back to God. There is no exception. In fact, the English word appointed in this verse is translated from the Greek word tasso or pronounced tasso. It means to assign, ordain, or set. In no way does this word carry the implication that something happened by chance. It describes a direct appointment. Since God has appointed all authorities, we reject the authority behind them when we dishonor them, or refuse to submit to them. Whether we know it or not, we resist the ordinance or rule of God. When we oppose God's delegated authority, we oppose God himself. When we as Christians have contact with authorities, we must see beyond personality or behavior and honor the position. We obey men in authority, because God's authority is upon them. Whether or not we are drawn to their personality or style of leadership, and whether or not we think they should occupy the position, we honor them. Too often believers profess submission to God but neglect submission to delegated authority. They are deceived. If we learn how to obey God, we will have no trouble recognizing God's authority upon another person. Are there times when we must choose between God's direct authority and his delegated authority? Yes. But this does not happen as often as most believers think. There is only one exception, which we will cover at length in a later chapter. However, the issue here is that many Christians think obedience is the exception and personal freedom of choice is the rule. The following type of reasoning can lead us into a course of destruction. The consequences, as we saw in earlier chapters, are severe. Not only does it place us under the judgment of God, but it grants legal access to demonic powers. If we want to remain obedient to God and blessed, we have only one choice when it comes to delegated authority submission and obedience. Therefore, we are instructed that all authority is appointed by God, and we are to respond by respecting the position and submitting to it. Often at this point, the walls go up in people's minds. Again, recall that Paul wrote that all authority is from God. He did not state that all authority is godly. The authority is from God. The behavior may not be.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Miller, would you like to start first? Uh yeah, I'm gonna start with uh on the plus side here. I do believe that authority matters and submission to authority is actually important and good. Um I do think that you know kids should uh respond to the authority of their parents. I think we should respond to the authority of Scripture. Uh I think members should respond to the authority of deacons and elders, and vice versa. Uh members have authority as well, which means deacons and elders also have to respond to that. Um I think there is a lot of conflation here, but but I do like that he is pointing out that authority matters, and by and large, obeying authority is a good and right thing. Police officer pulls me over, by and large, I'm going to obey that police officer, and that's a good thing. And I'm gonna honor the police officer for doing the job he does by putting his life on the line regularly to keep my streets safe. Um, so I I think there's a lot of good to be said about this book overall when it comes to um authority in a general sense. Josh. Uh you're you're I can't hear you.

SPEAKER_05 32:33

I said you're more charitable than I. Uh well done.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

I'm trying, I'm trying to be kind and charitable in the front.

SPEAKER_05 32:39

Very good. I appreciate that. Uh so here's here's the thing. Let's say I'm out on the streets in Oklahoma City and I'm on the corner with the abolitionist guys, which I'd love to do one day. Um they I've talked to them a little bit, but let's say I'm out in the corner, uh, I'm talking about abortion, why it's wrong, then a police officer comes up to me and it's a public space. I've looked, it's public easement, I've I've checked out uh with local government codes that I have permission to protest in that space. And they come and they tell me, hey, um, you're not allowed to protest here without a permit. Um I'm gonna honor his position, I'm gonna be kind to him, but I'm also not gonna bow to a tyrant because he only has authority from the state, and the state has not given him that authority. He cannot just exercise it in any way that he wants. Now, I don't think most police officers are like that. I think, like you said, most of the time police officers are going to try to adhere to the law and to the best of their ability. Maybe this officer is just, you know, uh uninformed on the law, and he's not a tyrant. I'm just gonna show him, hey, look, here's the code, here's the public easement, I've I'm well within my rights to do this. I'm gonna be kind and gentle with the guy. But I've seen video after video where there are individuals who are not integrists and they are tyrants and they are tyrannical, but I don't think the biblical response in that situation is to just bow to any kind of claim of authority. Uh, we have to recognize the scope of that authority. And that's important. Um, because again, I think there is a scope in the same way there's a scope to police officers' authority. They can't say, hey, Mr. Lewis, come out of your home or I'm gonna search your home. And I go, well, do you have a warrant? And they go, No, we don't. I'm gonna say, kick rocks, my guy. Respectfully I'll say it, but I'll be like, hey, you know. You're not gonna say kick rocks, in other words. I'm gonna go say, hey, look, man, go. I love you so much, but you go you go talk to a judge and we'll get, you know, we'll we'll talk about uh searches of my home. Um so so scope matters when it comes to authority, and I think the same is true of the church. So, you know, Paul does this very thing. He appeals to Felix. I am a Roman citizen. You you can't do this to me. Uh you you can't you can't stone me, you can't flock me. I'm a Roman citizen. He appeals to the scope of authority that a person has. He doesn't just humbly submit to it. So I think that that's important for us. Paul does it, we should do it too. And if it's true of the church, if it's true of the state, it is also true of the church. Here he quotes Romans 13, and he quotes it in full. Um, and he makes this statement that I, again, I don't have in my notes. Um, but he says, Since God has appointed all authorities, we refuse the authority behind them if we dishonor or refuse to submit to them. So if I were if if all authority has been placed there by God and I refuse to submit to them, then I'm dishonoring God by not honoring and submitting to this authority. Whether we know it or not, we resist the the uh or ordinance or rule of God when we oppose God's delegated authority, we oppose God Himself. Very explicit statement. But I almost ask the reader, what about Hymeneus in Alexander? What about in Acts 20, when Paul says, um, or is it Acts 21, Paul says, uh, to the elders, he has them come to Miletus and meet him there because he doesn't want to go to Ephesus. And he says, Hey, from among you, from among the elders, wolves are gonna come in and spy out on the sheep, and they're going to consume them. And he says, Be watchful over yourselves, be watchful over the the flock of God. Um, that's interesting. Well, should we be submitted to that kind of authoritarian leadership or divisive leadership? You know, you're gonna make the point. He's gonna say we shouldn't submit to people who are gonna command us to sin. But again, we have an example of like a Benny Hen who would say all kinds of unbiblical things I don't think we should submit to.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

I mean, well, so he's gonna tell you later on, he he already puts the exception, he bakes it into that quote, right? He says, There is one exception, and that one exception for him is the command to commit sin. And I go, well no, there's a lot of other exceptions outside of just the command from an authority figure to commit a sin. There's a command we have in scripture to expose leaders when they're in sin. There's a command we have in scripture to expose leaders when they're in doctrinal error. There's also a uh a command to not commit a sin of omission, a failure to act, um, which is actually what he's going to endorse. He is quite literally going to encourage us later on in these other quotes to commit a sin of omission. I don't think he realizes that he's doing that, though. Um again, this is what's so problematic. He never his his explanation of the scope of authority that a leader has over someone under them is all things except sin. That's the scope of authority they have. Uh, he doesn't differentiate between like a church leader having, I don't know how to say this, it's almost as if he conflates all of these different positions of having carp launch leadership over us and authority to tell us what to do, with the exception of telling us to sin. And that is his one exception, even in this chapter. Um, but he'll he'll he'll give more definition to the command to sin being the thing that we can then disobey later on. Uh just sort of foreshadowing that now.

SPEAKER_05 37:56

I'm gonna drill down into a biblical example here because he's gonna say, okay, if we resist, we're resisting God. But again, I think there are scriptures that command us to resist. So, you know, Titus, as for the person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing to do with him again. We're gonna pick up that verse in a moment. I I paraphrased, I didn't read the full verse, but we'll, you know, verse 11. Now I'm gonna read Romans 16, 17 through 18, something I'll read in a moment again. But he says, I appeal to you brothers to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine you've been taught. So that does not only mean doctrinal obstacles, but again, if if I'm commanding people to do things just to submit to my authority, hey, every Wednesday, you guys need to bring me a sandwich. Every single one of you, bring me a sandwich. If I say, hey, all of you need to give see sow a seed of $3,000 on Sunday, you must do this. Um, because I say so, go sell your cars, go whatever you got to do. I we need $3,000 from every single person here. Is that sin? Right? Is it is um am I telling you to commit a sin to sell something and give it to the church? It's not explicitly sin. Um am I sinning by saying that? Probably, but but you're not in sin by selling and giving that to the church. Must I submit to that? I I don't think we have the authority to do that. I think that what that is is an unbiblical obstacle, a requirement that is added onto the people of God. Maybe it's not for justification, maybe it's not for salvation, but it is for honoring God. And again, that is an unnecessary burden that we're placing upon the believer that the text is not.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Well, let's let's let's make that a little bit more difficult here. Let's say that I can't pay my rent and provide shelter for my home if I bring about that gift that you told me I'm supposed to sew into the church or to your ministry. Um I so I think this is the problem, is he's not including within uh his definition of submission to authority what the scope of each of those spheres of authority, uh scopes of each of those spheres of authority uh are or is. Uh what's the right verb there? Um, that scope really matters. And when you don't specify what that scope is, it leaves people really confused. Like I have to do whatever they say, or I'm gonna disobey God unless they're telling me to commit some sort of sexual sin. Um, dude, this is going to cause people to misprioritize their families, misprioritor, misprioritize other things that God also commands us to do in scripture. Um, and so there is no sort of hierarchy of authority. Uh well, he gives one, but not one that you actually find in scripture, uh, uh, which I'm gonna save for later. Sorry, Josh.

SPEAKER_05 40:31

I'll quote, I'll quote John MacArthur on this, um, which is not someone I quote a ton. That's a rarity. Right. He's right. When he's right, he's right. Um, you know, he would say that I have no authority over a believer that the scriptures don't explicitly command. So why would the Bible say your leaders and obey them? Right? Uh John Bevere assumes the opposite. That's right. Uh John Bevere, yes, assumes the opposite. I was I was quoting John MacArthur and I was getting them confused just now. Um, yes, so John John MacArthur would say, look, why does the Bible tell you to submit to your leaders? It's because your leaders have studied the scriptures and they're gonna tell you idolatry's wrong. You should submit to them. Uh that your leader's gonna tell you um not to commit adultery, you should submit to them. So why are you submitting to them? Well, because they're there to lead and guide you into righteousness. If they're commanding you to do something or believe something that is contrary to what is in scripture, you have no obligation to submit to them any more than I have the obligation to submit to a police officer who wants to search my home without a warrant. There is a scope of authority, and and and no pastor has any authority over anyone's life outside of what is explicitly commanded in Scripture. So I can't just say, hey, come and give $3,000 to the church. Maybe I'm manipulating them, maybe I'm committing sin, but they're not committing sin by doing this. And John says the only time that we don't submit to authority is if we commit sin, uh, the individual who is being called to do something by their leader. So I I would say this is too shallow of a definition. It gets really dangerous, and I don't I don't think he realizes the implication. Um, I don't I don't know. Uh let's you know clip three? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

The Lord allowed me to vent it all out. Then said, John, when I brought you to this church to serve this man, I made you an extension of the ministry I trusted to him. I called you to be his arms and legs. I put only one person in charge of a ministry. He brought to my mind Moses. The Bible says Moses certainly was faithful in the administration of all God's house, as written in Hebrews chapter 3 verse 5, in the Amplified Bible. He was the leader, God put over the congregation, and then he brought to my mind James in the New Testament. James was the leader of the church in Jerusalem. He reminded me of the incident where circumcision was in question among the levers in Acts chapter 15. Paul and Barnabas and Peter and John, and all the rest of the apostles and elders of the Church of Jerusalem came together to talk about. Some of the believing Pharisees who were also leaders spoke first. Then Peter spoke. After him, Paul and Barnabas shared what God was doing among the Gentiles. And as the head, he gave his decision, and all of them, including Peter, Paul, and John, submitted to his decision. Peter said to the believers at the house of Mary, Go, tell these things to James and to the brethren, as recorded in Acts chapter 12, verse 17. The same was true for Luke and Paul. When they came to Jerusalem, Luke recorded, the brethren received us gladly. On the following day, Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present in Acts chapter 21, verses 17 and 18. Why would Peter and Paul identify James in those two accounts? It is clear that he was the lead man, who, by the way, he is separately mentioned by name. Once the Holy Spirit clarified this point, he continued, John, when you stand before me in judgment for the time period that I have had you serve in this church, you will not first give an account of how many youth you lent to salvation in Orlando for him. But you will first be judged on how faithful you were to the pastor and I put you under. Then he made the statement that shocked me. In fact, you can win all the youth in Orlando and stand before me and be judged for not submitting to and being faithful to the pastor I put you under. With those words, came a renewed sense of the fear of God. With all my defenses down, I was putty in the master's hand. He went on. John, if you continue in this direction, the youth will go one way, while the church goes another direction. You will bring a division to the church. The prefix diap means two. Putting together division means two visions. Why? For so many churches and homes dividing today, there is more than one vision, which means one is not submitted to God's ordained divorce.

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Michael, you're you're so respectful in all these clips. I'm like, I'm trying to like with tell my face to have self-control. You you keep you keep being uh you you keep being kind. Let me let me just set up this clip so and then you can respond to anything you want. Uh I want people to know what he's talking about. Here, uh, in this clip, uh, what has happened is he has said, look, there was a leader that was in my, you know, I was submitted to in Florida, and we had spent eight months uh really getting trained up. He says he went to a church in Louisiana. I bet you anything that Stockstill's church because they have this, you know, really large, impactful youth ministry that's meeting in homes. Anyway, he goes out there, he gets trained. He's been training as leader. He had 300 of them and cut it down to 24, and he's getting these guys to all start their own home group, and they're gonna they're gonna use small groups to reach their city. They've been planning for eight months, and then they go into a meeting, and the leader that's all he's called in the book, we know it's Benny, um, you know, says, Hey, look, uh Mr. Hen himself. Anyway. Uh he he says, Look, God has spoken. We're not doing home groups anymore. John kind of speaks out like, Oh, you mean everyone but the youth group, right? Because we had run this idea by you. You loved it. He's like, No, God has spoken. We're not doing this. John runs out of that room like Marv from uh uh home alone that mumbling and grumbling all the way home. He's frustrated, his wife's there. Oh, God's clearly teaching you a new thing. Now he's mad at his wife and uh and you know, Pester Benny. And uh anyway, he's he's out on the front porch and kind of sulking, and then God corrects him that he needs to submit to this leader, and that's where this context comes from. Miller, where do you say go?

SPEAKER_02 45:32

Uh I'm not actually ready. That's crazy. I I literally just like set you up to dunk. And no, no, no, no, I'm I'm the thing is we skipped some other quotes that I want to bring back to bears. I'm pulling that up next. Go and keep going on this this particular comment. I'm gonna bring up a quote that we don't actually have in our show uh that that I think would be helpful.

SPEAKER_05 45:53

I I'll I'll unpack this one. So again, Benny Hens the guy, he makes the claim that James is the leader of the church in Jerusalem. And the text does record that James James is kind of standing amongst the apostles as a leader in a sense. Uh consider it like the chair or the person who's calling the room to order. He is definitely driving the charge of this discussion. Uh, and he says that, you know, he gets up, he speaks, he says, Therefore I have made this judgment, and as the head, he gave this decision, and all of them, including Peter and Paul and John, all submitted to this decision unilaterally. But is that what the text is actually saying? I'm gonna argue no. Again, John uh James is some kind of leader uh in this capacity, a leader amongst leaders in some sense, but he is not unilaterally making uh a decision for the congregation. The text says in Acts 15 that uh that this this is a corporate uh decision that all uh that was not a solo ruling. Uh, verse six tells us that the apostles and the elders came together to consider this matter. Uh verse six is going to indicate that this was a group discussion, a group engagement. Verse 7 tells us there was much debate before anyone even spoke and gave charge. We have uh Peter getting up and and speaking about his beliefs about this issue. Paul gets up and speaks about his beliefs on this issue, and then James gets up and goes, Okay, well, I think you guys are right here. Uh, this makes sense to me. And then in the following verses, what you actually have is uh together the elders, the apostles and the elders and your brothers felt it reasonable to write this letter. The letter that is addressed comes from all of them, not from James, because James is not the solo authority. Here's the thing. Um, if I have a group of individuals together and we're having a board meeting, someone needs to take point to organize that meeting. Here's the things on the agenda. Here's the things we need to discuss. Oh, hey man, you kind of got out of line there. But does that mean that I have more vote than anyone else in the room? No. Uh because the decision is being made collectively. So there can still be a leader amongst a group of leaders while the leaders together are making a decision, what seems right. The whole setting uh presupposes that there was mutual submission and wrestling with truth and whatever was truth would out. James just seemed to be the guy who had the final, well, this seems right to us, and all of the apostles were in agreement. To suggest that Peter, James, uh, and John, I'm sorry, Peter, John, and Paul all submitted to the decree of James is to suggest that there was any kind of disunity. But we already have what they said. There's no submission to what he said. There was agreement with what he said. Uh anyway, I digress. Uh I don't think that it holds water. I think he is painting this in a way that allows a leader to have unilateral control over other leaders and submitting to that when the text is suggesting a more collaborative approach that he's not picking up on.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

So, what you mean is he's committing an isegetical mistake here by saying the text means this, when in reality it actually saws something quite the opposite, which we're gonna find over and over again. Um, now I'm gonna point out a quote we don't have in the show notes. Um he he starts off chapter eight by talking about how God is the one who appoints various leaders. And then he ends the chapter by saying, and when there's an unrighteous leader, God himself will remove them. And the example he uses is by talking about how Agrippa I died. Uh, we're told that the angel of the Lord struck Agrippa and he died, right? It says that worms ate him. Um, so supposedly he had some sort of worm condition. Um, then and so this was interpreted as the angel of the Lord or God doing this, which I think is true. I think that's what happened. But the point he's making is that it's not our job to remove bad leaders, it's the job of God to do that. Our job is simply to honor and submit to their authority. And in his mind, it means give praise to, uh give recognition. So I mentioned earlier the honor we have for a police officer. Um, so he you're supposed to speak well of them and not negatively of them. There's a big problem with this. Uh, one, the primary way God removes uh various bad leaders or judges are usually through righteous leaders. Um, like the number of times God raises up a righteous leader like Jeremiah to go and confront a king, or uh the fact that God commanded Israel to purge the false prophets from among them. And he even says, look, this could be your brother, this could be your sister, your father, your mother, your son, or your daughter. This is Deuteronomy 13. Like the way you purge a false prophet is by the people doing it. Um, God commanded Joshua to destroy Jericho. And so God uses people to actually bring about his judgments on those leaders or those groups of people. And then uh think about all of the times you read about throughout Judges, God uses Gideon and 300 to overthrow the Midianites. And then you look at the New Testament, how does God remove bad people? Uh, well, sometimes they actually failed to do this. And God re rebukes through Paul, the entire Corinthian church, for failing to remove a guy who was sleeping with his dead father's wife. They allowed this man to be in their church, take communion with them. And he's like, What are you doing? Um, or Hymeneus and Alexander, like he sends Timothy to remove two elders, of which Timothy ends up being an elder, those sent by the Apostle Paul. The point is, the way that God often removes these bad leaders is not some sort of sovereign thing that happens from the ether down, but it actually is using people to carry out his will to remove bad people. Um, but but it if you were to follow John Bevere's directive on this, you would just do nothing and just wait for God to sovereignly do these things. Imagine if we had the same approach to evangelism. You know, we all know that it's God who saves, right? We don't save anybody. But if we had this approach to evangelism, we would actually never share the gospel. We just let God do this. I think the thing is he's he's looking at one area of scripture and a failing to synthesize other areas of scripture, like how we're supposed to expose wicked deeds. Um and and it's just like he ignores these other passages over here and only looks at these passages and then it sort of inserts his own way of interpreting those passages uh as a way of carrying out our life in the church in particular. Um, so you can see this is this is a massive oversight, a massive problem, which doesn't ever get resolved in this book, sadly. And I think it actually encourages silence.

SPEAKER_05 52:20

I'll say that it's actually there's worse in here, and I know people you know heard us read that passage, and then I went straight to well, uh technically uh in the book of X, this is what it said. And they're like, you didn't handle that uh you're the hands and feet of Benny Hinn. Um because here's the thing that's real bad. Um being handy, we're the hands and feet of Jesus, we're the body of Christ, and here he's being told he is the body of Benny Hinn, which uh again, I know he didn't claim those exact words, um, but you can see the parallel illustration.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

I don't even think he I don't even think he realizes that that's a the next logical deduction from that statement. I don't think he even realizes that he's just supplanted Benny Hinn uh for God.

SPEAKER_05 53:00

Well he muted myself. Well, he definitely has, and uh well in this in this statement, again, knowingly or unknowingly. I think it's unknowingly, because again I want to be want to be cautious here. Um but you know he says that he's going to be judged for not accomplishing the pastor's vision. So I'm gonna be judged for not accomplishing his mission. But but here's the thing he said, well, if I if I didn't judge if I didn't save all the kids in Orlando, what is what's the mission and vision statement of Jesus? The mission and vision statement of Jesus set over the entire church uh was to go into all the world, preach the gospels, making disciples, right? Teaching them all that I've commanded you. Uh the great commandment, or right, love God, love people, right? So you you've got the great commandment, the great commission, that's the mission statement and the vision statement of the church. If Benny Hinn comes on the scene and he has a different vision, well, now you have division, right? The very thing that he said, two visions is division. And and I can't have a vision separate than Benny Hinn's, but I would I would urge the listener to recognize what he's putting before you, which is to say that your senior leader is the one who sets the vision for the church. That is an unbiblical premise. Jesus sets the mission and the vision for the church, and any pastor who gets outside of that mission and vision is therefore outside of that mission and vision and acts acting outside of the authority that they have been granted by Christ. Again, back to the illustration of the police officer and the warrant. All of us have. For you, it's you know, I'll let you kind of speak to your own account. I I don't want to speak to Round Tree's account because he's not here. He can he can do that on his own. Uh, but but yeah, I was in a situation where um there was a lady taking communion who was, you know, uh uh essentially living with a live-in boyfriend. She was a new believer. You know, we thought, hey, this is not a big deal. You know, we're gonna we're gonna have a private meeting with her, we're gonna call her to repent. You know, she she had become a member of the church, nobody knew this, and she accidentally said it on a microphone when she was sharing a testimony about her sister coming to faith. Really cool story. We all hear it as a staff and we kind of chuckle. It's like, ah, new believers, like, what are you gonna do? They don't know. Uh, we'll just teach them accurately the scriptures. If there's a real problem, you know, we'll exercise discipline, you know, things will happen. Pastor says, Don't worry, guys, I'll take care of it. We go, oh, okay, great. Six months later, she's become a member of the church. She has taken communion in the assembly, and someone calls me on the prayer team and says, Hey, look, this person is in the church and uh they're still living with their fiance. And I was like, Oh, that's so weird. My pastor told me that he was gonna take care of this. So, you know, we sat down as a leadership team. He brought it up, you know, someone's reached out, you know, uh, this is going on. And then quite a few of the disciples, you know, kind of spoke their voice. And I spoke about what 1 Corinthians 5 says. Like it's pretty explicit, this person can't take communion, this person should be purged from the community if they're not willing to repent. But we have to have the conversation with them. Certainly they'll, you know, repent. I I believe that of this person. We can marry them in between services, we can, you know, uh encourage him to move in with me, and you know, we can we'll figure something out. Like we're trying to figure out solutions here. We're not just trying to like burn uh these people down for living in sin that they probably they probably didn't know. They probably knew it was sin at this point being six months in a church, um, but to actually confront it and hold them to that standard. Um and and then pastor spoke up and said, Hey, it's it's not what you guys think, the Bible says. I'm in charge. And I was like, Oh, I've traded one pope for another, right? I I sola scriptura, Christ is the head of the church, he is the shepherd. And again, I had a benevolent dictator. He was a great man. This was a very intense moment of weakness for him. Um, and and that's it's a shame because again, I I think the world of this guy, this was just a really, really bad moment. I don't know why he didn't confront it. Um, but but I saw my way out of that church because I was not willing to tolerate that kind of activity because Christ wasn't reigning supreme. Um, that's difficult. We've all had to do it. Um, you know, I gave three years of my life to that church before I give that three years of life to another guy. Um, and you know, it just, you know, you you can get really exhausted devoting your life to people to find out that they don't care about you or they're not really committed to the gospel. And it's exhausting for people. It's one of the reasons we're addressing this, is because when we allow this kind of worldview to perpetuate, we get tyrannical leaders. Uh fortunately, my leaders who were in error were were somewhat benevolent, even though uh clearly disobedient to the scriptures and in sin. I I don't want to sugarcoat that or or pat it in any unnecessary way. But Miller, you've got a similar experience.

SPEAKER_02 57:33

Um Yeah, well, it had to do with vision, right? And that's actually one of the things I was told when I was fired was uh you to get you guys just have two different visions. And the thing was, I never really had a vision. I never wanted to be a visionary leader of a church. Like I that was never uh something that I aspired to be. I was just looking at how we were doing church and going, hey, there's a problem here. Uh we're not fulfilling the Great Commission, we're not making disciples. And I was told, we're making disciples every Sunday. And I'm like, yeah, but we're not. Especially when I was told you shouldn't be going expositorily through books of the Bible. Rather, we need to teach the vision of the church. And the vision of the church was uh God's presence transforming lives morning, noon, and night. In other words, their means of discipleship was to get people into the prayer room morning, noon, and night, and they will naturally be sanctified and transformed into Christ's image. And I just looked at it, go, that that that is not, that is not a holistic way in which we are transformed. Yes, prayer is a ministry of the church, but it cannot be the ministry of the church. And so what happened was I was told, uh, especially when the new elders were brought in, are you going to submit to my vision? That was a direct quote and question from Michael Miller, the senior pastor of the upper room, when I refused to uh get in line and teach the vision of the church. And his always his problem with me always as a teacher was you just don't teach the vision. And I'm going, yeah, I don't, because I don't think the vision is biblical. It wasn't so much me disagreeing or having a different vision from him. It was him having a different vision for the church than Christ himself. And so there is a massive problem of this. If I was to take John Bevere's advice, then I would be actually enabling people to continue in this dysfunction, having major problems with sanctification and discipleship, a lack thereof, a major neglect to the body of Christ if I was to do what John Bevere said and just go along and get along and submit to this guy's vision. The fact is the vision was unbiblical. And I'd say the same thing is probably true with what John Bevere himself experienced under Benny Henn's leadership. But John Bevere sees it, sees this as one of his greatest moments of success. And I'm going, John, I don't I don't actually think it was. Um I don't know uh with certainty, but I I question it pretty strongly, especially knowing the kind of things that that Benny Henn teaches. Um and there's more to this. I I don't think John realizes that he actually allowed Benny Henn to become his God for a season rather than God being his God.

SPEAKER_05 59:57

Yeah, and I want to I again you're you're always saying where you agree with John. I want to say where I agree with John here. John makes the statement uh that have du vision is having two visions, and I agree that any org with two visions is doomed for destruction and failure. So just make sure that any leader you have that is in leadership, their vision is lining up with Jesus' vision, and if not, it's doomed for destruction. Um so I will agree with him, but I think the application of how we apply that is going to be a little different. Uh, you ready for clip number four of 11? I was funny, John and Cole just said, John, John and Cole were like, oh man, we're late. So sorry. Oh man, this is rough, we're always late. It's like, don't worry, guys, we're just getting started. Okay, clip four.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:41

Again, the command of God reads, obey those who rule over you and be submissive. As I previously stated, people often ask me with all sincerity, where do we draw the line? Does God expect us to obey authorities, no matter what they tell us to do? But if I'm told to do something that is sin, the Bible teaches unconditional submission to authorities, but the Bible does not teach unconditional obedience. Remember, submission deals with attitude, and obedience deals with fulfillment of what we are told. The only time, and I want to emphasize the only exception in which we are not to obey authorities, is when they tell us to do something that directly contradicts what God has stated in his word. In other words, we are released from obedience only when leaders tell us to sin. However, even in those cases, we are to keep a humble and submitted attitude. Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, was brutal and destroyed many descendants of Israel in their homeland. Yet God called him my servant, as noted in Jeremiah chapter twenty five, verse nine and chapter twenty-seven verses five through seven, again confirming that God is the one who gives authority to man. This king brought back a remnant of God's people captive into Babylon. Among them were Daniel, Shadrach, Beshach, and Abednego. This king issued a decree that required all the people to bow and worship a golden image, and when they heard the sound of musical instruments, the decree held consequences for those who refused, and they would be thrown into a blazing furnace. Hebrew men feared God more than the furnace, and did not obey his decree, before directly violated the second commandment God gave through Moses recorded in the Torah. The disobeyed the ordinance of man in order to obey the ordinance of God. It was only a matter of time before their disobedience came to the attention of the King Nebuchadnezzar. He was furious with Shadrach and Beshach and Benago, and had been brought before him for questioning. Listen to their reply, O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to defend ourselves before you. But even if he doesn't, your majesty can be sure that we will never serve your gods or worship the gold statue we have set up. That is from Daniel chapter three, verses sixteen through eighteen. In the new living translation, they stood affirm in obedience to God's command, yes, spoke to the king with respect. We see this brought out in Peter's instructions to wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands, so that if any of them do not believe the word, they may be one over. Without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives, from 1 Peter chapter 3, verses 1 and 2, and the new international version. A wife is to obey, as instructed in Titus chapter 2, verse 5, as well as honor her husband with a submissive attitude. Peter drew again the parallel between behavior and submission. But she is called to unconditional submission, and honor of his authority position. A possible example would be a believing wife who answers the phone, but her husband doesn't want to speak to the caller and instructs her, tell him I'm not here. Peter went on to say, Your beauty should not come from outward adornment with such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is a great word in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful, they were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters, if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. This is from 1 Peter chapter 3, verses 3 through 6. In the new international version, Sarah's reverence was evident in the way she honored Abraham as her master and obeyed. The master reflected in her service in attitude, and obedience showed she did not yield to fear. Fear is a terrible taskmaster. Fear returns, I cannot trust God in submitting to my husband or any other authority. I must protect myself, unless remember God is not. Some power hungry man is the one who said to submit. And as we obey him, his protection becomes ours. I agreed upon hearing stories of women who took the command of unconditional submission, and applied it to encompass unconditional obedience as well. I heard cases as perverse as believing husbands who demanded their wives to watch lewd adult videos with them to provide sexual excitement, and the wives yielded because they thought they didn't have scriptural recourse. I know of husbands who demanded their wives to be dishonest for them, and they did. I've heard of husbands who forbade their wives from attending any church service, and the wives actually stopped attending. These directives are not to be obeyed because they violate scripture. Let's go further. I know of cases of husbands beating their children or wives, and the wives covering for their abuse. In other instances, the children were sexually molested, and the wives did nothing. But this is a violation of every premise on which God establishes authority. And women in these situations need to understand that God would never want to stand back and do nothing. If a husband is involved in life-written behavior, a wife should separate herself and the children from him, and not return until she is sure there has been complete repentance. Even David, a warrior in man's strength, did not hang around the palace when Saul was throwing javelins. He left and lived in the wilderness, but never lost his reverential attitude towards Saul's authority. David's submission to Saul's authority did not cease, though he fled Saul's presence and waited either true repentance or the righteous judgment of God.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:55

Okay, there is there is there is some silver lining there. Run from abusive men. I support that part of the message.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:03

Well let's let's give it a decent amount of uh recognition here because this is a major bad teaching that we saw in the Bill Gothard movement, the shepherd sheep movement, where people were told to obey their very abusive spouses, physically abusive, sexually abusive spouses, told to do all kinds of ungodly things. So thank God John Bevere is actually taking a stand for righteousness when it comes to obeying people that are telling you to do really wicked and evil things. Um that deserves its recognition just because this has actually been a major problem, especially in much of uh I would say, and I I'm sorry to out this particular group, but the IFB, uh the independent fundamentalist Baptists, we saw a lot of that kind of issue in those environments where people are told to do ungodly things uh in the name of submission to authority. Um so again, honor where a credit where credit is due here, right? Call balls and strikes. That's what uh at least I can say that right here in this chapter. There's some problems.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:02

So yeah, I I guess where I will push back, and I this is actually in the notes for the next section, Michael. It just fits so well here, so I'm putting it in. Uh in Matthew 23, one through three, uh, Jesus tells his disciples that the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So they should observe whatever they tell you, but not do their works, for they preach but do not practice. So it's similar to what we're gonna see of Jesus when he goes before the high priest and uh he is struck because he's spoken disrespectfully to the high priest. And he actually apologized. Sorry, I didn't know he was the high priest, I wouldn't have spoken that way. Um so I think that it's true that we honor positions of authority. Um there was a man that discipled the man who discipled me, uh, and Richard used to say, um, we honor people because we're honorable, not because they're honorable. And I like that. I like the idea that I show honor, not because you're honorable, but because I'm honorable. I I want to do that, which means speech. Margo Day. Yes, Margo Day.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:01

If we're to recognize for the image of God, there's a amount of honor that goes with it. Um, so uh innately.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:07

Yes, but but I also want to say in that same passage in Matthew 23, Jesus rips the Pharisees and scribes a new one. Uh he goes through that passage. No, he definitely does. Hypocrites, blind guides, blindfolds, blind men, serpents, brood of vipers, whitewash tombs. So, while I also acknowledge that Jesus is like, hey, there's this position. You should observe what they say, be honoring to them, but also, you know, the the vision that I'm going to get from him, and he's going to say this in a moment, and that's why it works in both sections. He's going to say in this moment, like, not only do you have to have like this like right, honor, and obedience and submission, but you also have to have a right attitude of submission. And he gets rebuked by the Lord because, you know, John's attitude stinks. But here, I would just say, hey, definitionally, you would say Jesus' attitude stinks because yes, he's recognizing. The position, even while um calling balls and strikes when it comes to people's character. In the same way, if a police officer is, yeah, I'm going to be reverent, I'm going to be appreciative, I'm going to be honoring, but but if they are tyrannical and telling me, oh, you can't protest in this publicly designed space where the laws protect me from doing so, you know, I I think that you have the right to say you're being tyrannical while still respecting the position and the office of that individual. Uh the second thing I want to mention is what he is defining as, you know, what we're supposed to do in these situations. He says, um, there's gonna be situations where a leader is gonna be doing the wrong thing, and I think they're going in the wrong direction. Shouldn't we spare them? Shouldn't we disagree with them? Shouldn't we, you know, uh correct them? And he's like, no, we absolutely should not do that thing. Oh, is that in the next section? It's the next section. Yeah, let's wait, let's wait to see. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go there. Uh Miller, you you you jump in.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:48

Yeah, so right at the beginning of this passage that we just quoted, uh, or this quote from this book, um, he has an issue with definitions again. He says that submission has to do with attitude, whereas obedience has to do with fulfillment of what we are told. There's a problem there. Um, one of the definitions, and I just did a quick little Google search of the word submission, and here's what it says obedience, compliance. It's not just talking about attitude, it's actually talking about what we do. And so synonyms. Yeah, there's synonyms. And so again, we're like it it's really muddying the waters here because you you're trying to say that you're supposed to have this godly attitude towards these people. Now, in a chapter prior to this one, and let me just pull up my notes here for a second to talk about this. He he talks about how we have to learn to honor and revere and respect and treat with deference and submission and perform relative duties to those who are in authority. So he he makes an argument that we're submit, we're to submit not to just to godly leaders, but also ungodly leaders, and to not do so would be uh insubordinate, which serves the spirit of the antichrist. Well, okay. Except for when it's sin. You mean to tell me that if I if I find a leader is actually creating uh disunity by teaching wrong doctrine, doctrine that cannot save, let's say prosperity gospel is a case in point. Um, that I'm supposed to still honor that person who's teaching a false gospel that cannot save you. I'm supposed to submit to that person. Uh like let's just say I'm one of the guys collecting the money and the prosperity gospel message that you just gave, and my my conscience is stricken by this, and I'm looking at it going, I'm literally enabling and supporting a greedy, uh bad person by taking this offering. But like for John Bever, honor and submission means like I need to have a right attitude about this guy. He actually shares the example of a radio host broadcaster who uh talks about a politician, a governor, in a really negative way. He says a lot of negative things about this person. And Bevere, for for Bavere, speaking badly about this governmental politician, the governor of this particular state, was partnering with the Antichrist. Um he uses 2 Thessalonians 2:4, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called God or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Like, well, you you mean to tell me that by criticizing an ungodly leader that I'm usurping God? I I'm sorry, that that's way too far. Uh he also uses 1 Peter 2 17 honor everyone, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor. Um yeah, I I'm gonna speak in some sense respectfully, but I will voice and air my disagreements, and I may even do so quite passionately. Um, I don't think Jesus, when he disagreed with the Pharisees, that he did it without passion. I mean, calling them whitewashed graves, calling them a brood of vipers, I don't think these things would have been considered honoring.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:03

Um but it kind of makes a turn of fox. I mean, that's like that is not a kind thing in the first century. Uh fox is not around. You just figure it out for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:15

He calls speaking badly about a leader a principle of Satan himself. I'm like, uh, hold on, then Jesus is operating by a principle of Satan, according to John Bevere. Again, John would never say that, but that is the next logical deduction. And I'm not like, I'm not overplaying this. I'm telling you quite literally, this is what the next step would be. Um, so there's a massive conflation here. And the other thing about this, he calls bashing a president or bashing a governor. Uh, in his mind saying it is something negative being said about them, he calls that slander. Again, this is another problem with definitions. Slander means speaking things that are not true. But he doesn't define the word slander, he just says when you speak things that are bad, or you're making a truthful observation and you're airing that truthful observation, well, you're slandering. Okay, well, we're told in scripture not to slander, but again, that means lying. But he's equating slander, not necessarily lying. He's like, Yeah, yeah, but he'd probably agree that slander is lying, but he's saying slander is also just speaking true things that would reflect badly or cause that person to be seen in a bad light. I'm like, well, then Jesus is guilty of slander according to your definition of slander. Um, yeah, this is just so bad. Um, so again, there's a major issue with definitions all throughout this book. And and here's the problem: like there's a low level grade of trauma that people experience when they're under an abusive leader over a prolonged period of time. And that abuse may not be something like being commanded to do something sinful. That abuse could just be simply denying the reality that you're experiencing under their leadership. Like, oh, you're overreacting. Like, hey, I'm tired. Too bad. You need to put in more hours. We have more things to do. And that low grade denial of your reality and command to just go along to get along actually creates trauma in the body. In fact, people will find that they have long-term issues health-wise because they submitted themselves under that kind of authoritarian leadership. And but according to John Beer, don't ever say anything bad about your experience or don't even talk about your bad experience because if you do that, you're slandering. So here's what the end result is. You're now having to suffer in silence, which is quite literally what creates trauma in the body, which tells me I don't think he understands anything about how trauma works. And maybe that's overly harsh, but but that exactly that that is what creates trauma is when you have to suffer silently and then you blame yourself for your own suffering because you're the problem for having a problem, which is exactly what he's saying here. You're the problem for having a problem. And if you just submitted, had a righteous attitude, didn't say anything negative, then uh you'd be doing just fine, like John Beer did just fine. And that's sort of the lesson. He uses his own examples of suffering quietly uh as the uh example to follow, uh, the rubric, um, and how his life is blessed today, and how other people that he knows who suffered quietly, never said anything about a bad leader when they left, uh, how now they're doing great. And on the other side of it, people who did say something and spoke about their experiences, man, they're not doing so well today. And so he's giving you incentive to stay quiet. Um, meanwhile, it actually has disastrous impacts on those who suffered these kinds of abuses, which fails to recognize entirely.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:58

It's it's also really easy to follow this when it's like, oh, your leader is committing this high-handed sin. Okay, cool, we had to do something now. But like, what about manipulation, intimidation, deception, favoritism? Right? What about like reckless decisions that aren't like tied to any level of wisdom? Um, and you have no grounds to resist these sorts of actions because they're more subjective. And under the situation, you're only able to really push back against objective sorts of things. And he also mentions women in this uh account, and you know, he tells women, and I'm thankful he tells women, that they can leave if their life is in danger. Uh he tells them, hey, you can you can leave if um you're being abused. Great. Um, but I don't think he defines abuse. He just says you you can re you can uh rebel against authority, you can not submit to authority um when they're telling you to do something sinful, and if your life is threatened, you can get out of there. Those are the only two standards. He doesn't use the word abuse. And I think the word abuse is actually really important for this discussion. I'm just saying I don't think Bavir goes far enough because there are situations where women are in abusive relationships where physical violence is not taking place. Um, you know, stories where women aren't allowed to leave the home, women women aren't allowed to have access to the finances, aren't allowed to make purchases, aren't allowed to speak unless spoken to, uh, aren't allowed to play with their children. Um they're not allowed to express emotions. Now, the Bible doesn't actually have a Bible verse that says um if anyone uh prevents you from playing with your kids, that's sin. The Bible doesn't have a Bible verse that says uh uh women must have equal access to the bank account. Uh the Bible doesn't have a Bible verse that says um husbands can't tell their wives they must not exercise emotion. Now you might be looking at me and saying, Josh, that's an extreme example. And I'm like, extreme examples are the whole reason we're talking about authority here. Because when you don't define your terms, extreme examples flourish and women stay in relationships. And he enables it. Yes, people are gonna stay in churches, they're gonna stay in relationships where they are being abused because they can't see clear sin and they that they can prove and and they can't see physical abuse or violence or threat of their life. And I go there there's a larger category here that we're just not touching.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:17

I have a story that at some point is gonna be brought to bear. Um, and it was a female who was uh the bank account accounts were closed to her. She had no access to any of their finances. Uh her husband was physically abusive, emotionally abusive, uh, to the point where she she actually was trying to uh earn enough money on the side so that she could actually get out of the house, but she had nowhere to go and no money. So even if she tried to leave, she'd suddenly be homeless and have nothing, uh nowhere she could go and no money to help her eat, even. Um, this is the literal situation that was created for her. And yet there was no clear uh like if she was to take John Bevere's book, she would say, Oh, I'm a problem for having a problem with this. Like I just need to submit. I just need to have a righteous attitude about my husband, even though uh he doesn't allow me to buy anything for myself. I have to ask him anytime I even want to buy a sandwich. Um dude, and and then it gets it worse. She brought this information, like her experience, to someone in the church, a very well-known church, which we are going to probably expose in this story. Uh, and that pastor did nothing with that information. And she just thought, well, okay, you know, again, she feels like she's supposed to submit to the leadership of the church and and she's supposed to work through their problems. And since there was no direct abuse from their definition, a wrong definition, she stayed in this unhealthy marriage until she finally had somebody to help her escape. Um, but that's the other crazy part is like the person who's helping you escape ends up being seen as a bad person, another rebellious woman in this story. Um, this is just I again, I think the thing is, I think John, if he heard me tell this story, he'd go, Yeah, no, I totally think that's wrong. I agree. But John, your book, it doesn't do that. It actually tells those women to shut up. That's what it does. Like that's how that's how severe I think what you've just said is. And I honestly think you should remove this book from the shelf because I do think it enables abusive people to continue their abuses with no repercussion. And I mean, you flat out said it yourself. God is the one who sovereignly removes these people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:32

Not that I not the I completely agree with you. I think if John Bavere is watching this video right now, he goes, that's a good point. You know, like I think I think he goes, Yeah, I I didn't mean to like make these the only two qualifiers and but he does it with his own life later on. I know he does, and it didn't look good. It don't look good. Okay, we gotta hit we gotta pick up the pace, Miller. Let's do clip number five. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:52

There were other discrepancies, and I focused on all of them. It was an international ministry, which was highly visible in the United States. All of the programs required a lot of manpower and money to keep the machines rolling. We have staff of more than 250, and we possessed state of the art in everything. Consultants were brought in to help raise more money for the existing programs and for future ideas. I was responsible for hosting them. Alone in their company, I heard discussions under meetings with my pastor. I would question within myself, is this for-profit business or ministry? The more I heard, the more I thought, this is deceptive. Do these guys really care about people? Or are they just in this for the money? Why would my pastor surround himself with these men? The whole time, I was surrounded by friends who were as critical as I was. I distinctly remember the dinner at one couple's house. Both of us guys reported directly to the pastor and his wife. We discussed how we were not receiving any longer from the ministry. I remember saying, for the last six months I haven't gotten anything out of what is being taught from the pulpit. We all agreed, except my wife, who kept quiet, but I repeatedly heard the statement. We just aren't getting fed any longer. We agreed our time of serving in this ministry was coming to a close. We felt very spiritual about the whole issue, and were convinced God was preparing to release us into the ministries he ordained for us. There was a confident sense among us that our days were coming to a close at our posts, and we were on the verge of promotion. The problem was with me a few days later, while I was in prayer, God in his mercy brought to mind the issue we discussed at the couple's house. The phrase not being fed was not isolated that evening, but I had frequently stated these exact words to my wife, as we sat under our pastor's teaching at each service the previous six months. As I was pondering my present starvation from not being fed, the Holy Spirit firmly informed me. The problem is not with your pastor, the problem is with you. I was stunned, and almost in disbelief, would God say this to me? In the past when I experienced this type of correction, many times I would hesitate a moment and challenge the accuracy of what I had heard. My mind questioned, Are you sure you have the right person? As we mature, this questioning should happen less frequently, because we come to realize just how little we really know, and how much we need to grow. I questioned aloud, Why is the problem with me? The Lord responded, You keep bringing up the lack of being fed. The book of Isaiah states, if you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land, but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword. As written in Isaiah chapter 1, verses 19 and 20. I knew this scripture quite well and protested, I have been very obedient. But the Holy Spirit countered, You obey everything you're told to do in this ministry. And I did not say, if you are obedient, you shall eat the good of the land. I said, if you are willing and obedient, and willingness deals with your attitude, and your attitude stinks.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:27

Again, that's why I brought up Jesus a moment ago. Uh you know, definitionally, he'd say his attitude stinks. Can I can I take a stab at this? I typically punt it over to you to go first. I'll uh you you're muted, buddy. I can't hear ya. Is it on purpose? I just want to make sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:41

Sorry, I said by all means go first. This makes me angry. This is one that I get like I'm getting fired up here.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:46

I'm gonna I'm gonna move quickly and I'll I'll try to be positive because I'm learning from Miller here. I'll start off being positive. I I do agree there are some folks out there who say the phrase, I'm not being fed. And what they mean is I'm not being stimulated. Um if your pastor is faithfully exegeting the text, maybe it's not about Nephilim, maybe it's not about spiritual gifts, maybe it's not about something that's like really super exciting to you about portals, which by the way, the Bible doesn't talk about those. But let's just say it's like not super exciting, and that's that's what you mean when you say I'm not being fed, is that my pastor's not going into the the deep spiritual things, the the things that like like really excite you. That's that's uh that's definitionally wrong. You should sit down and shut up if you're if your pastor is faithfully executing the text, giving you the text as the author intended it. Other times, you are in churches where pastors have completely mailed in their sermon. There is no work, there's no care, you can tell. Uh they get up and they stumble through the words, they kind of clearly uh undermine the authorial intent of the scriptures. If you're in that situation and you go, I'm not being fed, you aren't runly, right? Um so I I want to be, I want to speak to both sides of that. There are people who are overstimulated, they're saying uh they're confusing personal stimulation, cerebral stimulation, or you know, goosebumpy new revelations with being fed. That's wrong. There's another group of people who are like, Well, I should be feeding myself, but every time I go to the assembly on the Lord's day, I get something that was baked in five minutes that there's no honor to God's word, there's no care for the text. My pastor can't exegete the scriptures, he can't preach his way out of a wet paper sack, leave.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:29

I I believe that would be biblical. Let me let me throw another one at you. Hey, your pastor is incredibly entertaining and he brings things that you have never seen out to you for you to observe and and and go, wow, I've I've never read this, but it's true. The problem is if it's not actually teaching the text and you find yourself just hearing the values of that pastor, I would say run once again. This was actually the issue I mentioned about my former church. He was teaching his values. He always had a new novel way of taking a text and making it about his values when that text never actually taught those values. Um, I would say you weren't actually being fed. You're not actually hearing the teaching of God's word, um, which I do think is actually a prerequisite for a church to be a church. They have to disciple its people through the teaching of God's word as it's intended by the authors who wrote it and by God who inspired those authors. So there is a sense where that does happen, just to be very clear. Josh is right though. If you find yourself saying, Yeah, I'm just not like very entertained, you know, it's it doesn't, it doesn't feel like fresh bread to me. I'm like, uh I think you might have some wrong values. Your value shouldn't be in how entertaining it is, but rather is are you actually being taught the text in its context? And the person may be rather bland in doing so, and and that wouldn't be anyone's preference, but as long as they're faithfully doing that and you're actually learning what the author intended you to learn, then that's a good thing. That's a church that is actually feeding you, and that teacher is faithfully dealing with that passage.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:01

So speaking of context, now that you bring it up, um the Holy Spirit um got it wrong, I think, when he spoke to John. Obviously, I don't think the Holy Spirit got it wrong. I just don't think this was the Holy Spirit. But Isaiah 1, 19 through 20, uh, hey, if you're gonna you're gonna be willing and obedient, that text is about covenant faithfulness to Yahweh, not your senior leader. So um I that you can't just take that and say, Oh, I'm not, I'm not being, I'm not being willing and obedient to my senior leader. Jesus gives a parable uh of a boy who uh says, Yes, dad, I'm gonna go and do it. He's willing and is not obedient, doesn't go and do it. The other one uh is obedient but is not willing. He doesn't want to do it, it says, Dad, I'm not gonna do it, and then goes and does it. Um the one that is commended is the one who does it, right? So um I I would encourage those uh out there. There are times when God calls us to do things that we do begrudgingly, um, but it's because we love the Lord that is why we do those things, right? Um so so uh I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit couldn't maybe apply something to John in this context, but I just like like maybe the Holy Spirit would use a verse that's about God and apply it to John in a way that, like, hey, can you see how you're erroring here? I don't have a huge problem with that. I said maybe the Holy Spirit was wrong. That was probably excessive. I I I believe God speaks in those kinds of ways at times. I think what the actual problem that I have with this is he was saying things like, I'm not getting fed, and knowing his church background, he probably wasn't. That's probably true. Um, yeah, it's probably true. And then let's actually talk about that. That's important. Well, let's do the other one, and then you can do them both at the same time. The other one was I I have problems. I think these guys are doing this to get rich, they've turned this into a business. Also, probably true. So he just kind of brushed those aside because the Holy Spirit said, You're not you're not willing, even though you're obedient. And I would just say, Whoa, both of those are red flags, both of those are good reasons to get out of there, and the Holy Spirit is telling you to stay in a space where people are fleecing the sheep. Uh, that doesn't sound like the Holy Spirit to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:01

Yeah, so uh the it's funny because he's kind of like dismissing and minimizing his own concerns here and claiming God is the one minimizing his concerns, which is why I don't think he's actually hearing God. Um, but the churches that he happened to be speaking about, and I think in this case, I'm almost positive, was Ted Haggard's church, uh New Life Fellowship down there in Colorado Springs, the one which just lost their most recent pastor, who supposedly knew about the uh sins of Robert Morris and yet never and still put him on their board. Um so that's where he's bringing up the concerns from. That matters because I actually bet you they weren't being taught the text and its context. I actually bet he wasn't being fed. But yet here he dismisses his own concerns and he's claiming it's the Lord who was doing this uh dismission and that he was just supposed to have the right attitude, right? Submit, stop complaining. But here's again, I keep saying here's the problem, that expression. It's gonna be repeated all throughout this. Um I saw this happen a number of times where people would bring up concerns about their senior pastor, and they would try to go to the board members to do so. And when they brought those concerns to the board members, which by the way, they that's exactly what you're supposed to do. If you have these kind of concerns, you're not supposed to just stay silent, you're supposed to submit them with gentleness and kindness and yet severity. Like this matters. Uh, I tell my church all the time, you, as members of the church, are not without authority. You have authority. Um, and it is required biblically that you use that authority. And one piece of authority there is that you hold other members of the church accountable to scripture. And like it or not, although I may be an elder of my church, I am still first and foremost a member of my church, which means I'm I'm one of the ones that has to be held accountable. Um, and I'm not just held accountable by some sort of executive board that doesn't attend this church. I'm to be held accountable by my own church. Um, I don't think John believes that. I think he believes that the only people who can hold leaders accountable are other leaders and not the members. And so he fails to recognize that members actually have authority. Uh and that's a major key, you know, uh hallmark of this whole book is this idea of authority, yet he fails to recognize that Jesus says that all of us who are in Christ are above principalities, and that all of us in Christ will one day judge angels. So there's a level of authority all of us have by being in Christ. I'm losing my train of thought though. Um oh, this is what I was gonna say. I saw this happen with Dr. Brown, uh, Dr. Michael Brown. He sat on the board for Daniel Clinda's ministry, he sat on the board for Jeremiah Johnson's ministry, he sat on the board for Lee Cummings' ministry, he sat on all of these different boards. I think there's another one I'm forgetting at this point, but all of these different churches had people appeal to.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:55

But it was on Todd White's ministry and I think it was on Todd White and Mercy Culture, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:00

Yes. So again, all of these churches had people appeal to Dr. Michael Brown. They came to him and said, dude, this is my experience. Like my pastor's abusing me, or he just abused his power and he lied. You know, just going down the line of sins that these different pastors committed. Um, now, just to be clear, I heard multiple stories from the coming church, like over 20-something victims that I sat and listened to over and over again, the same story from several different people. Same thing was true with Jeremiah Johnson. But when they brought these concerns to Michael Brown, guess what he said about them? You're not honoring, you have an ungodly attitude. In other words, you're not being submissive as John Bevere would require that you do. Um, and so those people became the problem for having a problem. And yet they did exactly what we're told in scripture to do. You bring these pieces of evidence to the elders. Uh and so I while while John will quote uh passages about how you need to have two or three pieces of evidence to come and bring an allegation against an elder, it he already has dismissed those pieces of evidence by saying when you have this kind of criticism, you're already partnering with Satan himself. Uh so your criticism is never going to stand. These two or three pieces of evidence that you have of abusive, sinful leaders, um, it never actually gets looked at unless it's some sort of egregious sexual sin. This is what's so dang problematic about this book. Uh again, I don't think, I think if I was to actually say these things to him, he'd go, yeah, you're probably right. I'm like, dude, then amend this book massively or just remove it entirely and issue out some sort of public apology because this is enabling these abusive people like Jeremiah Johnson to never be held accountable. Finally, because of ministries like ours and like John Mark Baker and like Mike Winger, where they were actually talking about these sins, these people finally got exposed. But but again, you in your book would have dismissed these ministries as not having a godly attitude and partnering with Satan just by having these negative things to say. And that's a problem. Um truth matters. And uh and and here's the other thing is you you say in your book not to judge people's motives, yet you literally do that. You judge their motives by saying they have a ungodly attitude. Well, that ungodly attitude is a judgment of a motive. Um, so I'm sorry. I I've monologued quite a long bit there, John. Yeah. I mean uh uh Josh Josh. I'm still Josh.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:41

Um you know what also matters? Clip number six. Let's watch it.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:44

Yeah, I'll disproving tones echoed in the voices of many who claim to be discerning, yet have insubordinate parts. Even as I write this book, I've just received a letter in the past 24 hours in which I had to deal with and I'll submit as long as I agree attitude coupled with the ability to discern. Those who think like this mistakenly believe they have a sure way out of true submission. Who put him in that position? You may question, what if I discern that my leader is not making a very good choice? Should I still obey him, knowing he is headed for misfortune? As I look back at my serving years, I remember many times when I felt this frustration. They're making a bad decision, they're missing God, they've been negatively influenced. I just can't submit to this. Yet, more often than not, my unbroken heart was manifesting its independence. I'd served as an administrative assistant to my pastor for a year, and found myself questioning many decisions. I saw his directives as they crossed my desk before being distributed to the department heads. Countless times I thought his decisions unwise, and murmured in my heart against them. One day the Spirit spoke to me, I have a question for you. Experience has taught me, when God questions me, he is about to expose my faulty wisdom. I responded, Yes. Lord, did I put you in a position of pastor, or did I put him in the position of pastor? I said, You put him in the position. The Lord quickly said, That is right, therefore I will show him things I don't need to show you. And many times I will keep the wisdom of his decision from you on purpose, to see if you will follow him as he follows me. Usually months later, the wisdom of the pastor's decision would surface. I'd see it, lights would go on, and I'd realize once again I've been led astray by my reasoning, by exalting higher than the principle of obedience. This very thing causes splits in churches, homes, and businesses. God did not limit our submission to authorities to the times when we see their wisdom, agree with them, or like what they tell us. He just said, OB. Later the Lord spoke to my heart. John, if I intended for every believer to get all his information, wisdom, and direction only from prayer and communion with me, and I'd never have instituted authority in the church. I placed authorities in the church, with the full intent that my children could not get all they needed just from their prayer life. They would have to learn to recognize and hear my voice through their leaders as well. It's not our responsibility to make calls on leadership decisions, or even to judge the results after the fact. If the Israelites had been allowed to judge Moses' decisions, he would have come out on the short end of the stick, and they would have returned to Egypt. Leaders will be judged, and we will be judged. Leaders will be judged for their decisions, and their judgment will be more severe than ours. For this reason, Jesus warned, for everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required, and to whom much has been committed. Of him they will ask for more, as recorded in Luke chapter 12, verse 48. And James warned as well, dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we the teacher will be judged by God with greater strictness, found in James chapter 3 verse 1 in the New Living Translation. On the other hand, our judgment will be relative to our submission, for authority is of God. To resist delegated authority is to resist God's authority. We should not take upon ourselves the pressure to discern beforehand whether leaders are right or not, nor should we judge after the fact. This is not our burden, but God's. He alone knows, and can change hearts as he so desires. Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:40

You want to go first, or do you want me to go first?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:44

Uh I'll just say on the front end God's rebuke for John, that wasn't God. That's God that that's John's own belief system at play. Um I've often said that one of the uh pitfalls in prophecy and hearing God is having a wrong theology. That wrong theology causes you to uh project something that God is actually not saying that's coming from your own uh unbiblical theology. And that's exactly what's happening here. He assumes in this statement here that members have no real authority, they're not allowed to question what their leaders do. Um, you know, the ironic part is later in the book he'll contradict himself talking about how he allows even his own staff to bring up concerns and questions. It's like it doesn't always have to lead to division, John. It doesn't always have to lead to church splits, John. It could just lead to understanding. They could come to you with their concerns and questions because they've actually been taught to do that very thing. Um, and that you've created a safe space for them to bring their concerns forward, which here's the ironic part. I actually think John, likely in his own leadership, creates a safe space for people to come to him with their concerns and their questions. When they see something they disagree with, they go, hey, John, here's something I'm struggling with. He probably has a great conversation with him. I don't think he's a narcissist. I don't think he's uh I don't think he necessarily feels threatened by questions. Um, again, this is me assuming the best about John Bevere. But yet what he endorses in his book is don't ask questions. Asking questions makes you insubordinate.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:20

No, that's right. He he, you know, he goes, hey, you know, I'll submit if I can discern, if I can reason, and if it lines up with what I think. And you've really got no place to engage with your leader and to disagree with them privately or publicly. Um, and so I'm gonna I'm gonna bring up women in the Old Testament and go, okay, which one of these do you think was out of line? Like when Abigail, for instance, in 1 Samuel 25, her husband Nabad had insulted David and David's out for vengeance, he's out for blood, he goes and kills Nadab, or trying to. And Abigail intervenes and intercedes with David and spares him of blood guilt. Here, David is a leader in Israel. She goes and she humbly uh confronts David and says, Hey, look, David, I I think this is bad. You shouldn't do this, and spares David of blood guilt. Or in 2 Samuel 14, 1 through 20, uh, Joab was hoping to uh reconcile David to his estranged son Absalom. So he sends a woman who weaves this story together, this great kind of uh parabolic-like story. David hears it, he understands what Absalom is doing, and he recants, again, preventing him from shedding blood. So here's this woman who goes and confronts her leader. Or 2 Samuel 20. We meet another wise woman in the town of Abel. Uh there is a rebel who flees there into the city, and then we have, I think it's Joab who comes to destroy the city, and the woman comes out and says, Whoa, whoa, whoa, uh, you know, let's negotiate peace here. And she she spares the city and is called the woman of wisdom because she has, you know, um, she has pleaded with her leadership that had made up their mind about something and saying you're going in the wrong direction. Or Esther, um, who, again, spares a king of blood guilt and and steers him in the right direction. All of those, I think, in John Bever's system, would not just be uh underlings of the king, but they're also women. I'm sorry, I uh I don't believe this, but the way that I read John, it seems that he has a vision of this that I I can't get on board with. Um I just think that uh here again uh is is what's what's important is that all wisdom is God's wisdom, all truth is God's truth, and man, woman, child, um educated, uneducated, uh humble or proud, if they come to me and they speak God's truth, God's wisdom, I want to submit to that because it is God who is speaking through them, not them themselves. Right. And I think in all these accounts, what you have is lady wisdom proverbially, the the work of the Spirit inspiring minds and hearts to plead with leadership and it steers in that right direction. Um, I don't think that you have to usurp authority, but here what John is saying is you shouldn't, you shouldn't disagree with their decisions, you shouldn't, you shouldn't use your discernment, you shouldn't allow your reason to reign over this. And I go, man, I I don't think that's biblical. I just I just walked through a bunch of passages where that's just not the case.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:12

It's a conflation of having concerns and questions with insubordination, right? You're not creating a coup by saying, huh, I disagree with this decision. And in fact, I'm gonna voice that disagreement. And I'm not saying you need to go and voice it with every single person in the church, but you need to have people that you can process your disagreements about. Um, that's life. Imagine if kids never get to disagree with their parents. Like you're creating a bunch of robots, not independent thinkers. But he even says independent, right? He uses that word and he uses it in a pejorative way. Um man, what you're really doing, John, is you're creating an echo chamber of your own making, and you're gonna ensure that you only have yes men around you, people who can never tell you when you're wrong. That is disastrous. That's what we call a totalitarian dictator. It's one who surrounds themselves with sycophants who only tell them what they want to hear. Um, you're actually endorsing having that kind of leadership structure. Whether you realize it uh intentionally or unintentionally, that's what you're doing.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:17

Yeah. That I mean, that's I sometimes just call Miller to tell him he's wrong and ugly, just to keep him humble. Um Thank you. Thank you for that. You're you're welcome. Uh clip number seven. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:31

Shortly after the meeting, I received written evidence of a decision this manager had made that exposed his motives. I was ready to take it to the senior pastor. I wanted him to see what was going on behind his back. I paced the floor of praying for 45 minutes, trying to overcome the uncomfortable feeling I had. I kept arguing, God, this man has been dishonest. He must be exposed. He is a destructive force in this ministry. I must tell the senior pastor the way he really is. I further justified my intentions to expose him. Everything I am reporting is fact and documented. It's not emotional. If he is not stopped, his corrupt behavior will infiltrate this entire church. Finally, in frustration, I blurted, God, you don't want me to expose him, do you? When I said that, the peace of God flooded my heart. I shook my head in amazement. I knew God did not want me to do anything, so I threw away the evidence. Later, when I delivered the situation deadly, I realized I had really wanted to defend and avenge myself more than protect anyone else. I reasoned myself into believing my motives were unselfish. My information was accurate, but my motives were impure. Time passed, and one day, while I was praying outside on the church grounds before office hours, this man told up. God told me to go and humbled myself. Immediately I was defensive. No Lord, he needs to come to me. He is the one causing all the problems. I continued to pray, but God was silent. After 20 minutes, again, the Lord insisted I go immediately to him and humble myself. I knew it was God. I called this man and went to his office. However, what I said, and how I said it, was very different from what it would have been before God dealt with me. With all sincerity, I asked his forgiveness. I told him I'd been critical and judgmental of him. He softened, and we talked for a while. From that day, his attacks against me stopped. Six months later, while I was out of town, all the wrong he'd done was exposed to the senior pastor. What he was doing was much worse than even I knew. He was fired immediately. Judgment came, but not by my hand. The very thing he tried to do to me happened to him. However, when it did, I was not happy. I grieved for him and his family. I understood his pain. I'd been through it myself at his hands. Because I released him six months earlier, I loved him, and did not wish the circumstances on him. I attended that church eleven more years, and was asked often to minister. The shame he brought to my name was removed, and was replaced with honor. I look back and realize I grew during that time of hardship, and later God promoted me before the very people who heard so many false reports. Just as the Father highly exalted Jesus for his obedience and for his willingness not to defend himself, so he honors his children who follow the example Jesus left us. After sharing scriptures in this incident with Addison, I said, Son, you have a choice. You can continue to stand up for yourself and remain under your teacher's judgment. Or you can realize you have not responded to his accusations in a godly manner. Then you can go to your teacher, humble yourself, and apologize for being disrespectful and resisting his authority, and God will get involved. Addison questioned, then what do I do when I'm blamed for something I didn't do? I replied, Let God defend you. Has it worked to defend yourself? Addison responded, No, I want God to defend me. The next day, he went to his teacher and humbled himself. He asked the teacher to forgive him for challenging him when corrupted.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:27

This is a load of crap. I'm going for it. Uh listen, uh, the Bible does not say that we should not defend ourselves in public forum. In fact, we have Jesus uh in an account where he is falsely accused of blasphemy, goes, Well, don't your scriptures say he reasons and defends his claim from the scriptures. When he is falsely accused of performing miracles on the Sabbath, and because he performed this miracle, he is working and breaking the Sabbath, he then goes and defends and says, Well, God is working on the Sabbath, I must also be working, claiming that he is God. So, so over and over, uh, this idea that Jesus just remained silent, yes, to the cross, to the slaughter, but remember every time before the Passion narrative, uh, they tried to debate Jesus and he smoked those jokers every single time. So, like he defended his position, he defended his theology, he defended his beliefs, he said truth, and he stood by that truth. And then to say that the Holy Spirit is telling you this guy has done a great injustice, and the Holy Spirit is telling you to conceal, I'll tell you what the Holy Spirit sounds like. He sounds like Ephesians chapter 5, 9 through 14. For the the fruit of light is found in all that is good, right, and true, and try to discern what is pleasing the Lord. Well, Paul, how am I supposed to do that? Well, he says, take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is shameful even to speak about the things that are done in secret. But when everything is exposed in the light, it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light, therefore it says, awake O sleeper, riset from the dead, Christ will shine on you. So here in this passage, I got to preach this at uh Bert Miller's church in Delaware. Uh but I'll tell you that this text of scripture is commanding believers to not not to hide things that we know that are that are bad, that are criminal, that are going to get them fired, to suppress those things because my heart's not in the right place. The Holy Spirit would say, bring it before the church and expose deeds. When the Holy Spirit explicitly commands you to do something that the scriptures uh well can explicitly the Holy Spirit explicitly tells you to do something or not do something that scriptures explicitly command, it is not the Holy Spirit who is speaking to you. Uh the scriptures tell us what to do in these situations. Um yeah, I'm sorry that I'm gonna be so bold on this point. Um, John, this is wrong. This is honor culture, this is cover-up culture. Um, and I and I know you're just a product of your own culture, but but please, brother, like reason with me in the scriptures. The scriptures command us to do this, and you're telling me the Holy Spirit told you no. Um I'm sorry that some people's ministries uh are small because they've called out other leaders. Um and I it seems that you think that's judgment from God. But like Jeremiah's ministry wasn't it. I was just gonna say. Yeah. Jeremiah, you know, he was calling leaders out all the time and didn't have a very big ministry, but we're not called to be successful. We're called to be faithful. And sometimes faithfulness looks like small, sometimes faithfulness looks like not big audiences.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:29

I mean, I I actually think Jeremiah's calling was quite literally to go and speak to people who will not listen. It's the most unpopular ministry a person could have was being Jeremiah. Uh he didn't fit in at all. There's a lot that's here that's worth mentioning. Uh, one, he's explicitly hearing from God and encouraging his son to disobey clear commands in scripture. Uh Ephesians 5.11, take no part in unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. Expose them. John, you said God told you not to expose them. Well, which one's right? Your personal revelation from God, what you personally heard from God, or what Paul writes to the Ephesian church? Which one should we listen to? That which one is authoritative? Because it seems like you're placing your own personal revelations from God above that of Scripture, and then you're giving an application for not just your son, but the whole world to follow. You're telling people to disobey. I know you don't mean to do this, but that's exactly what you're doing. But not only that, you say that we're not supposed to defend ourselves. Let me just show you an example in scripture where somebody is actually sort of implied to do exactly that. Uh, this is Exodus 22, verse 2. If a thief is found breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there shall need be no blood guilt for him. That means a person whose home is invaded defended himself and it resulted in the death of the invader. That person is not guilty. They didn't do anything wrong for defending themselves, according to that text. But here's the other part of all of this. Um, and this is where where again I'm telling you, this is what causes trauma for victims of both physical abuse, spiritual abuse, uh, abuses of authority of all kinds, is you're dismissing people's stories because they defended themselves. By defending themselves, they're not credible. And I hear this a lot, and I think I I I can only guess, and I don't know with certainty, but John, if I was to read this chapter uh and have somebody who was uh coming to me with a report about their husband, somebody who they're supposed to submit to. And this female tells me, and she's she's telling me how awful her husband is, how he will uh force her to sit in a dark closet and lock the door on her uh and he'll just feed her under the door. Uh, or you know, he doesn't give her access to the bank accounts, or he doesn't allow her to have a social media account, or he requires that he has passwords to every single thing that she has, and then he gets full disclosure on all of those things, or she's not allowed to process these things with anybody else. He takes he he tells her what she can and cannot say, or what she can and cannot wear. Uh, if she was to come to you, John, and tell you these things, you go, you're just bitter. And because she's speaking dishonoringly about her husband, you would dismiss her story. Um, because her story is self-defense, her story is her defending herself and the reason she's left her husband. Um dude, this is horrible. Like, I don't know how else to interpret this. This is exactly what what the application would be from this quote here. Um tell me I'm wrong here, Josh. Push back on me some because I just don't see like this is so bad. I don't I just think it's gonna hurt more people. Maybe it already has. I mean, if this book has been out for almost, what, 15 years? It's definitely gonna hurt more people.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:15

Um I man, there's nothing to push back on. Um I'm gonna jump to clip eight if you're cool with it. Sure.

unknown 1:49:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:23

Three men in the congregation, Korah, who is a descendant of Levi, and Dathan and Abirum, both descendants of Reuben, gathered together 250 leaders in the congregation, men of renown, against Moses and Aaron and said, You take too much upon yourselves, for all the congregation is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them. Why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the Lord? That is from Numbers chapter 16, verse 3. In simpler words than men, who were in leadership under Moses and Aaron said, Hey guys, why do you exalt yourselves as leaders over us? We are all God's people, and we can obey him without you ordering us around. You've heard it before. If not these exact words, then definitely the message is frequently portrayed by behavior, or subtler words, but it's still the same spirit. You may hear we're all equal, or we're all brothers and sisters, or we all have the Holy Spirit, why should we have to submit to their leadership? These people are convinced they can hear the Lord as well as anyone else can. They understand that a movement within the church called discipleship got out of hand in the 1970s, and submission to leaders teetered out of balance. People were asking pastors about whether they could go on vacations, buy a specific car or other major item, or marry a certain individual. I wasn't involved, so I don't know exactly how far overboard it actually went, but some who were involved said that it ended up being unscription. This movement and other abuses of leadership caused a rebound in the opposite direction. Because spiritual authority had been abused, people opted to despise it. This spawned some extreme free agents and spiritual vagabonds who ran from church to church, convention to convention, and conducted their own prayer meetings and birth their own churches, often because they couldn't find a pastor perfect enough to submit to. This mentality contributed to the secret power of lawlessness that Paul warned would occur in our day. The men who rose up against Moses had been under the abusive authority of Pharaoh. Then Moses came, stepped into their lives, and his authority seemed extreme as well, but in a different sense. At times he brought them greater hardship than they had known with Pharaoh. Perhaps they reasoned that they were out of Egypt. Pharaoh was out of the picture. Moses had served his purpose, and every man was on his own. Those guys had it with authority. It was every man for himself. After all, they were God's people, and authorities meant difficulties. So several of them got together and attacked Moses. I have seen this scenario all too often in my travels. Businessmen, intercessory prayer groups, advisory boards, or other groups within the church gang up on pastors. They've all heard from God, and the pastor is missing it. If they only knew what sphere they were of.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:47

We can agree that people get that they can. Church splits can happen because people are being petty.

unknown 1:50:56

Totally.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:57

They agree that that people can totally be, oh, you're not perfect, you're not, you know, spotless, you're not Jesus, so I'm gonna split and start my own church. Totally a thing. It happens. But also, you've just painted all of these people that have left a church to do their own thing. They left because you know, there's no one holy enough to go to their church. I've got to start my own. Like, I don't think you could do that with like Paul and Barnabas in Acts 15. Like when they split up because there was a legitimate theological dispute on over John Mark and whether he was qualified to do ministry with them or not. Um I I just think that there this is such an oversimplification, a great reductionistic view of like people planting churches and and disagreeing with leadership. Um there's abuse, there's there's theological disagreements, and yeah, if if listen guys, if if you're at my church and I commit some largely heinous sin or I start manipulating you and overusing my authority, leave. You should not stay, right? Like that's all that I'm asking for. I hope, you know, faithfully, if if you're a pastor, you faithfully teach the Bible, you're not manipulating people, right? You're you're you're not in some kind of live unrepentance sin. I can go to your church. Pretty sure I could.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:17

Um, Josh, he mentions the shepherd sheep movement. Uh, and he talks about how the shepherd movement were over. Yeah, the shepherd it was the same thing. Um he mentions how they were overreaching their authority. They were telling people whether they could take vacations, they were telling people who they could could and couldn't marry. Um, let's be really clear. A pastor has authority over his community to teach the scriptures and to uh discipline people who refuse to obey the scriptures or commit sins that are forbidden in scriptures, or uh discipline people who are failing your failing to do what scripture clearly commands us to do, like the regular the gathering together and taking of communion. Um right, that that's that's within the scope of authority that a shepherd has. And he rightly points out how the shepherding movement went too far with this, that they were commanding things that the scriptures do not give shepherds the authority to command. But the problem is, like John, you're contradicting yourself. Earlier you said if a pastor tells you to wear blue socks, you wear the blue socks. Well, which one is it, bro? Which one is it? Because on one side, out of one side of your mouth, you say, obey them unless it they're telling you to commit sin. On the other side, you say the shepherding movement went too far. Well, which one is it? I don't I don't know based on what you've just said. But it seems like the majority of your book is uh shepherd gets get to tell you what to do so long as it's not sin. And then you've got this one little caveat saying the shepherding movement went too far, but you don't actually expose it really. You don't really say this is all off limits. So I I think this is uh uh another area where you don't have clear definitions. Uh again, scope of authority is important here.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:04

Yeah, I think uh another thing that's interesting that I thought about earlier, but I it slipped my mind and I'm glad it came back to me. Imagine there's a young guy in his 20s who has come to my church and he's coming to talk to me and he's like, Josh, I have this situation with a friend. I don't know how to handle it. How do you think I should handle it? I tell them, oh, this is how I think you should handle it. If they've read John Bevere's book, they're gonna think they have to blindly obey what I said when I'm just thinking, oh, I'm giving you some counsel. This is what I think you should do. If you don't do it, I don't care. Like, uh, I'm not gonna urge you on the handle this relationship, but you're not gonna discipline them, right? No, yeah, it depends on what what level of you know seriousness it is involved. Like, hey, I'm living with my girlfriend, move out. I definitely care. But like, hey, I've got this, you know, petty ongoing relationship from a friend with five years ago. How do I handle it? Like, you know, like uh here's here's my two cents. I don't have a dog in the fight. If you don't do it, like as long as it's not unbiblical, I don't really care. You know, like take it or leave it is how I would coach people with advice and saying, like, I'm not saying this as your pastor, I'm saying this as your friend. I've had to do that with some people. Like, hey, this is friend Josh right now, just like talking to you. Um, don't walk away thinking I'm telling you what to do, right? Like, you need to discern this with your spouse, you need to discern this with the Lord, you need to get otherwise counsel, you need to kind of think about this critically because there are people who come from cultures who are just like, you know, what the pastor says goes. And you've got to teach them, you have to unbrainwash them. You have to wash out the brainwashing um because they think that they're completely submitted to you holy. And you become an idol in people's lives, knowingly or unknowingly, in those situations, um, because you become their Holy Spirit. Okay, Miller, I anything else to add on this one? I'm I'm happy to to to move. I know we didn't really mention the core.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:51

I'll say something in the chat. Someone's mentioning in the chat that that people are calling John a heretic. You and I are not calling them a heretic. We we think heresy is reserved for those that would leave you lead you outside of the faith. Um I mean, the abuses he's enabling might lead somebody to deconstruct, but but I don't think that's a direct law gospel distinction.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:10

I might get kind of squishy on that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:12

Yeah, that that actually that that actually might get squishy, which maybe it's probably gonna be a Patreon episode that we'll have to film. I don't know. We'll figure out time, Josh, on that one. We don't have enough time today to go through the law gospel distinctions that he fails to to make. Um but the point is we don't think John is a heretic, at least not uh so far. We we've not given any kind of evidence of that. We think he is definitely wrong, to the point where this book is incredibly dangerous and it enables narcissistic abusers to abuse people without repercussion or accountability.

unknown 1:56:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:41

Let's keep going.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:42

Yeah, I'm gonna do clip nine.

SPEAKER_04 1:56:45

Earlier in this book, we discussed the consequences of disobedience to God's authority. Those who willfully rebel come under a curse. Ham learned this truth the hard way. He dishonored, and thus showed contempt for God's delegated authority on Noah, which brought a curse on Ham's generations. It is interesting that Ham's transgression brought severe consequences on him, while Noah's drunkenness brought none that was recorded. The moral failure of Noah became a test to his three sons, revealing the heart of each in turn. One was rebellious and foolish, and two were honorable and merciful. Noah did not set the best example of his drunkenness, yet his behavior was God's to deal with, not those under him. Two sons understood this and continued to honor him. One took matters into his own hands to dishonor and shame his father, and he brought upon his head the very curse he thought destined for his father. Shem and Japheth would not so much as look at their father's failure. They didn't want to observe or to allow others, wives and children, to see his condition, so they covered him. Because they maintained a reverence for their father's position, they protected his position and their hearts. Ham, however, mocked and discredited his father, in a possible attempt to discredit his ability to rule. This provided him with an excuse to disobey his father when he so desired. This is true of anyone, when insubordination dwells in his heart, but by disqualifying authority, he feels released from submission. In his heart, he casts off restraint. In God's Hall of Fame, recorded in Hebrews chapter 11, God boasts about Noah's faith and obedience, but we don't find Ham listed. Wasn't Ham right? Wasn't Noah drunk and naked? Yes, Ham was 100% accurate in what he reported, yet he was wrong in principle. Reasoning would justify his actions, he reported only what he'd seen. He was only being truthful. Yet the principles of obedience and reverence say otherwise. Shem and Japheth honored their father, and were blessed. Many, like Ham, are accurate in what they report about leaders. Yet they are wrong by God's standards. They have dishonored another and lost their blessing. They live in the foolishness of their own understanding and reasoning. They lack the hearts of David, Shem, and Japheth.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:59

Well, if you've got little kids in the room, things are about to get weird, so I'd encourage you to hit pause on that YouTube video. If you're in the car, crank in some remnant tunes as you drive down the road. You might want to pause this guy, turn down the volume. I'm really dragging it out so you have enough time to turn this off. Because we're going to be talking about Genesis chapter 9. It's not just about looking at your dad naked. Uh it is more about um so there's there's a claim that some have claimed that this is a sin of voyeurism, that that he is looking upon his father's nakedness in like a lustful way. Um, I don't think that's accurate to the text. Uh, the others argue that maybe something homosexual took place with dad. I also don't think that's accurate to the text. I actually think the scriptures themselves interpret this event in Leviticus. Miller, you want to take it away?

SPEAKER_02 1:58:49

So just to be clear, the Bible will often use expressions that were well known and understood by the culture which with which they were written to. Uh we have this all the time. Like we say the words um about the, I don't know, the the in the NBA, the bulls wiped the floor with them, right? Michael Jordan is the goat. Do we mean he's a goat? Do we mean they literally use a floor to mop like these people's bodies to mop the floor? No, they're expressions that mean something. The Bible has expressions. And in this case, one of them happens to be uncover the nakedness of your father. And here's the other benefit: is we actually have an explanation of what that expression is. Uh, here's Leviticus 18, six or seven. None of you shall approach any one of his close relatives to uncover nakedness. I am Lord. You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother. She is your mother. You shall not uncover her nakedness. What does it mean to uncover the nakedness of your father? It means to sleep with your father's wife. This is referring to a sexual relationship. Uh, this is precisely what Absalom is guilty of doing to David. He uncovers the nakedness of David by sleeping with David's wives openly in the eyes of all of Israel. Leviticus 20, verse 17. If a man takes his sister, a daughter of his father, or daughter of his mother, and sees her nakedness, and she sees his nakedness, it is a disgrace, and they shall be cut off in the sight of the children of their children of the people. He has uncovered his sister's nakedness, and he shall bear his iniquity. Notice here that the penalty here is death. Is this is it the death penalty for accidentally seeing somebody unclothed? Or is it the death penalty for committing the sin of incest? Um, what we're seeing here, that the reason why uh Noah cursed Canaan and not Ham was because of Canaan being the likely the offspring of Ham and Noah's wife. And thus we have a cursed people group known as the Canaanites. They were born from the ancestral relationship of Ham and his mother. Uh, he doesn't curse Ham. He curses Ham's descendants after him because this was an ungodly union that should have never happened. And so um again, I I think this is a common misinterpretation of a text. I doubt John Bevere is the only one out there that's done this, but it but um there becomes a problem because he's creating an application uh when it comes to covering up sin. We we've talked about this in the past, uh, and this is exactly what Mike Winger has done a good job of exposing, what he has affectionately, I don't know if it's so affectionate, uh, coined the phrase of cover up culture. It is this passage that's often used to tell people not to expose sin. The thing is, this would be an inference from a wrong interpretation of a text versus other clear texts, like we mentioned earlier in Ephesians, that we're we are supposed to expose things that are done in darkness, wicked deeds. So here's John Bevere saying we don't expose, while we have clear, well, it based on a wrong interpretation of a text, where we have very, very explicit text saying we absolutely are required to expose. Uh Josh.

SPEAKER_05 2:02:04

Yeah, man, I think that's good. Uh here's the thing the the application that he is making, which is we don't expose, we have to honor. These two kids honored their father in his sin. This guy dishonored his father in his sin, is not what happened, and that's not why he was cursed. Um, Leviticus is going to say that this is a curse to do this kind of activity. So it wasn't even Noah being in this position of leadership, just kind of unilaterally cursing um anyone by his own authority, his own prerogative. It was the kind of eternal ethic, the moral code of God that Noah was certainly pronouncing, but it was God who was doing the cursing here because um Noah's son had done what was unrighteous in God's sight. Uh look, man, I've got two we're at two hours and one minute. My wife is texting me, you need to come home, honey. Um, and because I respect my wife and I don't demand that she submit to me, I'm gonna watch one more video. Um I'm not gonna lord authority over her. I'm gonna watch one more video. I know you want to watch both, Miller, but I I don't have it in the tank, buddy.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:08

Especially because of how much the the number 11 is so bad for women in particular. That's why come on.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:14

Josie, I'm defending women. Let me do this. Uh okay, I'm gonna watch we're gonna do clip number two. We're two hours deep, though. This ain't a Mike Winger video. Okay, let's let's let's do this.

SPEAKER_04 2:03:27

Judgment comes to those who resist authority. Touch authority, and you touch God. I worked for two international ministries before pioneering our own. I saw consistent judgment as a result of resistance to authority. He came in many forms, yet never failed to come. It was especially evident when employees were let go. No matter how unreasable the leader or the circumstances were, if they criticized or reviled the leader, if they drank of bitterness, they eventually ended up in greater difficulties. For some, it was their finances, for others, jobs, for others, health problems, for others, problems with their children, and some suffered marriage problems.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:48

The list is Wait, someone suffered job problems, money problems, and marriage problems after being fired? Crazy. For criticizing Well, it could be because of criticism, but they were criticizing after they were fired. So who knows? Oh, gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 2:04:10

The blessed and honored them whenever the subject arose. They knew God was their source, and he'd provide for them, care for them, and in turn promote them. I watched them enter positions that were better than they'd had on our staff. I've crossed paths with some of them years later, and they are still blessed in their lives. How do you keep a sweet spirit? Jesus gave us a secret, but I say you, love your enemies. Bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you. For Matthew chapter 5, 44. He told us who should pray for those who spitefully use or use us. When we do this, our hearts are healed and cannot become critical or jaded. I have learned through the scriptures, and seeing confirmed through life experiences, those who speak against authority bring certain judgment on themselves. Consider Miriam and Aaron, while they were at Hazoth, Miriam and Aaron criticized Moses because he had married Cushite woman, as recorded in Numbers chapter 12, verse 1, in the New Living Translation. First, let's discuss who Miriam and Aaron were. Miriam was the sister of Moses. Let me also point out she was his older sister. God called her a prophetess, as noted in Exodus chapter 15, verse 20. Aaron was the older brother of Moses, as well as the high priest. So we are speaking about two people with significant positions of leadership and notoriety. They criticized Moses for marrying a Cushite woman. A Cushite is a native or inhabitant of the ancient land of Cush, identified by most scholars as Ethiopia, a country in northeastern Africa. The woman was not a descendant of Abraham. She was outside the covenant of Abraham. Miriam and Aaron believed Moses had sinned, or at best, made a bad decision by marrying his daughter of Africa, especially since he was a leader. Were they correct, in their opinion? It would appear. So if we go by the letter of the law, God had made known his desire for the children of Israel to marry among themselves. He warned that foreign wives would draw away their hearts to foreign gods. This command was given in Deuteronomy. For Moses to marry a foreigner seemed a contradiction. It probably reasoned his influence was too visible and great to behave that way. Note, our only command today is that we are not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers. It is no longer a natural bloodline issue, but a spiritual one, as seen in Galatians chapter 3 verse 28. Passing judgment on him with criticism was out of order. As older brother and sister they could have discussed it as a family matter with him, but to gossip among themselves, or to discuss his behavior within the congregation, was absolutely a sin. What? God referred to Aaron as Moses' spokesperson or prophet. Aaron spoke the messages of God to Pharaoh. Aaron was used to bring forth a prophetic psalm that we still have in the scriptures, but they definitely had spiritual gifts. Yet their error was using spiritual gifts or abilities above authority.

SPEAKER_05 2:06:07

He contradicted himself in his own paragraph. I know. He says Aaron can't rebuke Moses, but he rebuked Pharaoh. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:06:24

This and other scriptures identify the overseer of the gifts as the Holy Spirit. Some of the gifts are the ability to lead, the ability to teach, the grace to give, the prophecy, the gifts of healings, the discerning of spirits, and working in miracles, are found in 1 Corinthians chapter 12, verses 7 through 10, and in Romans chapter 12, verses 6 through 8. Paul continued, There are differences of ministries of the same Lord. In 1 Corinthians chapter 12, verses 4 and 5. The Greek word for ministries is the Akonia. According to Thayer's Greek dictionary, this word is used to depict the office of the apostles in its administration, and of prophets, evangelists, elders, and so forth. Simply put, this word is used to describe the five offices of spiritual authority within the church. From this scripture we see the Lord, or Jesus, is over these offices. Another passage confirms this. When Jesus was raised from the dead, Paul wrote, He himself gave some to the apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ. In Ephesians chapter 4, verses 11 and 12. The authority of the kingdom flows down through the offices, not the gift, as all authority was given to Jesus by the Father after his resurrection, as stated in Matthew chapter 28, verse 18. Jesus and Tom gave the five full ministries as designated from the passage in Ephesians. Therefore his authority flows through appointed offices. We must keep before us the fact that a person can be more gifted than his pastor, yet the pastor who stands in the office of authority is over the gifted person. I could give so many examples of the tragic consequences that occur when someone who was gifted elevates himself or herself in their own eyes. One being an assisted pastor on a church staff who was very gifted to preach and teach. His classes were crowded, standing room only, as the gift of God in his life was evident. He led prayer once a week, and his sessions were heavily attended. The more popular he became, the more free he felt to criticize the established policies of the church, and the senior pastor himself. He said the senior pastor's policies restricted the move of the Holy Spirit, and he shared this insight with those around him. His critical attitude spilled over to another assistant pastor. After a while they jointly led the prayer service on his appointed evening. One night the lead pastor slipped in the back of the building during prayer and watched as the two assistant pastors conducted the service exactly the way he had told them not to do it. Instead of making intercession for the church, the city, and the lost, they were drawing the people into other forms of prayer and rebuking them if they felt they weren't doing it right. The people were confused. Both men were gifted ministers, yet they weren't submitted to the authority of the church. The seriousness of their offense was covered by the fact the Lord was using them to speak and minister to his people. Now Moses was more humble than any other person on earth. So immediately the Lord called to Moses, and said, Go out to the tabernacle, all three of you. And the three of them went out. This is recorded in Numbers chapter 12, verses 3 and 4 in the New Living Translation. Through this scripture, we glimpse one of God's character requirements for his desired leaders. Humility. Moses was the most humble man on earth, but that would not have been Miriam and Aaron's description of him. The reason would have been more along the lines. He has gotten just a little too big for his bridges. The Lord called the three of them out to the tabernacle. Other translations use the word suddenly instead of immediately. Judgment often comes without warning. As the three headed out, it is quite possible Miriam was not in Aaron. Get ready. Moses blew it at marrying this foreign girl. God is going to make you the leader now because you have been so right in your behavior. This kind of reasoning occurs when we open ourselves to deception through resisting authority. But of course, what actually happened was very different. God called Aaron and Miriam forward. You reminded them he entrusted Moses with his entire house, and he spoke with him face-to-face, or directly, not in riddles. Then God poses this question. Should you not be afraid to criticize him? As written in verse 8, in New Living Translation. When we criticize authority, we expose a lack of the fear of the Lord. Listen to what happens. The Lord was furious with them, and he departed. As the cloud moved from above the tabernacle, Miriam suddenly became white as snow with leprosy. From Numbers chapter 12, verses 9 and 10 in the New Living Translation. By resisting authority, we bring judgment on ourselves. This judgment can include a lifting of God's presence coupled with some form of calamity. Returning to the two pastors I discussed earlier, it wasn't long before both left the church, was let go, the other resigned before he was to be released. One started his own church down the road, and struggled with a very small congregation that never grew above hundred. As an associate, he had more than six hundred people under his care. Shortly after his departure, he experienced a personal family tragedy. The other associate left the city and enjoyed a measure of ministry success for a short season. His church grew to a few hundred members, but he felt isolated and distrustful of most everyone. After more than twenty years, he suffered many church slits, and his style of leadership brought much confusion to his community. He eventually left the city. He was the most inspiring and sought-out communicator in our large church years earlier. Many believed he would significantly impact the nation. Tragically, his stubbornness possibly set an alternate course for his life.

SPEAKER_05 2:09:24

Okay. I'm going to start up at the top, work my way down if that's okay with you, Miller. I'll I'll address a few of these things. But Moses, first of all, didn't break the law. Moses married his wife in Exodus 2, 21 through 22. The law is not given until Exodus 21 through for uh chapter 24. And Romans 4, 15 says, The long the law brings wrath, but where there is no law, there is no transgression. Speaking of a time before the law, that there is no transgression of the law. Moses in his marriage existed before the law, therefore he could not have violated the law to divorce his wife after marrying her, and then the covenant being instilled would have been breaking the law of God. So he does not do this. Um you're wrong. Miriam and Aaron were not right in saying that he broke the law. That's not true. Number two, let's just pretend for a moment that you're right. Moses really broke the law, and Miriam and Aaron opposed Moses' uh sin. If that's what you're saying, because that's what you're saying. That's what you how how your argument flows here. If that's the case, then Samuel is wrong when he confronts Saul. Nathan is wrong when he confronts David. Jeremiah is wrong when he confronts the false prophets and kings, Ezekiel, Nehemiah. I mean, you go through the list, virtually every minor and major prophet, they're the bad guys. You have one story here that is more about them rebelling against God because God speaks to Moses face to face, and there'd be another prophet that would arise, like Moses in the last days, who speaks to God face to face. That's Jesus, spoiler alert. Uh, if you haven't read that far, that's where it goes. Uh Jesus, and if you don't listen to Jesus, it will be accounted to you. In the same way, if you don't listen to Moses, the first covenant giver, he uh it will be accounted against you. Uh so yes, Moses is a specie unique prophet that speaks to God face to face, and when they are rebelling against Moses in this account, who is giving decrees from Yahweh, they are rebelling against Yahweh. In the same way, if I told someone, don't commit adultery on your wife, and they look at me and they say, You're not my authority, I prophesy too. Yes, they're rebelling against God in that situation because I'm giving them God's word. Um, it's not to say, oh, because he's a leader, if you disagree with him, you're rebelling against God. No, if you're giv if you're receiving the word of God and you're rebelling against that word, no matter who the intermediary is, man, woman, child, infant, young, or old, slave-free, rich, poor, if you if they're bringing to you the word of the Lord in the scriptures and you rebel against that, yes, you're rebelling against God. I concede the floor. The floor is yours, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:20

Uh I don't know where to start on this. I have a few criticisms. Um, he gets into his own ecclesiology. He claims that the five-fold gifts that are mentioned in Ephesians 4 are not just gifts, but offices. Um, no, they're not. They're nowhere expressed as offices unless you're talking about the twelve. They seem to have offices. The prophets of the Old Testament, the judges of the Old Testament, the priesthood of the Old Testament. They have offices. Um, but but that's not what this is in Ephesians 4. They're called gifts. The offices of the church are elders. Deacon and member. And so there's also this whole like covering flow, like the power and authority flows down from this top office called apostles. You've got this fake ecclesiology, and therefore you're going to add this application of blessing that comes from it. Now it's not just in this passage, but other parts of this book. I'm sorry, you're living in a fictitious world. That's not a world God set up. The other part about this is what you've just said is by speaking critically about a leader in any capacity, because Miriam and Aaron spoke critically about Moses. One, it's a failure to recognize the unique position Moses had in the Eschadon. Um, right, Moses was an old covenant bringer. He had a unique relationship with God. We spoke face to face, not so with the other prophets, but then he spoke spoken dreams and visions, right? There was a direct command that the people had to obey everything that Moses said. If they didn't do this, then they would God would hold it, hold them accountable to it. That's not how he treats all the other prophets. Um, so what this does is it creates a fear system where if you don't obey that leader, again, you're not obeying God, which is really your premise from the very get-go. Uh you're not trying to make that premise proven here at the end of the book. Um, I have a problem with this, and I actually I'm seriously curious, uh, John Bever, where you got this ideology. Um, I have heard multiple reports about Michael Coleanis' ministry, Jesus Image, where people would tell the story of them sitting in a class where Michael or Jessica Kuleanis relayed to them a story about somebody who was going to testify against Benny Henn in court and how they came against God's anointed and the man died the night before he was supposed to testify. And so they they interpret that as God's judgment, and therefore the application for the students in their Jesus school is don't speak against the anointed Michael Kulianos or Jessica Kulianos or you'll face judgment. John Bevere, that's exactly what you're endorsing here. You're saying that you will come under this kind of judgment if you speak against some anointed leader uh by God. But how do you know who the one is that it that's anointed, first off? But secondly, you're wrong.

SPEAKER_05 2:15:04

Hillary Clinton must be super anointed because she was a leader. Well, because people speak against her and they just die. Oh, right.

unknown 2:15:12

Keep going.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:15

No, you got as you were as you were, as you were. I'm sorry, but here's here's what this actually does. This is a fear tactic to silence people. It doesn't matter what that leader does, when you share that story, then what is it? The the application is you speak against me or you speak against these other leaders. God is gonna judge you. That's what you're saying here. That's fear tactic, and it causes people to go silent. All right. So throw on top of that the NDAs, the non-disparagement agreements that they're required to sign to be a student in those schools. Um, yep, I'm saying that. I've actually seen them myself. I have evidence of this. Um, but these are all fear tactics. They do not belong in the church, they have no place. Uh, and and these kinds of threats of God's judgments are exactly the kinds of threats that abusive people use to silence those they abuse. And I don't think you're an abuser, John. I really don't. I don't have any reports of that. No testimonies have come my way. Maybe there's some out there, but this is exactly the kind of person you're enabling, is someone like a Michael Kulianis, whose father-in-law is Benny Hinn. And I can't help but wonder if you guys are hearing and drinking from the same source. Um, this is extraordinarily problematic. Uh, you've just endorsed these kinds of threats. These threats themselves are abusive by their very nature. Um, I don't know how else to say it. See it there, bud. Uh man, you need to you need to revise this quickly. This is bad. Um, you also equate criticism of the leader with not having fear of the Lord. This is the passage where you do it. Um meanwhile, you're criticizing anybody who criticizes as just drinking from bitterness. Those are your words, not mine. Um, so having a criticism, here's the thing: it's not bad. In fact, I want people around me who have criticism for me. That criticism is actually helping me grow. All right, we're told that the wounds from a friend are actually a good thing. And so you need to have people around you that criticize. And maybe their criticisms are not always accurate, and certainly we don't want somebody who only criticizes, but I actually need people around me who think critically, who can evaluate what I'm doing. Every week, after I finish a sermon on Sunday, um, I will often sit down with my executive pastor to say, hey, anything I need to grow in with my sermon. Why? Why do I do that? Because I don't want to think that I'm always doing great on it and there's always room to reform and grow. It's one of those Protestant values we have called sempa reformanda, meaning we are always reforming. And if you actually believe that sanctification is an ongoing process, then we need other believers around us to help us in that process. It's the whole reason why uh we're commanded to be in the communion of the saints. Not the whole reason, it's one major reason. Um but you're actually silencing that criticism. Again, this is where you create an echo chamber of your own making. You encourage people to become yes men, and if they have a criticism, well, they're gonna be judged for it. So you actually silence criticism in favor of uh only telling you what you want to hear. You you also do this you equate having a small ministry with God's judgment. Like let me let me just explain that again. So Jesus with John the Baptist, I I mean, uh going down the line, Jeremiah uh basically they were not faithful if their ministry was small. Um, Jesus lost a lot of people in his ministry. Remember, you mentioned a guy whose church shrunk down from like massive to nothing. Um but guess what? Jesus actually, his ministry shrunk too. Remember when he told people that if they want to enter his kingdom, they have to eat his flesh and drink his blood? Man, was Jesus coming under God's judgment because his ministry shrunk? Because a lot of disciples left him after he gave that teaching. Um those two things are not the same thing. Small ministry does not necessarily mean judgment from God, especially judgment for having criticized leaders. Otherwise, again, um, Jesus, Jeremiah, I mean, you could very well say that Jesus having criticized the ministry of the Pharisees, or there access a ministry in Matthew chapter 12, right? He says those demons come back with seven other spirits more evil than themselves, versus Jesus' ministry. Um did he come under God's judgment, and that's why people left his discipleship? Like, tell me exactly where I'm supposed to apply this because you're equating things that just don't add up.

SPEAKER_05 2:19:52

Yeah, so slander, gossip, judgment. You keep using these words. I don't think they mean what you think they mean. Like you just uh like over and over. Okay. Miller, I was like, hey, we gotta wrap this up quickly. You you you beat me at the longest monologue, I think, there. Okay, uh sorry. Any kind of closing thoughts, man? Dude, it's we're we're gonna be a two and a half hour video. That's the thing. It's like it's it's 2.19 right now and counting. Uh this is maybe the longest live we've done in a long time.

SPEAKER_02 2:20:21

I I have to say this one more thing. I'm sorry, but yeah, the statements he makes about Lisa Bevere and how she had criticisms and she didn't trust him and how basically that was her fault for not trusting him. Dude, you're wrong. Um, I'm in a situation right now. My wife, we have three kids. I have a baby, uh, I have a traveling itinerant ministry, I have a pastoral job, I have an LLC that I run called Overcomers Journal. I have a lot going on. And I do all those things to help provide for my family. We are in over our head. My wife is stressed out. But when she comes to me and she tells me her stress, I don't say, you're just not trusting God. You're just not giving all of these things to God. That's literally what you do to your wife, Lisa. No, I actually affirm my wife's reality. Her world is overwhelming. She's got way too much on her plate. We both do. And it's just hard. Um, but what you did was you minimized her experience in life. Um, you sinned against your wife. I'm sorry, that's exactly what you did. You minimized her world and made her feel small and insubordinate to God on top of already feeling overwhelmed. I don't know how you have a marriage. Um, I'm sorry, that's called being programmed. Um that's what I think of that.

SPEAKER_05 2:21:32

I think you said subordinate to God, but I think you meant subordinate to him. Um, it's the same in his eyes. It's it's a gross quote. Here's the thing we have the PDF uh from our show notes with all of our commentary in it. Uh we'll toss it up on Patreon. It's 25 pages of what you guys just heard us talk about, minus one last video we didn't have time to get, and the law of gospel confusion, that distinction. We'll put the the document up on Patreon. It's a Google Doc. You guys can go check it out. And uh we'll yeah. We'll let resource you guys. There's some serious problems here. Um future videos probably coming out because we really milked this one dry. Guys, thank you so much for tuning into this episode. Here's the thing this is not beat up on John time. We're not angry with him. Again, at the top of the city. The last part I was angry. No, it was it was bad though. Uh I think tones gotta match to the text, and that last part was pretty gross. Um so uh when John uh when Miller was talking about that, he was sourcing a part of the book. He wasn't just like, oh, I heard this story. Um in the book, she's overwhelmed, she comes to him, she's talking to him. He's like, he he says, Oh, you should just give it to God and rolls over and goes back to sleep, kind of thing. Um, instead of like actually caring for his wife, and then you know, God speaks to her and works all this out. Um anyway, it's it's not great. Uh I'm yeah, prayerful about all this. Uh I'm not trying to, we're not trying to beat up John in here. I think what we're trying to do is to say, hey, look, this teaching is pervasive throughout the church, whether it's coming from John or other people, um, we've got to address it succinctly. Here's a place where a lot of that was done for us in writing, and we don't have to like box an invisible boogeyman. We can actually engage with explicit teaching. So um I would ask you guys, share this around. Uh I hope uh it's helpful. Leave us a comment below if you agree, disagree. For making mountains out of the molehills, tell us. We want to engage with you in the comments section. Make sure that you're not sure. You're telling them they can disagree with us, they're not being discorpent. Insubordinate, unsubmissive. Correct. You I mean, God might kill you, but uh we comment at your own risk. Uh here. So I think we're gonna get flagged on YouTube for that. It was a joke. Uh okay, so uh comment section. Feel free to leave a comment. You'll need to be subscribed though, uh, because we try to get rid of all the bots and spammers. So make sure to subscribe to the channel and you can leave a comment anytime you want. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in. We'll see you next time.