What Happens When the Breakthrough Doesn't Come? | Dr. Craig Keener on Suffering

Have you ever prayed for a breakthrough that never came, and wondered what that says about your faith? Dr. Craig Keener, one of the most respected New Testament scholars, says we're only looking at half the story. He joins Remnant Radio to explore the theology of suffering - not as a theological afterthought for the Spirit-filled believer, but an essential part of the story Scripture actually tells.

ABOUT THE EPISODE:
Dr. Craig Keener, F.M. and Ada Thompson Professor of Biblical Studies at Asbury Theological Seminary, has spent his career defending the biblical and historical case for the miraculous. His two-volume Miracles is an essential read for believers (also available in his shorter version Miracles Today). His newest book on suffering turns to the question that so often gets left unanswered: what do we do when we've prayed, and prayed, and the diagnosis doesn't change?

Keener explores what Scripture actually shows us about suffering and healing side by side, including in the lives of the apostles. The conversation moves through difficult ground in Christian theology: whether suffering can be God's will, how the crucifixion holds together the greatest evil and the greatest good in human history, and why the two churches in Revelation given no correction from Christ are the two enduring persecution.

This isn't an argument against miracles. Keener has given his career to defending them. Rather, it's an invitation to hold suffering and hope together, the way Scripture always has.

0:00 – Introduction
2:06 – Keener's Testimony and Ministry
4:16 – Why Write About Suffering
8:38 – Western vs Global Suffering
14:19 – The Problem of Evil
15:55 – Miracles as Foretaste
23:10 – Purpose Found in Suffering
32:52 – Keener's Divorce and PTSD
41:34 – Faith Defined Rightly
44:46 – Birth Pangs and New Creation
54:16 – Caring for the Poor
58:48 – God's Will and Suffering

ABOUT THE GUEST:
- Dr. Craig Keener's website — https://craigkeener.com
- Suffering: Its Meaning for the Spirit-Filled Life by Craig S. Keener  https://a.co/d/0iO8MUtB
- Miracles Today https://a.co/d/0i145Az1
- Miracles : 2 Volumes: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts https://a.co/d/0gOxo5Ar

Subscribe to The Remnant Radio newsletter and receive our FREE introduction to spiritual gifts eBook. Plus, get access to: discounts, news about upcoming shows, courses and conferences - and more. Subscribe now at TheRemnantRadio.com.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Hey everybody, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. I'm joined today with Dr. Craig Keener, and we're going to be talking about suffering from a Christian Worldview. It's going to be an exciting program. You guys stay tuned. Hey guys, welcome back to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio. For those of you who are frequent on the podcast, we have a guest who's been on quite a few times before with us, Dr. Craig Keener. And today we're talking about his new book on suffering. It's going to be an exciting program, but before we dive in, I want to remind you of all the things going on here at Remnant Radio. We've got conferences, we've got courses, we've got so much going on. The best way to stay up to date on all of those things is go over to the website, thermnantradio.com, and sign up for our newsletter so that you get discounts and updates when those things go live. I can't recall the timing and the release of this video, but I will tell you that on August 16th, the early bird registration for the conference will come to an end. So if this video by chance has been released before that, I would encourage you to make sure to sign up for that newsletter so you get that promo code and get the early bird access. And then August 19th, we're releasing our introduction to spiritual gifts course. I think greatly impacted by Dr. Craig Keener and much of his work. And if you're interested in signing up for that as well, you can find it over at the website, theRubinetRadio.com. August 19th is going to be the start date for registration. So encourage everyone to go check that out. Without further ado, Dr. Keener, hey, thank you so much for coming on. It's good to good to see you again, man.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yeah, it's great to great to be with you, Josh.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Hey, tell uh tell some folks who are out there who haven't been to the channel before, haven't read your your mini works. What are we up to now? Are we high 40s, 50s? Where are we at in books these days?

SPEAKER_01 2:20

About 40.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

About 40. Okay, okay. Well, I've got uh Gospel of John, I've got the two sets on Acts, and then I've got uh miracles hanging out on my bookshelf right behind me, and I think I have more at home too. Uh but but for people who haven't read the content you've produced, tell us a little about yourself and your ministry for people who can you know get a little bit more familiar with you.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Sure. I was converted from atheism about 50 years ago, which lets you know I'm pretty old. But anyway, um I had to try to catch up with the kids in Sunday school and more about the Bible than I did. They knew the Bible's I found out if you read 40 chapters of the Bible a day, you can get through the New Testament once a week or through the Bible once a month. And eventually catch up with the kids in Sunday school. And I ended up um I went to Simsagod Bible school and seminary, then went to Duke for my PhD, was ordained in a black Baptist church. Um my wife, May Dean, was a refugee in in Congo where she's from. Uh after actually after she did her PhD. And we uh we've been married now for I guess 22 years, 20 24 years. Okay, it changes every year, it's hard to keep up. And then um Yeah, I love to write commentaries because I love to stay in the Bible, but sometimes I write other books dealing more with themes just because I feel like the Lord wants me to. Is that a good summary? Yeah, that's a great summary. I'm a professor of biblical studies at Asbury Theological Seminary, and I'm an absent-minded professor, which is why I f forget to mention certain things.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

I think I'm 35. Um, so it's it's just the way some human minds work, and I totally get it. Uh let's let's change this every year. It's just it's a constant moving target. How am I supposed to remember that? Nicaea never changes. Um uh let's talk a little bit about your book on suffering. Uh why'd you write it? Um tell us a little about the inspiration there.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

I just I felt for a long time like the church in the U.S. isn't really ready for suffering, the kind of suffering that so many of our brothers and sisters in other parts of the world are going through on a regular basis. And I felt like eventually I felt like I needed to write the book. And actually, one time I was at a a conference and Kim Moss was um leading a um discussion, a panel in which I was one of the people, and she asked me what I was doing, and I told her I was writing this book. She said, Hmm, I've been praying lately. I feel like the church in the U.S. needs a a book on suffering, and I keep feeling like you're the one to write it. So that felt like a good confirmation that I should write the book.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yeah, I think I think so. I mean, for me, I'll tell you that the uh you you and I both exist in the continuationist space. We believe the gifts of the Spirit have continued. And and I'll tell you uh I I don't mean to uh pretend as if I have surveyed all of the writings of charismatic theologians, but when we talk about suffering, it doesn't seem one that that gets high on the list, at least maybe down on the ground level when it comes to all of the folks that I'm doing ministry with, a robust theology of suffering does seem to be lacking within charismatic worldview. It's there's a lot of kind of vain triumphalism. Um there might even be good categories of like, oh yeah, my future home is not here. It's in a it's in a later day, uh, but still I'm I'm believing for all the things now. And and we want to believe, we want to contend for healing and we want to contend for breakthrough in people's lives. But but what do we learn? What do we how do we grow? How do we deal with that kind of disappointment and engage with that suffering? And I think that it's an extremely valuable and important work. And for it to come from a continuationist scholar, I think should have some weight within these charismatic spaces. Now, that wasn't so much of a question, but I feel like maybe you can engage with some of that a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, and that's especially US charismatics. So, you know, if you ask uh Pentecostals in Romania who endured under Czechesco's regime, or um Chinese charismatics or whoever, I mean, there there are a lot of uh charismatics who do engage more with suffering, but we have been partly impacted by the American dream, but then also impacted by certain developments in the charismatic movement that really didn't belong so much. Well, some some streams of it go way back, but like like the prosperity idea, that historically wasn't part of early Pentecostalism so much. That especially came in the 1950s and then um more pervaded a lot of charismatic circles in later decades. And and the idea that we we trust God to supply our needs, the idea that we trust God to um supply our needs for what he's called us to do, I mean, those are good things. Um that itself inviting us to faith, that's a sacrifice itself. I mean that but um in this in this life we often get other things along the way. Even when I was writing the books on miracles, so this is kind of a if you're gonna talk about miracles, you also need to talk about suffering. You don't get miracles, you don't need a miracle without suffering something to begin with, normally. So it's it's an important subject.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Yeah, so the the this concept of suffering, you know, you you open up chapter one telling a couple of uh interesting stories about Bonhoffer, um, you know, and uh uh the story of a boy who's misinterpreting his father's commands, and we do the same kind of things with Jesus. And to your point, I thought it was a good point that that is probably plagued a lot with Western Christianity, that Western Christianity is probably going to wrestle with this in a way that is maybe distinctly different than the rest of the world. Um, and I say the rest of the world, uh Western nations that that have a certain level of comfort and have seemed to eradicate things like you know, starvation. Like you'd have to try pretty hard to starve in America. Now, I I know there's gonna be a lot of argumentation out there to say like that's not the case, but like there's so many churches, there's so many food pantries, there's so many opportunities, like there's uh really good infrastructure here in a way that just aren't in other parts of the world. So like the way that we suffer here can be, oh, you know, um my the AC in my second car is not working, you know? Uh and it's like, okay, you know, like when you think about all of human history, I I cracked the back of my iPhone. Uh and it's like, wait, you have an iPhone that has the mastery of all information on the planet at the touch of a fingertip. Um, you know, so the the concept of suffering in Western societies is is pretty unique. But for those who haven't had the chance to read the book yet, could you tell us a little bit about the story that you mentioned in Bonhoeffer, the story of the boy who kind of misunderstands his father's commands and how we apply maybe a similar interpretive lens to the commands and teachings of Jesus when it comes to suffering?

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yeah, the boy doesn't he reasons. I don't think my father meant that command literally, even though it's for the boy's own good. We sometimes do that with Jesus' teaching. Now he doesn't mean everything literally. You know, there's a lot of hyperbole, so we have to reason carefully, but the basis for our reasoning can't be just, oh, that's inconvenient. I I don't want to I don't want to do that. We've got a lot of teachings of Jesus about sharing with those in need. And even here in America, it's estimated that about 20%, about one-fifth of children in America suffer hunger. Um, I'm not sure how they get the statistic, but in in some, it's it's more common in some places than in others. So I think it's like one-third of children in single-parent homes, you know, and we say, well, why why be single parent? It's not always the single parent's fault that they're single parents. Sometimes it's the other parents' fault that they're single parents, or or sometimes somebody died or or whatever. But it's true that we don't experience things on the same level as some other places. So, like around here, sometimes it's hard for somebody to get a doctor because you know there's a shortage of doctors in in this region who are available to take new patients. But in Democratic Republic of Congo, there's one doctor for every million people. Try getting an appointment with a doctor who has potentially a million people to take care of. Uh the people who stay there, uh, Dennis McQuege, is that his name? Uh, is a Pentecostal doctor treating uh he and his clinic treating thousands, maybe maybe over a hundred thousand rape victims or more, um, in very dangerous circumstances. The doctors who stay there, uh he actually won the Nobel Peace Prize, but the doctors who stay there are are staying there because of the need, but it's not a convenient place to be a doctor. So you can understand why they have a shortage of doctors. At the same time, what we regard as uh suffering here, like you said, uh for most people it's not on the same not anywhere close to the same level. I mean, we've got maybe I think a million homeless people in the US but worldwide there's like a hundred million homeless people. Um so many migrants over I forget the exact statistics, but uh it's like I think it's the majority uh of migrants, especially forced migrants in the world are actually Christians. Many of them displaced because of persecution for their faith and other things. In Nigeria a couple years ago, according to some statistics, almost 10,000 Christians in northern Nigeria, where I spent three summers. So I was familiar with this uh phenomenon already in the 1990s, but but not at this level. I think 2024 estimated nearly 10,000 Christians, men, women, children, were murdered for their faith. So we're talking about serious suffering in many parts of the world, some parts of which we hear about in the news and some parts we don't hear about so much in the news.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yeah, you know, Craig, you're you're uh a bit of a biblicist, right? Like we you and I both want to hang out in the text. When I say biblicist, I know that has a whole lot of different connotations for a lot of different people. But like we like to hang out in the text. We're comfortable there. But I might want to toss over some philosophical questions for you. I mean, when I look at your book outline, it's like apostles suffer, prophets suffer, ordinary Christians suffer, sharing in the sufferings with Jesus, learning from the persecuted church, sickness and health, rich and poor, uh, you know, different kinds of hardship, suffering in God's will, rejoicing in suffering. I mean, these are just like you could pick a Bible verse and just go for it on those kinds of text. But if I want to kind of drill down into more of a philosophical question for the person who's watching this, they clicked the video because they have a diagnosis of a terminal illness, because a child, you know, has just passed away prematurely, um, you know, because there was a a tsunami that killed millions of people. Um, you know, we're over here as continuous believing that God does heal, he will heal, but even if he doesn't sort of healing, we we believe that God breaks in and does supernatural things all the time for the person who is wrestling, the Christian who, you know, they're they're trying to hold on to their faith, you know, genuinely, but are really wrestling with the idea of evil and the idea that this all-powerful God that's supposed to be all-loving is allowing all of this evil. How do you how do you make sense of that? And what kind of you know, consolation are you trying to bring to folks in those positions?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

Well, speaking of continuationism, we believe suffering occurred in the first century. So we believe that also continues. Um, that's why we we look to God for miracles. But miracles don't happen all the time. So when John the Baptist is in prison getting ready to be executed for his testimony, he sends messengers to Jesus saying, Are you the one to come or should we look for somebody else? Uh I said the one to come is going to baptize in fire. I don't see any fire, Jesus. Is that you, or are you are you gonna do something? And Jesus sends the messengers back to John with eyewitness testimony. The blind see, the deaf hear, the disabled walk. Good news is preached to the poor. Blessed is the one who doesn't stumble over me. Now he knows that John the Baptist knows the book of Isaiah. And therefore, John the Baptist will pick up on a couple echoes in what Jesus says. Isaiah 35, 5 and 6, the blind see, the deaf hear, the disabled walk, and Isaiah 61, good news is preached to the poor. So he's saying, Look, I am the one to come. You can see some of the things that have been promised, a foretaste of the of the coming promised future world, when there's gonna be no more suffering, when God is gonna wipe away every tear from our eyes. That's also Isaiah. Um, there's gonna be obviously the restoration of God's people. There's gonna be a new heavens and a new earth. Everything's gonna be made new. John, it's not the time for that consummation yet. But the things that I'm doing are signs of that time, they're promises, they're a a foretaste showing that God has not forgotten his promise. When God is a miracle for anybody, it's a foretaste of that new world. And so it's a it's meant to be an encouragement to any of us. Now, why the miracle happened to this person and not that person, I can't say. Um you know, that specific person. If it happened all the time, every time somebody prayed, we take it for granted and say it's well, skeptics would take it for granted and say, ah, it's just, you know, something in the human mind generates this. Because uh, the whole world around us broadcasts broadcasts God's glory, his magnificence, his majesty. What could what could speak of divine design creativity greater than DNA? But the point of miracles, the point of signs and wonders in in the Bible was always to get people's attention. So if God heals us through medicine, if God heals us through um the way our bodies are upset to begin with, those are gifts from God too. I mean, God um you know it's an answer to prayer, could be gifts of healings, wh whatever we w whatever we want to call it. But signs and wonders are things that specifically are meant to get people's attention in a way like uh that's pretty hard to explain some other way. Uh although there are ways people get around even those, but you know, those are those like are dramatic, they get your attention. And that's how Augustine and others in church history define them. So suffering continues in this world. It was already here, it's been here for a long time. Jesus came and on the cutting edge of the kingdom, and same with the disciples in Acts, on the cutting edge of the kingdom, there were many dramatic signs, and that still happens on the cutting edge of the kingdom. In other settings, God still heals. But it's like my friends in Africa, where you know, some people say, Hey, how come there's so many miracles in Africa? So many more than here. My friends in Africa, I ask them, they say, You need to be grateful for medical technology. That's God's gift to you. The childhood mortality rate up through the eighteen hundreds in most of the world, including the West, was close to one-third. So, I mean obviously medical technology makes a a wonderful difference. And and we should thank God for that. When it doesn't, there are miracles, but they don't happen all the time, and they've never happened all the time. I mean, I can give you examples from the New Testament, and certainly from the Bible as a whole. I mean, Elisha, so full of the power of God, and yet he he died of a sickness, and he he knew he had a sickness before he died. When they threw a corpse in on top of his bones, the corpse revived revived. That was the power of God in Elisha's bones, but Elisha still died of sickness. Trophimus, I left at Miletus sick, 2 Timothy 4. Doesn't say, but presumably Paul Paul had prayed for him. Um Epaphroditus was sick in in Philippians chapter uh chapter 2. He was Was um sick close to the point of death, Paul says. Paul doesn't say, you know, I just I I commanded him and he instantly got well. Um Galatians 4, 13 and 14, where Paul himself preached in Galatia, he says, because of a bodily uh osthenia, sickness or weakness. So it's it's not the case that everybody the apostles prayed for in the first century always got healed, and it's not not the case today either.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Yeah, no, I I I love the you know Epaphrodus, um, Trophimus, Timothy, Paul, those are the go-to's, you know, when we're talking about the gift of healing and how it's not always just done on command, um, because those accounts certainly suggest that uh the apostles could have just for all of our for those who think it's just uh a thing that we can conjure and do on command, they'd still be alive today. They'd just be sitting in a circle commanding each other to raise from the dead, and you know, it would have been great. Uh it would have continued on. But uh suffering is is a real thing. I I stumbled upon a a book that I read, it was a couple years ago for an interview with Francis Chan, and I think Francis Chan and Preston Sprinkle wrote this book on hell, I think it was. And um it was talking about the wrath of God, and in that passage, people were like, Well, hey, if hell is this eternal conscious torment, which I think is what they were arguing for in the book, um, you know, I don't understand that. It's it seems too grand, maybe too severe, too final, too intense um to make sense of. I I it's hard for me to accept. And he he flips the table in this really interesting way that's had me thinking for a long time, this this one phrase, and he just said, you know, and I'm paraphrasing excessively here, um, but would you, if you were to redeem the the world, um give your son as a sacrifice on a cross to be beaten beyond recognition of a man, um to be to be crucified, to be martyred in this way, for essentially just saying true things and doing good to all men? And uh and you'd go, No, I would I would never do that. And then he contrasts, like, well, if the the judgment of God is too vast and too great for us to imagine, is it not the same with the love of God that it's too vast and great for us to imagine? And we're so eager to accept the mystery of God's love and not the mystery of God's judgment. And I want to adjust that ever so slightly to talk about suffering. Um, I remember having this in the back of my head and a man coming to me in a church service saying, You know, Josh, um, you know, my kids are sick, you know, one is um I don't want to give their conditions at my giveaway, the person who came to me. Um, but they both had conditions, and he was like, I've prayed and prayed and prayed, and why won't God heal if I've done something wrong? And, you know, he looked at me and said, You know, I would I would take this sickness from them and and it it'd be my sickness if I could. Um and he's just like, Why, why would God allow this? And I said, Well, put yourself in the position of the disciples, put yourself in the position of Mary, and you're at the foot of the cross and you're seeing Jesus, your Messiah, the king of Israel, um, being mocked and beaten and murdered, and and think to yourself, there's no good that could ever come of this. Like we we often, I think, rush to um this conclusion of like that these two things are incompatible. I would say that the crucifixion is the greatest evil in all of human history, but it is also simultaneously the greatest good in all of human history, and God was able to use this great moment of suffering and evil to bring about his purpose and plan to glorify his son, to, to draw all men unto himself. It was this great act of salvation. And I think if we can look at the greatest evil and trust in the midst of that, those who are at the foot of the cross in that moment couldn't see what was happening. Um, but but in hindsight, and I just say, hey, look, in this moment of suffering, we can't see what it is, but we can trust, and we will be able to, in hindsight, one day, look back and go, ah, now I see. Um so maybe deal with, you know, as as I've just kind of vomited a bunch of words, deal deal with this idea of like, what's the purpose of suffering? Um, it's not always going to give satisfactory answers to those who are watching because in the midst of it, okay, like I'm gonna be perfected like Jesus was perfected. That's great, but like I'm in a lot of pain. You know, like I sometimes are not satisfactory answers, but but I'm not necessarily asking you to pastor the person in this moment as much as I am to say, what are the scriptures telling us uh that is actually being accomplished in the midst of suffering?

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Yeah. Um I have a lot of examples in the book of suffering where people found out in retrospect, oh, look what came out of this. Uh other people were converted through this person's suffering for Christ or even martyrdom for Christ, very commonly. At the same time, we don't always get to see that. Um so I don't want to I don't want to make it a simplistic, like you always always get to see the results of it. I'll give I'll give one example of that though. Um this was of uh a missionary. He had labored, uh this was in the Democratic Republic of Congo too. I'm not not just on a just talking about that country, but this was um a particular time, I think in the 1960s, he was he was martyred, and his wife and children, they couldn't understand the point of it, but they they trusted God, um, but they they came back to the states. But what eventually came out, and they did live to see this, one of the people he had led to Christ actually was among the same people group where his body had floated downstream after he'd been killed, and that people group was largely unevelized. And this guy said, Look, we are principles of hospitality in our culture, his body floated down our river in our stream. We have to pay attention to his message, and eventually, like huge numbers of that group of people came to become followers of Jesus more than he'd ever led to Christ during his life. So a number of cases like that. There are also the cases where God uses it, like Hebrews 12, uh, discipline to chasten us, not always that we've done something wrong, but to make us better. Or ultimately for us to be conformed to the image of God's Son. Um, Romans 8, 28 and 29. God works all things for our good. Doesn't mean all things happen directly for our good in the world. Um, the people who killed that guy, that wasn't something good they were doing. But uh God worked it for good, he works it for his good purposes all around, and he works it for our good in the long run. Sometimes it's sometimes it's in this life, like Joseph and his brothers. God did this so that many people could be saved, uh, have food, and not starve to death, and you know, bring us together as a family and provide for us all. But ultimately, Romans 8, 28, and 29, verse 29, the ultimate purpose is of all these things is that we're conformed to the image of God's Son. So it's got an eschatological, uh, eventual end time purpose. And we see that as a hope over and over again in Scripture. But you know, he doesn't say that everything that happens to us is directly for our good. Sometimes, like with the cross you were mentioning, that wasn't for Jesus' own good, that was for other people's good. But in Romans 8, whatever we suffer, and this is also 2 Corinthians 4, whatever we suffer isn't worthy to be compared with the glory that will be revealed. So it points us to the future hope. We have the miracles, we have what God has already done in the past as a foundation, so that we hope with confidence, and that needs to carry us through. I can give an example from my own life of I had post-traumatic stress syndrome for years after a certain event, but um God worked it for for my good ultimately. But um but but at the time it was like, okay, God, I believe you. I already knew that all things work together for good for those who love you. I'm crying out to you that my love will hold out so that you can work all things for my good. But but even at the end of the chapter, I mean he lists all sorts of things. It's not just persecution, although that's included, but 835 to 39, what can separate us from God's love in Christ? Can persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, sword, any of these things we overwhelmingly conquer, we're more than conquerors through him who loved us. And then he goes on and repeats that nothing, even spiritual powers, life, death, present, future, nothing can separate us from God's love in Christ. I remember another time of testing I went through which broke me, but the comfort, the spiritual comfort God gave me. Again, 2 Corinthians 1, the spiritual comfort God gave me was so much that I was like, oh God, this comfort is so much greater than my pain. I would take a thousand times more pain if I could have a thousand times more comfort. Later I got more pain. I was like, no. So it's um like Hebrews 12 says, it's not doesn't feel good when we're going through it. Doesn't feel like it's good when we're going through it.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Yeah, tell tell that story if you would about the the P the that caused the PTSD that you had.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yeah. No, I know some people will write me off uh after they hear the story, but that's fine because uh the same people would write me off because I'm charismatic or or certain other things. Maybe because I'm bald. Hey, who who knows? But um 1986 or 87, I think it was 86. Anyway, somewhere way back before cell phones um in antiquity. So my wife of three and a half years ran off with her best friend's husband. And I had been just soaring spiritually. I've been praying like two hours a day before it happened. When she ran off with her best friend's husband, I was completely broken. And and the two things that mattered to me were my wife and my ministry. The denomination that I was in at the time, and they've changed their position in this for certain circumstances, but the denomination I was in at the time, uh I could not be a minister because I was well, I wasn't divorced yet, but uh I fought the divorce for two years trying to get her back, but she didn't come back. So the idea was if your wife's not with you, you can't be a minister. If you're divorced, you can't be a minister unless you promise never to remarry. And by the way, if you're single, you can't get a church. So I was just totally devastated. I'd been praying a couple hours a day. After she left, I was so numb. All I could do was weakly utter the name of Jesus over and over again. I needed to be around other people. They didn't have to pay attention to me. I just needed to be around them to feel their strength of their life. And after the numbness went away, I wanted to I wanted to die. I loved her so much. Anyway, there's a long story there. Um but um there came a there came a point. I had been so numb, I couldn't feel God's presence, I couldn't feel God's voice. I knew he was there. My faith was shattered, but God was still there. He didn't let go of me. But I got to the point, I'd gone to the man, the other the other guy, I'd gone to him in Christian love and gently, lovingly exhorted him to stay away from my wife. But finally, after a couple months of this, the fruit of the spirit was kind of waning in my life. And I was praying, the Bible says to pray for those who persecute you. I was praying that God would kill him. And the Holy Spirit rebuked me. I was like, okay, God, that's it. That's not fair. I turned down the National Merit Scholarship to go to a Bible college because I thought you wanted me to. I've never so much as kissed another woman except this woman. If I can't even hate the man who took all this from me. And then I felt God speak. My child, Elijah was a man of like passions as you, when he knelt down under the juniper tree and said, God, just let me die. I'm no better than my ancestors. My child, David was a man of like passions as you, when he almost went in to kill Nabal and every male in his household, and he would have done it had I not stopped him by the hand of Abigail. My child, Jeremiah was like you. When he said, Cursed be the day that I was born, cursed be the man who brought my father the news, saying it's a boy. My child, you're a man of God, not because of what you're made out of. You're just made out of dust and ashes. You're a man of God because I called you, and my grace is sufficient for you. And for the next couple years, as I fought the divorce trying to get her back, it was his grace that sustained me. I'd always wondered about these people in the Bible. Wow, look at their faith. These are great heroes. But most of them didn't, apart from Jesus who fasted 40 days, most of them didn't volunteer for their trials. Job didn't volunteer. Abraham didn't volunteer to have to wait so long. Sarah uh didn't volunteer. I realized even more how weak I really was, because it was only God's grace that kept me. But I realized that was the same with most of the people in the Bible. Sometimes it may feel like you're just holding on for dear life. But be confident that God's not going to let go. And sometimes when you're just holding on for dear life, that's really when your faith grows the most. Chauncey Crandall, um, we like to tell the story of how um he was a surgeon, he prayed over Jeff Markin, who'd been flat-lined for 40 minutes, Jeff Markin came back to life. But the backstory is that maybe a year or so before that, Chauncey Crandall's own son, Chad, died of leukemia. And Dr. Crandall prayed, and Chad didn't come back. And he had to decide whether he was going to keep trusting God or not. And he decided, God is worthy of my trust no matter what. And out of that brokenness, when he prayed for Jeff Markin and barely felt any faith at all, but was just obeying what he felt like the Spirit wanted him to do, God answered, because sometimes hanging on for dear life counts as faith. I mean, we see that in the gospels. Um, desperation. So um, the woman with the flow of blood, Leviticus 15, she's not supposed to be out touching people. Certainly, she's not supposed to be touching the hem of Jesus' garment, but she's got desperate faith. She can't settle for anything else. She's got to get an answer. Same with the friends of the paralyzed man who tear up their neighbor's roof. I'm sure they would be expected to fix it later on, but they they tear up their neighbor's roof because it's the only way to get their friend to Jesus. And Jesus is their only hope of their friend being healed. Or the leper, the the the but ancient leprosy is different from modern leprosy, but the the man with ancient leprosy, um, he's not supposed to be within 50 paces of anybody. Leviticus 13, he's supposed to be crying out, unclean, unclean. He's close enough for Jesus to reach out and touch him. These were people who were desperate. The woman, the disciples try to send her away. She's gotta get Jesus to heal her daughter. She won't give up. Jesus basically puts her off. And she comes back with an answer. She she won't give up. Faith doesn't always feel good. But it recognizes who our only hope is. And when he says no, sometimes it's not a permanent no, sometimes we need to keep seeking. But even when it's a permanent no, he's our creator, he's our maker, he's our deliverer, our savior, he's our eternal hope. He's worthy of our trust, no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

That's good. And I and on this podcast, we always try to remind our audience, because the the word faith can be so reframed depending on what group you're involved in. Um, and faith can be this confidence of an outcome. When we've we've tried to reassure people, faith is confidence in a person. It's it's confidence in his character and his power and his authority and his goodness. And it's like I trust that. And in the midst of knowing who he is, I believe that because he has done and this is uniform with his character and his nature, that he will break in and do this. But even if he doesn't, it's because I trust the person. But in the midst of that, I know that there's some kind of purpose, there's some kind of plan, there's something in the midst of this, whether it's a mystery to me or not. You know, there are times where people are just told no, right? Uh, you think of uh 2 Corinthians 12, um, just no. Um, but then other times, uh, and I would say I would say maybe experientially, the vast majority of the times, uh, the answer is crickets. You know, we just we don't we don't know uh why. If it's a yes, no, maybe later, like we we just we don't have anything, and sometimes that's harder than a no. Um you know, I was I was struck by something that you said, you know, earlier you had talked about how miracles, healings, these things are right now tastes of a future age. I've heard that a lot, but but then you you made it a similar but but opposite claim that suffering is a like almost a present-day reminder of a future age. And so I, you know, I think of Israel going through the wilderness every day. They wake up, they take the manna, it tastes like honey, and they're going into the land flowing of milk and honey, right? So like there's this this correlation to every day I'm waking up and I'm having this right now taste of a future age, but but to the same level, like they're they're suffering in the wilderness, you know, they're they're drudging around um in in a barren wasteland, if you will, and it's a reminder that this is not their home. So it's interesting that both of those, one being a sign, you know, God's supernatural power put on display, giving them a right now taste of a future age. But then the world's effects of sin and corruption and destruction also serve as a reminder that this is not our home. And I think both are good uh to to instill that confidence. In faith in a believer. Maybe I've I've I've maybe equated those two things in a way that you wouldn't. I wouldn't give you an opportunity to kind of clarify if you would disagree, because I don't think you or I would want to say that they're the same, right? That both are gifts. Because I, you know, I look at sickness and the Bible looks like an enemy to be conquered rather than you know a gift from God. Um so you know, death, sickness, disease, suffering is is part of the corruption of sin. And I'm just saying that it can it can serve the believer as a reminder, not not in the sense that it's some kind of gift. But but but but you're the theologian, you clean it up for me. Uh tell me, tell me, tell me how I've uh I've overstepped. I'm happy, I'm I'm happy to learn here.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

The man that tastes like coriander seed, but yeah, it's good thinking of how it's a foretaste, I mean, and the miracles that they'd seen. Actually, Romans 8 does have a lot of echoes of the book of Exodus and the story of the the account of the Exodus. So being led by God, um, being adopted as God's children, um, future inheritance, and and so on. Um, but also Romans 8 talks about groaning, like uh Israel was groaning because of their bondage, Exodus 2, 22, 23. Um, well, in Romans 8, 22, the creation's groaning, we are groaning, the spirit is groaning together with us, 8.26, and then in 8.27, uh, we don't know what we should pray for sometimes. And the church fathers often connected that with the times that Paul prayed for the thorn to be taken away. But one thing in Romans 8 that really connects with what you said is in Romans 8.22, the whole creation is groaning in birth pangs for the world to come. What we see around us are birth pangs. Uh, Jesus also uses that analogy. But birth pangs aren't meaningless suffering normally because the ideal of the birth pangs is bringing forth a child. And in our case, we're looking forward to the new creation. We are caught up in this creation around us that's going through birth pangs, but we see the birth pangs through a prism of hope. Because if we have a biblical perspective, now this is assuming that for most of us that we spend more time immersing ourselves in scripture than in say worldly entertainment or whatever. Um, but if we have a biblical worldview, we really trust the message of scripture and and learn that kind of faith. Okay, these sufferings are not without meaning, they're not without purpose. I mean, not necessarily this individual suffering, that individual suffering, but collectively, the sufferings of this world are the birth pangs of a new creation. We look in Revelation, the seven churches of Asia Minor, and the only two that are unconditionally commended, no reproofs, are the two churches that are suffering, uh, in both cases, persecution. And then we look through the the book of Revelation. I mean, each of the each of the seven churches, uh, with two, uh, there's a couple of them experiencing almost the same thing, but for the most part, each of the seven churches they have different tests. Sometimes we look at other people's tests, we say, I wish I had that one instead of mine. Or, I'm so glad I don't have theirs. We don't get to choose our tests, but each of them is called to overcome. Um, just like when Paul said, as I quoted earlier, more than conquerors. I think that's E37. Um, we are hooper nika'o. Nika'o means to conquer or overcome or be victorious in the race or victorious into war or whatever. Each one was called to overcome. And that's a refrain throughout the book of Revelation. And finally, at the end, the promise of the inheritance of all the new Jerusalem, all the glory of the world to come belongs to those who overcome. And in the midst, you have people being overcome on the physical level. 13.9, the beast is executing people, overcoming them. Uh, I think it's I see 13.7. Um, but in 1211, we get the heavenly perspective on those who are being persecuted. The heavenly perspective is they overcame him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the point of death. We overcome by not giving way to these tests. Daniel and his three friends, they were tested with the king's food in Daniel chapter one. They passed that test. They were ready, therefore, for the bigger tests of the lion's den or the fiery furnace. We don't get to choose our tests, but by overcoming in the smaller tests, by not cussing when we stub our toe. I don't know. Actually, I did find out, you know, when that the thing on the computer uh freezes, uh, I found out whether they called it a cursor. But anyway, um when we when we overcome in our smaller tests, we're more ready for the bigger ones to come. So we can take courage. Um it's not this isn't we're not saved by you know optimal overcoming necessarily. I mean, we see plenty of cases of people failing along the way before they before they finally succeeded in the Bible, but to be all that God desires for us to be, to glorify him optimally is to learn to to glorify him in our sufferings. Um and actually there are people who come to Christ because they see a miracle, and there are other people who come to Christ because they see Christians die with hope. There was a people group in Kerala, from what I understand. I just heard this from somebody from India uh a couple weeks ago. He and his family were the only converts at the time, and one by one they were all executed for refusing to deny Christ. So, no Christians, but somebody who saw them was so impressed by the hope with which they died that that person became a Christian and then spread the gospel until thousands and thousands of people in that region became Christians, and there are so many accounts like that around the world. Because we can die with hope, we can face tests with courage because we know the one who's with us. Now I know that's easier to say, because again, um the the one chapter that in the book called Rejoicing in Suffering, all sorts of scripture that that's based on. But I did not want to write that chapter, and a friend of mine who's in an area where persecution is ongoing made me write that chapter. He said, No, you can't leave that out. It's in the Bible. I said, It's in the Bible, but I'm not very good at it. But uh, you know, I've been beaten for my witness, beaten on the street for sharing Christ, had my life threatened for sharing Christ in certain circles. That would not not so much recently. It doesn't happen to me too much as a biblical scholar. People just write nasty reviews when they get at me. But uh but in my earlier days, witnessing on the street, I I faced tests like that, and I was not very good at rejoicing at the time. Afterwards, looking back, yeah, I suffered for Christ, but at the time, you know, wiping the blood off my face, I was like, ah, uh, did I do something wrong when I was witnessing? Or God, did I make you mad? That's not biblical. I mean, rejoice, leap for joy when they when they do this. That's what they did with your ancestors the prophets. Um, all sorts of other other passages. Um, Romans 5. Rejoice, because it's going to bring proven character, and proven character is going to solidify that hope. Uh, James chapter 1, 1 Peter chapter 1. All these passages talk about rejoicing in suffering because of the benefits of suffering. Mostly in the well, not all in the context of persecution. James 1 is in the context of poverty. So, I mean, there are different uh, and actually talk about voluntary um getting back to something I mentioned earlier, what the Bible says about caring for those in need, um, whether it's those being persecuted for Christ, whether it's those who are suffering hunger, those who are I mean, 13,000 children die every day of preventable things, hunger, malaria, um other uh preventable diseases, easily preventable. Yeah, and and so and those are things that we have the resources. Christians in the West have the resources. We could eliminate those things. The number of people who die every day of starvation, I think it's estimated now twenty-five thousand. It was forty thousand a few a few decades ago. So it's I mean it's improved, but that's like every every three seconds somebody dying of starvation. Now, sometimes, I mean you've got countries with corruption, you know, the food can't get through and so on. But that doesn't that doesn't account for nearly nearly even half of this. There are things we could do about that. It's like the the towers in New York, 3,000 people died right away from that. But we're talking about six times that many, more than six times that many many people dying every day of starvation. It doesn't make the news because it's not new. It's not news, it's happening all the time. So there are things where we're not suffering, but we know other people are suffering. And I know Lazarus wouldn't starve to death at our doorstep because here in the West we wouldn't let anybody that poor get near our doorstep for the most part. But the early church, at least with the fellow Christians, you know, we we have at the outpouring of the spirit in Pentecost 244 and 45. You know, I love tongues. I speak in tongues, I've been speaking in tongues for over 50 years, but it wasn't just tongues in Acts chapter 2. The spirit was outpoured, and the believers cared for one another, shared their possessions. Again, at the next outpouring of the spirit in chapter 4. Well, in chapter 11, the church in Antioch decides to do that, uh well, decides to care for the church in Jerusalem. And 1130, they send uh Barnabas and Saul. They come back after having delivered the things to the elders in 1225. Uh Paul is bringing an offering for Jerusalem in Acts chapter 24. He talks a lot more about it in his letters for the believers in Jerusalem who are in need. We have brothers and sisters. We celebrate the growth of the church in many parts of the world. But some of the places where the church is growing the most are the most impoverished. There may be reasons for that. Um the Bible often talks about God being far from the proud but close to the broken and the lowly. But as brothers and sisters, I mean, in a physical family, we'd help. Well, most of us would, with most of our brothers and sisters. But I mean, the thing, the things that we can sacrifice for others who are who are in need. Um I know I'm going off on lots of tangents, and we're not covering the book in order by chapters. But anyway.

SPEAKER_00 59:56

And that's a rather philosophical question. And depending on where you land on um, well, a couple of theological issues uh will determine how some people answer this question. Regardless, I'm convinced on how you answer those qu those other theological questions that God is good. Um, and uh there are times when what is good for someone hurts a lot. Um uh lots of really good stories we could illustrate with that. But again, we're short on time. So I'll I'll punch it over to you um to to give an opportunity to answer that question on God's will. Um, is he purposing this? Is he does he want this suffering? Um, how how do we make sense of God's will in the midst of it and how he purposes evil?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

First Peter chapter four actually talks about what to do when you suffer according to God's will. Uh 1 Peter 3 also mentions something like that. So the Bible definitely says we, at least sometimes, suffer according to God's will. And certainly God knows every situation we're in. Not not a hair of your head falls to the ground without your father. Um I don't have a whole lot of hair, but we have confidence that God knows and God looks out for us in detail. I mean, some of the world, you know, some things may be delegated. Uh God may may or may not, I I think not, but may not micromanage everything and may have set some things up to work on their own. But with us, I think he does look out for us. We are his children, and he knows everything that we face, everything that we're going to go through. And sometimes it is his will, at least sometimes it's it's his will that we go through suffering. Sometimes to make us better, sometimes to have a better outcome in the long run. Sometimes to help other people. Sometimes for them seeing what we go through. And sometimes maybe it's just so his verdict will be just. I mean God really shames Satan in the book of Job. Job never finds out Satan's role in it. He just sees God as sovereign. But he's right to see God as sovereign. I mean, Satan's on a leash, he doesn't get to do anything to Job without God's permission. And I'm I'm one of the people who thinks that there is free will, a degree of free will at least, um, that God sovereignly arranged for that to happen. But it's it's within boundaries. And certainly it's within boundaries when anybody does anything to God's children or anything happens to us. And in light of eternity, we're going to be able to look back and thank God for everything in our lives. Again, not that God was the direct. Um Aristotle spoke of different levels of causation. The medieval world understood that in the modern world, sometimes we we've forgotten that. So, you know, you have an ultimate cause, you have uh a goal kind of cause, purpose. You can have um different levels of causation along the way. So if I write a book, um, in one sense my mind writes it, in one sense my fingers type it, in another sense, my well, probably not my pen, my my keyboard. Um, in some sense, my culture, in some sense the the things that I've read that have influenced the way I'm I'm thinking and writing. I mean, there are all these levels of causation. God is never the direct cause of sin, but for believers, we can trust God to be the ultimate one who looks out for everything in our lives. And I know uh Josh, I'm not sure if you're still lean Arminian and your colleagues lean Calvinist, or if you uh that's about right.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:36

So I uh you know, if if we're gonna talk about soteriology, I I probably sound a little bit more Luther than I do um uh Arminius, but um Roundtree is on the Calvinistic camp. Miller Miller would be the most Arminian of of the three of us. And I think I think he's pretty similar to where I'm at. Um seeing but I think that talking in terms of soteriology, I think sometimes can get confusing for people because uh I think the active work of God in creation is a separate subject in some sense. I just think that the soteriological conversation has monopolized the conversation on God's sovereignty and human free will to such an extent that you know that uh it's it's the tail the tail wagging the dog to some extent. Um anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:25

Yeah, I want to I want to be fair to the different positions and not uh so I want to say what I think the Bible says, but it requires some nuance. And sometimes we we use labels and to categorize things, but we can we can have confidence in God. I don't believe he micromanages, I don't believe he um causes sin or is the direct cause of a lot of things that happen to us. But I believe he's the ultimate one in charge, and he knows and he takes care of us, and we can we can trust in him and he hears our cries. And sometimes when he says no, it's actually for our own good, like James and John when they wanted to be on either side of him, when he comes into his kingdom in Mark chapter 10, and then in Mark chapter 15, look who's on either side of him when he's crowned king of the Jews. Uh, it's good James and John weren't there. So sometimes it's for our good, he says no. And when Jesus says, Abba, Father, take this cup from me, nevertheless, not what I will, but what you will, and God says, No. That wasn't for Jesus' good, that was for our good. And yet God's purposes, his ultimate purposes are always good. And in eternity future, we're going to be able to look back and marvel and praise God for his wisdom and how he's arranged history. Even in the midst of, I mean, the so many individual personal tragedies that are just awful. And God sees them as awful. That's why in the Bible he talks about judgment against people who do those things. But he he lets human sin, human free will play out in a lot of history so we can see how evil evil really is and ultimately vindicate the righteous.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:04

Amen. Oh, that's right. Um, I love that. That's a that's a fantastic answer to a very complex question. Um Dr. Keener, thank you so much for joining us uh for the program. I'm gonna put a link for the book down into the description for people who want to go pick it up. Uh and I'm looking forward to future conversations, Dr. Keener. Uh, thank you so much for jumping jumping on with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:23

Hey, thanks, Josh.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:25

Blessings, guys. Thank you so much for tuning in, and we'll see you next time.