Abba's Heart Book Study Ch: 13 & 14 Empowered to Serve and Walking in Forgiveness

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Jacqueline: So welcome everyone to week five of our Abba's Heart Book Study that we've been doing this summer. It's just been so much fun and such a blessing to  take a deep dive into the book Abba's Heart. And if you have not read it and haven't been able to join us in past episodes, don't turn off this podcast.

You will still be so blessed. Today we're going to be talking about chapters 13 and 14- "Empowered to Serve" and "Walking in Forgiveness." Today I'm here with Janet and Jenn Lozano, and I have great expectation for some really beautiful conversations, so thank you Lord. We are at the end of June, and summer is in full swing.

How are you guys? Anything exciting going on?

Jenn: I have two kids at overnight camp right now. Woohoo. And because two adult "large" children came home from college, it's nice to have a little breathing space in our house again.

Jacqueline: That's awesome. That's really great.

Jenn: I don't have to double our recipes at dinner. It's, so far it's, it's just really nice. I miss them, but they're having a blast, so it's, it's  nice. The camp is called Summer's Best Two Weeks, and at home we're also referring to it as Summer's Best Two Weeks.

Jacqueline: It's so fun to mix it up, like you swapped out the little kids for the big kids and yeah, how great is that?

Jenn: So great. So mom, what's happening in your summer?

Janet: Well, our summer started out with a wonderful celebration of our 50th Anniversary, and since then we had a few out of town family guests stay with us for a few days.  Currently I have a nephew on my side of the family stay with us for several days, so I feel like my summer has begun with a lot of hosting.

Yes. The opposite of you, Jenn. I'm cooking more than I usually do, but it's been wonderful just to have time to connect with family members  and continue to celebrate what God has done in our lives over the past 50 years that Neal and I have been married.

Jacqueline: Wow. And for those of you who have not been a guest in Janet's house for dinner or overnight, she is the Hostess with the Mostess. So she's going all out for her guests. We know that for sure.

Jenn: Chocolate's on the pillow. Yeah, exactly. Like we're going high end.

Jacqueline: It's a real gift that she has. So speaking of gifts, I feel like these two chapters are really just gifts to me and to all of us listening. Chapter 13 is about humility and just how Jesus came to serve us in humility.

Then chapter 14 talks about forgiveness.  Humility and forgiveness are central themes, they're pillars of our faith. It's sort of like what Jesus taught us to be humble and walk in forgiveness. But I love how he not only led by example and teaches us, but that God equips us and changes us and transforms us so that humility and forgiveness can become part of our everyday walk.

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Release: June 2023
Music by Christian Harper
Artwork by Rosemary Strohm at Command-S

Transcript

Jacqueline: So welcome everyone to week five of our Abba's Heart Book Study that we've been doing this summer. It's just been so much fun and such a blessing to  take a deep dive into the book Abba's Heart. And if you have not read it and haven't been able to join us in past episodes, don't turn off this podcast.

You will still be so blessed. Today we're going to be talking about chapters 13 and 14- Empowered to Serve and Walking in Forgiveness. Today I'm here with Janet and Jenn Lozano, and I have great expectation for some really beautiful conversations, so thank you Lord. We are at the end of June, and summer is in full swing.

How are you guys? Anything exciting going on?

Jenn: I have two kids at overnight camp right now. Woohoo. And because two adult "large" children came home from college, it's nice to have a little breathing space in our house again.

Jacqueline: That's awesome. That's really great.

Jenn: I don't have to double our recipes at dinner.

It's, so far it's, it's just really nice. I miss them, but they're having a blast, so it's, it's  nice. The camp is called Summer's Best Two Weeks, and at home we're also referring to it as Summer's Best Two Weeks.

Jacqueline: Great. It's so fun to mix it up, like you swapped out the little kids for the big kids and yeah, how great is that?

Jenn: Yeah, so great. So mom, what's happening in your summer?

Janet: Well, our summer started out with a wonderful celebration of our 50th Anniversary, and since then we had a few out of town family guests stay with us for a few days.  Currently I have a nephew on my side of the family stay with us for several days, so I feel like my summer has begun with a lot of hosting.

Yes. The opposite of you, Jenn. I'm cooking more than I usually do, but it's been wonderful just to have time to connect with family members  and continue to celebrate what God has done in our lives over the past 50 years that Neal and I have been married.

Jacqueline: Wow. And for those of you who have not been a guest in Janet's house for dinner or overnight, she is the Hostess with the Mostess. So she's going all out for her guests. We know that for sure.

Jenn: Chocolate's on the pillow. Yeah, exactly. Like we're talking high end.

Jacqueline: It's a real gift that she has. So speaking of gifts, I feel like these two chapters are really just gifts to me and to all of us listening. Chapter 13 is about humility and just how Jesus came to serve us in humility.

And then chapter 14 talks about forgiveness. And, you know, humility and forgiveness are really central themes; they're pillars of our faith. It's sort of like Jesus taught us to be humble and walk in forgiveness. But I love how he not only led by example and teaches us, but that God equips us and changes us and transforms us so that humility and forgiveness can become part of our everyday walk.

So that's really my hope and prayer for all of us listening today, that we would be moved, that our hearts would be pierced by something, one of the thoughts or reflections, and that we would really grow in humility and forgiveness today. So to just start us off chapter 13, I really liked the quote at the beginning of the chapter by Ronald Olheiser from Sacred Fire. So I'm just gonna read that real quickly and then invite these ladies to share some reflections.

Chapter 13- "Mature discipleship begins, whether we are explicitly conscious of this or not, when we begin living more for others than for ourselves." That's just really powerful.

So ladies, any thoughts on that quote or just even the beginning of the chapter?

Janet: Yeah, I feel like there is so much in that one quote, but living more for others than ourselves is the very nature of who Jesus is, who God the Father is.  And so, It led me to just reflecting on how God the Father out of his compassion for us and in humility, did the most incredible thing in sending his Son.

So that we might come back to him as his children. It led me to think about a sharing that my son Joseph did when we had this celebration for our 50th anniversary. He was honoring his dad. So I'd just like to read a little bit of this honoring that Joseph did.

He said, "Dad, Neal is your chosen name.

The name you go by means a passionate champion. You are a passionate champion, but I want to honor you today with a bit of alliteration, Neal with a K. I remember being in church and no matter how much your back hurts, you would not allow your or our butts to rest on a pew behind us. We knelt. You first knelt before God and committed your life to him as a young man.

Then you knelt before mom and committed your life to her when you asked her to marry you. You bent your knee when your teenage son hated you for whatever reason. I can't remember, and you smiled back at him. In our living room, we have a reproduction of Rembrandt's painting of the younger brother being embraced by the father.

The most striking thing in that painting for me is the posture of the father. He bends down for this reason.

Every day when I drop Wills off at school, I get down on my 40 year old knees no matter how they feel that day, and I hug him every single day. When I pick up Hugo from school, he runs ecstatically across the playground, and I get down on one knee to embrace him.

I am a passionate chap for kneeling because of you."

So Joseph shared this at our 50th celebration. The following day was Father's Day and he was asked to share this at the end of mass. So Joseph got up and was speaking before a congregation that it was very obvious that most of the families there probably did not have a dad.

And so he was honoring all of the father figures in church that day. And he said he would do it by sharing what I just shared with them.  Because he said," I want to honor you by honoring my father. " And we were sitting in the front row, and when Joseph finished what he had to say, Neal stood up and went over to Joe and embraced him.

And it was such a moment of just, of Joseph speaking. In that honoring about what it means to be a father and speaking about the very nature of God the Father, and then the demonstration of it when Neal got up and hugged him. I'm just really moved with emotion right now, but just such an honoring not only of the Fathers that were there, but of God the Father of speaking about who he is, particularly his humility as he bends himself and kneels down to us when we need to know his love and his forgiveness.

Jenn: Mic drop.

Jacqueline: Well, that's it folks.

Jenn: Podcast done. What I'm thinking right now is all the beautiful things that you pointed out, Mom, but also Joe speaking that over the congregation and just how what Jesus demonstrated for dad, and then Dad demonstrated for Joe, and then Joe speaking it out over this congregation.

It goes on. Yes. You know, and so that's not quite in the chapter, but just how it continues, you know, and just speaking that blessing over everyone in that church actually at that moment, there's just something so powerful.

Jacqueine: Yeah, and the thought I had when you were saying that Jenn was this idea that Joe had in his heart to express his heart of gratitude for his dad turned into something so much bigger than he expected, and there was an expression of humility in not only sharing it to the people at the celebration, but then being able to say yes and share that in front of a congregation.

Just our yes to the Lord and making our ourselves available and then expressing humility can just go on, like you said, like the littlest things can have such big impact. I was thinking about that there's a way that I think one of the questions in the Study Guide about God's humility and how his authority is humble, that one of the questions is, "How does humility liberate us?"

And I'm just thinking Joe kind of explained that Neal's humility was liberating. Then Joe's humility in expressing it, that was liberating too. So there's something really connected that I just wanna think about that.

Jenn: To tie it back to the chapter too, one thing I loved about this chapter is Neal and Matt point out that they're talking about God's authority and they kind of define the authority of the Father as compassionate and humble.  I remember that first time I read that in the book, like just being blown away.

Authority sometimes has a bad connotation, you know, attached to it. Oh, I have to listen to the authorities and do what the authority says, but God the Father's authority is compassionate and it's humble. How beautiful. God is, you know, that blows my mind. And of course, Joe sharing really encapsulated the compassion and the humility of a father.

Jacqueline: So, so well, it's awesome. Years ago, I think I gave a talk at a women's retreat on what God was teaching me about light. And when light bends is when you see the fullness of the rainbow, like all the colors that are hidden in light and it takes bending to reveal the beauty. Mm. And so, Here Janet brought up the kneel and there was a way that in the kneeling something about God's beauty was expressed, you know, to Neal was on his children.

And that it is in taking that posture of kneeling that God is revealed to others in a more beautiful way.  I still want to do more research on light and understanding the colors of the rainbow and how and when works and why it is. You know, I think the science behind it is probably really cool. But I just have often thought to myself in moments of not feeling humble or not wanting to walk in humility, particularly in marriage, I think it can be really challenging.

I just have thought about, I need to bend here. There's nothing wrong with bending. You know, and then God can reveal himself however he wants to.

Jenn: Yeah, it's funny, we talk about the Father bending and bending low, but, and maybe the podcast all start to blend together, so maybe I've mentioned this before about Jesus, but Jesus modeled bending by taking on humanity. You know, and I just love to think about that sometimes, like, Jesus got headaches, he had stomach pain and he didn't have 40 year old knees, but even at 33, our knees can start to get a little creaky, you know? And so I just, yeah, he was, God, he didn't need to do that you know, but he did. He did. He bent low for us.

Janet: Yeah, what Jesus did was in obedience, and so that was one of the questions in this chapter about authority. So Jesus gained authority by being obedient to the Father, so then he walked in the Father's authority. In the chapter, it talks about how Jesus performed miracles, and a lot of times it was related to his compassion and so there's just this link between how the compassion and humility allowed Jesus to walk in his authority. And then I was thinking about how the Holy Spirit was sent to us. Mm-hmm. That was the same reason so that we could walk in that obedience and that humility, and therefore we have that authority as well.

As God's children to be vessels for healing and for for forgiveness

Jacqueline: Because it was his expression of the power of God, the miracles that he performed. It was never about him. It was always about the person who needed mercy and compassion. And I think that's what we all as Christians have to keep in our in the front of our minds, that we have been given the Holy Spirit.

We've been given gifts to use and when we are not making this about ourselves and trusting in our own strengths, but we are really, truly for the other person in front of us and have the compassionate heart that God can give us, then we don't, well gosh, we can just expect God to do great things, and he does.

You know, it's just this posture and this mindset, and I wanna grow more in that. You know, I'm so struck by that today. 

Janet:  Yeah, I, there is a moment in just about every ministry session that I've ever done using the keys, that I am just so aware of what God is doing in that moment for that person who's receiving that really has nothing to do with how good I'm doing ministry.

Amen. It has everything to do with God's broken heart for his child and wanting to use me or someone else to just cooperate with his power to see the person set free. It just, it just is overwhelming sometimes. That's just such a reminder that it's not something you can do. It's only God's power and his compassion through us.

I wrote down a quote, an answer to that question, how does humility liberate us? One of the quotes in the book, Neil says, humility allows us to expand the scope of whom. How often and how mercifully we will serve. How often, and how mercifully, yeah. Wow. Hmm. So it makes me feel like the more we can humbly serve, the more God's going to put people us.

Yeah. To serve. Wow. And then the next quote, it also enables those, we love to see the father's heart and give him glory again, all about bringing them into that relationship. Father.

Jacqueline: Sitting here with Jen and Janet struck by the, one of the other questions in the study guide, which we've sort of touched on, but I just really want to ask, how has God increased your compassion for others?

Because I just really see that gift in both Jen and Janet, just this godly compassion, something that  describes you. And if I  had three words to choose,  I would definitely  pick compassion for both of you. Sometimes when I come to work and I start talking to Jen,n I think, wait a second, she's just so compassionate about all the nuances of life and I don't know.  And I mean, Janet, I've seen you cry for people and weep over them. So I mean, your compassion runs so deep, but how would you say God has increased your compassion for others? Is there ever a time or a situation where you just really knew it was God doing it in you?

Janet: Well, I think one of the ways that God has increased my compassion for others, what came to my mind when you were asking that question, Jacqueline, is my own brokenness. And I remember a time where I had seen a pattern of weakness, brokenness, sin in my life, in the way I was responding to things. And I remember feeling so broken and kneeling  on my living room floor and just saying to God, you know, I kind of don't know who I am without this stuff.

Mm-hmm. You know, and God just coming to me and ministering to me out of my brokenness. And so I think God has increased my compassion for others because in my own brokenness, I learned the Father's heart and his compassion for me.  And so now when I, you know, I listen to a lot of really hard stories, other people's stories, and I think every story that I hear, if I hear it through the father's heart for a person. It   increases my compassion even more.

Jenn: Wow. Yeah. I say yes and amen to that. Yeah. I think I kind of define myself as a runner and so in many areas. Um, and so I am always blown away by the fact that as many times as I've run away from God, he's come after me, and so just experiencing his love.

And his pursuit enables me to see that that's how he sees all of his children. Amen. So yes and amen to that mom. That's really good.

Jacqueline: I think that sort of leads me to thinking about our, the next chapter because that's on forgiveness and it, in as much as we have experienced the compassion of the Lord and then are moved to in turn be compassionate, it's really in.

Understanding and accepting the forgiveness that God has given us, which enables us to really, truly forgive. So chapter 14 is about forgiveness. Forgiveness is a word that you've either heard a lot and think you're walking in and probably are, or you're new to the idea and concept of forgiveness. But either way, I love the way that Neil and.

In our ministry, um, particularly in our Freedom and Christ Conference has really dug a little deep in under, in understanding some of the obstacles that people have to forgiveness and kind of revealing, and particularly this chapter about how to really like look for when is forgiveness complete. And I love the way that this chapter talks about complete forgiveness.

I think forgiveness can sometimes be really easy, but more often than not, forgiveness is very hard. The things that often really need to be forgiven, people that need to be forgiven, who God is calling us to forgive, are really usually the ones where forgiveness is difficult. Our family right now is facing a challenging time with a very ill parent, and it's an opportunity for lots of family issues to come to the surface and in interacting with extended family, it's just really clear that there's new opportunities to go deeper in forgiveness, and it's becoming so clear how hard that is.

So aside from the grace of God and a renewed understanding of what I have been forgiven, it's hard to choose that forgiveness and to speak it out loud in the beginning of Chapter 14 though, and I'm not gonna read it, but Neal talks about the way of the father is forgiveness. And it's like we've read this and heard that in, unless we forgive others, we will not be forgiven.

And that just sounds like. Wow, that's a really harsh perspective. You know, I'm not gonna forgive you if you don't forgive others, but it's, it's because he can't, we block ourselves off from his, his mercy when we have a, that shield up that wall up.

Jenn: Yeah. I like, that's, it's a fill in the blank at the start of the study guide for chapter 14.

It says, you know, the blank is forgiveness is the way of the Father, it's the way he provided for us. Yeah. I just today just spent some time thinking about, Forgiveness being the way that he provided for us and just, I don't know how significant that is. And also like, I don't know, I was thinking about when, I guess the best way to articulate it, like I'm thinking about on a mountain when a, a trickle of water starts to create a crevice, you know, in the mountain and then it gets bigger and bigger and eventually probably becomes a river, you know, or whatever, down the mountain.

And just thinking about how. It gets easier, you know, once that path has been carved out. And so just in thinking, going back to the idea that it's the way of the father, it is really difficult and there's been grievances that have occurred in our lives that are so difficult to forgive. But as we start to understand who the father is and experiences love, We wanna walk in his way, and it's also a little bit of a muscle, so I've gotten better at it.

Yes. You know, like that path has been carved, so I've gotten better at it as I've practiced it. Yes. You know? Yes. So, sorry, I don't know if that took it in a different direction than you. No. You were thinking Jacqueline, but. No, that's great. I love that image because we've had so much rain here. Our, uh, the trickle, I live on a hill and, um, there's some new paths in people's yards, but it's such a great image because it's, that's exactly what God does.

The more we walk in forgiveness and his grace gets bigger too. Yeah. It just gets bigger. Yeah. Well, one quote from the book you mentioned this, Jacqueline, that ultimately when we refuse to forgive others, we create a block in ourselves to receiving God's forgiveness. And it goes on to say, so when we do that, we are rejecting Jesus.

Mm-hmm. Because he's God's forgiveness. Mm-hmm.

Janet: And boy, that just really hit me how powerful in a negative sense unforgiveness is. Mm-hmm. You know that we are really rejecting this amazing gift that the Father has given us in Jesus. And it also says we are choosing to remain orphans that we are when we won't forgive, we're choosing isolation and you know, our sin, our resentment, our bitterness, whatever.

So we're cutting ourselves off from the love of the Father and choosing to be an orphan. Wow. Not know that we're part of his family again. Just power of that just really, really struck me.

Jacqueline: That makes me think, and this is sort of jumping toward the end of chapter 14, but that's the beauty of book studies conversations.

You can go back and forth. Towards the end of the chapter, Neal in Includes a story, a testimony of a woman who forgave her stepfather for abuse and the grace and the freedom that that forgiveness gave her for the rest of her life and, and continues to give her. In contrast, her brother, who also experienced abuse from the stepfather, was not able to forgive.

I'm just going to read a tiny little bit of this testimony because it really struck me when I was getting ready for today's podcast. And she said, I guess her grandmother was leading her through forgiveness -

"She asked if someday I could forgive my stepfather. Only by the grace of God I forgave him that day.

I really did. So much was lifted off me that I knew I was free. My brother is a different story. No one really knew until later the full extent of the abuse that he had withstood. Therefore, he was not ministered to as I was, and consequently, he did not forgive and I see the effects on his life. He does not believe in God."

And then it goes on and on. It's just,  this kind of block that this brother has between himself and the Lord. Her brother was just not able to, and I think is still not able to, walk in forgiveness. And just that contrast really struck me that we have set before us life and death in a way.

And like choosing unforgiveness is really choosing to be orphans and not being able to walk in freedom throughout life.

So, is there ever a time that you can recall even more recently that forgiveness was really hard for you or where forgiveness needed to become more complete, you know, later on in life?  

Janet:  I recently struggled to forgive a family member and as I went through the struggle knowing I needed to forgive and going before the Lord and, and wanting the grace and asking for the grace. I realize that for me, sometimes I can hold onto things with resentment that have been done, not maybe particularly to me, but to someone.

Mm-hmm. I love and care for, and that's what this situation was like. We define forgiveness. Saying forgiving means we give up the right to hold the offense. And in my struggle in this particular instance, I came to realize that I was. Holding onto that. Right. But so and so did this to, to my loved one.

Mm-hmm. You know, I have a right to hold onto that. And it wasn't till I saw that, that I was like, yeah, I'm holding onto unforgiveness. You know, and it's like another part of our teaching on forgiveness. Neil always, you know, talks about how from the cross, in his greatest suffering, probably in his greatest moment of feeling abandoned, Jesus had said, father, forgive them.

Or they do not know what they're doing. And I've come to realize that. And what we say about forgiveness is that, you know, we know enough to be responsible, but most times we don't really know mm-hmm. The depth of the harm that we are doing when we don't forgive. And so I came to realize that it, it was like I was saying, oh, this person knows what they were doing, you know?

Right. Like I, I was refusing to. To have a heart of compassion that would understand what that person is going through. To the extent that I don't think they really know how they've hurt me or hurt this person. I love or hurt God the father. And so from that place, I can forgive. That's really big. Yeah.

Yeah, it is. Knowing that, that that's the place that we have to have to go to and maybe a deception. I, I know that was in within me that. Maybe for those of you listening, there's some of you that have the same thing. Ah, yeah. In the depths of my heart, I think they really knew what they were doing. Mm-hmm.

And therefore I have a right to hold onto this. Mm-hmm.

Jacqueline: That's just a deception that just makes me think of, I mentioned it beginning of the podcast and you should really check out the Forgiveness Talk in our Freedom in Christ series to get fuller teaching on this. But, In that talk and in this invis heart, you know, Neil talks about deceptions and obstacles to keep us from forgiving.

And Janet just touched on one, and I think about a significant obstacle to forgiving for me that I've shared a number of times, but it was really big, was minimization, like sort of minimizing what happened. I, I tend to like to gloss over negative feelings and move on quickly from things and so, I faced a time in my early walk with the Lord in college where I really had to kinda look at some of the, um, things that had happened in my childhood and, and particularly in my relationship with my dad, and I had really minimized some of his behaviors.

My dad was great and I love him, but both my parents had, they were broken, so I was able to, with the help of a. Safe person to talk to and get pray with, which I highly recommend. Neil talks about finding someone that you can tell your story to and really talking about what happened and then saying out loud in the presence of another person in the name of Jesus, I forgive.

Even before Unbound was a thing that was like a tool that we got here in pre, uh, heart of the Father ministry, time of, of learning about forgiveness and how powerful to really measure and speak out loud what I was forgiving. So sort of the a different obstacle, forgiveness can be minimizing it, but how much more powerful and that sense of completion.

And I, I really noticed a change in my relationship with my dad then I sort of didn't. Hold back in the same way. There was a level of, of a heart openness toward him that I hadn't had in a long time. So that was really powerful for me.

Jenn: I'm thinking about, you mentioned for some people it's a process and I'm thinking about, you know, forgiving my own dad and having, I shared on, I think I, the podcast where I give my testimony, I shared about my first unbound experience with Neil and Janet.

And really forgiving my dad for not speaking blessing over me and how significant that was. But I was young, you know, I think I was 24 at the time, and of course I can look back on this now, but it was a process and probably I'd peeled back a layer, you know? Mm-hmm. But also, I think some of it was maturity and understanding, you know, like as I matured a little bit more, And became a mom, and all of those things lived more life.

Mm-hmm. Like I started to see and understand my own junk a little bit more and started to look like, okay, where is my junk coming from and what is this? And so of course, that leads you back to unbound and needing to forgive again. And so going through forgiveness with my dad again and forgiving him maybe.

For some slightly different things, but I think I could say that that was a time when it was more of a process for me.

Jacqueline: Yes. You know, that's really important. I love that you said that, cuz that's really more often what forgiveness is, is really entails. Yeah. It's so good. Jen, I just love this quote. When we forgive, we say yes to becoming a reflection of our father.

Wow. That's what I want. Yeah. Amen. There's another quote, um, towards the end of the chapter where Neil is sharing about, you know, and Jacqueline, you kind of alluded to this when you opened the chapter, but you know, knowing whether the forgiveness is complete. And Neal says how he shares about how he prayed blessing over his, his siblings.

And he wrote, if I spend my time longing for someone else's blessing, I will have closed my heart to what God has reserved for me. I think that also is similar to what Janet was saying about choosing forgiveness and not choosing forgiveness. Like are we remaining open and soft? Mm-hmm. To what the Lord has and as we do that we can be a reflection of him, you know, to receive what he has and to be a, reflect him open, soft kneeling, you know, just these words to hang onto.

Jacqueline: So we're really good. So let's just, uh, take those thoughts and close in some prayer for a moment. I just feel like that image of being a reflection is just so much of a gift in this conversation for me, I want to be a reflection the Lord. So Father, we just thank you for. Humbling yourself and coming and forgiving us and for providing your Holy Spirit that can transform us to walk in humility and forgiveness.

I just thank you for all the, the thoughts and reflections that you brought to our minds and hearts today, and I, I ask for all of those listening that they would know, an action item, of course, a step to take in, in particularly forgiveness, would help us to all say yes to today, to deeper forgiveness and become more of a reflection of you.

We just thank you so much, Lord for your grace. Amen. Amen. Well, thank you all for joining us. We have one more week next week finish up our Abbas Heart book study. It's gonna be great. And if you've missed some of these other episodes, go, go back and listen to 'em. And we just wanna, um, thank you for all of those who have given to make this podcast continue.

And if you'd like to support this mission, there's a donate button in the show notes if you have a great week. God bless. Bye-bye.