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Develop Yourself
To change careers and land your first job as a Software Engineer, you need more than just great software development skills - you need to develop yourself.
Welcome to the podcast that helps you develop your skills, your habits, your network and more, all in hopes of becoming a thriving Software Engineer.
Develop Yourself
#246 - Coding Bootcamps, Burnout, and the Hard Truth About Breaking Into Tech: An Engineering Manager's Perspective
Send a text and I may answer it on next episode (I cannot reply from this service 😢)
What do engineering leaders really think about bootcamp grads?
Why are so many developers so stressed?
Is it even worth learning to code in 2025?
Michael Greenspan pulls back the curtain on the realities of engineering leadership, interviewing and the state of the industry, drawing from his extensive experience as both a software engineer and engineering manager before becoming a coach for burnt-out tech professionals.
"Moving into management is a job change," Michael emphasizes, describing how this transition often comes with minimal guidance and significant imposter syndrome. Both Michael and host Brian share their personal experiences of feeling lost when first stepping into leadership positions.
Find Michael at TheCompleteEngineer.com or connect with him on LinkedIn.
Shameless Plugs
🧠 (NEW) Parsity's The Inner Circle Program - a highly customized roadmap to take you from 0 to hired. For career changers who want to pivot into software.
💼 Zubin's LinkedIn (ex-lawyer, former Google, Brian-look-a-like)
👂🏻Easier Said Than Done Podcast
Already a developer? Check out 👉 Not Another Course
Serious about joining Parsity? Schedule a call with me ☎️
Welcome to the Develop Yourself podcast, where we teach you everything you need to land your first job as a software developer by learning to develop yourself, your skills, your network and more. I'm Brian, your host Today on the Develop Yourself podcast. I have Michael Greenspan, an engineering leader, also a software engineering coach. He helps coach ambitious software engineers who might be feeling overwhelmed, stuck empty, helping them take meaningful action and feeling fulfilled. Welcome to the show, michael. Pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:Oh man, yeah, you are an engineering leader with quite a history and one of the things I'm most interested to talk to you about today is the life of an engineering manager and some of the things that maybe your engineering manager can't tell, you hasn't told, you won't tell you. Basically, give people a little peek behind the curtain of what it's like to be an engineering leader, and also talk about things like burnout, because this is a topic in our industry that we don't talk about enough and the reality is it's a pretty stressful job, right, and you were recently an engineering manager and then you switched into this career. Can you tell me a little bit about what led you from you know a pretty nice career in engineering leadership to saying you know what I'm going to now coach other software engineers and help them out with burnout.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I was an engineer for seven years and then I pivoted into management. There's definitely a large difference between engineering and management and I had no idea. And that's the classic thing that everyone says, and I will repeat it Moving into management is a job change. So after those seven years, I pivoted into management and I was a manager for nine years. So how did I get into coaching? So throughout that experience, I had major imposter syndrome and I felt like I had no idea what I was doing, cause I mean, I didn't have anything, any idea what I was doing according to what my managers wanted me to do, cause they didn't really know what they wanted me to do either.
Speaker 2:So I set up for an impossible task, but it was eating away at me and I reached out to a mentor of mine and he referred me to a coach. I'm like, oh, coaching, that's cool, let me try it out. And that relationship really helped me get out of my rut and define my own values and figure out how to like cut out the noise of all the judgment that was really not fair and unreasonable from my own managers and realize, hey, I'm doing well according to what's actually important to me, and I was able to then just propel forward and continue doing what I knew was right for the business, what I knew was right according to my own sense of success and necessity. And then I found myself at a company this is my last role where I was an engineering manager and I was doing great. I mean, I enjoyed it, I was adding a lot of value and I was there for a year and eight months or so and around that time I'm like you know what I love coaching.
Speaker 2:This is one of the things that I've been doing with people on my team for the past few years and I find so much meaning out of it, and I seem to have a knack for it. People are suffering out there. Let's just be honest Engineers who have jobs are stressed. Engineers who don't have jobs are stressed. People who want to be engineers and are trying to become engineers are stressed. And I've developed this whole tool set of life tools that I want to share with people.
Speaker 1:Michael, I feel like we've been living like the same engineering manager life. I got laid off from engineering manager position and I thought I was going to go further down that road. I didn't go as far as you did, and then I found that the next engineering manager role was like basically like a glorified senior software engineer, but with the added benefit of managing people.
Speaker 2:So I'm like, oh sweet.
Speaker 1:So I get to do all that and then you're right, it's a big career change. That's the thing that I read about, and I also got a mentor when I became an engineering manager, because I felt so lost. I felt like I don't even know what I'm supposed to do. Like, am I supposed to code every day? Am I supposed to just look at PRs or whatever? It was a big black box to me. It was no joke when people said this is not a promotion, this is a complete career change, and that is more true than I ever would have thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one thing that I think has changed since the olden days, when I was promoted and moved into management, is I think there are other career paths that people can take now that are also promotions or that are actually promotions. Now there's a staff engineer, principal engineer technical director lead yeah. There's a lot more options for people. I don't think you need to become a manager anymore. Back when I became a manager like there was no massive awareness of what other companies were doing. It was much more of a black box.
Speaker 1:I definitely want to get your perspective and, just kind of you, let me know how this really goes down, because too often online we read about interviews or hiring promotions, firing stuff from people that have never done it. I was on Reddit recently and I was talking about hiring people and I said that I didn't care about CS degrees because I honestly didn't. I hired a bunch of people at Clorox at one point. We didn't care, it was just part of the company policy. And somebody said obviously you've never hired anybody in your life. And I'm like, well, I mean, there we go. And I'm like this is the problem with Reddit or LinkedIn. Your experience is your experience, mine is mine. We're all going to do things a little differently, but the idea that there's one like golden rule, or that somehow as a manager, you're handed a rule book it's like here's how you manage software engineering teams it's like there's less instruction on that than there is it being a software engineer for sure, yeah.
Speaker 1:But I want to know for you when it came down to hiring, which is, of course, the number one thing people want to know about. What was your hiring process? What were some things that you think people should know about hiring that they probably don't know from reading too much social media?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I will say that hiring is a team sport. That's the first thing. When I was working at that company as a director, I was actually fortunate enough that the company had hired a HR firm for like two months. It was just like a HR as a service type of thing. They came in and just did a few hours of work and they helped build out a hiring process with me and if it wasn't for them I would have probably hired all the wrong people and would not have gone well, but they helped give a little bit of structure.
Speaker 2:Just like you typically not check in code without having a PR, you're not bringing people to the next level in the process without getting feedback from someone else. You have biases, you have moods, you have your certain vision of what you think this position should be like and you need someone to hold you to account for that and to keep you balanced and fair. But it's not only about fairness, it's about effectiveness, because our judgment can be so swayed by biases and just by certain energies that are intangible. That's a team sport 100%.
Speaker 1:Have you ever gone to an interview and they didn't ask you anything technical and it was just purely vibes and you get the offer. Have you ever had that experience? I got hired as like a kind of a fancy position at a company I will not name. It was a single interview, just kind of telling me about the job. It was like half an hour and then they just said you're hired. I'm like this is dangerous, right, because I'm like so how do you?
Speaker 2:hire other people. No, it's a perfect point that we can bring out from this is that don't wing it. A, because it's not fair, but B, because you're not going to do a great job at actually vetting the right people if you don't even know what you're looking for in that position, or if you know what you're looking for in that person. Actually, you're reminding me now that one of the first things that we had to do before we were allowed to hire anyone, according to this HR firm, was you must define what the first three months of success looks like for this new position. What is the project or the accomplishment that they will be building? And they wanted to put that into the the job descriptions as well, and you know it was a little heavy-handed, definitely, I think, for the stage we were at. But the principle remains that you need to know what problem you're actually trying to solve before you hire for it what are you trying to solve for?
Speaker 2:exactly and how are you going to reasonably test for that and to continue with that trend or with that theme reasonably? Can you reasonably test for that? Because, yeah, you can have like eight rounds and try to do some pseudoscientific personality tests and get eight different opinions and you're probably going to scare the candidate away. There's only so much data you can get. At some point you have to just accept that this is a risk and that's why we have our probationary periods and they know it, we know it, we're testing them out.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you for saying that. If you're a company, listen to this. If you're a manager and you have seven rounds of interviews, check yourself please. You're probably scaring away good candidates and it's just like screams. I doubt myself. To me, that's just like you're so nervous to make a decision. It's show they're always wondering well, what do I have to do for the interview? What should I be prepared for? Can you just give us a glimpse? Like if you hired junior engineers, what were some things you were looking for?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I want to touch on something you said earlier as a segue into this, because you're like oh, should you only hire CS degrees or not?
Speaker 2:When I first started hiring at that company I only hire juniors, really, at that director level company. I'm not saying I only hire juniors. That's the company I hire juniors at, and so I was very open. I'm like you know what I'm going to hire all these bootcamp? I'm going to interview people who have their new bootcamp graduates or they came from not traditional backgrounds and they just broke into tech a few months ago and they have their capstone project on their LinkedIn. I really wanted to make it work. I capstone project on their LinkedIn. I really wanted to make it work. I'll be honest, a lot of them came in and they just they didn't have a lot of the fundamentals that a CS degree was going to have. And I'm not saying that a CS degree is essential, but the data structures and algorithms and the problem solving. I'm not saying you need to be a master at leak code, at least according to me. Maybe nowadays the trend is you know you got a leak code and grind with it or whatever.
Speaker 2:but I can just tell them what problem solving there was a bit of rigor that was lacking. I think I still hired someone, though, and what's going to differentiate you, if you're coming from that type of background, is really figuring out how to paint a picture of how your non-traditional tech background can actually be an asset in the current role. You look at what assets do you have and make sure you try to emphasize that as much as possible so that you can downplay your limitations and, with that being said, be open about your limitations. I think the self-awareness that's the number two First is emphasize what you're good at, but be self-aware and open about the things you're not good at. Not that you should say like oh well, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm getting all insecure, but if a question comes up or if they start probing in a certain area, just own up.
Speaker 2:This isn't something I'm so strong in right now. Here's what I'm doing to upskill in that and that drive. Being able to demonstrate your passion, demonstrate your ambition, demonstrate your focus to filling those gaps is a huge plus for a junior engineer from any background, Because you're not going to have all those decades of experience, whatever, from any background, because you're not going to have all those decades of experience or whatever. It is years and years of experience in the adult.
Speaker 1:I appreciate you saying that Like straight up. I think it's odd sometimes that people will look at like a CS degree holder a person who went to four years of school and likely was coding even before that and was doing this for hundreds, thousands of hours perhaps of learning, academic study, and then look at a career changer and think that the skills needed, that they can get a three-month bootcamp especially now as expectations have risen will put you on even ground. I own a coding mentorship program. I shy away from the term bootcamp but we tell people this is gonna be a year and it's gonna be tough and you are gonna have to learn.
Speaker 1:We can't spoon feed you everything. We can't make you just a React developer. That's not gonna be a key to a long career. It could be the key to get you a job if you're a little bit lucky. But that's not what we want, that's not what most people want. But they don't realize that, yes, it's quite a lot of work to be on just even footing just barely even footing with a typical CS degree, and that should be no surprise. If you're spending four years learning something, you're obviously going to be a little better at it. But let me ask you this Did you care whether they have the degree or not? They get the same interview, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, if they ticked a lot of the other boxes in terms of what their interests were or if they had internships or their capstone project, whatever the case was, then I gave them a chance for sure. And I'm pretty sure I hired at least one person who did not have a CS degree, if not more Like it wasn't a requirement in the job description. I specifically did not put it as a requirement in the job description because I wanted to keep the candidate pool as broad as possible.
Speaker 1:Yep, exactly, yeah, exact same thing here. Like I didn't care and I didn't really look at it. Like if somebody went to Stanford or MIT, I'm like whoa, that's impressive, and I'd give their resume a second glance, but that was kind of it. Then they might get to the interview portion earlier, but they would get the same question as literally the guy. We had a guy, he had a high school degree and he ended up becoming a senior. He was, he was exceptionally talented, very, very smart guy, but there was a young woman who went to UCLA and they're both on the same team. It was an interesting combination of people because, yeah, that's the weird thing about tech, it's like people don't really care much about the degree, to an extent, like that interview is the interview, whether you go to Google or a startup down the street, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, another piece of advice I guess I'll give juniors who are trying to break in is broaden your search. Don't just look to be a web developer or to be a backend developer or just to be one of the top three titles. If you were asked to be one of the most popular types of software engineers, so maybe there's a position that's much more customer focused or a position that's much more product focused. And if you were a former marketer, then you can leverage the fact that, like I understand customer pain points and work on a very product focused team that is shipping very quickly and always engaging with customers, and I'm a bubbly personality and I can talk to them. You know, don't think that you have to shoehorn yourself into some very narrow definition of what success looks like.
Speaker 1:I love that man. I got recently hit up for a content engineering role and I was like what the hell does that mean? And they're like content engineer what? And they said they needed somebody that could code but also knew how to basically be like a person online and write articles. And they'd seen some articles I've written and so we think you'd be great for this role. I'm like dude, I would love to be in this role. It unfortunately wasn't a good time, but that was such a cool thing to even think existed. There's a lot more room now beyond the three or four titles, like you just said, that we all get too caught up in. That's super good advice.
Speaker 2:I just want to add another point. You might find that this job is very customer focused, for example, whereas this one is very much internal focused. Start categorizing the jobs into jobs that these ones are much more complimentary to my history, these ones are not, and focus on that. I got a piece of advice as I was breaking into my coaching career over here. You know that I should strive to be the best in the world. That doesn't mean I'm going to be objectively the best in the world coach out of all the coaches in the world, but I have to figure out what my world is in which I can be the best in that world.
Speaker 1:I like that. Yeah, I feel you. Yeah, I try to be one of one, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:I feel you. Yeah, I try to be one of one, right? Yeah, figure out what problems I'm best at solving and then that's my world the people who have those challenges and need the support I can offer. They call it your niche, right? Yes, it works in marketing a lot. That's what you call it. I've learned that, but I think, as a job searcher, I'm realizing're enjoying this episode.
Speaker 1:Now you know that I own an anti-boot camp with my buddy, zubin, an ex-Google software engineer. If you're interested in not just learning how to code and you know it's going to take more than three months and you're serious about making a transition into a career in software and you want to work with people that have done it before and are currently working in senior plus levels, join me and Zubin at parsityio slash inner dash circle. You can learn all about our philosophy, how we approach learning how to code and switching careers in a much different way, and how we have so much gosh dang success. If you're interested in being one of the few people that works with us this year, go and apply at parsityio slash inner dash circle. And now back to the episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so true. You get to figure out what are you good at. How can you play up your strengths and skills? Because ultimately you're a risk if you're trying to break into software, especially as a career changer. You're a risky hire. How can you mitigate that risk? How can you look like more software engineers had?
Speaker 2:Okay, there's two that come to mind, and if I had to choose one, which one would it be? Okay, I'm going to say empathy honestly, it's a good one.
Speaker 2:Understanding that not everyone thinks like you, not everyone sees the world like you. Not everyone has your experience, and that goes for your peers, your managers and the rest of the company. The more you can learn to see the world through other people's eyes, as individuals or as different roles, the more you will be able to tolerate what you think is ridiculous stuff, for lack of a better term. In the company. It's about changing your internal wiring so that less things bother you, as opposed to being someone who's just bothered by so many things. What life do you want to live? A life where you're bothered by everything or a life where you can just accept things that you have no control over anyway?
Speaker 1:usually, yeah, that's a super good one. Yeah, I think that we have. We have too many smart assholes a lot of times in the developer community. I hope I'm not one. I, you know, I've felt myself. The longer I stay in it, the more I find myself sometimes having those traits. I'm like I gotta, I gotta step back because now that I've seen the pitfalls of doing certain things or I think I know how something's going to turn out and I have more, I have stronger opinions that have now hardened over time and I don't want to be that because I've seen that I've been on the receiving end of that. I'm not the best developer in the world I've rarely ever been that and I've dealt with some really top-notch developers and I've seen the ones that lack empathy and also I see how much it hurts their career, because I've met some super-duper seniors that say, hey, I want to be in management, jerks. I'm like there's no way Nobody would let you do that, my friend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's also the additional struggle. Maybe you're not a total jerk and you're still lacking empathy, but what's happening is you just become angry because things don't go the way you think they should go, or the senior managers aren't making decisions that you agree with, and you cannot see the world from the eyes of someone who's on a different spot in the org chart or who has different metrics that are measuring their success, or that just has different pressures.
Speaker 2:And so you think the whole company's dumb, you think nobody's smarter and no one knows what they're doing. Why don't they just listen to me? And you might still be passive, aggressive at worst. Maybe at best you're just quietly frustrated and losing faith. Let's say, if you had a little bit of empathy you'd be able to understand, you'd have the empathy, maybe with a sprinkle of curiosity, like why is it that people are making different decisions than I would make if I was in that position? Mm-hmm, what is it that's leading to that? And maybe you still won't agree with it, but at least you'll understand. It's nothing personal, it's not about their intelligence, it's just how it is. It's reality. It's different pressures. There's no such thing as the perfect solution. Sometimes it's trade-offs.
Speaker 1:Okay, that was a really good one. What's the other thing that you're going to say?
Speaker 2:Yeah well, communication, empathy is also changing your internal wiring. You better accept and understand what's going on outside of yourself. Communication is the ability to take what's inside of yourself and bring it out into the world so other people can better understand what's going on inside of you. That is extremely important to be broadcasting things that you're doing in an effective way, understanding how to say it, who to say it to, when to say it, what medium to say it, with Learnable skills that just open up so many doors. They avert so many fires and, again, it leads to more satisfaction, because when you're going to be more understood by others and when you're more understood, you're less frustrated, you're less angry.
Speaker 1:Dude, that was some serious nuggets right there. You just dropped because, uh yeah, I was kind of your prototypical, quiet software engineer. I just wanted to be in my little hole and not be bothered and thought, like, if I just keep working good and keep moving these tickets across the board, I'm going to be recognized and they're going to promote me magically or something that my manager will notice. And that time never really came. And then I began realizing, oh, there's a game that's being played a little bit Like and it's not a game like people are trying to screw you over. It's just that I'm invisible. And how do I become more visible?
Speaker 1:And you're right, it brought me a lot more satisfaction when I had an opinion and when I wanted to share, when I had debates with people like, oh, this is actually kind of fun, you know. Now I'm beginning to make changes here, now I'm understanding how these people are thinking, now I'm getting noticed, now people are looking at me more seriously and that really changed my career. Honestly, more than anything else, more than all the technical books I read or all the courses I took, that single switch was the biggest thing. So excellent, excellent advice. So now we've talked about engineering, manager, stuff, all the behind the scenes pulled back the curtain I think a lot of people are interested in. Now let's talk about some of the stressors that are involved in the life of a software engineer. Why, why are we so stressed out?
Speaker 2:Because we never actually know what we're doing. We never know what we're, what the goal is. We're always adapting right, like the ideal software engineering team, and structure these days is all about be agile, small agile, just iterate, experiment and learn. And while that can be extremely exciting and I agree that that's the best way to structure a team and to launch a product it can drive you crazy we're just always moving the target. We're always making it up anew, like every sprint that lack of clarity can get to you. The engineering and product departments they get it. They understand all this need to pivot and to have this adaptive mindset. But then everywhere else in the business is operating under a deterministic schedule with set deadlines and set constraints and public expectations, and it's like you have these like two worlds that are mixed together.
Speaker 2:And so when those clash which they always inevitably do a few times, a few times a quarter or a few times a year, depending on how mature your company is then that creates a ton of stress, and what it boils down to is a lot of times like we're against these crazy random deadlines that you just, yeah, come out of the blue.
Speaker 1:It feels like it always just happens like wait what we have to launch, like this thing, by this date, and that's something we don't often talk about. Right, it's like never about like, oh yeah, the unmovable dates. Or you work in e-commerce, like Black Friday or I remember when it used to be the time of the year changed that we have, oh really.
Speaker 1:Like, yeah, and everything would break. Oh no, daylight savings happen. All of our libraries that we're dealing with dates now have broken. This is like five now have broken. This is like five, six years ago. That shouldn't happen anymore. But yeah, that kind of sums up, I think, a lot of the stress that we feel. You're working with a lot of software engineers that are feeling like this burnout stress. What are some of the themes that you're seeing in these people. What's causing this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of people are trying to keep up with what I guess you would call the rat race. There's a constant pressure to stay ahead of the curve, to always learn new things so that you can differentiate yourself, and technology just moves so quickly. There's this strong pressure to just constantly stay within the market's expectations, and what that does is it creates a lot of burnout, because people, instead of shutting off after work and going to hang out with their family or their friends or just doing other restorative things and activities, they're like okay, I need to learn the latest framework in X, y and Z.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so what happens is they either learn that framework and that stresses them out because they're not actually rejuvenating themselves ever or they're not learning the framework, but they're constantly feeling this pressure and guilt that they're not learning it. And another theme is that there are engineers who are very successful in many ways. They're very bright and they're very accomplished in their current position, but they've become this indispensable engineer at their company and they were never properly developed in terms of marketable skills. They got really good at what this one company needs.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they're always getting stuck on that project, and typically these are people who also don't have the greatest, I guess, communication and empathy skills, and so they just, even within that company, they get stuck, and then they go to the market and don't know what to do because they can't present themselves properly, and it creates this imposter syndrome, or just this disincentive to even go to the market.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, I've met people in this position. It's one of the most. It hurts me when I see that, because I feel bad for people. They've given a lot of themselves, they've gotten really specialized in this really niche role, often with a particular technology stack that they're an expert in and that stack may not be popular on the market anymore and they find themselves in this rough position where it's like, well, now what, I've made a career out of doing this, I have a life out of doing this, and now it feels like nobody wants me and that's a really tough one to see happen to people. So how are you helping people with this stuff? These are tough problems to solve, for sure. I mean there's much mental, probably more mental than technical, for sure. But, yeah, what are some ways that you've seen that actually help people overcome these challenges?
Speaker 2:Yeah, my approach as a coach is I work with the person to help them understand what it is they actually want in their career, what is important in their life, why are those things important, why do they want those things, and help them understand what the cost is of not getting all of that.
Speaker 2:And I don't get any advice usually unless I take my coaching hat off. But I really lean into a pure coaching approach where it's really an internal journey where people come to their own awareness. What I do is I bring awareness of the impact of the decisions that they're making and the awareness of they feel comfortable, what changes they can make to move the needle on those important things other than the coding and I've seen tremendous success where people just transform their approach. It's an internal game. Why is it important? Once you really know something is important and what the cost is, you're very likely to make the changes. When you're being guided, you know just intellectually it's not enough and even just emotionally it's not enough. When you have someone who's like keeping you accountable, you can make changes in a real tangible way.
Speaker 1:Oh man, we all get in our heads so much. I mean, I feel like I'm really guilty of this and I'll just spin my wheels in my head and it's really hard to talk about my problems to my mom or to my wife, whatever they don't understand. Sometimes, like you're saying, all these things are immediately resonating with me. I'm like, yes, yes, you get it. You get what's going on. I think that's super important. You can feel really alone in this career and just as a person like the worst thing that you can have to deal with is like indecision and you need somebody to just weigh your thoughts against and just get like a second either opinion, or somebody like hey, I'm thinking of this, or you don't know what you really want. A lot of times I'll ask myself like that what do you really want? That's a pretty deep question, because a lot of times, like what I don't know, it hurts to think Thinking hurts and it's so easy to not think with all the distractions we have.
Speaker 2:Another profile that I feel the need to mention another type of engineer that I help is I've found myself leaning into helping engineers with ADHD.
Speaker 2:This is a severely under-supported community in the software engineering space and I worked with an engineer who had ADHD.
Speaker 2:I was his person's manager and I learned a lot about it and I found that I really resonated with them and I was able to give them a lot of the structure they needed as their manager to thrive and really leverage their hyper-focus to create amazing results.
Speaker 2:And one of my projects as a coach has actually been hosting an ADHD software engineering community, and the anchor of that community is a weekly meetup where we're getting together for 90 minutes and we are setting a goal. We meet up at the 45 minute mark, we share our progress, take a quick break and then finish up and then all, at the end, share our results, and we've been doing it four or five weeks now in a row. I actually have two sessions per week and there's a Slack group that we've created. It's called Task Together, and that is another, let's say, if I have to say, a type of engineer that I'm finding is struggling to find the time to focus in this fast pace. Find the time to focus in this fast pace, and then I don't blame them and I've been able to help them by creating this space for them, and it's been awesome.
Speaker 1:I love that. There's something interesting that I've noticed One. We need the link to that That'll be in the show notes, for sure, for people that are interested in joining that. There's so many people with ADHD that are in this profession and I feel like it attracts people that have traits that probably lend themselves to being really good at a career like software engineering. It has to have a higher percentage of people with ADHD than other places, it just has to. I've just met too many, just anecdotally. I just think of all the software engineers I've met over the years that have ADHD and it makes perfect sense. Well one. Thank you so much for speaking to me today. I really enjoyed this conversation. There couldn't be a better time for somebody like you to be doing what you're doing, because I feel like we're all collectively feeling more stressed, maybe, than we had before, especially as software engineers. Where else can?
Speaker 2:people find you. Yeah, go to thecompleteengineercom. There you can see some information on my coaching services and find me on LinkedIn. You'll send my profile link out in the show notes and there you can find information about my Task Together community as well.
Speaker 1:Nice, that, yeah, awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. That'll do it for today's episode of the Develop Yourself podcast. If you're serious about switching careers and becoming a software developer and building complex software and want to work directly with me and my team, go to parsityio, and if you want more information, feel free to schedule a chat by just clicking the link in the show notes. See you next week.
