Let's be honest, we're hearty folks here in Ohio as our winter months bring loads of cold weather, gray skies, and frozen water of several iterations. All of which send the sun back into the shadows. Yes, we're used to it, but it doesn't mean we're not truly affected by it. Those factors and more lead to seasonal affective disorder and it's real. It's not just the 'winter blues'. SAD has symptoms and even direct correlations to major depressive disorder. Join Julie Battaglia, clinical lead supervisor at Boundless and Rejeana Haynes, chief clinical officer at St. Vincent Family Services to learn what awareness, exercise, self-care, medication, counseling and other changes in lifestyle could do to help you or someone you know with SAD.
Let's be honest, we're hearty folks here in Ohio as our winter months bring loads of cold weather, gray skies, and frozen water of several iterations. All of which send the sun back into the shadows. Yes, we're used to it, but it doesn't mean we're not truly affected by it. Those factors and more lead to seasonal affective disorder and it's real. It's not just the 'winter blues'. SAD has symptoms and even direct correlations to major depressive disorder. Join Julie Battaglia, clinical lead supervisor at Boundless and Rejeana Haynes, chief clinical officer at St. Vincent Family Services to learn what awareness, exercise, self-care, medication, counseling and other changes in lifestyle could do to help you or someone you know with SAD.
Okay, a multiple choice question for our two guests today. According to Google, which date had the highest search volume for seasonal depression, Alaska, Montana, Ohio, or Minnesota, Julie, you get to guess first.
Julie Battaglia:Montana
Scott Light:Regina?
Rejeana Haynes:I'm gonna go with Montana as well. Okay.
Scott Light:And with that welcome everyone to Well-Being a
Unknown:Thank you.
Scott Light:Okay, let's see if both of you were right with our podcast brought to you by Boundless. Boundless is a nonprofit that provides residential support, autism services, primary health care, day programs, counseling and a whole lot more children and adults. Our mission is to build a world that realizes the boundless potential of all people. If you like what you're hearing, Hey, give us a great review. Wherever you listen to our episodes. I'm your host, Scott Light. The voices that you just heard belong to our two guests. Julie Battaglia is our clinical lead supervisor here at boundless Julie, welcome to you. Welcome. And Regina Haynes is here she is Chief Clinical Officer at St. Vincent Family Services, Rejeana, welcome to you as well. multiple choice question. Right off the top? And I gotta tell you, the answer was Ohio. How about that. So no matter where Ohio ranks year to year, we know those rankings can differ from year to year, right? We do know this seasonal affective disorder or SAD, it is real. It affects our friends, our family, our neighbors right now every single day, especially this time of the year. So that's our topic for today's episode. Julie, you actually wrote an article last year about this time of the year for Boundless and it was titled, SAD is much more than just the blues. So let's start there kind of a baseline there. Help us to understand what is seasonal affective disorder.
Julie Battaglia:Seasonal Affective Disorder can also be considered a form of depression, major depressive disorder, a lot of the symptoms are the same. And from my clinical perspective, and the staff that I have, we would not diagnose somebody specifically with seasonal affective disorder, the diagnosis would be major depressive disorder with seasonal pattern. So that is kind of confusing a little bit. I think a lot of people are familiar with SAD, you know, some people are familiar with MDD. But they are very similar. And it also depends on which professional is kind of diagnosing on which one would be used as a clinical term.
Scott Light:Okay. Regina, what about uh, just kind of out of the gate here, when when you hear or people talk about seasonal affective disorder? What do you think?
Rejeana Haynes:Yeah, Iagree with Julie, it really is more of the seasonal pattern, that's what you will look for, because there's really no specific diagnosis in the manual. You'll just look for depression, and then the pattern in which we'll talk a little bit more about how we ask folk to keep track of journaling, just so that they'll know what those seasons start to look like are those timeframes, those patterns,
Scott Light:Rejeana, let's pick up on that we know that reduced sunlight, for example, it can cause chemical imbalances in the brain.
Rejeana Haynes:Yes, so absolutely. So when we think about it, during this time, when we some of us are going to bed when it's dark, and we're waking up when it's dark. And so we start to look at those time it's cold, it's gray during the day, and our body starts to produce a significant amount of melatonin. So that's what kind of makes us a little sleepy and a little drowsy. And we don't get as much of the, the chemical that we tend to get from the sun, the vitamin D. So when we get that sun that gives us energy, it regulates our mood better. And that's why we tend to say, during this time, we just don't feel it, we feel sluggish, we feel tired. We just kind of want to go and cuddle up during this season. And then when spring calms, we kind of bounce back a little bit better and easier. We're ready for these sunny days. Even during the year when we seed some of these sunny days interspersed, we start to see more people out and about because our energy level has lifted, we are producing less melatonin and then more of that energy level of chemical that gives us energy.
Scott Light:We're recording this episode. In a particular week in February, where this week we had a 60 degree day and I noticed just around my office, Julie, people were just in a better mood that day. Yeah.
Julie Battaglia:It's so weird, I think to think about is that, you know, it's the middle towards the end of February 60 degrees out, you know, I I know from personal experience, those days I'm like, I don't need a coat. It's you know, it's not that cold. You know, the sun's out, oh, this is great. And then you actually get outside and you're like, oh, just feel very cold outside, it is still the middle of February. But we see we see the sunlight and we, I think naturally associate that with feeling better. It's a sunny day, what am I going to get accomplished? What are things that I can do? Because it's sunny out, Oh, I'm gonna go for that walk that I don't force myself to do when it's gray because it's cold and it's gray, like, what am I going to look at when it's dark outside? You know, so I think we just initially ignore some of those regular things that we do when it's gray when it's, you know, dark at 4pm, starting in November. And so we just have to kind of force ourselves to do some of these little things that helped create some of those. Some of those chemicals that were missing. I recently had a daughter in the last year, and I remember going to the pediatrician for the first time and they were like, you gotta get vitamin D drops, because you live in Ohio. I was like, I guess I never thought of that from like a developmental standpoint, from like a baby, you know, I'm an adult. And I know that I need to probably supplement my vitamin D. But do I probably not as much as I should. But hearing that about, you know, this little baby that can't do anything for themselves is like, Oh, wow, this is a big problem. This is something that we have to take a little bit more control over.
Scott Light:I remember when I moved here years ago, and and after living for 10 years in Phoenix, and I was talking to my pharmacist, and she said, oh, boy, you're gonna miss the sun. And I really didn't know about the gray, you know, in December, January, February here. And I said, So where are you from? And she said, Wisconsin, and I said, well, that that's Midwest, right? And she said, No, she said, We're cold, but we get sun in Wisconsin. And again, I you know, moved here. I couldn't wait to be here. But I just didn't know. Right? And so yeah, you just you learn all kinds of things. I want to throw a couple of stats your way here that I found interesting. So good RX, looked at prescription fill rates nationally, for for SAD, and for SAD medication. And they found that those rates were highest in the Pacific Northwest. So that's probably not not a real, real big surprise there. But here's what piqued my interest, good RX sought low prescription fill rates in some high risk areas like here in the Midwest. But the low rates, they actually attributed to good public awareness campaigns that certain states like Indiana and Pennsylvania have, they didn't list Ohio, and this particular article that I read is having, let's say, you know, super progressive awareness out there when it comes to seasonal affective disorder. I'm just curious at both of your opinions about our awareness of this. In Ohio, what do you think?
Rejeana Haynes:I would probably say we struggle with that. We just don't hear it much. We just don't. And I think it's because it does get included in depression, just general depression. And other than we forget about the pattern aspect of it. So I would venture to say that we just we never talked about it, we never really hear about it. So it makes sense that that lack of public awareness is there and probably is contributing to some of that just not being aware of it.
Scott Light:Julie, you're nodding your head.
Julie Battaglia:Yeah, I would agree. I've lived in Ohio my entire life. But I'm from Northeast Ohio. So I'm from the Cleveland area. And I think people that live here in Ohio are just like, well, this is what Ohio was like, you know, this is the weather, you know, you can get all four seasons in one day. That's basically what it is. So I think that our awareness to how we can improve our symptoms, because of it kind of fall to the wayside. Because we know that this is how Ohio is but we're not making any proactive steps to change that. You know, our perception is well, that's Ohio, you know, instead of like, well, I know Ohio does this. So what am I doing to make sure I'm not falling kind of like into this. And the fact that it does get lumped into major depressive disorder, I think kind of pushes people away from actually taking a step back and looking at the symptoms. The symptoms are the same, like, you know, the diagnostic criteria that we use in the DSM doesn't have seasonal affective disorder. It has major depressive disorder and a various other ones depending on the length of symptoms that you had. So I think a lot of people don't necessarily want to look at their symptoms and admit that they actually meet criteria for depression, you know, with that seasonal pattern, and it's okay to meet that criteria. You know, there's a statistic out there, I cannot remember exactly what it is. But I learned in grad school that a lot of people throughout their entire life at any given time could meet criteria for an generalized anxiety disorder and major depressive disorder. So just because you have anxiety or you have depression, doesn't mean that it has to be clear rippling anxiety or crippling depression, a lot of people that you talk to, on your day to day probably have anxiety or depression, it's just what are we doing to manage it? You know, some people have to do a lot, you know, considering medications, therapies, you know, they have to be a little bit more intentional in their skills and other people. They can manage it fairly well, without medication without seeing a regular therapist, they can Google something, and it works, you know, so there's a lot more people that are experiencing these things than we realize. And I think that knowing that maybe can help people relate to having, you know, depression, or if they consider it sad, okay, you know, that's fine, too. But the solutions are going to be the same. The ways to help improve those symptoms are going to be the same. But despite what you call it,
Scott Light:yeah, my bet is if we went around and talk to 100 random people, and we said, Did you did you know that many of the signs for seasonal affective disorder are the same as major depressive disorder? I bet you a clear majority would say I had no idea.
Rejeana Haynes:Yeah. And I was thinking about the lines of that what we're dealing with here is still the stigma associated with mental illness and or a depression diagnosis. So when you think about people being afraid or ashamed of even going to get an assessment to see, where do I fit, it's easier to say that I have the blues, and the blues will go away, right? Or we hope and sometimes we think maybe by spring, it will be better. And some folks, it goes a little longer than spring. But I do believe that stigma still plays a large part in us not identifying or having the opportunity for people to get the treatment that they need.
Scott Light:Does family history. Rejeana, does DNA come into play here?
Rejeana Haynes:You know I have certainly heard and read that it does. I have not seen an overwhelming amount of data that said that it does. But when you think of depression, or depressive disorders in general, we do know that there is a correlation.
Julie Battaglia:Yeah, I don't have significant kind of education or numbers on that. But I think we have to consider it just like any kind of other, you know, medical disorder, that because your family has a genetic predisposition to this certain thing, doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to have it, but it means that maybe you're exposed to it, and especially something you know, there's studies about generational PTSD related symptoms. So like, if your grandparents experienced traumatic things, because maybe they were the first people in your family over in this country, how does that impact your parents? How did that impact you just by the day to day stuff that you went through, grew up through? So if you had a grandparent who suffered from anxiety or depression, who had a parent raised with anxiety and depression, who then had kids, which may be you, you know, how is that impacting you? And then how does that have impact? If you have kids? How are you kind of projecting your symptoms, or maybe your over awareness to anxiety and depression on to those people. So even if it's not necessarily a genetic link, I think that there is a link between generations in what you're experiencing.
Scott Light:I mentioned the couple of the stats there from good RX. It's also interesting when those data experts crunched the numbers at Google, and I found this, if you look at just two factors, again, when you crunch all the numbers at Google, the percentage of sunshine in each state, and then the Google search volume of seasonal depression. The people in these five states experience seasonal depression the most, and I'll go in alphabetical order, Alaska, Maryland, Michigan, Ohio, and Vermont. So Julie, I want to come back to what you wrote about you. You wrote about light therapy in that article that you wrote about a year or so ago. So I'll start with you. But I want to ask both of you. What do each of you do when the sun kind of disappears on us here in Ohio in January and February?
Julie Battaglia:That is a good question. I think it's more of like maybe what I should do know that I should do but don't always do. One thing is just physical activity in general. So whether you can walk outside because the weather allows you, whether you have a treadmill or a bike or anything like that physical movement gets those endorphins going, it gives us not the same type of chemical response, but a chemical response to lift our mood. So making sure that activity is consistent is helpful. I probably don't do that as much as I could be, you know, but that's one thing that is kind of like on my radar. The other thing is maybe increasing pleasurable activities that you enjoy doing. So what is something maybe that's not physical that doesn't involve outdoors that you like to do? Do you like to read? Do you like to color do you like to crochet or you know, anything like that? Are we increasing the favorable activities to account for not being able go just sit outside and enjoy yourself. So what is the balance of favorable things versus like, okay, maybe things we have to do. And then making sure that you're also getting some of that socialization that you need. So if you live by yourself, it's probably a little bit harder to get that, you know, calling people. You know, I know we live in this digital age now where it's like text here, message here, but are we calling and talking to people? Are we seeing other people? Are we you know, engaging in something that's more than just a screen. live interaction with others is helpful. I live with, you know, my wife and a baby now. So it's like, we constantly are talking about what's going on, or maybe we're constantly napping, but you know, there's that company in doing whatever we're doing. So I think it's harder for individuals that live by themselves, or maybe have opposite schedules as their partner, to be able to get that like quality social time together,
Scott Light:your baby's one year old.
Julie Battaglia:She's 15 months.
Scott Light:Yeah, you're still not getting good sleep. So it comes, believe me, it comes. Regina, and I both have kids in college. So there are different worries when you get that phase two. So there's plenty more for you to come. Rejeana, what do you do to again, try to find light, whether it's metaphorical or not figuratively? Or, or literally, what are you trying to do this?
Rejeana Haynes:I agree there is that what I should do? Versus what do I actually do. But I also think that I you have to be more intentional. I am looking at the things that I know I have to do to get to where I want to be. And I think the journaling, if I'm able to see these low times in my life, these seasonal patterns, what do I need to do to kind of ward off some of that. And if it's increasing some of the things that Julie just mentioned, then I need to be intentional about that I need to be intentional about finding those things. Being aware of those things they bring bring me pleasure, right? The things that make me smile, that make me feel good to counter those things that cause me to want to be home by myself. And if I don't have someone to go outside with, go outside, just walk around just to get some fresh air is what we call self care. And people have to be intentional about taking care of themselves. Because no one can do it for you. Everybody's pattern of self care is different. So I love walking, I absolutely I've gotten to enjoy walking by myself. And that's the time that I can kind of listen to my music and sing and nobody's going to criticize me about how bad it is. But it's those kinds of thing is talking to my family members, people that want to make sure that I know that love me and I love them. So I invest the time in connecting with people, I go out of my shell sometimes and get that social interaction, I want to be connected. And again, those are the things that we tend to lose when we just don't be intentional. We have to fight it, we have to make sure that we are going above what we feel during this time. Everybody almost want to go home and get a good book to read and crawl up in front of the fireplace. But we have to be intentional about that's not where I want to be I want to go out I want to connect, I want to feel good. And if doing that make you feel good, then do that. Because again, what works for one may not work for others. But those are the things that I've found myself doing. I love walking, I'll do like reading. And that's the thing I'd have to be careful of because reading requires me to kind of be by myself. And I love I look forward to being able to sit on my deck in the spring and in the summer. So hopefully I can sit out there long enough in June, July and August to make up for the cloudiness of February, the month of February. But those are the things that I do to help ward off some of that stuff that we tend to have to contend with. In February here in Ohio.
Scott Light:You mentioned a couple of things you've you've mentioned a diary and journaling a couple of times here and that was next on my notes to bring up Do do you actively journal?
Rejeana Haynes:I do. I actually, I journal and I have two self care books. So I part of my journaling is what did I do today? For gratefulness? What did I do today to to intentionally take care of myself in all aspects of my life, whether it's social, financial, mental, what spiritual, whatever that part of my life is, to make sure I'm being intentional in taking care of them. That's what I call the self care. So within my self care journal within my self care book, is the opportunity for me to journal I can talk about what were some of my superpowers this week or what are some of those areas that struggled with this week and what was the feeling like for me, and different people are going through different stages of life, right, we see a lot more typically I believe we see more women being diagnosed with depression. So we oftentimes are going through different development stages of life, where we have to be very mindful of the ages that we're in, and the developmental stages that we're in, and what that does to impact our feelings, our well being so intentionality is one of those things that's key for you to be well, when you think about being well, what do I need to be intentional about to maintain my wellness,
Scott Light:I'm so glad you brought up self care I was at a forum was one of the lucky ones at a forum. It's been a couple of years ago. And there was an executive from the Ohio State School of Nursing. And she said this, I will never forget it for all of my years. And I can't remember what I have for breakfast this morning. But I will never forget this line from her. And she said, self care is not selfish. And that registered with me, it's not it shouldn't be we should not be can't be That's right. We should not feel guilty for taking care of ourselves.
Julie Battaglia:I jokingly tell my supervisees all the time, I'm like you remember when you get on that airplane, and they tell you, you got to put your air mask on first, before you help anybody else. You doing your own self care is making sure that you're available to help and support your clients, you're not going to be able to help your clients if you're not helping yourself. So like I jokingly say, like I remember that masking on put on but it I think it's like a really good, you know, metaphor of what we have to do when whenever you're in a helping profession. So maybe just not clinicians, anybody that's helping other people, or kind of managing other people's traumas, we have to remember that we have to take care of ourselves. And so putting your mask on, like, what does that look like for some people, it's taking a five minute walk to the mailbox and getting the mail. You know, maybe it's listening to a whole CD that you really enjoy and you connect with, we have to figure out what it means for us and how we can implement that into our day to day.
Scott Light:Let's talk about a couple of other things that may help again, depending on its individual choice, right? What works for one person may or may not work for others. What about supplements? Julie, you mentioned that vitamin D, should people maybe think about supplements this time of the year.
Julie Battaglia:I think supplements for some people is a great idea to explore I you know, meds are not my scope of practice. So I always encourage people to talk to their primary care physicians, any other doctor that they may have, they have a cardiologist, you know, whoever is involved in their care if supplements are something that they are looking into, I think it is something that helps a lot of people. Vitamin D is one of the common ones that I hear vitamin, like B, B 12. Those are other things that can help. It also depends on what that person is going through. So vitamin D might not be an issue, maybe it's iron for somebody else, you know, maybe melatonin at night is helpful for some other people. But I think supplements are some ways helpful. Some some they don't help anybody you know. So it's just talking with your doctor figuring out what you think, you know, there are also like, herbal remedies that you can try sleeping time tea. You know, if you're having trouble sleeping, there are a bunch of other kinds of teas that help with different types of moods, digestion, fatigue, muscle aches, so it really depends on that person, like what is the trigger for their depression, you know, maybe what is the most intense symptom that they're feeling? Maybe besides mood? You know, are they having back pain? Are they having stomach or digestion issues? What are the other kinds of physical symptoms that they're feeling because if sometimes we can lessen those, then it helps with the overall feeling like the overall wellness of that individual?
Scott Light:Well, and speaking of talking to somebody, Rejeana, if someone feels like that they need to find a professional find a therapist or a counselor to talk to. That's that's always a positive step to
Rejeana Haynes:Absolutely as Julia mentioned about the supplements, they're the supplements to has a very important role if that's the route the person choose to go with with their doctor. But as we look at, you know, we're a mental health provider, right? So we always encourage folks to connect with someone, when just the old fashioned talk therapy, that cognitive cognitive behavior therapy that can help you identify what is causing some of the emotions and my behavior. Let me get some meaning behind what's happening to me. So therapy is absolutely is an important part of recovering and in some people's mind or some of the research has indicated that you get more sustained results for long periods of result is with therapy.
Scott Light:We're in February. here, but let me ask you Has there been something recent for each of you where you thought, You know what? We're coming out of this, and I bring it up in context. I remember for me, it was about a week or so ago, I was outside. And I looked at my watch. And my watch said,
exactly 6:27pm. I looked up at the sky. And it wasn't quite dark yet. And I thought, okay, we're getting there. The days are slowly getting longer. And that sun is not quite down just yet. That made me feel better. I smiled right then and there. Have you had a moment like that?
Rejeana Haynes:Oh absolutely! We have I've, I keep moments like that. And I depend on moments like that. And that's where I'll call a call the hope moment, there is hope, after all. Because sometimes we get caught up into what we're seeing and feeling all around us. And we have to grasp to those moments. And absolutely, my moment, I think was Sunday, Saturday or Sunday, I went to the carwash and I was like, Oh, this feels good. I can go wash my car. And I think the day that you mentioned this week where we were 65 degrees and sunny, it says to me that there is hope we were moving, we're going closer toward those consistent days of sunshine. So and that's what's helpful. That's what when people do have that fatness or those that blue, they start to think, okay, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And that's what I think help people make it through. It also is one of those things that may cause people to tolerate pain longer, sometimes don't get the help that they need. Because we keep hoping and thinking that it's going to get better. So that's why I always encourage, connect with a great therapist, just to kind of help you process it. If it's gonna get better, it's gonna get better with or without a therapist. Right. So let's go and get a therapist to help us make sure we're not overlooking something.
Scott Light:Julie, you've got a human breathing 15 month old piece of sunshine in your house right now I gotta say,
Julie Battaglia:Sometimes. Got some teeth coming in. Oh, not so sunny. I think it's kind of similar, similar thing. The other day when I woke up, I noticed it was sunny here. When I woke up. I woke up at the same time but it was significantly lighter in the room and I was like, okay, okay, we're getting there. We're getting there. You know. So I think it's it's small things like that. It's a 60 degree weather in the middle of the week that helps. But then the next day, it's like, oh, 30 degrees. Now my allergies are all messed up and all this stuff. So you know, give and take in Ohio, give and take, you know, take those moments and enjoy when we can when you have the sunshine you know and maybe give some of those away when it's a little bit lower, you're not really feeling it because it will pass you know whatever whether it's positive or negative, it will pass so we just kind of have to keep moving forward. Keep looking at what the next thing is going to
Scott Light:Julie Rejeana, thank you both for being here.
Rejeana Haynes:Thanks for having me.
Scott Light:Yeah, great discussion here to our listeners. You can be part of episodes to come you can always email us your questions or your comments at podcast@Iamboundless.org again don't forget to give us a review that yet another way that we want to hear from all of you. This is the Well-Being podcast brought to you by Boundless.