155. White Pricks (Dot and Bubble/The Savages)

Ben and Mark go On the Tightrope as they attempt to talk about the heavy themes and issues brought up by Dot and Bubble without getting cancelled or sounding like Legz Akimbo theatre company. But don't worry, there's some light relief in the form of the William Hartnell serial, The Savages, in which an underclass are brutally subjugated by their privileged masters. Ah. 

Also: What is the Citizen Kane of Doctor Who? Who's responsible for William Hartnell's Reactive Vibrator? And why shouldn't we mourn Ricky September?

Enjoy the podcast? Why not buy us a pint or contribute to our hosting fees here?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello, faithful listener. It's uh Mark here in the edit, just with a couple of I suppose housekeeping uh things ahead of this episode. So uh we recorded this uh last month. Um and obviously in this we talk about Russell T. Davis. Is he all that interested in social media? Does he know social media enough to kind of write Dot and Bubble? Does he have the lived experience to tackle you know the theme of racism um in Dot and Bubble? And obviously since then Tiptoe has come out in which Russell T. Davis uh talks about the impact of social media on the community that he does have lived experience of being a part of uh the LGBTQ plus community in Manchester. Um and I would argue that um that doesn't quite stick the landing either. But this isn't a podcast about Tiptoe, but I just wanted to if people are kind of listening to this going, why don't they mention Tiptoe? That's why we hadn't seen it. Um so that's one thing. Um second thing, we're obviously not gonna talk about uh the the you know cancellation of Christmas or the tender partly because we don't really know anything and who the fuck are we to to comment really. But also we've never been a news podcast if if a Doctor podcast could be considered to be a news podcast, it's quite self-important title, isn't it? Um you can decide for yourself which uh Drop Two podcasts are self-important like that. Anyway, um I'm rambling and uh I'm not even rambling about Dot and Bubble or the Savages, which I'll be doing after the theme tune. Please enjoy it.

SPEAKER_04 2:19

My name is Ben.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

My name is Mark, and we're here to talk about issues. Issues.

SPEAKER_04 2:26

Wonderful Ollie Plumsoul's voice there.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Because we're talking about Dot and Bubble and the Savages, two stories that um well if you if you watch the documentary in the Blu-ray, uh I think the Savages started out as being more of a uh story about racism than it maybe ends up becoming, but there's certainly themes that that these two stories have in common about the privileged classes and segregationism and and things like that. So yeah, it's quite uh quite heavy topics, but um I'm sure we'll have a laugh at some point there.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

At some point. If this is this feels like this is the one the cancelling one. This is this is the cancelling point for on the time lash.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Yes, this is the tight rope. This is the tight rope.

SPEAKER_04 3:12

Yeah, we um we held off, we both were saying before we started recording, from having any drinks so that so we could be sharp and focused and uh you know avoid any kind of legal issues.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Well, we got through we got through Rosa, we got through Rosa uh intact. But I would say this is more contentious because it's a white man writing it without uh any black co-writer or anything like that. Um I think there's a difference there's a difference in kind of fan response to this episode as well, which is quite interesting to dig into. Um and I think also um there's a slightly hectoring tone that I think people start to take against after this point from our from Dear Leader Russell T. Davis.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

Yeah. Alright, well we'll let's dive straight in.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

For listeners there, I did a little kind of steepling of my fingers there when I went, yes, let's as if I'm on fucking question time or newslight review.

SPEAKER_04 4:17

Um all right, Dot and Bubble was written by Russell T. Davis and directed by Dylan Holmes Williams. It was broadcast on the 1st of June 2024. Um, and it was uh the UK broadcast of Dot and Bubble brought in overnight viewing figures of 2.12 million. The episode was viewed by 3.38 million viewers when accounting for seven-day ratings, which was the lowest viewing figure since the first episode of Battlefield in 1989, which received 3.1 million viewers. It was the 24th most watched programme of the week, but it was the highest viewed in both its time slot and the day overall. So that's a larger conversation about what on earth is going on with how people take in media. Uh ratings-wise, Digital Spy and uh Digital Spy and The Eye gave it two stars. Empire, the Evening Standards, and the Radio Times gave it three stars. The Independent Total Film and Vulture gave it four stars, and on Rotten Tomatoes it has a tomatoometer meeting uh rating, sorry, of 93%. Uh people had some thoughts, didn't they? They did about this. Um but that is, firstly, but that is the stats. Before we get into the heavy stuff, let's have some fun.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

We'll need a hit.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Degses What is it game? This is the game in which uh the Dexercio Funmaker challenges Ben and I to identify some Doctor Who merchandise items, some niche, some well known, um, with it in 20 questions or less. The category this round is books, could be anything. Fiction, non-fiction, fucking we have we we had a Dungeons and Dragons style role-playing game book a few episodes ago, didn't we? Uh could be anything. Yeah. Um, yes, so that's that's the category for this time around. And uh Ben, would you like to start? Would you like to guess your item?

SPEAKER_04 6:39

Yeah, okay. Okay, yes, I can do it. I can do it. Come on, Ben, you can do this. Alright, 20 questions, and it's a book.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Alright. You got a lot of opening questions you can choose from there.

SPEAKER_04 6:50

Yeah, is it is it new series?

SPEAKER_01 6:53

No.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

So it doesn't necessarily mean it's classic series? What okay, so is it classic series?

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yes. Oh yeah, it's not new series, yeah. I suppose you could now well fuck. Are we now at that stage? Are we at the is it new series or is it new new series?

SPEAKER_04 7:07

Yeah, no, okay, so it's classic series. So and uh okay, this is the same question, but classic series as in between sixty-three and eighty-nine.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Yes, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

Um is it published between sixty-three and eighty-nine?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Oh, oh, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_04 7:25

I you know I it's not like a it's not like a McCoy story but like fucking published 2010, you know.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Yes, it is, yes.

SPEAKER_04 7:33

So, alright, so it's got a classic series between that point. Um is it sixties?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

No.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

Is it seventies?

SPEAKER_01 7:40

No.

SPEAKER_04 7:42

Is it eighties? Well, of course it would be eighties then, I suppose.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Yes, I won I won I won't take that as a question.

SPEAKER_04 7:48

Is it a novelization?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

No.

SPEAKER_04 7:51

Is it an original work of fiction? No. Is it a factual book?

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

Is it about a production of the series?

SPEAKER_01 8:00

No, no. Not about a singular production.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

Right, okay. Uh not about a singular production. Well, okay, is it like uh is it like an actor biography?

SPEAKER_01 8:14

No.

SPEAKER_04 8:14

Sorry, is it a biography? No.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Still still no.

SPEAKER_04 8:18

Still no, okay. Uh so it's not a biography. Um is it a but it's not about a singular Okay, that's interesting we say it's not a singular production. So is is it an overview of a specific era of Doctor Who?

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Um can I go and I mean yes, but that's not really what the book is, if you see what I mean.

SPEAKER_04 8:38

Is it something more about the characters of Doctor Who?

SPEAKER_01 8:42

No.

SPEAKER_04 8:42

Okay, so it's a it's a factual book, it's more contemporary. Um is it is it more is it prose? Like is it largely prose? Is it more a kind of reading book?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Uh yes.

SPEAKER_04 8:55

Okay, is that the book? Have you got the book on your because I can see the pages for the book?

SPEAKER_01 8:59

I do I do own it, so uh yes.

SPEAKER_04 9:03

Okay, so okay Is it like one of the books like Yeah. Is it one of those books about like the 70s? Doctor Who the seventies?

SPEAKER_01 9:13

No.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

No, okay. Um is uh specifically about like a is it more specific about like a Dalek sorry like a Doctor Who monster?

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Um no, no.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

No. Oh no. But what I feel like I'm close.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

What other non-fiction topics could you have?

SPEAKER_04 9:33

And it was and it's in the eighties. It's in the eighties. Non-fiction fiction topic. Is it like a is it like one of those kind of like celebratory books about Doctor Who? Like for the 25th anniversary?

SPEAKER_01 9:45

No. No five left probably five left.

SPEAKER_04 9:50

Um okay, so is it like the Doctor Who like A to Z book that was came out? No. Um so it's like an 80s book is about the kind of production of Doctor Who. It's not anything celebratory of like a specific anniversary. Um it is uh okay. Is it Is there a lot of pictures in it?

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:12

Yeah, okay. Is it like that kind of the Doctor Who key to time book? No. Two more Tumor. Oh no. I'm gonna kick myself. I feel like the seductive little kind of page twirls that I was seeing from the bottom of your screen. I feel like I should know what this book is. Is it uh it's not like that life with the producer book? No. No. It's not the Doctor Who Cook book, no.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

No, it is No, okay.

SPEAKER_04 10:49

That's my that's my 20.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

Doctor Who Special Effects by Matt Irvine. So it's an overview of kind of all his work on well, it's not just his work.

SPEAKER_04 11:01

Didn't even know that book existed.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Oh, it's it's it's quite, you know, it's a bit dry, but there's some lovely pictures in it. Uh also, my copy of it, if I can find the right bit. There's also a rather lovely uh full page full print spread from Mair King and Company of uh what's his name with his top off? There you go. That's uh that's the answer.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

Delightful.

SPEAKER_04 11:21

What's special effects say about that? Why is there a lot of it? I would not have got that. I wouldn't uh I suspected something like that existed. I didn't know specifically that was a book.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

There we go. It's my and so my copy of it. I got uh John Leeson to sign the canine chapter.

SPEAKER_03 11:40

Ah, brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

So yeah. Should probably get Matt Irving to sign it at some point before he shuffles off this mortal coil.

SPEAKER_04 11:48

Um You know when you just hear a line that's definitely gonna be cut.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

And you'll be hearing a lot more of those as the episode goes on.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

Means that maybe it isn't. So okay. Uh all right, Mark, 20 questions for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Okay, so books, books, books, books, books.

SPEAKER_01 12:07

Uh well, I guess I'll just start where you started. Is it a I'm gonna go the other way. Is it a classic series book? No. Okay, so new series. Um is it fiction Yes? Okay. Okay. Right now then. Jesus. So many talks are fiction books in the new series. Um Is it Is it a novel?

SPEAKER_06 12:35

No.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Is it an anthology?

SPEAKER_04 12:38

No, I don't think so. I don't have that data. I don't think it is.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 12:43

I'm gonna say no. You know what? Rather than think, I'm gonna say no.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Okay. Is it like a kind of fictionalized guide to Joshua in some kind of way? No.

SPEAKER_06 12:55

No.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Is it Morpha era?

SPEAKER_06 13:00

No.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

Is it RTD era?

SPEAKER_03 13:03

No.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Is it triple era?

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Yes it is.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

I of course it is. I don't know why I didn't know why I suppose it could have been RTD too. Um okay, so the triple era What kind of books came out the triple era? There was that, um. Is it for perhaps a younger audience? I mean, I don't even remember the name. Ah fuck, what was this thing called? Because I think I know what it is then. There was like a do more than one. There was like a kind of like children's book and it had d the thirteenth doctor on it as a kind of cartoon drawing. Is it is it that? Is it that book?

SPEAKER_04 13:52

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

What was that called? Because that was just gonna be there. Was it called Doctor Who and the Was it called Doctor Who, the something something? Um god Well literally, yes.

SPEAKER_04 14:08

Doctor Who, the something something.

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Yes. Is it called like Vault 13 or something?

SPEAKER_06 14:14

No.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Okay. Is it like the prisoners of No. Okay, I need to say. Is it like a kind of is it a traditional Doctor Who naming construct? Like the something of something?

SPEAKER_04 14:29

Uh yeah, I'd say so.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

So it's TARDIS in the title.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

It's becoming fucking hangman now, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 14:39

It's like You're one word away. You're one word away.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

So wait, so hang on a second, right? Okay, so hang on a second. So is it the something or is it just the word another word and then TARDIS?

SPEAKER_03 14:50

Yes. You're looking for one word.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Oh right, so it's something TARDIS. Or TARDIS something. Oh that okay, that's a good question. Is it TARDIS something? So is TARDIS the first word, I suppose I should ask. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:04

Uh no.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Right, okay, so it's the second word. Is the first word like a noun?

SPEAKER_06 15:12

I I have no idea about noun. Yeah, I was gonna say I can't remember. I I've asked that. I've learned it and I've no idea.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

So if it's two words and the second word's TARDIS. The TARDIS probably has to be doing something, right?

SPEAKER_04 15:27

So uh yes, that is the cover.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

It's up to Oh, that was like a rhetorical, sorry, that was a rhetorical like.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

Oh right, sorry, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

So is like the is the first word like an action or yes.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Three more.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Alright, what kind of TARDIS do it? Can fly away. What would be ex what would be like an exciting children's is it like Doctor Who runaway TARDIS?

SPEAKER_04 15:56

That's uh that's ex Yes, that is exactly what it's called. Doctor Who, the Runaway TARDIS. Uh Pop classics.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Don't know what that is, but it's like vaguely remember seeing it and be like, oh, that's good that they're doing Pop's like pop there are those cards, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 16:15

Um but yeah, it is. It's a little young uh like a kid's comic strip Doctor Who story called The Runaway TARDIS.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 16:26

I did not know that exist. I mean, I think we all know like I'm thick as pick shit with these things now, but like uh yes, you absolutely got it. Well done, Mark Doctor Who, the runaway TARDIS, the pop classic. Um says based on based on the series by Chris Chibnell, illustrated by Kim Smith.

SPEAKER_03 16:44

Well, there you go. Based on the series by Chris Chibnell.

SPEAKER_04 16:50

There you are, haters, it's a thing to itself if you want it to be. Uh but yes, congratulations, Mark. Uh Ace, you got it.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Lovely. Now, this is all very confusing because each of us have a listener correspondence. So, shall we do like I'll go, I'll do one, you do one kind of a deal?

SPEAKER_04 17:08

Yes, let's do that.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Okay, so uh I've got Mark Harrison, friend of the show, who says funny, horrific, infuriating, a deeply problematic fave, destined to be taken much too seriously on all fronts. Hello. Um, that ending's not a gotcha, it's the logical extreme of a society totally reliant on tech provided by corporations. Fash Bumble Arena memes is the future that Elon Musk wants. Flawed as it is, it's season one's strongest outing. Callie Cook is amazing, even in constant, unforgiving close-up. Look at that fixed smile, she's fucking awful and great at it. Really love Dylan Holmes Williams direction too, particularly Ricky September's oof inducing death by hole punch. So yeah, strong start.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

Um, I've got from Adam Thomas on Instagram. Thank you. Uh thank you, Adam. Despite the many disappointments of the RTT 2 era, Dot and Bubble has a place in my heart. My son was finally at an age to be watching and understanding Doctor Who, and this was the episode along with the Devil's Chord that really seemed to resonate with him. I even heard him and his mate playing it in the garden, playing Dot and Bubble in the garden. Uh, I enjoyed the Black Mirror aesthetic and slasher film vibe of a bunch of vapid influences being sallowed by hideous slugs, although I'd sussed the reveal as it was so unusual for the show at that time to have an episode with an exclusively white cast, with Shuti being the only person of colour. The expected complaints of heavy-handed messaging were to follow from the usual quarters, but when my then six-year-old son realised why the survivors had refused the doctor's help, he said, That's just rude and stupid, and I couldn't have been prouder. Recent Who has been often criticised for unsubtle messaging, forgetting that this aspect is often for the children viewing. Hopefully the adults should already know. Great that great point.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

That is a good point, actually. Yes, that is a very good point. I've got um Harry Reese Curtis, who's who writes, massive fan of your podcast, boys. Well, thank you very much. Um Dot and Bubble Thank you, mate. Dot and bubble is a superlative mishmash of elements. All of them excel, but don't add up to a larger whole. Shooty cements himself with the depth of a doctor who hasn't encountered this aspect of prejudice before, but it's but one can't help thinking that Russell T. Davis would rather be writing Black Mirror. Um, yeah, it's quite, you know, for a Russell T. Davis dot who it is quite, I suppose, quite bleak, you could say.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Yeah, I mean he has in interviews around about the time he was saying that this was very black. He was using Black Mirror as a kind of the descriptor, you know. Um this is from Artfully Liam on Instagram. Uh Dot and Bubble is an interesting episode. This is a great uh this is a great metaphor. A bit like if Jimmy McGovern spent a weekend in Port Marion with a club 18-30 tour and committed his thoughts to paper. Theatre slugs are an interesting visual, one of the first visible monsters of the Gatwa era being slugs that eat racists. It's certainly a choice and one that sets out a stall for some of the esoteric elements of this version of the format. Gatwa is defined by his absence, an almost presence looming over the episode, creating a decalogue-type atmosphere, mythologizing a character we only just are really getting to know. For an episode entirely reliant upon the strength of its guest cast, it's a testament to the power of Pryor, Andy Pryor, the casting director, that we get both Clayface and an F1 alumni in guest spots. You almost suspect that this may be the Disney Who version of Blink or Planet of the Dead for its glittering thespian alumni. The end sequence is powerful, yes, but the visceral punch of the climactic revelation is derailed somewhat by Lindy's betrayal of September scenes earlier. Yes, good point. Imagine how powerful this would have been had the venal nature of her abhorrent prejudice not been so blatantly telegraphed. Curiously, it showcases much of the magic mouse iteration of the show, good ideas and social commentary, vying for attention and a jigsog puzzle by a creative brain trust who have done all of this before. Far better and far more enthusiastically. Uh I'm excited for Clayface, though.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

John Griffiths says, Dot and Bubble demands you watch it at least twice. You can be forgiven for missing the message the first time around. It's probably the best of all of Shooty's episodes. Blamey. Nice to have you both back. It's nice to be back, John. Thank you. Andrew Blair says Dot and Bubble is a great provocation. Davies loves throwing together horror and comedy, and fluorescent slugs consuming influences delivers that. The finale is subtly seeded, and the term with Ricky September is brutal. Pairing it with the Savages raises the question while the Hartle story clearly means well, it is dated in its attempts to challenge racism. So will the same thing happen with Dot and Bubble? Well, for Paul McAvoy, I think it already has. It yesterday. And is it as bad as a lot of people say? I don't know. It's probably worse than that. The plot being basically um half remembered, half-watched, bot's job of Black Mirror's nosedive. Now, see, I I stopped pretty much stopped watching Black Mirror with a few exceptions after Rory Kaneer fucked that pig in the first episodes. I was like, yeah, that I got what I wanted from it, and you know.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

It's not gonna get better than this.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

For me, I think Black Mirror does from the episodes I have seen since then, like I feel like it is it is a bit like this in the sense that it is yeah, alright, I get it. Like it's not that cle you know what I mean? Like the the metaphors and all that kind of thing aren't always as clever as as Charlie Brooker, who I love dearly, um, but I don't think they're as clever as you think they are. Anyway, sorry. Um this half-remembered, half-watched bots job of Latmere's nose dive isn't the very least serviceable, if not a bit tired, but it's the lol we're actually racist twist at the end that just doesn't work and comes completely out of nowhere. Neither Lindy nor her friends react to the doctor's appearance, recoil or give any snide remarks to indicate how they feel about other people at any point in the story. And if they did, one of the friends goes by gothic Paul, so clearly pigeonholing people based on basic traits or likes is fairly common at fine time anyway. I've seen Lindy's friends being made up of only white people called foreshadowing, but generally people do have friend groups with close cultural or class backgrounds. Having mostly white friends doesn't make anyone racist. Um, it's an incredibly close-minded idea. They just come off as vapid, TikTok obsessed, insufferable early 20-somethings, which I thought was the point. I didn't even get that it was supposed to be a racing until the doctor's overreaction at the end. Now, I want to be careful with saying overreaction because you know who can say how we would react? Because we wouldn't have to react to that. Anyway, um But if the script didn't have the doctor try and re-home the fine-timers, this scene wouldn't have even happened. Almost every other doctor would have fucked off and left them to it and praised them going off to find a new home for themselves. Also, they have green blood for some reason. That's an interesting point. If this was any other doctor. And I was watching it thinking that this time round, and I have some thoughts which we'll we'll maybe dig into in a bit. Um because I I think it's very telling that this was originally gonna but there was a point at which this could have been written for Matt Smith.

SPEAKER_04 24:23

Um Yes, we'll delve into that because I think the social media thing was written for Matt Smith. And then the I don't think the racism bit was well.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

You would hope not. Otherwise, what would it have been? Um Dylan Race. Ah, again, here we go. A truly atrocious episode of Doctor Who legs a Kimbo theatre group being chased around a university campus with CGI so rope and make Cyberon look cutting edge. Having the first episode about the doctor's race being written by Russell T. Davis is a huge mistake. This isn't about racism, it's a cheap plot twist which isn't threaded throughout. People say the microaggressions towards the doctor set up the twist, but Ruby receives just as many, so it doesn't really hold up. And RTD's remarks off screen that the audience should know it's about racism because everyone is white or borderline racist. It's not big, it's not clever, it's a social commentary by someone who doesn't understand what he's commenting on. Fuck this episode.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

Well, uh, I have a rebuttal here from Joe Ford of the Hamster Podcast Empire, and he's gonna take Dylan Reese down to Chinatown. Let me tell maybe poor choice of cinematic quote. Um, but don't listen to Dylan Reese, says Joe. This is a clever episode that waits to see if the penny will drop and makes you question the microaggressive racism that you see in real life all the time. The cleverest thing RTD uh ever did in the second era was to make us emphasise emph empathize, sorry, and laugh uh with his brain dead bimbo and then expose her as a complete monster. The moment she states that her saviour's surname sorry the moment she states what her saviour's surname is floored me. The last scene is Juty Gatler's best and first, uh, and I really dis uh I really dislike RTD too for reasons of taste, intelligence, and horrific over saturation of every scene, but this was a terrific slowburn message show. In turns directorially funny, sweet, shocking, and finally brutally honest. This is our society, and it holds up a mirror to its unpleasantness. Maybe question why you don't like it. And then he's got the little message below. That's quite long, but I mean every word.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

Well, now where do we start?

SPEAKER_04 26:45

Where do we start? Well, where do we start? I mean that's the thing. I sent you a message earlier on going and my head is fucking buzzing about how to approach this because I feel like this episode can I there is very like this is one of the most personal or or or an episode of Doctor Who where it's very difficult to separate personal experience, i.e. the viewing of it, with the clamour, the the the social media or fandom clamour round about it.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

I think I want to jump on jump off from I should say a couple of points that people have raised. So d Mark Harrison makes the point that um the racism isn't a gotcha moment narratively, um it's uh it's a culmination of kind of what Russell T. Davis has been saying about social media. We joked about this earlier off mic, where uh Russell T. Davis says in Doctor Unleashed that yes, they live in a lit they're they're in a literal bubble. Um that's a metaphor, and it's like and it's all and he's not he's not doesn't say that in a kind of like I know I'm being obvious kind of a way. He kind of says it as a kind of mmm, aren't I clever kind of a way. But I do think there is something in the the idea of the bubble, and the scene in which I think one I think the best scene in this, for me anyway, is when the Doctor and Ruby are trying to get Lindy to turn the bubble off so she can look at the room and see what's going on in front of her face. And I think since COVID that has been an increasingly difficult concept for some people, you know, to turn off social media and to actually look at the evidence in front of them. Um so yes, I think Mark is right in his point that because these people live in this bubble with you know all white faces, all kind of rich privileged faces, of course they're gonna reject the doctrine, of course the the stories about racism. I think apart from the initial when you watch it the first time and you see Shuty Gatwa's performance and you and the the gut punch of you know we're not gonna we're not gonna leave with you. Um the second view and I just don't think it hangs together. I don't think it it it sticks to landing in terms of that making that point about social media because I don't think I feel like Russell doesn't and maybe it's just because I l I'm quite fascinated with the political like social media as a political tool and and how it's been used over the past six years in particular. Well, let's say the past ten years from Donald Trump one to Donald Trump two. Um I'm really interested in that and I I listened to a lot of podcasts about it I've read a lot of books about it, and and I'm sure that's not something that preoccupies RTD all that much, but I think there was a there was an opportunity here to make that point about how social media does push people into those lanes. I mean you know, and and look at look at Graham Lineah, but not for too long, because Jesus fucking Christ. It's like hate just kind of squashes you, he's just like a big sort of melted wax effigy of Graham Lennon now.

SPEAKER_04 30:10

Yeah, I mean he was never a good looking boy, but it's like kind of like a homunculus, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Um but you look at Graham Linnahin.

SPEAKER_04 30:17

For God's sake, man. I mean, you've got enough money from Father Ted residuals to get yourself a decent haircut. What's going on?

SPEAKER_01 30:22

Like he's worried about trans barbers. Um but so he you know he starts off with this um anti-trans rhetoric, and because he gets ostracized, like all his comedy mates turn their backs on him, uh he gets thrown off Twitter for a while until Musk buys it back and buys it and gives him his account back, I should say. Um but he then starts you know picking other other kind of red button topics that he has to kind of be aligned with to kind of keep up. Yeah, he's on anti-Semitism now. Yeah, he's on that now. Um and it's like he's he's gotta kind of keep this, he's gotta kinda keep those kind of far right influencers, you know, on his side. So you know, he will sort of say stuff that you would imagine in the 90s Gremlin Hen would not that Gremlin Hen would not really hold truck with. Um so you know, there's a there's loads of stuff I think that is really interesting to do that this doesn't do, it's quite you know, it's it's not so much black mirror as kind of pastel compact.

SPEAKER_04 31:43

Yeah, that's uh that's that's great as an opposite. Tell you what, let's also start at this point as well. Did you enjoy it, Mark?

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Um, I did at the time. I did at the time, I really enjoyed it at the time. I I remember there was a point it it starts off, and you're like, Jesus. This is like Russell T. Davis at his most you know, he has this kind of thing of like kind of fucking this weird naming convention for characters, and they're just like ridiculous names, and these kind of incredibly heightened performances, and then about five, ten minutes in, I go, Oh right, this is the point. I'm supposed to fucking hate these people. That's fine, I'm into this, let's go. Really enjoyed it. Second time around, I think because I was watching it more critically, uh I wasn't there's a lot of stuff that's really good in this, but I wasn't as invested, I didn't enjoy it as much when I kind of re-watch. How about you?

SPEAKER_04 32:42

Yeah, no, I did enjoy it. Um I well, okay. So the first time around, you know, we're obviously back in the old days where uh you this dropped at midnight, uh, and if you were had any kind of social media presence, you you inevitably uh saw a spoiler or or inferred a spoiler from what people were talking about. So the idea that this was a big racist society, I knew about going into it, but I still enjoyed it. Like I still uh I still I thought Callie Cook was really good. Um I thought uh the boy playing Ricky Sylvester, Rick No, it's not, it's Ricky September. I thought he was pretty good. Uh and there was there was some talk about him, you know, being like a wonderful Dr.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Surrogate, you know, being very um emotionally deft and sensitive, uh playing those guiding those scenes of him being a guide to uh to the point where Elizabeth Sandifer made this point that Ricky Um September, because they'd read the the fact that it was a racist uh episode about racism before it had gone out, that they'd assumed Ricky Sylvet uh Ricky September Fucking hell, what sort of that they'd assumed Ricky September was some kind of like that it was the doctor wearing a kind of holographic costume to kind of make the point and then obviously he turns up in real life and you realise it's not. But in uh but even before that, when I'd first read the synopsis and it didn't mention the Doctor and Ruby, I was like, oh Ricky S R Ricky September, that Ruby Sunday. Or maybe like she's kind of pretending to be this hot guy to you know do some some kind of you know break into the the thing and sort of save the day. But no, it's just a guy, it's just a handsome lad. Just a handsome lad who's read some books and probably isn't racist. We hope. I think that's what everybody kind of hopes.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

That's what they hope, and it's never stated if he is or not. I I kind of wish they would have taken a stance on that. He's got a I I suppose he's a decent enough person, but he lives in that society, so he's got to be in some way.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

But then also he's rejected the bubble, hasn't he? He just uses it to post his videos, and then the rest of the time he wants the city, he reads books.

SPEAKER_04 35:01

So he is using it. He's just he's he it's it doesn't have him in in the kind of addictive way it has for everyone else, but he's still using it, he's still pumping his shit onto the internet, says the guy recording a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Yeah, I know I I I just recently read Um Careless People by Sarah Wynne Williams, which is about her time working for Meta Facebook, and uh I finished the book going fucking hell, I should delete my Facebook and Instagram and WhatsApp. And I haven't done that, I'm not gonna do that, am I? Let's be honest. I'm a fucking slave just like the rest of us.

SPEAKER_04 35:38

Uh yeah because it's like it's fun, like to some degree it's fun. Okay, let me I'm just gonna tell ya the major thoughts I have. I I like this um fine, I like it fine enough. Um the two things that I think about it, um the first one being I enjoyed it when I first watched it, and then I switched over to Doctor Who Unleash and watched that, and then didn't like Dot and Bubble because as you kind of started to introduce earlier on the hectoring tone of Russell T. Davis um for listeners, it's uh you don't have to watch the whole thing, but the first maybe ten minutes of the Doctor Who unreleased uh unleashed related to this episode um has RTD talking about um that you should be asking questions when watching this about why there are no black faces? How how quickly do you assess that? Do you spot that? And then how does that make you feel? How does that set you off? And he says it in such a way, whilst not saying the actual words, but making the suggestion that if you don't very quickly wonder why there's not people of colour as part of that uh bubble, then then you are somehow as to why that is.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

I think he says that didn't he? Because you need to ask you to ask where that is.

SPEAKER_04 37:19

Yeah. And I just feel like maybe don't uh lecture people and make people feel bad about the thing that they enjoy. Particularly since this is Doctor Who. And let me explain by that. That's not just a cover all kind of oh, it's a family show. It's not there could be any number of reasons, like logical story reasons that do not relate to racism that mean that an all-white caste is is is necessary. Um it's green blood. So it's not a human colony. These are aliens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's not overtly said that these are humans. So you know, firstly, there's a whole different culture and social ecosystem, presumably there at work. Um secondly, is it the future? Is it the past? We we we don't really know. So uh you know, if it's an like what stage of development of a humans uh or an alien society is this in? Um it is social media. Somebody said it in the the list of correspondence. People generally just kind of hang out with the kind of folks that are nearby. Also, I would say as well that like looking at that screen, I didn't immediately get social media from it. Like we're only a couple of years away, a couple of years away from um fucking everyone doing Zoom quizzes during a lot of people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what did that look like?

SPEAKER_01 38:48

It just entertainment shows, you know, where you just had like massive screens of audience members silently clapping because Zoom would you know mute the mute the clapping noise.

SPEAKER_04 38:58

Yeah. But when you're doing these zooms, who are you doing them with? Well, it's friends, it's generally family, it's all this like it's ever like it's ever people just look like you and are you and that kind of stuff. So for me to immediately not know and I did notice there was no people of colour, but like that had been flagged to me on social media as a spoiler, but also I was like, okay, well, presumably the production has meant it to be like that, and there will be reasons, right? Don't then when I turn over to the making of TV show, you tell me that I'm a fucking arthole because because because I didn't immediately challenge myself about my social perception, like and it's it's it's not just this. I think people were like I think people got really annoyed about being fucking told that their uh you know attitude to Davros was incorrect, and you know, like come on mate, like I would I will maintain that if this if Doctor Who had survived into the 90s and they'd done this show back then, it would have been considered one of the great episodes of Doctor Who, but now it felt a little dated, and I think it was presented whilst very worthy in a very mean-spirited kind of way. Um and I don't think I'm not willing to learn and self-analyse and try to be better, and I probably shouldn't take to heart you know what Russell T. Davis said, but it did kind of affect my enjoyment and my analysis and perception of the of the episode. Um that probably makes me sound like a white cunt.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

No, but I don't think it does.

SPEAKER_04 40:41

I honestly don't mean it, because I think what we'll both agree later on is that we simply don't have the internal social mechanism or experience to be able to fully appreciate what the black experience is like.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

And neither does Russell T. Davis, though.

SPEAKER_04 40:57

Well, yes, okay, yes. But me getting hung up about not enjoying how the message was delivered to me because I felt a bit kind of put out as a white Doctor Who mad. Yeah, I do sound like I can't, and I appreciate that, and I'm sorry about that. I was just trying to walk through the thought, and and and hopefully this doesn't get taken out of context.

SPEAKER_01 41:18

But I'm the editor, no, I mean okay. Um you look, you're absolutely right, and today um I tried to I this afternoon I tried to get some perspectives from fans who are black or fans of colour uh on this episode. Uh because I think it's all very well, you know, our listener correspondence predominantly white, I'm gonna say. That so it's all very well for us to kind of give our take on Dot and Bubble. I th I kind of wanted to kind of sort of find some other perspectives. And uh Crystal D, funnily enough, uh when she this was the series in which Crystal was not um sort of part part, she'd been kind of bumped off of the Doctor Who podcast in favour of some influencers. Ironic given what we're talking about. Um and she was kind of doing her own YouTube thing. I did a YouTube uh review of Doctor Bubble with a guy called David Chipaku Paku, who is a personal colour, a Doctor Who fan, and a writer, and he is really good on on that that point about Russell T. Davis coming out and saying, Well, you know, if there's if you if you're not questioning why there's there's no white faces, he kind of goes, That's all well and good, but why are there no black executive producers on the show? Why is there no black directors on this episode? Why is the episode written by a white guy? Why is the whole writer's room for series one white? Why have we got the first black doctor and we've got white writers? We we aren't opening the doors to black writers for this series. Like it's so it's it's all kind of it all just rings very, very hollow. Um I think and I think that's it, that's why like I think it's I think there are you're absolutely right, there are people that would take Rossy T. Davis saying that and be like, don't you fucking tell me what to do? But actually I think my annoyance with it is it's such bollocks Because he doesn't he doesn't practice what he preaches ultimately, you know. Um I just think it it's yeah, why isn't he reflecting on the fact that and also why is he not reflecting on the fact so there it's interesting in that unleashed where he talks about yeah we shoot his first day and we give him a scene in which a bunch of racists refuse to travel in the TARDIS with him.

SPEAKER_04 43:50

Yeah, that's mental for that guy.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Like and they he Imagine that's your first I handed him the scripts and I was a bit nervous and we talked about rescheduling it, um Uh and then we decided we would just go ahead and and do it. Now, I really hope the Wii in that includes Shootie Gatwa. But I'm not sure. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_07 44:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Because the way he tells that story is he handed the script to Shooty. Shootie performed it brilliantly on the day. And there's a kind of nebulous production Wii that may or may not include him. That makes me go, well, I hope he read it. He goes, Yeah, yeah, no, that's you know, that's fine. I'm happy to do it. I get I kind of get a sense that's probably the case from from Confident Air from his interview in the episodes, but it it's also a bit like Jesus Christ. Really, that's what we're starting the guy off with.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

Yeah, it's nuts.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Um because there's another thing, there's a really good um I'm gonna link to it in the show notes by a guy called Jake Wiafe. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, so I apologize if if I am. Um and he's written a great sort of takedown of of the episodes and of Russell T. Davis's kind of handling of of black characters, and he sort of says something I think which is very interesting that kind of talks about maybe the the differing viewpoints of a Doctor Who fan watching Dr. Bobbles dependent on their skin colour and their background. So he says, um, the problem for me is that when I see a character who looks like me face trauma, brutality, or racism, I don't come away from it thinking any more deeply about what I've seen. I just feel a bit shit. While white liberal viewers are allowed to feel like good allies for not looking away and allowing themselves to be taught a real lesson about the existence of racism. Viewers of colour don't really get anything out of the deal other than a shitty feeling. We don't need to see people who look like us be treated poorly to learn a lesson about racism, and we didn't particularly ask for it to be tackled in this way. Nor are we consulted or allowed to give feedback on the most effective and sensitive way to depict it. The best we could do is avoid depictions that are particularly upsetting and just kind of firm it when we're unable to do so. Um and kind of reading reading that and kind of thinking about yeah asking Shut Y Gatawa to do that on his first day, I hope I really hope he wasn't and he must have been, but I really hope he was included in those conversations. And I really hope he made that decision an informed decision, and he wanted to do it rather than kind of that thing of like, well, I've kind of fucked him around a bit because of Netflix delaying sex education, so I better just stick to the schedule and and do this thing, you know.

SPEAKER_04 46:41

Um that that essay that you shared, um, and we'll stick it in the show notes because it is worth a read. It really made me think about the number one thing that I think is missing from this episode, um, which is because the writer mentions it, he says uh a lot of the choices are made because the Russell T. Davis thinks that the like the doctor is not a black man, he is a an alien who's chosen to it's a cosmetic change, like to look like a black guy, and what there isn't at the end of this is any reflection by the doctor, because uh I think we're now at a stage in Doctor Who where we don't really buy the idea that regeneration is always haphazard and random in the way that it was often presented to us. There is very definitely either a a personal choice, or uh, in the case of a lot of kind of RTD and Moffat and Chibnolera, Doctor Who, or we visited it recently, uh Douglas Adams's take on Romana's regeneration. It's a it's a personal choice to look a particular way, or to have that particular way foisted on you for way back in 1969 in the war games, the Time Lords presented options to the doctor of how to look. So it's not just a random thing. So, why did the doctor choose to look like a black man? And if it was simply to Because there's a there's a moment in thin ice with Peter Capaldi and Pearl Mackie. I can't remember exactly what the dialogue is. I should have looked this up, but there's a moment where Pearl challenges him on being white and able to move back and forward in time, whilst Sheif has a trepidation about it. And there's a moment where Capaldi does some really great acting where he looks around and it's like for the first moment he's looking at the universe. This is when they arrive just at the Frost Fair and he's looking at the universe and considering that if he looked a different way he might encounter a whole new universe. The over the kind of the umbrella themes for that doctor being that he's getting older, he's getting a little more bored, he's kind of there's a little tiredness there. How could he experience the universe differently? So fast fast forward to him regenerating uh as a black man. Why did he why did he choose that? Did he choose that and also being a woman with Jodie Whitaker because he thought the universe would be a little more different, he would have new adventures, he would see it in a different perspective that way, and that's why he did those last two.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Morphe kind of writes that in Twice Upon a Time, doesn't he? He kind of writes that thing of like the dot at the in Twice Upon a Time, the doctor's knackered and like he's done with saving the universe and he just wants to die, and then it's about learning that actually he needs a new perspective on the universe, and so then he regenerates in his Jody Worker.

SPEAKER_04 49:49

So if the doctor has done this, then those people in fine time die not just because they're racist, but also because the hubrist of the doctor, like he's chosen to adopt a black face, but he's not paid any due or respect to the experiences or the traumas or the lives behind what choosing a black face would mean. And so, from that point of view, I thought this should be like that, should not be the end of it, and we all feel a little bad and determined that we're gonna choose different things in our life. There should have been another episode after that where he really sits down and thinks about why he chose that face. Yeah, what does what is what does a black man around the universe mean? Probably nothing to some places, probably everything to some other places. How is that gonna change his experience and how is he going to um uh honour the fact that rather than just making a cosmetic choice because he thought it'd be a bit more fun, young and lively, um how is that gonna affect his life and other lives, lives of his companions, the lives of people he's gonna try and save, and in that way really reflect something that a minority audience of Doctor Who is gonna respond to rather than, as the writer has said, just feel a bit shit when bad stuff happens my way, you know. Like if you're gonna talk about it, if you're gonna do it, if you're gonna acknowledge it, do it. Don't just fob it off.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

We get the story in the engine, which I think it's inferred that the doctor's been travelling around for a while and realises he can't quite travel like he used to. Yeah. And so the barber shop is a is a safe place for him and a place of comfort. So there is a there there is a uh they touch on it, and I think Story in the Engine is is one of my favourites of of the Shut Yagawa era because it it it actually it does the witchfinders thing of goes, alright well okay the doctor's the doctor's no longer you know a white man. So what does this mean?

SPEAKER_04 52:03

You know, um and it and it does that so yeah again I feel like I've I've said something that I need to walk back or apologise for. I guess the general thought is that well, Shutugawa is he black man, the doctor is is not, he's an alien that takes on many different faces, yes, yeah. And so you should get like if you're gonna make that choice, I think you should r really reflect reflect the lived experiences and the bad as well as the good with which the audience are are are tuning in for this new ambassador of the show.

unknown 52:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:43

I I honestly I feel like I've said something terrible and I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

No no no no I don't think you have. I mean I d I you know I don't know, maybe you have uh no but I don't think so. I think um I yeah, because also the other point he makes is is that the doctor's kind of offering to save those people because that's what the a previous doctor would have done. And a previous doctor they would have gotten a TARDIS with him is the point, but there's no pushback there. There's no pushback where the companion goes, Do you really want to save these people? They're racist and horrible. Yeah, you know, so it doesn't even add an extra dimension. Which brings me to my next kind of point about the racism element of it. Because the thing that um I tried to think about the microaggressions, of which there there certainly are, you know, there that there is. Um but I was also kind of thinking, like, well, okay, well, how would this episode have played out if it was if it was Matt Smith? Because this originally started life as a pitch. Stephen Moffitt had asked RTD, you know, would you come come back? Come on, come back and write an episode. And he'd said to him this was kind of what he was thinking, but it never kind of came to anything. Um and the only bit really that I think Well, there's maybe two bits, but I think one bit you could easily just say to David Tennant or Matt Smith or Peter Capaldi, and it would be fine. Um there's the bit where she says, um, Oh, you're the guy from earlier, I thought you all just looked the same. There's that bit. And then there's he was horrible, he was so rude. Now like I say, I could see that being delivered to Shoot Y Gatwa to I'm sorry, uh it is delivered to Shooty Gatwa. I could see that being delivered to Peter Capaldi or David Tennant or Matt Smith, and it kind of still having the same impact. What's interesting is uh I remember um just after COVID working working in the theatre and um there was an usher who was young black guy, he told a customer to basically to be quiet because she was fucking yapping all the way through a Darren Brown show. Very politely asked her, said, Look, you know, like can you need to leave? Um if you know if you don't keep talking because it's like really disrupting the show and like you know, be respectful of everybody, blah blah blah blah. Uh she kicked off and she used the word uh intimidating that this guy was intimidating. And I remember him saying that, and I remember kind of getting getting a feeling that you know she probably wouldn't have said that if say I'd gone in and asked her to leave Do you know what I mean? Like there's there's choices of words sometimes that I think people kind of fling around. So th there is there is stuff like that. But I do think that people shouldn't be beating themselves up because they don't pick up on the microaggressions for two reasons. I think a lot of it is framed as this is a very closed community, it's an exclusive community, um they don't want people breaking into their bubble on you know, without consent because there's you're not on my friends list, all that kind of thing. Um so yeah, if Matt Smith had done this episode, I think a lot of that dialogue would all still be in there. Yes, it would have a different edge in in the more explicit bits, but I don't think it's the big oh I'm so clever talking about microaggressions, because I don't think I don't think Russell T. Davis Well I know I know Russell T. Davis doesn't have the livid experience to be able to kind of give those microaggressions any real heft. Like, for example, there's a bit where uh Lindy calls the police, um, and when I was watching it against it, I was like, oh fuck, okay, that's quite a big reference back to I think it was something that happened during COVID. There was a woman in America who called the police on this black guy, and I can't remember the the ins and outs of it, but it was over nothing. It was over absolutely nothing. She called the police, the police turned up, it was a whole big deal.

SPEAKER_04 57:05

Was it she was walking her dog in Central Park and like a guy just kind of walked by in uh with his hood up or something, like another one you're talking about?

SPEAKER_01 57:15

She called the police and said she felt threatened. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:17

Classic Karen stuff.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

And so I assumed, oh shit, we're going there. But no, she's calling the police because the slugs. So you know, and then it's like, well, am I the fucking racist for thinking that, or am I just or am I giving Russell T. Davis too much credit? Like, what's what what am I supposed to feel at that moment, you know?

SPEAKER_04 57:37

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the line he's not as stupid as he looks, uh, is uh a hundred percent that was written for Matt Smith.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Like Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:48

Um although it is quite glaring when you hear it in relating to shoot your gap. It's also like impeccably cool. Well, yes, I know, but like when you're looking at the two sorts of doctors, one is very whimsical and silly, and the other is in like impecc impeccably cool. Um the the I I mean the idea of Dot and Bubble, I think, back in 2010 was purely about social media, which would make sense because it does feel slightly dated, it would feel less so a little more current back 15 years ago, 16 years ago. Um, and in doing the doing the reading for this, uh uh a lot of the the racial aspect came from the announcement of Shoutigatwa being far in advance of actual production of Doctor Who, um allowing there to be a lot more of a gauge of the public's reception to that actor, and of course there's always the there was the unsavouriness about it, and it was like R T D was like, okay, well, it's time to address it then. And a lot of people were making the statement like, Well, if he's if he's a black guy, how is he going to be able to trav travel back in time? Like, it's a no-go area for anyone that's not white. Um, his idea, his response was, Well, why did they just think uh in the past it could also be in the future as well? So he thought the the the the correct the correct rebuttal to that is uh well let's also drain all hope from the future as well.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Well, because I remember there was a great there was a great interview with Shuty Gatwa um which I think addressed that. Um I think it was just before the series started, and I think it was maybe in that Vogue No, it wasn't Vogue, was it? It was Vanity Variety. I knew it was I knew it was at the game of the V. I think it was that big variety review he did. And um he kind of talked about going back to Africa, like pre-colonial Africa where it was this thriving country before you know Britain had sort of landed and started sort of packing people off on boats and kind of exploring that, you know. Like there are ways to tell Doctor Who stories featuring the first black doctor that aren't about black pain. I think you know that's that's a thing. Um and I feel like if we'd had a more diverse lighting team in season one, somebody might have pitched that as a kind of more positive way to kind of explore and we do, like I say, we do eventually get it, but I would argue we should have maybe had a bit more of it um over those sort of 18 episodes. Um yeah, it just it just feels bit simplistic. Yeah, it's great. Adam's Adam Sun has has like picked up on it and picked up how destructive because ultimately the message is racism's incredibly destructive. But I think also like I really think with the social media thing it kind of lets social media off the hook. Cause there's a thing I I went to anti-racism training, not because uh there was an incident, I was being trained to be anti-racist, you know, as I kind of basically kind of talk about kind of the things you can do to be an ally and you you know and and sort of to support people. And the woman running the the course had kind of said, you know, like I when I have to so she lives in Middlesbrough, there was a massive riots in Middlesbrough following Southport. Um and she's like I go past these guys and I don't think they're idiots I think someone's ha someone's got a vested interest in making them act in that way. Absolutely and kind of weaponizing that that hatred and that prejudice. And I don't think this it has it has a fucking open goal, you know. It it's talking about social media, it's talking about racism, and it doesn't at any point drill down into the algorithms, the way that these things are pushed on people, the way that um that's monetized, you know, the the way that makes people money. None of that is is touched on. The only kind of I guess comment is that well social media has got sick of these fucking cunts as well, because it started bumping them off alphabetically. That's a funny idea, you know. Like it's kind of social media's learned to hate because of its user base, and so therefore it's it's kind of wiping them out. Um yeah, I just think there was uh there's just a sharper version of this, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:40

Yeah, you're right. I I I it uh it's too it seems like it's two stories stuck together. I don't get quite quite the takedown of social media as the chief feeder of the explosive kind of ending that we get. Um and another reason I didn't feel that bad about not necessarily seeing people of colour in you know the the the bubble is because I thought it was just a choice by the production. Like all of those were just the most irritating white people. Why would you why would you want to tarnish any people of colour with that kind of behaviour? If anything, there was there was there was more Scottish people in there than um that I I detested.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

I did uh I did think that Russell T. Davis had kind of run out of names by the end. So we've got you know Cooper Mercy, yeah. We've got Lind Lindy Pepper Bean, Ricky September, Cooper Mercy, Blake Very Blue, Gothic Paul, Hoochie Pie, Alan K. Sullivan.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:46

I feel like we've talked a lot. I feel there's probably more to say. I don't know what that is. I just I think we've got to the the root of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:57

It's okay, look. Is it worthy? Yes, of course. Um a lot of things in what Adam Thomas said in his uh correspondence fell into place. There was there was needfulness in it being as simple as it was. I think it also needed to be fairly simple in uh that you don't want to give away the ending until the ending, it's something you've got to it's got to sneak up on you. That's why the microaggressions are just that, rather than anything more real-world, harsh, and overt. Um I think the performances are great. I think Callie Cook is wonderful being awful, uh, but giving it heart as well. As a first scene, shoot you got what amazingly. I mean, yeah. Divorcing what we've said about the themes around it, the actual welly he gives it is great, so charismatic.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

Millie Gibson's really good, and um I think Mark Harrison pointed this out at the time, but David uh Chipakapaku pointed this out as well. The way Millie Gibson plays that, the way she kind of clocks what's happening first, because you know she's been raised by two black women and she's no doubt experienced well, not necessarily not experienced it, but kind of seen seen that kind of prejudice first hand. And it's very subtle, but I think actually that reading of of her performance in that is is yeah, I think pretty spot on.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:23

I think as an actor, she's very generous as well. Like she completely turns her head away from the camera so that whatever she's doing is not distracting from Shooty's performance, which is also, I suppose, a nice way to welcome somebody to the production as well. Presumably she's been working on it a lot, a lot more than yeah. I quite like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:43

I also think she's very funny in this as well. I love the bit where I love her delivery of you've still got battery problems. Like that's that's great.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:53

That's great. Um, there is a lot definitely to recommend here. And I guess every single person is gonna have a different take. And every single person, probably in every single viewing, will have a different idea. Does that make it really great then? As a piece of art, its nature is constantly changing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:20

I think it is flawed. I think it's very flawed. I don't think it coheres as well as Russell T. Davis thinks it does. I do think it has. I do think it's a decent Doctor Who story about where we find ourselves at the moment with social media and with the effects of social media. But I don't think it goes nearly far enough into either topic, either social media or racism, or the you know the really well documented kind of correlation between those two things. Um at the time I felt it was the most interesting script Russell had done. Like it was I think I remember thinking that when it went out, I was like, yeah, he's not come back to just do the same old shit again. Like, yeah, maybe Space Babies was a bit, you know, trad. But devil's cord. Because obviously he did Devil's Cord, then we had boom. Yeah. And then we had, you know, 73 yards, and then we had this. And I was like, he's th this is not the Russell T. Davis that was kind of format, format, format in in the sort of early 2000s. Um I still feel that. I still feel that that he took a swing. I don't necessarily think I don't think he was necessarily the guy that should have been taking that particular swing. But I I think it is Yeah, I think I yeah, I think it's it I think he should be lauded for not staying in his kind of his lane, I guess. In terms of the in terms of the format of it, I want to say, kind of in terms of doing the kind of Doctor Light episodes and the kind of far future society and the social media commentary and stuff like that. Um I think all of that stuff isn't something I would necessarily think of when I think of Russell T. Davis as a Doctor Who writer. So that's good, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:20

Okay, so it was a success then. It was worthy, I think, is maybe the best way.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:28

Yeah, yeah. But in in but you know, I think that you can you worthy can be uh worthy can be an insult as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:34

No, I mean it and I mean it's a bit of both. I think the heart was in the right place.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:39

I think the heart's in the right place, yes. I think that's that's fair.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:46

Anyway, right, well let's take a wee break. And uh Dr. P. Dr. P's been in touch. I need to empty my blanket, so yeah, let's take a break.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:55

It's been in touch. Phenomenal. What a guy. I want to see Dr. P at like a fucking Hooverville or something like that. I'd get his autograph.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:07

Yeah, well, yeah. I'll I will Steve Hatcher, if you're listening, I will host a panel with Dr. P. Alright. Put it out there.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:17

Alright, let's take a break, and then we'll be back for the savages. Okay, we're back. And it's the Savages. That's what we've paired with Dot and Bubble. Uh, let's go straight to the stats. Uh, so The Savages was written by Ian Stuart Black and directed by Christopher Barry, script editor, Jerry Davis, producer Innes Lloyd, and it was broadcast between the 28th of May 1966 and the 18th of June 1966. So, as we were recording this, we're maybe about uh 10 days away from the 60th anniversary of The Savages. And it was watched by 4.8, 5.65, and 4.5 million viewers uh for each respective uh episodes of this four-part story. Um that is the stats.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:08

Were they not the lowest ratings or something for the ratings were really low, weren't they, compared to other Doctor Who at that point?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:18

Yeah. The programme partially regained its audience share lost during the gunfighters, though overall viewership remained low, dropping below the gunfighters with an average of 4.975 million across all four episodes, um, and uh a nadir of four point five million for the final part, the lowest figure since the programme's first episode in 1963. However, and I guess this is worth saying straight out, uh The Savages does have a few um not firsts, but uh important landmarks in Doctor Who. Uh yes, yeah. Uh this is the first one, uh, not to have episode titles, uh just to have episode one, episode two. That we we got rid of that with uh the final episode title, The OK Corral, in the previous story, The Gunfighters.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:04

Toby Hadock makes a lovely joke on the Savages documentary where he says uh episode titles died at the O.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:11

Apparently, Ennis Lloyd thought uh it was better just to give them numbers because people then could definitively say, ah, this is a new adventure beginning. Um this is also the first time that Doctor Who has used a uh a quarry as an alien landscape. Yeah. We've had a quarry before in the Dalek invasion of Earth, but this is the first place where we've actually and already according to kind of more contemporary reaction, it already feels old and outdated as a way of doing alien planets, and of course, I had completely forgotten about this right up until it happened. Uh, but this is the this is um uh Stephen's goodbye to Doctor Who, Peter Purvis's goodbye as come as a as a companion. Uh so you'd feel like there'd be a lot to talk about with this.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

I think there is. Um, but the funny thing is, there's not a lot of production paperwork, there's not a lot of it that um obviously none of the episodes exist. There's scraps of footage, um, and none of the actors seem to be able to remember doing it until they're sort of prodded by Toby Haydock in the documentary. Um and listener correspondence uh seems to back that up. But before the listener correspondence, it's time for the welcome return, because we haven't done it for K9 and Company. Uh the welcome return of Degsy's Where Did It Come Game. Dexy's Where did it come game? So, Benworth, the Savages. Where do you think the Savages comes?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:50

Ooh, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:52

Yeah, not a lot of people bearing in mind they can't can remember.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:54

Well, no one can remember, but I think whenever people do give it time, it is not bad. So I'm gonna say 220.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

You're probably right, because the you know, it's at this point in 2013 it had been animated, the only way you could uh approach it was telesnaps. Or had the audiobook come out by then? I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um but you had the target, you had the target novelization at the very least. Um but I think also people yeah. I'm gonna go 209. Okay. Um I think we'll go go 209. Um and let's find out which of us is the closest. One point for the closest, three points for a direct hit, and let's find out who's got either of those as I open the golden envelope. So the Dexestiel Funmaker says I know 241. The sandwiches are number one hundred and ninety-seven. Um, it's between the Celestial Toy Maker at 196 and Colony in Space at 198. What's that box at? Um I think it's easier than most this time around. Uh yeah, I mean Derek suggests things are not as they seem, which is true. There's a bit of that.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:28

Oh, yeah. A lot of double crossing that goes on in all of those, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:14:33

There is, yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:34

Double cross box. No, that makes it sound like a Nazi thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:37

Um quarries? There's no quarry in the Celestial Toy Maker, I suppose.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:41

There's not, but the Celestial Toymaker is making quarry out of the doctor and his companions. Nice. Look, at any rate, if somebody showed up with those three stories, you'd be like, get off of my front porch now. Leave. How did you even get this addressed? I don't lost, nobody would thank you for returning. That's the box set. Actually, I quite like calling in space that.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:19

Okay, well, it's time for the second time this episode for Degsi's What is it game? So I got a point last time around. Let's let's hope Ben gets a point this time round, although I've looked at what he's got and I'm not entirely convinced.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:48

Oh, right, okay. Unless he's crept into my house and photographed something I have, I'm probably not gonna I'm probably not gonna get this. I think listeners will understand this by now. I don't know what the score is.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:02

I'm assuming you're quite considerably in the Um But yes, it's my turn to guess. Uh so the category, I believe, is toys and games, is that right?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:14

Yes it is. Yes it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:16

Is it a toy?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:18

Uh no.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:20

So it's a game. Okay. Is it new series related?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:25

Right. Is it is it like card game related? Is it like a card game?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:32

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:33

Is it a board game?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:35

Yes it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:36

Okay, oh god, right, okay, there's loads of them. I'm gonna narrow it down to what era this is. Okay, so is it like RTD era?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:45

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:46

So is it Morpha era?

SPEAKER_06 1:16:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:49

Right. Oh, there was a game. Is it like is it an existing game that's got like a Doctor Who twist on it? Yes. Okay. Is it Doctor Who Monopoly?

SPEAKER_06 1:17:02

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:03

I don't even know if Doctor Who Monopoly exists. I don't even know what Doctor Who Monopoly would look like. I think it does exist. But then are you like putting like £600 on the death zone on Gallifrey or something like that?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:16

Yeah, what are the trade stations you're buying?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:18

Yeah, the the powerless state. You can buy what are you building?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:22

What are you building on stuff? Yeah. Little biodomes or some shit, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:26

Yeah. I mean chess. Is it Doctor Who chess?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:30

Uh it is not.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:32

I feel like that existed as well, but in like in the 90s and it was like hundreds of pounds, and I always used to see it advertised in Doctor Who magazine. Do you know what I mean? Like I feel like that was a thing that existed.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:43

With like the fourth doctor as the king. Ah, and it was like proper like canines as pawns, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:50

Yeah, things like that. Yeah, yeah, the dialects with the pawns on the other, yeah. Anyway, I don't know if that was a thing. It feels like it was a thing. Uh okay, so Doctor Who twists on a game, it's not chess, it's not Monopoly. Is it Why do I think this was a thing? It's not like Doctor Who operation, is it?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:10

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:11

Like you're like pulling bits out of a Dalek or something. That had to be a thing. It was lawless in the Morpha era. Lawless. There's all sorts of magic.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:21

It is. Yeah, it is lawless.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:23

Oh, it is what the game is is No, no, sorry, it's not.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:26

It's just like this is just gonna be like you're onto it. You just have to say the name of games.

unknown 1:18:34

Oh fuck hell.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:35

I'm trying to think of like dot board games that would like fit a kind of is it like Doctor Who Risk?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:41

Amazing. Ten questions. You got it.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:43

That's exactly what it is. Yes, Doctor Who Risk. Uh, specifically the Dalek invasion of Earth.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:51

See, this is what happens when I when I play the game not having had a beer before we do the recording. Umgratulations, Mark.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:02

Um I'm not looking forward to mine. Um yeah, yours is hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:10

Sorry.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:12

I I didn't think you could see with a camera.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:18

Toys and games.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:20

Is it a toy?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:22

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:23

So is it a game?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:27

Is it a board game?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:29

Jesus Christ. What I can tell you is it goes for £516.69 on eBay.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:35

Oh, yummy.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:37

Oh right. Okay. Right. Okay, I think I know what this is. No, it's not a board game.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:45

It's not a board game.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:46

But it is a but it is a game.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:47

Okay, is that a card game?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:50

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:51

No. It's not a board game. It's not a card game. Well, okay, is it classic series?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:58

And classic series during the classic series.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:04

Okay. So is it sixties?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:08

It is sixties.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:09

Oh my god, okay, so fucking hell, what were they doing back then? Um it's not a board game. It's not a card game. What other games are there? Think back to my childhood. What did I enjoy? Not much.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:29

What did you enjoy in your childhood in the 1980s?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:31

What did I like in my what did I like in my childhood that I can um okay, uh is it like well, it's not gonna be a video game, you're fucking moron. Like it's um uh is it is but you did you get it off of like the back of some cereal or some shit?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:50

Uh well no, I think it was something you would buy, but it's also the sort of thing that I do remember seeing in like serial packets or like like sort of like the beano. You know, it's the sort of thing I I've I've definitely seen a fix to the front of a comic at some point in my childhood.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:11

Oh my god, okay. So it's one of the like okay, so it's like a fucking little plastic nonsense or something like that. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:17

Um little plastic nonsense is a good, yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:20

Okay, so it's a little plastic, okay. Is it like um is it is it based around like a Doctor Who baddie?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:30

Okay. Is is that baddy a Dalek?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:33

Well what else would that would it be? Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:35

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:36

They were trying to fucking that's true, they were trying to play the Zarbie.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:40

The Zarbie Web Planet shite. So okay, so something to do with Daleks, it's not a board game, uh, it's just a little fucking plastic hojima jink. Um is it like a Dalek uh like has it got like a kind of little kind of pullback and kind of little wheel component to it?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:03

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:04

No. Uh can you open it up in any way, like a little polypocket type of house thing?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:10

Um I think if you did the game would be ruined.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:13

The game would be ruined, okay. So something okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:16

Is it like um you know like a you know like a hungry hungry hippos but with like dialects?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:24

No, but um what would that look like and why can't I play it right now?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:29

Is it okay?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:32

Um Is it is it like have any of the questions that you asked me about your game uh relevant to my game?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:47

Um I mean in the sense that just I'm saying that's a no then. That's that's a no then that's gonna send you down a fucking dark alley because I would say yes, but then you're gonna be like, oh well then it's gonna be a board game that which isn't really true, but it's like it's it's a thing that it's a thing that you could put fucking anything on. So it's an existing thing that has been given a dot tree twist, but I wouldn't but it's not like a existing board game or anything, but it's a it's a type of toy slash game that that people like a like a dialek ball and cup. No, but think balls.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:24

Think balls. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:27

Which uh gentlemen, you should always be thinking of. Always check your balls. And this message has been brought to you by the uh Tessic the Cancer Awareness Charity.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:36

Yeah, you getting in the shower? Have a feel. That's my advice.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:43

Um what a segue. Uh okay, four questions left. Um think balls, think dialeks, think is it like uh you know, like a like a dialek uh little bowling set?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:00

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:02

Like just a dialek ball, like a ball with a dialek on it. Just a kickabout EV ball with a dialek picture on it.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:07

No, certainly not. Um is it a dialek um fuck, okay?

SPEAKER_04 1:24:19

What would be a thing that it's like a dialek and a water pistol? No, that's nothing to do with balls. It fires balls. A Dalek like fast final question. Is it a Dalek Wii gun that fires balls?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:32

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:33

What it is well done me. I mean, taking part is the prize. I'm a winner from just taking part.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:40

Is the uh Doctor and the Dalek's the great escape game? Oh which is one of those little, you know, those little plastic, there's a ball bearing in it, and you've got to get the ball bearing from one bit to another bit. Yeah. And the ball bearing is the doctor and his companions, and you've got to get them to safety. So yeah, that's ironically when I say £116 on eBay that'll that'll set you back.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:05

Sorry, how much?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:07

£516 for a wee fucking ball bearing maze.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:10

That's insane. That's insane.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:14

Yeah, it's fucking hell.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:17

Alright, well, congratulations, Mark.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:19

Um two for two, fucking hell.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:22

Yeah, you enjoy it. Hope you don't choke at it.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:28

Right, listen correspondence for the Savages, which uh a bit of a theme developing. Uh Andrew Blair says, I listened to the Savages once, probably enjoyed it, but I can't remember why.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:43

Uh Adam Thomas, uh, I must confess that this was a story I never had a strong opinion on. The Target book failed to stick in my mind. I never heard the audio recordings, and whilst I enjoyed the animation, I have so far only watched it once. I'm not sure that the return of these missing episodes uh to the archive would improve its reputation, as apart from Frederick Jaeger's impersonation of Hartnell when Janey was infected by the doctor's personality. I don't think there's much to see here. It all seems a trifle dull, and if the elders are indeed in blackface, as is rumoured, it would seriously diminish the I did not know that. It would seriously diminish in most people's eyes an interesting message on colonial exploitation, but uttered in a monotone. Uh yeah, perfect.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:25

Well, so the blackface thing, the blackface thing is interesting. So um in the documentary on the Blu-ray, they do dig into that. Um, because they this was originally pitched as Doctor Who and the White Savages, um, which obviously has a connotation. And the the idea is that was Ian Stuart Black talking about apartheid because there's a lot of language in this um that that shares some things with language in in South Africa um around segregation. Um so like there's a f is it a free can't remember it is a free state or something like that. I can't remember what they say. Yeah, so there's a line, something like that. Um and so the idea is that oh, is this about you know what would happen if black people were oppressing white people? And Simon Gurrier makes the good point that well, yes, if John Wiles has still been the producer, that's exactly what this would have been like. However, it's a bit more complicated than that, and actually there's this is maybe more about a class struggle, um, and I think that's ultimately what kind of comes out of it. It's more about class, but in terms of the black face, um there I think the general consensus from the actors who can barely remember it. So the woman who plays Flower, um she thinks she was made up with like silver makeup. She's like, I swear we were like in silver makeup. And so the idea is that well was it maybe gold? So Fred because Frederick Yeager's face is quite, you know, coloured in. Um Um and so they think maybe it was gold makeup and maybe they're making a point about how they're the elites and therefore they've got these kind of shiny complexions, you know, to kind of show their status rather than it being blackface. So yeah, it's but nobody can because there's not much production paperwork, there's no way of kind of telling what was on the faces. Because everybody is quite tanned, you know, in terms of the elders and the guards, uh tanned and shiny though.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:28

So the like in the telesnaps is definitely a sheen. So the gold stuff would make more sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:33

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:34

Um okay. I didn't know about the Doctor Who and the white savages thing. Yes. I uh okay, interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:44

Um Dylan Reese, uh The Savages is a drop shoe story that I've seen a rec reconstruction of. I've read the book, I've listened to the audio, I've watched the animation. I remember virtually nothing about it. It's got Hartnell in it, so it can't be that shit.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:00

Uh from Artfully Liam, uh featuring Freddie Jaeger as the first William Hartner cosplayer. Uh Jackie Lane, wondering what action accent she's going to be using this week. Ian Stuart Black clearly rewriting scenes on the hoof, depending on how far along the cantankerous ometer Billy is this week. My abiding memory of this is watching Ian Levine in the front row of the BFI as they previewed episode one before I lost all interest and went for tap ass with Dylan Cregan Reese. Levine has a great career in YouTube reaction videos ahead, if he ever wanted to indulge in such. This, however, was Tedium 101. Ho and Hum next.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:43

Mark Harrison says Doctor Who discovers Doctor Who fans, and they're all fucking pricks. Uh loved the audiobook when I first discovered this, and I hope the animation earns it some wider recognition. Uncommonly good stuff for all three regulars, and ahead of its time on the fallout of the first doctor's researches. Yes, the savages, or as Christopher Barry called it, Doctor Who again. That's what he's written on his notes for uh his director's notes for uh the savages. What? It's just Doctor Who in brackets again. Um it's just great. Yeah, I don't know why everybody like it's it's interesting, isn't it? It's like what i I I suppose it kind of goes to show the m-there's uh there's a bit in the documentary Richard Bignall and Toby Haydock are talking about the savages and talking about how um nothing not a lot exists and so they have to rely on ropey old-I don't think this is the exact words they use, but ropey old anecdotes and a bit of conjecture. And that was a bit like cheeky cunts, doctor that's how Doctor Who conventions make their bread and butter, or ropey ropey anecdotes and you know a bit of uh conjecture. Um but that documentary is really good, I really recommend it. Um but actually I think there's there's a lot in this that is really interesting, and I think um yes, you could argue that Ian Sherid Black just revisits all of these themes in in the Macro Terra. It's all about a colony, a workforce, an another more powerful race kind of feeding off others. But I think there's enough in here that um is actually still interesting. It's interesting Andrew Blair kind of says, you know, like it's a well-meaning attempt at discussing racism, which I think I think there is an element of that. I do subscribe to it more as a class conflict kind of a story. But actually I think it's aged quite well in other ways in in terms of what Mark says about kind of like this is ultimately it's a story about Frederick Jaeger's character having watched the Doctor's Adventures or at least tracked the Doctor's Adventures and heard Legends of the Doctor. This is the kind of first time that the show I guess kind of talks about the legend of the Doctor and kind of creates a kind of mythos uh around the doctor. Um but but Jaeger's kind of seen all these um things as Jeno and uh and he's learned all the wrong lessons from that, and we see that nowadays, don't we? We see that with Elon Musk saying he's a massive Star Trek fan and then completely going against everything that Star Trek stands for and standing for all all the things that Gene Roddenry was completely against, except for maybe you know sexism, but uh so actually watching it I felt God, it's quite it the the there is some stuff here that actually I think is still quite relevant um and still feels yeah, it feels a bit ahead of the time in terms of what it's talking about, in terms of technology, in terms of how technology oppresses people.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:58

Yeah, class, and also I got a lot of big business from it.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:03

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:04

You know, something like Amazon, you know, like the like the this the draining to a husk of all the energy and hope of people who work for you, um, with with no sympathy. Uh there was the felt like there was a lot of that as well. I I honestly um I didn't do a lot of the background on this, so the racism aspect I didn't I didn't get I you know purely on the kind of the actual watching or listening to it. I I guess we should talk about how we how we saw this. I watched some of the animation, wasn't for me, so I reverted to my first option, which is uh which is always the audio CD and then reading the do you remember Doctor Who magazine maybe about 10, maybe 15 years ago, uh reprinted all the Telesnaps in three volumes, three magazine volumes. Um and this is the first time that they reinstate using Telesnaps since the crusade. Yeah, and so I just kind of like I just kind of listened to the soundtrack and looked at tiny little pictures. I mean you can also still get the photo novels that the original cult version of the BBC website has, they're still there, so you can still see that. So you get you get images. There are good there's good reference material for this in order to in order for to look at it. Um and it's Christopher Barry who directed it, so I'm thinking it probably looked like quite a handsome production.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:24

Yeah, I would imagine. So what I did was on the Blu-ray. So I watched when I when I bought the Blu-ray, I watched the animation. Um and it was it I got a good handle on the story. I think it suffers from that thing that a lot of the animations do, where because we only have still images and a script, we don't really know what the actors were doing between delivering their lines, so there's a lot of kind of awkward sort of gaps where there's a lot of rustling on the soundtrack and the the sort of characters kind of moving along the screen. Um but so this time what I really wanted to get a sense of how the thing would have looked. So on the Blu-ray, there is a telesnap reconstruction, like a loose canon. I think it is a loose canon, it it feels loose canon, eh. I don't know if it's like a jugged up loose canon record. Um but you can watch it uh with Peter Davis Peter Davison, that would be interesting with Peter Purvis's uh audio sort of linking narration from the sort of soundtrack recording, basically. Uh and so it was quite magical because they've they've incorporated all the so there's like a few little existing film scraps of episodes three and four.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:41

Oh, like sensor clips.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:42

Yeah, well no, it's not sensor clips, it's a guy in Australia who basically pointed his little eight millimeter camera at the telly while it was on.

SPEAKER_07 1:35:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:52

And captured Steven's goodbye, basically. So you see like there's a I did not know this. So and I didn't know this going into it either. So like whenever the images actually moved, it was like magic comes out. Oh my god, like doc like it's a bit of lost Doctor Who come back to life. So and yeah, they really capture so there's a bit I think it's the bit at the end towards the end of episode, I think it starts, everything starts moving. Uh, I think at this towards the end of episode three where Dodo and Steven get back into the colony to free the doctor, yeah. Um, but then he's got a lot of stuff from episode four. So when the doctor kind of wakes up again and there's like a speech in the cave, he captures a little bit of that. Um he captures a little bit of the doctor and dodo smashing up the laboratory. Um which side note side note, I fucking love that this is a Doctor Who story about, you know, oh it's uh it's the subjugation of a of a lower spe a lower species that aren't really a lower species, they're just they were all equal. Um and and there's brain swapping and life forces being sort of zapped. And how are we gonna how are we gonna reverse all this damage that's been done? Smash up the laboratory, mate. Just fucking smash up the laboratory. More Dr. Houston should just end with just fucking smashes that well, and then it has like a little bit of Stephen's goodbye. So it has Hartnell, it has the Doctor and Stephen shaking hands, and it has Dodo hugging Stephen. So he's managed to capture capture those those little snippets, so it gives you like a little sense.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:33

Oh, interesting. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:36

Wow, I did like this. I did like this. Okay, well, okay. Firstly, I experienced this is one of the very first pieces of Doctor Who I ever owned when I started going to the Edinburgh, the Edinburgh local group, and I can't remember it was like the first convention I ever went to. Um Martin, our friend, would have of his shop Voga as was at the time, would set up a little stall, and at that time he was selling uh you know the BBC audio. So this is probably what 2001, 2002, right? And uh I remember l seeing the cover for the savages and going, I have I've been going, I've been into Doctor Who for a wee bit, but I have never heard that story, never heard of it. I'm gonna have to get it. I remember handing over as it was then, about like 18 quid or something like that, uh, and listening to it and really enjoying it because whilst there is a Doctor Light episode, the episodes that Hartnell is in, he's given a very full-blooded performance, especially in episode two, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:38

Where he figures out what's going on.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:40

Yeah, he figures out what's going on. He's not quite kind of um you know, having smoke blown up his arse, like he suspects something is up, and then he's he's confronting the uh the elders about it. Like I love that, and then also Frederick Yeager doing the Hartnell performance is spot on, like which gives a lot of credence to the fact that like Hartnell's was a performance, it was not always informed by any kind of illness that he may have been sustaining, like a lot of the stuff that we think are the kind of the fruitier aspects, the more improvised aspects of his character, uh are in fact very well-chosen character uh ticks, I guess, you know. Um so I quite like that. Again, there's a Dr. Light episode. I don't think it does a lot for the story, except it builds Steven up as this trustworthy hero that both sides have a grudging respect for, and therefore really sets up it's not necessarily a satisfying goodbye, but I think it is one where a sense of care has been um developed in order to make it uh make it legitimate, you know, as a as an exit.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:50

It's interesting because at the start of the episode it does feel like it's more of a dodo story. Sort of episode one where she's the one that goes off and finds the the lab. Um but then yeah, it recalibrates in episode three because it knows it has to write Stephen out in the end, and I think it feel it feels seamless, like it it doesn't feel clunky, it feels like it's kind of just naturally occurring just due to the the circumstances and I suppose also because they get rid of Dodo in the next episode or the next story, at any rate.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:26

So they thought like, well, why are we building our character up? Who gives a fuck? She's out the door. Although one of the things that I although one of the things I like about Ian Stewart Black, obviously writing this, and then the war machines. I love that there's like the idea of the doctor being developed as this universal celeb. Uh the elders know about him, Wotan knows about him. Like this is I was thinking that this is not the doctor, like it's not the doctor of the odd adventure here and there around the galaxy. People know about him as a as a brand.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:54

Well, yeah, he's kind of uh he he's a personality. Like, I think uh there's something interesting in the fact that in this we have the elders and the doctors kind of sat at the table with the elders talking about science stuff, you know, in part one. Uh and then in in The War Machines, he sort of bustles into this meeting of sort of London scientifically, and he's in com he's comfortable in both of these settings, and that that's such an interesting take on the character that Ian Schrewblack has that I don't think we've really seen up to this point. But actually, I think if you were talking about the idea of the time lords and and that kind of thing, you you kind of do get start to get a sense of the doctor is kind of uh an important and occasionally self-important influential figure here.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:49

Or somebody that revels in it but doesn't necessarily buy into it. You know, I I think we I think in this one particularly we um we do think that the doctor has with all the gifts and the robes that he's been given, that he is somehow being um the wool pulled over his eyes and he's he's not getting it. And obviously that's incorrect, but like you know, the this this idea that he at least knows the language, uh he has the muscle memory of how how do you go to dinner at high table at the college? Yeah, you know, I think it's a minor it's a minor Doctor Who story. Uh what it actually reminded me of was maybe like a season three Star Trek episode. It feels like you could just twitch out the TARDIS crew and then put like the enterprise crew in Yes, yeah, it does feel quite it would be the same sort of thing. Spock is caught with the elders, Kirk is caught with the the savages, the two of them have to work out how to unite these two. You know, there'll be like a there'll be like a big speech or something at the end. It would probably still end with like a smashed up laboratory and Kirk standing there giving a speech about how they're gonna work together. Like it feels it feels very Star Trek.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:56

Just before just before Star Trek existed, as well.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:59

Yeah, of course, yeah. I mean like yeah. Hartnell is good in this. I do enjoy him.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:04

He's brilliant in that, like you say in part two, they are men, human beings, you know, like he's properly this is the moment like you know, I know there's that bit in Twice Upon a Time where the doctor's kind of like horrified at what he's become, he's become this kind of crusader, and he's a bit like, oh Jesus Christ, that's me. But you get that here, and I can see why some fans are a bit like how you know how dare they kind of denigrate William Hartnell? Because yeah, you do and again Ian Stuart Black, you know, the war machines again he he I think he more than anybody um and it's it's it's sad, I suppose, that it comes at the end of Hartnell's crap, but I think he kind of goes, Oh Hartnell's the hero here the doctor's the hero, it's not about Steven, it's not about Dodo, the doctor is the hero because he's the kind of righteous figure in in part two, and he's the guy staring down the lens of the camera in the end of part three of the war machines, you know, it's that's your hero. Um, and that big confrontation he has with Jano, you know, where Jano's like, oh progress is based on exploitation. I mean, how many times have we fucking heard that recently? You know, billionaire cross and all that kind of thing. But yeah, all all that stuff's really, really good. That's the doctor as a kind of moral figure and a hero figure. Um I I would say probably for the I mean I I suppose Dalek's Master Plan there's a bit of that. He is he is kind of taking on the kind of role, but I I feel like he's more of a reluctant hero in in Dalit's Master Plan. He's like, I'm I'm the guy that has to do this. Whereas I think in the Savages he's doing it. It is out of righteousness and and a moral stance and an objection to kind of how these guys are running our planet.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:04

Yeah, he's he's disgusted by what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:06

We've watched your travels and oh we think you're brilliant. Anyway, this is what we do to the the other people on our planet. And he's like, you fucking think you think I would approve of that? You think you know you you want me to be part of that? How fucking dare you.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:25

That is interesting. Was it Mark Harrison that said it? Yeah, that Doctor Who meets Doctor Who fans for like the first ever time. Yeah, there's something they they should have made more of that, but yeah, the idea that they followed his adventures and learned not a fucking thing. Or I don't but and also it's quite it seems like quite a modern storytelling device to be like, okay, well, they're defeated because the the the conscience, the the um the morals, the life force of the doctor physically changes people. Like that feels like something that's out of a Moffat script.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:59

Yes. Oh god, yeah. I mean, there's so many Moffat scripts of that, isn't there?

SPEAKER_04 1:46:03

Uh I'm not sure why it gets the reputation of well, okay, I do. If there's some times where it does feel like just a bit of a runaround.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:10

I think part three can be quite is quite part three, I suppose. You know, there's a lot of kind of corridor stuff and caves.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:18

Tell you what, it's the citizen cane of Doctor Who.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:23

By which I mean at the time it probably looked like something new. But it has since been the model for how to do Doctor Who in the 60s and into the 70s, that there's a lot of stuff about it which we utterly take for granted, which seem really cliched, even though this was like the first one. There's the possibility that this is something quite special if we put a particular filter on it, if we view it in a certain way.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:53

And I always try and do that. I think Yeah, you're right. Sometimes when it is stuff that that has been so aped, you know, further down the line, it is hard to go back and see see it for the kind of original thing. I mean Citizen Kane does not have that problem, how dare you? Uh but yes, but I also see exactly what I think anyone who I see exactly what you mean.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:16

I think anybody who watches Citizen Kane expects to see the greatest cinematic experience they've ever had. It's very hard to kind of like sift away all the kind of you know, get through the archaeology to find the original version of the thing, you know. So yeah, I would definitely like to see it. There are there are there are I mean, like we've got Dalek Master Plan back a couple of episodes. I I've always wanted stuff like The Savages and stuff like The Smugglers back before Dalek. I think we've got an idea of what Dalek's Master Plan is like, and actually, it's quite rewarding just listening to it as a soundtrack. I think stuff like this, I'd really like to see it. And I don't think the animation particularly s uh scratches that itch.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:58

No, it doesn't. If anything, actually, the the telesnap reconstruction was more enjoyable for me, and I don't I'm not a big fan of the telesnaps, but I was surprised actually by how much visuals there were because I I think I was under the impression that there wasn't many telesnaps of it. But actually there's there is quite a lot. It was funny, I was watching it one morning before work and Amy was like, Like, are all of you this autistic? I was like, What do you mean? And she's like, Well, you know, like you're watching just still images of a thing that that doesn't exist anymore. Uh narrated by a guy just making up a story. I was like, he's not making up a story, like it's it's based on the script that exists because well that's what they tell you. I was like, no, it's a thing. However, it does it I do think like it doesn't always happen with telesnaps, but for some reason with the savages, I don't know if it's Pervis's linking narration, I don't know if it's the little magic moments where the images start moving. I got to actually see like little little bits of footage from it. But it did give me like a sense of what this would look like. And I kind of and it was really enticing, you know. It's really I'm like, I'm re Oh man, like if if film is fabulous tomorrow were to be like, We found the savages all four episodes, I'd be queuing up for the iPlayer. I don't know how we do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:24

Yeah, I think it would have the sort of reappraisal that enemy of the world definitely got. Oh well, okay. I mean, shall we bring it in for performances and and scenes?

SPEAKER_01 1:49:34

Yeah, yeah. Um performances, I think it is Frederick Yeager. I mean Hartnell's brilliant as well, but I think it is um he's so good. Like he's a good he's quite slimy and you know, like at the start, and then he's like a proper doctor. He gets such a good arc J No in this. Yeah. He's a proper crawler at the start, then he's a proper evil Son of a bitch. And then he gets changed, and he's a more sympathetic character because he's had his eyes open by the doctor.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:09

Yeah. It's like an episode of Undercover Boss where uh where the boss comes down, he's got a big mustache on, so nobody recognises him, learns about the lives of the people that he employs, and he's like, Oh fuck, I shouldn't be sucking their life force out like that. I should probably give them a raise, you know, like a Christmas party, that kind of stuff. It's like I I love Frederick Yeager.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:34

I love the idea that Steven's now in charge of just organising the Christmas parties, just you know, he's the he's the fucking morale officer.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:42

Yeah, well, he's yeah, he's the union rep for uh for this big this big stellar business that has now been created. Um yeah, I love Frederick Yeager in this as well, and uh I love Hartnell. Yeah, there's this idea that it's a kind of march towards the grave of the latter half of series three, and it's not it's when he gets a chance to shine, he fucking shines.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:08

Because we said that when we did the smugglers all those years ago, like that's his penultimate story, and he's on fire throughout that.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:15

Yeah, he is, yeah. I scenes-wise, I love that first scene where ye um where um Jano is it with Captain Edal where he's given the Hartnell performance and then catches himself.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:26

Yes, yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:28

That's really good. And then like, yeah, I thought that that's a great one.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:31

And um I like Hartnell and the guard, where he's like, Well, I think you're rather subhuman, you know, all that that kind of stuff, that's really good.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:39

I love that um in episode one, episode two, when Dodo and Steven are paired off with the two with it young people of the colony.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:49

I mean, I get Dodo, but like really Peter Purvis, like I don't you know, he was obviously a young man, but I never forgot him as like like as I as a young character.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:00

He was 26 as fast as Stephen. Yeah. So I mean it's not as if he's like yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:06

I feel like Ian Ian was probably a younger, seeming character than Stephen was.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:15

One of my favourite bits in The Savages is in that, which is basically Oh yeah, we could go anywhere we like. Not there though. Don't don't go don't go down that corridor.

SPEAKER_07 1:52:27

Don't go there.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:28

Anywhere else. Anywhere else, absolutely fine. Don't go down there. That's such classic Doctor Who fucking dialogue. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:37

What's the what's the R Vibbot?

SPEAKER_01 1:52:39

Oh my gosh has so regulating vibrator or something like that. So let me tell you something about this. The reacting vibrator.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:48

Reacting vibrator.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:49

Uh in the script, it is just described as the RV. And then there's like a blank. And Hartnell ad lib the guess is that Hartnell ad-libbed reacting vibrator. The kinky devil. Right. Because when Ian Stewart Black comes to novelise it, uh, there's no mention of the reacting vibrator or even the RV, it's just the doctor's calculator.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:17

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:18

That's what he's taken with them.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:20

Or was he just wandering about with a calculator from the other question?

SPEAKER_01 1:53:25

God knows, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:32

I feel like this has been uh a lighter uh tonic to the dot and bubble chat. So I'm I'm glad that we did pair it with the savages. I quite like it. Take it or leave it. I mean, like nobody is offended by it.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:46

No. Until it's returned to be like, oh no, it is blackface! Oh no, oh no.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:52

Oh well. That and Marco Polo. What do we have next? There's rogue, isn't it? What are we doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:54:00

What is rogue? It's a costume party, there's death, destruction, it's black orchids. Because there's also costume party, and there's cricket and a buffy and dancing.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:12

Oh well, black orchid it is then perfect.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:15

Um alright, well, listen, uh, genuinely thank you for everybody who sent in listener correspondence. I know it's been tougher to do this since uh we all fled X Twitter, and we haven't quite found that kind of single cohesive uh site to meet up on again. But uh thank you very much for the things on Instagram, everyone who took part. It genuinely is meaningful, we appreciate it. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:41

And and actually, genuinely, because I think it's the first one we've recorded since the episode episodes have started going out. It's been really nice to hear people say that they're glad to have us back and that they've enjoyed the episodes and stuff. So thanks makes me think we should go away more often.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:00

By the time this goes out, the opinion may have changed, so we'll we'll see if this stays in the edit. But we at least appreciate you listening. Thank you very much. Um, all right. Well, next time, yeah, it's gonna be Rogue and Black Orchid. Um, I've been Ben.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:16

I've been Mark, and he has been Kath McCullough.