My Favourite Beatles Song
My Favourite Beatles Song
Heading For The Light – Neil West
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Apple veteran Neil West joins us to discuss Heading for the Light, from Traveling Wilburys Volume 1, highlighting George Harrison at his happiest and most spiritual, Roy Orbison's heavenly cameo, and the easy friendship that made the Wilburys such an unlikely joy. He also talks about his new book, It Just Works: The Nine Simple Rules of Apple's Success, out now from Macmillan Business.
- It Just Works, by Neil West: https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/neil-west/it-just-works/9781035082001
- Neil's website: https://neilwest.com
- Neil's TED talk – Steve Jobs, The Beatles and team management: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBX9qNdj6Po
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Original music by Joe Kane
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Welcome to my favorite Beatles song, the podcast where we celebrate the music of the Beatles with a distinguished guest. I'm Tim Tucker, and with me today is author Neil West. Welcome, Neil.
SPEAKER_01Hello, Tim. Very nice to be back.
SPEAKER_04You're back because you were on the second ever episode of this podcast back in season one, talking about something from Abbey Road. But uh before we get in there, I mean you did your Beatles origin story, and there's loads of great information about your time at Apple Music and how you interacted with the Beatles catalogue during that time. So I urge listeners to go and listen to that. But what's been going on since then for you, Neil?
SPEAKER_01Um I left Apple uh almost four years ago, and lots been going on in that time. Uh but perhaps one of the things most interesting to this particular podcast is I did a TED talk that was very much about the Beatles. I took one of Steve Jobs his old quotes when he once said that his model for management was the Beatles.
SPEAKER_00My model of business is the Beatles. Uh I, you know, though they were four very talented guys, four guys who kept each other's kind of negative tendencies in check. They balanced each other, and the sum was greater, the the total was greater than the sum of the parts. And that's how I see business. You know, great great things in business are never done by one person. They're done by a team of people. With the Beatles, when they were together, uh they did truly brilliant, innovative work. And when they split up, they did good work, but it was it it was never the same. And I I see business that way too. It's really always a team.
SPEAKER_01And what does he say? He said, um, John stopped Paul from being a teeny bopper. Paul, I can't remember what he said about Paul. Obviously, something great. And then George bought a tremendous amount of soul, and I don't know what Ringo did, which was very harsh on Ringo. Um, but I took um, and he went on to say some more things, but I took that as the starting point for my TED talk, which was uh Steve Jobs, the Beatles, and what the two of them teach all people who manage teams and organizations about um effective and creative team management. That was the idea.
SPEAKER_04It was a great talk, and it's available online, so I'll drop, if you don't mind, a link to that in the show notes.
SPEAKER_01Yes, thank you, Tim.
SPEAKER_04And that led to uh you authoring a book uh kind of indirectly, didn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's right. So I am soon to have my first book published by uh McMillan Business, and it is about simplicity. It's about how simplicity helps you win in terms of how you organize, how you treat the people you're doing your work for, um, and so on and so on. And I I'm taking lots of examples from Apple and showing how Apple has really done a fantastic job of putting simplicity to work and the lessons that we can all take from it.
SPEAKER_04I've read that book, it's fantastic. I highly urge listeners to check it out. And uh, if I recall correctly, there are some Beatles references in there which must have spilled over from your talk, I imagine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. Um, and in one of the chapters is about um the importance of focusing on um just a few number of things, and how sometimes uh that means just focusing on one thing, going all in. And I tell the story of when the Beatles catalogue launched on iTunes and the word came down from Steve directly that we were doing this for a whole month and pretty much nothing else. Uh, and I talk through how that felt and what the results were, and surprise, surprise, how it ended up proving that Steve Jobs was smarter than I was.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's a fantastic read. I think not just for business people, but for anyone who um has projects in their life or things that they need to achieve, I think all those lessons that you've learned from your time at Apple and other places is channeled through that book. Uh and yeah, I highly recommend it. The song you've chosen to talk about is Heading for the Light by the Travelling Wilburys. It was recorded in May 1988 in Dave Stewart's LA Home Kitchen, first of all, and then finished in the summer of 1988 at the Friar Park studio that uh Harrison owned in Henley on Thames. It was released on the album Travelling Wilburys Volume 1 on the 24th of October 1988 in the UK, actually earlier in the US, 18th of October 1988. It rose very quickly to number three on the Billboard chart, selling two million in its first six months, and went on to be a triple platinum album in the US, reached number 16 in the UK, and overall sold over 5 million copies worldwide. So those are the facts, but tell us about your relationship to this song and to the Wilburys in general.
SPEAKER_01I chose this song, um, it's another George Harrison song. Uh no apologies there. I chose Heading for the Light because firstly it's a it's a great song. It's a great, let's call it a pop song. We can, I'm sure we'll get into all the reasons why. But mainly because George sounds so happy. And what a what a wonderful thing that is, right? I mean, you know, we know that George's life um certainly towards the end of the Beatles and through a lot of the 70s and even the 80s um was remarkable in many ways, but oftentimes it wasn't happy. Uh and we can hear that in his music. You know, we had angry, world weary, earnest, um, yearning, philosophical, we had at times cynical, um, and how wonderfully refreshing, and for all of us who in some way uh were in love with George to hear just uh a new dawn and a real moment of celebration and happiness come through in his music. And and for me, the whole song is associated with happiness, and it's one of the songs that has been most played in our car with the kids, singing along. Uh it's a family favorite, not just mine.
SPEAKER_04This this project, of course, just I'm sure everyone knows, but it's a coming together, a supergroup, if you will, of you know, artists who at this time, including George, were arguably beyond their peak. Bob Dylan, Roy Orbison, Tom Petty, Jeff Lynn, and George. And yeah, that this coming together, you talk about the happiness for George. This seems to have been, I think, perhaps what accounts for his happiness, don't you? This kind of friend that you know, usually we think of supergroups as being something that's quite hard to set up and perhaps ego-driven. There doesn't seem to be any of that in the Wheelbury's, does there?
SPEAKER_01I think they're all way past that. Um you know, one of the I remember very early on in my times in the music industry, someone said, you know, throughout the music industry, very quickly, in any room you find yourself in, there will be calculations as to find out who is the big swinging dick, right? And it's all about the posturing and it's all about the power gains. I think in this case, I don't know, Tim, I was a little disappointed for you to start off by saying they're but they're past their peak. I think they are legends for whom all of that stuff doesn't matter anymore, right? They're all past it. They've got nothing, they've got nothing to prove. It doesn't matter who's the big swinging dick. And by the way, that's an interesting debate and whether we can get into it. Is it Dylan or is it Harrison? I mean, maybe we want to get into that, right? But I think the point is that they didn't care. Um uh uh and there certainly was a great deal of happiness in it for Harrison. I think you know, we'll get into it, but everyone talks about the recording sessions and the whole experience around it as being one of fun and camaraderie and positivity. And my sense is just from what I know of George's story, it the recording of um The Traveling Wilbures and that coming together, as we know, came from his uh recording of the album Cloud Nine, which he did with Jeff Lynn, um, which we know he found to be both um commercially very successful and something that really he enjoyed doing. But the release before that in 1982 had been a real failure. And we know that he was really disenchanted with the music business, had really made a retreat. He wasn't interested in promoting that previous record, he was very cynical about it, but but I think I like to think that while he was focused on other things, um, gardening, Formula One, getting involved with the film business, and having his child, Danny. I I like to think that Harrison was finding happiness, he was finding fulfillment. Uh, and then Cloud9, and then the Wilburys is a fruition of that happiness and an expression of it.
SPEAKER_04One commentator said that this this song, Heading for the Light, is a follow-up to a song on Cloud Nine called Fish on the Sand. I don't know if you know that one, which is another, because clearly Heading for the Light has religious or spiritual overtones, doesn't it? And um in Fish on the Sand, he says, I know you're in the sun, I know you're close to everyone. At times it's like you don't have a hold on me. I'm not so much of a man, I'm like a fish on the sand. So there's a bit of um, even there, a bit of despair almost. And and certainly the lyrics of Heading for the Light tend to seem to be a new optimism, doesn't it? There's there's a note of something new he's found in his spirituality. Do you get that from it?
SPEAKER_01100%. Um, and um a lot of the the lyrics are focused not on the light ahead but on the dark past, right? Um uh I was lost in the night with no sight of you. It was at times it was so blue and lonely, which is classic harrison in a way, and and classic harrison use of the word you, the ambiguous you. Is he talking about a lover or is he talking about the divine? And I think I I think in this case, certainly my interpretation is he's talking about the divine, but but again, that you is always so so tantalizing.
SPEAKER_04You know, there's a there's hints that is passed here all the way through, aren't there, about the kind of jokers and fools on either side. You you get a feeling that he's been through all of the kind of worst parts of the music industry, and you know, you meant you mentioned it, his time in the Beatles at the end seemed to have weighed heavily on him. I mean, one of the big contrasts of the Wilbur's is how much happier he seems in this band than he did in the Beatles at the end, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01100%. Um, and and it seems a very simple, simple pleasure of making music with friends, and you have to you have to imagine that much like McCartney spent so much of the 70s with wings trying to get back to that simple feeling and that recipe. And and I think you could argue ultimately unsuccessfully for McCartney. Uh with Harrison, you know, it took him it took him another 20 odd years, but but he really got there.
SPEAKER_04The way they tell the story, and I think this is maybe a little bit disingenuous because there are different stories, but the story, the sort of official story they told was it was an accident that that um he needed to record a B-side for This Is Love, uh single off Cloud Nine. He just happened to be with Jeff Lynn and Orbison just happened to be hanging around and they just happened to get Dylan's studio and Petty was there with a guitar. I don't know. I mean that sounds beautiful, but there's other stories in which Lynn talked of them getting together a bit beforehand and talking about it possibly even a year before. I don't know. It's it's kind of a bit clouded that. But however, they did come together, it feels so relaxed. I mean, if you've seen that, I urge anyone who hasn't yet seen it, it's on YouTube, the you know, the true story of the travelling wheelbury is uh how relaxed they all seem in each other's company.
SPEAKER_01And and just to go back to the formation, the knowing the the record business, let's call it as I do, I suspect that the slightly more cynical version probably is the truth. Um, and and while we can, and I hope we do get to this argument as to who was the the main man, was it Dylan or Harrison? Who was the big kahuna? Um, we know that it it wasn't Jeff Lynn, and that Jeff Lynn was very happy to play the enabler and the whisperer. And um, you know, that's part of how you deal with egos, right? You you you kind of do what needs to be done to make someone think it was their idea all along.
SPEAKER_04So talking to Paul Zolo in the book Conversations, Tom Petty said George was our leader and our manager. He wanted to be in a band, but he wanted to avoid all the pitfalls that a band has. He didn't want it to be so overtly serious that it became a chore. And that's that I think I think it's credit to George that it that it's pulled it off, don't you? I think his leadership was quite extraordinary. You know, to your point about you know, um Steve Jobs talking about the Beatles model. Actually, George is a great leader and he lets it be comfortable, he doesn't let anyone get abrasive with each other or competitive. He sets the scene for a fantastic creative uh environment, doesn't he?
SPEAKER_01Totally agreed. Um, and as you already acknowledged, absolutely assisted by Dylan being willing to essentially become a band member and the fantastic production and organization skills of Jeff Lynn backing him up. I think the fact that that all five of the uh Wilburys, let's call them, um, had to a greater or lesser extent pre-existing relationships, right? Right. Harrison had toured with George uh uh sorry, with Roy Orbison uh very early on in the Beatles, right? The Beatles supported Roy on a tour, right?
SPEAKER_04And they looked up to him enormously, didn't they, as a singer?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, he was a hero. Um, we know that George uh towards the end of the Beatles spent time with Dylan, went on the road with the band, they had stayed close. We know that Jeff Lynn, of course, is this wonderful enabler, um, and I'm sure a great politician, and and had built those connections with Harrison over the recording of uh Cloud Nine. Uh, and then we know that uh he also had relationships with Tom Petty. So they were they were all friends. I think they all got past the ego part of it, but let's not forget they're also five hugely, hugely talented individuals. I mean, it's gotta be fun, right?
SPEAKER_04If you watch the um the documentary, they just I mean, I you just want to be there, don't you, in that kitchen in Dave Stewart's house in LA where they're just hanging out. Uh you know, the the pace of it, doing a song a day, but no sense of stress about that. Because they had to do it quickly because Dylan was going on tour in 10 days. So they had to get it all down. Um, but yeah, it just seemed like such a beautiful environment and perhaps a one-off in rock history in that sense, I think.
SPEAKER_01I can't think of another example um of a maybe you could say band-aid.
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01I I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Um that's a bigger scale, but yeah, yeah, I take your point. Yeah. And so, yeah, so what happens um from the from this collaboration is that different members step forward to get different tracks during those 10 days, don't they? So, and they seem to have written them on the spot. I don't know how much they brought in, but you get very Dylan-y songs like Congratulations, um, you get very Tompetti-ish songs like End of the Line. And George, George certainly steps to the fore in handle with care and this one. And as we've said, this this song, very spiritual, although, as you say, it could be personal, um, certainly personal in his relationship to spirituality. Do you anything see anything new in his spiritual take here?
SPEAKER_01I don't see nothing new, but I feel a lot of change. Can I can I say that? Um I I haven't dissected the lyrics and and I couldn't point to anything that is uh you know empirically different, but but again, there's a there's a for want of a I'm gonna make another pun, there's a lightness here, there's a there's a happiness, there is a unquestioned, uh unquestioning sense that uh he's arriving somewhere great. For me, the killer line is that I don't see nothing new, but I feel a lot of change. And for me, when I hear that, it that speaks to my interpretation and understanding of George's Hindu philosophy. Uh, that you know, liberation doesn't necessarily mean rearranging the external world, it it means transforming how you perceive it and how you process that perception. And for me, that is encapsulated beautifully in that one line.
SPEAKER_04Harrison, as you said at the beginning of the podcast, ever heard him this positive and this sort of, you know, intent on on finding the way. To me, that's the most uplifting part about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we've heard him, we've heard him seeking, we've heard him seeing it from afar, we've we've heard him uh taking steps on the journey that I I can't think of another song other than perhaps Here Comes the Sun, where he's arrived.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and the music does that too, because he if we talk about just his spiritual songs, and again, here Here Comes the Sun might be the other one, but this is the most poppy, isn't it? The most upbeat pop kind of commute almost commercial sounding spiritual song of all, I think.
SPEAKER_01That's right. May maybe, maybe you might put my sweet lord in there, or um maybe give me love, maybe, but but no, and and I think that's that's Jeff Lynn as much as anything else, I would argue.
SPEAKER_04There is a rare sort of demo of the instrumental that is even faster than the than the finished song. So it was all obviously in envisaged, well, it seems to me it was envisaged as an upbeat number from the start, and I don't know whether he'd had the lyrics by that point.
SPEAKER_01What is it? It's it's 130, I think, something like that. 130 beats per minute shuffle, I guess you'd call it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, shuffle, definitely. Yeah, it's got that kind of rock shuffle feel, isn't it? Yeah. And it's in B major, but there are delicious little minor chords in there. Um, E minor, the G sharp minor in the final key.
SPEAKER_01I have to say, I think that this is one of Harrison's strongest vocal performances. Um I suspect, and you tell me, Tim, I suspect he's towards the the top of his range. It gives it that, it gives it that little extra oomph. Again, you can hear the confidence, you can hear, you can hear the light. Um I I love his singing on this recording. Um, and for me, as well as this being one of my favorite songs, I think this might be um up there with my favourite Harry. Vocal performance.
SPEAKER_02I was lost in the night with Osai Doo.
SPEAKER_04I totally agree. I think it's a great vocal performance, slightly, as you say, at the top of his range. There's also um there's an ethereal Orbison backup vocal in it as well.
SPEAKER_01I mean well, in the little mini documentary that you mention about the making of this album, uh Tom Petty is full of great lines, of course. I mean, you know, he was he was there for vibes as much as anything else, and and he just can't help himself. He's just you know, he's just saying cool things. Um, but he just he said that we viewed Roy Orbison as our ace in the hole, right? And and and absolutely this is an example. It's a the heading for the light is trundling along, it's a great song, you're loving it, there's lots to enjoy. And then, and then hang on a minute, is that Roy Orbison just coming in with this beautiful note, basically? And of course, it is Roy Orbison, and and what I mean, what a cherry on the cake.
SPEAKER_04It can only be described as heavenly, isn't it? It's a sort of almost operatic feel to it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and I I love your analogy. It it is almost the angel waiting for you at the gate. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_04I mean, the the great sort of irony of this is that he died shortly afterwards, of course. So a lot of this, and he he did get to see some of its success, but he died in December, didn't he, of 1988.
SPEAKER_01So um But again, it does seem at least everything I've read and everything I know, is that um Orbison was as happy and as cheered um and as fulfilled by this project as all of the others, and um what a wonderful thing to have as your last creative chapter.
SPEAKER_04We should talk about the the musicians as well. So there is the honorary Wilbury, is Jim Keltner, the drummer who did a lot of work for Solo Beatles and Harry Nilsson and many others. He's a kind of rock drummer of choice, wasn't he? And he really drives this, I think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh definite honorary band member. Um, and again, there's that wonderful bit in the documentary where you see them just again having fun, recording in Jeff Lynn's kitchen. And I think at one point he's playing the fridge. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, he's playing managed. It's Dave Stewart's kitchen, isn't it? And um uh that they're in in LA, and yeah, he plays Dave Stewart's fridge, which is uh yeah. I I wonder where if that fridge ever went up for sale. I'd I'd be up for auctioning that one. And the other great thing is the the sax, of course, Jim Horn. They were aptly named Jim Horn's rock and roll sax at the end, which uh beautiful addition to the song.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful addition to the song. Um now I'm not always a fan of saxophone. I it's funny, I often find myself sort of rubbing me the wrong way a little bit. Um my wife and I argue about this all the time. Um uh, but in this case, absolutely no complaints. Um, it absolutely adds to the song, wonderful playing. Um, and of course, it comes back in the what are we calling it, the coda, the second the second, the second act. Um, this song has got this false ending. You think they're done? Nope. Here they come again. Um, and and the Saks leads the charge, and it's just again joyous, and I'm gonna be a good thing. Is um, you know, for me, um I'm very happy with this choice as my um second favorite Beatles song. Thank you very much. At least for now, just like all your other guests. I completely reserve the right to change my mind in half an hour's time, but but I love this song. Um but what made me sort of raise an eyebrow to myself and question it was that I'm choosing a later era George Harrison song that doesn't really feature his guitar. We know we know he's playing on it, and you can, I think you can recognize some of those licks as George licks, but it doesn't, it's certainly not his slide guitar, which um obviously became one of his absolute trademarks. And I love um, and when I was thinking about which song I was gonna pick this time, I did spend a lot of time thinking I might do uh Cheer Down. Um the song that he did, um, I think a year or so later, with um again with Jeff Lynn lyrics co-written by Tom Petty, which was for the Lethal Weapon 2 soundtrack, I think. Um now I love that song. Um, I don't think it's as strong a uh composition and a song as Heading for the Light. It doesn't have the same wonderful um backstory, and it doesn't have Roy Orbison as an angel coming in just to take things to the next level. But but of course, what that song is, um what Cheer Down is, is basically a celebration of George Harrison's slide guitar and that sound that every time I hear it sends shivers down my spine. I love the work that Jeff Lynn did on this record and the next one. I love a lot of his ELO work. I love what he did with Tom Petty on Full Moon Fever, and there's plenty of other amazing Jeff Lynn records. I have nothing against the man whatsoever. I'm a big fan that he shouldn't have been allowed to produce the Beatles songs, should he?
SPEAKER_04I mean it's controversial, yeah. I think I think you're right. I we'd we'd have all loved it if it was George Martin, wouldn't we?
SPEAKER_01And it should have been. And and I know at the time, I think the excuse that was given was that the um the cleaning up of the Lennon tapes required a sort of forensic attention to detail that George Martin's hearing was no longer up to the task for. But come on, they could have they could have given that bit to someone else and and George Martin could have musically put together the new Beatles songs. For me, for me, that's that's a travesty that George Martin wasn't allowed to do that. And secondly, the the New Beatles songs for me um sound a sound a little bit too obviously Jefflin produced that that drum sound that that and and that's that's great in other places, but it shouldn't have been on the Beatles recording.
SPEAKER_04I I think you make a good point, and and I think it's been it's a sort of open secret now that that the reason wasn't that um that George Martin was going deaf or anything, it was that George needed to have Jeff with him and he didn't want Paul and George Martin to be ganging up on him again and leading it. And I think it was his way of balancing the power.
SPEAKER_01Well, if that's the only way it was going to happen, I would rather take two new Beatles songs, well, three, I guess you could say, um produced by um Jeff Lynn than no new Beatles songs.
SPEAKER_04So let's talk a bit about the legacy of the Wilbur's before we wrap up. So they they did record another album, volume three, which are hilariously titled volume three rather than volume two. Um, and of course, their career wasn't at its height. Certainly Dylan's wasn't and George Harrison's wasn't. But following this, they had great success. So obviously, sadly, Orbison died, but um Mystery Girl was a fantastic album. It came out after the Wilburries. Dylan had um Oh Mercy, which is considered one of his all-time great albums, came out after this. Obviously, Tom Petty went on to do Full Moon Fever, which was fabulous albums. So there was really, it feels almost like I want to say the narrative that injected all of them with a new lease of life in their careers.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and maybe uh and maybe that was creative, and maybe that was uh perhaps reminding them all that this business of making records can be fun. Which which you know always seems so alien and ridiculous, doesn't it, to those of us who never got to do that for a living. But we've all you know heard enough and seen enough to know that unfortunately the joy can be stripped out of the process quite quickly. And maybe it just all gave them a taste of what it's like to be at number one again, and and they decided they liked it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, because I think the 80s had been unkind to the 60s artist because you know, new sounds, synths, and syndrome, and it definitely left Dylan behind and confused. He he found it very hard to fit into the 1980s, I think. This brought in um that Americana strand.
SPEAKER_01There's something, there's something organic to it. The fact that it's acoustic guitars that are the foundation of um of pretty much every song, again, along with a lot of improvised found noises, you know, Jim Keltner playing the the air conditioning, I think he's doing at one point as well. Um yeah, it's Rusey.
SPEAKER_04Uh any other uh honorary Beatles songs or Harrison songs that you want to give a nod to?
SPEAKER_01Um Marwa Blues is obviously you know, it's a it's a small thing, it's in many ways it's an inconsequential thing. It's not a great song, but but I do find myself just coming back to it and back to it, and and I I never tire of listening to it. And again, it's that lovely George guitar sound. And then I I was all also thinking um I live for you, off all things must pass. Beautiful song, lots of uh George's guitar, another song in which he's found let's call it uh tranquility and contentment, but if not the happiness that we can hear on um Heading for the Light. Um, but that's an honorary mention, and I can listen to that song as many times as you want to play it.
SPEAKER_04So, Neil, you mentioned your book at the beginning of the show. Uh I know it's coming out soon. Tell us a bit more about that.
SPEAKER_01My book is called It Just Works: The Nine Simple Rules of Apple's Success. And you can get it at uh Amazon, Waterstones, hopefully, all good booksellers.
SPEAKER_04So if people want to find out more about you and your work, where where will they go?
SPEAKER_01Please come to www.neilwest.com. Um you'll find details of my book there and um other stuff that I'm doing.
SPEAKER_04Excellent. I urge people to get that and I will put links in the show notes. Um it's been a pleasure, of course, talking to you today, as always, about the Beatles and specifically heading for the light. Thank you so much. It's been great.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Tim.
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SPEAKER_04Thanks for listening to my favourite Beatles song. If you like the podcast, please consider giving it a rating or review on your favourite podcast platform. This helps me to reach new listeners. You can follow the podcast on x.com, Instagram, and Facebook. Look for the links in the show notes. Thanks to Joe Kane for the fantastic music and Mark Cunningham for the logo design. I'll see you next time.