My Personal List: Four Critical Questions for Behavior Intervention

So many of you feel like you are being used as firemen right now, running from one fire to the next, trying to put out the biggest flames. This week, I share the four critical questions that I ask any teacher who flags me down for behavior assistance, why these four questions are so important, and how to facilitate these conversations without causing a rift in your professional relationships.

If you're overwhelmed with behavior response right now, this could be a game-changer for you.

Mentioned in this episode:
School for School Counselors Mastermind

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Transcript

Steph Johnson: 0:06

Hey there, school counselor, welcome back to the School for School Counselors podcast. I'm Steph Johnson, a full-time school counselor, just like you, and I am so excited that you've chosen to join me for another podcast episode where we're going to continue our discussion from last week about behavior intervention. I know so many of you feel like you are being used as firemen right now, just running from one fire to the next trying to put things out. And last week on the podcast we talked about some of those tier one fundamentals that could be put into place in a classroom that could maybe help mitigate some of those issues on your campus where we could actually encourage teachers to take the upper hand in their classrooms to really establish some good routines and procedures, making sure they're prepared, those kinds of things. And the conversation since that podcast episode came out has been really, really interesting, not only in our School for School Counselors Facebook group, but also in our Mastermind group as well. We've really been thinking this through and talking about it and we had a really interesting development in our Mastermind conversation the following Tuesday. So you've probably heard me talk about our Mastermind before. It's where we all get together and just kind of geek out on School Counseling, the things that are working on our campus, the things we wish were working better. We put our heads together. We come up with ideas and solutions and approaches for making things run at our schools with our students and our parents and our staff. And so, as we were talking through these fundamentals for behavior intervention, I was talking about the four things that I always ask my campus teachers to provide when I'm called in to deal with behavior intervention, and I didn't mention it in the podcast episode because I wasn't sure it would be relevant to you, but, as many people have noted since that conversation, maybe it is, maybe it's something that I need to be putting out into the world. So I'm going to offer to you this week the four things that I ask for when I'm called to assist with behavior intervention, and these may not be right at the outset of the situation, it might not be in the moment, but towards the beginning of this intervention or towards the beginning of this relationship with the student, I'm going to be asking for these four things. So, first, when I'm called to aid in behavior intervention and I'm not talking like a one off issue, I'm talking about something that's starting to look like it's going to be pretty consistent.

Steph Johnson: 3:02

The first question I'm going to ask is what are the tier one procedures in place in that classroom? Does the teacher have an effective system for getting attention in the classroom, perhaps when students are able to talk or visit or work in groups? How do we bring it all back in? How do we get students' attention without endlessly asking for it, without shouting with all of those things? Do we have a good way to get attention and get things back on track? Does the teacher have good Tier 1 procedures in place for materials, for movement in the classroom, for communicating what conversation needs to look and sound like? Do they have good systems in place for how students get help? All of these things are Tier 1 fundamentals of classroom management, so we want to make sure those are in place for a couple of reasons.

Steph Johnson: 4:00

Number one misbehavior can come up. When students aren't sure of the expectation, when they feel scattered, when things feel a little frantic or frenzied, that can definitely cause a level of anxiety to rise. Sometimes students just see an opportunity, right? And so we want to really take away any of that. We want to make sure that we're streamlined, we are purposeful in all the things happening in that classroom and that every single person knows what to do.

Steph Johnson: 4:34

If you've worked with me ever in school counseling, you know I'm a huge fan of the CHAMPS framework. If you haven't looked into that, you might Google it. It's a brilliant solution for letting students know the expectation in a classroom. But it doesn't necessarily have to be CHAMPS. It just needs to be fundamental routines and procedures in place so that all students know what to do and how to do it. So that's always the first thing I'm looking at when I walk into a classroom, particularly if we have more than one student who's showing some dysregulation. Sometimes that's the culprit. Teachers don't like to hear that, but it can often be the case or at least be a contributing factor to the unrest. So we want to just nip that in the bud.

Steph Johnson: 5:26

Second, which kind of falls in line with tier one procedures, is does the teacher have a consistent schedule or routines in place? In elementary school this often looks like a visual schedule, where we post the routine for the day visually with some cues, so students know they can match the pictures if they can't read the words. They know what's happening now, they know what's coming next. They can anticipate what's going to happen in their day. That sort of structure can be really reassuring and very soothing to students, particularly if they're prone to dysregulation, if they're coming from chaotic home environments, those kinds of things, or even if they're coming from a chaotic time in their day such as lunch or recess. That reassurance can really make a huge difference. And please don't jump to the conclusion that visual schedules are only for the itty-bitties on elementary campuses. In secondary it might be a posted routine or procedure for that classroom. Could I walk in as an emergency substitute teacher? We hope that doesn't happen to a school counselor, but could anybody walk in as an emergency substitute in that classroom and immediately be able to jump into the routines and procedures of the class? Is it posted, is it obvious, is it apparent? Could they ask the students in that classroom how's your class structured? What do you do first, what do you do next? And could the students tell them? It's super, super important that we have that kind of structure and expectation in place.

Steph Johnson: 7:14

Let me tell you a story Back in the days when I was teaching, a hundred years ago. It feels like I was once scheduled to be observed and evaluated by my campus principal. And when the day of the evaluation came around, I had laryngitis. I completely lost my voice. It was just this little croaky, whispery sort of voice. There was no way I was going to be able to be loud. And I taught in the special rotation. So I had some larger class sizes than our academic teachers and I remember the principal looking at me that morning and saying hey, you know what? It's no big deal. Let me reschedule this observation. I don't think today's the right day for it. And I managed to croak out to them and say no, go ahead, come on, in, come see what we've got going on. Of course they looked at me like I was crazy. They came in to observe anyway, and we were able to run our class without skipping a beat Because we had the routines, procedures and expectations in place. The students knew exactly what was going to happen, they knew exactly what was expected of them and they knew how it was all going to go down. They could have run that class without me for the most part if I needed them to. So do your teachers have those kinds of routines in place? It may not be to that extent, but can you see evidence of it when you walk into the classroom? So, first, are Tier 1 procedures? Second, is that schedule or routine?

Steph Johnson: 8:50

Third, I always ask teachers what's your incentive structure in your classroom? How do students know they're doing a great job? How do they get rewarded for that? How do they get recognized for their hard work? This is something so many teachers overlook, right? They feel like it's too much work, it takes too much time out of their lesson, and I get it because I used to be in those shoes. I understand, but it's just like a stitch in time saves nine, right? If we can't address that behavior early, if we can be proactive about it, it's going to save us a ton of headaches later on in the class period.

Steph Johnson: 9:30

What's the incentive structure in that classroom? And further, what's the incentive structure for that particular student? Sometimes individual students require their own incentive structures. So what does that look like? How is it implemented? Is it implemented consistently? These are all things to be asking as we look into this dysregulation.

Steph Johnson: 9:58

And fourth, and this is the kicker, this is the one I get the stink eye about most often. But where is your behavior documentation so far? Man, if I had a dollar for every time I've asked this question and was met with the deer in headlights, look, or the blank stare y'all. I would be a millionaire, I would not need to do this job anymore. But here's the thing. I'm not asking this question because it's a gotcha, right. I'm not trying to catch anybody in anything, but often we have situations in classrooms where teachers just get fed up with kids or they just don't like something about them. They don't know what it is, they can't put their finger on it, but there's just something about this student and this teacher that is not meshing well.

Steph Johnson: 10:51

We need the behavior documentation to be able to see if we can establish a pattern, if we can tease out the frequency of these situations, if we can tease out the duration of how long they go. This doesn't mean they need to be keeping super detailed notes on this, but we need something. We need a little something to go off of so we can have a good understanding of what we're walking into as we begin to address this dysregulation. It's hard being a classroom teacher and feeling like you have to document all the things right your documenting behavior, your documenting 504 accommodations, your documenting special education interventions and accommodations and all the things and you're turning in lesson plans and you're grading and there's just all of this record keeping that has to be done and a lot of folks get really overwhelmed. This is a great time for us to be able to come in and model what that can look like, how to streamline those efforts, how data does not have to be super formal all the time. We can take some data in some informal ways, for sure, and still make it work for us. But bottom line is, we need some data and documentation so that we can have a direction. We don't know where we're going if we don't know where we started.

Steph Johnson: 12:20

So those are the four things that I ask for when I'm dealing with specific behavior concerns what are the Tier 1 procedures? Where is your visual schedule or what are your routines, what's your incentive structure and where is your behavior documentation so far, that gets the ball rolling. That gives me enough, then, to try to develop an understanding of the dynamics in that classroom and what might be causing the level of dysregulation that's requiring the school counselor to come in and intervene. We were talking about this in our mastermind group and one of our members said you know, that's all great, but it would be really hard to have this conversation with some of my teachers. I really feel like they would push back or they would feel like I was accusing them of things, and I just don't know that that would go well. So how are you able to have these candid conversations with your staff in a way that doesn't leave them feeling ticked off, that doesn't leave them feeling like you're trying to catch them in something or like someone's angry at them? And I thought that was a great question.

Steph Johnson: 13:34

I will preface it by saying I think this is a skill that is developed throughout your career. I think it's something that we have to be very intentional about and very mindful in the way that we're approaching these conversations. And first, I think it all boils down with your relationship with your staff. What kinds of relationships have you built so far? Do they understand you and how you work? My staff knows I'm a straight shooter, but they also know that I understand their challenges and I understand the hurdles in being in the classroom day in and day out. That's because when I'm talking with them, I'm relaying my own experiences, I'm addressing theirs with empathy and I'm trying to be real and very non-judgmental, and I feel like that shines through. I feel like that's why so many of the difficult conversations that I have to have on my campus are successful. But I think that's first. I think relationship definitely is first. We kind of dance this line between wanting to be constructive and collaborative and coming across as you should do this or why haven't you done this. It's a delicate dance to be part of, and so we've got to be really mindful how we're approaching these conversations.

Steph Johnson: 15:00

First, I think, starting with some sentence stems such as I've noticed, or I've been wondering, and opening the conversation in a very non-judgmental way, I've noticed there are lots of behavior calls to this hallway after lunch. Why do you think that is? I'm wondering why Bobby always seems to have difficulty right after they come back from recess. I'm wondering why the behavior seemed to go away and then came back. Those kinds of questions where you can give them the authority to speak as the authority on their classroom. Sometimes they will think of things or tell you things that you never even imagined. They'll kind of blow your mind in that way, and that's the best thing, because you want all of the information straight from the horse's mouth right, straight from the expert on that classroom, which is that teacher. So starting those conversations in a non-judgmental way is going to be the first step.

Steph Johnson: 16:07

Second, I think if we have some ideas to offer or some approaches to suggest, I think sometimes framing them as have you tried this? Have you thought about that? Those kinds of things where it's not well, you should do this or you should do that, or research tells us that the best way to do this is XYZ. Those are going to feel very confrontational, they're going to feel very judgmental and the human brain does not like to admit that it is wrong. So those folks are going to tune you out as soon as you get started. Better to approach the situation with a question have you thought about this? Have you considered trying that? And keep the door open for them to listen and to have a conversation with you about it.

Steph Johnson: 17:01

Third, I think approaching it in a very solution focused manner might be extremely helpful. I love to ask what's worked so far? What have you tried that's worked for this student so far? What do they really seem to respond to? Can you think about one of the best days you've had with this student? What was different? Those kinds of questions, solution-focused questioning gets them out of the blame game mindset, out of their frustration, out of their annoyance with this student, and really calls them to consider the solution-focused aspects of the situation, how they've been able to intervene so far, what's worked they might want to try more of in the future. But maybe they just forgot about it or didn't realize that that was related to the behavior. It's super important. So having those conversations in a constructive way I've noticed I'm wondering have you tried what's worked so far?

Steph Johnson: 18:10

Those kinds of questions is the first step in having these productive and non-judgmental conversations. Second, I think building your fluency is going to help a ton, because you're going to be able to speak to these situations with more authority. You're not going to feel flustered and panicked yourself, right? Some of us avoid the conversations completely because we're like what? I don't know what to say. What if they say something and I'm just staring at them? I don't know what to say? They ask me for a suggestion and I don't know what to offer. That's terrifying. I remember being there. I get it. We've got to build our fluency so that we know what our next steps might be, so that we can offer some suggestions. Have you thought about this and see where the conversation goes? If it goes in a different direction, we'll have the dexterity where we can pivot and follow that conversation wherever it leads and not have to feel nervous about it.

Steph Johnson: 19:12

When we feel nervous, we often come across differently and sometimes that's read as being confrontational. We don't want to go that direction. We want to be very, very open and very genuine and curious with our teachers. As we build that fluency to, we develop confidence, we develop the ability to walk into those conversations and not give off those signals of I'm unsure, I'm not quite there yet, I don't really know because, intentional or not, we can give those nonverbal signals right. Sometimes we even give verbal signals about I'm not well versed in this, I don't feel confident in this, I'm not sure I'm asking you the right questions.

Steph Johnson: 19:59

So I'll give you a spoiler, which is I don't think we ever 100% feel confident in these conversations. If we did, that's just a cue to us that we need to learn and grow and experience more, because we should never feel like we have all the answers Right. There's a certain amount of humility that's called for, especially in these situations, and we want to be mindful of that. But at the same time we do want a fair amount of confidence in what we're talking about, so that if a staff member or a teacher is open to our suggestions, we have some to provide. So those are my suggestions for having productive conversations, starting with openness.

Steph Johnson: 20:45

I've noticed, I'm wondering have you tried building fluency so that we're able to speak to the situation at hand and, through that fluency, building our confidence so that we can stand confidently in the conversation? We're not undermining ourselves with our own nonverbal cues about I'm not sure about this, I'm not sure this is the right thing, and then we undermine our own authority in the situation. So anyway, that's just kind of a little brain dump of the things we've been talking about in our mastermind this past week and also a little bit in our School for School Counselors Facebook group. If you're not a member of both of those, you need to jump in them now because I'm telling you there are amazing things happening in both places, in our mastermind in particular. That's where we're having these in-depth conversations. We're tossing the ball back and forth, thinking about different ways things can go, how we can handle them in our own unique situations on our campuses and how we can really ask these targeted and intentional questions to become better practitioners of our craft. If you're interested in having an experience like that, please join us in our mastermind, schoolforschoolcounselorscom. Slash mastermind will give you all the details, and we would love nothing more than to welcome you into the fold of others who love to geek out about this stuff every Tuesday evening at 8 Eastern.

Steph Johnson: 22:15

All right, thanks for bearing with me. I've got a little bit of a stuffy nose this week. I hope that didn't come across too badly as I recorded this episode for you, but I really felt that this was an important conversation to have, the four things that I ask classroom teachers for when I'm called for behavior, intervention and how to have these constructive, productive and non-judgmental conversations about what's going on in the classroom. If you have any thoughts or insights for me, I would love to hear them. Feel free to email me hello at schoolforschoolcounselorscom or, better yet, leave us a review on Apple podcasts.

Steph Johnson: 22:54

If you've been enjoying this podcast, we would love to hear your thoughts and feedback. Y'all, that's the currency that keeps the algorithm running. That's how Apple knows that you're enjoying the podcast and that they should probably start showing it to other school counselors. So if you have a moment, leave us a quick review. It would mean so much to us. Give us those stars and then type out your thoughts just really quickly. It doesn't have to be a lot, but it will mean the world to us and to whoever else it helps to discover the School for School Counselors podcast. I'll be back soon with another episode. In the meantime, I hope you have the best, most constructive week ever. Take care.