Hear from two mothers who both lost a loved one during the holidays last year and what lessons they learned and are willing to share with others. Karen Cousins, program director, NAMI Franklin County and Dr. Jill Crane, psychology post-doctoral fellow, Boundless, join host Scott Light for some heartfelt suggestions on not caving to expectations and celebrating in a way that works for you.
Hear from two mothers who both lost a loved one during the holidays last year and what lessons they learned and are willing to share with others. Karen Cousins, program director, NAMI Franklin County and Dr. Jill Crane, psychology post-doctoral fellow, Boundless, join host Scott Light for some heartfelt suggestions on not caving to expectations and celebrating in a way that works for you.
We're going to start off with a question for this episode. What is your best advice on coping with grief during the holidays? Joe, would you start us off?
Jill Crane:Just remember that your grief isn't right or wrong. It's human.
Scott Light:Love that Karen.
Karen Cousins:Take care of yourself.
Scott Light:That is our topic this month, folks. And boy is this timely Welcome to Well Being a podcast brought to you by boundless. Boundless is a nonprofit that provides residential support, autism services, primary health care day programs, counseling, and a whole lot more to children and adults. Our mission is to build a world that realizes the boundless potential of all people. I'm your host, Scott light. So you heard the voices of our guests. Let me officially introduce you to them. Karen Cousins is Program Director with Nami, Franklin County. And Dr. Jill Crane is a psychology postdoctoral fellow here at Boundless. Welcome to you both.
Jill Crane:Thank you,
Scott Light:Karen, let me come back and ask you to expound on our kind of rapid fire that we started with there in the beginning, you said, taking care of yourself during the holidays here, expand on that a little bit, if you would.
Karen Cousins:Holidays can be stressful, whether you're in the middle of grief or not, because, you know, it's the family's coming. It's the perfect dinner, it's the perfect gift. And, you know, the house has to be clean, and all of that. But when you're going through grief, it changes everything. And so you have to take care of yourself. Because if you've had Christmas dinner for the last 15 years, and you cook and you, you know, the decorations, it's okay to say I can't do it this year, it's perfectly fine. Or let's do a potluck. You need a plan A, a plan B, and all the way down the alphabet if necessary.
Scott Light:I'm so glad you mentioned. Well, food in the beginning, I stress over the turkey. Why am I stressing over a bird? I mean, I want it to taste good. Don't get me wrong. But you know what I mean? I
Karen Cousins:I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, yeah, we had a goose one Thanksgiving. And it was horrible. And so we, my husband, and I each took a bite and threw it in the trash. So we just had sides. And that was fine. And there was no grief. And while the grief was that we didn't have a meal. But yeah, it's all about doing what you need to do to get through the day, the week, the month, whatever it is.
Scott Light:And let's face it, the sides are really good. Yes, they are around the holidays. Joe, let me come back to your answer off the top, you said, Remember that grief isn't right or wrong, that it's human.
Jill Crane:So the holidays, especially are a time when we all have expectations of how How's dinner going to be? Well, I think this is how it should be. How's gift giving gonna be? Well, this is how it should be this is how it's always been. Or this is how ideally it would be. And so we have a lot of shoulds that we place on ourself, even without grief as part of the picture for for the holidays. And then grief comes in and it complicates things. Because it's something that there isn't really a should about how you should be feeling or how you should be reacting to certain things. And there are some moments during the holidays that you might expect to be sad, where you're not sad. And there are some times when it's a completely neutral situation, and it might sweep you off your feet. And I think it's important to remember that, like, in other times in the holidays, it's true to that neither reaction is wrong. It's not wrong to be sad, it's not wrong to be feeling the holiday spirit. It's not wrong to have trouble functioning, it's not wrong to be doing just fine and powering through. It's all human. It's a human experience.
Scott Light:I also want to start on a personal note with both of you because this is this is going to be a powerful episode for our listeners. In many ways. Both of you do incredible work. And both of you have also experienced the unimaginable and that is the loss of a child. Karen Would you share what you feel comfortable sharing about that loss for you?
Karen Cousins:My daughter died a year ago this past Thanksgiving. And she had severe and persistent mental illness. For the last 25 years, she would she died about a month before her 52nd birthday. And you know my parents passed away I've had friends die. And I can only speak for because grief is different for everyone. And I can only speak about my experience, but this is the most difficult thing I've ever experienced in my life. And it's the most difficult thing I've experienced in my life, and I have I have memories of her before she was ill. And after she was ill, I thought she had postpartum depression. And so I thought, well, you know, as what I do, why, let's look some things up. Let's get a counselor, let's do this, let's do that. And her behavior really spiraled out of control. And, and if you've never seen mental illness up close and personal, you don't recognize it as such, especially if someone's between 18 and 25. Ish. You think it's something else. And once I realized what was going on, I found NAMI. I don't remember how I found it. But I saved my life, and took classes. All of our services are free, and volunteered for a while. And then I moved to Columbus and started working for NAMI. And she, not only her diagnosis was schizoaffective disorder, and she also suffered from anosognosia, which means she didn't have the insight to know that she was ill. So therefore, if, you know, if I don't think I'm ill, why would I take medication. So whenever she was in the hospital, or in jail for doing something, I would get on a plane, I'd fly to Los Angeles, and try to get her the help that she did not want. Sometimes that worked. And other times it didn't. So when a year ago Thanksgiving, I got a call from her dad. And she had been unmedicated and homeless in Los Angeles for about the last five years. And I would sometimes just go out to LA and drive around looking for her. I was thrilled when she would land up in, it sounds awful, but I was thrilled when she was either in jail, or the hospital. Because she had a roof over her head. She wasn't on the street, less danger. And so I got the call, and someone had given her something with fentanyl in it. And and it's interesting about grief, because the first two weeks after she died, I cleaned my house every day. And I mean, I was up for like 22 hours one day. And I think it was not wanting to feel I've gone to I think every bereavement group that OhioHealth offers. And what I've learned up to this point is that it's okay to handle this the way I need to handle it. Sometimes I was in the store just earlier today, and my husband called me and he said I can't find the the lint thing that goes in the dryer. I said, Well, why are you calling me? And he said, Well, I said I'm sure I put it back. Where would I put it? And then I thought, oh, did I have one of those brain things where, you know, I said, Well look in the refrigerator, I don't know where it is. But he found it and I had left it somewhere. I've driven places and you know, taken the wrong exit it just comes and goes and or I'll be in the grocery store and I'll see a cereal she liked when she was 10 and I'll tear up and it's all okay, I've in a year I've come to understand that. And in one of the groups someone said to me, you'll never be the same. And I thought that had not occurred to me. But it's true. And it's yeah, she was she was my daughter.
Scott Light:Whats your daughter's name?
Karen Cousins:Angela.
Scott Light:What is this time of your like for you?
Karen Cousins:It's just filled with I have a I have another daughter who's coming. She lives in Los Angeles. She's an artist and she's coming to visit for Christmas. So, in fact, she was she was coming every two months. I said, Do you think I'm gonna die? Is that why you keep getting on a plane coming? And she said, well, well, her sister died. And then her dad died three weeks later. So she's had a lot on her. And I think so I'm family now, you know, it's just me. So it's just hard. And sometimes you are, you're in the middle of something that's just very ordinary. And it will, a memory will just hit you, and I'll tear up. You know, it might be 15 seconds. And then I go, okay. All right. And I continue on. It is hard. It is, it's very hard.
Scott Light:Well, maybe your daughter heard the story that there's a dryer vent in your refrigerator, just wants to come home. And that's okay. That's okay. That's okay, too. Jill, your daughter, Gianna was born and passed away at eight days old. And this was also last year last December? What can you share about your loss? So
Jill Crane:Karen and I both experienced the loss of a child, but it's very different circumstances, for sure. But when I was listening to you, I heard some similarities, too. I'm not, you're not the only person who's teared up at the grocery store for seemingly, you know, a really benign reason. So this year, when I was doing some grocery shopping, I pushed my cart past some of those Christmas gift piles. And they had one of those little rotary phones, the little Fisher Price rotary phones. And it just struck me that, you know, Gianna, would have been old enough. And, you know, motorically skilled enough to pull the little dial and watch the numbers go around and pick up the phone. And we could have played together with that at this point. And that is one of those unusual kind of unexpected moments where you find yourself tearing up or you find yourself struck, like I said earlier swept off your feet by something that other people wouldn't necessarily think would would cause that reaction. But to answer the first part of your question, in 2022, I became pregnant with my first child, we had a very typical, non concerning pregnancy. And it all went wrong in the last 20 to 30 minutes of delivery. In fact, there was a shift change right before she was born. And the nurse who was shifting with another nurse kind of made that okay sign and was like, Oh, we're great. Everything's going fine. And so when all of a sudden our heart tones were going down, and there was a whole lot more people in the room than I thought was probably normal. We just kind of got thrown headlong into this event and this new way of life. So when my daughter was born, she had an Apgar score of one which means that her heart was beating. And they went and took her and warmed her up and put her on a CPAP. And I I heard her make a little noise. And I was, like, elated from where I was because they were working on me. And for a good period of time, we didn't really know what was going to happen. So everyone talks about that golden hour after you deliver a baby where you hold them and you feed them and you get to bond right away. And I didn't see her again until five or six hours later when she was being transported to Nationwide Children's. And we went to see her the next day, and she was responding, moving. She smiled when she heard me cooing at her. And we got the news that she had experienced something called hypoxic ischemic encephalopathy. HIV for short. And it happens in one to three in 1000 births. A number of the folks that I've worked with over the years as a person who provides psychological assessment and works with children with developmental disabilities, that's where their journeys started. And that put me in a very unique position as the person in the family who has seen children come out of this and has seen these children go on to live married very meaningful, beautiful lives. So when ever someone would come in and say, Oh, we did a scan, and here's our result. I always translated it back to, oh, I know a kid. I know a person who's been through this, and let me tell you, life is different for them. But it is beautiful for them. I love working with this person. And so that was where I was for the first three or four days. And then around the fifth or sixth day, we got the news that she wouldn't be stable enough to receive some of the treatments that would, that would have a chance at saving her. And the weight that puts on you as a person is kind of unlike anything I've ever experienced. So my husband and I are Catholic. And one of the one of the nice elements of the Catholic faith is that when a baptized baby passes away, the the idea or the recognition is that they are a saint in heaven, because they were you can't be any can't be any more perfect than you are then. And so it's been helpful and comforting to lean on my faith and to imagine her as I believe she is, which is safe and happy. And looking over me and my husband, Jim, taking care of us in a way that we had hoped we would have been able to take care of her. Our experience for the holidays is a little different. We haven't put up a tree, we are probably going to spend time with my husband's family like we did last year. And we are kind of taking it day by day doing what we feel like so we have a little ornament that has her picture on it that's out even if it's not on a tree. And we have a little lantern that says your light shines in our hearts forever, something like that. And we are just trying to take it day by day.
Scott Light:Well, you're both just so strong to share this with our listeners. And it is so appreciated. Again, let me ask you both how your this experience these personal experiences with these respective losses, how has that then translated to the important work that you do? Karen, with with the work that you do at Nami?
Karen Cousins:Something that I wanted to add. My daughter had a son and he's now 26. And he lives in Northern California. And when he was little, I tried to explain to him about his mom. And because she wasn't like other moms. And I said, Well, your mom is sick. And I said but it's not like the cold or the flu. I said it makes her say and do odd, very odd things. And he was so angry that she wasn't like other moms. He just didn't understand. And when he was a teenager, I said, you know, I said we can always talk. I said but you're old enough, you can look up what schizoaffective disorder is and to get a better understanding. And he really didn't want to. And he came to visit on he's still in school and came to visit me from Northern California on his spring break. And I had found a journal that Angela had written when he was about three years old and where she wanted him to grow up to be, you know, a good man and all of this and so I said this is really yours. And I gave it to him. And I said you don't have to read it now. But he did read it and, and he said that really helped. That helped me a lot. And he said, I want to thank you, he calls me Grammy, I want to thank you Grammy for teaching me all these years to be kind. And it just, I almost fell down the stairs, I was just blown away. He's turned out to be a really nice young man. And he finally got it. He said, You know, when I'm on bark on the transportation system up there, and I see people taunting people with mental illness or treating. He said that was that was how they treated my mom. And he finally got it, you know, but he never knew her well, so he only knew her. But your question. I mainly work with families that are the caregivers of someone who has a has a loved one with a mental health condition. And there are other people in the organization who work with peers. But the thing that I try to get across to families who take our classes, and I'm facilitate support groups, is that this is an illness. This is not bad behavior. This is not teenaged angst, or, you know, something that, you know, it's it's an illness, it just happens to affect your brain. You know, if you have heart disease, it's your heart, if you have you know, lung cancer, it's your lungs. And that's really difficult for parents, spouses, siblings, whoever it may be. to, to, to, to really get on a cellular level. Because I think the stigma of mental illness is so great. I've had I had a parent tell me once I'd rather have my son have cancer than the mentally ill. That's how, how the wall is up. And once you see it in their eyes, that they finally get it, then they can become an advocate, you know, and try and help. But you know, and I didn't make this up, but, but having loving someone with a mental illness, you know, it's a marathon, it is not a sprint, and there may be great times, and, and periods for someone's doing really well. And then medication stops working. And, you know, they circle back maybe to where they were. There are people who, who have the insight and take medication and go to counseling, and live good lives, you know, but it's a broad spectrum. And I get great joy when people finally understand that, okay, this is what I'm dealing with, how can I help my son daughter has been whoever, and then they start working towards that.
Scott Light:Jill, I saw you nodding your head when when Karen was talking about where she gets joy when when kind of that light bulb moment or moments happen.
Jill Crane:And it's something that I experienced in my work as well. So when I do psychological assessment, or developmental assessment, I really find it the most rewarding when a child seems to have a better understanding of themselves. But also when parents have that lightbulb moment where they realize that my kid is not just acting up, I am not just a bad parent. And there are treatments available or approaching life with this different perspective might actually turn some of these problems on their head and make them opportunities to grow. One of the things that I do in therapy and testing is a lot of psycho education. And one of the things that really is a highlight of my job is providing those light bulb moments to people. Another thing that kind of struck me about what Karen said is that having been to a similar place yourself, you're in a better position to teach them those things. I was a clinician before I had Gianna and my understanding my empathy, my ability to integrate past trauma for parents and for kids into how I'm working with them has grown exponentially in the past year, I, I attended the AAA IDD, so the American Association on Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities Conference this past year. And I'm the co chair of this psychology interest network. And when I was speaking, they're part of what I did is my talk was I did a career dedication. So I dedicated the rest of my career to my daughter. I am not lying when I say that I feel that Gianna has been a blessing not just to my life, but to my work. And she is strengthened my resolve to really understand people and to help people understand themselves and their children. One of the things I mentioned at the conference was, I want people to walk away from knowing me and from working with me. I want them to walk away with the confidence that life might be different, but it can still be good. In the same way that when I was in that hospital room trying to explain to my parents and my husband, even if she can't talk, did you see that smile? Even if she needs a G Tube, I know kids with G tubes, and they still have a great day, maybe they don't eat lunch like the other kids do. But they still have a good day. Maybe they have trouble communicating. But I have seen some real whizzes with their communication devices. And they'll tell you this, that and the other thing about their day and what they want and what they need.
Scott Light:We've had them on the podcast, yes, we had them sharing through their communications devices on on these very episodes. So
Jill Crane:I find that when I'm in the position to provide that education, and to increase that understanding that the future can be good. I feel really inspired by my daughter to do that.
Scott Light:It is interesting. And to our listeners, I just say trust me on this, and that I'm sitting, you know, two and a half feet away from from Karen and Jill here, but I can just it is palpable, for me, sitting across from both of you of just how impassioned both of you are about your work if I can just feel it.
Karen Cousins:Well you know, it gave me patience, because we had a family to family class, which is for caregivers, and it helps family members learn how to communicate with their loved one, how to take care of themselves. medications or illnesses. So one class each week, and there was a couple in the class, and it's eight weeks and the seventh week. The wife said I well, I can't say an expletive about how she didn't believe any of this was going to work and and they didn't come back for the eighth class. And I thought she's not ready. She's not ready to really grab hold of this. She's still pushing away that there's nothing wrong with him. He's, he's going to be okay. And so, sometimes I'll reach out to families that are little. Yeah, you guys do good work, but it's not it's not for us, you know, and I'll invite them, you know, we're having a family seminar. This weekend, maybe you'd like to come or, you know, and, and eventually, people do come back and they get it. And that. That makes me smile. makes me smile.
Scott Light:You're both again, respective experts in your fields in multiple fields. I did a lot of reading too. And I wanted to properly prep and get your reactions to a couple of things. One counselor even wrote grief, especially at these moments of the year can bring for some people in expressively sad moments, and for others, they can be full of holiday cheer. And Gillette, you touched on this a few minutes ago. All of those feelings are valid. Give them all space and give yourself permission to feel without judgment. Another counselor wrote that grief is often very physical. And and we talk about self care a lot on these episodes that that mind body connection, it is proven unequivocally to be so, so important. What is your best advice? Right now because stress levels are so high and they're even higher for somebody who may be going through a grieving process. What's your best advice for self care right now?
Jill Crane:Hmm, a lot of people out there, and I know I was one of those people at the beginning approached, events approached, even just the day to day with this idea that I have to grieve, I have to make progress in some way. And at the beginning of the day, I wouldn't even know what that meant. But I knew that, in my mind, there was some idea of what grieving well was. And by the end of the day, I would have a sense of whether I did that or not. And that is a really, really hard way to look at yourself throughout the year. But especially during the holidays, when, like you said, there are additional stressors, there are additional expectations. One of the things that we talk about in the psychological world, we talk about behavioral activation, this idea that you go out and you do things, even if you're not feeling like doing them to improve your mood. I want to say that there's room for that. But I think that there needs to be much more room for Grievers to rest, and to relax, and to lean into this idea that the holidays don't have to be this explosive, exciting festivit time of year, there's so much room for low key events for using that cozy image of the holidays to your advantage. Because getting out and doing things can be exhausting. And outside of the depression, research, there's grief, which is its own kind of beast, and has a lot more specific things tied into it that we can't just solve by getting up going out going to the potluck anyway, going to the Christmas concert, and participating exactly as you used to, you want to be aware of those feelings, and you want to accept those feelings and let them move through you. So there's moments where you might expect to be sad, and you won't be and you may feel like questioning that. But just know that it's human to sometimes be able to get through a certain event that you thought you wouldn't be able to. And you might end up in the grocery store tearing up over a fisher price for rotary phone or a box of cereal. And there's nothing wrong with that either. That doesn't mean that you're slipping in your grief, progress, whatever that means. It doesn't mean that you are out of commission for the rest of the day, the week, the month. It's your experience, and it's valid. And it is human to be reminded and caught up in feelings surrounding those reminders.
Karen Cousins:Self care is something I write about, I do an article in our newsletter every month. And the December article is generally about families. And as well, as well as peers, but it's if you're traveling with your loved one, let's say out of state or even locally, think about things that will make the experience good for both of you. You need to make sure that you have enough medic, if you're going away for a week or a weekend, you need to have enough medication. Have all the important phone numbers of doctors, psychiatrists, pharmacies handy so that you if something does come up, you can address it. And alcohol, alcohol and prescription medication doesn't usually go very well together. So I remind people about that. And then again, also about the expectations that it's okay if one family member said Well, last Christmas, we invited our daughter who has a mental health condition to the family dinner 20 people and she exhibited all kinds of strange behavior and she ruined it for everyone. And so we were not going to invite her this year. And I said, Well, that's one thing you could do. But I said maybe you could talk to her beforehand. And inviter and, and the bottom line is I deal with a lot of reality. The bottom line is it'll it will go fine. Or it won't. I mean, it's got to be one or the other. And if you're not willing to risk that, maybe you take her out for a special luncheon with, you know, her cousin, her sister her whoever. That's Plan B And each family has to have I think I mentioned earlier, plan A and plan B and Plan C. But, you know, remember your humanity, yes, this person may have bipolar disorder, but they're a human being. And they want to be loved, just like everybody else in the family, so figure out a way that you can include them. And sometimes you can't depending on what's going on with them, but make the effort.
Scott Light:You know we were also talking about, you hit on the traditions of this time of the year, you said you don't have a tree up right now. The holidays, of course, full of traditions, those can be tough for people who are grieving a loss, I read about two things from again, a couple of experts who said, it can be important for some people to honor traditions and honor memories during this time of the year. But, or maybe not. But But and or, you can also create new traditions, maybe setting a place for that special one that you've lost, still setting a place for them at the table, or lighting a candle for them saying a prayer for them, all kinds of things. Karen, what do you think about that? What is your mind go? Maybe even personally, for you, but also professionally when it comes to holiday traditions?
Karen Cousins:Personally, it's it's never really been about gifts. For me, personally, I have a tree in the living room, I have one downstairs in the family room, there's just something about tree lights, and jazz on the on my CDs, that makes me feel warm and fuzzy. And I love that. And that's what I do for me for right now. I have pictures of Angela around the house. And I had asked a counselor, I started seeing a counselor, right after she died. And I said well, maybe maybe I shouldn't. I said maybe maybe it's too much, you know? And she said, No, no, it's okay. You know, and, and maybe you'll take maybe in a year, you'll have one picture on a mantel, you won't have one on your office desk and in your bedroom and, you know, all over. But I think people have to do what is comfortable. I was just in a Christmas bereavement group last week. And one lady said her father had died. And she said, I carry a picture of my dad. I mean, when I was like 10 years old. And she said, if I go hiking, it's in my backpack, if it was at Thanksgiving wasn't at the table, but it was on a piece of furniture right by it. And she said it's in my purse right now, she said may sound crazy to everyone else. She said, but it makes me feel good. So I think people are doing different things. And it's not right or wrong. You know, it's what you're what you're comfortable with.
Jill Crane:And I think that's part of self care you releasing yourself from I should do this or other people will expect me to do that. I might be expecting myself to be able to do a certain thing or to do something just right, like I did last year or the way I would have done it if my loved one was still here. And the self care response to that is, is it something you really want to do? Or is it something you feel like you have to do to make grief progress or to continue this sense of normalcy? Because Christmas lights and jazz music feels good to you and having pictures of your daughter feels good to you. And for me, I have my my phone background is her handprints and that feels right to me. And having her picture in my office feels right to me. And some people might say Oh, is that okay for work? Yeah, it's okay for work for me. So, approaching the holidays, but any time of year with Is it right or wrong? Well, is it right for me is probably the better question to ask.
Scott Light:As we start to wrap up our conversation here let's also certainly include talking about getting help from a professional grief can sometimes trigger or exacerbate mental health conditions like anxiety, post traumatic stress. Sometimes strong feelings of sadness make it difficult to Tell if you're experiencing grief versus depression, or both. Additionally, many people also experience challenges to their mental health during the colder darker months of the winter seasons, which we know all all too well here in the Midwest. And Joe, why don't you start us off here, professional, like yourself, can certainly help to navigate all of this.
Jill Crane:And one of the things that is really beneficial, I would say, even if you cannot work with an individual therapist, or there's a long waitlist for a counselor in your area, one of the most helpful things that I've encountered over the course of this year is grief support groups. And especially support groups that are particular to your specific loss. So, for example, it was not too long after Gianna passed that I've found an organization called hope for HIE, and its parents who have lost their children in their parent loss group. And they run zoom meetings where maybe no one in my immediate area has experienced what I've experienced, but I can talk to someone in Canada and I can talk to someone in the next state over who has met with this very particular sort of grief. And there's something so validating about expressing the things that you feel alone in the ways your grief is manifesting itself and having someone else say, Me too.
Karen Cousins:In that same vein, I found a group for parents who've lost adult children. So I understand that completely in that everybody in the room was on Zoom, but everybody in the room has had that same experience. And so they get it like maybe some because I've been in other groups where it was just you know, spouses or siblings or whatever. But the group for parents of adult children who have passed away, was the most meaningful one for me.
Jill Crane:If I could just something, please, just one thing, because I know that this is about managing your own grief during the holidays, but especially during the holidays, but also be around, I've encountered people who want to support me or other people who are grieving, and aren't really sure how to do that. They don't want to step on your toes, they don't want to remind you of something that's making that's they don't want to remind you have something traumatic, they don't want to ruin your good mood. And something that I'd like to share is that you are not reminding them of their lost loved one because we are pretty constantly aware of our reality. It has been so meaningful for me to have people say g on his name, or include her in Christmas cards, or even just mentioning that I'm thinking about you this week. And some people may not have that same reaction. Some people may still be in a place where they don't want to talk about what happened or answer specific questions. I certainly would probably advise against asking about nitty gritty elements of the grief as opposed to just my thoughts are with you. But I think it's really important to to just be warm towards that person. Maybe you don't even talk about the person they're grieving, but you approach them with that warmth. And you're just kind of there bearing witness to what they're experiencing.
Scott Light:No matter what, most of the time. It's hard to go wrong with warmth and humanity. Right for the most part that can usually get us through right. Thank you both for coming in sharing your personal perspectives and your professional perspective as well. This has been a powerful episode.
Karen Cousins:Thank you for inviting us
Scott Light:I certainly wish you and your families a happy healthy and safe holiday season we wish that to all of our listeners as well as we wrap up season three of well being here in 2023 Don't worry we are already planning season four right now. And again to our listeners you can be part of episodes to come you can email us your questions and comments anytime at podcast at Iamboundless.org This is the Well-Being podcast brought to you by Boundless.