Develop Yourself
To change careers and land your first job as a Software Engineer, you need more than just great software development skills - you need to develop yourself.
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Develop Yourself
#242 - How Anne Got a Developer Job WITHOUT LinkedIn or LeetCode
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What happens when a music educator with performance anxiety decides to become a software developer?
Anne discovered coding through The Odin Project and immediately recognized a familiar pattern-based thinking from her music background. "I fell in love with the process of coding, the community of developers," she explains.
Despite being an introvert with social anxiety, she forced herself to attend meetups and hackathons—each experience confirming she was on the right path.
Her job search defied conventional wisdom. No endless LinkedIn networking or algorithm grinding. Instead, a casual conversation with a friend led to her current role as a front-end developer.
Want to follow in Anne's footsteps? Check out our Dev 30 program for structured JavaScript learning and community support. Visit dev30.xyz to save your spot and begin your own coding journey.
You can connect with Anne here: Anne's LinkedIn
Shameless Plugs
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💼 Zubin's LinkedIn (ex-lawyer, former Google, Brian-look-a-like)
👂🏻Easier Said Than Done Podcast
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Welcome to the Develop Yourself podcast, where we teach you everything you need to land your first job as a software developer by learning to develop yourself, your skills, your network and more. I'm Brian, your host. Hey, in honor of Memorial Day, I'm offering 50% off Dev 30. Dev 30 is 30 days of learning JavaScript, how to build in public and creating a coding schedule you can actually stick to. This, in my opinion, is the best way to learn JavaScript if you're still struggling or stuck, and it's only 49 bucks. We've been doing this program for years now and have had hundreds of people go through it. To me, it's a no-brainer. You work directly with me, as well as Laura, our Director of Engineering. You get access to our Slack group and all the material to actually learn how to set up Git, make a coding schedule you can stick to, as well as the basics of JavaScript and beyond. Head to dev30.xyz to check out the program and save your spot.
Speaker 1:Anyway, in this episode, I'm going to speak with Anne Leinberger, a former music educator turned front-end developer, about her unorthodox journey into tech. We're going to dive into what it's like switching careers, why learning to code is more mindset than JavaScript, and how she landed a developer job without grinding leet code or really using LinkedIn at all. I hope you enjoy this episode and enjoy your Memorial Day. See you Today on the Develop Yourself podcast.
Speaker 1:I have a very special guest, anne Leinbarger. She's going to talk about her transition from education into software. She's a former student at Parsity and she got hired recently and we want to talk all about the messy process that goes into getting hired, how it's not really this like manicured path, like it used to be, and she's taken a very interesting way to do it, like you've done it in a fairly unique way, I think, and I think it's worth diving into. But before you start on that, can you just kind of quickly share your path to tech, like what made you go from educator to thinking? You know what? I want to go to Parsity and enroll in this course and learn to code and then get myself a different career.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. First of all, thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here.
Speaker 2:And so my background is in music and I teach at a community college. I teach music and I also perform. But I got really burned out and was just taking a hard look at my career long term and the opportunities in higher education and the competition in that industry just didn't feel worth it. Competition in that industry just didn't feel worth it. It didn't feel worth it to go back and get a doctorate. My heart wasn't in it anymore and a doctorate is something that you should really only do if you want to do that. And I just I had kind of lost the spark for it and I tried out a bunch of different hats, was exploring a bunch of different paths and stumbled across the Odin project online.
Speaker 1:Ah, the famous Odin project, I know yes.
Speaker 2:And I just fell in love. I fell in love with the process of coding, the community of developers. I started going to meetups, I did a hackathon and each step that I took forward felt very affirming of I'm in the right place, I'm doing the right thing. These feel like my people and after about a year of doing that, I was like like I'm ready for the next push forward. And I had been listening to this podcast and I love the advice that you share and the honesty of how thank you absolutely.
Speaker 2:It's a complicated process and I think telling people that it's just going to be step one, step two, get a job 100, 100k, you know yeah it's. It's not that it's. Everyone has a different process. It's messy and complex, just like life, and so, about a year ago ish, I started parsity, and that's just been a continuation of the learning, the challenging throw yourself at something that scares you and see what comes of it and that process has got me to where I am.
Speaker 1:That's, that is awesome. And where are you working now, like, what are you doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm a front end developer at a music nonprofit called the Boulanger Initiative. A music nonprofit called the Boulanger Initiative. It seeks to promote the works of women composers. So this is directly related to stuff that I was doing back in my academic days. I did an independent study on underrepresented composers. So this, weirdly, is like the perfect in-between of my old life as a musician and academic and my new life as a developer. So it's been really cool.
Speaker 1:Super cool and it's. It's interesting, isn't it? Like that's not the job that you would normally think of, when, when people think software developer, they think like Google or Apple and they forget like every company is basically a software company that has a website, some sort of web properties, maybe, even, maybe even more than that, and they need people that know how to write code to do it. What a cool story, and I know more than a few people. We were just talking about this before we hit record about the odd what's it called? The odd pipelines from musician to software developer. Just briefly, what is your take on that? I'm not a musician, but why do you think does it activate the same parts of your brain? Do you feel like it's helped you to learn how to code, knowing how to read and write music, or read and play music?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think there are a couple of things. I think both code and music are very pattern-based. This is something that comes up a lot in that discussion, and I think it's also a similar personality type. It's people who get really obsessive about quality and can spend hours and hours on end in a room either with their instrument or with their computer, honing their craft, trying things out, working on making it better, and the process feels very similar.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. This is what Zubin's told me, and before I get too much off a tangent because I really want to talk about your job search mostly that I think it also must set the right expectations, because when you're trying to learn a skill like music, most adults haven't really learned much right Like after school. We just kind of stop at 18 or 22 and you graduate from college. That might be the last time somebody's actually done any formal education, but if you're playing music or you're actively acquiring a skill, you kind of understand it's a bit of a messy process and you're like okay, it's going to take a lot of dedication, time, I'm going to suck, and then I get a little better, and then I'm going to suck some more and then I'm going to realize how much I don't know, and then it's. You go through the whole process and I have to imagine it must be the same thing with music. That might give you that expectation when you learn how to code absolutely, and it's sort of that.
Speaker 2:you go up in levels and at each new level you realize that you're have a new level to get to, and so even people who are professional tenured symphony musicians are still analyzing their own playing, thinking about how to get better. What's the next challenge? For me, because that's what's exciting about it, that's why we all pursued it in the first place is because it was this huge mountain to overcome and you want to keep climbing. Yeah, there's no end. That's the cool thing. There's no end.
Speaker 1:that's the cool thing, there's no end to it. Like, yeah, you're right, with music or coding, like I've been doing it for about 11 years now and I've and in many ways I feel like I'm really at the beginning in some ways, like I feel like man, what's gonna be like? Where am I gonna be in 20 years? Because then I have that horrible habit of looking at other people and thinking, oh man, that person has 20 years experience. I wonder what they know that I don't know yet. A quarter century, or somebody's work you know, cutting for 40 years. Like, wow, where am I going to be at that stage? And what do I not know that I want to know? That's a very cool like perspective to have. And now let's get to the thing that everybody wants to know about. Everybody wants to know this secret and tell us the secret.
Speaker 2:How did you, how did you, get hired?
Speaker 2:I don have all of the answers and I I don't think there is a secret, but I will tell you what happened for me okay so I was genuinely just catching up with a friend who used to work at this company that I work at now and we were talking about my dev. Stuff sort of came up and she was like, oh, I heard about this job. You know, would you be interested? And I looked at it and it was react and you know stuff that I felt pretty familiar with and I just said, okay, let's do this.
Speaker 2:I was at a point, sweet, in my journey where I wasn't looking for jobs, I wasn't thinking about applying for things, I didn't have a resume, I very much still thought of myself as a student. But that was kind of a switch moment for me of oh, I can do this, and so I just sent my materials in. They called me in for an interview. We got along really well. There were two more rounds that got increasingly more difficult and I had to put in the work to feel confident walking into those and making sure that I knew what I was saying and that I was saying technically accurate things and they liked me enough that I got the job.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. That was so cool. I remember working with you a little bit on the interview process. I remember you DMed me and we were kind of going over some scenarios and things to prepare for. What was your interview like For people? Listening to this many people, they tend to think that it's going to be like all algorithm data structures. Listening to this many people, they tend to think that it's going to be like all algorithm data structures and I don't want to say that's not the case because it is for some people, but the overwhelming majority of people have interviews that I believe are going to be more like yours. So can you tell us a little bit about what your interview process was like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there were three interviews. The first one was just sort of a typical tell us about you culture fit with the company. The next one was with the previous developer and it was more just sort of general talking about my experience, seeing if I knew how things worked, could speak intelligently about how to make an API call, things like that.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And then the third one was the most technical, and essentially what it was was they sent us their code base, so we got access to their code and were asked to explain it back to them, and then I like that uh, the second bit of it was they had an idea for a feature and they asked how we would implement it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that was it.
Speaker 1:It's a pretty standard interview process. Honestly, yours is a little bit shorter than many of the ones that I've done. I've done up to six rounds of interviews lately for companies I've been going for. I've heard this story from other people too. Three rounds is respectable. That's a nice, respectable amount of interviews right there. And so would you have known this job existed at all? Like if you hadn't brought it up to your friend like was this? Like on LinkedIn? Was there like 500 applicants for this thing or what?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't know about it at all and I think she had heard about it because she was in the company and they had sent out a message like we're looking for people. And when we were talking, that was actually the position had been open for a little bit and that week was the week that they were closing it and going to start the process oh, okay and so it was very last minute. I sent in everything right right at the, at the finish line, nice so that's the funny thing.
Speaker 1:It's like as much as it's really really difficult to get hired, like I. I'm in the bay area and I'm actively, you know, trying to find senior software engineers. The last three companies where I work we're trying to find senior people to work and we couldn't find any. The the last place that I was at, we spent over three months looking for candidates, almost none past the interview or none past the interview. And at the current company I'm at same thing and I know it's different for more early career roles, like more junior entry level roles, but at the same time, most companies don't know how to find people.
Speaker 1:So it's this really weird mismatch of expectations and like it's a strange game we're playing where companies on one hand, don't know how to find candidates and then candidates don't know how to link up to these companies. And what you did, I think, is more representative of what's happening and probably going to happen going forward. Linkedin to me seems pretty broken as far as the hiring side of things goes now, like more broken than it used to be, in my opinion. And you are on LinkedIn and I saw you know you're you're not super active on LinkedIn, right? Like you didn't play the LinkedIn game, did you?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Is that on purpose or is that just because, like just kind of naturally you were, you were waiting to do it or something like that? You just never now, you don't need to.
Speaker 2:Well, I was having some fun making little videos. That was more just for me and my enjoyment, and people were reaching out to me like former educators who had transitioned into software, who were just having fun conversations about the way that I was presenting code. So that was more just fun and a way to build community, which is, I think, a fun way to use that platform. Yeah, I think a fun way to use that platform. Yeah, but once I was sort of in the process for this job, it didn't feel like the most important place to be putting my energy.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, totally, I agree with you. It's weird because I'm like I feel like I'm Mr LinkedIn, you know, within Parsity at least. I'm always like encouraging LinkedIn usage Cause I know it works, I know it's like the safest route to go. But I'll be honest, I look at the developers I've worked with over the years and most of them have like LinkedIn's with like a hundred connections and they tend to be pretty well employed. I think the game is different if you're coming in from an outside.
Speaker 1:But I'm beginning to rethink how I'm thinking about LinkedIn, for sure, because I'm basically finding all my jobs off LinkedIn. I'm either going through referrals you know I'm in a pretty lucky position where people can find me through my articles do LinkedIn through other things. I mean, I have a pretty big social media presence. But if I was starting off now, or I was talking to my son who's like 19, wanted to get into tech, I would say you know, go to LinkedIn, but maybe don't like put all your eggs in that basket, because I really do believe that there's a whole subset of jobs outside of LinkedIn that aren't going to be on there and the only way to really get to them is looking at your like actual people. You know which is harder. Actually, it's tough to reach out to people. You got sort of lucky in quotes here that you had somebody approach you or you just found out about a job, but I feel like that's actually kind of a common story, like much more common than I would think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And I got another interview a similar way. Wow, I went to an event, a code retreat just because it sounded fun, and the person running the event was like, hey, are you looking for work? Their company was looking for, uh, interns, and so I got to go through like a more technical interview process with them too. Didn't get the job, but learned a ton in the process. So going out into the world and talking seems to be useful and is also just good for us as humans.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like 100%. I also want to be in this career because I like the people and I want to be in the community.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad you said that yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, building my community is also an important part of building the life and the career that I want.
Speaker 1:That's a really great take. I like that, and I don't hear enough of that kind of thing. I sometimes speak to people on the phone that are interested in Parsity and I'll usually ask the same kind of questions Like, oh, what led you to want to code? And sometimes people will say I don't like people and I'm like I don't like people and I'm like good luck.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, right, like good luck, because the developer community is vitriolic as it can be. It's also exceptionally welcoming, like you can meet people from like all sorts of levels that are just willing to reach out and talk to you because they just like this stuff, and you can go to meetups, like you're doing, and meet people. I was in San Francisco yesterday and I met a tech influencer randomly in a workspace and I'm like dude, I follow you. He's like, oh, yeah, man, hey, good to see you. Then he had DM'd me on Instagram. It was mind blowing to me, but it reminded me about how welcoming it can be in this space. It reminds me where are you located, because you're not located in a major tech hub.
Speaker 2:I'm in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Speaker 1:That's okay. That's kind of a tech hub actually, so you have a lot of opportunities to do in-person things there. But I think Austin, seattle, san Francisco but there's more places than just that now. Charlotte's an emerging tech hub for sure. I've worked with a ton of people out there. There's a lot of opportunity out there. It sounds like that's really cool that you're doing that. Where do you see this going in the future? I know you just kind of started, but what do you see is next in this beginning stage of your career?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great question. The next thing I want is to be on a real tech team. Right now, the company that I'm at I'm the only technical person, so there's a lot of learning opportunities that I feel like I'm not getting yet. Code reviews, being around more senior engineers that's sort of like. The next step that I want is to be around the people with the experience and the knowledge and the wisdom so that I can absorb and learn, get all of that challenge, yeah, present and share and write and do all of those things. But for now, it's about building knowledge and skills so that I feel confident in what I would be presenting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, totally. I think that's that makes a lot of sense. Like I think we all start in that kind of place. I mean some people are very lucky and get on a really, you know, solid tech team or something at first and they just kind of learn from there. But often we have to make like pivots and go places like sometimes I'll move for money, which, just being honest, like I'll move companies for money. That is usually the biggest motivating factor.
Speaker 1:But after I did that a couple of times I realized actually the smarter thing to do was to go for learning, because that would then ladder up to making more money in the long term anyway. So I've kind of made that a conscious move in my career. Is like going places where I know I'm going to learn a lot and it's been cool. I mean I've learned from really good people. You're lucky you're in an area like that where you can meet a lot of people even outside of work to do this kind of things. So it sounds like I'm sure people hear this sounds like all roses and candy canes, like oh wow, is it candy canes? Like oh wow, you did this. How much you do with all the self-doubt and, like you know, just feeling like geez, is this gonna happen? Am I good enough? Because those, those thoughts, must have been in your head too right absolutely.
Speaker 2:If you would have told me five years ago that I'd be working in software, I'd look at you like you were absolutely insane. I never felt confident around computers. I remember my first time working in the command line. I was like I'm going to break it, I'm going to everything's going to blow up.
Speaker 1:Oh, I feel you yeah.
Speaker 2:And it has been a process of accepting that I'm scared and this is something that I've learned as a musician, too, and something that I teach my students that fear, even though it feels real in your body, it's not a real threat, it's not a real bear running at you, right yeah you're just scared that you're gonna like look silly.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Which, if you look silly, oh well, we've all looked silly at some point. And every time those feelings would come up, I have enough of a track record with myself of falling on my face, often publicly, right as a performer Sometimes you, you just you just fall on your face and you got to get back up that is I that's.
Speaker 1:It resonates with me a ton, because we all know that feeling. It's like our neanderthal brain, right, like rejection, you know, being excluded from the herd, which would have meant death, you know, thousand years ago or ever back in history. Um, and now we have that same, that same response where it feels like, oh my god, my life is coming to an end and you try to avoid this rejection however, however possible. Get in your mind. And so what would you tell people that are feeling like this? Because this is the number one issue with most people learning to code. It's not technical, it's not like the JavaScript you're going to learn. That's certainly part of it. But, like, the bigger issue to me is the mindset. I hate even saying mindset. It sounds so like fluffy, but it's true. It's like there's a, there's a massive piece of this that requires about growth mindset versus fixed mindset. So if you are the kind of person that likes a book, that's a good book. That goes over right.
Speaker 2:Essentially, the premise is growth mindset is I can get better or I can improve, and fixed mindset is I am this, I am whatever I am right now yeah and neither of them are permanent. It's something that we're all sort of fluctuating between all the time, and so what you have to do is become aware of your own self-talk and be able to say like oh, oh, that's not true, that's just the voice in my head that's telling me that I can't do this, or that's just my amygdala right.
Speaker 2:Whatever works for you, you can give it a name. I had a very annoying voice in my head and I named it Brenda. Sorry to all the Brendas out there, but anytime I was being really hard on myself, I'd just be like shut up, brenda, like no one wants to hear that.
Speaker 1:Why would you say that, Brenda yeah?
Speaker 2:But then it would go away because I would recognize that that's not real. That voice in your head does not have to be the truth.
Speaker 1:I've dealt with that myself. I think many of us deal with that like really negative self-talk and you know and I had to I learned through not only reading like, but I was one of those people that thought, well, this is like the like, my, this is my inner being. Speak to me instead of this shattering monkey, that's this kind of always on and and through reading about meditation actually, and in practicing that, which I never thought I'd be doing in my life, honestly, it helped me to understand. Okay, so this voice that's constantly on in my head is ultimately under my control, and it's also not like the, it's not like my inner being, right. It's not like the voice of like God or something in my head which I think a lot of us think. It is like. This is what I really think and you're right, like we put a lot of barriers around ourself before the world really ever does it's. It's.
Speaker 1:It's kind of sad, because I definitely fell into this too. I thought, okay, I'm too old, you know, I don't didn't grow up with computers, I'm an outsider, no one's going to take me seriously. I, I just thought all these silly scenarios, right, and now I have the benefit of time and experience and have some wins on my belt that I can look back and say, okay, that's silly, but when you're in it it really can be really, really difficult. That's a great book. I'm actually going to put that in the show notes so if you want to check it out, because I think that's super important, you can learn to code dang near anywhere. I mean, that's something you can learn. It's really hard to like. Keep yourself on track and and actually stay the course and do the thing. I love your advice. You definitely got to write a lot more.
Speaker 2:I want to hear, I want to read more of what you're writing out there. I want to write more. I'm I'm starting to feel the like.
Speaker 1:Creative energy yeah, come up, yeah, so now that you're like over the hump, that like getting the job, that that major, major hump Before I let you go I got to ask you some, some, some hot takes. But we're going to some hot takes. What's your advice for someone like you, coming from maybe a non technical career, who wants to break into tech?
Speaker 2:Run towards the things that scare you or excite you, like that I that scare you or excite you, like that I. I know I'm talking here and I sound like I'm confident, but I'm an introvert. I've struggled with social anxiety for a long time. Going to meetups was terrifying, but I have gained so much from that experience that it was absolutely worth it to do the thing that scared me and I feel so much better going than sitting at home and being worried about.
Speaker 1:Wondering what if?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so find those opportunities. If there's a hackathon, do it. If there's a person that seems interesting, talk to them, run towards it.
Speaker 1:That's really good, jeez. You got some knowledge they definitely won't get in college for sure. What was your worst fear? Because everybody had some scenario in their head. Mine was getting laughed at. What was your worst fear about going to a meetup?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good question. Feeling Ooh Ooh. You got me Feeling I didn't belong, but I've been very fortunate to find spaces that are incredibly welcoming, and if the space isn't welcoming, I don't have to return.
Speaker 1:You don't have to stay either. You can walk right out.
Speaker 2:But my experience with developers is they want to share their knowledge. They are excited when people walk in the room and are excited. So if you're scared of going and talking to people because you don't feel like you're a developer, you don't feel like you're going to fit in or you're going to look silly, none of that matters. If you want to go hang out with other nerds, go hang out with the other nerds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's amazing what we have. We have more in common than we don't.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely, and I learn from them.
Speaker 1:Every single time I go, I learn something new people and we can nerd out on all sorts of stuff and people want to talk about this because, like, I have a partner, right, you have, you have a fiance right, can you? Can you talk to them about you know, your, they don't care. Because the last thing they want to, like, I don't know what you're talking about, I don't care, you squish this bug after. Okay, that's cool, right, but you can talk to the developer and they're going to immediately understand, like, what you're talking about. They're going to understand your frustrations, like learning, like typescript or react, whatever it's. Oh yeah, I hate that too. Or you can commiserate together. You have this bond immediately. They just understand a little bit more than the average person that doesn't code. So that's yeah, it's a great point. Like developers are a nice bunch, despite what you might read on twitter, you know well, and there's, there's always people that are gonna oh, oh yeah, for sure, in any group there's some girls out there.
Speaker 2:But overall my experience is that people really they want to connect, they want to have a good time, they want to help.
Speaker 1:Maybe don't go to a Stack Overflow meetup or something like that. Yeah, I probably would steer clear of that one, but other ones are probably safe to go to. All right, before I let you get out of here what are some hot takes, I have three questions. I want to get your take on Overrated advice you heard during your job search Ooh.
Speaker 2:The focus on super technical interview prep. I know that that happens at bigger tech companies, but both of the interview processes that I went through seemed much more focused on how you think and your ability to communicate. So the more energy you spend practicing talking, that seems to be a more important not that it's not important to know about data structures and algorithms, but absolutely. They didn't come up for me at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I I people hate when I say it then like well, I mean like again, I don't want to say I don't study stuff or don't learn. It's like, yeah, learn all sorts of stuff, but like goal is to get a job in interview you probably don't want to mash 500 leak code problems, um, and then, and speaking into a camera is probably one of the best pieces of practice you can do, one of the best practical things you can do to actually get prepared for that really really good one. Yeah, what is the most unexpected skill from your old career that's helped you in tech?
Speaker 2:I think communicating and performing performing interesting so but I can see why as a teacher, you sort of you're getting up and curating an experience for people and in an interview you have a short amount of time to make a big impression yes and so it kind of is a performance, if you want to think about it like that.
Speaker 1:You're right yeah.
Speaker 2:That can. That helps me at least to separate myself from the process to say I'm presenting this version of myself that is capable of doing this job and is a professional in this space. That's been a helpful tool for me to have in that process. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Oh, totally, because I just think like a light bulb went off. I think about my interviews and I always treat them like that. I treat them essentially like I don't care. I care what the person is, but I'm going to talk to them as if I'm teaching them, even if it's very apparent that they know more than me, because the whole goal is like I'm trying to show how I communicate, so I can't take into account, like your background or anything. I'm basically put show, quote, unquote for anybody that might be in the room. That's the way I generally approach them. I act as if I'm teaching somebody something when I'm going, when I'm walking through code. That's the way I, my mental kind of state, when I do.
Speaker 2:It sounds like the same for you yeah, I think that's a really helpful framework to use, because if you can teach something, you actually understand it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and and that's why over the years, I mean I don't do this as much, but I, I have probably over 100 videos of me practicing talking through like data structures and algorithms when I was going for google interview and I'm like, okay, I need to really know how to speak this out loud because I failed it like twice. So I'm like I, I knew why and doing the videos is really really helpful for me to get further, at least in the other and help me out throughout my interview career. Now I mean I do too many interviews. If I'm being honest, I interview way too often, partly for content and partly because I'm a little paranoid and I always want to be prepared just in case something happens. I'm a little antsy like that. All right, last hot take If you could put a Post-it note on every new coder's laptop, what would it say On?
Speaker 2:every new coder's laptop. What would it say? Is it basic? If it's RTFM?
Speaker 1:For those of you who don't know, rtfn, it means read the effing manual. That might be some underrated old school advice. I had a buddy tell me that 11 plus years ago. He's like RTFM dude. I'm like what does that mean? He said read the effing manual. I'm like, oh, there you go. My bad, I love it and thank you so much for for being here, keeping it real, being vulnerable and just like giving us and everybody listed as like, some practical, real deal knowledge they can apply.
Speaker 2:I really appreciate it absolutely thanks for having for having me. This was fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this was a ton of fun. I think I need to get you back or you might need to do your own. You got too much wisdom. You might need to just do your own thing and have me as a guest on.
Speaker 2:I think that's where we're going with. This Sounds great, let's do it.
Speaker 1:I like it Cool, see ya.
Speaker 2:All right, see ya.
Speaker 1:That'll do it for episode of the Develop Yourself podcast. If you're serious about switching careers and becoming a software developer and building complex software and want to work directly with me and my team, go to parsityio, and if you want more information, feel free to schedule a chat by just clicking the link in the show notes. See you next week.
