152. Beat-Less (The Devil's Chord/Fanfare for the Common Men)

"...so I can maybe understand why the Beatles look a bit chubby..."

Ben and Mark discuss two Doctor Who stories that make a virtue of the absence of The Beatles, to varying degrees of success; 2024's The Devil's Chord, and 2013's Fanfare for the Common Men.

Over the course of the discussion, the Lash Lads ponder whether the Fifth Doctor is convincing as a Beatles fan, question the inclusion of "There's Always a Twist at the End", and rifle through RTD's Desert Island Discs.

Also: The Degsestial Funmaker challenges the lads to identify two niche bits of Doctor Who related audio merch, and Mark pitches a new BBC book for babies.

You can read about the plagiarism allegations against Yesterday here.

And there's a Time magazine article about the Paul is Dead conspiracy theory here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Hello, it's episode 152 of On the Time Lash. Uh, my name is Ben.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

My name is Mark, and it's uh well, it's a Beatles special, because we're talking about the Devil's Cord, and uh we've paired that up with uh the Fifth Doctor audio. 1963 colon fanfare for the common men. Basically, they're both doctors, but the legacy of the Beatles, one more than the other, I would argue.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

But in both cases, how do you how do you tell that story uh uh as as cheaply as possible in terms of rights purchasing?

SPEAKER_03 1:06

Indeed, indeed.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

I mean I'll get to it now, I'll get to it now. I just think the funniest thing is right at the end of Fanfit for the Common Men, the Beatles history put all back in place again, the Beatles finally take to the stage, and uh the Doctor goes, Oh my god, here they come! And then there's like a like a familiar enough guitar twang, and then it then it zooms into the Peter Howell arrangement of the Doctor Who theme, and there's not even a sense that we're getting to understand the Beatles.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Which is which is a good gag. It's a good gag, because you know it is, it's very funny. Um yeah, but yes, we'll get into that. I think the sort of rights issues, and whether or not there are right, like whether or not anybody actually checked this, or if they just assumed. Um, because Dylan Reese brings up a good point in uh List of Correspondence. But before all that, like what what what like what are the Beatles to you, Ben? Like, because you know they're like a massive cultural touchstone for not just music but kind of social history and and politics, and the influence spreads sort of far and wide.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Yeah, oh this is a good start, yes, actually. That's uh that's a great thing to talk about. Um I so I love the Beatles, okay. Uh, but I love the Beatles. I don't I wouldn't say that I am uh you know obsessive in the way that I am about Doctor Who Star Trek, but you say the Beatles, it there's uh uh a sense, a vibe, uh, an atmosphere, something. Uh do they do they embody the very idea of nostalgia? When everyone's talking about Britain used to be great, yada yada, what uh what they mean is the Beatles and that kind of strange idea, the 60s that never actually happened apart from those four guys.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

So I what I always find fascinating, and I've always kind of wanted to to write something about it, but I've never quite it it's such a big concept that it's har hard to find a way in. But Britain in 1962-63, it's the Beatles' first album, it's J it's their first James Bond film. Those are kind of two sort of cultural powerhouses in sort of British the British popular culture and the popular imagination. John Higgs has written a very good book about this, it's kind of tracing the influence of Bond and the Beatles and how those two things kind of interact with sort of British culture from sort of '62 to 20. I think sort of whenever No Time to Die came out, basically, so up to then. Um so obviously kind of then pulls in the sort of Beatles' their solo work, but then also kind of how they're remembered and sort of like other releases that kind of came out after they broke up. Um and it's a really interesting book because like the ide that the his central thesis is that Bond sort of represents the establishment, and obviously the Beatles are sort of their counterculture, and how those kind of two things, as sort of Britain goes through the 60s into the 80s, um, how how that kind of influenced things, but then you get Doctor Who in '63, and that's kind of it's just much smaller thing for all everybody says about you know Dalek Mania. Nobody went along to Doctor Who and the Daleks in 1965 and couldn't hear anything for all the screaming girls every time the Daleks were on stage. That didn't happen. Okay. Yes, kids were running up and down the playgrounds playing Daleks, they were had the little Dalek play suits, and there was little Dalek um toys, um, sort of playwright things outside the shops, but it was never quite, I think, the the level of of kind of impact uh that the Beatles had. But I think what I always find really interesting about the Beatles is that and Ron Howard made a really good documentary about this, was eight days a week, I think, which was about the kind of the tour, the life of kind of the Beatles on tour, and kind of when that ends, which I fair it's just before they go off and write Sgt. Pepper, I can't remember what year that was, um, but they just kind of they they won't play live anymore, they won't tour, and it becomes more about the artistic process and musical process, and you don't often get that with with bands that are that popular, and that I I don't want to populist isn't the word, but there is a kind of that early Beatles where they're playing like old sort of rock rock and roll songs and then their own work, and they're very kind of like they're cheeky northern lads, and they're all quite handsome and the the girls love them to go into stuff stuff as as sort of strange as as they get to go in. That very rarely happens, like one direction didn't go off and make like a weird sort of avant-garde album, you know, after after they kind of hit a certain point. It just it doesn't quite happen. So I've always found that really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

A cinema like a cinema film where uh you know, like a hard day's night where they've got Wilfred Bramble from Steptown Sun. There's not like it's not one direction and hardlow handling, but yeah, the films as well.

SPEAKER_03 6:08

That's a that's another kind of key thing, and particularly when we come to talk about fanfare for the common men. Like I've got a real sense of not so much a hard day's night, although maybe a little bit of that, but uh but really help, you know, in which Ringo is the kind of star of the show, and there's all this mad shit happening around Ringo Star. Um I really was reminded of that listening to Fanfare for the Common Men.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

But yes, and uh the the yellow submarine with the because of course yellow submarine the Beatles provide the soundtrack, but they're not the voices in the film. So what you get is the just incredible impersonations, which is we'll get we'll get to the voices, the Liverpoollian voice.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Well they were gonna do a remake of that, which I think it was Robert Zemeckis who's gonna do a remake of it with uh I want to say Peter Serafinovich playing all four of them, but that's not true. Um I feel like it was maybe some other I feel like it was Jason's Jason Schwartzmann and Paul Rudd, which also which can't be right, but also sounds right. Um but anyway. So yeah, I mean I think for me, like I love the Beatles, but I'm not encyclopedic on it in any way, but I find them so interesting. And like I'm always drawn to like there's so many documentaries about them, um, so many books written about them and things. So like I'm always in I'm always kind of drawn to them, but also I don't know enough about I wouldn't like I don't know enough about them to say, oh, I'm a Beatles fan. Because I think Beatles fans They know their shit, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Like more so I would say than Star Trek and Doctor Who fans. Like they go.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

I uh when um when the new set the new anthology set uh was released, I was watching a couple of videos of people like like Beatles fans, like dedicated Beatles YouTube channels really pulling apart the like the sound, like how the sound transfer from vinyl to CD, to these like updated digital downloads, uh the you know what what take is being released from the recording section and comparing it to the other takes that are that are on rot record on on other releases. Um the minutiae like the minutiae, they know it's uh you know it's more in depth than this podcast ever gets by articles and subjects.

SPEAKER_03 8:28

And it's definitely way more depth than this podcast is gonna get about the Beatles as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Uh so but the Beatles feels like it's everybody's. I think that's the key here.

SPEAKER_03 8:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

Uh it is definitely a hit of nostalgia, even though two of them are alive. You know, it'll be interesting to see what these uh this four-movie event growing up about each of the Beatles is gonna be like. Um, you know, like they're obviously it's all it's very uh carefully curated, the the Beatles memory, Beatles merchandising. It feels new and it feels nostalgia all at the same time. It feels like it belongs to everyone. It feels like they are one of the very few, few things that if you genuinely are proud of Britain, you can safely present them as an option. Yes. Without it uh offending anyone or ticking anybody off. And there is just something so appealing still about the music. That's why they're as timeless as they are.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

So with that, let's do the stats uh for The Devil's Chord. Uh The Devil's Chord was written by Russell T. Davis and directed by Ben Chessel. Uh, it was originally broadcast on the 11th of May 2024. It was uh broadcast, sorry, it was um obviously they were given midnight releases on BBC iPlayer um with the actual episode when it went out on television being watched overnight by 2.4 million people, which was 200,000 people less than the preceding episode. Um they'd be like, fuck this, can't do any more of that. Uh consolidated, it was 3.9 million viewers for that week, and after a month it was 5.7 million viewers uh as watchers. Uh in terms of review, it's got uh Radio Times three stars, evening standard four stars, total film four stars, vulture four stars, the times four stars. So generally it seems to be you know Rotten Tomatoes Tomatoometer is 92%, but the average score uh is eight out of eight point one out of ten. Okay. Well liked, I would say. Yeah. I think this is it'd be interesting to see what the listener correspondence is, but this is a very successful episode for me.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

And and for me, I think I gave it eight out of ten on What Culture, I think. Because I was really taken with it when it first went out. Um but we'll get to that in a second. We've had we've had I'm I was trying to think, you know, we've had our uh we've had our main, now it's time for a dessert, you know. This sort of you know, the roughage of the statistics followed by the delicious dessert. So it's time for Degsy's What is it game? So every episode the Degs SO Funmaker gives us some increasingly niche items of Doctor merchandise.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Fucking not half.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

Not half for Ben and I to guess in twenty questions. The topic for this round, appropriately enough for the episodes that we're talking about, is audio. Alrighty then, so audio, so that could be anything. It could be music, that could be like a soundtrack collection, it could be uh audio play.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

What format, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

Yeah, god, right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Okay, 20 questions, the floor is yours, Markford.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

Is it an audiobook? Let's just let's just narrow down the is it an audiobook?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

No, it is not an audiobook. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:44

Is it a soundtrack collection?

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Uh no, it is not.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Is it available on vinyl?

SPEAKER_01 12:52

It is.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Right, okay. Now this is where I'm gonna be smart. Is it so it's not right, okay, that's interesting. So it's not a soundtrack collection.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

Not a soundtrack.

SPEAKER_03 13:02

So it can't be any of those, it can't be any of those record store day releases of like the soundtrack for the moon base. Okay, so it's not those. Right, so in which case I'm gonna ask here, is it new series or is it can't do an or is it uh a new series item?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

No.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Oh, there's like a Doctor Who sound effects album or something, isn't there? Is it is it something like that?

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Not that no.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

Is it an audio play?

SPEAKER_01 13:29

No.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

Is it a piece of music released by an actor in Doctor Who?

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Broadly, no, it's not. But reassess what you asked. Maybe split it into two.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Is it a single? Like a song.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

It's not a song, no.

SPEAKER_03 13:47

Is John Park to be on the front of it?

SPEAKER_01 13:50

No.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Okay, so it's not songs for Vulgar Boatman, but is it an album?

SPEAKER_01 13:54

It is an album, yes.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

Okay. Is it by a Doctor Who actor?

SPEAKER_01 13:59

No.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Is it like is it an official Doctor Who release or is it No. Okay. Is it Jeff Love's uh fucking sci-fi themes vinyl?

SPEAKER_02 14:09

No.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

God damn it, I wish it was.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Five more questions.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

But does Doctor Who feature on the cover of it?

SPEAKER_01 14:14

No.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

Eh? What's the connection?

SPEAKER_01 14:19

So what is what do you mean, in terms of imagery? In terms of name?

SPEAKER_03 14:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Imagery.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

No. We'll take that as the same question.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

Is it by is it by like some somebody from the BBC radiophonic workshop?

SPEAKER_01 14:34

I don't know that. I don't think so. I'm gonna say no.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

So it's Doctor Learned Arms from Brian Hodson, that's fine. So how the fuck is it connected to Doctor Who? If it's not a radiophonic workshop, if it's not an actor, if it's not got a picture of Doctor Who on the front of it. Is it like a homage? Like I you know, like mankind Tombaker. The way it was human leader, the Tom Baker, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

It's not a homar.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

Is it mankind's fucking Doctor Who theme tune? No, it's not, no. Okay. Then I'm out of questions. What is it?

SPEAKER_01 15:10

No, you got one more question.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

Have I? Oh, I don't know. Is it the fucking twenty greatest television sci-fi theme tunes of all time album?

SPEAKER_01 15:20

That's 20 questions. No, it's not. It is uh the uh album. It is the album Exterminate 40 Years Too Late by the punk band The Daleks Okay. Wow, which uh I have never been exposed to this information at all. The message from Derek is I doubt Mark has ever heard of this punk band, but you never know. He's just fucking with us. He's just fucking with us. So to say that I am terrified for my guess because I if it's equally as esoteric, okay. What have I got? Okay, so it's audio again. It's audio again, baby. Okay, right. Okay, so let's think formats. So as presented to you, is it uh is it on vinyl?

SPEAKER_04 16:28

No.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Uh is it on uh cassette tape? Yes, it is on cassette tape, okay. So uh it's probably redundant to say is it new era or classic error? Because who's releasing new Doctor Who stuff on cassette? Um okay, so in which case then is it um is it uh a soundtrack? Is it a Doctor Who story on tape? No, no. Is it music?

SPEAKER_03 17:00

Yes, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Is it is it is it uh Doctor Who related music as in it's music from the show? Yes, it is music, okay. So I guess that's five questions. Uh music from the show. It's on a cassette. Uh is it is the cover black with the uh Doctor Who Diamond logo on it?

SPEAKER_03 17:25

No, there's no diamond there's no diamond logo.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Okay, alright, okay. Interesting. Okay, so it's uh is it like a Kef McCulloch time type of release?

SPEAKER_04 17:37

No, actually. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Well, actually I'll tell you what, so yeah, is it is it is it is it like uh you know a composer of Doctor Who like single release?

SPEAKER_03 17:48

No, I wouldn't I wouldn't have said so.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Is it completely music?

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Uh as far as I can see here, yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

As in there's no kind of fiction or kind of like it's all it's all just songs. Okay, it's just the music. Is it an official release? In as far I guess as these things were. Um okay. Uh is it from the eighties?

SPEAKER_03 18:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Is it actually from the episodes or is it like some Okay, is it like a is it is it a reinter is it like a like a band or an orchestra or something reinterpreting the music?

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Uh no, I wouldn't say so.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

Is it is it like a combination of all like the 80s eras?

SPEAKER_03 18:32

Yes and Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Uh yes, and and okay. Is it like just the Doctor Who theme tune?

SPEAKER_03 18:43

Uh um that's not what it's called.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

It's not what it's called, but that is what it is, okay. Is it is it like a is the single release of like the Doctor Who theme tune by Peter Howell?

SPEAKER_04 18:56

No.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

No. Okay, well I'm saying from the eighties, but but is it eighties representative as in is it like the 70s theme but released in the eighties?

SPEAKER_03 19:06

No, it's not that it's not that. It's just not the theme tune that. Oh, it's re-re repackaged or something.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

It's not the theme tune, okay. Is it an actor from Doctor Who singing? Oh no.

SPEAKER_04 19:19

No, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

No. Is there any singing?

SPEAKER_03 19:23

I'm gonna say just by looking at what it is, no.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

Is it this is it the single the the Doctoring the Tardis seen thing true by the Time Lords?

SPEAKER_04 19:34

No.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

No. Okay, but like this is my last question. Oh my god, I feel like I've thrown this away. Oh shit, okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Um it's a bit of a tricky bastard of an item.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

Uh it's easier than the fucking dialek's okay, but it's still a tricky bastard of an item.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Uh is it the soundtrack of the leisure hive or something like that?

SPEAKER_03 19:56

Not explicitly.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

No, okay. And then uh tell me. That's between questions.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

Okay. Um it is Doctor Who, the music, number two. So volume two of So basically just a soundtrack collection. It's got uh Hartnell, Troughton, Perkwee Baker, Davison Baker. So at some point in sort of 85-86.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Right, yeah, I'm looking at that. Okay, so yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

So I think I was right to guess that there's no single who the music of Last Chance from BBC Cassettes.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Yeah, okay. So listen, I mean, I that's that's exactly what I thought it would be without knowing that's what that was.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

It's wit is when you went, is is it possibly I was if if he goes for just like is it Doctor Who the music? I would have gone, yes, like that.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Okay. That's something uh that's something I think that it typifies this game is that I knew that was a thing. I had no idea that that was a thing.

SPEAKER_04 21:10

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

You know, that's why we play it, that's why we love it. Because that is something is it I've gone from within what two minutes, not knowing what that is, to much is it on eBay, I want that. Like that's the that's the beauty of this game. Anyway, neither of us won on that occasion. So congratulations.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Well, so so yes, so you and I I think were both in agreement that it's quite good, this. I mean, obviously, stay tuned to find out exactly how much. Um but let's see what the listeners think, because I was quite surprised by the response, the responses that we got. So um first up, it's Andrew Blair who says the devil's chord gets plus points for trying to make a weird idea work, but ultimately, despite some great scenes, it only has 20 minutes of story. And the Bad Beatles song is better than the song and dance number at the end. Lucy McCall says, I just I just liked it. It left me with an overwhelming sense of gloom. Partly because of the part where we're told that the world will go to hell without music. Looks at the news headlines. We're already there, I think, is the implication from Lucy. Um, and partly because I didn't like any of the music in it, apart from the little bit of Clair Deloon. Ruby's tune, which I know other people find moving, and this is all my own personal opinion, but I find it boring and shallow. I like pop music. I like the Beatles, and the final victory should have been magnificent and thrilling. Instead, it was just Plonk's chords and into a terrible song. I'd rather have had Maestro go up against Mrs. Mills. She would have had Maestro for breakfast. I mean, I would argue a celebrity historical with Mrs. Mills is far more up Russell T. Davis's street than a celebrity historical with the Beatles. Do you know?

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Well, we've got Shirley Ballast at the end, didn't we?

SPEAKER_03 22:59

True. Uh Pete Lambert says features what I believe to be the worst song ever sung, and I don't even mean the unfunny dog one. I say that with decades of Eurovision immersion having usually toughened me up in such matters. If I was immortal, I still can't imagine devoting 50 minutes of eternity to re-watching this. Damning.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Oh, okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

Uh Daniel Knight. The Devil's Chord has Jinx Monsoon giving a performance that reminds me of the child catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. I suspect as a kid I'd have found Maestro terrifying, and probably kids watching would have done so too. But the song at the end had me thinking, What the heck? It's a polite he's a polite man, Daniel Knight. Uh Rob off of the Doctor Who show uh says, I still can't get over the way that we had the Beatles. I needed the song to finish, but gosh, Beatles songs are expensive to license, so what do we do? The answer was to finish Ferris Bueller style with Twist and Shout, not a Beatles song on their first LP being recorded in the app.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

Yeah, that would be a way around it, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 23:58

I mean the They did loads of covers in those early days that are probably all now public domain that you could get away with doing. Anyway, sorry. And it's fun, it all fitted. I mean, could you imagine the band belting out the song with the guest cast joining in and just having some fun with it? I can't keep the smile off my face thinking about how that would have played out. And also felt more in universe than that bloody awful song and dance routine that they used. Uh Dylan Reese, no, Dylan Reese, obviously, not a fan of the RTD 2 era, so buckle up. Uh oh, sorry. This is a lot of fun. Can't be that Dylan Reese. Uh Jinx is easily the best villain of the era, and there are a lot of great ideas and cool visuals. Ruined by the dreadful song lyrics at the end, and I can't help but think the Beatles themselves are underused. Also, did anyone actually ask about licensing the Beatles music? It feels like RTD just assumed they couldn't get it. Maybe the company who made Get Back could have helped out there. Well indeed. You know, they're on the same streaming service. Paul McAvoy, I think to yeah, to close us out, um, says the Devil's Core just doesn't work. It's a cool concept and an idea that you'd see in a book or an eighth stop or audio, but on screen here it just sort of falls apart. Jinx Monsoon is insufferable. Hard disagree. Um you want a good villain like this to chew the scenery a bit, but the performance is far too much. The thing is, with the common men, is at least being a fictional creation, um, you've got carte blanche to do whatever you want with the Beatles adjacent group and make up your own music and lore. But doing a Beatles episode that doesn't really have the Beatles in it and doesn't have any Beatles music in it begs the question of why the fuck is this a story about the Beatles? Well, I would flip that around and say, Well why put the Beatles in a song in a story that isn't really about the because it's not really about the Beatles, is it? It's about music in general, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

Um what I find most unforgivable about the whole thing is the lack of basic research that went into it. The crux of the finale is based on Paul and John reading musical notation, which they couldn't, but it's alright. Don't think about it, just watch the dancing and forget. There's always a twist at the end, right? Lol lol. So yeah, not a lot of not a lot of love. It's interesting what Paul says about the the research because I think I think it was J.R. Southall that put forward this theory. But remember when um RTD was talking about Stephen bringing back Stephen Moffitt, and he said, Yeah, you know, I reached out to Chris Chibnol, he was like the first person I called um to get him to fight an episode. And J.R. was like, I wonder if it was this because obviously he's from Liverpool, I think he is a bit of a Beatles fan, Chris Chibnel. Um like I wonder if this was kind of earmarked for him at some point to actually be a bit more of a celebrity historical about the Beatles. But who knows? Who knows? We'll never know. Um because yeah, it's um yeah, they're not in it very much.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

No, they're not. They're they're yeah, okay, that's interesting. I was not prepared for and I'm not saying that none of it is valid at all. There's some incredibly interesting points there brought up in the in the listener correspondence. Thank you for everyone uh who sent in there. Uh oh, interesting. That's kind of knocked me a bit to the side where uh uh in terms of approach. Um no, they're not in it all that much. Um it's not really about the beta. Okay, so the the impetus for this was RTD, I think, asked somebody just offhand. I think this is I think this story is recounted in one of the kind of you know, whatever Doctor Who confidentialists called in this era, Doctor Who fucking were behind you.

SPEAKER_05 27:45

Yeah, Doctor Who were behind you.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Um and I think he just said to somebody, what would you do if you had a time machine? And he was taken aback when somebody, rather than saying, Oh, I'd go and visit um the the you know the opening of some they just said I'd go and see the Beatles recording.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Oh, yeah, was it not like it was a young person as well? And his point was that he was really surprised that like you know, somebody that wasn't born anywhere near like that kind of cultural influence was still still we'd want to go and see the Beatles. Um and maybe that maybe that original thought is why the Beatles maybe don't come across like yeah, you know what I mean? Like I feel like Russell T. Davis isn't necessarily the biggest fan.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

Well, I mean I think I think the whole concept of what uh Maestro is is interesting. We'll get we'll get into that in a in a second. Um but Dylan's point is interesting. Did anyone actually check how expensive it would be? Like just one song, but then having said that, if they couldn't afford a fucking sugar babes song with all this Disney money floating about, how would they gonna how are they gonna afford just one Beatles song? Because you only need one at the end, you don't need to like pepper it. Like there's a lot of comedy mileage to be gotten out of almost getting to a Beatles song. Um so that's got but yeah, he seems to have just decided it's it's we you can't do it. There's gotta be there's gotta be the story has to be about an absence. If you want to do the Beatles and you want to be able to afford making it, it's gotta be about the absence of the music. Um and that's and that's why you get all these terrible songs. What they don't really dive into, I think, is how the complete lack of I mean like the beat- the keep people the actors playing the Beatles don't really look like the Beatles. I mean they've got the wigs, they've got the glasses, or the or sound like that. I can kind of understand the sound, you know.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

Oh, I mean when Yeah, but when they come back at the end, it even that little bit doesn't really sound like the Beatles.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Yeah. There's a lot to talk about in terms of how if the world wasn't the same wherein that the Beatles were young and and built up to being the Beatles, would the similar circumstances ever be the you know, I c I don't know what I'm talking. My comparison to this, sorry, is the film The Invention of Lying. Oh Ricky Javes and stuff where the invention of lying, the world looks exactly the same as it does now. Just people are a bit more candid about everything. But you think about what the actual act of lying is and how it builds relationships or breaks them down, how it creates things or or tears those things down. If people were physically unable to lie, the world would look so different. It just probably would not be a producible film. And it's the same with this music is so different, the approach to it, the cultural, you know, like if music was shit from like the 40s, what happened to Elvis? If there was no Elvis, there wouldn't have been any Beatles. There wouldn't be nothing.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

Yes, that's a really good point. That is a really good point because you know, Elvis, Chuck Berry, all these guys that came before the bait.

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Little Richard, yeah, Buddy Holly, all of these people, it wouldn't have happened, there wouldn't have been any Beatles. So I can kind of understand why the Beatles look a wee bit fat or uh you know a wee bit odd. Um because they just physically wouldn't have had the same lives bringing them up. Um but at the same time, this whole situation would never have happened in the first place.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

This is the the problem, I suppose, with the central setup. So so Maestro's taking music out of the world in 1925. So at some point after 1925, there stopped being waltzes and ballads and and things like that. But music still exists, it's just shit. Because there's no heart, there's no soul to it, because people are too frightened. Is that the implication?

SPEAKER_01 32:03

There's this kind of baseline Yeah, I mean it seems to have a physically torturous uh, you know, is it June Hudson gets killed?

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Yeah, there's like a there's there's also like a there's almost like a kind of inherent race memory fear of music. So whenever the doctor kind of brings it up or whenever people hear music, it's it's it feels wrong and it feels you know that they they shouldn't they shouldn't be enjoying it. And that's an interesting thing to pla to play with. But also I don't really understand how that in those circumstances John, Paul, George and Rinkel still get together to in the same situation.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

It's just yeah, it's all of it is although you know there is something interesting as well about you know um Maestro is some sort of embodiment of music and feeds the overtly they say uh feeds off unsung songs, I guess like the emotion in the heart and the lyricism. But there is still a degree of musicality in the world because even like a small shit amount is still better than having none, but it's still like kind of sustain it's it's scraps that sustain the cultural heart of the population enough for them to go to nuclear war with each other, which was the ultimate plan for Maestro.

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Yeah, which which is an interesting idea, that kind of idea of the I forgot I forgot to write it down. But basically it's sort of the the music of just nature and and sound Aeolian tones, I think it was. That's an interesting concept.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Which is just the the eerie whistling of a nuclear window.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Yeah, and then you get an art she gets enough power so she can then take the music of the spheres, which is you know the music that the whole universe plays and all that kind of thing. Um So yeah, I mean it's it's a it's a big concept, and I think you he's using the Beatles just to illustrate that concept.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Yeah, like why why are the Beatles in it? Because they are the most famous human embodiment of music that this generation, these couple of generations, would understand. So that's why they're in it.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

I kind of predicted that going in because I remember it wasn't like you know, like when they got chat went like Doctor Who's gonna meet Charles Dickens, you know, they were all in the press. Yeah. They were kind of pushing Jinx Monsoon from RuPaul's Drag Race as the big star, not the fact that it's Doctor Who meets the Beatles. That was kind of like a little little extra, you know. Yeah. Um and fair enough, because um so um yeah, I mean Jinx Monsoon, I knew her from watching Drag Race, and so when I kind of heard they were casting her in Doctor Who, I was like, that's a very John Nathan ternary kind of let's get a big camp villain back in Doctor Who, and I was up for it. Like I thought, man, yeah, that's like that's what we've been missing for a while. We've had a lot of kind of quite serious villains or quite sort of campy, but in that kind of like sort of slightly Anthony Ainley, you know, like louche, but this is obviously full-on not so performance. And I I really like it. I don't and it probably is too much for some people, but it felt like such a shot in the arm, especially like coming minutes after watching Space Babies, where it's what a bogey monster, and the real the real monster is neglect, you know. It felt it felt kind of good to have to have something so out there, and there's such great visual moments as well to sell um Maestro as a villain, and a kind of high concept villain as well, like sort of creeping out of the the piano like they're in a Sam Raimi film, and all the kind of stuff of like putting the doctor inside a snare drum is a snare drum, yes, and then the face kind of coming through the drum skin, like all that kind of stuff. I think it really works, and it really felt like I I feel like in the chat we were having on that night, I feel like a lot of the people that were like that was fucking shit about space babies were a bit more like, oh hang on. This is a bit more interesting, this is a bit more this feels fresh and and new, and crucially doesn't feel like stuff Russell T. Davis has done before.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Okay, so this I mean uh last week or last episode, I think I uh it was very verbal recounting how I had a crisis of faith when it came to Doctor Who and my whole life associating with it.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Um after it calmed down and maybe I think I remember I remember saying to you, yeah, look, it's okay. Watch this. The next one's pretty good. Like, what watch that and and it's it's not a complete bust, it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Which is the one like in pre-publicity, yeah. I was really looking forward to and when I watched it, I was like, Oh, thank god, okay, right. That first thing was just a fucking aberration. This is because I liked it as a story, I liked it uh also the way the continual breaking of the fourth wall, like whether you liked it or not, and whether it went anywhere or not, crucially now with Hindsight, the idea that there was this constant fourth wall breaking in terms of in terms of production, that seemed very kind of dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

Yeah, it was like Doctor Who knows it's a TV show now, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

And I enjoyed that building up to I mean eventually it didn't build up to fucking anything at all, but like you know, like my show playing in the Doctor Who theme tune, it playing out as a as a record in the jukebox on the TARDIS. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:46

Um I thought that was not I thought that was non-diegetic as well, you know, as if the doctor always hears Murray Gold's score while he's running around.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Like that kind of stuff. I mean, I can see why it would irritate, but at the time I was like, okay, this this does slowly feel like we're gonna get something a bit more dangerous for the doctor. Like it's not just gonna be week on week, there's gonna be you know, the TARDIS Lands and Adventurers had very little in the way of consequence in terms of a story arc, and then they disappear into next week. This one felt like okay, there's something something like you know, something you like about space babies, and I did, at least I did like that first scene where the stepping on the butterfly meant there was like uh an an instant an instant consequence. Yes, so I was like, okay, more of the same here, this is good.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

And we get that pyramids of now the we get the pyramids of Mars thing again, um which looks amazing, like I'd forgotten how much like we talk about the Disney money, where's the Disney money? You know, Phil Mitchell in his Mickey Mouse here's gone, where's my money? We we you know, all of that kind of stuff, but I think it's on show here. I think um it feels I mean it is just it is just the Abbey Road Studios and a couple of sets, but I think in terms of the visuals, um I do think the money's kind of on show, like that kind of blasted Armageddon London that they step out into. It's not that model shot that the Doctor and Sarah just look at on the view screen, it's you know, it's properly uh well, not a living breathing world, but you know what I mean. It's tangible, yeah. You know, you we can see the Doctor and Ruby step out onto it. Now, what's interesting is Um There's a theory in fandom that um season one plays better if you put ro if you swap rogue and the devil's cords, so you have the devil's cords just before Empire of Death. And I was like, oh that's interesting, and I had that in mind while I was watching it this time around, and it feels as if that was the plan, just because the way it kind of there's so much stuff in here, like the TARDIS groaning, you know, like all of it setting up the finale, which would then I guess be next week if that's what you wanted to do. But also there's weird little script moments like when they go into the TARS-oh, how long's it been for you now? Six months? Whereas we literally like two minutes earlier, well, ten minutes earlier or whatever, it was Christmas Day. So oh, so they've been travelling, okay. So they've been travelling around for six months together, but she's never been back in time or visited an alien planet in all of that six months. So wait, that doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Yeah, so the uh Rogue and Devil's Chord were both directed by Ben Chessel and both in the same production plot.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

So yeah, you can kind of see you know, I I think also emotionally as well, the doctor running off and being scared.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

And her saying you never do this.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yeah, well, so she says you never do this. It would have more impact as well if we had never seen the doctor do this.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

Yeah, I just I think it is weird. It it it feels like they pulled this one forward because this is the big one to kind of get eyes on the show.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Yes exactly. Well, yes, it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Because also these are the the two that have the big guest stars. So I I wouldn't be surprised if they give Ben Chessel these two episodes as both potential episode twos. Because one's got Jonathan Groff off of Mindhunter and Glee and Hamilton, uh, and the other one's got Jinx Monsoon off of Drag Race and Broadway, um, and you go right, okay. Well, which one of these episodes is the bigger hitter? And it's obviously the Devil's Chord because the visuals are are impressive. You've also got the Beatles in it, it's Eurovision night when it goes out as well, so there's the kind of music theme. Um, so all of that kind of works, but then the problem you then have is there's a lot of kind of weird little things. And do you remember Russell T. Davis trying to fucking explain this in some interview with SFX or something? And he said, Oh no, it wasn't really six months. I just kind of threw that in there as a reference to Pyramids of Mars. It's like, fuck off, mate. No, you didn't. Just say, just say it wasn't meant to, we just swapped the order around and we forgot to fucking cut that line out in the edit. Because also there's like I feel like there's a few little bits and pieces in here that like what we were talking about with the the implication the the sort of consequences of music being taken out in 1925 and how the Beatles still become a band. I feel like if Russell T. Davis had a script editor who actually gave notes, or if Russell T. Davis took notes, I think a lot of that stuff would have been ironed out.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Yeah, well, because there's they talk about Susan as well, which becomes she suddenly Ruby is an expert on Susan in uh The Legend of Ruby Sunday, which if it was the next episode, you know.

SPEAKER_03 43:09

Yeah, yes, exactly, yeah, yeah. And that all sets that up as well. Like so it does feel like um it feels that this was supposed to be episode seven no six. Six. And it's not, and that's fine. It's it's you know, I I it's only if you kind of really properly look closely at a lot of the stuff that's going on that you kind of go, actually this works way better as a setup for the finale. Because also rogue makes more sense in the second episode because you've got all that stuff of the doctor immediately thinking Ruby's dead in that place in the series when it's episode six. You've seen him and her go through shit. You've seen her almost die in boom, and she survives that. And so, like, it seems very odd that he would just immediately jump to that conclusion and not think she's worked out another plan. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

So like there's there's interesting kind of bits and pieces that I think Yeah, the palpable excitement of b the you know the Bridgetton jokes. Yes. Feel a bit more in keeping with somebody who's having their first trip back in time, you know. Yeah, it's a good theory. I do subscribe to it. I was uh tempted to re-watch the series in that order to see how it felt. I mean, obviously we can't really we're doing it kind of correctly for the podcast. I mean, also I th they will never admit it, but I do wonder if the production were like, ugh, space babies, oh, that's gonna have consequences.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Yeah, I wonder if Disney or somebody said that. It's just like, is this the best episode to follow space babies with?

SPEAKER_01 44:40

Is this, you know, do we not need something about people are gonna hate space babies. Also, oh, what's the next episode about gay doctor? Okay, yeah, let's maybe move, let's put that a little later in the scene. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, but uh rogue toots some heat, and I think more conservative voices thought, let's give them the old you know, 1960s Carnaby Street razzle dazzle.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

So I listened to Russell T. Davis's um Desert Island discs to get like a I guess like a bass line of Russell T. Davis's musical tastes. His first choice is a song from Rock Follies, the uh the drama about the girl group with Rula Lenska from the 1970s.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Yeah, yeah, my we used to watch that.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

That sets the tone. Um and then there's a it's basically all stuff that has a connection to him, and obviously that's what Desert Island Discs is in a way, but it's stuff like Song for Ten by Neil Hannan and Murray Gold. Also a perfect example of the fact that Murray Gold can write a good song. I was gonna bring this up on you. Yeah, uh, but we'll get to that in a second. Um so it's that it's uh it's a there's a big Leonard Bernstein requiem or something that he performed at the University of Glamorgan. There's a dance track that is in Queer as Folk and he's playing when he met his husband. So at least there's like a little bit of you know but none of it feels like this is stuff he listens to. It's all stuff that is just tied to his work, and I feel like Rusty Davis as a um he is a workaholic. I feel like, you know, he is he puts a lot of himself into his work. I think there's one Kate Bush song that feels like the one thing that like that's actually something for him, you know. He's a Kate Bush fan. Uh but the rest of it is all kind of tied into shows he's worked on or show TV shows or work that's influenced him. Um and I don't get a sense of somebody who is all that interested in music from listening to it. It's a great interview with Lauren Laverne, but it's it's in terms of the music, it's not yes, it's not that interesting.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Yeah, that's interesting because I I think his I think his take on the on music in this is great, it was really touching. One of the the moments I really, really loved about this is when the doctor is trying to figure out that that sequence of music to banish maestro, he gets it right, but because he's done it, and this is the way I'm reading it, because he's done it in a very definitive, clinical, and purposeful way, which is to banish maestro. Yeah, uh, it doesn't work. What makes it actually work is that music is something that you're the the message I I'm reading into it is that music is something either the creation of it, the listening to of it, is to be done uh as means of connection to people, and that's why it works when John and Paul do it at the end. That's when you get that great justification for it being the Beatles, because not only are the Beatles a very influential band, what is the greatest kind of musical friendship? They had their ups, they had their downs, certainly, but you know how we remember Paul McCartney and uh John Lennon is as a productive friendship connection, and they play it at the end, and that's a and for that for that to be the answer to be the resolution of the plot shows that he's at least writing it in the idea that the analytics of music don't matter as much as the pure bringing togetherness and joy of music.

SPEAKER_03 48:40

It's interesting that also in that there's at Allen Discs he says uh he talks about doing an English degree at Oxford, and he's like, I w I really enjoyed learning about the novel, um, but then it was like, you know, stuff about poetry, and Lauren Leverne's like, Oh, you're not interested in poetry? He's like, No, not at all, frankly. And I'm like, and that's interesting, because actually I think his take on and I wonder if that comes from does he not like does he not have an interest in poetry or does he not have an interest in analysing poetry? Which ties into the sort of theme of this. So actually, you know, it's that idea, it's that idea of expression and the idea that the world dies because we don't have the means to express ourselves. Um and actually, arguably, therefore, it's not actually about music, it's about um just freedom of expression, which it is something that in certain certain uh groups at the moment is is kind of under attack. Um so maybe there's there's actually it's a wider story about expression and individuality, as much as it is about kind of music and creativity and and all that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. I I can I can relate to them. I couldn't give a fuck about poetry, but I love poets. Like I love certain poets and their work.

SPEAKER_03 50:06

Yeah, I'm I'm a big fan of Norman McCag. You know, Norman McCain.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Love Norman McCain. Yeah, the Edinburgh Poet.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

And it's it's just it's so evocative of a time and a place, and you you just you you read those poems and you're in those pubs or or those hills you know, you know, that he's writing about. But it won't surprise listeners to know that that you and I are big fans of a poet that loves a pub.

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Yeah, but yeah, Norman Norman McCade, Norman McKay, Philip Larkin, um to a certain degree John Betchman. I love these, but I'm analysing how they did it, I love what they did. So I I get that maybe that's Russell T. Davis's approach to music as well. I mean that's that's definitely what he's saying at the end. It's the Doctor needs it to work uh out of necessity, out of analytics. Uh the Beatles just want it to work out of freedom and association, you know, and that's why it does. Which is good because it's the the note is the note at the start of a hard day's night, isn't it? I mean that's what it is. Instead of the guitar twang, it's done this piano, that's the note. I think at any rate, that's what it's supposed to be. So they they do get the the the I don't want to say the genius of this, but at the moment it most matters, they get a very identifiable Beatles cord in there.

SPEAKER_03 51:24

Like, yeah. So I suppose the one last thing to talk about in on the subject of poetry um and analysis is there's always a twist at the end, um, which I think defies analysis um and defies poetry and music uh as well. It's weird. Like I get the concept, I get the concept of um it's been 28 years without music, um, so it's all flooding back in, and music's back in the world, and everybody's you know, they're they're just in a spontaneous song and dance number, but it's it it's just awful.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

Yeah, it is, yeah. I understand it. The the drawback of having a story set in the 60s where some malevolent force has not allowed that unique selling point of the 60s, the colour, the music, the counterculture, the liberalism um has not allowed any of that to happen. Means that it makes for quite a drab grey production. That's what it's supposed to be. I mean, we're at uh Abbey Road, we're at the EMI recording studios, and there's no music, so you don't get those magnificent pictures of artists who've performed there, or the golden records, or the the album, the vinyl album covers. You can't have any of that. That's why you get this grim little the most colour you get is off the fucking tabard of the tea lady at the start.

SPEAKER_05 52:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

Like that kind of um, so you need something. People have tuned in, they want that 60s feel, so you need something at the end that gives them wholeheartedly that 60s feel. It just feels awful. And this is Murray Gold. Murray Gold has given certified bangers to Doctor Who. Certified amazingness, and this is this is what we get.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

I think it's lyrics by Ross T. Davis.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Is it now?

SPEAKER_03 53:27

I I think I want to say that, but I might be wrong. But I swear it's in the script.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Oh, okay. Well that could be But maybe not, maybe not.

SPEAKER_03 53:41

Hang on.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

And try to look here. There's no mention of it here in the notes that I have, but that could be the case. Because it's there is more in keep there is it is the same lyrical quality of uh my dog or the goblin song.

SPEAKER_03 54:05

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

You know, and there's no amount of colourful skirts or rain or umbrellas being waved or celebrity cameos that cover over the terrible lyricism. And you're right, and whoever said it in the listener correspondence is right. Why not just go for a non-beatles song that was covered by the Beatles who have essentially given the definitive version of that song and just do that, or just get a Scylla song.

SPEAKER_03 54:35

Yeah, yeah, you could always do that.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

Yeah. Or have the actors playing the Beatles playing that song, because they don't appear in that, and make it seem like it's the world writing itself, so throughout the song, the lyrics do improve because it's going from the kind of unimaginative, dull storytelling to you know, history writing itself and getting back to normal.

SPEAKER_03 55:01

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's it's such a terrible song. We talked about it on Richie's episode of In the Time Lash, um, where I left up to the the listeners to decide, and I think they did all decide that musical numbers in Doctor Who should be put in the time lash. So there we go, that's an update there. Um and I think on the strength of this, yeah, they probably should. Um I think I think it's direct I think the song and I think the dance bits are directed alright, you know, like you know, there's a bit of um the umbrellas of Sherberg in there, you know, there's a bit of singing in the rain, there's a bit of you know, but there's a bit of high school musical in there as well. Um but it's yeah, it's it's visually interesting for a second. I like the bit where they go at the TARDIS and the zebra crossing is is a piano. That's nice. Yeah that's that's a nice moment. Um but the song itself is bollocks.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Yes, it is. It feels like it's one of these songs that uh you know you go to a convention and you know there's a you're watching like a parody Doctor Who show. Ah, and they they don't have to change a word of it or do anything about it, they just have to do that song and you're automatically laughing.

SPEAKER_03 56:26

So it's just been Gallifrey as we record this. I think it was Gallifrey One the previous weekend, so last weekend, um and you know you see people kind of updating updating everybody else on what's happening at Galafrey One on on social media, and there was a there was a blue sky post that um Mark Harrison of this parish sent me. Hang on, let me just see if I can get it. Um on that on that very subject of sort of music adopts two conventions and uh and also fucking always a twist at the end. Uh there's always a twist at the end, absolutely destroyed the vibes at the Gallifrey one dance party last night. And it's like, well yeah, who the fuck put that on? Like why would you I mean a dance party at a Doctor Who convention to even start, I can't even like process that in my head. Like, what does that look like? A dance party at a Doctor Who convention.

SPEAKER_01 57:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:31

But then also don't put that, don't put that on.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

Yeah, it doesn't even have a kitched cult quality to it.

SPEAKER_03 57:38

No. And they played at the Royal Albert Hall for goodness sake.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Okay, I agree with a lot of people. This is where it falls down. Um they they could have done there has got to be. The actual Ruttles albums, which are on Spotify, I think, as well, are also a good listen. Neil Innis is a very talented musician, uh, and he's absolutely nailed the sound and the quality, but like great songs in and of themselves, uh uh but like good as parody as well. What I'm saying is there's got to have been a better way of kind of merging the idea. It doesn't even sound like a particularly 60s song, it's a 50s song, is what it sounds like. If you're gonna like you know, if we're talking about this golden age of age of music and that kind of mid-60s, this sounds very 50s, very mid-50s, very you know.

SPEAKER_03 58:59

It just doesn't and the Beatles were modernizing 50s songs, so like there is a world in which you know you can make that work by now.

SPEAKER_01 59:06

Yeah, but not even but not even the Beatles, it doesn't so it doesn't sound like the Rolling Stones, it doesn't sound like the Beach Boys, it doesn't sound like Silla Black, it doesn't sound like the animals, it doesn't sound like uh Manfred Mann, it doesn't sound like the faces, it doesn't like it's none of these none of these sixties, mid-sixties bands. It just sounds like generic lift music, which is a wee shame to close the episode or they redeem themselves by they do redeem themselves by that magical moment of you know tinkling across Abbey Roads as if it were a piano. Like that's fun.

SPEAKER_03 59:36

Should we bring it to a close then with sort of scenes, favourite performances? Because who could be arsed talking anymore about there's always a twist at the end?

SPEAKER_01 59:45

Okay, well, my favourite scene, or a couple of scenes, is when they first enter Abbey Roads and they go from room to room listening to dreadful music, and the reactions from Shouti Gatwa and Billy Gibson are perfect. Particularly big shout out to they've heard the Beatles, they pop next door uh to hear Scylla Black, and he says something like Go on, Scylla, let me see what you got, and then she sings, It's terrible, and it goes, Oh Scylla, like it's so perfectly articulated. The disappointment, the kind of uh I love that. I love that yeah comic mystery uh astonishment, that's what I'll call it. That's great. Uh and performance, I think it's I mean it's uh it's it's definitely Jinx Monsoon as maestro. Great work.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:33

Yep, same here for performance. Um scenes-wise, I think um I like the pyramids of Mars homage, that's good. Particularly when Jinx shows up sort of in that wasteland and that kind of resplendent in purple and sort of like has that kind of confrontation with the doctor. I think Shuty Gatwin and Jinx Monsoon are really good because I think he he pitches the because I think when you've got a performer like Jinx, you could he could have pushed it too far to match that energy. Where actually I think what you need to do is you bring yourself down so that there's a there's a balance there. And I think he does that, he does that pretty well in those sort of confrontations. So yeah, th those I also quite like the tuning, the sort of tuning fork. That's quite unnerving. But yeah, no, I think it's good, it's a good episode. I think it's it's definitely one of my favorites of this era. Um, I think for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

Well, okay, that was that was the devil's chord. We're gonna take a break uh for more fab four shenanigans, or fab three in this case, it's the fanfare of the common men. Uh so we'll see you in a moment. We're back! Uh, and it's 1963 Fanfare for the Common Men, which was the uh Fifth Doctor offering. Uh it was a little trilogy, uh, three 1963 uh kind of uh like an audio mini series for the fifth, sixth, and seventh Doctor, released for Doctor Who's 50th anniversary, and this was the first one. Uh, and it was uh it was recorded on the 17th and 18th of March 2013 and released on the 11th of September 2013, and it was written by Eddie Robson, directed by Barnaby Edwards, and produced by David Richardson, and the music and sound of which it's very important, uh, was by Howard Carter for this uh production. It starred Peter Davidson and Sarah Sutton, uh, as well as a few more uh famous faces. Mitch Ben is one of the common men and Ryan Sampson, who was what was what was his name in uh Oh shit, Ryan Sampson's Yeah, he was Lenny Kruger, the alien uh the the nauseatingly American alien manager. Wow but he was the wee boy in uh Sontaran's Stratagem and Poison Sky.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:56

And he's also the writer and star of Mr. Big Stuff with Danny Dyer, which I quite like. It's quite good.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:04

Oh really? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:05

Yeah, it's not bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:06

Uh but that's the stats for 1963 Fanfare for the Common Men. Great title. Great title. Yes. Um now for some now for some fun quick.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:33

And it's time once again into play. Digsies. What? Is it game? So neither of us got a point last round. I guessed first last time, so it's time for you to guess this time, Ben.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

Okay, uh so the category is books.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:03

Yes. Category.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:05

Where would you like to begin? Okay, uh right, okay. Question one. Uh is it a fiction book? No. No, okay, a little hesitancy there. Uh is it like a factual book, like a making-of book?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:23

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

It's not, okay. Is it like an autobiography?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:31

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:32

No. Okay, so it's not a fiction. Okay, I guess I should expand that from a fiction, because fiction can be created or it could be a novelization. Is that a novelization?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:41

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:42

No. Um Is it okay, interesting. So what could it be? So it's not a novelization, it's not taken from the show. It's not like an individual fiction. It's not a making of book, so and it's not like an actor autobiography. Is it new series?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

Yes, okay. So let's focus on era of new series. Is it RTD era?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:17

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:18

Is it Stephen Moffat era?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

Yeah, okay. Oh fuck, it was lawless when it came to stuff from that period. Yeah, it was. Is it a single book?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:35

Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:37

Okay, so it's not like a collection of books or something like that. Like a little box set of linked stories. It's a single book. Um does it have a page count of less than 150 pages?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:52

Um Hold please caller. I will find out for you. Um it has yes, it does indeed have. Under 100 pages.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:01

Under 100 pages. Okay. Okay. That's interesting. So it's quite a small work. It's not fiction.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:09

What other kind of books are there?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:11

Fiction.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:12

Particularly adoption related. Younger audience related.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:16

Oh, okay. Is it uh is it primarily prose?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:22

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:23

No. So it's very picture orientated then.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:29

Okay. Ooh, interesting. So it's like a like a like a comic book type of, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:42

No, I'm gonna say no, because it's not it's not anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

It's not a comic book, but it's primarily pictures. Is it one of the Doctor Who Mr. Men books?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:52

No, no.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:53

No. Okay. Okay, that's Final Five. Is it is it like a is it like a Doctor you're like a like a weave, you know, like a soft felt flappy book for like babies, babies. Like is it like that type of book?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:10

Well like that's not my TARS, it's it's uh exterior is too scratchy.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:15

That kind of thing, no, it's not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:18

That's not my TARS. That's really funny because uh his Harrison's favourite book is a fucking That's Not My Monkey, where you get to like touch the monkey's nose and all that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:26

Yeah, those books are great.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:27

There's a whole sequence of them. Okay, I'll tell you I'll tell you what I think it might be. Is it uh is it like a Doctor Who Wears Wally book, Where's the Doctor book?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:37

Yes, you got it. Is it I have that book? You got it, mate. I have that book. You got it, well done. Congratulations. Where's the doctor?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:45

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:47

Illustrations by Jamie Smart, and it opens with uh just a shitload of Daleks and Matt Smith with his It's a great book to look at.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:57

It's a great book to look at. I love that book.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:59

He's got it and he runs well done. Thank you very much. When I went to check the page count there, I just googled where's the doctor, and Google's AI was just like it's just round the corner, mate. The doctor's surgery. The Orchard Court surgery, it's just round the corner. We know where you live. Okay, I bet I bet I just uh adjust that. Anyway, um uh I'm gonna start, I suppose, as we often do. Is it a new series book?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:28

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:30

So it's a classic series book? Cool, yes. Alright. No, I'm just I'm just confirming that in my brain. That is my second question.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:39

Watch it. Um is it a is it like a puzzle book?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:47

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:48

Okay. Is it a quiz book?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:50

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:51

Okay. Is it a fiction book?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:55

Okay, a fiction book. Is it a original story, like not based on a TV show?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:05

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:06

Okay, so it's interesting. So it's a novelization.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:12

Okay. So I've just got a combo with a fucking target novelization, I could do. Is it is it published by Target Publishing actually? It is, yeah. Establish that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:25

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:26

But uh okay. Is it a novelization of uh I don't know, hang on a phrasing this? Of a broadcast Doctor Who story.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:40

Interesting. How do I reply to that? No.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:48

Is it the novelisation of K9 and Company?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:50

It may it is exactly that, yes. It's the companions of Doctor Who, Canine and Company by Terence Dudley.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:59

Brilliant. It was it's one of those things where like I got you know, you know, occasionally when you just get in Derek's head and you're like, you ask the right question and it's like, oh, it's a target novelization. But he's not gonna just get me to just rattle off target novelization till I get one. There's got to be something, there's got to be something more specific there, so yeah. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:19

Okay, well that's that's one point apiece. Well done. Uh that uh that was good. I enjoyed the buzz you get for getting the correct answer.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:28

Oh my god, it's been a while.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:31

It's been a while since I got one right.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:33

So we're we're one-one.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:34

A little bit of listener correspondence for this one. Um no surprise. Um one of those names is Dylan Reese, who I think did cover this on Too Hot for TV. I think when the Devil's Chord went out, I feel like that's oh are we just copying them?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:50

We just copied him, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:52

I thought I was so fucking smart coming up when that combo turns out nothing new under the Oh he recorded no, he he recorded it before he'd seen the devil's chord, so it was just like I think he just stuck the episode out around then to cash in on it without having. So we're doing the proper deep dive comparison work here, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

Deep dive.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:13

Well, anyway, sorry. Dylan Way says Fanfare for the Common Men is a brilliant way to do the Beatles when you can't do the Beatles. It's a meaty script full of decent ideas and works for fans of the Beatles and those of us with no real knowledge beyond the basics. Um Dan Hollingsworth says, Fanfare for the Common Men is great fun and a highlight of that very long audio season where the Devo Tardis was less crowded. A world where the Beatles don't exist, that'll never catch on in his narrative concept. Because of course, there was also the film yesterday, the Richard Curtis film, which he nicked from somebody else, allegedly. Allegedly, I should say, in case we get sued by Richard Curtis. Um, but that's a look it up. It was a whole there was a whole thing on social media.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:57

In the show notes, maybe we'll put a link to the essay. Uh yes, there was there was I I can't remember exactly the details, but the allegations are that this was a film script pitched by uh a newcomer to the industry and it was turned down at every at every juncture. And then suddenly Richard Curtis made that exact guy's film.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:19

Bit sus, bit sus.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:21

So, well now, whereas the Devil's Chord was very much about the absence of the Beatles, um, I suppose the absence of the heart of the Beatles, I suppose, because there's no music in the world. This is about the absence of the world, of the Beatles in the world, but takes a different approach by kind of saying, Well, okay, what if the Beatles didn't exist but there was another band that took their place and we kind of put them in that exact period of history, and they ate all the movements of the Beatles sort of culturally and the things they did. How would that how would that go down? And basically there's a sci-fi plot involving basically these sort of three aliens that when they reach kind of peak fame, they'll basically be able to take over the universe. That's that's the sort of central idea, which is a big mad concept for a Doctor Who story. But I think this one, and I think it's probably because Eddie Robson is a big Beatles fan, but this one feels far more Doctor Who does the Beatles than the Devil's Chord does, even though, like you said at the start, they only turn up at the end and play a brief chord before the the theme chain kicks in.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:40

Yeah, I um I like the concept of this. The the this is believable in terms of how the baddie goes about trying to keep everything broadly the same, believably the same, but with different faces starring in those rules of notoriety.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:57

Yeah, and different songs as well, because crucially the point is that they have to have written and performed the songs themselves, otherwise it won't work. So they can't just they can't just copy the Beatles songs and hope that that'll have the same impact.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:10

Yeah, it's um yeah, there's gotta be an organic it's it's about it's uh a race of aliens um who gain very vicious powers by simply being known, known of, yeah, having notoriety. Um but there's gotta be an organic quality to it. And Eddie Robson places it in this very believable way in that there is still uh a 1960s sensibility of uh uh wanting a more liberal society by or more than a blow culture by the society of the time, by the young people of the time, but by keeping um not construction national service going a little longer than it did originally, which means that a lot of the young men who would have been the face of this kind of counter counterculture didn't get the opportunity to do that. Uh which means that uh this the macinations of a of a of an alien nerdwell is able to drop three other aliens who don't know that they're aliens into the space that the Beatles uh were not able to claim. Uh and and essentially monet not monetize, but uh capitalise on uh on a society who wants that thing to happen.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:31

And I think it's su it's such a good concept, and I think it re it really feels like it's kind of like it is bathed in sort of like Beatles lore, um, which we can kind of discuss a bit as we go on. Um The one thing I do find a little bit that stretches credulity is that did we buy the fifth doctor as a Beatles fan?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:53

No, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:55

Um He's an Edwardian cricketer! What's he do what's he doing? Going, oh you gotta go and see the Beatles.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:01

There feels like there's too much uh one of the things I have a problem with this this production is that there feels like there's too much of uh an 80s Doctor Who sensibility getting in the way of attempting to create a real 1960s or 1960s Doctor Who vibe.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:19

That's interesting, because I feel musically, anyway, I think it does a really good job of mixing that kind of 80s Doctor Who soundtrack with a kind of 60s sound of like the Beatles, the Shadows, like all these kind of bands. I think I think orally oh no, I'm sorry, orally it can never make I can never make it obvious what I'm you know, ears wise, not mouthwise.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

I think uh I think the strength of this though is that Eddie Robson has perfectly identified the images that we see in our head when people mention eras of the Beatles and and all the key scenes happen uh you know around those images. The y when you think of the Beatles, you think of getting off of plane with screaming fans. Yeah. Uh you think of uh either huge stadiums or you know when they go at the Royal Variety performance that the the infamous shake your jewellery in the in the expensive seats from John Lennon. Um or post Beatles, uh John Lennon living in an apartment in New York. Uh there are so many aspects of the Beatles, their their their imagery is almost as iconic as the music is, and it's a very smart production because all the key it it bases itself purely, it's a very easily visual audio release. You get it, like you absolutely get these key these key chapters to the Beatles' life, so you can see the cut the fan uh the common men slotted in there.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:54

And I think the performances are really good, um, particularly Mitch Ben as uh Mark, who is not John Lennon, but is basically John Lennon. Yeah, I think he really like channels the voice, the sort of the character of of Lennon. Um, but also I think David Dobson is Corky, who is essentially Wrinkle Star. He's he's great. But actually, the three of them together, I feel a bit bad for George Harrison, uh, because he he doesn't have an analogue in this. But I think the way particularly Mitch Ben and David Dobson interact with each other, but but as the the three of them, Andrew Knott as as James O'Meara, who's basically Paul McCartney, it does really recall that the way the Beatles just spoke to each other, like in press conferences or on or on camera when they're on films or on like doing the Morcom and Wise show or you know all that.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:46

Yeah, and interviewed by Ken Dodd or something, yeah, or Jimmy Tarbuck.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:50

It really nails like that sort of pattern they had with each other and that sense of humour. And that's I think what really makes it work, yeah, as a story.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:00

It's so yeah, you are weird. You are right.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:03

I am weird as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:05

Was Peter Davison the best doctor for this? I think maybe it might sing a bit more if it had been like Colin Baker or if it had been or if it had been Tennant as the tenth doctor, you know, who is a pop culture enthusiast.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:21

Sure. But I think obviously you were limited to the the first three. But yeah, I could see Colin Baker as kind of this sort of bombastic character fitting in quite well into a world of kind of records, record companies and talent agents. And also I can see Perry being far more interested in going to see the Beatles. I mean, obviously the gag is that Nyssa couldn't give a fuck. That is the sort of central gag, I suppose, as as the episode goes on. But yeah, would it have would it have gained something if it was if it was Perry? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:52

Uh I think it would because and I'm gonna say this, I don't mind if these words are recorded for posterity. Sarah Sutton doesn't appear to have improved as an actress, one iota over the past 30 years since she started playing this character. I think Nicola Bryant would have been a much more uh nuanced and enthusiastic lead for that the other the the non-doctor plot threads.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:19

Well, because there's there's a there's a sort of romance between sort of Nissa and Cor. There's like there's the there's a sort of suggestion of of a ro well no, I think I think that's where that would have gone if you had somebody with a bit more charisma. Yes, like I think a Nicola Bryant would have amped up that kind of tenderness between the scene that where his companion the scene where uh Nissa has to break it to is it Corky that he's an alien and he doesn't believe?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:56

He kind of is listening to it, he doesn't know what to do with the information. It feels like it needed to be a bit more emotionally broken to the character for for like that scene to properly crackle. Yeah. Uh we don't we don't we don't get that. I think if Nicola Bryant had done it, it would have been a better scene for it. It's still my favourite scene in there. Well, there's a couple of favourite scenes, but yeah, I I don't I don't feel like Sarah Sutton was really giving it her her all. Or maybe it's the acting choice that she's trying to act like she would have acted uh or the character would have been back in that point. This is set in that gap between time flight and arc of infinity, but you know that increasingly long gap between flights. I'm surprised they remembered who Teagan was when we see her again in episode two of Ark of Infinity. And I also feel like as much as he's proclaiming to be a Beatles fan, I don't quite get that from Peter Davison's Fifth Doctor.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:51

No, it's kind of more that he's a kind of he appreciates them on a kind of cultural and historical level. And I suppose that that there's there's an interesting thing you can do, I suppose, with that as the doctor, it's not the David Tennant thing of like, ah, the Beatles are bloody great. I don't know who that was. Uh and so he's kind of taking this a there more as a kind of lesson in earth sort of culture and history.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:17

No, I I I get that. I get I certainly get that. I just I feel like it would have benefited with a bit more passion, which maybe the sixth doctor would have would have brought to it, or or he would have treated it with an academic passion, but with a bit more bombast, which would have, you know, maybe been the same thing. Um but then I'm like that's just me. I just I don't think I'm that much of a fan of the fifth doctor in any iteration, either TV or or uh or or audio.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:44

I quite like Davison in this. Maybe it's partly because he's got a kind of more believable companion for a little bit in Rita, kind of a fan who gets swept along, and she's got like quite an interesting backstory. So yeah, because National Service continued past when it did in our time, her brother went off, joined the army, died in a training accident. And so she's got this kind of impetus to help the doctor put time back on the right track so that she can save her brother. That's a nice little character backstory, and then also the idea that the doctor kind of changes her life and her career by giving her the job of like it's kind of the doctor fobbing her off because he's like, Oh, I don't want to take her because it's kinda getting dangerous. But actually, him getting her to follow the common men and ask questions gives her this like career as a music journalist. Yeah. And writing this book about Mark and the kind of career, and that's the the sort of framing device of well, the first three episodes until she gets killed are these tapes that they're recording.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:48

It's Alison Tha Scott, the she's an improv comedian. The performances are pretty good in this. I really like it. It's uh the scouse accents are not grating, it's not the scouse equivalent of the American accents in Minuet and Hell, which is or the American accent. Unbearable. Or yeah, the American accent is this, or the American accents in Invaders from Mars. Like it just it's unbearable. Some big finish does American.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:17

Um the level of thought that goes into the soundscape for this and the soundtrack for this by Harold Carter, and I believe sort of Eddie Robson.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:31

I mean, presumably the reason Mitch Ben was cast in this, as well as being a very able performer, is he's also a musician as well. I would I would imagine he was a very good thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:40

I would imagine him, Barnaby Edwards definitely had some input in it as well, and and Eddie Robson is the writer. I think the level of thought in it, like so it's it's the common men, so it's it's the band that we know obviously that that um John Smith and the Common Men number from Annother Child is very sort of guitar. I don't know what you I can't remember what you call it, my sister would know, but that kind of it's not surf guitar, it's it's a certain type of guitar music, and it's very much like the shadows, you know, like Time Marvin, all that kind of thing. So they they've got that in mind, and so those songs that they play it's Beatles inflected, but it's also it's also got the influence of of the shadows and other bands as well to kind of give it that kind of 60s um 60s sound, and I think it's really works those songs, and also the soundtrack itself sounds like a 1980s Doctor Who story doing a 1960s story, yeah. You know, it sounds like Peter Howell doing, you know, like a 1960s score. Um so I yeah, that like that's one of my favourite elements of it. It really, I think, really helps sell the the audio because I think for me I'm less bothered sometimes about the like the audibly aging doctors, although it's getting to a point now with Sylvester McCoy, particularly, where I'm just like, it just doesn't sound like the doctor anymore, it just sounds like my granddad's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:07

He sounds like convention Sylvester McCoy rather than prime time Seventh Doctor.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:14

But I think what always really pulls me out is the music, like a big finish score that doesn't feel in keeping with the period it's supposed to be replicating, throws me out in a way that the voice acting doesn't always do. Um so this I did not have that problem at all because it really felt quite um in keeping with the tone of the 80s, but also in keeping with the setting of the 60s and in keeping with the story it's telling musically, you know, about this band. So that's one of the sort of big things I really enjoyed about this.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:50

Yeah. I mean I really enjoyed the whole concept in that in that there is a throwaway line in the very first episode of Doctor Who, which just kind of shades in a bit of character colour for that time and for that teenage girl, and then cut to 50 years later, and we have a if if you care to look, turns out there is a a life beyond that line in the first episode that it's three aliens who've manipulated by another alien who've been left on earth, their career has been bumped along by the doctor trying to reset time, and and that's where we get the common men for. And of course, obviously, we didn't talk about it, but there is a poster for John Smith and the Common Men in the Devil's Code.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:34

It's for Chris Waits and the Carolers. It's an old added billboard for Chris Waits and the Carolers.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:43

I just but that's like that's that's Doctor Who for you. You know, uh if you want to look beyond that initial line, there's a whole wealth of entertainment for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:54

Yeah, I mean that's the thing with Doctor Who, isn't it? It's that any throwaway line is a pitch for a future episode. Or audio or novel. Yeah. Depending on what what route you want to take.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:05

I like the little odd diversion that they have where they go to, you know, obviously the Beatles went to see a spiritual guru, and of course, the common men do as well. That spiritual guru is like a time-sensitive ex-time traveller.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:20

He's in Wales. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:21

Yeah. And the doctor starts getting on his case, and it's just it's just a red heading. It's not that guy. He's just a just a collateral time tourist that the doctor bullies for a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:32

That's very funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:33

I'll tell you what I also love as well is that the resolution for this is an appeal to the baddie's ego. Um bad PR substantially drains that the baddie of um of Lovleny Krueger of his power. And the only way that the doctor can negotiate that the baddie doesn't die, because the guy's really proud of this massive plan that he nearly pulled off for some kind of like time-changing world domination power grab. And the doctor's like, well, if you stay alive, then you'll be able to remember what you nearly did. And the baddie takes that as an option. Like that he was he was proud of nearly completing that plan, and he'd be sad not to remember that. I think that's a fabulous resolution, the appeal to the ego.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:26

It is, and then also the mad resolution where they do the the Paul McCartney conspiracy theory.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:32

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:34

In which they kind of grow, they grow a uh like a flesh suit double, yeah. Of um John, it's not John, is it James?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:45

James American dump him in the basement. I'd love to see that on telly Peter Davison and Sarah Sutton dumping a body like in the basement of a flat.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:56

In the basement of a flat. And is that like a reference to like missing Doctor Who episodes turning up in boxes in the basements of Baseball?

SPEAKER_03 1:30:02

Maybe, maybe. Possibly. The real conspiracy theory was Paul McCartney died in a car crash. Yeah. And was replaced, but because the Beatles were massive, they couldn't tell anybody, so they just replaced them when they look like all the cover for Abbey Roads.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:20

Yeah, yeah, all that stuff. I mean, why would why? And as it turns out, the that double, that that replacement has been infinitely more successful than the original person they were sent to replace.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:34

So Well that that's another interesting thing about this. So I know it's not a dig at well, I don't know, maybe it is. Um there's that idea that the Beatles are less Well, sorry, there's the idea that the common men are less impactful singly as they are as a group. And so therefore the implication is that that's how Eddie Robson and and the and the wider culture sees the Beatles. And I think that is broadly true.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:03

I mean they feel more real and approachable, uh less mythic as individuals.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:10

You know. We've we've got as like as I said, like we have images in our head of who the Beatles are, and and it feels like it's always up on a screen. It's uh, you know, somehow filmic, it's it's somehow history in the way that uh John Lennon sitting in the bed, uh Paul McCartney doing a James Bond theme tune, George Harrison showing up in an episode of Rutland Weekend Television, Ringo Starr doing the voice of Thomas the Tank Engine. That's not as mythic, you know. It's it still forms part of people's cultural identities. Certainly, before Ringo Star was ever a Beatle, he was the voice of Thomas the Tank Engine for me. He was the voice of my very early childhood.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:52

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But then George Harrison, I mean, you know, he was instrumental in in some of the best films. British films in the 80s, you know, like um but yes, they're not they don't individually they've all all created great stuff, but yeah, they don't necessarily have that that sort of big cultural impact. I think the other interesting thing is that um this very much comes down on the idea, you know, the Beatles split up because of John Lennon's monstrous ego and Alan Klein as as their kind of slightly dodgy manager, because that's ultimately what this is all about. And the end of part three the end of part three cliffhanger is John Lennon, but not John Lennon, becoming a massive monster and killing Paul McCartney that's not Paul McCartney. Um like you don't get a bigger metaphor for you know John Lennon's monstrous ego than that.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:48

Yeah, it's uh there are there are a lot of layers, it's enjoyable as something if you are not a fan. If you are a fan, you you can there's a there's a lot of stuff in there where you can go, ah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:02

It is it is very I get you.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:04

Well done, well done.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:05

Um, how did you listen to this as it of interest?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:08

Uh I well, okay. I know that you told me it was on Spotify. I thought I would support Big Finish because congratulations, we have Big Finish for another decade, is it? So I bought it, I bought the release from the website. It was only$3.99. Um but it's the episodes and uh like a wee half hour making of documentary at the end.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:32

Uh I listened to it in a slightly unconventional way, so it is on Spotify, but it's not uh it's not like the first 50 where it's just it's the audios. It's this um podcast they did l 2023 for the 60th, which was called uh was it in it in the vortex or something? I don't know, bear with or into the TARDIS, sorry, Doctor Who, into the TARDIS. This was 2024, actually, this came out. Um and it was a podcast in which Colin Baker, the actor Colin Baker, uh introduced sort of Doctor Who audios from the Big Finish archive. So it was weird, right? So it was almost like these were like previously missing Big Finish episodes that were being introduced to me a la the years tapes. Because he would do like a little pressy of the story so far, you know, as it went on. So they were like broken up into part one. So it's still part one, part two, part three, part four.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:29

But you got the whole audio experience, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:33

But you also bookending each episode is a little intro by Colin Baker, in which he'll go, Oh, well, this is what the story's about. And then in part two, it's like, This is what just happened. Here's part two.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:46

Oh, I wish I'd heard that.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:48

But also, like, it's weird because like he'll um So at the end of the episode, he'll be like, Oh well, how about that then? You know, you'll have to come back for the next episode. And then he'll just go on an anecdote about Peter Davison. He's like, of course, uh I took over from Peter in 1983 and uh and he just tells this anecdote about the magma based and how Peter Davison was supposed to fight it, but you know, they ran out of time, and and I was just like, what the fuck's this got to do with it's just calling Baker crowbars in a convention anecdote, and they go, Oh, and here's Mitch Benz talk about playing John Lennon. He's like, Oh, okay, right, fine. So they kind of chop up the behind the scenes interviews as well and throw those in. At the start of part four, he goes, Oh, and now we well, it's the concluding part of fanfare for the common men. Long, isn't it? Like cheeky bastards.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:45

Oh, I I've I've listened to mine in such a pedestrian way. That was that was much better of an experience.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:52

That was just that was just me saving money, and I was just saying, oh my god, I've just unlocked this whole world of Doctor Who that I didn't know existed.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:58

You've got to re-listen to it now with that. That that really puts it up a notch. I'm talking earlier about wanting more Colin Baker in it, and uh, there is a way for you to do that. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:10

Having some sort of meta sixth doctor experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:14

Alright, I uh I think we'll bring it in then.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:17

So, I mean a lot of a lot of great scenes um I think I've mentioned performances for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:25

I think for me it's it's um Mitch Ben and David Dobson um as kind of Mark and Corky. I think they both really inhabit the sort of John Lennon Ringo Star analogues that they're kind of written as. Um I also love the I love the idea. Obviously, I know we've talked about a lot about favourite scenes, but I also love the idea of doing a Doctor Cliffhanger where the fifth doctor or any doctor I suppose is just chased by rabid fans. Yeah, I was gonna say exactly the same. That's that's a great cliffhanger. That is a really great cliffhanger, it's quite funny. Um but yeah, so those those two I think would be my favourite performances.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:03

Yeah, I love the idea of the um the whatever persuasion ray is being used to amplify the effect causing the Queen Mother to do the twist in the royal box of the royal. Yes, that's a great line.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:15

Is that the Queen Brother doing the twist?

SPEAKER_01 1:37:19

I think Ryan Sampson is the right side of over the top uh as a slavering uh alien Lenny Krueger, what a name. Uh it's a good ambient piece, it's a good vibe piece. If you're looking for that, uh I mean, I because we're getting into the kind of the 60th anniversary of Star Trek, I'm thinking of all the other anniversaries that I've really uh enjoyed, and you know, the 50th anniversary of Doctor Who was a great time, and it's nice to finally get to some of the releases from that year that I didn't catch when initially they were put on. Um for whatever for whatever reason, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:05

I don't remember the seventh doctor one, but the sixth but I like to say that sixth doctor one's quite good.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:10

I can't know what was it called? It was called the Assassination. It was called the Assassination Games, and it was the Doctor and Ace and the Countermeasures team, and I think that was the launch for the countermeasures box sets that came out.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:24

Oh, was it? Or was it them going back to I can't remember, but yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:29

Um but yeah, it was like another, it was obvious it was another 1963. Um I I don't know, are they linked? You know, this is obviously the first one.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:39

The only link is just the year they're set, I believe if I remember rightly.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:43

Okay, so it's not like the countermeasures team uh hear about the talking dog from space or there's nipples in time because of the Beatles or something like okay. Because there is a moment where they refer to the war machines in this, where they arrive in London and he's he says something like uh is it in 19 They're in 1966 is one of the time periods they jump to because this h like there's uh there's three or four different time periods this happens in, and there's some mention of them being in he says I'll I'll avoid London in 1966, which is the time machine.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:20

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. 67 is the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:22

Yeah, the war machine, sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:24

So 60 so 66 is obviously he's avoiding the war machines, and 67 is the year he lands in instead, yeah. And also that's the year Alan Klein comes because Brian Epstein dies, and Alan Klein comes in as manager of the Beatles. So that so it's all kind of tying up with that that timeline.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:40

So yeah, you know, it like would I recommend it? Absolutely, it was a gl it was a lot of fun. Actually, uh with a lot more musical uh ability and consistency than uh than the Devil's Chord.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:57

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:58

Alright, well that was the Devil's Chord and 1963 fanfare for the common men.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:03

I'm sorry, sorry, I should say, um I have been having some themed drinks as we've been chatting. Uh I got I got myself some music-themed beers uh from the supermarket. Uh so I've just been drinking a mixtape double IPA from the full circle uh brew co. Um I also had a brew dog RIP uh Elvis juice at the top of the episode. And the ones that I haven't got around to drinking yet, because I've I've been quite restrained this evening. Uh is a Fresh Prince of Les air. Okay IPA there. Uh and uh Megadeth uh they because you know if you you're a metal band you've got to have your own brewery these days at Iron Maiden Day. Uh a Megadeth Rattlehead IPA, which I might have later on. No, I couldn't no Beatles bears though. I couldn't find any sort of Beatles themed bears, but I guess they're probably a bit more regimented in terms of copyright.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:58

Well, thank you very much everyone for uh for joining us for all listener correspondence. Um what have we got coming up next time?

SPEAKER_03 1:41:07

Boom! Sorry, I should have banged the table and gone boom like Sophie Aldred's in Battlefield. Uh yeah, we've got boom. Stephen Moffat's glorious returns top two. Or is it? And what are we pairing that up with? Did we say the Dominicans?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:22

No, Destiny of the Daleks.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:25

Oh yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:28

Just because there's a bit where somebody's trapped on a bomb in a in a quarry.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:33

Well then also there's a kind of the the idea of the kind of machine logic, isn't there, as well?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:38

Yes. Sorry, I've just looked at the list, and uh I'd actually put Destiny of the Daleks and Dominate the Dominators. So I guess we can choose now which one do we want to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:49

I feel the dominators might fit the robot revolution better.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:53

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:54

It's kind of about sort of a subjugated people. That's all I've got. But there's an allegorical com uh there's also an allegorical comment on the youth of today as well, because obviously there's incel culture in the robot revolution and pacifism and peace and love in the dominators. So there we go. So yeah, so we'll do Destiny of the Daleks for for boom.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:21

Okay, looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:23

Nice, nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:24

Uh nice one. Okay, well, get in contact with us with the the usual channels. Uh, but until then, thank you very much. I've been Ben.

SPEAKER_03 1:42:32

I've been Mark, and they have been John Smith and the Garmin Men.