Listen to learn how authors with autism are writing books who have autistic characters as they share their own voices. How have libraries changed to become more inclusive to those with disabilities? They are no longer just quiet places. Kristen Messer, autism clinic director at Boundless, and Kris Hickey, youth services manager at the Whetstone branch of the Columbus Metropolitan Library, join host Scott Light to discuss neurodivergent characters and authors. You will want to add these books to your reading list.
Listen to learn how authors with autism are writing books who have autistic characters as they share their own voices. How have libraries changed to become more inclusive to those with disabilities? They are no longer just quiet places. Kristen Messer, autism clinic director at Boundless, and Kris Hickey, youth services manager at the Whetstone branch of the Columbus Metropolitan Library, join host Scott Light to discuss neurodivergent characters and authors. You will want to add these books to your reading list.
Welcome everyone to Well-Being, a podcast brought to you by Boundless. Boundless is a nonprofit that provides residential support, autism services, primary health care, day programs, counseling and a whole lot more to children and adults. Our mission is to build a world that realizes the boundless potential of all people. I'm your host, Scott Light. And one thing that is truly boundless is the power of reading and the power of books. Our guests today certainly know this as well. Kristen Messer is an Autism Clinic Director here at Boundless and Kris Hickey is Youth Services Manager at the Whetstone Branch of the Columbus Metropolitan Library. Welcome to you both.
Kris Hickey:Hi Scott.
Kristen Messer:Hi, thank you.
Scott Light:A booming genre in publishing right now is autistic authors with autistic character. So Kris, we have to start with you. You brought with you several books here, we have him right here on our table in the studio, that just so happened to be written by all female authors. What did these books have in common when you research them?
Kris Hickey:So the big thing is, they have characters with autism. So I should probably explain Own Voices what we mean by that before jumping into that. So the Own Voices genre are marginalized or underrepresented groups. And the author writing about them is a member of that community. So it's exciting to see lots of new authors coming forward and sharing their stories through their characters. And that's kind of where it ends, in terms of what do they have in common, because all of the stories are different.
Scott Light:Right.
Kris Hickey:And all of the characters have different experiences and different challenges. And it makes for a dynamic reading experience.
Scott Light:It really does. And Kristen, you know, we all want
Kristen Messer:I think it's amazing, I think that they are to be heard, we all want to connect. How does having these books to Kris's point going mainstream? able to have more opportunities now to be able to kind of connect with these authors and actors, and all of these people who are coming out, you know, admitting that they're having neurodiversities and that it's becoming more prominent in all aspects of life. And so it's really cool to see it in books, books are something that we use so much here to teach our clients, and to help them get into their special interests. And that people who are just like them are writing these books is something so cool for our individuals to see and be a part of.
Scott Light:Here's what we're gonna do: we're gonna come back to this book discussion in just a little bit. Kris, we really appreciate all the research you did, again, you got a stack of books right here on the table. And to our listeners, we promise, you're going to get a list of authors and titles here that you are going to want to write down here in just a few minutes. So right now, though, let's dive into this because there's a really unique partnership that's building between Boundless, and the Columbus Metropolitan Library. And that is that the library reached out to Boundless for training on how to better serve visitors with disabilities. Kris, what prompted this outreach to begin with?
Kris Hickey:So we had questions from customers who wanted to know what more we could offer them. So we reached out to I Am Boundless to see if they did any kind of training. And it was an exciting training. Kristen and I, we talked just before about how there was so much enthusiasm from my colleagues, and we want everyone to feel comfortable coming into our buildings. Inclusion is so important to us. And so we want that feedback from customers. If there is something that you want, that you're not seeing, or we've made you feel uncomfortable in some way, we want that feedback. And Kristen was able to give us such a great perspective. And having us think about things in different ways, in order to make it such an inclusive, welcoming space for everybody.
Scott Light:Kristin, what was that training like?
Kristen Messer:Amazing. We had a really good time, the training that I just did was more with kind of the managerial staff. So it was a little bit smaller group. But we're going to roll it out to tons of staff and the security team.
Scott Light:Wow!
Kristen Messer:I know, we're really getting everybody involved in this, which is so exciting. And they come with that enthusiasm, which gives me the more enthusiasm to kind of make the trainings more fun. And it seems like it's so meaningful for everyone. So, we called it bridging the gap. So we're kind of trying to close that gap of not being able to really serve these people with disabilities, whether you know, it's a physical disability, or neurodiversity or any of those things, we need to think about all of these aspects. And so we talked a lot about how people with neuro diversities and some of these different disabilities that aren't necessarily visible. And we talked about signs and symptoms, we talked about do's and don'ts and some quick helps. I walked around the library for a little bit and kind of tested the staff without them knowing and they did a fantastic job in making sure that I felt supported, but they weren't overbearing. And that's exactly what we're looking for is to let people know that you're there to help without really getting in their face about it. And we've talked about different sensory items, a bunch of Kris's staff came, and they checked out the sensory room in my program. And we came up with some cool sensory bins for them to have at the library. So many library staff have reached out since the training to just like get clarifying questions answered, or to come see things here at Boundless that they could maybe take back and use or to have me come to their different reading sessions and programs. And all in all, it's just been such a great partnership and moving in such a great direction for the library.
Scott Light:This sounds really reciprocal, too. That they're, you're you're providing your expert expertise, your training, and they're coming here and they're just asking for more.
Kristen Messer:Yes, it's been amazing. They're thirsty.
Scott Light:Yeah. And is there a full curriculum here where you mentioned, you know, do's and don'ts and some other things? Do you start with some baselines, and then just start to layer from there?
Kristen Messer:Yeah, that's absolutely how I kind of came up with it. And really, Kris, and a couple of the other managers, and I kind of met ahead of time and discussed what they were really looking for, what information did they want. Because, you know, you could go a million different ways with a training like this. And you could get really specific or really broad. And so we talked about making it a little bit more broad for these managers. So it was about a half hour, nothing super fancy, we kind of all hung out. It was very, you know, informal, they were allowed to ask questions, and I just kind of answered throughout. This next round, we're going to get a little more in depth. And so I'm going to take that exact same training that we did before and kind of break it down. And it's going to be a couple hours long this time, which is even more fun. And it'll be really hands on. And I think making those trainings fun and showing them that this type of field is so fun to work with. And it's already so fun at the library that like meshing it together just makes sense.
Scott Light:And, Kris, what were your takeaways from you and your team?
Kris Hickey:One of the big takeaways, and I wrote this down when you said it, you know, things, phrases to use with people, if if we're seeing someone struggling, you know, we can say to people, it can be overwhelming to be here. You know, how can how can I help you? And something I do want to say to parents is we do not expect people to be quiet. We do not expect people to sit quietly. When children come to our storytimes, if they get up and run around, that's perfectly fine. If they get super excited, and they're very enthusiastic with noise, we're OK with that. So we don't expect children to sit quietly during storytime. So I hope people try us out, come in and experience it. And because we want people there, we want your families there. And we want you to be comfortable and know that whatever your child is doing is fine.
Scott Light:I don't want to get off on a tangent here. But I am going to bring up there was a Washington Post piece not that long ago, and was talking about how libraries all over the country are just evolving into just these great community, they've already always been great community spaces, but they're meetup spaces now. They're places where people are going to do you know their hybrid workspaces. And the sub headline was, and you're not going to get shushed.
Kris Hickey:Yes!
Scott Light:I love that. Right. Because you're not that's not what it is anymore.
Kris Hickey:No, and we do have quiet spaces.
Scott Light:Of course, of course.
Kris Hickey:But there are so many activities happening, you know, for example, in our teen space yesterday, and this is Whetstone in some other branches have this is well. We have a d&d, a Dungeons and Dragons group. And they were laughing and having such a great time. And it was fine. Like, it's OK that there is noise. And it's a meet up space. And there's lots of activities happening in various parts of our buildings. And it's just not a place where we shush people. Unless, you know, there might be some times if someone's talking loudly on their phone, you know
Scott Light:Yeah.
Kris Hickey:But for the most part, we don't expect silence.
Scott Light:Kristen, I've gotta believe that, to use your word"thirsty," that when you've got an organization like the library, when they do come at this, and they're just yearning for this information. Boy, that just makes it training all that much better. And all that much more effective for, for the client, for the customer, for those folks who are walking in those library branches every day?
Kristen Messer:Absolutely. Yeah. It's been amazing to see their reactions, you know, when you go to trainings, and I've done trainings my entire career, you know, for different groups of people, but this has been the most excited group and it makes it so easy to train them because they are so involved, and they want to know these things, and they're excited to learn. And I think that that is just a great picture of what the library is now. It's fun to be there. And I said that when I went in, I went to the main branch to do this. But just walking around, it's not super quiet. It's bright. It's fun. There is all kinds of different types of seating for kids and adults and quiet spaces and dark spaces and light spaces. And they're really working to reach everyone. And that is so important we teach here to our clients. And you know, I work with the little kids, but that the library is this safe, fun place where you can kind of go and learn and play on the computer and all of these things that my kids are really interested in, but typically don't have access to. And the library is the perfect spot for that. And so seeing that they're making it even more perfect for the population that I work with is so heartwarming, and just wonderful to see and feel their enthusiasm in it.
Scott Light:Can your training be customized to other organizations?
Kristen Messer:Oh, yeah. Yeah, call us up. I'm down for any organization, I think that there is so much awareness now. You know, we have changed from Autism Awareness Month to Autism Acceptance. And we're working now to we all know about it, how can we help? And I think so many different organizations are going this way. We even take outings to different restaurants, and the kids help build like pizza boxes, and things like that, and showing them both the facility and our clients that this is somewhere that they can be in these are things that they can do is so helpful to keeping them involved and inclusive in the world around them.
Scott Light:Kris, are you getting feedback yet from people walking in the door, your customers, your patrons who are coming in the library? A getting feedback from them and or getting feedback from from members of your team going, "OK, I'm really seeing the benefit of this training already."
Kris Hickey:Absolutely. I think when you see someone, you know, being more inclusive and saying,"please come to this, like, please come to the storytime." And there was a woman that I was speaking with coming in to make copies. And I said, "you know, we have this program, and we have the storytimes." And she was said "you want me to come?" And I was like "Absolutely, yes." Wow."Yes, you should come." And she said, "Oh, you know, he hasn't really been around other other people." Like come, come and join us, we definitely want you.
Scott Light:That's terrific. That's gonna make you smile, Kristen, when you hear stories like.
Kristen Messer:It does. And there were so many stories like that when we were giving this training that they're already doing these wonderful things. And it can only get better from here, it was amazing to see.
Scott Light:Let's come back to our discussion about books because I want to get to the stack on the table. I wish we had, this is one of those episodes where I wish we had cameras in our studio. Because again, Kris, you did so much great research here. So let's talk about some of these neurodivergent authors here because, again, we're just betting our listeners are going to write down some of these authors and titles here. So Kris, you researched all kinds of different works, you've got, you've got fiction, you looked at memoirs, adult romance and books for teenagers. So tell us about what you brought here on the table.
Kris Hickey:So when I first started thinking about this, so I've been reading characters with autism for many years. My own daughter is a very proud young woman with autism. And for a number of years, they were written by people who were not on the spectrum themselves. And maybe they were a parent, or they had experience with people and and they were fine. There was nothing wrong with these books. But I noticed when I started reading books written by people, it was it was more about the previous books were about how the people with autism impacted others. And the books written by people with autism are how the world impacts them. And it is a it is a very rich experience reading these books. So as I started, I thought, "Oh, wait, this person has autism, this person has autism." And so I kind of like pushed aside my stack of authors that didn't have autism and have a huge stack of authors who do. And a couple of these authors, Katherine Mae, Sally J Pla, as they were writing discovered that they also have autism.
Scott Light:As they were writing!?
Kris Hickey:So Sally J Pla wrote the Someday Birds, and her son has autism. And she was writing this book in honor of him. And as she was doing more of research, she thought "Well, that sounds like me. Wow, that sounds like me." And went through the process and was diagnosed
Scott Light:As an adult?
Kris Hickey:As an adult. Katherine Mae, who has written three books and her book, the Electricity of Every Living Thing, is the book about how she was diagnosed and how she discovered and for her, she was listening to the radio one day, and there was a radio program about autism and a woman was explaining it. And she said,"Wow, that sounds like me." And at one point, as she's listening to this interview, she said out loud to herself in the car,"Well, they shouldn't say that about us." And then she thought"Us? wait a minute." And went through the process found out. Yes, she is a woman with autism. So we're seeing lots of women being diagnosed as adults because for so long, and you could probably speak to this Kristen that at, diagnosing girls was a challenge. It just presents differently. And so people didn't know until later.
Kristen Messer:Yeah, we talked about that a lot in the training too. I as an adult, I'm going through right now getting diagnosed with ADHD because in the 90s, when I grew up kids, especially girls did not have ADHD. And if you did, you got Ritalin. And so now seeing the process, and that adults are starting to be diagnosed with these things and getting the help that they need. And I think the same thing as her sometimes when I'm hearing these things, I'm like, "Oh, I could probably benefit from some help with that." So it's, it's hard as an adult to go through that. And we did talk a lot about that in the training that just because people are not diagnosed with these diversities or disabilities doesn't mean that they don't also need the help.
Scott Light:I think I've got both of you here by several years. And I can I can say I can remember people telling me as a kid, "Oh, boy, that's got he's just a hyper kid." You know, it was just hyper. That's what I was called. Yeah. You know,"boy, he's full of beans, isn't he?" I mean, really? I mean, that's the diagnosis here. Yeah. Okay.
Kristen Messer:That's in the DSM.
Scott Light:Yeah, thanks. OK. Yeah.
Kristen Messer:I think a lot of times our parents often nowadays are moving more towards looking at like social media. There's a lot of Tik Tok videos about kids with autism and parents with autism. And I do tell them to caution that because Tik Tik all about being silly and fun. And, you know, it's not always the exact truth, you don't have to put the truth on the internet, I don't know if you know that. But the internet is not always accurate. And so I do encourage them to look at, I'm excited to get this list, because these are I have not read any of these books, actually, that she brought. But I do research for them, books that her parents have wrote or things that I think would help with situations that they're in specifically. So I'm really excited to get this list for the parents in my program.
Scott Light:Kris, you also brought two books from author, India Holton, and I actually brought with me a quote from India. And she said this, her writing is fueled by two things,"tea and thunderstorms." How creative is that?
Kris Hickey:I love that.
Scott Light:That's really cool.
Kris Hickey:And her books are full of fantasy. So they are Victorian times and some people are witches. And different people have different powers. And there's crime and there's intrigue, and so she's very creative.
Scott Light:I love the title of another book you brought the title is Good Different.
Kris Hickey:Oh, this book is great. So this is about a young girl named Sila. And it's written adverse and could I read just like a tiny clip? So I pulled this aside, and I thought, "Wow,"
Scott Light:Sure! when I read this. It said,"Pretending to be normal is tiring. As soon as mom pulls into the driveway, I get inside, I change. Take off my normal person mask, put on my headphones, play my favorite pop songs on repeat. I watched my favorite episode of Riders of Berk, recite along with the characters, laugh at all my favorite parts. I squeezed my stress ball, I pluck the hairs that grow between my eyebrows, flap my hands. I don't care if it looks weird, because no one is watching. I have to recharge at least enough to do it all again tomorrow." Wow.
Kris Hickey:It's profound
Scott Light:That is, that is profound. Like what is normal, you know? Right. But this is her experience in her body. So Meg Eden Kuyatt. This is the light, this is the experience she has in her own body. And she can put this on paper it can be published and then other people can read this and feel I am not alone. And that is powerful stuff. Who, who couldn't relate to that?
Kris Hickey:Right?
Scott Light:In some form or fashion. That's tremendous. What about Cassandra in reverse?
Kris Hickey:So this is a brand new book and I have been on the hold list for ages. And it's it's Reese Witherspoon has a book club. I don't know if you know that. So that propels books into the atmosphere of instant popularity. And so Holly Smalley, This is called Cassandra in Reverse. And it is about a woman with autism, and things are not going great. But she has discovered time travel. So it's a little Groundhog Day-ish, where she goes back and tries again and tries again and tries again to fix what's going on in her life. And it's very interesting. But she also discovered later in life, that she had autism. She a voice came to her of a character in this series called The Geek Girl series. And she started writing that character, and then discovered "Wow, that's this is coming from me. Maybe I should look into this." And at age 39, she was diagnosed
Scott Light:And you said this book is so popular that you that folks may be on hold for this one?
Kris Hickey:You may be on hold.
Scott Light:You work at the library.
Kris Hickey:And I couldn't get it. Yeah, so I had to wait for it. Tell us about- I'll read it fast so the next person can get it.
Scott Light:Tell us about the book from Katherine May called titled Wintering.
Kris Hickey:Oh, Wintering. So this is Katherine May's first book and it is it is profound so and you can see it's very, it has Elizabeth Gilbert on the cover, the Eat Pray Love Woman.
Scott Light:Oh yeah.
Kris Hickey:And it's called Wintering: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times. And she talks about wintering and two different things. So wintering as in the season, but also wintering as in the time of your life, where you may withdraw from your your daily routines. Maybe they're you know, something traumatic has happened, there's been a loss, you've moved, you know, big shakeups in your life. And she has written essays that coordinate with different months, just about the season and also times of chang. And there's one in there that I love where she talks about,"Sometimes you're an ant, sometimes you're a grasshopper." So the ants, of course are gathering and working and gathering working. And you know, the grasshoppers lazy, sometimes you're an ant, sometimes you're a grasshopper, and I thought that was just so profound,
Scott Light:And are the essays in kind of five to 10 or 20 page kind of chunks more or more bite sized, so to speak?
Kris Hickey:If you like a bite sized chunk of a book, this is you can read a little bit, feel like you really got something, put it away, and then come back to it. So if you're not like a page turner reader, this is this is really good read, too.
Scott Light:Kristen, you've got a whole new list here to share.
Kristen Messer:I'm excited. That's what I need. Because I am so bad at sitting and reading. I know I said I was going for the ADHD diagnosis stuff, but I cannot just sit and read a book. So this is really cool to see. And I think that it's cool that people who are writing these kind of understand that because maybe that's the way that they read to. And that is also so helpful for people in this community to understand that these books are written in ways that maybe are easier for them to read too. And so that's so cool to hear.
Scott Light:Let's also mention this as we start to wrap up our conversation. This is the 150th anniversary celebration of the Columbus Metropolitan Library. So a little history here. Let's go back to March 4, 1873, when the library was founded in a single room inside the original city hall. Today, 23 locations serving all of Franklin County. So Kris, maybe as we start to wrap it up, can you mention just a few events, there are a lot, but maybe a few big events happening this summer, where we can all join in the celebrations?
Kris Hickey:Well, it's summer reading challenge is happening right now. So all of our locations have activities, and they're different in most locations. So I would get on the website and look at your favorite branch and see what they have going on in there. So we we have magicians, we have people bringing in animals, there is storytimes.
Scott Light:Remind us, your web address where people can go and find out all the information.
Kris Hickey:So go to Columbuslibrary.org, and there's a tab at the top that says events. And you can actually select your favorite branch and it will show you the things that are happening on different days.
Scott Light:Excellent. Let's wrap it up this way. What book or books are you both reading this summer?
Kristen Messer:I actually just started reading Life Animated. Kind of going off of what Kris I knew was going to talk about today got me interested in picking up this book. And it is a father who wrote it about his young son with autism and how, it's also a movie I think like a lot of people have seen it, but this kid was so obsessed with Disney and his parents kind of found a way to communicate with him through Eurex through lines and movies to kind of communicate with him in this way and met him really on his level. And that's kind of what we're teaching in these trainings is meeting people on their level. And so this is a really great book to kind of get us in the, in the mindset for that.
Scott Light:That's awesome. Kris, what about you?
Kris Hickey:So I just finished a book by Francesca Lia Block, and she's one of my favorite writers. She's been writing for decades. And her new book, House of Hearts, she writes magical realism, which is basically realistic fiction with a hint of magic, so not enough to be considered fantasy. And it takes place in the desert outside of Los Angeles in a real place called the Salton Sea, which I had never heard of before. But it was once a resort and now it's a polluted lake. And it's surrounded by poverty, but it's about these young people that are in love and and what happens to them and it's lyrical and fascinating.
Scott Light:OK, isn't that great when you're just getting engrossed in a good book. So, that's just that's really, really good stuff. Thank you both for being here. And also as we wrap it up here, Kristen, for organizations out there who may be interested in your training, how can they find you?
Kristen Messer:Well, the library found me by emailing me. I had met a couple of them at a sensory activity and I gave out my cards and that is fine. I can get you where you need to go. My email address is KMesser@iamboundless.org and you know if not go ahead and go on our website and there's inquiries and intake people that can help you with that as well.
Scott Light:Okay to our listeners you can be part of episodes to come as well. You can always email your questions or comments at podcast@iamboundless.org. And again, don't forget to give us a review that's yet another way we want to hear from you as well. This is the Well-Being Podcast, brought to you by Boundless.