Burning Down the House, er, Kiln - Kevin O'Keefe and His One-of-a-Kind Philosophy and Artwork of Pottery

When I started researching today’s interview with artist extraordinaire and potter Kevin O’Keefe from Mississippi I honestly would have missed the answer to that question of how long pottery as a process has been around by at least 15,000 years. 

Pottery is one of the oldest human inventions…(I thought that beer was!): a figurine discovered in the Czech Republic dates back to 29,000 or BC,[2]....pottery vessels discovered in China, date back to 18,000 BC. And pottery artifacts have been found in Japan estimated to be from about 10,500 BC).

Today’s guest, Kevin O’Keefe,  probably knew the answer to that questions….Kevin not only keeps an age old tradition alive through his pottery and artwork, but he makes useful and beautiful tools like one of a kind sake cups, incense holders and candle holders which are carried in Topdrawer shops in the United States. 

Kevin O’Keefe’s pottery is of iridescent glazes with copper reds or crystalline blues, they shimmer through the micro-crinkling of various types of reflective surfaces…rain drops of molten glaze purposefully frozen in time then they glow and glisten in candlelight…

Kevin keeps alive the magical things that can happen on a potter’s wheel, and then he tests every conceivable limit of a kiln that he built in his backyard, which burns at temperatures of nearly 2000 degrees (I looked that up)...   

Looking at his work I became interested in how someone like Kevin becomes a full time artist….why someone would take that leap of faith into a world where so many artist struggle to survive. 

During our interview, Kevin talk often of his old friend ‘andy’...  Andy, or Andrew Jessup, is the man behind the magical and illuminating design of the Topdrawer shops. Also from Mississippi, Andrew (or Andy, as Kevin calls him) and Kevin go way back….and their friendship, as you will see, is a big part of Kevin’s path toward becoming a full-time professional potter…and, I didn’t even know this was possible, they actually melted kilns…which are supposed to be the furnaces that do the melting, not be the things that actually melt themselves. 

To see Kevin’s work in-person, walk into any Topdrawer shop and you’ll find his unique and one of a kind sake cups, incense burners and candle holders…they are exquisite 

Visit Kevin’s website at http://www.kevinjohnokeefe.com to see a sampling of his work….or his YouTube channel @KevinJohnOKeefe.

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Transcript

Thom Pollard: 0:02

Here's a question for you, and it relates to today's episode. How old as a process is pottery, which essentially is the formation of vessels and other objects using clay and other raw materials fired at high temperatures to give them a hard and durable form. When I started researching today's interview with artist extraordinaire, and potter Kevin O'Keefe from Mississippi, I honestly would have missed the answer to that question of how long pottery as a process has been around by at least 15,000 years. Pottery is one of the oldest human inventions, a figurine discovered in the Czech Republic dates back to 29,000 BCE. pottery vessels discovered in China date back to 18,000 BCE, and pottery artifacts have been found in Japan estimated to be from about 10,500 vc. So raise your hands if you answered correctly. And congratulations. Today's guest Kevin O'Keefe probably knew the answer to that question. Kevin not only keeps an age old tradition alive through his pottery and artwork, but he makes useful and beautiful tools like one of a kind Saki cups, incense holders candleholders, which are carried in top drawer shops in the United States. I'm Thom Pollard. This is Tools For Nomads. Tools For Nomads is brought to you by Topdrawer. We'd love to know where you're listening from today. Please take a moment to let us know so we can learn more about you in this growing community of like minded souls. This describes Kevin O'Keeffe's pottery, it's of iridescent glazes with copper reds or crystaline blues, they shimmer through the micro crinkling of various types of reflective surfaces. Raindrops of molten glaze are purposely frozen in time like glass with a glow and glisten and candlelight. Kevin keeps alive the magical things that can happen on a potter's wheel. And then he tests every conceivable limit of a kiln that he built in his backyard, which burns to temperatures of nearly 2000 degrees. Looking at his work, I became interested in how someone like Kevin becomes a full time artist, why someone would take that leap of faith into a world where so many artists struggle to survive. During our interview, Kevin talks often about his old friend Andy, Andy or Andrew Jessup is the man behind the magical and illuminating design of the top drawer shops. Also from Mississippi, Andrew or Andy, as Kevin calls him and Kevin go way back. And their friendship, as you will see is a big part of Kevin's path toward becoming a full time professional Potter. And I didn't even know this was possible. They actually melted kilns, which are supposed to be the furnaces that do the melting, not the things that actually melt themselves. Here's my conversation with Kevin O'Keefe from his home near the Gulf coast of Mississippi. You did talk about travel and hiking up the east coast. So you did a thru hike of the Appalachian Trail. Do I have that? Correct? That's a big part of your life.

Kevin O'Keefe: 3:44

Yeah, that was a really big, really big change for me. I will tie this back into art. You know, in high school, my teacher saw something Joyce King, wonderful woman got me, got me involved, got me into college went through a number of colleges where I developed my skills. And at some point, I had some really big failures. And I'll call I'll call them learning lessons. But I had lost an entire year's worth of work in one firing. And I was like, a gun. I gave everything away. I walked away and I went got a job repairing cell phones if if you can believe it, but I was really good at fixing cell phones. Just that real intricate, intricate work, the detailed work, and I did that for about 1212 plus years. And it came down to I was so frustrated with life because I just inside me I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to play music. I didn't want to work, you know under fluorescence. And and I was telling my brother I said look, I just I feel like I have to get away from life. Like the only way I can get out of this ditch is just to sell everything I own and and walk away. And then he said You know, he was an Eagle Scout, outdoorsman sailor. And he goes, Well, what about the Appalachian Trail? You know, he's like 2200 miles long, 14 states, you have safety in the trail. And it was like, as soon as he said it, it just settled in my soul. And I was like, I have to do that. And I think that was January 1. And by March 3, with some miraculous interventions, I was on trail. And I had never even heard of it before. I unboxed my water filter on on Amicalola State Park, trying to figure out how to make it work. Like at the first shelter, I'm like, How does this you know, water pump? changed, it changed my life. And you know, we, we won't go into that, because I'll talk about that for weeks. But I came back, I came back and I just said, with this breath of life, and I said, I don't want to go back to work. I, I had a kiln, I had a studio had the skill. And I just I it's funny I had I had this idea. I said, all I need to do is get in 10 stores. So I get in 10 stores and I'm thinking I was in the Ogden in New Orleans, they carried my work for a while. I had done some work with MoMA, in New Orleans. And I just figured out hit some galleries and shops on the down here in the southeast. And if I could get 10 stores, a few pieces a week out the door than I could make my baseline to start building and literally that week, and he called me and he goes, Hey, do you think you know how to make Saki cuts? And then I was like, it's just a little cup, right? It's just a little cut. And he goes, Well, look, we got we got, I think I think it was 1111 stores. And he goes, start making some cuts. And let's see what we got. And that's when he introduced me to top drawer. And it just seemed again, like just divine intervention. And here we are today, you know, I think 14 or 15 stores in and just couldn't be a better pick me up to life. You know?

Thom Pollard: 7:11

Wow, that's so cool. I I knew the backstory of that a little bit. But that thank you for laying that out there real quickly. So you did the if you did the entire 80 and I know that you did the 80 crosses above about 10 miles away from where I live right now. And so what was your trail name, by the way?

Kevin O'Keefe: 7:33

It was good pilgrim good pilgrims,

Unknown: 7:36

good pilgrims.

Kevin O'Keefe: 7:39

It started out as pilgrim Yeah, everyone has their story. But I was, you know, the trip, obviously, because of my worldview. I had this idea of this miraculous, you know, destiny, destiny. And so I was telling the story, the similar truths of the story of John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress, which my father read to us when we were kids, you know, the, this colorful book version and, and, you know, so the stories always stuck in this journey, right, this guy that begins this journey, and, and I was telling him the similar tudes of how I felt my journey was coinciding with with that story, that childhood story. And everybody was like, your pilgrim, your pilgrim? Well, we're going up the trail. And, you know, everybody's like, what's your trail name? Yeah. Pilgrim, and they're like, Oh, you don't want that trail? And I know, you're like, really? No, you don't want that? And we're like, why? And you're like, well, there was, you know, pilgrim that was really bad. Out here. And, and then we would go a little bit further into the next town. You know, I'm pilgrims, they're like, oh, wait, no, like, No, really. And, and every, every, every time we would go a little bit further, the story would build and develop. And the next thing you know, we were literally in Damascus, quarter quarter ways up mascus, Virginia, and we walk into town. And it was like, No, this is the story. This guy pilgrim literally, like a few years before, messed with everybody, to the point of, I think threatening to to hurt people during trail days, like mass mass hurt. And he had he had every law enforcement looking for him like trying to find out what his identity was because no one knows like you just live by trail names. So here I am, like, on trail. I am pilgrim and then and so then we just started saying on pilgrim to good one and mark my trail family at that time was like no, this is pilgrim the good one. And and then you know, good pilgrim. So but it ended after trail days because the guy never made it out of Damascus. I guess the year he hiked, which was a few years before me.

Thom Pollard: 9:55

Epic trail name story. Good pilgrim. Wow. That's that's that's great. The back story. Thanks,

Kevin O'Keefe: 10:01

Sharon and I, and I always clarify, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm good. I'm just not. I'm just not the bad one. You better than the other

Thom Pollard: 10:11

one. So that's good, right? So you do the you do the 80, you come back and as you had said, it was like some intervention or something happened, you get this phone call from your friend, Andrew Jessup, who for you know, familiarity you have known as Andy, life, buddy, Andy. And, and boom, you're making Saki cups for the top drawer stores. And this might be a really cool kind of way to jump into a little bit of it. Because over your left shoulder, I'm looking at a kiln. The part about your artwork, and the pottery you make is that everything's different. Oh, your stuff is so unique. It's one of a kind. And so is that how did you develop that style? We can get back into the Psaki cup so it's I suppose, but how do you get started? Well,

Kevin O'Keefe: 11:03

well, those are two very, very different questions. I don't know how I became a potter. I know that in high school, I took a lot of art classes because I just didn't enjoy the more brainier activities. I did like history and science and math, I, I was a big struggle, school was a big struggle. Come to find socializing is a big struggle for me. So so I just tried to get in as many art classes and gym classes and, and that I could get in, and it was my teacher that I say they had some they had some pottery wheels in the room, and no one ever touched them. And I just said, that looks intriguing. I'm gonna give it a try. And I threw that, that time in school, I threw five pieces, which I still have today. They're, they're boxed up. And I mean, if you looked at him, you'd be like, okay, yeah, those, I don't know what you'd think. But But yeah, like, I threw five pieces. And she she said, you know, you got like, there's something here, there's something here. And, and they, my teacher conspired with my mom behind my back, you know, to, to collect all my work, and submit it to a local college here, William Carey. And, and they had done that, I got awarded a very big scholarship. And, and at that point, it was like, no, like, my parents were like, you're going, you're going It's either there or the military. And, and that was not about to happen. So So I went to went to William Carey, and then it just, it just developed, I took all the different art classes, sculptor sculpture, stone, wood painting, graphic design, pottery, but Clay was the one was the one medium that just, I just couldn't stop growing. Like, I wanted to do everything, like I feel like it's just, it's the, it's the creative, this the creative side of, of individuals, I just got loaded with it. And, and Clay Clay just became so natural. With the touch the texture, the way it moves, the way you can capture every little impression. No other medium does that. And, and that was before even the whole kiln stuff like I only made all through college, I only made work. And I would allow like the studio, the other studio students to fire like they would load the kilns and fire the work. And so, so none of the glazes none of the finishes were never really impressive. It's just whatever I threw on, but I just really dove into the form and how clay like what what the limits of clay were, you know, pushing the thinness, the bigness, the, you know, the most volume, and I would just lose my fail rate was so high because I would push clay to that limit. And you never know the limit of something until it breaks. And so I would just constantly break work, just to see what it could do. And as the skills improved, I got into a lot of trouble. You know, I was I was troubled and left William Carey for another Baptist College, William Carey was a Baptist College, I went to Mississippi College where they would accept all of my credits. And it just it had to work that way. And I was there for one semester. And I was the only ceramic student and out of 144 art students. I was the only ceramic student and my buddy Jonathan, who also is just a beautiful individual. You'll never know him because he's also locked in the woods in north Mississippi. And he's a sculptor, he's the only sculptor in the school. And so both of us just, you know, kindred spirits made work. Our professors gave us the freedom to do what we want. And so, so William Carey was the first school they were, they were more into formalism. So it was, it was a, you know, form over function form over function. Then I went to Mississippi College, where they gave me the freedom to just test those limits. And, and I did that, well, the second semester, they were telling me I had like, two years of language and all this music and choir, you know, these, the secondary, the secondary education. And, and what I realized is like, not to doubt them, because I felt like my position is very rare. Most people don't make it as artists, you know, I think I think I'd heard somewhere with no, you know, just what I'd heard that, like, less than 3% of individuals that get a degree in art will actually make a living with that, with that degree. So Mississippi College was giving all their students a secondary foundation to fall back on teaching, or, you know, teaching that's pretty much what they do. And I said, I'm not going to fail, like I'm, I want to be an artist and, and I was two weeks into the semester, and I dropped out, ran down to southern Southern Miss and Hattiesburg, which was where Andy was, and walked in, Kenny was like, my junior Junior, you got two years left, I was a super senior, five year, five year artists and rolled up into rolled up into southern, and they were completely conceptual, like their entire art department was hinged on this idea of just self expression. And in your creating a voice. And what I had witnessed is they weren't giving them the formalism, to build upon the foundation of, of material and tools and, and aesthetics, it was just like, you know, they would have the project like found object, political stance and nature, go make something, you know, and so then people would go out there and just find junk laying on the side of the roads and yarn bits, and they would assemble these things and, and then they would like have to tell what this thing is representing and all I was looking at was just, you know, a pile of sticks in yarn and, and all that. Well, I had come from two other schools that gave me this training this formalist training. And so then when I interjected the conceptual aspect, I No, no, you know, it's just my words, but my, my senior project body of work was, in my opinion, just I don't even know how I created it. It's, it's so detailed and meticulous. It's these massive ceramic rings, that are literally an eighth of an inch 10. These huge rings, with steel rods running through them all laid out in matte and mathematically perfect formulas that the 15th century painters used to load the canvas of hotspots. So so like Pierre, a different Cheska. If I even say his name, right? There's a piece that I don't remember the name of, but he spent two years painting it. And he spent two years loading the canvas with mathematical hotspots before paint ever touched the canvas. And when I had solved that, in my Italian Renaissance class, my first thought was, how can I apply this to sculpture? And, and then that's when I created this body of work. Well, what I had realized was the writ just the sheer retentiveness of detail, that though it was very impressive. It was just very stale. Like the pieces are impressive, but I was looking at it and I was just like, it looked like a machine made it right. It just looked like like I could make 100 more of them identical because I was I was that meticulous in in knowing my material, knowing what I wanted and going for it. And when I met Andy, Andy was like, a massive influence in my in my life. Like when I met Andy. He was just like, he loved clay. And he just expressed himself with these just, gigantic, almost creature ask him To tease and, and I was just like I learned a lot, I couldn't deal with it, I couldn't handle it. And, and so we got out of school, long story a little less long, we come down to the coast, he moves down to the coast, we had no plan, like I had no idea what he was doing. He just came down to the coast, opened up a little gallery of beautiful little space. And we started building kilns because he was the guy that fired the kilns to go back, he was the guy that fired the kills at Southern so he was firing my work, and I was making the work. So we both moved down. We start building kilns, he starts teaching me about how to fire you know, the oxidation reduction. And, and, and he, we we melted kiln after kiln we had we build these little you can see them if you look at electric conversion, electric to gas conversion kiln, people take the electrics, I think we're all familiar with the no got the electronics, throw in inlet and outlet flue, and you just plug a burner in there. And if even if you don't know what you're doing, like, you'll hit temperature, like you'll hit something, something's gonna melt. And so we probably melted, eight, eight counts. And every time we would kill the kiln, we would just build a bigger and a better one. And we started building I got I got documentations of all of our kilns that we built, just insane little projects, half of them never worked, all of them had problems. But that's, that's kind of my entire backstory of just coming to this place of, of just being being an artist working with my hands loving clay, the the individual expression came from a single piece. But the first body of work I showed with Andy, I would throw these multiple pieces, this one behind me I think is made out of three or four pieces. And then I assembled them together. So I would throw a bass that was just looked like a bowl, and then I would throw a like a cylinder. And then I would collapse the cylinder. And then I would throw other cylinders to go on top of that. And then once they set up, I would assemble them so that they looked like these long, tall pieces that just would squat and crumble. And, and the most pleasing way like the folds of the clay just looks like fabric, you know, fabric might twist. And I just fell in love with this body of work. That was my first body of work. And then came the goat. And the goat is one piece, I had this idea, you know, this piece had all these folds in it, I packed all of our kills or salt kills, which again, I'll get into we induce salt into the kiln and that creates a very appealing surface texture. But I had this wild idea that I'm going to pack salt into the folds of the piece. And so I put this thing in the kiln big beautiful, perfect meticulous piece exactly what I wanted it to be. And I fired it. And the entire thing just melts to pieces like not to pieces, but just like melts down. And you see these channels were salt liquefied, and all its highs, the clay into these rivers and channels. And then like the plates were which had these flowing soft folds were just, it looked like plate tectonics just ripping apart, like scales and some sort of like dinosaur creature like, insane. And I was so upset. I was so heartbroken. I like just ruined my piece. And I call Andy up, he's living in the gallery, and he's living his gallery at Cosmo and I said, Eddie, I ruin this piece, you know, the big beautiful piece and he goes, bring it back. I brought it over. And I'm like just distraught. And he's just looking at it. And he's like, just just look at it a little longer. And I just stopped talking, just started watching it and started looking at it. And all of a sudden it was just this instant understanding of the desire to continue to look at it, where the other work I'd made. It was just like I made it and it was gone. Like I could do it again and what it didn't impress me. But all of a sudden this piece had its own identity that I didn't make I didn't create like it was it's almost like I was just honored to be a part of the development but it ultimately, you know, this piece like it ultimately became what it wanted to be. And then when I opened the kiln like I had no idea what to expect So my expectations were crushed. Andy, you know, my, my guide at the time, and probably forever, he was like, just just take it, give it a minute. And it was that it was that piece that then created an entire new direction of work where I'd started just loading these pieces with any type I like the salt is a big thing, but I would, you know, fire faster, I would fire hotter, I would, I would do anything I could to get the piece to just say something. And that was my artwork. And that was that was my art. And, and then to finalize that, that first question, this this style, this overall style, that's all I made was sculptures. And when Andy said, Hey, do you want to make Saki cups, I had a deep a deep disdain for production pottery, I could never imagine myself being like, you know, this little machine, just like pump, pump, pump, pump, pump, I couldn't do it, I couldn't do it. And I said, Well, if I'm going to make production work, you know, the mugs, mugs, and, and Saki cups, and whatever, I want each piece to at least have some sort of individual identity, you know, as it should. And so what I ended up creating was a process. And it was that process that gave the work, the ability to, to have its own voice. And, you know, every cup is identical, they're all one or two inches, they all got mouths and walls and feet. But look at look at the identity of humans, like we all have, every one of us has the same assets, for the most part. But once you open your mouth, once you walk, once you cook eggs, like whatever you do, like you're going to lose that. And so these pieces, these pieces are, to me this, like they're their own little entities, they're these own little people, their own little characteristics. And in that I have to celebrate what most people consider flows. I look at I see people see my work, and they go, Oh, what happened to that thing? You know, like, Did it fall? Did it break did it whatever, you know, and that's, that's a big response. From my work. And, and in reality, like, Isn't that how a lot of people look at humans, like we look at people with mental disabilities, or physical abnormalities, and, and, or awkwardness or whatever and, and we want to, we want to highlight those things and be like, that's a problem. But it's like, if we all got rid of everything that we called it an abnormality, or a disability, we would all look like the same, there would be nothing special. And so through this body of work, I've learned, you know, it's taught me to, to celebrate those those characteristics that you have that you think are flaws, because that's what makes you unique, and new and individual. And I think the work speaks for itself. Like, I've maybe never said this to anyone before, especially publicly. But I think when people see my work, you probably don't like 95% of what you look at. But then there's that one, where you're like, This is my cup, this is my cup, and it just connects with you.

Thom Pollard: 28:47

I get it, it's really good. It it's like I learned I feel like I understand the the genesis of this whole evolution of how you arrived at this and you're not you're not fully arrived, I mean, this is a process and 10 years you might be a whole different guy, a different artist and everything kind of one of the essences a part of what we're endeavoring to do in this podcast and and in these interviews is talk about these these skills and are preserving them or at least giving life to these skills that have been passed down through generations. So you you said something back kind of in the beginning of this explanation that that you and Andy started building kilns and testing a small ones and taking the electronics out of one and you know putting an air vent in it and you know, putting a flame into one side and and you and you melted kiln. So, for the person listening or watching the idea of melting a kiln, the kiln is supposed to be the thing that does the melting or at least right The other eight. So you actually over you, you got the kiln so hot that the whole thing just melted out. So how does it get too hot? And this is you're not going to expect this one. So how many times has the fire department been called on you for melting a kiln or blowing flames out the top of the kill. When me

Kevin O'Keefe: 30:21

and Andy were building kilns, we had these little octagon ifd kilns were thrown together, throw some pots in there, stick a stick a burner in there, and just melt everything. And all we cared about was the work like the kiln is a tool I'm not selling a kiln on that, you know, I don't care about killing the inside shell is heartbreak. So it can withstand the heat that and the force of elements we're putting in there. The if the outside of the kiln is IFP, so it's like, more for insulating because you could not stand next to that thing. If it was just a heartbreak, it would radiate so much heat, you would literally just, you couldn't do it like you'd have to have special suits so so the inside shell is to protect the kiln, the outside shell is to insulate the outside shells to insulate the incense. So it's a physics it's a physics game. It's just it's an act of love to come out here and to fire this thing. And I always say it's, it's probably like in to drive in a rally car. You know, those like rally cars where you're just running in circles in a mud pit, just running and everything like that's what it's like to fire this kiln.

Thom Pollard: 31:38

You're listening to my May 2023 interview with Kevin O'Keefe from his home and pottery studio in Mississippi. Tools for nomads is brought to you by top drawer. Top drawer makes durable, sustainable tools for creatives, like you who work to make the world better tools for travel for writing accessories for everyday carry. From pens to Japanese house shoes to journals, amazing photo albums finely crafted paper bags, eyewear, handkerchiefs, lighters, keychains, check them out at top choice shop.com or visit one of their dozen plus meticulously outfitted shops in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston, Berkeley, Chicago, New York and Tokyo, top two are shop.com If you stop into one of the stores, please let them know you listen to the podcast. Now back to my conversation with Kevin O'Keefe. So when you put that whatever your pot or the Saki cup or your product into the to the kiln, the process of heating it really hot hardens it and then what usually melts kind of a glaze on the outside is Is there some chemical reaction happening? Or is it big? Like what how the hell does it go from something you can squish between your fingers to, you know, something you could, you know, keep it for 100 years on a shelf and use it?

Kevin O'Keefe: 33:12

Yeah, that would be a really great question to research on Google. From some more, some more, I don't know I know what works. I know it works. I know it works in a very, very layman type term. Yes, Clay Clay is clay and glaze. So Clay as your your structure that you're building upon glaze is the finish. And at some point in history, they said all clay needs a finish. So you can fire just raw clay and have had just this raw rough piece of clay. But but at some point they said it needs a surface finish. And that could be as simple as a single material that that melts at a lower point and then it coats the surface. So Clay is primary clay and glaze are made of silica it's a silica felts are in a clay, like a ball clay. And the way I think of the way I see it is silica itself melts at 3000 degrees like and that's that's sand like sand on the beach down here, we got a lot of sand that sand. If you put it in a kiln, it will not melt, you know because you just can't get that hot. So they have to add a fluxing agent, which is like a feldspar and various flexes that they have. And they're ticularly designed to have specific melting points. So those fluxes help aid in the melting of the silica so that the silica melts into glass And then that glass, you know flows in between the, the little clay particles Be it a ball clay, which is more of a user like microscopic levels, little round balls that are just, you know, tightly matrix together and if gaps versus porcelain, which, which is a plate like it's a plate like substrate. And so you get these very tight forms. And that's why porcelain you can get, if you fire it right like you can make it translucent, you know, because those platelets will align perfect. And you know, it's just a beautiful clay. But clay and glaze plate, clay and glaze are nearly the same materials, except in clay, you have more ball clay, less silica, and less flux. And then with glaze, you have little to no ball clay, and you have a lot of silica and then a lot of flux. So it's all the same material. The kiln like I said, the kiln is the same material as the Saki cups, except the level of clay to to flux to glaze to glass is different. So that you raise that melting temperature, the melting point. So these bricks aren't going to melt. Some years ago, when we first had this kiln built, I had a met a buddy down the road, he asked that bring some pottery, we'll fill this count out, he brought stuff that he'd made like 20 years ago, 10 or 20 years ago from college. And we put like 50 of his pieces in the kiln. And they were like, Oh 15 Like the range the range of numbers that goes from odd numbers to one to two to 10. Like that direction. He is like it was like oh five clay or Oh 15 clay like it was super low clay. It turned a lava, it turned a lava in my kiln and hit every one of his cups melted into a pool of lava and just rained through the entire kiln and about killed him. I was like, like you, you'll be lucky if you ever set foot in my guild again. But we're really, really good friends. I got some really interesting work I got mugged in the lava rain into the mug filled it up. And so it was a perfect, beautiful mug. And it looked like it was just filled with coffee like this glazed coffee. Totally useless. Except for except for the expressive, expressive quality.

Thom Pollard: 37:37

That's what you get for putting his stuff on the top. You could have put him on the bottom.

Kevin O'Keefe: 37:42

Well, yeah, that's what I get for telling them that they better be sure. Like, you're like, I'm very clear. I'm very careful. Now if I let anyone in the kitchen, like I tell him like, you better make sure

Thom Pollard: 37:53

we've got the how it happens and how you got to this place and all and you have elaborated a lot on on this creative process and, and what's going on and, and you really do put your heart and soul into it a little bit. It's kind of like when people are painting if they're a painter or playing guitar or something. It's like you're you do you go into this zone? Are you? Is this? Do all outside distractions fade away? Is there do you put on symphony? Or do you put on like thrash metal or you listen to the birds? Like, what what's happening with the soul of Kevin O'Keefe and through this artistic process? Or is is there just a you in the cosmos? What what happens?

Kevin O'Keefe: 38:46

Man? That's that's a that's a very, very, very good question. So, so for me, there is some elements that I can't work with music, I love working with music. That's why I don't record much, you know, it's because I can't record and have music I guess because of copyright laws. So I just choose not to record because I really need that that you know that that flow in my ear? The rhythm. And so I think where I think one thing is that you're maybe hitting on is this idea of inspiration like where do you get that inspiration to get in and to make and I think it's less about the inspiration and more about like a bio rhythm. Like we all have this bio rhythm that that we live by. Most people like you don't ever even really notice it. But when it comes to to some really detail and and hyper timed activities like golf, racquetball tennis, pottery timing is it makes all All The Difference, and our bio, our bodies have this natural tempo. And so somedays, like you come out here to work, and you know, everything could be right. But if that bio rhythms off, like, you're just, you just can't do it, like, you can throw a pot, but you're just not in it. And you're not in that flow state that you were talking about. But then there's those magical moments where, where the timing is on the breathing is on the wheel, the movement, and, and, and you just, you just in it, and at that point, it really just comes down to knowing the material. And, and so, the clay, I say I'm a potter, so the clay is the most important element, you know, in connection to who I am and my hands as the tools. So when I start throwing, it could take literally, you know, a few hours before I get into that state, because you're just you're just kind of hashing through it getting the feel you're learning the clay. If I have a new clay body, it will easily take me 100 pounds before. Before I know, I feel I know the clay, like as a relationship. And so right now, a lot of the work you're seeing in these videos that I sent you, they're all in the biscuit and just hanging out, ready to get fired, ready to get this to go through that conversion state that goes through that conversion from clay into a hardened vitrified stone. And that's called quartz conversion. But for me that that clay that I'm using, I'm only 50 pounds in, and I'm still just struggling with it just you know, every now and again, you get these moments where you you just have that connection. But then there's others where it just fights you along the way and it's like I don't want to play I don't want to participate. Leave me alone. And of course, it's just mud, you know, it's all in my head. So that state of mind is very important. But I find that it has more to do with you know this idea of a bio rhythm. And, and for me, I have discovered a way to test it to see if I'm on time. And that technique is called Tap centering. I was taught tap centering by Peter Anderson, John Anderson, Peter Anderson son who owns he's the the next in line to the Anderson pottery here on the coast, world renowned Potter. He taught me how to tap center on a jigger where that making jigger where so that's like pie plates and dishes using the arm that just pumps them out. And then when you go to trim, you set the piece on the wheel and the wheel spinning because you're you're in production, you don't want to stop, you got to keep moving. So the wheel stood and you put the pot down, and then it's moving because you can't set it centered. And then you just start counting that movement. So the pots just rolling, rolling on the wheel, and you're just looking at it. And you're just like 1234 And then you have to pop it and you pop it just right to get it to knock a little closer to center. If that exact moment in time that it needs to be pop, it's a very rare place to be is on time as a potter. And so knowing that by rhythm or having that feeling. It's just something I don't know. I'd imagine you learn it just by doing it. You know, you practice it practice makes perfect. But for me, I did it with the Anderson's he taught me and I just I had it. I figured it out. Very important. Very, very great question. The flow state. It's very rare. I'll just say it's very rare, especially here in South Mississippi working can be very, very grueling because the heat you know this, I have an open air studio, these doors stay open. And so it'll get over 100 degrees in there. And I'm just sweating from head to toe and maybe one day I'll save up for an AC but for now like I love the natural love being the most natural that I can in this environment. And I don't want to change that which means the only thing I can do is to move out by you Andy keep saying he's gonna build me a kiln so

Thom Pollard: 44:35

Okay, well that's it then let's let's hold them to it. To see Kevin's work in person walk into any top drawer shop and you'll find his unique and one of a kind sakeI cups, incense burners and candle holders. They are exquisite. Be sure to pick several of them up and see how different and unique they are. You can visit Kevin's website at Kevin John okeefe.com Or check out his YouTube channel at Kevin John OKeefe. These links will be in the show notes as well. Thanks for visiting tools for nomads an intimate look into the lives and habits of passionate and creatively prolific people like Kevin O'Keefe. Wherever you're listening or watching, I hope you'll subscribe tools for nomads is brought to you by top drawer. A top drawer life is about loving and living intentionally, where the things we carry matter to us. They impact our productivity, our well being and even our identity. Top drawer combines the quality of craftsmanship of our grandparents generation with the drive for independence, function, and stylish sustainability. It results in a collection of tools that help you do your best work wherever you may be. Visit top choice shop.com or visit one of their dozen plus meticulously outfitted shops in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Boston Berkeley, Chicago, New York and Tokyo. Top tour shop.com Thanks for visiting. I'm Thom Pollard. See you next time on tools for nomads.